UZBEKSKIY NAROD NE GOTOV K DEMOKRATII!

[_Charosoy_]

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:)


:)

[Siege]

Может мы не готовы и к хорошей жизни?!
:(

Что за глупый вопрос ?!

С уважением!

P.S. Пишите кириллицей!

[_Charosoy_]

????? ?? ?? ?????? ? ? ??????? ??????!
:(

??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?!

? ?????????!

P.S. ?????? ??????????!

Uvajaemiy SIEGE.. ya ne dumayu chto eto glupiy vopros..Dlya kajdogo ponyatiye demokratiya zvuchit po svoyemu..Ti sprosi u nemtsa i turka i u ruskogo i u arabov chto takoye demokratiya i kakuyu ti demokratiyu hochesh.. oni tebe obyasnyat posvoyemu po svoim ponyatkam .. i ti poluchish 4 raznih otveta kotoroye ne podhodyat drug drugu..
Kajdaya strana ispolzuyet demokratiyu kak eto podhodit ego narodu. i mentalitetu etogo naroda... otchego i izhodilsya moy vopros
s uvajeniyem
charosoy

[Kolobok]

Privet
Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya..
Excuse me :!: Do you have any idea,what r u talking about? What do u mean,Uzbek nation is not ready yet? Maybe u r not ready,but Uzbek youth is ready! I'm sure every single reader of this post wherever he/she is agrees with me.Maybe our parents will never learn what democrasy is,coz of USSR's influence,but not we.How can u live without believe to the future?
KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????
& What is that supposed 2 mean? What kind of Democrasy do you know?
Looking forward for ur reply.
Sencerely
Kolobo4ek ;)

[noodles]

Charoshon, there's no opportunity to realize democracy in Uzb! but, we're ready! for example am ready for that! i can surely realize my rights and obligations...if there's an opportunity for that..that's why think over...

[hmm]

Charos, you are ought to be lynched for your statement!!!!!! :snipersmile: Did you guys know that in China, if you are sentenced the death penalty, you have to pay for the bullets?

[Realistic Patriot]

Guys, in a way I understand what the author ment. Kakov procent ispolzovaniya interneta v Uzbekistane? kakov procent of properly educated population? U guys are judging by urself, uchites ili v evrope, ili samostoyatelno mozgov nabralis v stolice. No Tashkent eto ne edinstvennii gorod v Uzbekistane, a za ego predelami deti v shkolu ne hodyat, uchebnikov net, hakimi obsessed with cleaning up, ili uchitelya s togorashkami po svadbam da po challaram rosxajivayut vmesto urokov. V Samarkande deti za uchebnuyu nedelyu dnya 3-4 doljni vihodit na ulici podmetat vmesto realnoi uchebi. I eto uje ne govorya o shiroko izvestnoi probleme vigona detei na polya. It doesn't imply that we don't need democracy, it means that by now (thx God it is 11 years since adoption of independence) ppl were supposed to know and well educated about their free choice and that above obligations they have rights and all of them were born equal. But in our life it is so unrealistic! First steps to take by our "democratic" government is to educate ppl not by drilling "Po puti uglubleniya ekonomicheskih reform" but by providing sufficient education and giving them a chance to draw conclusions about what is going on nezavisimo ot navyazivannoi gosudarstvennoi tsenzuri. And someone blamed communism for our present unability to be democratic...excuse me, but Uzbekistan had 11 years to change....it did not. So the current system is as much to blame as communistic one. At the end of a day, who is our president? - Ex-comunist turned out to be NDPushnik.

Oki, don't get mad, at the end of a day, it was my personal opinion. and it does not mean that I underestimate my ppl, i just think they deserve better life, that's it.

[_Charosoy_]

First of all I want to say, that I believe in democracy and a democratic development in Uzbekistan!!! But we have to be realistic. It will take much longer time, since we get democracy like in modern countries.
We (the people here in this chat) are not representative for the Uzbek society. You are lucky guys, working and living in european or american cities. But the reality in Uzbekistan is quite different. Do you think, that for someone in Karakalpakistan, Namangan, in the area of the Aral Sea or in the countryside, democracy is the major problem? To find a job and earn some money is it!
But its also true that only a democratic society has a future. So it will take a while but the people will learn it. Dont forget that cause of the russians we had no chance to build or own republic and live in democracy for over 130 years.
11 Years are gone, since we get independent. For some of us it seems to be a long period, but this is a very short time for developing and building a country. Most of the european countries were founded over 100 years ago. And the democratic development happened step by step in a consensus. Most of the democratic rights (for example the equality of man and woman) was given to europeans in the 70ies, not so far ago.
We have to be patient.
I will give an other example. Do you know how much money was transfered as aid from West Germany to former east Germany since the reunion? I think it must be over 1,5 trillion Euro!!! In spite of all this money, the unemployment in east Germany is still at 18% and 15% are working in special employment programs of the state. This in the heart of Europe!
But this means not that we have to be satisfied with the situation in Uzbekistan. Its good that you feel ready for democracy. But feeling is not enough, we have to do something for our country.
What kind of democracy we need - or is there only one democratic way?
I think democracy is not a mathematical formula. Culture and tradition influence directly the democracy in a country. This was also happened in Western Europe. Democracy doesnt mean, that everyone can do everything he wants. Democracy ends if you try to hurt someone or his rights. And every society feels hurted by his feelings from different things. So naturally every country has a different mind what democracy is.

Charoshon, agar sizga Uzbek Millatini gami tushgan bolsa marhamat kilib avval Uzbek tilida gapiring.
Rahmat.

[_Charosoy_]

Charoshon, agar sizga Uzbek Millatini gami tushgan bolsa marhamat kilib avval Uzbek tilida gapiring.
Rahmat.

Guest yuzda yuz HAQLISIZ.. Bu gapingiz juda tugri buldi.. bundan keyin tortishmalar va bahslar O'zbek tilida bulishi mantiqliroq .. Ruscha yoki Englizcha yozganim sababi buni javob tariqasida yozilgan edi bazi bir forum ishtirokchilariga..
Tanqidiz uchun rahmat.
Hurmat bilan Charosoy :)

[BigN]

Demokratiya haqida qiziq tema ochilibdi mayli men ham bitta javob beri, ya'ni aniqrog'i misol! (mani o'zini ko'rsatmoqchi deb o'ylidigan user davomi o'qishi shart emas)
Man bir necha yil davomida sinfimizda Klasskom bo'ldim va shu payt davomda o'quvchilarga ayrim ishlarni bo'lib berar edim va ishlatishim kerak edi!
O'zilar bilaslar maktabda o'quvchilar ko'p va maktab toza turishi maqsadida Shanbaliklar (har shanba emas) qilinardi. Shu kunlari mani boshim og'rib ketar edi, chunki har bir o'quvchini har hil, etajda har hil korridorlarda ish qilishlarini kuzatishim kerak edi. Man kuzatmasam ular iloji boricha uyga ketishga harakat qilishar edi. Bundan tashqari dars tugagach o'quvchilarni ishga solishga ulgirmasam ular asta "quyonni rasmini chizib qolishar edi :shock: " Olib qaraganda bu Shanbalik faqat menga kerak bo'lgande, ularni ko'pchiligi orqasidan yugurar edim.
P.S. Hudoga shukur bizlarda maktab bepul!

Bundan manimcha o'zilar to'g'ri hulosa chiqarib olarsizlar. :)

[Lotus]

I believe that the first step Uzbekistan has to take on its way to democracy would be giving people freedom to work. As of right now, it is not only that the government is not providing jobs but it is also not giving an opportunity to make a living by imposing ridiculous taxes and interfering in every aspect of business.

ili uchitelya s togorashkami po svadbam da po challaram rosxajivayut vmesto urokov

I have seen this a lot. This is professional irresponsibility and there should be punishment for this. Guys, do not throw stones at me for saying this, but it is mostly female Uzbeks who do this kind of stuff. I have seen doctors getting their haircuts during work hours while there was a line of patients to their office, I have seen bank workers spending good part of their work day chatting about toy, sarpa, etc. Professionally these ladies are incapable. I am Uzbek myself and the only explanation I see for this is that the work is the last thing that interests them. The roots of the problem are even deeper, they go back to their families, kindergarten, school and college. You can draw a parallel between attitude to Subbotniks, as Jormanboy mentioned above, and attitude to work. Of course, a lot depends on the person. If one does not care about the quality of the job they do - that's their problem, but there should be an external force demanding that everyone does his/her job.

to Lotus: i in my opinion its not each individual's fault that they leave their work place or have less responsibility towards thier job. Firstly its kind of atmosphere which makes you to act that way ( i mean better wages and strong relationship with employee would be a solution) Secondly today it doesn't matter wheather you worked hard or not you always get the punishment quite frankly there is no any reward for working hard. therefore next visible option is use time for personal activity at least helpful in some way. For instance in Japan managers and workers work extra hours because they know if a firm produces good results they will benefit from it. But is this a case for Uzbekistan?

[Doggy]

tak kto zametil uje ya zdesya kritik, tak chto etot vopros men konkretno besit. snachala hochu poslat kto etot vopros napisal. a moyo mneniye mneniye naroda tipa mi gotovi esli koruptsionerov i vzyatichnikov vseh kto nibud pereyebal. A nash president sam pod dudochki koruptsii plashet, klik dayu esli ya vru, i lijet vse zadnitsi kak ego papa uchil. :evil: :twisted:

[_Charosoy_]

tak kto zametil uje ya zdesya kritik, tak chto etot vopros men konkretno besit. snachala hochu poslat kto etot vopros napisal. a moyo mneniye mneniye naroda tipa mi gotovi esli koruptsionerov i vzyatichnikov vseh kto nibud pereyebal. A nash president sam pod dudochki koruptsii plashet, klik dayu esli ya vru, i lijet vse zadnitsi kak ego papa uchil. :evil: :twisted:

Rahmat kattakon iltifotiz uchun Doggy aka ;) O.k Shunchalik siz haq ekansiz,, tamom... Bu yerda hamma bir biri bilan urishish janjal qilish uchun kirmaydilar, hamma uz mulohazalarini aytish, fikrlash uchun kiradi, yoqmadimi savol.. unda uzizning nazariyangizni kursating,,, sukishni hic hojati yuq!!!
Tanqid qilish va maslahat berish hammaning qulidan keladi...

[/U][/B]Bir qo'pol suhbati majlisdan chandon,
Hushdil jamoatni ranjitur oson.
Xovuz tuldirsa gulobga tamom,
Bir It tushsa bulur badrabdek harom..

[Saturn]

Нимага Узбекистон халки демократияга тайер эмас ва кандай килиб демократияга боскичма боскич утиш мумкин? Ким бу боскичларни белгилайди? Агар демократияни хам худди иктисодий ислохитларимизни хаетга боскичма-боскич тагриб килгандай килсак, манимча буни килгандан килмаган яхши. Узи демократик жамият бундо олиб караганда бу одамлар томонидан сайланган хукуматга эга давлат, а бизда хам шу... Президентни сайлаганмиз (утган аср), хар хил депутат-мепутатларниям с "горем пополам" сайлаганмиз. Нимаси демократия эмас бизда? Чунки демократия тушунчаси кенгрок, одамларда яна freedom of choice (узбекчага таржима кила олмадим) булиши керак, а бизада шу куриб кетгур freedom и йугрок, Чаросхон айтганлариде боскичма - боскич принципига кура сайлашга хаккимиз бор, факат choice йук. Халигиде Узбекистон халки хали демократияга унча тайер бумагани учун, хозирча сайлашни урганиб турила, кейин choice хам буп колар дейишган тепадаги донолар. Кискаси худди анекдотдака - бассейнга калла ташашни урганиб турила, сувни кейин куйиб берамиз - ха боскичма боскич де!

[Lotus]

Firstly its kind of atmosphere which makes you to act that way ( i mean better wages and strong relationship with employee would be a solution)

It sounds like "систему не переделаешь". Но систему создают сами люди, она сама по себе не существует.

i in my opinion its not each individual's fault that they leave their work place or have less responsibility towards thier job. Firstly its kind of atmosphere which makes you to act that way ( i mean better wages and strong relationship with employee would be a solution)

Taking current unemployment rate in Uzbekistan into consideration, low wages are better than no wages at all. I think that no matter how much you pay this particular category of people, they will still do a sloppy job.


Secondly today it doesn't matter wheather you worked hard or not you always get the punishment quite frankly there is no any reward for working hard. therefore next visible option is use time for personal activity at least helpful in some way.

... then they should quit the work and use their entire time for personal matters. If they are not quitting, that means there is a material benefit attaching them to the work and, if that's the case, they have to work for their money, not chit-chat. I also do not believe that it has anything to do with current economic situation. This attitude existed in Soviet times but because there was some control it was not so obvious and wide spread.

For instance in Japan managers and workers work extra hours because they know if a firm produces good results they will benefit from it. But is this a case for Uzbekistan?

No, it is not. If people were given an opportunity to work extra hours to earn more money, they would take it. But the question is - what would be the quality of the work? Who needs extra crappy results delivered in extra hours?

[Blabla]

fdojdojfo fw

[Doggy]

Charoshon osmondan tushing va kozingizni kattakon oching:-). siz hech kichik shaharlarga borib hayotni korganmisiz? yani kichik 13, 14 yoshli qizlar kochada jalablik qilishadi. Va juda yosh bolalar yoshi 7-8lardagi lar esa hoyotini ogirlik bilan otkazishadi. Agar uysiz odamlarning oldiga kelsangiz, uyini kurasangiz yegan ovqati ahlatdan olingan iflos narsalardir. shuni porloq kelajak deb boladimi? bularning sababini bilasizmi? sabablari tiqilib yotibdi. eng kattasi vot eti koruptsioneri. "kogda ktota jryot togda komuta nedastayotsya" i eti suki koruptsioneri vsyo ot naroda krodut. a na eto vsem na pluvat. A president kakimito huynya zanimayetsya, menya eto besit konkretno.yesli menya ponela spasibo, a yesli yest opyat je nekotoriye voozrajeniye izvini i zabud ;-)

[judgement]

biz tayyormiz.mana sizga bitta misol.demokratiya xalqni boshqaruvi demek.freedom demak emas.garchi sizlar freedomni qanaqa qib tushunasizlar bilmadim ammo...bizlar tayyor emasmiz chunki bir birimizdan nafrat qilamiz.tolerans yoq.[/B]

[_Charosoy_]

Charoshon osmondan tushing va kozingizni kattakon oching:-). siz hech kichik shaharlarga borib hayotni korganmisiz? yani kichik 13, 14 yoshli qizlar kochada jalablik qilishadi. Va juda yosh bolalar yoshi 7-8lardagi lar esa hoyotini ogirlik bilan otkazishadi. Agar uysiz odamlarning oldiga kelsangiz, uyini kurasangiz yegan ovqati ahlatdan olingan iflos narsalardir. shuni porloq kelajak deb boladimi? bularning sababini bilasizmi? sabablari tiqilib yotibdi. eng kattasi vot eti koruptsioneri. "kogda ktota jryot togda komuta nedastayotsya" i eti suki koruptsioneri vsyo ot naroda krodut. a na eto vsem na pluvat. A president kakimito huynya zanimayetsya, menya eto besit konkretno.yesli menya ponela spasibo, a yesli yest opyat je nekotoriye voozrajeniye izvini i zabud ;-)
Azizim Doggy.. agarda undan oldingi sal usta yozgan narsamni uqiganizda edi bu suzlarni balki takrorran yozmagan bular ediz..
Tugri hayot qiyin va oson emas.. buni ming afsuslar bulsinkim kuryapmiz..sioz aytgan kichik viloyatlarda ham bulganman , u yerlarni ham kurganman va ular haqida ham maqola yozganman ammo bu befoyda chunki 4 hokimiyat deyishadiyu lekin hamma yozgan narsa tsenzua orqali chiqarilmaydi.. malesef.. va siz aytgan sabalar bopisdan ham hali bizning davlat yana aytaman bizning haLQ tayyor emas..Tugri siz kabi va man kabi chet elda quigan yoshlar tayyordur.. lekin aytingchi Doggy bunday yoshlar hammasi qanchani tashkil qiladi aa?? undan keyin esa ogizni tuldirib hammani nomidan dalil va isbotlar bilan mana TAYYORMIZ DENG!!!!
2 chi. siz aytgan jalablar va haroba yerda yashayotgan odamlar oldin ham bulgan.. Fohishalik har doim bulgan tarihdan bulib kelgan va davom etadi ham.. .Lekin bir narsa aytaman bu fohishalik va tilanchilik va ishsizlik bizning davaltda yanayam ming shukurlar bulsin juda ozlikni tashkil qiladi..
Misol tariqasida hamma havas qiladigan GERMANY ni olaylik.. eng razil fohishalaru.. gomoseksualistlar,, kuchada ochiqdan ochiq upishib yalab yulqab turgan erkaklar,, ayolmi ewrkakmi farqiga bormaydigan har hil panklar, liizbiyankalr. natsislar.. tilanchlar,, butun razillik buyerda... 18 % ishsizlik.. buni oldida Uzbekiston jannatdey joy..
Hup hayot qiyin Uzbekistonda tugri.. siz aytgan qorinni qapaytirib turgan odamalr... bor.. va ular doim bulib keladi..ming afsuslar bulsin..
Gapirursa gap kup.. deganidek.. Lekin bu Uzbekiston haqida qadrli Doggy shuchalik salbiy fikrda bulish notugri manimcha.. guzalikni ham kura bilish darkor:)
hurmat bilan charosoy

[BigN]

... wow ...




:shock: :shock: :shock:

[wyxpat]

Demokratiya nima degan savolga javob topvolay keyin Charosoyning savoliga javob beraman, nasib bo'sa :))

[joe parker]

Ловушка демократии
Власть террористов или власть спецслужб - дано ли третье?
Виталий Третьяков

Периодически новостные ленты информационных агентств приносят сообщения о так называемых шпионских скандалах. Это то, что выплескивается на публику. Гораздо чаще до скандалов дело не доходит - спецслужбы и дипломатические ведомства порой весьма дружественных государств решают проблемы, возникающие в этой деликатной сфере негласно, можно сказать, полюбовно.

Глобализация, открытость, сотрудничество - всего этого сейчас больше, чем когда-либо ранее, однако сворачивания деятельности спецслужб, по крайней мере спецслужб главных игроков мировой политики, не наблюдается. Если не наоборот.

Отнесем это к парадоксам современной евроатлантической цивилизации, одно из синонимических названий которой -"открытое общество".

В США создано и начинает действовать министерство внутренней безопасности, соединяющее в себе функции ранее четко разделенных спецслужб, в частности спецслужб, работающих внутри страны и за ее пределами, а также спецслужб, отвечающих за внутреннюю национальную безопасность, и криминальной полиции. Такое разделение считалось одним из главных признаков цивилизованного, то есть истинно демократического государства.

Процесс пошел, как известно, после грандиозного теракта 11 сентября 2001 года. Это в США.

Более рафинированная и более правозащитная по духу Западная Европа, надо думать, тоже присоединится к этому процессу. Когда гром грянет и на ее улице. Но уже сейчас объединенная Европа все больше и больше закрывает свои когда-то беспрецедентно прозрачные границы.

Крайне поверхностно было бы усматривать в этих тенденциях злую волю или скрытый антидемократизм американского или западно-европейского общества.

Проблема гораздо глубже, а потому гораздо сложнее, ибо за ней скрывается глубокий содержательный и институциональный кризис демократического общества, попавшего в ловушку демократии.

Конструкция ловушки проста. Она состоит из элементов, причем основных, самой демократии и одного из ее порождений - института прав человека.

Итак, демократические общества и государства отличаются от недемократических своей открытостью, минимальным контролем за частной жизнью, передвижениями, частными контактами как своих собственных граждан, так и тех, кто просто находится на территории этих государств. Кроме того, демократические страны создали институт политического убежища, призванный сохранять жизнь и свободу действий оппозиционеров, преследуемых режимами стран недемократических.

Короче говоря, демократическая страна, и именно в этом ее привлекательность, является гораздо более открытой и свободной, чем иные страны. А в силу этого - наиболее открытой для почти беспрепятственного проникновения на свою территорию всех, в том числе и вполне асоциальных, а то и прямо антидемократических лиц из внешнего мира.

Внешняя закрытость и тотальная внутренняя слежка превращают демократию в недемократию. Внешняя открытость и отсутствие тотальной слежки превращают демократию в легкую добычу самых недемократических сил.

Вот это и есть ловушка.

До поры до времени она не захлопывалась, ибо, с одной стороны, возводилась почти в абсолют теория привлекательности западных ценностей, приобщение к которым и является главным побудительным мотивом для тех, кто приезжает на Запад что на постоянное жительство, что для временного пребывания. Проголосовать на свободных выборах, посмотреть, как работает демократический парламент, походить на митинги, вкусить истинной свободы слова и истинной веротерпимости. И лишь попутно - окунуться в материальное благополучие. К этому, как казалось, стремились те, кто всеми правдами, а в последнее время все больше и неправдами проникал на Запад. В более реалистичном варианте теория открытого общества предполагала, что, желая обрести достаток, приезжающие, вынужденные играть по правилам рыночной экономики, естественным путем приобщаются и к ценностям ее почти alter ego - политической демократии и институту гражданских свобод, ограниченных взаимной ответственностью.

Окончательный крах этой теории и случился 11 сентября 2001 года.

Как ранее, до 11 сентября, решалась эта коллизия, наблюдаемая, в общем-то, давно, но официально не обозначаемая (в силу законов политкорректности)? Надо признаться, что решалась почти успешно, но внутренне противоречиво. "Демократия для себя" сдерживала натиск недемократий и антидемократий силовыми, военными и иными антидемократическими методами. Использование этих методов было столь масштабным, а заложенное в них внутреннее противоречие столь очевидным, что к концу XX века родился и вошел в официальный лексикон такой странный термин, как "гуманитарная военная операция". Даже и без учета того, что такого рода "гуманитарные войны" нередко применялись по рецептам старой как мир политики двойных стандартов, стало ясно, что конец этого этапа развития демократической политической морали близок. Ведь, как известно, найти словесное определение явлению - это значит окончательно вынести ему приговор.

До 11 сентября борьба демократии недемократическими методами с недемократией велась на дальних подступах к собственно демократии. (В скобках замечу, что это, конечно, не совсем так. Вспомним кажущуюся почти средневековой, но, в общем-то, не вполне давнюю кампанию маккартизма в США.)

После 11 сентября 2001 года наступил перелом. Западное демократическое общество было поставлено перед дилеммой, а проще говоря, перед выбором из двух зол: либо ради сохранения неприкосновенности института прав человека терпеть присутствие террористов в цитадели, возведенной вокруг этого института, либо ради сохранения самой цитадели (и ее жителей) позволить в ней нарушающую неприкосновенность этого священного института деятельность спецслужб. Либо равные права и максимальные свободы для всех, в том числе и для террористов, либо ограничение и прав, и свобод всех, что поможет обезвредить большинство террористов.

Короче говоря, либо власть террористов, либо власть спецслужб.

Разумеется, демократическое общество попытается найти золотую середину, выраженную формулой "то, что делает власть террористов уже невозможной, а власть спецслужб - еще невозможной". Но есть ли такая золотая середина? Вот в чем вопрос.

С уверенностью можно утверждать лишь одно: если западное, американское общество жизнеспособно в принципе, оно выберет тот механизм, который отвечает не принципу золотой середины, а инстинкту самосохранения. Если даже механизм антидемократичен.

Все это крайне поучительно для России, открытой всем ветрам, с неустойчивой политической системой, с полуразрушенной системой спецслужб, которую, согласно одной исторической тенденции (построение демократического общества), не надо бы укреплять, а согласно другой, столь же актуальной, укреплять надо, причем стремительно.

Ответ на вызовы, брошенные терроризмом и России, мы найдем не только сами, но и глядя на демократический Запад. Сумеет ли он сохранить антидемократизм лишь как метод внешней борьбы с антидемократизмом или перенесет его и на внутренний фронт? Ответ пока неизвестен.

Источник - Российская газета

[Doggy]

Charos, I just wrote what i can. My opinion -it is mE.

[*Wraith*]

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:)


:)

Historically 11ht years are not a long period. But if you make an objective observation, you can easily see how fundamentally our life has changed during this very short time.

Untruthful and forcible system, that described Uzbekistan as a half colonial country, as the source of raw material supply, that has neglected its national values and trampled upon its history, language, culture and traditions, has collapsed.

Extremely ideological system, that consisted of functionaries, bureaucrat and lickspittle officials, that has rested on administrative and command style, the system that treated our people as a humble, subordinate crowd, now is far away in the past.

Today we are creating a solid foundation of a democratic, secular society and a legal state, we are creating the basis of a multi-structured and steadily developing market oriented economy.

Unique changes are taking place in all the spheres of our life, in towns and cities, villages and kishlaks, in big branches of economy.

To put it in short, the process of renovation and reforms has impacted in reality almost all the sides of our life — political, social and economic, public and social construction.

But the most important thing, and this we should emphasize separately, is that alongside with these processes we witness how we are changing, our mentality and our vision of all new things are changing basically.

The most important aspect of all these changes is that people themselves began to shape their future fates, the future of their families, they evaluate their own capacities and skills; they began to consciously recognize the democratic processes of our life.

On the whole, our nation is the creator of its life and its future. This is the chief progress, and I think we should develop and strengthen the mentality of the nation.

Dear fellow-countrymen,

Comprehending the period that has elapsed and summing up the achievements, first of all, we should thank the Creator who made it possible to witness these days and supported us in achieving our noble goals.

During the time that passed away, we together with you, people's deputies, have performed the joint work on the road to the highest and single goal — the great future of our Homeland, the light future day, well-being of our people, prosperity of the country, attaining deserved prestige and authority on the international arena, glorifying Uzbekistan and the Uzbek nation.

The most important achievement is the major criteria that our Parliament followed in its first calling activity. In a very complicated situation, when the multi-party system and various movements, social associations, classes and layers have been emerging, the Oliy Majlis in cooperation with other government structures has functioned as a solid and reliable guarantee preserving political stability, peace and quietness in the society.

Today we should emphasize with satisfaction that the Oliy Majlis headed the renovation processes in social, political, spiritual and cultural life of the country. It created the legal basis of reforms and initiated consequent implementation of these tasks.

The five-year report of the Oliy Majlis about its activity that is submitted today, discourses and arguments, evaluations of deputies' reviews, in a word, the five-year activity of the Oliy Majlis, all measures that have been performed and implemented to increase the authority of our country on the international arena, I think, testify once again that parliamentarism, a typical characteristic of a democratic country, is emerging in Uzbekistan.

Life and time change dramatically. Our society and the parliament — its component part— are also changing, and deputies are changing too.

Today, my dears, I should like to say to you and to millions of our voters who have trusted us, that all successes that have been achieved by our country and nation during the passed period is the contribution of our Parliament.

In front of our people, our voters, our own consciousness, you may say that you have performed your duty honestly and deservingly. This I emphasize with great pride.

Dear people's deputies,

From this platform, I want to exchange views and notes on a very important task that we are facing today.

All of you are aware our country and nation are standing on the threshold of important social and political events. At the current session we should define the terms of the upcoming presidential elections and the deputies elections to the Oliy Majlis. These elections once again will give us an opportunity to show to the entire World community our experience in democracy accumulated during the Independence years, implementation of principles of democracy into our life, increase of the political consciousness of our nation, all this will be an important test.

During election periods various opinions, views, wishes and dreams, expectations, social moods and aspirations of political movements and forces of each country and in each society are clearly manifested and become obvious.

Taking into account all this, today we should critically evaluate the current situation in the country. We should start from the legal basis that have been consolidated due to approved laws, that were created during the eight years, first of all, our Constitution and various international standards. We should mobilize our material, spiritual and intellectual potential to properly go through this huge political test and strengthen the authority of our country.

As far as we are aiming to achieve a noble goal — to create a democratic and legal state, a secular society, we should organize open and free elections that are the initial criteria of democracy.

I think these issues deserve a more detailed discussion.

Definitely, we have our own Constitution, that is acknowledged by the international organizations and fully meet the demands of democracy. We have our own laws that reflect generally accepted international standards on the election issues, the positive experience of the advanced democratic countries, perfect regulations and requirements.

Thus, it follows, that our major task is to provide a firm and sound observation of approved laws and requirements of democratic standards.

In this case, we should apply principles of democracy and the positive experience of the developed countries.

We should consider that an important aspect in this experience is how the population and, primarily, the voters treat the elections, the role of elections in social life, how the elections are prepared and conducted, that have been shaped during decades and sometimes centuries, have passed through many tests and trials.

This implies a detailed analysis, study and conduct of propaganda among voters, use of this progressive experience in training sessions and seminars in relevant organizations and among active members.

I want to note once again, that increase of nation's and voters’ political consciousness, shaped through national legislation and international standards, increase of political level and culture of voters, comprehension of their constitutional rights is the most important and actual task.

In connection with this, I would like to focus on some negative aspects of our life.

In compliance with the laws approved in the country, during the elections conducted on a multi-party basis, naturally we expect, at least, four or five candidates for each deputy mandate. Proceeding from this, during the preparation period for elections we should not allow to use unsound fight and to apply illegal actions and also groundless promises to attract the voters’ sympathies.

Elections should not cause division of people into clans, regionalism, favoritism. We should not let emerge such negative manifestations as baseless undermining, unceremonious actions towards somebody's prestige, insults, arrangement of different "games".

Such qualities of our nation as steadiness, modesty, restraint from glorify an individual. Nobody has any right, who has not been authorized to give ways to their eloquence, speak out on platforms on behalf of the nation.

An individual who made up his decision to become a deputy may win faith and confidence among his voters only using such qualities as honesty, high morals, deep knowledge, talents and ability to put nation's interests higher than his own interests.

When we begin to speak about elections and preparation for these elections, we should define a single task that will be used as the major criteria and goal in all measures to be implemented, and we should achieve it.

The major goal of our election campaign is to create such environment to every voter, irrespective for whom he prefers to vote, whether for the candidate into the Presidency or the candidate into a deputy’s position, he should follow his own will, conscience and belief; he should vote independently and with conscience.

Only in case we achieve this, we may be satisfied with the results of the election.

I think, it is significant to reiterate one important thought. Any party, if it is a political party in its entire meaning, first of all, should, alongside with a definitely shaped idea, be able to oppose another idea or other people. They should not be scared to do it.

This kind of behavior and approaches should be clear to representatives of all the parties and those people who support these parties.

To put it more clearly, parties' supporters should have good knowledge and clearly cut understanding of what their party is fighting for and against, and they should have their own position of the problem.

One more thing. No problem can be solved through the system working in spurts and through excessive lauding of the current policy. All of us should have good understanding that making various appearances on platforms and abstract speeches at meetings, you can not grow a tree or build a house.

That's why we should critically approach to our life, make thorough analysis of social and political reality, express really well considered opinions, well thought-out conclusions on important issues, that our nation is interested to have today - whether these are political or government and society management issues or how to improve living standards. After grounding these issues, it is necessary to attract the wide public opinion to your side, to fight for ideas, that serve first and foremost our national interests and could be converted into applicable force.

I wish success to all our parties at the coming elections, and I would like them learn one truth: the history of political fights shows that many parties in the world gained "fame" in various scandals, but you should win fame and authority by your constructive work.

Of course, in this extremely important and responsible event as elections you, in no case, should be acting in haste.

Once again, I'm reiterating: in case of need, you should address the world experience, increase and expand explanatory work, arrange meetings and seminars with participation of international representations, organizations and the wide masses of the Republic.

It is the important task of mass media to present a detailed and clearly highlighted information of these processes to the population.

During the elections we should avoid flows and blemishes that remained from the Soviet era. In many instances unqualified interference of local governments, idle talk result in violation of legal requirements.

Every voter should approach this process consciously and understand that his vote is significant for the life of the society and the state, for its future and huge voter's responsibility is placed on him. It should be different from the previous periods when an individual thought that his task was to throw into a ballot-box voting papers of the whole family.

Summing up what have been said, it is necessary to underline that our major task is to provide priority principles of democracy and proceeding from positive experience accumulated during previous elections, we should not repeat previous mistakes and errors.

Dear friends,

All our activity and aspiration, intentions and skills are directed to facilitate the life of our hard working and kind hearted nation and provide more radiant future.

Whatever work we've performed, whatever hardships we've suffered to create the happiness and well-bring of our nation — still this is not enough. Our nation deserves all this happiness.

Our favorite writer Said Akhmad once said: "Uzbek people's nature attracts everyone who has ever experienced the kindness of this nation, you win love this nation for all your life. Our land is a holy land and the person who has once got to know the warmth of this land, will be indebted and stay true to this land."

Therefore, each of us should be very proud of being a part of this hard working nation, that saves and increases the legacy of our great ancestors, shapes own national values using their life-giving writings and this way educates the young generation. It is our debt and honor to worship it.

I have one more thought I want to share with you.

I'm happy I've been all my life with my nation, was respected and honored by my nation, could be useful and help my people.

A person may rightfully be happy if in this life he could do a great favour for widows and orphans, could assist support than, and facilitate fate of people.

However, not everyone is destined, at the turning point of history, to protect the whole nation from unjust abasement and insult, to induce to self-consciousness, increase its spiritual life, to call to life with a high lifted head, to lead to grand goals, and putting it in plain language, to take it to freedom and independence.

This fell to my lot to have this fate. For me it is a great happiness and honor. That's why, I say there is not more happiness for me than the freedom of my Homeland, well-being of my nation, prosperity of the country, and each separate family inhabiting this holy land.

I've cherished a wish, that I cannot but open today. As time passes, I'm getting old as other people do, life is passing through. As I'm busy solving government issues, complicated and difficult everyday problems, that need their solution, I sometimes regret about one thing.

My biggest wish is to meet with ordinary and common people, to visit their families, that face current difficulties, to talk with fathers and mothers in the families, with veterans who experienced grief and happiness, to meet with youth who are making their first steps in life.

I'd like to share the happy days with these families. When I meet people and talk to them and when I say I would be happy if they invite me to celebrations of their family events, these are not mere words.

Thus, during meetings with our young men and girls who are having their training in the famous educational centers of the United States of America, I've asked them to invite me to their wedding parties, this came from the bottom of my heart.

Dear friends, dear fellow-countrymen,

Let me express my thanks for your work, that has been performed by a friendly and united group of people, for your support, for all your efforts and activity, directed to gain prosperity of our nation and the Homeland.

I'm proud, I've been working with this kind of self-sacrificing people like you. I'm proud that among you I have many people who became very close and dear to me.

My dear fellow-countrymen, be always healthy for the happiness of our country!
:nod:
Once again I congratulate you and through you all our nation upon the approaching holiday which is a very dear and great holiday - the Independence Day.
:egypt:

[Ilhom]

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:) Qadrli Charoshon menimcha O`zbek halqi hali demokratiyaga tayyor emas degan gapingiz bizning diktator rahbarlarimizga asaldek yoqib tushgan bo`lsa ajabmas. Menimcha masalani bu tarzda qo`yish noto`gri. hech kim hali o`sha demokratiyaga o`tmasdan turib o`tish vaqti kelgan yoku kelmaganligini belgilab berolmaydi. hamma narsa boshida risoladagidek bo`lmasa ham vaqt o`tgan sari tajribalar oshib o`z o`rniga tushib ketadi. Lekin buning uchun avval o`sha demokratiyaga o`tish kerak. demokratiya o`z nomidan kelib chiqqan holda " HALQ HOKIMIYATI" degan narsani anglatar ekan halqning hohish istagiga yarasha boshqacha qilib aytsak halqning manfaatlarini ko`zlaydigan qonunlarni chiqarish va shunga hayotda amal qilish kerak. Prezident esa biron davlatning egasi emas ko`ngliga kelganini qilaveradigan aksincha aksincha o`sha davlat halqiga hizmat qiluvchi hodim bo`lmogi kerak. --- KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ?---degan savolizga man to`grisi tushunmadim. Balki o`zingiz tushuntirarsiz. faithfully yours Ilhom.


:)

[Ilhom]

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:) Qadrli Charoshon menimcha O`zbek halqi hali demokratiyaga tayyor emas degan gapingiz bizning diktator rahbarlarimizga asaldek yoqib tushgan bo`lsa ajabmas. Menimcha masalani bu tarzda qo`yish noto`gri. hech kim hali o`sha demokratiyaga o`tmasdan turib o`tish vaqti kelgan yoku kelmaganligini belgilab berolmaydi. hamma narsa boshida risoladagidek bo`lmasa ham vaqt o`tgan sari tajribalar oshib o`z o`rniga tushib ketadi. Lekin buning uchun avval o`sha demokratiyaga o`tish kerak. demokratiya o`z nomidan kelib chiqqan holda " HALQ HOKIMIYATI" degan narsani anglatar ekan halqning hohish istagiga yarasha boshqacha qilib aytsak halqning manfaatlarini ko`zlaydigan qonunlarni chiqarish va shunga hayotda amal qilish kerak. Prezident esa biron davlatning egasi emas ko`ngliga kelganini qilaveradigan aksincha aksincha o`sha davlat halqiga hizmat qiluvchi hodim bo`lmogi kerak. --- KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ?---degan savolizga man to`grisi tushunmadim. Balki o`zingiz tushuntirarsiz. faithfully yours Ilhom.


:)

[Ilhom]

Charoshon ayrim so`zlarizga qaraganda manimcha siz avval turk litseyini bitirgansiz yoki Turkiyada o`qigansiz to`grimi?

[john_nash]

YA ISKRENNE NADEYUS CHTO U VAS NABERETSYA TERPENIE PROCHITAT VSE ETO DO KONCA.
Hi everybody

Kuyovtura's message is long enough, I couldn't read it up to the end, it is like the Gorbachev or Brejnev's speeches that they used to do while in the session.

Kuyovtura,
Optimism ensures the self-confidence, enables one to complete the task put. But as to those that don't share that opinion it may create the reactionary opposition. Pragmatism should be the best way to solve the problem. As to the Parliament, experts hardly recognise it as an institution in Uzbekistan, it is rather the doll of political leaders. Though I criticised in my one message the realistic point of Delta, I share realism, setback is inevitable, managing it is remedy.

As to the other points:
Charoshon, ya dumayu esli vi v Germanii (kak ya polagayu), i uvideli vseh etih 'negodyaev' - lizbiyanok, geyov, prostitutok, navernoe eto i est (hotya i malenkaya) chast demokratii. Poka mi ne srabotaem opredelennyuyu tolerantnost ko vsemu etomu, eto vpolne mojet pomeshat formirovaniyu demokratii. Chto kasaetsya molodeji, ya ne dumayu chto ona slishkom otlichaetsya ot svoih predshestvennikov, to est esli vi, ya priuchilis v Zapade, eto ne obyazatelno oznachaet chto mi uje stali umnimi i gotovimi k demokratii: nado sperva isterpet v sebe vse nedostatki i priumeshestva demokratii i tolko potom mojno sudit nujna li ona nam ili net, esli nujna (ya uveren 75-80% lyudey nahodyat ee nujnoy), to eto uje oznachaet (ili vpolne mojet oznachat), chto ot nas trebuetsya pojertvovat s nekotorimi nashimi cennostyami, blagodarya kotorih mi jivem seychas (naprimer: cenit CHELOVEKA, Semya, ...). Vi dumaete eto ne trebuetsya? A kak je !?
Eto vopros principa, mojet chto to ostanetsya, mojet i net...
Ya chut li ne zaplakivayu kogda uviju Malayziycov, kotorie ostalis predannimi islamu, no odnako planiruyut v 2020 stat razvitoy stranoy, no budte uvereni, u nih toje est s chem oni poprashalis navsegda kogda oni stupili v etot put. Tak chto, eto vopros ne takoy uj i kazalos bi legkiy, kak mojet kazatsya.

To chto proishodit v Uzbekistane seychas nelzya nazvat ne demokratiey, ne avtokratiey (hotya vtorim ono mojet i bit). Delo v tom, chto sistema ne nacelena ne na podderjku nacionalnih cennostey, ne na demokratiyu metropolitanskogo haraktera. Silovie metodi gosudarstva v podderjku svoey politiki polnostyu annuliruet ego reputaciyu kak demokraticheskogo promotera i tot fakt chto pri etom obyektami presledoveniy popadayutsya lyudi iz prostogo naroda (kotoriy sostavlyaet bolshinstvo naseleniya Uzbekistana) polnostyu lishaet gosudrtva ot vozmojnosti imeniya loyalnih k sisteme grajdan.

Tak nujna ili net demokratiya Uzbekistanu eto perviy vopros (prejde chem sprosit gotovi li mi k ney ili net). I vi predstavte tebe vashego soseda (ili daje mojet bit vashego druga), sostayashego v chlenstve v obshestve geyov, ili je vashu devushku (chto samiy hudshiy konec), kotoraya pobivala v ... otnosheniyah s kem-to do vas (potomu chto uje demokratiya associruetsya s obshestvom, gde caret rinochnaya ekonomika, sledovatelno soblaznev v etoy ekonomiki namnogo bolshe chem v menee raznoobraznom obshestve). Esli vi iskrenne pochustvuete chto vi do sih por storonnik demokratii, to otsyuda ot vas poluchitsya horoshiy demokrat. Pravda, eto tolko samie kraynie tochki demokratii, i to chto zdes skazano, eto samie ekstremalnie protivopolojnie tochki demokratii i identichnosti nacii.

Na schet interpretacii Demokratii: esli Russkie imeyut svoyu demokratiyu, Shwedi svoyu, togda zachem govorit o demokratii voobshe? Togda pochemu rejim, skajem, talibov ne demokratichen?
Demokratiya, kak svoyu osnovu imeet terpimost vo vsem otnoshenie k protipolojnim ideyam. Ne nado poddavatsya illyuziyam, mechtaya ob Uzbekskoy demokratii: net takoy demokratii, demokratiya kak takovoya odna i ona ne interpretiruetsya po usmotreniyu. Tak chto vopros o principialnoy neobhodimosti demokratii v Uzbekistane ostaetsya aktualnim i zdes.

Vopros o gotovnosti naroda Uzbekistana k demokratii:
Esli mi budem schitat chto narod ne gotov k demokratii, chto ot etogo sleduet? Ne hotelos bi zanimatsya plagiarismom, no experti po Centralno-Aziatskim stranam polagayut chto, imenno lojnoe predpolojenie chto yakobi narod Srednoy Azii ne gotov k demokratii sozdaet pochvu dlya sozdaniya avtoritarnogo rejima regiona. I lojnie uroki talibov v Afganistane (yakobi rezultat togo chto mojet prinesti narodovlastie narodam etogo regiona) toje sozdaet lojnoe predstavlenie o tom, chto narod Srednoy Azii ne gotov k demokratii - u nas toje te je fizicheskoe teloslojenie i mozgovie kletki chto u Anglichan i to zaklyuchenie sdelannoe o tom chto narod Uzbekistana eshe ne gotov k demokratiyu imeet odnu tolko cel (esli ne bolshe no v etoy je ramki): eto pomojet vlastyam izbavitsya ot svoih svetskih opponentov vlepaya im marku islamistskih fundamentalistov.

[giman]

Dear Charoshon,

I do agree with you that we need gradual transition, as you said step by step, but in order to change we need to make this steps.
You've been talking about Soviet heritage, about people always being told what to do, but unfortunatelly in those eleven years that have passed people still didn't get a chance to make decisions for themselves. Nothing has been made to teach people to make educated choices. Everything we saw, was just people again being told what is right and what is wrong, who is a friend and who is the enemy. You no right now the situation can be decribed like "Mi stoim na pravilnom puti"
Before saying that our people can't handle democracy, we need to give them a chance.
Thank you for asking questions, we need more of them.

Demokratiya poyavilis v Evrope okolo 2000 ili esho bolshe let nazat i lyudi sledovali ego printsipy (mojete sami utochnit eto ya ne pomnu vse doskonalnosti, ya ne istorik)

These are my points!

Vi dumaete chto lyudi Uzbekistana otstalo lyudey v drugix demokraticheskix staranax bolshe 2000 let, i daje ne smojet sablyudat printsipy demokrati kotoriye soblyudalis togda?

Lyudi Uzbekistana ne xochet ili ne smojet vibirat sebye rukovoditeley esli im dano vibor sredi neskolkix kandidatov?

Lyudi Uzbekistana nexochet chtobi trebovat esli ktoto narushet zakon ili virazit svoyu misl esli ego misl lyuchshe?

Lyudi ne xochet chtobi ix deti toje zanimali visokie posta esli oni dostoyni a ne te sinochki bogatix korruptsionerov?

Lyudi ne xochet chtobi militsiy i takie soblyudali ix chelovecheskiye prava i ne izdevalis nad nimi?

Lyudi ne xochet chtobi magazini bili polni i oni sposobni pokupat chego xochet?

Lyudi nexochet chtobi im zarplatu platili vo vremya a neizdevalis s vsyakimi mukami i maslami vmesto zarplatok?

Lyudi ne xochet chtobi v kolxozax normalno otnoxilis dehqanam i ix trudam?

Eti tolko chast voprosov i lyudi konechno xochet to chto vishe napisano,
i ya dumayu LYUDI UZBEKISTANA GOTOV K DEMOKRATI i vsegda bili gotovi i budet gotovi,

KTO Negotov,
ETO rukovodyashiy sloy, oni ne xochet poprashtsya jirnoy kreslo, oni nexochet chtobi lyudi ot nix trebovali chestnoy raboty, oni xochet chtobi ix sinovki i rodstvenniki zanymali kreslo posle nix,
Oni nexochet ix gras ktoto potom nashel, oni ne xochet chtobi narod jil normalno, i bogato,
Im nujen bezgramotniy poslushniy narod, im nenujen gramotniy terbovatelniy i somodostatochniy narod

Nikto ne budet prinesti demokratiyu za eto nujno borotsya i uchitsya i na uchitsya u drugix demokraticheskix gosudarstv,
a ne sidet kogda mi budem gotovi

[Iqbol]

Do you really think that democracy is the only way to follow?

[mujreem]

Assalamu Alaikum uvajayemiye uchastniki foruma.
Prohodil mimo, zametil topic, hotelos' i svoyo mneniye toje virazit'.
Do you really think that democracy is the only way to follow?
Chevalier respect bro, I see you are more educated in sociology and social sciences.
Kak govoril W. Chirchill:"Demokratiya samaya ujasnaya forma pravleniya, no chelovechestvo yesho ne pridumalo nichego luchshego"
Ya uvajayu Chirchilla za eti yego slova, hotya v kakom to smisle on bil prav, a v kakom to oshibalsya. Churchill bil odnim iz vidayushihsya politikov, i gosudarstvennih deyateley XX veka, no vidimo on ne bil sil'nim sociologom, i ne uchil istoriyu kak Otto Bismarc.
Istoriya chelovechastva pokazivayet chto bili takiye periodi kogda lyudi jili vo vremena samoy nastoyashoy pravovoy demokratii. Ob etom svidetel'stvuyet daje Otto Bismarc. Kak on govoril:
:) Vam interesno chto on govoril? Uchite istoriyu, i vi uznayete otvet. ;)

Day Allah nastupyat' te vremena kogda mi budem jit' v social'no spravedlivom obshestve. Ameen
Wassalam.

[Globalist]

Hurmatli Forum ishtiroqchilari!!!

Hudoga ming shukronalar, mening vaqtim bor ekan - hamma gapinglarni bafurja o'qib chiqdim. Lekin, afsuski, bitta achinarli hulosaga keldim - MUAMMO ANIQ, LEKIN NIMA QILISHNI HECH KIM BILMAYDI. Butuuuuuun shu topic davomida hamma vaqr-vuqr gaplar bilan o'zini fikr-mulohazalarini bildirib keldi - hammanglarga katta rahmat. Lekin bu erdayam bir hil holat: "URRRRRRAAAAAAA!!! DAVVVVAAYTE REBBBYAAAAATTAAAAAAAAA!!!! VPERRRRYOOOOOOOOOOOD!!! DA ZDRAVSTVUET DEMOKRAAAATIYAAAAAAAAAA!!!" :w00t: Natijada bu topic ham boshqalarga o'hshab sekiiiin pasayiiiib o'chib qoladi. Savollar:

Birinchi o'rinda nima qilish kerak?
"Poetapni'y-soetapni'y" divossila: usha etaplar nimadan iborat?
Kim qilish kerak? (aniq javob, a ne tak, kak obi'chno "Ves' narod!!!")
Qachon?
Va hokazo...

Konkret ishlar qilish kerak. Demagogiya bilan hamma shug'ullanishni biladi! E'tiboringiz uchun rahmat!

[john_nash]

ok, Charos'hon,
I still have some objections about what you say:

First of all I want to say, that I believe in democracy and a democratic development in Uzbekistan!!! But we have to be realistic. It will take much longer time, since we get democracy like in modern countries....
Most of the european countries were founded over 100 years ago. And the democratic development happened step by step in a consensus. Most of the democratic rights (for example the equality of man and woman) was given to europeans in the 70ies, not so far ago.
We have to be patient.


If your neighbour learned how to screw the bolt for a about ten years, does it mean that you should do the same? (Is there any need to create bike one more time?)

We (the people here in this chat) are not representative for the Uzbek society. You are lucky guys, working and living in european or american cities. But the reality in Uzbekistan is quite different. Do you think, that for someone in Karakalpakistan, Namangan, in the area of the Aral Sea or in the countryside, democracy is the major problem? To find a job and earn some money is it!


ok, in that sense, as I mentioned before: is there any need to scream about democracy now? Isn't it more important to think about economic problems now?

... the unemployment in east Germany is still at 18% and 15% are working in special employment programs of the state. This in the heart of Europe!...


Ok, do you compare the living standarts of Uzbekistan and that of Germany?
What do you think: what is more actual problem for Uzbekistan - Economy or democracy?
One more factor, that contributes to living standart in Uzbekistan along with the unemployment is that, average european worker is responsible for (at most) 2-3 people: himself and 1-2 children (if you suppose that wife/husband is also working, which is normally the case in Europe, unlike in Uzbekistan), while average uzbek worker is responsible for (at least) 4-5 people: 2-3 children, himself and government. And especially when the labour force rate is really low compared to the population (35% in Uzbekistan and 56% that of in Europe) this issue becomes really vulnerable.

Deciding about in what type of democracy the people should live irrespective of people's opinion itself contradicts the principles of democracy.

[let's roll]

John Nash wrote:
What do you think: what is more actual problem for Uzbekistan - Economy or democracy?

I do believe that that at this stage the former is more important than the latter. Only when an individual tackles his/her immediate problems -- feed children, provide housing, security, education opportunities, and so on (it is another subject how government policy in regard of that issues is being set forth) -- than he/she begins to think seriously about the democracy, political participation and overall politics. Otherwise you may see a version of democracy like one in Pakistan while there is much better and desirable patterns.

bekorlarni beshtasini aytibsiz, dumbuloy!!! :D balki hali Siz ozingiz hech narsaga tayyor emasdirsiz :)

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:)


:)

[Desperado]

John Nash wrote:
What do you think: what is more actual problem for Uzbekistan - Economy or democracy?

I do believe that that at this stage the former is more important than the latter. Only when an individual tackles his/her immediate problems -- feed children, provide housing, security, education opportunities, and so on (it is another subject how government policy in regard of that issues is being set forth) -- than he/she begins to think seriously about the democracy, political participation and overall politics. Otherwise you may see a version of democracy like one in Pakistan while there is much better and desirable patterns.

Dear let's roll, our problem is not necessarily with the economy. We need democracy and freedom more than anything else. A piece of bread and little comfort never can take place of freedom. Otherwise mankind would not sacrifice its soul throughout the history for freedom. Nothing is compareble to the value and feeling of freedom, which is represented by democracy.
Without democratic society you can not make the needed progress at economy. Only correct governing opens the doors for economic development. In a country where exist authoritarianism, dictatorship and tyrany there can not be any sign of prosperity. Corruption and dirty political games will suck the blood of people and cause a pityful poverty.

[_Charosoy_]

[quote="Anonymous"]bekorlarni beshtasini aytibsiz, dumbuloy!!! :D balki hali Siz ozingiz hech narsaga tayyor emasdirsiz :)

Qani bitta faoliyatingiz bilan isbotlangchi??? ;)

[SEON]

??

[user]

We are ready for democracy because our people desperately in need of democracy now, later it might be too late.
I belive by heart that our uzbek people need and want democracy and freedom of speech, and other freedoms. But our government doesn't want it even though they speake about democracy so often.
Any way hungry people will think obout bread and food first then about anything else. It is pity that many and many people hungry now. Go utside and look at people you will not see many happy faces among ordinary people.

[eternity]

"To be or not to be..........." vot v chem vopros!

Bit' v Uzbekistane demokratii ili ne bit'...
Osnovnaya massa naseleniya Uzbekistana projivaet v selskoy oblasti, tochnee budet skazat ne projivaet , a ele kak vijivaet. Tak, predlojite etim ludym xleba snachala, potomuchto na golodniy geludok mozgi tugo soobrajaut, tem bolee o takih tonkih veshah kak "Demokratiya."
Y menya na daniy schet slojilos vesma protivorechivoe mnenie. Vo-pervih Platon v svoem trude "Idialnoe Gosudarstvo", nazivaet demokratiu naihudshim variantom upravleniya. Shoji bili Platon i Cherchill :-)
S drugoy storoni istoriya prevodit nam primeri mirackle of economic growth. For example Chile. Yes, totally dictated By Pinochet , but economic development was the compensation for absence of democracy.
S drugoy storoni, hotelos bi jit v strane i ne boytsya svobodno viskazivat svoe mnenie, no..........
Poetomu, tak dumau predloji nashemu narodu seychas dektataorstvo , no sitoe ono progolosyet ZA.
Drugoe dela vo vseh etih stranah dictatori bili ne alchnie do deneg. K primeru Kemal Ataturk voobshe bil nishim , kak i Stalin.
No nashim tovarisham multimillioneram do nih daleko.........
Eto moe lichnoe mnenie .
Udachi vsem, i pomolimsya za teh kto na puti i v puti k Democrasy

[let's roll]

Gangste wrote:
[Dear let's roll, our problem is not necessarily with the economy. We need democracy and freedom more than anything else. A piece of bread and little comfort never can take place of freedom. Otherwise mankind would not sacrifice its soul throughout the history for freedom. Nothing is compareble to the value and feeling of freedom, which is represented by democracy. Without democratic society you can not make the needed progress at economy. Only correct governing opens the doors for economic development. In a country where exist authoritarianism, dictatorship and tyrany there can not be any sign of prosperity. Corruption and dirty political games will suck the blood of people and cause a pityful poverty.quote]

My friend,

thank you for your feedback and interest towards my humble posting.I subscribe under each and every word in your posting. Yet, there are couple of points which I'd like to draw your attention on. Firstly, if you take a closer look on my response to the original question that I have quoted, it pretty straitforwardly deals with the issue what Uzbekistan needs write now - economy or democracy ? My opinion dealt with that question only, while your posting which -- I again undescore my consent with it -- went far beyond the original question. Secondly, let me even develop your idea -- I think that democracy ideally should go hand in hand with economy. It something like in examples with a bird which uses both wings to keep flying, or with a bike - you gotta use both pedals and manage to maintain balance to keep biking.But in order to fly or to bike you have to have either in-born knowledge (like bird) or experience gained through studies, often very painful (like biker). Project these examples to a democracy -- do we in Uzbekistan have now either in-born knowledge or gained experience of democracy in a real sense of this definition ? You may say --but either way, we have to start at some point --, and I agree again. But before doing this, let me remind you that democracy is not perfect social order by itself, and this is not my notion but that of many great Western statesman like, for example, Winston Churchill. I guess that while striving to embrace an advantages of democracy, we don't have to fall in a blind love with it and remember (and know in advance !)its shortfalls. What I mean is that we have to be realistic -- we can state any idea, but if we are serious, we have to think how to make sure that people would subscribe to it, how this idea would justify their expectation and not let discredit it. I realize that all of these speculation rotate around the idea what came first -- chicken or egg, which makes this subject too extensive to be covered in one or two posting, therefore, let me stop here. Last word: may propose you to visit the following Website which has certain relation to the topic we've been discussing and by itself has a number of interesting and informative articles :www.hermes-press.com. I hope you will enjoy ! All the best, my friend, and thank you for your patience in reading my long posting.
[/quote]

I think this topic can be closed for now

[noodles]

I think this topic can be closed for now

why?

[Free]

Because the uzbek people is not ready for democracy yet.

[noodles]

Uzbek people are ready but the main point is how to plant democracy to our people's mind. Russian Empire could put communistic ideology to our mentality without waiting or asking if we were ready for that or not.

[Mr.Abdullah]

Eski yuzerlarning fikri shunaqa ekan, xo'sh hozirgi yuzerlarimiz nima deb o'ylashadi? Siz demokratiyaga ishonasizmi? :)

[Don Corleone]

Oldin bir uzizdan eshiteylikchi JANOB Abdullah.

[SAMARKANDI!]

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:)


:)


I would say screw democracy,

thank you too :D

[Mr.Abdullah]

Oldin bir uzizdan eshiteylikchi JANOB Abdullah.

Agar sizda qanaqadir fikrlar bo'lsa tortinmay aytavering, man balki keyinroq aytarman. :)

[Masanori]

nothing has changed so far...

[Kamina]

Eski yuzerlarning fikri shunaqa ekan, xo'sh hozirgi yuzerlarimiz nima deb o'ylashadi? Siz demokratiyaga ishonasizmi? :)

вактингиз жуда бемалолга ухшайди, эътибор бердим, эски эски мавзуларни кидириб топиб куймокдасиз:)

[Mr.Abdullah]

вактингиз жуда бемалолга ухшайди, эътибор бердим, эски эски мавзуларни кидириб топиб куймокдасиз:)

Agar eski mavzulardan manga qiziq tuyulganlari xhiqib qolsa nima ham qilardik? :)

[Anvarhon]

демократияни ким кандай тушуниши хакида манга шахсан эрон президенти ахмади нажоднинг фикри екади."хакикий демократия европада эмас балки осиеда яъни бизда .факат осиеда (марказий осие назарда тутиляпти.)дехкон фарзанди давлат бошлиги булиши мумкин.европада ва америкада кучада усган бола кучада колади."
далил:туркманистон собик президенти мархум с.ниезов.етимхонада тарбия олган.тожикистон эмомали рахмонов колхозчи оиласидан.акаси 1994 йилгача тракторчи эди(э.рахмонов олий совет раиси эди).собик совет иттифоки ва эрон ирок афгонистон покистон хитой давлатларида бунга мисол куп.демократия деганда шу бугунги "цивилизованный мир"нинг дуне караши булса узбекистонга бунинг кераги йук деб уйлайман.

[Mr.Abdullah]

демократияни ким кандай тушуниши хакида манга шахсан эрон президенти ахмади нажоднинг фикри екади."хакикий демократия европада эмас балки осиеда яъни бизда .факат осиеда (марказий осие назарда тутиляпти.)дехкон фарзанди давлат бошлиги булиши мумкин.европада ва америкада кучада усган бола кучада колади."
далил:туркманистон собик президенти мархум с.ниезов.етимхонада тарбия олган.тожикистон эмомали рахмонов колхозчи оиласидан.акаси 1994 йилгача тракторчи эди(э.рахмонов олий совет раиси эди).собик совет иттифоки ва эрон ирок афгонистон покистон хитой давлатларида бунга мисол куп.демократия деганда шу бугунги "цивилизованный мир"нинг дуне караши булса узбекистонга бунинг кераги йук деб уйлайман.

Eronda Homayniy "demokratiyasi" emasmidi? :)

[Anvarhon]

Eronda Homayniy "demokratiyasi" emasmidi? :)
Демократия деб мен асл маъноси яъни халк хокимияти деб тушунаман.Оятулло Хумайний уз Исломий демократиялари билан колок Эрон шохлигини хозирги Дуненинг 20та ривожланаетган давлатлар каторига олиб чикди.

[Mr.Abdullah]

Демократия деб мен асл маъноси яъни халк хокимияти деб тушунаман.Оятулло Хумайний уз Исломий демократиялари билан колок Эрон шохлигини хозирги Дуненинг 20та ривожланаетган давлатлар каторига олиб чикди.

Shu joyda sizning gapingizga qo'shilaman, dunyoning 20 taligigami yo'qmi, ammo shubhasiz Eron shoh tuzumidan keyin har tomonlama rivojlanishga erishdi. Eng asosiysi ular chin MUSTAQILLIKKA erishishdi. :)

[fidis]

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????


:)

vertikal'naya :-)

[Dilya87]

I don't know about you guys but Im ready for a democracy =)))

[Borz_man]

O'zbekiston proehal demokratiyu deb qo'ymabslade :)...

[satik]

Odamlar demokratiya desa, ummon ortidagi bitta ukkag'ar esimga tushib kulgim kelovradi.
Mayli hali yoshmiz, ko'ngilda umid uchqunlari o'chmagan...

[PainKiller]

A Bizda uje demakratiya bo'bo'ganu. :D

[idiom]

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:)


:)

Primer?=> Yujnaya i Severnaya Koreya. Ya uveren chto v Severnoi toje orut chto oni ne gotovy ili choto napodobie. Ili GDR i FRG. Kitai i Taiwan.i td i tp. Delo ne v demokratii ili drugoi stroi. Glavnoe tut obshestvo gde est uvajenie k cheloveku i obshestvu. V UZ nas est uje demokratia. Nado dobavit svobodu lichnosti i uvajenia ego prav.IMO

[Jamshut&Revshan]

господа, узбекистан уже прошёл путь демократии, едем дальше, демократия в современном мире уже считается отстоем :d

[Don Corleone]

Nima keragi bor bizga shu "Dirmokratiya"ni. Ertaga 18 yashar bola ota-onasini sudga bersa meni uylantirishmoqchi bular majburlab, deb.

[Anvarhon]

господа, узбекистан уже прошёл путь демократии, едем дальше, демократия в современном мире уже считается отстоем :d
Да проспали демократию, опять власть меняется.Пора шапку менять.

[Mr "H"]

it depends on what kinda democracy you are talking about. if it is Western democracy, we are not ready for it and i strongly beleive that we don't need that kinda democracy, that's for sure. 'cuz uzbeks never sue their parents in any case!!!

We need "SHARQONA DEMOKRATIYA" OR "UZBEKCHA DEMOKRATIYA":lol::lol::lol: taking all our traditions and culture into account...

[Mr.Abdullah]

it depends on what kinda democracy you are talking about. if it is Western democracy, we are not ready for it and i strongly beleive that we don't need that kinda democracy, that's for sure. 'cuz uzbeks never sue their parents in any case!!!

We need "SHARQONA DEMOKRATIYA" OR "UZBEKCHA DEMOKRATIYA":lol::lol::lol: taking all our traditions and culture into account...

Eto i yest' to o chom govoryat nashe "svetloye" rukovodstvo... :lol:

[Don Corleone]

LOLLLLLL, sharqona demokratiya ekan. Hali Malayziyani Mahatiriniyam aytarsilar we need "Guided Democracy", deb

[eusko]

при чем тут демократия и традиции? одно другому не мешает.
если человек хочет соблюдать традиции, то ради бога. на то она и демократия, что дает свободу выбора.
я лично не вижу причин, по которым узбеки не готовы к демократии.
конечно стране нужна сильная власть, но не та которая будет творить беззаконие, наживаться на своем народе и запугивать его, а таб которая будет жестко бороться с коррупцией и делать все, для процветания узбекистана.

[eusko]

при чем тут демократия и традиции? одно другому не мешает.
если человек хочет соблюдать традиции, то ради бога. на то она и демократия, что дает свободу выбора.
я лично не вижу причин, по которым узбеки не готовы к демократии.
конечно стране нужна сильная власть, но не та которая будет творить беззаконие, наживаться на своем народе и запугивать его, а таб которая будет жестко бороться с коррупцией и делать все, для процветания узбекистана.

[Uzbekistan2010]

O'z xatolari ustidan kulishni bilmaydigan xalqni dermokratiyada yashashga orgatib bolmaydi

[nelegal]

Yoq uzb.ga demokratiya bulmiydi. Bizlar molmizu, bizlarga chupon kerak. Hohlasa boqadi, hohlasa yuq, kup baqirsak uradi, ulduradi. Hamma odamlar odamdek, biza molmiza... Tabriklayman urtoqlar! :)

[eusko]

O'z xatolari ustidan kulishni bilmaydigan xalqni dermokratiyada yashashga orgatib bolmaydi

При чем тут умение смеяться над собой и демократия? И вообще, как можно обобщать и говорить о народе в целом. Вообще мало людей способны над собой смеяться.

[jummi]

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:)


:)
ДЕМОКРАТИЯ ЭТО то ЧТО НАЗЫВАЕТ ЗАПАД свою стратегию завоевать чужие ресурсы в том числе богатство узбекских, русских и т.д. земель. Вот Америка говорит нет в Ираке демократии будем строить там хорошую демократию... и что?! сколько невинных мусульман, людей погибло. Но нефть из ирака был продан за копейки. У них пока нет храбрости в открытую пойти с русскими в войну а то они как хотят сибирь как хотят газ нефть золото из россии!
Думаете в сша демократия?!
где?! если почти половина народа голосует за обаму (или McCain) и остальная часть должна жить в полном несогласованности причем годами! Потому что они за него неголосовали
ну, где демократия?
А унас как где по ихнему нет демократии: народ голосует не голосует будет тот кто сильнейший в политике то есть каримов, путин, т.д. а тому кто слабее не велено и это правильно! Все эти слова не менталитет не философия восточная а есть реальность.
жду мнений

[eusko]

jummi
Полностью согласен по поводу стратегии США.
Потом в США конечно нет настоящей демократии. Ну а половина за Обаму, другая половина за МакКейна - это нормально. А Вы что хотели, чтоб все за одного голосовали?
Но мы не должны принимать США как какой то эталон. Мне нравится демократия в скандинавских странах в общем-то например. В Швеции даже был референдум по принятию или не принятию евро как нац. валюты. А в странах типа Испании, никто у народа не спросил даже. Приняли и все.
Демократия в Узбекистане может быть. Но это не гарант хорошей жизни и стабильности. Все зависит от человеческого фактора, от того, кто управляет страной. Но демократия все таки не дает верхушке безгранично пользоваться своей властью, и это плюс.
Президент не уважает принципы демократии, которые документально изложены в Конституции страны. Он добрался до власти и делает все, что там удержаться. Народ уже запуган и боится высказывать свою точку зрения и открыто выражать протест.
Когда придет человек, уважающий свой народ и любящий свою страну, тогда и наступит демократия сама собой. Такой человек будет уважать закон и конституцию.
Кароче надоело писать. Пойду печенье с конфетами есть.

[Rover]

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:)


:)

Yaxshi mavzu.
Evropada ham demokratiya kelganiga ancha bulgani yuq, 50 yil holos. Hozir ham Evropa davlatlarida demokratiya darajasi turli hil.
Uzb. endigina mustaqil buldi, shuning uchun demokratiya harakati faqat kitobda qolaveradi.
Bizni urf-odat-madaniyatimizga yaqin bulgan Turkiya halqini misol qilib olsak, shu kunlarda u yerda demokratiya emas Islom halifati tizimiga kelish osonroq. Bizda ham shunaqa deb uylayman.

Demokratiya bu halq hokimiyati, halq davlat darajasida fikr qilish qobiliyatiga erishsa demokratiyaga erishasiz.

[Anvarhon]

демократия — это худший способ управления страной, если не считать тех способов, к которым до сих пор прибегало человечество.сэр уинстон черчилль.
это несправедливо когда одна страна контролирует такие ресурсы.кондолиза райс.
(без комментариев)

[kolyathedj]

Manga ham juda yoqib qoldi bu mavzu,
shuning uchun uz fikrimni bildirmoqchiman. Umuman olib qaraganda Uzbekiston demokratiyaga tayyor emas deyish mening fikrimcha 30% tug'ri. Bu yerda gap tayyor yoki tayyor maslikda emas. Uzbekiston halqi butun umr demokratiyasiz yahsab kelgan ular demokratiyaning qnaqaligini bilmaydi hali. Agar demokratiyani uzbekistonga havola etsak, uylaymanki Uzb xalqiga bu juda yoqadi, chunki demokratiyaning foydasi juda ko'p. To'g'ri, bir kechada bu narsani amalga oshirish mumkin emas. Bu narsa yangi boshliq va yangi sistema orqali amalga oshirilishi mumkin faqat. Agar usha yangi boshliq haqiqiy inson bulib, yuzaki emas balkim haqiqatdan ham xalqim deb o'z umrini bag'hslashga tayyor bo'lsa u odam Uzbekistonimizni to'g'ri yo'lga boshlab berishi mumkin. Ana undan keyin xalqimizning ongi ham fikr yuritishi ham o'zgaradi, va undan keyin demokratiya yo'lodan chiqish juda qiyin bo'ladi, chunki uje xalq bu narsaga yo'l qo'ymaydi.
Bu Shunchaki mening fikrim holos.

[Uzbekxonim]

Y a dumayu Uzbekskiy narod eshe ne gotov k demokratii, kak ne govoryat chto nam nujna demokratiya u nas net demokratii,, vse taki,, bolshinstvo priviklo jit po ukazki.. i kak govoryat Vdrug esli daje budet demokratiya (ya v etom ochen somnevayus) lyudi ne smogut s etim spravitsya.. Dlya etogo nado eshe neskolko let.. i lyudey nado k etomu gotovit poetapna
Uvajaemiyi uchastniki Foruma pozvolte zadat vopros vam

KAKAYA DEMOKRATIYA NUJNA DLYA UZBEKISTANA ??????(esli bi vi priveli bi primer imenno chto nado dlya Uzbekistana vashe lichnoye mneniye)


zaranee sposibo:)


:)

u kajdoy strani svoya demokratiya, nevozjno dat odnaznichniy otvet. ya schitayu shto vpervuyu ochered narod nado nauchit svobodno mislit, a pravyashuyu verhushku - tomu shto oni po idee demokratii doljni slujit narodu. i samoe glavnoe i narod i pravitelstvo doljni nauchitsya uvajat i ispolnyat zakoni.

[SAMARKANDI!]

u kajdoy strani svoya demokratiya, nevozjno dat odnaznichniy otvet. ya schitayu shto vpervuyu ochered narod nado nauchit svobodno mislit, a pravyashuyu verhushku - tomu shto oni po idee demokratii doljni slujit narodu. i samoe glavnoe i narod i pravitelstvo doljni nauchitsya uvajat i ispolnyat zakoni.

Core principle of Democracy is the say of the majority (which distinguishes it from other Ideologies), cuz other ground values that democracy claims can already be found in many other systems, ideally such as Islam. But flowing with the majority has been already proven countless times that its extremely lethal and destructive.

[UzLand]

u kajdoy strani svoya demokratiya, nevozjno dat odnaznichniy otvet. Ya schitayu shto vpervuyu ochered narod nado nauchit svobodno mislit, a pravyashuyu verhushku - tomu shto oni po idee demokratii doljni slujit narodu. I samoe glavnoe i narod i pravitelstvo doljni nauchitsya uvajat i ispolnyat zakoni.

демократия, как концепция, имеет единую форму. не может быть другой демократии, принципы одни и те же - свобода слова, свободы мысли, свобода прессы. как эти вещи могут быть разными в разных странах? люди то везде одинаковые.

просто, когда говоришь демократия, есть стереотип - сразу думать про америку или запад. надо не о странах думать, а о единых принципах.

заявление, что узбекистан не готов к демократии - верно. форму тому явное подтверждение. люди, находящиеся за рубежом и в основном на западе, не могут нормально общаться, что же говорить о тех, кто в узбекистане, кто не видел всех тех свобод, которые мы видим за рубежом.

[lilbit]

демократия, как концепция, имеет единую форму. не может быть другой демократии, принципы одни и те же - свобода слова, свободы мысли, свобода прессы. как эти вещи могут быть разными в разных странах? люди то везде одинаковые.

просто, когда говоришь демократия, есть стереотип - сразу думать про америку или запад. надо не о странах думать, а о единых принципах.

заявление, что узбекистан не готов к демократии - верно. форму тому явное подтверждение. люди, находящиеся за рубежом и в основном на западе, не могут нормально общаться, что же говорить о тех, кто в узбекистане, кто не видел всех тех свобод, которые мы видим за рубежом.
sogalsen!

No, ponyatie svobodi u kajdogo raznoe.

Dlya menya demokratiya eto 100% ispolnenie zakonov prinyatih v strane vsemi eyo grajdanami. A vot kogda nachinaetsya ya sil'niy i mne vse poh, to eto uje avtoritarizm. Kstati, nashe zakonodatel'stvo ochen' demokratichnoe, a vot ego ispolnenie - eto . . .

[MUHLIS]

Bahona holos bu gaplar......

[Delf]

Core principle of Democracy is the say of the majority (which distinguishes it from other Ideologies), cuz other ground values that democracy claims can already be found in many other systems, ideally such as Islam. But flowing with the majority has been already proven countless times that its extremely lethal and destructive.
Except in cases with US, Europe, Japan, Korea and every other developed country which provides it's citizens with freedom and prosperity unseen in any other country.

Delf.

[MUHLIS]

elektoral demokratiya va liberal demokratiya ancha farqli tushunchalar.
elektoral demokratiya aristotel aytganidek tyranny of the masses.

[UzLand]

dlya menya demokratiya eto 100% ispolnenie zakonov prinyatih v strane vsemi eyo grajdanami.

кто же с этим спорит? согласен, только кто их соблюдает

[Uzbekxonim]

демократия, как концепция, имеет единую форму. не может быть другой демократии, принципы одни и те же - свобода слова, свободы мысли, свобода прессы. как эти вещи могут быть разными в разных странах? люди то везде одинаковые.

просто, когда говоришь демократия, есть стереотип - сразу думать про америку или запад. надо не о странах думать, а о единых принципах.

заявление, что узбекистан не готов к демократии - верно. форму тому явное подтверждение. люди, находящиеся за рубежом и в основном на западе, не могут нормально общаться, что же говорить о тех, кто в узбекистане, кто не видел всех тех свобод, которые мы видим за рубежом.

naskolko ya pomnyu demokratiya v perevode s latinskogo eto vlast naroda, a teper sravnite demokratiyu amerikanskuyu i uzbekskuyu, raznie ne pravda li?:lol: nu, horosho sravnim shto-nibud bolee prizemlennoe, evropeyskuyu i amerikanskuyu demokratiyu, dumaete tam stranoy pravit narod cherez svoih delegatov? sovsem net, eto prosto bogataya i vlastnaya elita. tak chem je shtati i eu luchshe uzb-na? paraleli proveli?

tak shto u kajdoy strani svoya demokratiya, a ta o kotoroy vi govorite v chistom vide so vsemu prisushimi ey printsipami v nashem mire ne sushestvuet. cheers.

[kolyathedj]

Demokratiya qayerda bulmasin bir hil bulishi kerak. unga mal qilish esa turlichadir har bir mamlakatda. Lekin manosi bir hil. Yo'qorida aytilgandek : "свобода слова, свободы мысли, свобода прессы" Mana shu printsipga rioya qilinsa uje boshqacha. Menimcha Uzbekistonda yoqoridagilarni ikkitasi mavjud emas agar hammais bo'lmasa.

[lilbit]

naskolko ya pomnyu demokratiya v perevode s latinskogo eto vlast naroda, a teper sravnite demokratiyu amerikanskuyu i uzbekskuyu, raznie ne pravda li?:lol: nu, horosho sravnim shto-nibud bolee prizemlennoe, evropeyskuyu i amerikanskuyu demokratiyu, dumaete tam stranoy pravit narod cherez svoih delegatov? sovsem net, eto prosto bogataya i vlastnaya elita. tak chem je shtati i eu luchshe uzb-na? paraleli proveli?

tak shto u kajdoy strani svoya demokratiya, a ta o kotoroy vi govorite v chistom vide so vsemu prisushimi ey printsipami v nashem mire ne sushestvuet. cheers.

primer Obami i Sarkozi - eto kak predstavitel' ne eliti stanovitsya rukovoditelem strani. Vse ostal'nie razmishleniya vsego lish; insinuacii na temi kto, gde, otkuda.

V Yaponii voobshe krizis vlasti, lyudi boyatsya brat' na sebya otvetstvennost' za upravlenie stranoi (predidushie smeni prem'erov, iz-za ih resignation).

Uzbekistan otlichaetsya tem, chto klali vse na deistvuyushee v tom je Uzbekistane zakonodatel'stvo, pri chem klali s bashni.

[UzLand]

naskolko ya pomnyu demokratiya v perevode s latinskogo eto vlast naroda, a teper sravnite demokratiyu amerikanskuyu i uzbekskuyu, raznie ne pravda li?:lol: Nu, horosho sravnim shto-nibud bolee prizemlennoe, evropeyskuyu i amerikanskuyu demokratiyu, dumaete tam stranoy pravit narod cherez svoih delegatov? Sovsem net, eto prosto bogataya i vlastnaya elita. Tak chem je shtati i eu luchshe uzb-na? Paraleli proveli?

Tak shto u kajdoy strani svoya demokratiya, a ta o kotoroy vi govorite v chistom vide so vsemu prisushimi ey printsipami v nashem mire ne sushestvuet. Cheers.

думаю, вся проблема в том, что мы даем демократии (общее понятие) название - американская, европейская, восточная. если сможет отойти от этого и прийти к ее первоначальному значению и определению, то думаю, все будет хоккей.

[Uzbekxonim]

primer Obami i Sarkozi - eto kak predstavitel' ne eliti stanovitsya rukovoditelem strani. Vse ostal'nie razmishleniya vsego lish; insinuacii na temi kto, gde, otkuda.
.

a do togo kak balatirovatsya dumaete sarkozi i obama ne bili pravyashey elitoy? bez ih deneg i predidushey pozitsii oni daje v kandidati ne proshli bi. poprobuy obidenniy amerikanets 30 let (prodavets naprimer) hotya bi v spisok kandidatov v presidenti pospast, ne realno ne pravda li...

[Uzbekxonim]

думаю, вся проблема в том, что мы даем демократии (общее понятие) название - американская, европейская, восточная. если сможет отойти от этого и прийти к ее первоначальному значению и определению, то думаю, все будет хоккей.

v etom to i problema - demokratii v pervonachalnom opredelenii i znachenii nigde net.

[Rigonda]

Azizlar, demokratiya, hozirgi O'zbekistondagi qonun chiqaruvchi, ijro etuvchi va SUD hokimiyati uchun ATOM BOMBASI dek xavfli narsa bo'lsa, oddiy xalq esa uni allaqachon SAROB deb o'ylaydigan bo'lib qolgan.
Qurbonlik, siyosiy, iqtisodiy va albatta huquqiy bilimga boy yosh kadrlar kerak O'zbekistonga.
Qani aytinglar XONIMLAR VA JANOBLAR birortangiz O'zbekistonda turib SNB dan qo'rqmay miting uyushtira olasizlarmi? buyam demokratiya, qonunda bor,
....... HAMMA IN-INIGA KIRIB ULGURDIMI?
Demak haqsiz Charosxon demokratiyaga hech kim tayyor emas

[lilbit]

a do togo kak balatirovatsya dumaete sarkozi i obama ne bili pravyashey elitoy? bez ih deneg i predidushey pozitsii oni daje v kandidati ne proshli bi. poprobuy obidenniy amerikanets 30 let (prodavets naprimer) hotya bi v spisok kandidatov v presidenti pospast, ne realno ne pravda li...vi ponimaete chto napisali? Chelovek, voobshe bez sobstvennogo mneniya . . . ili s mneniem, kotoroe slojilos' vchera idet ballotirovat'sya. Etot chelovek elektorat, a ne tot, za kogo poidut golosovat'. Ot togo, chto on prodavec, ni mne, ni vam ni jarko ni holodno. DOljna bit' poziciya cheloveka, partii, bol'shinstva, chto izmenyat' etot mir.

Sarkozi bil immigrantom vo Francii. Pochitaite biografiyu. On ne stal srazu prizedentom kak tol'ko perebralsya v etu stranu.


Est' opredelnniy puti v jizni, kotorie privodyat tuda, kuda sujdeno. VOt esli prodavec, prorabotav 30 let v sfere torgovli, do sih por ostalsya prodavcom, to on i ostanetsya prodavcom. Drugoi primer, Reigan, Swarzeneger. Akteri! Kakie oni k cherti bili pravyashei elitoi, prejde chem stali ballotirovat'sya v presidenti, gubernatori?

Kstati, v etom plane est' eshe i primer Hitlera, obichniy chelovek, efreitor, ch'i idei (idiotskie) sdelali ego pravitelem Germanii. Pri chem sdelali eto v nachale demokraticheskim putem.

[Kolobok]

узбекский народ не готов или узбекское правительство?

[lilbit]

Koren' vsei problemi - korrupciya. I poka ona budet, a ona budet, to nichego ne sdvinetsya s mertvoi tochki. Nazovite mne hot' odnu stranu, gde i korupciya v takih masshtabah i demokratiya sushestvuyu vmeste?

[Mr.Abdullah]

Koren' vsei problemi - korrupciya. I poka ona budet, a ona budet, to nichego ne sdvinetsya s mertvoi tochki. Nazovite mne hot' odnu stranu, gde i korupciya v takih masshtabah i demokratiya sushestvuyu vmeste?

Hmmda soglasen s etim, kak je mojno borotsya s korrupciyey v nashem sluchaye? Vozmojno li eto?

[lilbit]

Hmmda soglasen s etim, kak je mojno borotsya s korrupciyey v nashem sluchaye? Vozmojno li eto?nevozmnojno!

V strane, gde korrupciya - uje element kul'turi, nichego nel'zya sdelat' bez ucheta samoi korrupcii.

[Mr.Abdullah]

nevozmnojno!

V strane, gde korrupciya - uje element kul'turi, nichego nel'zya sdelat' bez ucheta samoi korrupcii.

Aha, ya toje soglasen s etim.
Vopros: Oznachayet li eto chto nujno kak minimum pomenyat' vlast' i nedopustit' prixoda "korrupcionerov"?

[lilbit]

Aha, ya toje soglasen s etim.
Vopros: Oznachayet li eto chto nujno kak minimum pomenyat' vlast' i nedopustit' prixoda "korrupcionerov"?
ti navernoe ne ponyal! v lyubom sluchae u valsti okajutsya korrupcioneri. Daje esli budet revolyuciya, to k vlasti pridut te je samie, tol'ko s drugimi licami. Eto odna iz prichin, po kotoroi ya protiv smeni rukovodstva v strane.

[Mr.Abdullah]

ti navernoe ne ponyal! v lyubom sluchae u valsti okajutsya korrupcioneri. Daje esli budet revolyuciya, to k vlasti pridut te je samie, tol'ko s drugimi licami. Eto odna iz prichin, po kotoroi ya protiv smeni rukovodstva v strane.

Hmm ne bud' takim pessimistichnim, ne vsyo na svete vechnoye. :)

[lilbit]

Hmm ne bud' takim pessimistichnim, ne vsyo na svete vechnoye. :)
za isklyucheniem korrupcii ;)

[Mr.Abdullah]

za isklyucheniem korrupcii ;)

No takix porokov mnogo, protiv nix nujno borotsya borotsya, borotsya, a ne opuskat' golovu i miritsya...

[lilbit]

No takix porokov mnogo, protiv nix nujno borotsya borotsya, borotsya, a ne opuskat' golovu i miritsya...kak borot'sya?

[Mr.Abdullah]

kak borot'sya?

vot ob etom stoit porazmishlyat'. vsem. i nayti sil primenit' resheniya. vsyo ne tak prosto, no ne nado zaranee nastraivatsya pessemistoichno, zachem togda jit' voobshe, ne tak li Lil?

[lilbit]

vot ob etom stoit porazmishlyat'. vsem. i nayti sil primenit' resheniya. vsyo ne tak prosto, no ne nado zaranee nastraivatsya pessemistoichno, zachem togda jit' voobshe, ne tak li Lil?
jit' ne obezatel'no dlya togo, chto b iskorenit' korupciyu v Uzbekistane. Po krainei mere ya ne Don Ki Hot chto b borot'sua v vetryanimi mel'nicami.

V mire stol'ko prekrasnogo!:)

[Mr.Abdullah]

jit' ne obezatel'no dlya togo, chto b iskorenit' korupciyu v Uzbekistane. Po krainei mere ya ne Don Ki Hot chto b borot'sua v vetryanimi mel'nicami.

V mire stol'ko prekrasnogo!:)

Da da, mir takoy, suroviy, bud' gotov borotsya i s melnitsami! :cool:

Da, v mire stolko prekrasnogo, no yest' mozoli. No etim i prekrasen mir, nikogda ne budet skuchno. :)

[kolyathedj]

No takix porokov mnogo, protiv nix nujno borotsya borotsya, borotsya, a ne opuskat' golovu i miritsya...

Kurashish kerak deymiz lekin Uzbekistonda turib hech kim bu ishga qo'l urmaydi. O'zbekistonda yahsaganda agar orqa baquvvat bulmasa yoki juda katta pul bulmasa odmalar qo'rqib yashaydi. Ularga davay kurashamiz haqiqat uchun yoki demokratiya uchun desang ular "ee qo'y ,men kichnkina odam man, bolalarim bor, mani tinch qo'yishsa bo'ldi bir balo qilib oilamga bir tika non topib kelaman" deydi. Sababi shuki bizning halq qattiq kontrol ostida hayot kechirib kelayapti. Hali hech qanday bo'rchakka tiqilgani yo'q, agarda davlat kontroly haddan oshib ketsa, ve halq bo'rchakka tiqilgandek bo'lsa keyin har qanday kurashga tayyor bo'adi. Faraz qiling birortamizni biror kishi burchakka qissa qocha olmagan vaziyatda nima qilishga toyyorsiz, nima bol'sa ham yerga yotmaysiz. Qo'lizga tushgan narsa bilan kurashasiz. Tak shto situatsiya pochti bir hil

[Compromise]

Kurashish kerak deymiz lekin Uzbekistonda turib hech kim bu ishga qo'l urmaydi. O'zbekistonda yahsaganda agar orqa baquvvat bulmasa yoki juda katta pul bulmasa odmalar qo'rqib yashaydi. Ularga davay kurashamiz haqiqat uchun yoki demokratiya uchun desang ular "ee qo'y ,men kichnkina odam man, bolalarim bor, mani tinch qo'yishsa bo'ldi bir balo qilib oilamga bir tika non topib kelaman" deydi. Sababi shuki bizning halq qattiq kontrol ostida hayot kechirib kelayapti. Hali hech qanday bo'rchakka tiqilgani yo'q, agarda davlat kontroly haddan oshib ketsa, ve halq bo'rchakka tiqilgandek bo'lsa keyin har qanday kurashga tayyor bo'adi. Faraz qiling birortamizni biror kishi burchakka qissa qocha olmagan vaziyatda nima qilishga toyyorsiz, nima bol'sa ham yerga yotmaysiz. Qo'lizga tushgan narsa bilan kurashasiz. Tak shto situatsiya pochti bir hil
Siz davlat bilan kurashmang foydasi yuq, avvalo uzingiz va atrofdagilar bilan kurashing va shu korrupciay yomon ekanligini tushuntiring. Kimdir shuni boshlash ekrak va ohirgacha olib borish kerak keyin asta sekin uzgarish buladi. Inankeyin sizni gapingizga qisman uqshilgan va qushilmagan holda bir buyuk insonni aytgan gapini yozaman bu yerga ismi shariflari esmida yuq aytgan gaplari esimda bor :uups:.
Halqni zulm qilish quzgatmaydi balki unga zulm qilinayotganini angalsagina kutariladi. Shuing uchun avval tushinish lozim keyin kutarilish ;)