Россия в истории Узбекистана. Враг или Друг? [Archive] - Uzbekistan Online Forum

Siege

03-12-2003, 02:12 AM

Новые узбекские учебники по истории имеют антироссийскую направленность
Немецкая волна, Юрий Черногаев, 12.03.2003
В столице Узбекистана прошла международная конференция, посвященная проблеме объективности в истории.

"Беспрецедентная антироссийская направленность" - так охарактеризовал учебники по истории для школ Узбекистана посол России в республике Дмитрий Рюриков. Посол выступил на прошедшей во вторник в Ташкенте Международной научной конференции, посвященной проблемам объективности в истории. Учебник истории для узбекских школьников, как говорилось на конференции, затмевает реальную действительность. В нем много говорится о том, как русские обворовывали местных жителей, убивали женщин, детей. Термин "русские шпионы", например, приводится в учебнике для детей 292 раза.

По словам российского посла, недавно в связи с этим был сделан запрос в министерство народного образования Узбекистана, но пока школьники по-прежнему учатся по этому учебнику. Против новой интерпретации национальной истории выступили на конференции и узбекские ученые.

Профессор Ташкентского университета по мировой экономике и дипломатии Гога Хидоятов не согласен с превращением участников басмаческого движения 20-30 годов прошлого века в борцов за независимость Узбекистана. Как утверждает профессор, в Центральной Азии в то время было до 180 отрядов басмачей, но целью их была вовсе не независимость, а свобода торговли. Профессор Хидоятов также опровергает содержащуюся в учебнике информацию о том, что Россия проводила границы национальных образований с единственной целью – поссорить народы. В частности, считает профессор, когда Иран в 19-м веке претендовал на территорию до Амударьи, именно Россия установила нынешнюю границу, в пределах которой лежит, между прочим, нынешняя Туркмения.

Примечания ИА "Фергана.Ру"

Сообщения об антироссийских тенденциях в узбекистанском образовании появились не вчера. Еще в июле прошлого года портал "Русь Единая" писал:

"В Ташкенте состоялось "историческое" совещание директоров школ, на котором собравшиеся получили несколько шокирующих указаний. А именно: изъять и уничтожить в школьных библиотеках учебники, изданные в свое время в Москве издательством "Просвещение", строго следить и не допускать, чтобы эти учебники из дома приносились учениками и уж тем более – учителями. А в случае нарушения этого приказа непокорные педагоги должны быть немедленно уволены.

Поясним, что речь идет не об учебниках по истории, обществоведению и литературе – те в списки запрещенных попали еще в начале 90-х годов, – а об учебных пособиях по естественным и точным наукам, к политике и политическим изменениям последнего десятилетия не имеющим ни малейшего отношения. Что же осталось в списке разрешенного? Во-первых, издаваемые в Узбекистане учебники местных авторов и, во-вторых, весьма ограниченное число российских учебников, которые планируется использовать в школах лишь временно, пока не появятся их узбекские аналоги. Но и с ними, вроде бы "разрешенными", надлежит провести ряд манипуляций: на титульном листе следует вычеркнуть – можно просто шариковой ручкой – место издания и название издательства, а еще лучше – вырвать титульный лист вообще.

В числе парадоксальных нелепостей – попадание в черный список российского учебника по математике для 7-го класса, главным автором которого является профессор МГУ, выходец из Узбекистана и узбек по национальности. Логично было бы ожидать, что высокие узбекские просвещенцы должны испытывать гордость за своего земляка, учебник которого в России переиздавался семь раз, и дать этому учебнику "зеленый свет", ан нет – "у узбеков собственная гордость, на российское мы смотрим свысока".

По многочисленным рассказам очевидцев – ребят и учителей – инспекции проходили так: в класс на урок приходила комиссия из 2-3 человек и требовала от учеников, чтобы они предъявили все, что у них находилось в школьных сумках. Потом начиналось обследование-обыск всех шкафов на предмет выяснения, не прячется ли там "крамольная" учебная литература, изданная в России. И не дай Бог, если таковая находилась! Разъярена, например, была комиссия, когда на столе преподавателя литературы был обнаружен томик стихов советских поэтов.

Но самое большое потрясение испытали учителя и ученики ташкентской школы № 19, когда пришедший сюда сам начальник ГУНО столицы Узбекистана Ислам Закиров с негодованием и яростью на глазах ребят и педагогов стал в клочья рвать обнаруженный сборник рассказов Константина Паустовского.

Все происшедшее в ташкентских школах выглядит особенно странным на фоне постоянных призывов Ислама Каримова, называющего Россию стратегическим партнером Узбекистана, ко всем властным структурам страны возобновить сотрудничество по всему периметру узбекско-российских взаимоотношений, уделив особое внимание гуманитарной сфере. Вот как далеко может завести чиновничье самоуправство." (Альберт Морозов, Ташкент)

03-12-2003, 04:11 AM

Prochitav eto chestno govorya net daje slov chtobi virazit chustva, odni bukvi. Ya uchilas v russkoy shkole, I chestno govorya blagodarna svoim roditelym za eto reshenie. Znanie kotorie Ya poluchila v russkoy shkole, Ya bi ne kogda ne poluchila v Uzbekskoy.Uchitelya moih druzey iz uzbekskoy shkoli postoyanno uhodili na svadbi i challari vo vremya zanytiy ili spletnichali i obsujdali shmotki. V russkoy shkole, prepodavateli bili y nas evrei, russkie niu i dr. nacionalnosti kot. ochen shepetilno otnosilis k rabote. Kstati nasha uchitelnica uzbekskogo Yazika bila prosto super, tak chto mi prakticheski v takom je ob'eme izuchali i uzbek literature.A krome etogo Tolstogo "Voina i Mir", Dostoevskogo, Pushkina. Po etim knigam inostranci shodyt prosto s uma, a u nas rvut v klochya. Gospodin Islam Zakirov, Nachalnik Guno Uzbekistana, uverena ni odnoy prelichnoy knigi to ne prochital, kupil svoe kreslo i dumaet vse etim skazano. svinya, izvinite za virajenie, knigi rvat, pridurok, sam ne odnoy takoy strochki napisat ne smojet, voobshe chto tvoritsya. Uchebniki nashih avtorov, polnoe "GOVNO" po krainey mere po economike. Vse skativaut s inostrannih uchebnikov,otkritoy formi plagiat i vidaut za svoe, zdes bi ih za shkirku i na solnishke povesili,a u nas publikyut, chto za dela?

Uchit'sya,uchit'sya i eshe raz uchit'sya
Lenin

Kstati Mi izuchaem kapital Marksa, no eto konechno ne v Uzbekistane, tam vse davno ego izuchili i vibrasili, apridurki inostranci stavyt ego v vishih business schools :evil:

Gladiator

03-12-2003, 04:21 AM

Dear Guest,

I can't agree with you at all. yes, you are right when you say the education system in uzbek schools was and is worse than in russian schools. you are right when you say that the teachers went to "challari" while russians were loyal to their responsibility. BUT you can't compare all the uzbek schools in the city and you have no right to say they are all suck.I shouldn't generalize the staff.

Gladiator

03-12-2003, 04:27 AM

Russian occupation started in 1853. they needed more than 30 years to take under their control the whole territory of Central Asia.and plus 70 years of kommunism. We should cooperate with Russia but shouldn't forget our history related with russians

nemets

03-12-2003, 04:29 AM

Ya konechno v shoke tozhe. :evil: No nesmotrya na vsyo eto, mnogie po prezhnemu doma zanimayutsya po starym ili novym rossiiskim uchebnikam. Nu eto kasaetsya estestvennyh nauk. A vot s literaturoi i istoriei , konechno tyazhelo. Styorli poslednie 70 let v nikuda.

Gladiator

03-12-2003, 04:30 AM

Nemets!!!

hi Gitler :D

03-12-2003, 04:31 AM

Dear Gladiator!

I had study in tashkent. by the way at the beginning I was study in Russian Uzbek very famous Central tashkent school. I can compare.It was the best uzbek school in tashkent and all foreigners came to us.
What about other uzbek schools, for instance out of Tashkent, they were /are always in Cotton field.

So, maybe there are some exeptional schools some where, but it's not significant with the general critical mass.

P:S. Maybe you were so lucky to study at good uzbek school or turkish licey

Gladiator

03-12-2003, 04:41 AM

Dear Guest,

I agree with about the schools out of tashkent. But we shouldn't forget that many talented young guys come from rural districts. look at the umidies, many of them are from different viloyats and from uzbek school ;)

yes, I was lucky to have one of the good uzbek schools and my teachers to whom I am thankful very much.

03-12-2003, 07:45 AM

Какой маразм! И как они ожидают произвести образовательную реформу без качественных учебников? Национальная гордость не имеет к этому маразму никакого отношения! Дело не в гордости, а в тупизме - потому что никаких высоких идеалов в уничтожении учебной литературы я не вижу. Хотят поднять национальное образование - пусть качественные учебники переведут на узбекский язык, поднимут зарплаты учителям, и построят или пополнят библиотеку в каждом кишлаке.

P.S. Я училась в смешанной школе - где-то 75% узбекских классов и 25% русских. Родители хотели меня отдать в узбекский класс, чтобы родной язык не забыла. Но диреkтор школы, которая была их знакомой, им честно сказала: "Хотите чтобы дочка разбиралась в математике, физике и химии? Английском языке? Географии? Биологии? - отдавайте её в русский класс."

nemets

03-12-2003, 08:01 AM

Неметс!!!

хи Гитлер :лол:

Гладиатор!
Ты наверное думаешь, что ты своим остроумием блеснул?!

Free

03-12-2003, 08:24 AM

Rossiya v istorii Uzbekistana nichto..

03-12-2003, 08:24 AM

Неметс!!!

хи Гитлер :лол:

Гладиатор!
Ты наверное думаешь, что ты своим остроумием блеснул?!
Не, он просто не любит евреев, прям как Гитлер. Так что это он наверно на полном серьёзе. :D

Free

03-12-2003, 08:43 AM

hahha

Kolobok

03-12-2003, 09:58 AM

Siege,очень хорошая статья,заметно,что ты заменяешь Независимого Контрибютера :)
Я, лично благодарен русским,за то,что они нам принесли цивилизацию в Средную Азию ,в частности в Узбекистан. Этот вопрос мы уже както обсуждали,так что коротко говоря Россия (Русские) в истории Узбекистана будет(надеюсь) упоминаться как друг нашего государства.
С Уважением,
Мирзо. ;)

03-12-2003, 10:04 AM

esli pit vodku kak ruskiye ti nazivayesh tsevelizatsiyey to ya neznayu

trigger-happy

03-12-2003, 10:12 AM

если пит водку как рускиые ти називаыеш тсевелизатсиыеы то я незнаю
Если не хочешь пить водку, и не надо - даже лучше. Я уверена, Колобок имел в виду продвижения в медицине, науке, исскусстве, средствах массовой информации, и т. д. А ты умничаешь.

cupid

03-12-2003, 10:46 AM

russkie nichego horoshego v Uzbekistan ne prinesli.

Politicheski, russkie razrushili vlast uzbekskhih knyazhestv v Sredney Azii i tem samim polozhili konets k iskonno uzbekskoy dominatsii nad regionom - fakticheski razdelili zemli uzbekskih koroley i postroili iskustvennie respubliki. Chem obvernulas' eto vsem yasno - grazhdanskaya voyna v Tadjikistane, pogranichnie spori itd.

Ekonomicheski russkie fakticheski porabotili uzbekskiy narod zakrepiv uzbek na hlopkovie polya. Uzbekistan prevratili v hlopkovuyu koloniyu, gde hlopkovie polya nachinalis' pryamo iz dverei domov uzbekov. Uzbekov travili himikatami iz samoletov, sami zhirnie tolstozhopie russkie sideli v Tashkente polzuyas' s privelegiyami "supercheloveka".
Za to chto postroili neskol'ko zavodov tipa samoletostroeniya nado blagodorit vtoroyu mirovuyu voynu, kotoraya vinudila russkih evakuirovat' zavodi v Uz. Zavodi po dobiche tvetnih matall russkie ispol'zovali dlya obvaroviniya darov uzbekistana.
Ekologicheski, russkie nanesli nepopravimiy uron prirode Uzbekistane i ne tol'ko - vsledstvie politiki Moskvi visoh Aral. Spasenie Arala otsenivaet'sya v neskol'kih desyatko milliardov $US, ne schitaya moral'niy i fizicheskiy uron nanesenniy naseleniyu priaralya.

Duhovno, russkie unizhali dostoinstvo uzbek, podavlyali natsional'noe smaosoznanie uzbekskogo naroda, veli politiku russifikatsii s tselyu prevratit' uzbekov v mangqurti - (zombi, kto ne znaet svoe proishozhdenie, sleduet tomu chto govoryat' russkie). Otchasti russkie preuspeli v svoih gryaznih kolonial'nih planah po unichtozheniyu natsional'nogo samosoznaniya - mnogie uzbeki stali chustvovat' sebya "kul'turnimi" tol'ko izza-togo, chto govoryat' po-russki, stali stidit'sya za-to, chto oni uzbeki (uzbek dlya nih, kak dlya russkih, oznachaet churok ili otstaliy deginirad) i hoteli-bi videt' sebya uzhe russkimi. Primer nekotorih "kulturnih" uchastnikov foruma yavlyaetsya naglyadnim primerom rezul'tata politiki russkih v Uzbekistane - odin schitaet, chto russkie okul'turili uzbekov i pomogli prodvezheniyu meditsini, drugaya pishet uzbeki ploho prepodovali chem russkie itp., zabivaya o tom, chto prostoy uzbek bil lishen' ot vozmozhnosti kachestvenno uchit'sya na rodnom yazike i poluchit' dostoynoe obrazovanie. Vsya sistema obrazovaniya i zdravohraneniya rabotala isklyuchitel'no dlya russkih, ne bili sozdani usloviya dlya uzbek samih razvivat' eti otrasli. Russkie ne bili zainteresovani v razvitii uzbek, oni hoteli rusifitsirovat' uzbekov kak oni sdelali severnih narodov Rossii i chto oni pitayut'sya delat' v segodnyashniy den' v Chechne.

Vse chto russkie prinesli eto gorye, pechal', razruha - rezultati chego rashlebivaet nezavisimiy Uzbekistan. Vse chto napisano v novih knigah istorii - eto pravda, kotorogo uzbeki ne mogli znat' bol'she 150 let!! Uzbeki imeyut pravo znat' svoyu istoriyu i chto tvorili na ee zemle aggressori!

P.S. gor'e odnogo eto radost' drugogo. Gorya bol'shinstva uzbek, kotorih okrepostili v hlopkovie polya (65% naseleniya!!!!), eto radost' dlya nekotorih uzbek, kotorie poluchili vozmozhnost' "okul'turit'sya" (t.e. russifitsirovat'sya) v stolitse i bol'shih gorodah.

03-12-2003, 10:55 AM

03-12-2003, 11:00 AM

Geust ( female)

xorosho bylo by yesli "Prorusskix" kak woobshe wignaliby v Rossiyu .

na schot paranji. ya konechno somnevayus chto tvoya prababushka xodila otkrytym litzom. a vte vremena eto schitalos' bestyjiyem!!! yesli ty tak govorish o svoix rodsvinnikax....

03-12-2003, 11:06 AM

na schot paranji. ya konechno somnevayus chto tvoya prababushka xodila otkrytym litzom. a vte vremena eto schitalos' bestyjiyem!!! yesli ty tak govorish o svoix rodsvinnikax....
to, chto ona hodila v paranje, tak eto ona bila vinuzhdena, ya ee za eto ne osujdau. a ti dumaesh priyatno jenshine v 40gradusnuu jaru hodit v paranje? sam bi tak smog? i vobshe k jenshinam otnosilis gorazdo lutshe posle russkih, ravnopravie tam i vse dela.

cupid

03-12-2003, 11:06 AM

t.e. vo vsem chto uzbekam ploho, vinovati russkie. udobnaya takaya otmazka. :D esli bi ne russkie, mi bi do sih por v parandje hodili.

esli-bi, esli-bi, esli-bi :)

na schet paradjey - v Tursii, gde ne bilo russkoy mrazi devushki hodyat vpol'ne prilichno, i v otlichi ot nekotorih uchastnikov sdes na forume prekrasno mogut' virazit'sya na svoem rodnom yazike.

Geust, ti navernyaka neznaesh, chto v Uzbekistane uzhe v nachale 20-h godov proshlego stoletiya bili progressivnie sili - djadidi, kotorie pitalis' postroit sovremennoe demokraticheskoe gosudarstvo po evropeyskomu tipu i modernizirovat' obshestvo. Uzhe v nachale proshelgo stoletiya djadidi napravlyali studentov v evropeyskie strani dlya reformi svoih obshestv. I chto sluchilos s nimi voznikaet vopros - russkie vseh ih ubili pod predlogom, chto te yavlyayut'sya agentami imperialistov, panturkistov, kapitalistov. Vsya kompaniya protiv parandzhey "hudjum" itd. bilo provedeno ne s tselyu zashiti prav zhenshin (esli-bi tak bilo, ne bilo bi prinuzhdeniya), a v ramkah kompanii s tselyu unichtozhit natsional'nie traditsii i kul'turu uzbek. Stoilo bi otkrit glaza, i uznat' pravdu, kotoraya k sozheleniyu nesladkaya :(

cupid

03-12-2003, 11:10 AM

p.s. v usloviyah zhari naosit golovnoy ubor - eto dazhe k luchshemu, kozha ostaetsya beloy - chistoy. Pobrobuy v Surhandare ili gdeto na yuge hodit bez golovnogo ubora - devushki stanut' kak mulatki.

Voobsheto, v Evrope aristokratichnie zhenshini zakrivali litso s platkom.

UzIsraDen

03-12-2003, 11:10 AM

Guest! Ya by ne skazal, chto russkie prinesli tolko huynyu. Da, ya sam nedolyublivayu ih (osobenno za izlishnyuyu strast k alkogolizmu), odnako esli by ne oni, ne bylo by i takogo razvitiya ekonomiki v Uzbekistane. Konechno, nelzya otritzat russkogo vmeshatelstva i zasiratelstva uzbekskoy kultury, istorii i traditziy, odnako etot debilizm s uchebnikami ya prosto ne ponimayu. Chto, kto i komu hochet etim dokazat?

03-12-2003, 11:18 AM

To Cupid

Vot teper u vlasti uzbeki. economika v polnom derme, zdravohranenie, obrazovanie i vse ostalnie jiznenovajnie otrasli ne v luchshem sostaynii. Ludi mrut ot goloda kak muhi(uroven tuberkuleza v uzbekistane, povishe chem v luboy tam otstaloy africanskoy respublike, vse ot goloda kstati) zamechu vsego lish v 50 km ot Tashkenta. Tak chto i russkih net i svalivat ne nakogo. Kstate opyt nametilas tendenciya viterat popu glinynimi kameshkami (russkie iskorenili eto, vveli elementarnyu gigienu), v svyzi s tem chto deneg na tyaletnyu bumagu net, a knigi vse sojgli zimoy, kogda nechem bilo topit' , a gaza kotorim bogat Uzbekistan pochemu to ne bilo.

Naschet Turcii.
Kemal Ataturk vzyl kurs na Franciu. V bolshinstve sluchaev, starni vsegda brali kurs na tu ili inyu silneushyu derjavu. Tak vot, on zastavil sbrit vseh borodi, odevatsya svetski kak vo Francii i vse takoe. tak chto slava bogu u kajdoy starani bila svoya "Rossia". By the way Kemal ata turk bil vse go lish na 25% turkom.

Guest (female)

Polnostyu tebya podderjivau. Tozhe uchilas snachala v smeshannoy shkole, i nam tozhe kstati director i posovetovala perevesti menya v Russian school. ZAAAA

trigger-happy

03-12-2003, 11:27 AM

Кстате опыт наметилас тенденция витерат попу глиныними камешками (русские искоренили ето, ввели елементарню гигиену), в свызи с тем что денег на тялетню бумагу нет, а книги все сойгли зимоы, когда нечем било топить , а газа которим богат Узбекистан почему то не било.
Что серьёзно что ли? Не фига себе! :shock: :shock: Это в XXI веке? Не веры! Не хочу верить! :(

03-12-2003, 11:30 AM

SIEGE WHO PAYS YOU FOR CPY-PASTING ALL THIS SHIT ALL THE TIME?

cupid

03-12-2003, 11:48 AM

guest,

ne stoit svalivat' nasledie russkih na uzbekov, vse perechislennie problemi - eto nasledie kommunisticheskogo stroya. Russkie tak postroili soyuznuyu ekonomiku, chto uzbeki okazalis' sir'evim pridat'kom dlya russkih, raz sobranniy hlopok doma pererabotat' nel'zya. Okazalos', chto v uzbekistane ne razvili proizvodstvo, poskol'ku russkie tsvilizatori reshili, chto uzbeki nikogda ne smogut rabotat' na zavode. Poluchilos' tak "sluchayno", chto postroennie industrie po ukazaniyu russkih ne mogut kak-to rabotat' bez postavok iz Rossii. Tak poluchilos', chto Uzbeki, kotorie postovlyla gaz v Rossiyu, chtobi russkie sebe greli popu, sami greyut'sya topya ugol' ili derevo doma. Da, tak i bilo - russkie prinesli tsivilizatsiyu i razvili selskoe hozyaystvo - chto Aral visoh i chut' li ves' karakalpakskiy narod vimiraet, "spasibo" za russkim za eto...

i spasibo russkim za to, chto mnogie uzbeki "okul'turilis'", ved' oni prekrasno govoryat na russkom i iskrenni zashishayut ih interesi..
i samoe bol'shoe spasibo za russkih za vse, za to chto oni obosrali vezde gde oni bili - sami russkie govoryat "horosho tam, gde nas netu"!

na schet Turcii,
bullshit! Kemal Ataturk bral kurs na moderniozatsiyu a ne na kakuyu-to stranu, ne znaesh ne umnichay ;) otkuda ti otkapal, chto Kemal bil na 25% turkom? :D a mozhet bit on bil vovse frantzuzom ili "tcivilnim sovremennim russkim" ? :D

03-12-2003, 12:27 PM

cupid,

Naschet togo chto ya znau i chego ne znau,ne tebe reshat'

Posmotri biografiu Kemalya Ataturka. Ego zvali vo-pervih Mustafa. Prozvishe Kemal on poluchil v shkole , za to chto bil ochen horosh v matematike ot svoego uchitelya. Uje pozhe on nazval sebya takje otec Turkov. Rodilsya Mustafa v solonnikax (Thessaloniki) Greece. Mat' ego Macedonca, s primisymi grecheskoy krovi, otec tozhe na 50 procentov ne chistiy turok. Vneshne Kemal viglydel tak: Blondin s golybimi glazami.
Kemal deistvitel'no sil'no tygotel k France. Imenno poetomu mnogie turki v te vremena poluchali obrazovanie tam.

Vot i pochitay

03-12-2003, 12:33 PM

Eternity

03-12-2003, 12:45 PM

Guest,

Sam ti Ass licker. Esli Kolobok govorit to chto dumaet, eto znachit on takoy.
Teper Uzbekistan lijet odno mesto Amerike, prichem samim otkritim sposobom, Turciya von dumaet prodavatsya za 15 limonov ili net, uzbekistan gotov za 10 otdatsya.
Kolobok Ya tebya polnostyu podderjivau.

cupid

03-12-2003, 12:54 PM

guest,

u tebya strannaya logika - esli ktoto horosho uchil v matematike to on tol'ko na 25% turok :D

Salonniki bil turetskim gorodom, poka greki ne prognali vseh turok ottuda - slishal o Nazime Hikmete (on tozhe rodilsya v Salonnike).
Mustafa tipichnoe tyrkskoe imya, to chto mat' Kemalya iz Makedonii ne delaet Mustafu neturkom. Ti hot' slishal', chto Mustafa Kemal nazival sebya neturkom?
a esli po vneshnosti sudit', to budem reshat' o natsional'nosti po vneshnosti? mne chasto govoryat', chto ya na italyansa pohozh - to opluchaetsya ya italyanets :D
Fransiya raznaya strana, Kemal tyagotel' ne fransii a modernistkim ideyam stroitel'stvo obshestvo.

tak guest, nadeyus ti poluchil(a) urok na segodnya.

03-12-2003, 12:57 PM

"Mustafa tipichnoe tyrkskoe imya, to chto mat' Kemalya iz Makedonii ne delaet Mustafu neturkom. "

Nazovu ya dochku Mashen'koy - chto ona, ot etogo russkoy stanet? :D Sina nazovu Abramom - chto srazu evreem stanet? Nu i logika u vas, tovarishi.

03-12-2003, 01:09 PM

Ataturk was born in 1881 (probably in the spring) in Salonica, then an Ottoman city, now in Greece. His father Ali Riza, a customs official turned lumber merchant, died when Mustafa was still a boy. His mother Zubeyde, a devout and strong-willed woman, raised him and his sister.
http://www.sporum.gov.tr/English/Ataturk/ata2.asp

Prianik

03-12-2003, 02:00 PM

i cannot beleive that among us, youth, we still have racist idiots. situation is far worse than everyone thinks with these crappy youth attitude. look at u, how low can government go, and u blindly follow it without ever thinking, of course if u have somethink to think with. critical analysis, self criticism are surely not ur characteristics. shame

_Charosoy_

03-12-2003, 02:54 PM

Prianik, agar o'zbeklarni o'z halqi va tarihini himoya qilishni va haqiqatni ko'rsatish rasizm deb aytsangiz, unda butun Evropa davlatlari va butun dunyo rasist bo'ladi sizning fikrizga ko'ra. Fransiyada o'z tilini avaylash uchun mahsus qonunlar bor. Tlishunos olimlarning tadqiqotlariga ko'ra har yili 2000 til o'layotgan va yuq bo'lib ketayotgan ekan. Va agar shu ketishda davom etsa yaqin yillarda dunyoda 3 -5 til qolar ekan.
Gap rus tilini yomon ko'rishda emas. Gap O'zbekiston halqio'zbek tilini unutishida va uning yuq bo'lishiga sababchisi bo'lishyapti. Nimamish rus maktablarida darslar judayam a'lo darajda berishar emish. Qo'shilaman, lekin qishloqlardagi va viloyatlardagi qobiliyatli yigit qizlar osmondan tushar ekande.

O'zbekiston tarihida ruslar salbiy iz qoldirishdi. Sizlarning ko'plaringizning fikrlaringiz rus davridagi sovet tarihini o'qib uni kallaga quyib olishlaringiz va haqiqiy tarihni faqatgina haqqoniy yuzini qabul qilishni hohlamaysizlar.
Buyuk rus o'gamizning bizga qilgan yahshiliklarini sanab o'taylik. Nimamish ular bo'lmasa, biz haliyam botqoq ichida qolarmishmiz. To'g'ri sovet tarihini o'qiganizdan keyin va rus maktabida ta'lim olgandan keyin bundan boshqa yana qanday fikr kelishi mumkin. 130 yil ichida ostin ustun qilingan tarihni qaytadan tiklash uchun 10 yil yetarli emas, u sabot bilan izlanish bilan amalga oshiriladi. Nega endi bu qadar bizni sevgan rus o'galarimiz bizning manaviy siymolarimizni A. AVLONIY, BEHBUDIY, QODIRIY, U. NOSIR, CHO'LPON va shu kabi ko'p odamlarni qirg'in qildi???
Nima uchun ilk ruslar bosib olganda johil mujiklarni qamoqdagi barcha rus-cho'chqalarini O'zbekiston tuprog'iga olib keldi?
Nima uchun Cupid aytagandey, O'rol dengizni qurishiga sabachi bo'ldi, hozirgi kunda u yerdagi kasalliklar va nochor ahvol odamni titratib yuboradi.
Birinchi bo'lib ruslardan uning hunini so'ragan bo'lar edim. Shunchalik yahshi ko'rgan ruslar kechirim so'radilarmi? Yoki moddiy yordam qildilarmi?
Nima uchun talon taroj bo'lgan mulklarni qaytarib bermadilar.? Nega bir bo'lgan Turksitonni ajratib, halqlarni bir biriga dushman qildilar? Bizni hom ashyo berivchi bir soqqan buzoqqa aylantirdilar. Doim sog'ilib keldik. Har bir halqning iqtisodiyotini parchaladilar. O'zbekiston faqatgina pahta chiqaruvchi bazaga aylandi. Boshqa yerdan neftini oldilar, yana bir halqdan faqat madan boyligi chiqaruvchi bazaga aylantirildi. Lekin yolg'iz boshimiz bilan hich bir narsani eplay olamaydigan holga keltirdilar. Rossiya davlati Angliyani doim koloniyal sistemasida ayblar edi. Lekin Rossiya davlati CCCP qardoshlik niqobi ostida bizni istaganicha foydalandilar.Rossiya o'zi original bir koloniya imperiyasini tashkil qilgan edi. Urush bo'ldi bizning yigitlar jabr ko'rdi. Afg'onda keraksiz qorishib yigitlar majruh bo'lib qaytdilar. Sovet davridagi talon sistemasini, defitsitni eslang, oyida kishi boshiga 1 litr yog', 2 kg go'sht, 1kg shakar va yana... olish uchun odamlar sahardan 3.00larda go'sht tugamasin deb ocheredlarga turishlari, u yerdagi ur yiqitlar, bir eslang..U zamonda eng ishalari oldi ketgan magazinchilar, yuksak mansabdagi kishilar edi. Halqchi???Shundan keyin nega endi RUS davlatini ijobiy tasir ko'rsatti deb ayta olamiz?
Iqtisodiyotni yahshilash uchun nimalar qildi??
Hatto yagona gururimiz bo'lgan metroni qurdirish uchun ham Sharof Rashidow 2 yil Moskvadan rushat olishga harakat qilgan. Nima uchun shunchalik bizni yahshi ko'rgan davlat, O'zbek tilini rasmiy tili qilib qabul qilishini faqatgina 1989 yili tasdiqladi. Shuncha voqeadan keyin haliyam ruslar tuzumiy yahshi deb aytish bu manqurtlikning bir belgisidir. Chingiz Aytmatovning romanidagi manqurtlardan hich farqimiz yuq..
Hozirgi qiyinchililarning va halqning ahvoliga ham yagona " Buyuk rus o'g'amiz" aybdordir. Ular maqsad sari 130 yil astoyidil harakat qildilar, tarihimizni, tilimizni umuman o'zligimizni unutishga nimaki istagan bo'lsalar shunga erishdilar.
Mustaqillik uchun erk uchun qon va jon berilsa, shundagi halq buning haqiqiy mohiyatini va qadrini anglaydi.

P.S Hatolar uchun uzr

Batur

03-12-2003, 04:15 PM

Hurmetli forum istirakcilari,
Lutfen tarihi ve ilkelerini bilmeden Ataturk üzerine konusmayin! Ataturku ruslasmis birileri anlayamaz ve dinci olanlar anlamak istemez. Ve bu kisiler halen Ataturk uzerine yalanlar soylerler.
Ataturk 100% bir turkdur. Hepimizden cok fazla bir turk! Vatan, kultur ve diline sonsuz sevgisi olan birisiydi. Ama Ataturkun en farkli ozelligi bir vizyonu olmasiydi.
Ataturkun buyuklugunu anlamak icin o zamanlara bir bakmaniz gerekir. Osmanli donemini dagilmis ve Turkiye her taraftan dusmanlarin saldirisi ve isgaline ugramisti. Yunanlar, Fransizlar, Italyanlar, Ingilizler, Ermeniler ... her bir taraftan ulkeyi parcalamaya calistiklari bir zaman. Turkiye ise tamamiyla ekonomisi yok olmus, hicbir altyapisi olmayan bir ulke. Ayrica 1. dunya harbinden sonra artik savaslardan cok yara almis, yoksul, fakir, cahil ve ac bir halk.
Iste bu durumda birisi kalkiyor, insanlara o bagimsizligin ve ulusal egemenligin atesini veriyor! Halka gelecege ve kendine inanmayi gosteriyor. Ve hic bir seyi olmayan bir fakir Turkiye o zamanki super gucler olan devletlere karsi akil almaz bir kurtulus savasi yapiyor. Bu savas tarihin en kanli savaslarindan birisi.
Ama turkleri bir araya getiren o ulusal birlik dusuncesi ve ozgurluge inanc halki kazandiriyor. Bu zaferden sonra Ataturk durmuyor ve modern bir ulke kurmak icin ugrasiyor.
Simdi Turkiye'de bile Ataturk devrimlerini bir batililasma olarak gosterenler vardir. Esasinda bu yanlistir! Ataturk devrimleri bir modernlesme yoludur! Esas Ataturk devrimlerinin anlami bir halkin kendi kendini modernlestirip, olumsuz durumlardan kendi kendini kurtarmasini ogrenmesidir. Bunun icin ilk basta kendi kulturune ve diline sahip olmasi gerektigi zorunludur! O yuzden Ataturkun en kapsamli devrimlerinden birisi dil ve yazi devrimidir. Radikal bir reform sayesinde sadece bir kac yil icinde Turkiye, arap alfabesinden modern latin alfabesine gecmistir. Ayrica turkiye turkcesinde giderek arapca ve farsca kelimelerin yerini oz turkce kelimeler veya yeni gelistirilen kelimeler almistir!
Iste Ataturk uzerine bilmeyerek atmadan once kendinizi bilgilendirin. Bu yanlis laflari soyleyenler lutfen birde kendileri nerede olduklarina bir baksinlar!

Алматинец

03-12-2003, 11:13 PM

млин почему нельзя писать нормально по русски!!
знаете как ломает всю вашу абдракадабру читать!!

Prianik

03-13-2003, 02:42 AM

Алматинец,

tak i ne chitay esli lomaet. imey uvajenie

Siege

03-13-2003, 02:52 AM

_Charosoy_,
Afg'onda keraksiz qorishib yigitlar majruh bo'lib qaytdilar. Sovet davridagi talon sistemasini, defitsitni eslang, oyida kishi boshiga 1 litr yog', 2 kg go'sht, 1kg shakar va yana... olish uchun odamlar sahardan 3.00larda go'sht tugamasin deb ocheredlarga turishlari, u yerdagi ur yiqitlar, bir eslang..

О чем ты п-дишь ж-а турецкая? :twisted:

Siege

03-13-2003, 03:00 AM

Batur, Турка те че надо здесь?
Дай я тебе новую пословицу про тебя скажу:

"Если турка не прид-ка, значит он совсем не турка".

Siege

03-13-2003, 03:09 AM

trigger-happy,
Anonymous wrote:
Кстате опыт наметилас тенденция витерат попу глиныними камешками (русские искоренили ето, ввели елементарню гигиену), в свызи с тем что денег на тялетню бумагу нет, а книги все сойгли зимоы, когда нечем било топить , а газа которим богат Узбекистан почему то не било.

Что серьёзно что ли? Не фига себе! Это в XXI веке? Не веры! Не хочу верить!

Не совсем правда, это делали и при русских!

_Charosoy_

03-13-2003, 03:17 AM

TO SIEGE:

GAR ESHAK BIRLA HO'TIKKA QANCHA QILSANG TARBIYA
IT BO'LUR ESHAK BO'LUR LEKIN ASLO BO'LMAS ODAMI. :D

cupid

03-13-2003, 03:18 AM

Batur, Турка те че надо здесь?
Дай я тебе новую пословицу про тебя скажу:

"Если турка не прид-ка, значит он совсем не турка".

Uzbeki - tyurkskiy narod. Samo nazvanie "uzbek" po otnosheniyu segodnyashnih uzbekov nachal' ispol'zovat'sya posle stalinskogo deleniya Turkistana na otdel'nie melkie natsii. Pradedi uzbek nazivali sebya turkami, tak sebya nazival Alihser Navai, Babur, Mashrab itd.

Nado znat' svoi korni, hotya kommunisti ochen' postaralis', chto-bi uzbeki poteryali samosoznanie.

http://www.ozturkler.net

Siege

03-13-2003, 03:28 AM

_Charosoy_,
TO SIEGE:

GAR ESHAK BIRLA HO'TIKKA QANCHA QILSANG TARBIYA
IT BO'LUR ESHAK BO'LUR LEKIN ASLO BO'LMAS ODAMI.

И чо ты думаешь я куплюсь на твой фольклер?
Или тебе новый стишок на Узбекском про тебя написать?

Хочешь показаться умной прокомментируй что ты написала. :evil:

Afg'onda keraksiz qorishib yigitlar majruh bo'lib qaytdilar. Sovet davridagi talon sistemasini, defitsitni eslang, oyida kishi boshiga 1 litr yog', 2 kg go'sht, 1kg shakar va yana... olish uchun odamlar sahardan 3.00larda go'sht tugamasin deb ocheredlarga turishlari, u yerdagi ur yiqitlar, bir eslang..

Я знаю почему ты не любишь русских, сильно догадываюсь!
Твой любимый ушел к русской и теперь ты вынужденна жить с этим ословатым турком. Жаль тебя.

Если так пекешься о узбечках, объясни почему при русских узбечек проституток практически не было, а сейчас они самые дешевые?!!!
И заводнили своими, извиняюсь, влагалищами всю ЦА, Турцию и Эмираты?

Siege

03-13-2003, 03:31 AM

cupid, Мы тюрки и узбеки, они тюрки и турки!

cupid

03-13-2003, 03:58 AM

Siege,
ok, esli nas ob'edeniyayut korni, to otkuda beret'sya tvoe aggressivnost' po otnosheniyu turok?

Charas v neskol'ko izmenennoy forme privela slova Navai, pravil'nya versiya:

nokasu nojins avlodin kishi o'lsun deb,
chekma zahmat o'lmas hech nafosat olami,
gar kuchuk birla ho'tukni kilsang kancha tarbiyat,
it bo'lur, eshak bo'lur, bo'lmas aslo odami

takzhe

odami bo'lsan demagil odami,
oniki yo'qtur xalk g'amidin g'ami

s chem Navai prizival lyudey k gumannosti.

Siege

03-13-2003, 04:09 AM

cupid,
ok, esli nas ob'edeniyayut korni, to otkuda beret'sya tvoe aggressivnost' po otnosheniyu turok?

Charas v neskol'ko izmenennoy forme privela slova Navai, pravil'nya versiya:

nokasu nojins avlodin kishi o'lsun deb,
chekma zahmat o'lmas hech nafosat olami,
gar kuchuk birla ho'tukni kilsang kancha tarbiyat,
it bo'lur, eshak bo'lur, bo'lmas aslo odami

takzhe

odami bo'lsan demagil odami,
oniki yo'qtur xalk g'amidin g'ami

s chem Navai prizival lyudey k gumannosti.

Фольклер это хорошо, но этого мало.
Вспомни М.Солиха. Поэт хренов. Тоже начинал с языка.

Разговорись с любым взрослым узбеком о советских временах. Кроме как приятной воспоминаний это у него ничего не вызовет. "Была зарплата, и можно было спокойно жить, не думая чем кормить своих детей завтра." - вот что я слышу каждый день.

Турков я уважаю, но не таких эта Чорасой или ее муженек.

_Charosoy_

03-13-2003, 04:24 AM

Ahmoq bo'maganingda bu kabi ahmoqona savollar bermagan bo'lar eding.
Talon sistemasi va difitsitni bu yerda mani yoshimda yoki mandan yoshi ulug' bo'lganalr yahshi eslasa kerak, deb o'yayman.

Fohishalarga keladigan bo'lsak , bu mavzuda ko'p gapirilgan, san aytayotgan narsa ham u yerda katta harflar bilan yozib qo'yilgan :twisted:

Praud to be Uzbek ;), to'g'rirog'i Hate to be Uzbek, bu sanga mos, homosovetik do'stim Siege ;)

Represiya davrida yaqinalaringni halq dushmani deb olib ketishganda, 20-30 yillab ko'zing to'rt bo'lib kutganda, halq dushmani oilasi deb tamg'a urilganda, qamoqda o'lsada, bundan habaring yuq, keyin 40 yildan keyin hich qanday gunohi yuq oqlanganini eshitganda, begunoh qamoqda chirib harob bo'lganini ko'z oldinga keltirganda qanday ahvolga tushgan bo'lar eding? Bu uchunmi man minnatdor bo'lishim kerak, ulug' rus bobomizdan!!

O'zbek tili folklor emas, hayotim :D

TO SIEGE:

GAR ESHAK BIRLA HO'TIKKA QANCHA QILSANG TARBIYA
IT BO'LUR ESHAK BO'LUR LEKIN ASLO BO'LMAS ODAMI.

Siege

03-13-2003, 04:40 AM

_Charosoy_,
Ahmoq bo'maganingda bu kabi ahmoqona savollar bermagan bo'lar eding.
Talon sistemasi va difitsitni bu yerda mani yoshimda yoki mandan yoshi ulug' bo'lganalr yahshi eslasa kerak

Талонная система в СССР была только с периода 1989-1991гг как раз в то время когда пришли хреновы специалисты, которые повсюду кричали, что

Uzbek tili folklor emas, hayotim

Кто виноват в этом? Мы сами. Солихи, Пулатовы, Каримовы и т.п. Но те времена были очень сложными, до этого одной стипендии хватало что бы студент мог прилично питаться и одеваться (в отечественное правда).

Represiya davrida yaqinalaringni halq dushmani deb olib ketishganda, 20-30 yillab ko'zing to'rt bo'lib kutganda, halq dushmani oilasi deb tamg'a urilganda, qamoqda o'lsada, bundan habaring yuq, keyin 40 yildan keyin hich qanday gunohi yuq oqlanganini eshitganda, begunoh qamoqda chirib harob bo'lganini ko'z oldinga keltirganda qanday ahvolga tushgan bo'lar eding? Bu uchunmi man minnatdor bo'lishim kerak, ulug' rus bobomizdan!!

Да можешь сказать но не русским - а дедушки Вел. Грузину!
Сами русские от него пострадали намного больше. И не обвиняй в этом русских, обвиняй свой менталтитет - уничтожим во все что мы не давно верили! Во что бы то не стало! Вот ваша самая большая и частая ошибка.

P.S. КСТАТЕ! ЛЮДИ!!! У ЧОРАСОЙ ПОРНОГРАФИЧЕСКИЙ АВАТАР, ТАМ ИЗОБРАЖЕННЫ ЕЕ ПОЛОВЫЕ ГУБЫ!!!

cupid

03-13-2003, 04:45 AM

Siege,

ne stoit putat' mezhdu folklore (narodnim isskustvom) i proizvedeniem otdel'nogo poeta. Chto kasaetsya M.Soliha - on deystvitel'no talantliviy poet s tochki zreniya literaturi i iskusstva, no v tozhe vremya bezdarniy politik.

na schet:
>"Разговорись с любым взрослым узбеком о советских временах. Кроме как приятной воспоминаний это у него ничего не вызовет. "<

eto estestvennoe logicheskoe mnenie "vzroslogo uzbeka" - ved' vspominayut s udovol'stviem i nostalgiey te godi, v kotorih oni bili molodimi, zdorovimi - vlyublyalis itp.

chto kasaetsya

>"Была зарплата, и можно было спокойно жить, не думая чем кормить своих детей завтра." - вот что я слышу каждый день."<

voobsheto tak dumayut poraboshennie, dlya kotorih nichego krome edi ne yavlyaetsya svetim. Po mne bi luchshe zhit nishim, no svobodnim i s dostoinstvom chem bit rabom kogo-to.

p.S. esli u vas (Siege & Charas) lichnie problemi, to polzuytes s emailom, ne horosho publichno grubit drug-drugo. Osobenno eto kasaetsya Siege - vse taki muzhchina.

Kolobok

03-13-2003, 04:48 AM

Siege & _Charosoy_,Cut the crap!
Discuss your topic and stop cursing eachother please :)

_Charosoy_

03-13-2003, 04:56 AM

GLUPOST' - DAR BOJIY, SIEGE, NO NE SLEDUYET IM ZLOUPOTREBLYAT, DOROGOY ;)

Siege

03-13-2003, 04:57 AM

cupid,
voobsheto tak dumayut poraboshennie, dlya kotorih nichego krome edi ne yavlyaetsya svetim. Po mne bi luchshe zhit nishim, no svobodnim i s dostoinstvom chem bit rabom kogo-to.

Да не были мы рабами! Не было Презид-х дворцов в центре города и за его пределами. Не было столько ментов, заборов и запретов. Зданий одной целью которых яв-ся показать мошь своей абсолютной власти (хакимиаты, мажлисы и т.п.).
Если тебе что-то не нравилось мог написать в Москву, разобрались бы точно.

А сейчас что?

Пиши Горбачеву, только. :D

Я не говорю что все было хорошо, но лучше чем сейчас точно.
Каждый мог пообедать в ресторане и не думать о счете. А сейчас?
Если средняя зарплата 50,000 сум как раз один ужин на два человека хватит :shock: !

Так что не надо обвинять русских, надо помнить и хорошее, которго по моему было больше.

Siege

03-13-2003, 05:09 AM

_Charosoy_, Кстате ты не ответила мне на мой вопрос:

Если так пекешься о узбечках, объясни почему при русских узбечек проституток практически не было, а сейчас они самые дешевые?!!!
И заводнили своими, извиняюсь, влагалищами всю ЦА, Турцию и Эмираты?

Siege

03-13-2003, 05:12 AM

Kolobok,
Я живу только ради неё...

Еды что ли :shock: ?

:D

Шутка!

cupid

03-13-2003, 06:10 AM

Да не были мы рабами!

....
Если тебе что-то не нравилось мог написать в Москву, разобрались бы точно.

А сейчас что?

....
Так что не надо обвинять русских, надо помнить и хорошее, которго по моему было больше.

Nu vot ti Siege - prekrasno pishesh po russki, pohozhe dazhe luchseh uzbekskogo (titulnaya natsiya govorit na yazike aggressora), predpochitaesh togo chtobi nad uzbekami pravila Moskva. Tebe lish-bi pozhalavot'sya russkim, za to chto malen'kaya zarplata ili kushat' malo.

nu da, s takimi "proud uzbekami" stroit budushee Uzbekistan, eh...

Sunny-Eternity

03-13-2003, 06:30 AM

Siege,

Ochen' redko kogda Ya polnost'u razdelyu ch'e libo mnenie. Ya s toboy polnost'u soglasna vo vsem.

03-13-2003, 06:44 AM

Bek25

03-13-2003, 07:22 AM

Kolobok

Я, лично благодарен русским,за то,что они нам принесли цивилизацию в Средную Азию ,в частности в Узбекистан.

Kolob ya svami ne soglasen chto Russkie prinesli zivilisasiu v Uzbekistan and Central Asia!!! Vi chto xotite skasat chto Uzbeki bili ne zivilisovaniy ludi do prixoda Russia??? Ya ne uveren prosto uvsex rasnoy ponyatiya zivilisasiy!!! Uzbeki imeut ochen bolishu i bogatuy istoriyu, kotoraya namnogo previshaet Rossiskuy istoriu. Poshalusto ne sabivayte chto mnogoe chto snali Europeisi oni poluchili ot Asiatov a osobeno ot stran takix kak China, Idia and Central Asia.

Почему вас заинтересовал Тимур?
- Гений и власть - вот что меня занимает. Во времена Тимура война кормила людей. И Тимур кормил свой народ. Вернувшись из похода, Тимур в течение трех-четырех лет занимался искусством, наукой, строительством, а потом выстраивал воинов, шел вдоль шеренги и смотрел им в глаза - и по блеску в их глазах он видел, что они созрели для войны. Мы с Фридрихом долго думали, почему же, взяв Елец, Тимур не пошел на Москву? Долго ковырялись в документах, пока не догадались. В сценарии есть эпизод: Тимур стоит на берегу реки, смотрит на холодную, нищую Русь и думает, что же он отсюда возьмет в свой Самарканд? Медвежьи шкуры, лапти? Он поворачивается и уходит в Багдад, Константинополь, Дамаск, где берет колоссальную добычу. Но факт остается фактом: Тимур, разбив Тохтамыша, избавил Русь от Золотой Орды. Eto malenkiy otrivok is statiy na: http://news.ferghana.ru/detail.php?id=1385&code_phrase=

To chto govoritsya v etoy statie ya naschet knig po istori v Uzbekistane ya schitau ne pravilno delautsya, no prietomshe poshalusto ne sabivayte chto Russia prinisla mnogo boli i stradaniya Uzbekskomu narodu!!!
Vi nemoshete oshidat chtob ktoto xorosho odsivalsya ob svoix obidchikax!! Eto vse ravno chtob prosit Indeysov v Amerike xorosho otsivatsya ob Europeisax kotorie otabrali unix semlu i ubivali ix ludey!!!!
Tochno takshe Koreysi nelubyat Japanis(Yaponsov) sa ix saxvat Korei i v svoix uchebnikax oni toshe pishut ploxo pro Japan, a kogda Japan v svoix knigax po istori ne raskasivaet pro svoi deystviya v Korea!!!

Tak chto eto nado rasmatrivat s dvux storon!!!

S Uvasheniem
Bek25

Siege

03-13-2003, 08:28 AM

Sunny-Eternity,
Siege,

Ochen' redko kogda Ya polnost'u razdelyu ch'e libo mnenie. Ya s toboy polnost'u soglasna vo vsem.

Искренее Спасибо.

Алматинец

03-13-2003, 09:34 AM

Алматинец,

tak i ne chitay esli lomaet. imey uvajenie
а с чего ты решил что я не имею уважения?
а?

Gladiator

03-13-2003, 10:20 AM

to Prianik!!!

" cannot beleive that among us, youth, we still have racist idiots. situation is far worse than everyone thinks with these crappy youth attitude. look at u, how low can government go, and u blindly follow it without ever thinking, of course if u have somethink to think with. critical analysis, self criticism are surely not ur characteristics. shame"

what are you talking about, man!!! :evil: . if someone knows his history and likes his nation and doens't want to be under russian "patronage", it doesn't mean that he or she is racist!!! please pay attention what you say 8).

trigger-happy

03-13-2003, 10:36 AM

Let's get back to the issue, shall we? The original article was about how the Uzbek government encourages educators to tear up certain books! :evil: Or make those books unavailable to children. Laws of physics stay the same whether written in Uzbek, Russian, or Chinese - so why is a book destroyed just because it was published in USSR or Russia? History is a different issue - it's been written and rewritten so many times that we have to change the book every few years, but things like math, physics, chemistry don't change that quick, barring some breakthrough discoveries. :) We can't isolate our children in terms of information they are getting if we don't want to bring up another generation of sheep. What kind of an example are we setting for them? They see their books torn up and get the idea that education is evil and that the only way to be proud of your national identity is by complete isolation.

MUHLIS

03-13-2003, 10:54 AM

trigger-happy

03-13-2003, 11:06 AM

relax, the truth is that rossiya should mind their own business we our own that is all!!!
Oh, I'll relax. But you'll have to wait til Saturday (my official relaxation day). Until then - it's dynamite! :D
The truth is if everyone minded their own business, life would be much much simpler. But then we'd have nothing to complain about and we'd be bored to death.

Batur

03-13-2003, 12:59 PM

Siege ve benzeriler!
Dost aci konusur diye bir laf vardir. Sana bir turk milletlerinin cocugu olarak, yani kardesiniz olarak daha sert konusmak
gerek.
Esasinda sizin gibilerin bir piskologa gitmeleri gerekir. Bilim dunyasinda bu gibi fenomenler arastirilmis ve enteresan olaylar ortaya cikmis. Mesela Amerika'da kolelik sistemi bittikten sonra bazi zenci koleler ozgurlugune kavusmasina ragmen, yillar sonra eski sahiplerini gorduklerinde hemen yerlere egilip "massa" veya "master" derlermis.
Son yillarda yine ayri bir olay arastirilmis. Birisi tarafindan rehin (kidnap) alinan bazi insanlar, belli zaman sonra kendilerini rehin alan insana yakin gormeye baslarlarmis ve rehin alani hakli bulurlarmis.
Bu dediklerimi anlamak icin senin beynin yetermi bilmem. Ama her ihtimale karsin sana bunu daha acik bir türkceyle yazayim: Senin hergun ruslar gotune koyuyorlar, ama sen hicbir zaman niye bunlar beni gotten duzuyorlar demiyorsun - sadece sag olsunlar bugun vazelin surmus veya kanatmadilar diyorsun! OYLEMI?
Senin herseyden uzerine sevdigin ruslar sana burada ne anlatiyorlar bilmem.
Ama benim oturdugum Almanya daki gordugum ruslar, ozbekler ve diger orta asya halklari uzerine gulerler - ve geri kalmis insanlar olarak gorurler.
Ama bunlari yazmam bosuna cunku sen ne desekte yinede rus gotu yalamaya devam edeceksin - cunku ilk basta dedigim gibi piskolojik hastasin!
Senin hastaligina tek bir care var! Estetik ameliyat yaptir, saclarini sariya boya ve rusyaya defol git!

P.S. Sen daha gecen sefer hanimim uzerine yaptigi hakaretlerden ozur dilemedin!! Erkeksen hemen ozurunu dile! Ama sen bir rus picisin, oyle seyleri bilmezsin!

03-13-2003, 01:12 PM

Siege ve benzeriler!
Dost aci konusur diye bir laf vardir. Sana bir turk milletlerinin cocugu olarak, yani kardesiniz olarak daha sert konusmak
gerek.
Esasinda sizin gibilerin bir piskologa gitmeleri gerekir. Bilim dunyasinda bu gibi fenomenler arastirilmis ve enteresan olaylar ortaya cikmis. Mesela Amerika'da kolelik sistemi bittikten sonra bazi zenci koleler ozgurlugune kavusmasina ragmen, yillar sonra eski sahiplerini gorduklerinde hemen yerlere egilip "massa" veya "master" derlermis.
Son yillarda yine ayri bir olay arastirilmis. Birisi tarafindan rehin (kidnap) alinan bazi insanlar, belli zaman sonra kendilerini rehin alan insana yakin gormeye baslarlarmis ve rehin alani hakli bulurlarmis.
Bu dediklerimi anlamak icin senin beynin yetermi bilmem. Ama her ihtimale karsin sana bunu daha acik bir tьrkceyle yazayim: Senin hergun ruslar gotune koyuyorlar, ama sen hicbir zaman niye bunlar beni gotten duzuyorlar demiyorsun - sadece sag olsunlar bugun vazelin surmus veya kanatmadilar diyorsun! OYLEMI?
Senin herseyden uzerine sevdigin ruslar sana burada ne anlatiyorlar bilmem.
Ama benim oturdugum Almanya daki gordugum ruslar, ozbekler ve diger orta asya halklari uzerine gulerler - ve geri kalmis insanlar olarak gorurler.
Ama bunlari yazmam bosuna cunku sen ne desekte yinede rus gotu yalamaya devam edeceksin - cunku ilk basta dedigim gibi piskolojik hastasin!
Senin hastaligina tek bir care var! Estetik ameliyat yaptir, saclarini sariya boya ve rusyaya defol git!

P.S. Sen daha gecen sefer hanimim uzerine yaptigi hakaretlerden ozur dilemedin!! Erkeksen hemen ozurunu dile! Ama sen bir rus picisin, oyle seyleri bilmezsin!

very beautiful language, it's really wonderful when a person can speak his own language so fluently.

Keep it up Batur!

Stam

03-13-2003, 01:17 PM

Да речь уже идет не только об России ( которая сама
даалеко не совершенна ) или ее роли в истории
да и Гоги Хидоятов- не гений к сожалению
(я его учебник еще в 1992 году сдавал почти наизусть,
Каримовских трудов тогда НЕ БЫЛО :) )
Речь идет IMHO о доведении собственного народа
до состояния бараньего стада( благо помнят еще
как это в Союзе делалось) камень в огород начальника ГУНО,
он тогда в комсомоле ересь искоренял- боролся с жевательной
резинкой и спортивной одеждой ADIDAS (теперь новые хозяева)
Так что речь идет не о националном самосознании узбекского народа
- а о целеноправленном уничтожении свободомыслия и демократии
в отдельно взятой стране, отдельно взятыми уродами-
которые кстати не понимают, что загнав собственный народ, этим
путем, в тьму религиозного фанатизма - первыми окажутся повешенными
за ноги (или другие места) в крайнем случае вторыми...... туда им и дорога

mujreem

03-13-2003, 05:11 PM

Ассаламу Алайкум
Вижу тут уже многие достаточно отстранились от темы и уже начались взаимонаезды и оскорбления.
Ну а если говоря по теме, то вопрос очень актуальный. История должна быть объективной, и не должна служить интересом государственной политике и интересам определенных кругов. История по заказу не пишеться, политика может меняться а история не должна меняться каждые несколько лет. То что в нашей истории не хватает объективности так это я признаю с горечью. Хотя наша история помоему уже больше века незнает вообще что такое объективность.
Удивляеть выступление Гоги Абраровича, этого человека как историка я почти что не уважаю. Помню когда я должен был писать рефераты по его книге "Менинг жонажон Узбекистоним", наверное так называеться учебник истории Узбекистана для ВУЗов, точно не помню. Странно как этот человек написавший такую книгу вообще может заикаться об объективности.
Ну а то что касаеться уничтожения книг в школах, так я сам лично столкнулся с этим явлениям еще когда учился в школе. Помню как то в библиотеке сам директор школы проводил "идеологическую чистку книг", и выбрасывал на пол с книжной полки все книги на русском языке, и все что мы делали так это с отвалившейся челюстью наблюдать за тем как одна за другой выбрасывались на пол книги мировых классиков. А самое невероятное во всем этом было то что директор то наш был преподователем узбекского языка и литературы(!). Человек который не понаслышке знал о Достоевском и Лермонтове. А все это произошло из за одного ЧП произошедшим в одной из школ города. Как то приехал Джурабеков (серый кардинал) навестить городскую школу, (дело было в году нето в 94 не то в 95 ом). И где то на заброшенном углу вдруг увидел старый лозунг еще с тех времен на красном полотне который был накрыть пылем и не читался, и вообще никто даже и не замечал, (и вообще наш народ уже давно перестал читать всякие лозунги восхваляюших нас самих себя не важно на каком полотне оно написано на красном или на синем) и с яростью спросил "Что это?". Естественно после этого срочное совещание в ОблОНО. Директора той школы немедленно сняли с должности да и еще кое кому попало по самой строгости кардинала, как будто это они сами перед приездом такого высокого гостя от нечего делать под покровом ночи инкогнито повесили тот несчастный лозунг туда, и в конце было приказано "Убрать!!!" Вот и постарались все во славу и "убрали" :)
Я еще тогда про себя прошептал "Вот и приехали". Вообще наши чиновники и всякие там руководители уникальны. Скажешь принеси чалму, вместе с головой принесут, дабы блеснуть своей преданностью перед вышестояшими.

To Batur: Batur, sen bir yabanci olarak, O'zbek forumunda O'zbek vatandashlarina neyi nasil dushunmeleri, kimin nasil ne yapmasi ve kimin nereyi gidip gitmemesini go'stermeye ne hakkin var? Burda her kesin farkli dushuncesi ve farkli gorushleri olabilir, bu dushunce ve gorushler yanlish olsun olmasin, ama bu bir ulkede dogup bu ulkede buyuyen ve gelecekte bu ulkeye hizmet edecek adamlarin dushuncesidir. Sana, senin Turkiyene ve senin turk vatandashlarina hich alakasi yok. Ve senin dushuncelerin dogru olsada ve bashka bir ozbek vatandashinin dushuncesi yanlish olsada, senin gelipte onun forumunda onu kinamaya ve ona akil olmaya hich bir hakkin yok. Yoksa yanlish mi konushuyorum? Diyeceksin, hanimima hakaret etti, dolayisiyla gururuma dokundu. Tamam, anlashilir, bir erkek ichin hanimina hakaret edilmesi chok agir batici bir olaydir, ama sen gerchek erkek olsan burda ozur dilettirmekten ilk once hanimina hakaret ettirmemelisin. Ettirmemelisin derken yanlishi haniminda aramalisin. Eger senin hanimin kendi davranishiyla kendine hakaret ettirerek seni rezil ediyorsa, gelip te burda kendini her kesden akilli gostererek adamlara tavsiye ve yol gestermenle onurunu koruyabilecegini tahmin etmishsen chok yaniliyorsun. Sen erkek ol, ve kendini milletin onunde maskara etme.
Sagol

Wa'assalam.

Prianik

03-13-2003, 05:54 PM

what are you talking about, man!!! . if someone knows his history and likes his nation and doens't want to be under russian "patronage", it doesn't mean that he or she is racist!!! please pay attention what you say .

the answer to ur question is

so why is a book destroyed just because it was published in USSR or Russia?

and most of u agreed with that another "smart" move of the government. That's what i'm talking about. it is just stupid. at least economically wrong. why reinvent the wheel? why republish, I should say copy the same content but in uzbek, book when it was there. i'm sick of such people who are just directed, zombies. and those history teachers were shitting Timur during soviet times. now they find themselves praising him. tommorow they will start the cycle again if asked to do so. DISGUSTING.

Алматинец

03-13-2003, 10:46 PM

Kolobok

Почему вас заинтересовал Тимур?
- Гений и власть - вот что меня занимает. Во времена Тимура война кормила людей. И Тимур кормил свой народ. Вернувшись из похода, Тимур в течение трех-четырех лет занимался искусством, наукой, строительством, а потом выстраивал воинов, шел вдоль шеренги и смотрел им в глаза - и по блеску в их глазах он видел, что они созрели для войны. Мы с Фридрихом долго думали, почему же, взяв Елец, Тимур не пошел на Москву? Долго ковырялись в документах, пока не догадались. В сценарии есть эпизод: Тимур стоит на берегу реки, смотрит на холодную, нищую Русь и думает, что же он отсюда возьмет в свой Самарканд? Медвежьи шкуры, лапти? Он поворачивается и уходит в Багдад, Константинополь, Дамаск, где берет колоссальную добычу. Но факт остается фактом: Тимур, разбив Тохтамыша, избавил Русь от Золотой Орды.
вы что думаете Тимур был узбеком?
сорри заранее хочу сказать что я не утверждаю что он был казахом:)

Алматинец

03-13-2003, 10:52 PM

Насчет роли России могу однозначно сказать не будь ее в истории
Казахстана и Средней Азии то были бы мы такими же государствами как
Монголия,Афганистан и тд..
Не надо преуменьшать значения и влияния на нашу культуру роли России ..
я имею ввиду ту Россию которая была до 1917 года ..
позднее во временя Гражданской войны я промолчу..
Да культура азиатов была на высоком уровне .. но все эти достижения к сожаленю остались бы там в том времени!
не зря говорят Петр прорубил окно в Европу .
и сбрил бороды боярам. и армию реформировал ..
ладно чет начал а закончить не знаю как.. :)

Siege

03-14-2003, 01:58 AM

mujreem, Салом Мужрим!
ТЫ ГОВОРИШЬ СВОБОДНО НА УЗБЕКСКОМ, РУССКОМ, АНГЛИЙСКОМ, КОРЕЙСКОМ, ТУРЕЦКОМ! :shock:
ТЫ ЕЩЕ СКОЛЬКО ЯЗЫКОВ ЗНАЕШЬ?
МУЖРИМ Я ТЕБЯ УВАЖАЮ ЗА ЭТО!

Siege

03-14-2003, 02:14 AM

Guest,
very beautiful language, it's really wonderful when a person can speak his own language so fluently.

Keep it up Batur!

Вот балван-то, почему это он не должен говорить на турецком свободно, если это единственный язык на котором он говорит :shock:?

Batur

03-14-2003, 02:20 AM

Sayin Mujreem arkadas,
cevabin icin tesekkurler. Sende istersen, kulturlu ve sevyeli bir duzeyde fikirleri tartismak isterim. Bence senin soylediklerinde yalniz cok celiski var.
Yazdiklarinda burada benim bir yabanci olarak birsey yazma hakkimin olmadigimi soyluyorsun. Teoretik olarak dedigin dogru, ben burada bir hak talep edemem, ama vijdanen senin bunu deme hakkin kalmadi. Cunku senden, bu forumda sacmaliklar yazan Ermenilere, kufur eden Tajikler, Ruslar ve diger yabancilar uzerine hic boyle birsey dedigini gormedik.
Ben burada O'zbekistani ve Orta Asyayi kalbiyle seven, oralarin duzelmesini, insanlarin ozgur ve refah icinde yasamasini dileyen ve onun icin caba gostermek isteyen, kardes bir halktan birisi olarak yaziyorum. Beni dinlersin dinlemezsin o baska bir sey - ama ben dogru gordugum bir seyi yazmam gerekir. Bazen uzaktan bakan birisi olaylari daha net ve tam boyutu ile gorebiliyor.
Zaten globallesen bir dunyada senin dedigin gibi "kendi yaginda kendin kavrul" politikasi ile cok uzaklara varabilinecegine süphem var.
Bu forumda gozume baten bir olusum var. Belirli konular uzerine belli istirakcilar tabular olusturmuslar. Bunlar uzerine konusan veya farkli fikirde olan herkes hemen hakaretler yiyor.
Eger bu forumda ruslarin gecmis tarihte yaptiklari kotulukler, duzenledikleri emperyal oyunlar, halklar uzerine gelen trajediler, kaybettirtikleri dil ve kultur ve baska insani suclari anlatirsan - vay senin haline!
Bir de din! Ben simdi "Din, Allah, Bismillah" deseydim bir Mujreem kalkipta bana bunlari soylermiydi? Hayir hemen ooooo gel din kardes derdi - demedinmi? O zaman ne olacak belli.

Esas Ozbekistan icin en buyuk trajedi bu tur bir zihneyet sahip olan insanlarin ileride Ozbekistani yonetecegi olmasi!
Bu carpiklik anormal boyutlar almis.

Bence gecmisini gormeyen, gelecegine ipotek koymustur! Farkli insanlar farkli fikirleri var deyip demokrasi dersi vermeye kalkiyorsun, ama yabancisin diye sen konusma diyorsun. Dogruysa fikir dogrudur! Kim derse desin.
Bundan dolayi en basta hanimim burada istedigini yazma ve soyleme hakki vardir! Demokrasi boyle baslar !!!!

Siege

03-14-2003, 02:26 AM

Batur, Турка я тебе не хрена не понимаю! Do you speak English?

Batur

03-14-2003, 02:31 AM

It is ur problem ;)

Siege

03-14-2003, 02:44 AM

Batur,
It is ur problem

Yes it’s my problem that you can’t speak English! Illeterate turka!

Siege

03-14-2003, 03:07 AM

cupid: 2a14e47a,
Nu vot ti Siege - prekrasno pishesh po russki, pohozhe dazhe luchseh uzbekskogo (titulnaya natsiya govorit na yazike aggressora), (titulnaya natsiya govorit na yazike aggressora Tebe lish-bi pozhalavot'sya russkim, za to chto malen'kaya zarplata ili kushat' malo.

nu da, s takimi "proud uzbekami" stroit budushee Uzbekistan, eh...

Nu vot ti Siege - prekrasno pishesh po russki

И искрене горжусь этим.

titulnaya natsiya govorit na yazike aggressora

predpochitaesh togo chtobi nad uzbekami pravila Moskva

Нет я не Москву предпочитаю, а мудрых и гумманных людей.

Tebe lish-bi pozhalavot'sya russkim, za to chto malen'kaya zarplata ili kushat' malo.

Надо жить сегодняшним днем! Старшего Русского брата - нет! Он приказал нам долго жить, подарив нам Независимость.
Сейчас есть дядя Сэм и ЕЭС которым не грех иногда пожаловаться, что мы все часто и делаем, за что им огромное спасибо (хоть кому то не наплевать на простого человека).

nu da, s takimi "proud uzbekami" stroit budushee Uzbekistan, eh...

Слава Аллаху, я не одинок и верю что за нами будущее!

Спасибо за внимание.

03-14-2003, 03:46 AM

siege is proud of licking somebodys ass
shto je delat esli on eo etogo kayfuyet

nemets

03-14-2003, 04:38 AM

It is ur problem ;)

Batur, sorry but i didn't understand your post as well.
What is the reason to write a post, when only a few people can understand it? Isn't better to send a private message?

cupid

03-14-2003, 04:50 AM

It is ur problem ;)

Batur, sorry but i didn't understand your post as well.
What is the reason to write a post, when only a few people can understand it? Isn't better to send a private message?

nima deb yozganingni anglamadim, o'zbekcha yoz :P

sorry nemets, but many do not understand you too. Could you please write in uzbek, or else not many people in Uzbekistan understand English well.

Siege, if you do not understand uzbek - it's your problem. You are be "proud uzbek", who is actually proud to speak russians as the native russian speaker :D learn uzbek, then you will be able understand turkish as well, they are quiete similar languages.

P.S. to admins - why some guys are not allowed to use nationality nicks and this nemets is allowed to ?? double standards?

nemets

03-14-2003, 05:27 AM

Cupid,
It seems you are proud to know turkis language?! Good for you. Have you ever tried to speak in uzbek with turk? What do you think he would say, if you force him to undertand you? As for me I have tried to talk here in germany with turks in uzbek language. Useless! But I have never forced them to understand me. I undertand something in turkish. I mean there are similarities, of course. Turks could understand a few things in uzbek as well. But, eventually we just started to talk in german. The reason of my post is just to say, that the common languages here, in forum, are uzbek, english and russian. I think that almost everybody understand these languages. And the use of any other languages in forum would sound not tactfull. For these purposes there are other topics on this forum available.
Again, I have nothing aginst the turkis language.

Regarding my nick: it has nothing to do with my nationality. Did you get the difference?

Best regards,
Nemets.

03-14-2003, 06:43 AM

Nemets,

hendi hoh, los-los, schnell-schnell

cupid

03-14-2003, 08:26 AM

nemets,

it does not make a sence what you say. I didn't say I am proud that I speak turkish, but just mentioned that languages are very similar. You also confirmed it by your example as well - without learning turkish you can understand some turkish, the same thing with turks - they get some uzbek. If you read Batur's topic you'll see that what he wrote is quiet similar to uzbek - if you are good in uzbek you'll get what he writes. Peronally, I think the way turks speak their own language is a good example for us too, if you read messages in this forum, you'll see that only few can write in proper uzbek.

What does not look oK is the behaviour of Siege, who aggressively attacks girls and guests in this forum - just see how Siege addresses Batur " Yes it’s my problem that you can’t speak English! Illeterate turka!" Siege reminds me a typical alkohololic russian, who tries to gain respect by bringing others down. Russians used to call those uzbeks, who did not speak good russian "churka". By calling uzbeks "churka" a russian felt that he was more cultured than "churka", who does not speak russian well. Siege is doing the same thing here. You know, this is very rude and primitive behaviour, what one can see in criminal circles and prisons.

As for your nick - "nemets", it is a nationality title, whether you are german or not. As you know such nicks are not allowed by forum rules. I just wonder if administrators enforce forum rules equelle to all users or not.

Siege

03-14-2003, 09:06 AM

cupid: 2a14e47a,
What does not look oK is the behaviour of Siege, who aggressively attacks girls and guests in this forum - just see how Siege addresses Batur " Yes it’s my problem that you can’t speak English! Illeterate turka!" Siege reminds me a typical alkohololic russian, who tries to gain respect by bringing others down. Russians used to call those uzbeks, who did not speak good russian "churka". By calling uzbeks "churka" a russian felt that he was more cultured than "churka", who does not speak russian well. Siege is doing the same thing here. You know, this is very rude and primitive behaviour, what one can see in criminal circles and prisons.

Я тебя и по фене сделаю, чурка....

03-14-2003, 01:32 PM

Batur

03-15-2003, 03:16 AM

To Siege!
Of course it will be no problem for me to speak english. Also "illeterate turkish" people are able to learn it. But its not the thing. I dont wanna speak english and of course never russian in a Uzbek forum. I think its only natural to use also turkish as a relative language in an Uzbek forum!
The difference between you and me is, that you think, by speaking russian, you see the world and you're kind of intellectual.
My dear it belongs a lot more to be intelligent! What you and youre friends is writing here, must be categorized as absoluty bullshit!
But I think you're not an uzbek! You must be a russian, and Iam sure you living in Russia - never been in Uzbekistan!

To Prianik!
Do you know, what it means to use the "Sovjet flag" in your avatar? It means to piss on the graves of the thousands and millions of the victims of sovjet period. To laugh on the millions killed or deported to the gulags and the millions of uzbeks sended sencelessy to the war! You better think before you use such shit!

Bundan keyin O'zbek forumida o'zbekche va turkche yazishge harakat qilaman!!!

Siege

03-15-2003, 03:30 AM

Batur, My turkish oponent!
Being an Uzbek and living in Uzbekistan I do not have to know Turkish.
Though turkish is similar to Uzbek, it is diffrent languages, Uzbek is of Karluk group and Turkish is Oguz group!
Oguzs are azeries, turkmens and partialy karakalpaks. And Karluks are Uzbeks and Uygurs (who I perfectly understand).

Talking about Soviet Union. You turka - (comedy hero in Russian) shut up and forget about our past!
I'm Uzbek and want to be friends with russians!
And turks too, but not you thanksgiving turkey! :D

nemets

03-15-2003, 03:39 AM

Hei Batur!
I am pretty pissed off. What the hell are you talking about? Who the hell you are to give instructions what kind of avatars one should use. All of us were born in Soviet Union. And it has gone. I am not going just to erase the times I spent there.
And do not remind here about the victims of soviet era. Do not forget about the armenian victims. Nobody remind you here about genocide of armenians in Turkey.

03-15-2003, 04:02 AM

Prianik

03-15-2003, 04:59 AM

Do you know, what it means to use the "Sovjet flag" in your avatar? It means to piss on the graves of the thousands and millions of the victims of sovjet period. To laugh on the millions killed or deported to the gulags and the millions of uzbeks sended sencelessy to the war! You better think before you use such shit!

lol, what a crap thinking. indeed who are u to tell me what to do. u know, I like turks and have many friends among u, but one thing i cant stand in some turks is they push their ideas on u. it is mainly concerned about great turkish history and how they influenced all turkic nation (note TURKIC not TURKISH cos some idiots dont diffirentiate). They even think that we were under osman empire once. They try to be "big brother" for all of us in central asia (like u trying to be now telling forum users what to do) poor they are they even dont know that turkish boyazid was defeated by our very own timur. nevermind.

nemets

03-15-2003, 05:01 AM

HEy NEMETS!!!!

Woüber redest du , MAN???????????????? was für ein GONOZIT???????????? Das war normaler Krieg, kapiert!!!! und ausserdem haben die Armenier selber auch unschuldige türkische Zivilisten umgebracht. sie haben Türken und die türkische Armee im Krieg gegen die russen verrätet.danach wurden sie nach heutige Surien and Libanon vertrieben. SIE WAREN SELBER SCHULDIG!!!Das war eine Antwort für das VERRAT. Huetige so gennate "WESTARMENIEN" ist scheisse.

Don't forget that armenian "DASHNAKSUTYUN" groups were very active during 1920th in the battles on the side of RED ARMY aganist so called "Basmachis" who fought for my and for your independence.

mit freudlichen Grüssen

Ещё раз хочу выразить, что мне порядком начали действовать на нервы все эти националистические выпадки. Откуда такая ненависть у людей к представителям других наций. Расслабьтесь. Получили независимость, так радуйтесь. Что теперь бегать и кричать, мол вот какие русские, евреи, армяне итд плохие. Поработили нас узбеков и мы теперь будем мстить. Сейчас намного больше других проблем, нежели разжигание межнациональной розни.
Будьте здоровы,

Sorry for my writing in german, but this message is for guest, since he has no account.

Hör jetzt genau zu. Ich bin hier nicht zu diskutieren, wer schuldig und wer nicht. Ich habe schon erwähnt, dass niemand hier wirft dir Vorwürfe an die Türken für die Täte vor, die über das armenische Volk ausgeübt worden waren. Aber als die Antwort für diene Wörter sage ich: „Keiner hat das Recht die Rache über die Frauen und Kinder für die Täte der bestimmten Leuten auszuüben“
Der Schwerpunkt ist, dass „gemacht-getan“. Genauso in Sowjet Union, wo nicht nur die Russen schuld waren. Die Russen sind im Vergleich zu den anderen Volkern am meisten getroffen worden waren. Niemand erwähnt hier die Vertreibung der meschetischen Türken aus Usbekistan. Man muss aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit die Lehre ausziehen. Keiner ist perfekt. Man muss auch verzeihen können und nicht ein Messer in der Tasche verstecken um die Rache zu nehmen für die Vergangenheit.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Nemets.

kichkin

03-15-2003, 11:39 AM

Dear Fellows,
I'd like to contribute to your discussion. As far as I understood history and literature are the most important subjects at school. 'Cause they shape vision of the world and to life of an individual-citizen.
In other words it is classroom where state coins its body politic.
So the present content of history manuals are acceptable for local authorities. However, as a foreigner interested in centralasian region I would be grateful for someone who could share with what interpretation of historical events are suggested as alternative by Russian Embassade, or by opponents( local scholars) of the present interpretation of history.
As far as I know Mr.Khidoyatov is a distinguished historian, known for his monographies on Uzbek history and interantional relations in the East, what are his arguments, historical evidences?

Sprinter

03-15-2003, 11:49 AM

Guest,
I am afraid that you are totally wrong while you are talking about Uzbek schools. I give you an example: Our school was just by the Russian shool. We could see them hanging around and making out around the school during the classes. Their teachrs saw them but did'nt even care.

MUHLIS

03-15-2003, 12:01 PM

WHAT DA HUCK IS ALL ABOUT????? RUSIIA HAS NEVER BEEN OUR FRIEND!

_Charosoy_

03-15-2003, 03:15 PM

MUHLIS 100% agree with you. You bring it with one sentence to the point!
Rasiya davlati hich qachon do'stimiz bo'lmagan va bo'lmaydi ham! :!:

spoon

03-15-2003, 03:25 PM

_Charosoy_,
А где вы провели свое детство, точнее под какой властью?
не советской?

Kolobok

03-15-2003, 03:48 PM

Неблагодарные :evil: :(

Batur

03-15-2003, 04:10 PM

To Siege!
You couldnt be an Uzbek. The Uzbeks I know are proud people and aware of there honour. They are proud of their history - look at you - youre a poor russian ass-licker!!
You wanna be friends with russians - with this brain you can be only their servant! But its your problem! Thanks god there are lot of "normal" Uzbeks I know.
Don't try to teach me about turkic languages. You even dont know any word any turkic language! But before you answer, read what I wrote. I dont say that you should understand turkish, but its a relative language and people who wanna understand it, could do it very easly!
But in a russian brain like yours is too much Vodka to understand it!

To Prianik!
The same to you man! Read exactly what people had written, before answering them. I never tell anybody what to do, never talk about such Ideas and never wanna be a big brother of anybody!
The fact is, that you live in the past - with a sovjet brain, dazzled by russian propaganda!
After the end of a period its normal to look back and see, what happened during this time. Who ist guilty? Who are the participants and colloborates! What happened with the victims? You have to clear things in history - what you and youre friens are do is to put the head in the sand!
If you dont know your past and learn from it, youre future is in danger! But what I see is that guys like you idealize this period.

Sorry but I have to write in German to our naively friend Nemets
To Nemets!
Ich habe seit langem noch nie soviel Naivitat in einem Beitrag gelesen, wie aus deinem! Sicherlich muss man verzeihen k?nnen, aber bevor man sowas tut, muss man wissen wer der Schuldige ist! Dein Beitrag mit der Bemerkung, dass die Russen am meisten unter der Sowjet-Zeit gelitten hatten grenzt schon an "hochwertigen Schwachsinn". Man, lies mal mehr ?ber die Geschichte und lern mal was uber den russischen Imperialismus! Dann wirst du uns mit diesem Blodsinn verschonen.
Dein "Beitrag" mit den Armeniern war extrem geschmacklos!
Hier ist niemand ein Nationalist, wenn er anmahnt sich mit der Vergangenheit ernsthaft ich sage nochmals ERNSTHAFT zu beschaftigen und nicht so blauaugig zu sein wie du! Weisst du, Unabhangigkeit fangt im Kopf an! Bei dir und den anderen "Sowjet-Nostalgikern" ist die Unabhangigkeit noch nicht angekommen! Mit diesem denken werdet ihr immer eine Kolonie bleiben!

_Charosoy_

03-15-2003, 04:15 PM

Aleek man O'zbek bo'lib tug'ildim, va hozir sizga ham eslatay mustaqil O'zbekiston davlatida yashayapmiz :) :!:

CrazyDT

03-15-2003, 04:18 PM

MUHLIS,_Charosoy_, Define friendship ?

And can you call Americans friend, who turned its back once it has finished its business. I don't think there is such thing as a country friend. Everyone acts in its own self interest.

Anyway, I think everything is to the best what happened. If we didn't have the history like we did, then we'll be pretty much like Afghanistan or Pakistan where the majority of population is illiterate taken over by religion.

And MUHLIS, Even after getting our so-called independence we still shit in our pants. Instead of being nationalists lets get to work, and improve what we can, and not be ignorant of what others say to help us.

Kolobok

03-15-2003, 04:34 PM

Aleek man O'zbek bo'lib tug'ildim, va hozir sizga ham eslatay mustakil O'zbekiston davlatida yashayapmiz :) :!:
Сначало я хочу попросить прощения у Алеек,что лезу... :)
_Чаросой_, при всём моём уважении к вам,я буду здерживать себя,но я даже подумал отправить этот пост как простой гуест,чтобы полностью выразить своё мнение,но я поступаю иначе.
Чаросопа,вы родились Узбечкой,живя при Советском Союзе,чтобы там не говорили,вы кушали священный хлеб этого режима,пусть он был плохим или хорошим,зная это всё, вы выражаете чувство неблагодарности,грубо говоря вы забыли своё детство,вы плюнули на свою детство. :( И то что вы говорите,что русские никогда небыли друзьями и небудут,меня сильно разочеровало.Извините,но вы не правы. :(

va hozir sizga ham eslatay mustakil O'zbekiston davlatida yashayapmiz :)

Нет, вы в Германии.

_Charosoy_

03-15-2003, 04:47 PM

CrazyDT.. Tarihni yahshilab o'qing, keyin o'zizga keling! Tarihda ba'zi bir o'lkalarning ahvoli yomon bo'lishi, bu halqi ahmoq bo'lganidan emas, balkim boshqa imperialistik kuchlarning o'yinchoq holiga tushib qolgani sababli sodir bo'ladi,do'stim! Agar buni tushunmasangiz, ohirgi 200 yillik tarihni umuman bilmaganligizni dalolat beradi. Yahsayotgan tuprog'imizda ilm, madaniyat , ma'naviyat judayam yuksak cho'qqida bo'lgani haqida sizga eslatmasam ham bo'ladi shekili, deb o'ylayman ;)
Madaniyat chor imperiya kirib kelganda boshlmadi.
Sovet davrida ular bizga bergan 3-4 ta asfaltlangan ko'cha uchun, qurgan maktabi va 5-6ta kasalhonasi uchun mi rahmat deyishim kerak???
Lekin hich kimingiz yo'qotganlarimiz haqida o'ylab ham ko'rmaysiz. Balki, o'z taqdirimizni o'z qo'limizga bo'lsa edi, yanada yuksak cho'qqilarda bo'lar edik, deb o'ylayman.

Ruslarga qarshi manda hech qanday salbiy, shahsiy muammom yo'q . Lekin haqiqatni ochiq oydin gapirish kerak!!!!

CrazyDT

03-15-2003, 05:04 PM

It's very obvious who is swinging which side. It's very bias discussion. This nationalism blinds us. Uzbekistan government has spent several years, and tons of human resource, and other kind of resources to wipe out russians from our history, and concentrating on its own made up thing, all this Timurlan crap. Timur has been to us, in direct sense, noone. What our government needed was to focus on something else, so we can stop listening what russians have to say. I'm not taking any of the side, but you can't ignore the fact that russians played its role, and yes they build infrastructure, though it might not be enough for some like for Charosoy herself.

Lazy Tank

03-15-2003, 05:05 PM

Rossia i vrag, i dryg, teper eshe i partner.

_Charosoy_

03-15-2003, 05:07 PM

Kolobok, izvini pri vsem uvajeniyi k tebe, tvoye viskazivaniya eto prosto kak kolonialniy sindrom. Ne ya doljna blagodarit ih, a oni doljni izvinitsya za vse. Ya jila svoyey strane, a ne ihney. Ya doljna blagodarit za visushanniy Aral?, za ubitih bez prichin tisyachi sootechestvennikov? I za drugiyi ihniyi postupki... A nashet plevatsya :D plyuesh ti na svoih predkov, a ne ya. O'zbeklar shunchalik ahmoqmi, o'z nonini topa olmaydigan darajada.....?????
Ya ne ispitivayu blagodarnosti za eto vse ruskim i ne goryus ob etom kak ti govorish
;)
Nashet Germaniyi, esli ya tut jivu ya perestayu bit Uzbechkoy :? Kolobok ti ne ponel smisl moih slov.

Nashet togo chto ya pishu, eto ne dlya togo chto bi kto to menya uvajal ili bil razocherovan, drug moy. :) Tut idet diskusiya i ona bivayet vremenami besposhadnoy!!!

_Charosoy_

03-15-2003, 05:12 PM

CrazyDT, bud drugom mojesh podrobno napisat ob etih infrostrukturah?? :?

trigger-happy logged off

03-15-2003, 05:23 PM

What are you guys talking about? There are no friends in politics - there are allies. And a smart government will make allies with most powerful countries that will offer them the best deal. It seems Uzbekistan went with the U.S. instead of Russia (wise choice). To this end, Russia cannot be our ally (of for all simpleminded folk, a "friend"), but to call it an "enemy" is as simpleminded. Yes, there are stupid Russian politicians like Zhirinovsky who want to fly a Russian flag in our country, but they are not being taken seriously even by Russians themselves. For the most part, Russia cannot be our enemy - simple becasue it doesn't have any significant strategic interest in our country. (I don't think anyone would consider cotton a big political asset.)

CrazyDT

03-15-2003, 05:30 PM

I'll stop because it goes nowhere. This kinda pitying to the past history won't bring any good. There will be a lot of what ifs. So, I could say it could've been worse. We're merely lucky that we don't have a war in our own back yard. The peace doesn't come by default. Just turn around and see what's happening in the world. The world is its self full of nasty things. Back then uzbekistan was in parts and pieces fighting with each other. We were not even able to stand united. There are different cultures within our own culture.

And please, wipe up your assumption that uzbeks are most friendly people, we can get as nasty as other national. Live in uzbekistan in see.

It's my last say. It's a waste of time, and please, stop complaining otherwise you'll end up with 'koryto'.

Prianik

03-15-2003, 06:55 PM

oh kak ya ustal ot etih nacionalostov. molchali 70 let, teper orut na ves golos. nizko. i voshe istoriya eto istoriya, proshloe. mlya predpolojite chto russkie kak drugie strani nashi partneri i nado rabotat s nimi a nenavist ostavit v proshlom. simply no point. stupidito

Kolobok

03-16-2003, 12:00 AM

Чаросой,если они извенятся,тебе легче станет? Tы с того дня будешь уважать русских как друга нашего народа? :) Hmda...
What are you guys talking about? There are no friends in politics - there are allies.
Bravo!
No comments ;)

nemets

03-16-2003, 09:02 AM

HEy NEMETS!!!!

SIE WAREN SELBER SCHULDIG!!!Das war eine Antwort für das VERRAT. Huetige so gennate "WESTARMENIEN" ist scheisse.

Batur and Guest! (i guess you are the same person)
You are telling that armenian women and children deserved to be raped during the genocide.
Tell to your turkish friends that turks in Ferghana deserved to be raped in 1989, ok. And look what they tell you.
Whoever kills another person, should be punished. But when the children and women are raped just because somebody of their nationality commited a crime, the person who raped her or forced the others to rape them, should be double punished, namely publicly executed, so that the others could see and remember. Those busturds in Ferghana in 1989, who pushed the others to kill turks, should have been punished and those who began the genocide in Turkey or any other country.

I do not give a shit to your turkish nationalistic bustards, who washed up your brain. I care about other uzbek citizens including armenian and russians.
Tell me one thing, are the most of turks so nationalistic? I met a lot of them, and you know, the majority are of the same mind as you. Here in Germany, there are two types of turks:
1. Modern and educated, who do not care about nationality.
2. And the second, so-called second class, who make only the dirty job. And this type is the most nationalitc. They always talk about the great Turkish empire and that the germans are assholes and their wifes are bitches.
Where is their empire? It has gone as well as great romic empire. But some busturds are still hoping that they are still that superior nation. In russian there is a good saying: “Если нечем гордиться, то гордятся своим происхождением”. I guess you understood.

MUHLIS

03-16-2003, 09:17 AM

Неблагодарные :evil: :(

Can you please express yourself in a more comprehensive way?

MUHLIS

03-16-2003, 09:18 AM

_Charosoy_,
А где вы провели свое детство, точнее под какой властью?
не советской?
What is your point?

MUHLIS

03-16-2003, 09:44 AM

"]MUHLIS,_Charosoy_, Define friendship ?
What is wrong with that?

And can you call Americans friend, who turned its back once it has finished its business. I don't think there is such thing as a country friend. Everyone acts in its own self interest.
Is this a part of the issue we are discussing here? I mean USA. Do not try to be sooo damn smart a*s please, be yourself and try to discuss in a modest way...Countries are also like families...they also need friends...But Russia had never been our frineds that is for sure, however, it does not mean that they are our enemies as well...You know what i mean?

Anyway, I think everything is to the best what happened. If we didn't have the history like we did, then we'll be pretty much like Afghanistan or Pakistan where the majority of population is illiterate taken over by religion.
Sorry for being rude but this is a steritypical opinion of brainwashed pro-russian zombies....Never, ever never ever touch Afganistan!!!! It the Afganistan who became one of the biggest victims of communists!!!! Whatever happened in Afganistan happened because of Russians...Everything strarted with idea of "exporting communism"!!!! Before you talk about Afganistan, go and do some readings about it (of course not from russian sources)!!! As for Pakistan, they are much advanced and strong country than you think!!! They have nuclear weapons, theyir economy is better that your ideal country's (russia) economy more that twice!!! After all, they are good muslim people!!!
If we paraphrase what you and other brainwashed zombies say it would sound like this: Russia is our saviour, We are so grateful for them because they invaded as, killed our grandfathers, send them to siberia, raped our women!!! We are so proud of Russia because they treat us as their slaves and also shows no sign of respect to our culture and history...Oh, thank God that Russia invaded us, otherwise we would have been like stone age people, I know this because my holy brother Vasya taought me this!!! We are not able to do anything ourselves because we are slaves and cannot live without our holy brother Vasiliy!!!
That how you sound!
And MUHLIS, Even after getting our so-called independence we still shit in our pants. Instead of being nationalists lets get to work, and improve what we can, and not be ignorant of what others say to help us.[/quote]
Hm, very interesting approach! Ok, I agree that we are in economic difficulties right now...But who is not??? So, why do you think this can be a good reason to think that russia is our saviour??? I know we have big problems in administrative structure, we problems in scio-economic sphere....HEY COME ON, THESE PROBLEMS ARE OURS!!!! IF YOU ARE NOT CONFIDENT ABOUT FIXING THEM OURSELVES, WE ARE CONFIDENT!!! WE YOU PREFER TO LIVE IN A CAGE AS A SLAVE, WE PREFER TO LIVE IN FREEDOM!!!
HEY, WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND UNDER THE WORD "NATIONALISM"???? ARE YOU CALLING ME NATIONALIST??? I AM NOT NATIONALIST!!!!! IT IS YOU WHO IS BLINDLY SERVING FOR "GREATRUSSIAN NEONASIZM"!!!!!
I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE LIKE THAT....YOU ARE LIKE ADOPTED PET....YOU ARE SO DEPENDENT ON YOUR OWNER THAT YOU CANNOT SURVIVE WITHOUT HIM/HER......
THANK ALLAH THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE VERY FEW IN MY COUNTRY!!!

MUHLIS

03-16-2003, 10:22 AM

Nemes wrote:

Tell to your turkish friends that turks in Ferghana deserved to be raped in 1989, ok. And look what they tell you.
Whoever kills another person, should be punished. But when the children and women are raped just because somebody of their nationality commited a crime, the person who raped her or forced the others to rape them, should be double punished, namely publicly executed, so that the others could see and remember. Those busturds in Ferghana in 1989, who pushed the others to kill turks, should have been punished and those who began the genocide in Turkey or any other country.[
oh boy, you went too far....if you were close to me right now.....
Anyway, first of all, I am from Ferghana valley! I witnessed all what happened!!! I used to have classmates from meshetian turks, there were several families of meshetian turks in our mahalla...I still remember my friends from my childhood....You know what in meshetian turks in our mahalla had no defference from us, they studied in Uzbek schools (and not russian) in other words they were tru member of our mahalla....very rarely we remembered about their nationality...Being a cheld once I asked from my friend (his name was Rustam) to tell few words in his language...when he told them I called him a liar!!! We also had many Tatar people too...they also were pretty much like meshetian turks ...who spoke perfect uzbek....Also we had some russians....here we go...they knew not a single word in Uzbek!!!! that is what i know from my living area.....
If you are sooo interested in the real history why all that happened, I would reccomend you to read a book called "Fitna San'ati", I unfortunately, do not remember the authors name right now....It was published in early nineties. The author uses a lot archieve materials in his book. As many people know from the history of sssr, many muslim and turkic nation were deported to Central Asia during Stalin's regime....Meskhetian turks were also displaced from their native lands during that ime just as like cremian tatars....close to the collapce of the evil empire, there was strong willingness among displased meskhetian turks about returning to native lands....which is very understandable!!! according to that book which uses a lot of archieve materials, Meskhetian turks in Uzbekistan several times wrote letters to Moskow requesting to give them the right to return to their motherland.....their requests were turned down all time.....If you look into socio-political situation in Uzbekistan (especially in Ferghana valley), you realize that people were in anti-soviet and anti-russian mood....In other word people was very and angry with barbarian attitude of russians towards local language and culture.....I cannot tell you all the book here, but I would reccomend you to read it. I eyewitnessed these bloody events...I do not think it was about or aganist Meskhetian turks.....KGB provokated this event and tried to create a backlash between two group of angry people....Incedent in Ferghana valley also, gave to Moskow the opportunity to call Uzbeks as "nationalists".....and use it in oppress awakening strong national feelings....since that time it became fashionable to call every uzbek as "nationalist" if he/she says something against russians......Anyway....but the events Ferghnana valley went off the KGB cenario and large very large groups of people kept accumulating in the area where I live....they were like a tornado.....people kept flowing from Namangan, Andijan....Kuva....all russians had to escape or hide out.....the crow was crying "death to kafirs" and so on.....it was very terrific...the crowd went to government buildings demanding justice and fair treatment of people.....but suddenly militsia started to fire unarmed crowd....i was not there but that is what i heard....that large "army" of people were determined to go in direction of Tashkent to put their requests...in other words "spillover effects" were much huge and unpresedented than KGB thought....Several military copters were flying around and srying some kind of smoke...in order to desperse unarmed civillians.....That is how sovients treated their civillians....on the ground "special torrps" shoot and beat up unarmed people....after that people start to disperse....if you go to Kokand, in "Ozodlik Hiyoboni" (freedom park?) there is a small stone monument in memory of those who were shot dead by militsia.....This monument was erected by Karimov in 1991 or so....
I do not give a shit to your turkish nationalistic bustards, who washed up your brain. I care about other uzbek citizens including armenian and russians.
If you care about Uzbeks, that is good. But it is interesting how you care....
“Если нечем гордиться, то гордятся своим происхождением”.
NO COMMENTS!

CrazyDT

03-16-2003, 03:03 PM

MUHLIS, You're fricking me out. What a rightist thinking you've got. Of course you're entitled to it, but man ...

Sorry for being rude but this is a steritypical opinion of brainwashed pro-russian zombies....

Brainwashed? By whom? By 4 TV channels of ours?

I know we have big problems in administrative structure, we problems in scio-economic sphere....HEY COME ON, THESE PROBLEMS ARE OURS!!!! IF YOU ARE NOT CONFIDENT ABOUT FIXING THEM OURSELVES, WE ARE CONFIDENT!!! WE YOU PREFER TO LIVE IN A CAGE AS A SLAVE, WE PREFER TO LIVE IN FREEDOM!!!

Is this your excuse to all those people who can barely feed themselves in Uz?

THANK ALLAH THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE VERY FEW IN MY COUNTRY!!!

Give them a chance, and they'll speak out. And you'll know that their number is more than you think.
Forum is open, and that’s why you know people like me.

03-16-2003, 03:33 PM

CrazyDT

03-16-2003, 04:04 PM

go and study more, it looks like you are too young...

Sorry, 99 year conservative MUHLIS, I think your intelligence bag is getting empty, and now you're turning to desperate maneuvers to undermine others. Btw, this is how Bush gets around.

Siege

03-17-2003, 01:41 AM

Batur,
You wanna be friends with russians - with this brain you can be only their servant! But its your problem! Thanks god there are lot of "normal" Uzbeks I know.

To Batur and others.

First I remember one not "normal" turk! He's 25% of turkish blood. He had not "normal" opinion about what kind of country Turkey shall be. He fought with that "anormal" Idea against "normal" turks . He's even loyal to Stalin (the devil itself -my opinion) . He changed his country so turks could live on in modern world!
His name is Kemal Ataturk.

About "normal" uzbeks now. The "normal" uzbeks do not let turkish business in Uzbekistan, they do not even let turks into the country. OK your wife is uzbek, you might visit Uz-n, but ask your friends, who want to visit Uz-n. Or just try to get Uz-k visa on your own! "Normal" uzbeks suck turkish business blood - you do not have to belive me, ask turkish businessmen!
The "noramal" uzbeks close turkish schools in Uzbekistan and teach kids that Russia is our worst enemy!
The same "normal" uzbek tought us 15 years ago that Turkey is nothing but cheap servant of capitalistic US and W.Europe!
Enough of "normal" uzbeks or you want to know more about them?

Regards.

Once agian let be friends with all intelegent and respecting us people of the world. Including Russia and Turkey and many others!

Eternity

03-17-2003, 02:41 AM

Dear forum participants!

First of all as I can see we are far away from our primer forum topic, the second one let's narrow.
If somebody wanna be friend with USA, pls go for it, but don't forget that's not for a long time. USA is interested in Uzbekistan now only because of geographical position, as you know. Muhlis, you look like as more american amateur, so study english instead of russian and proud of it. Personally, I very often don't even understnd what are your posts about.
Russia is not enemy of Uzbekistan it's for sure. I am proud had studied in russian school

Regards

Siege

03-17-2003, 02:48 AM

Siege,

Muhlis wrote:

Nemes wrote:

Quote:
Tell to your turkish friends that turks in Ferghana deserved to be raped in 1989, ok. And look what they tell you.
Whoever kills another person, should be punished. But when the children and women are raped just because somebody of their nationality commited a crime, the person who raped her or forced the others to rape them, should be double punished, namely publicly executed, so that the others could see and remember. Those busturds in Ferghana in 1989, who pushed the others to kill turks, should have been punished and those who began the genocide in Turkey or any other country.[

oh boy, you went too far....if you were close to me right now.....
Anyway, first of all, I am from Ferghana valley! I witnessed all what happened!!! I used to have classmates from meshetian turks, there were several families of meshetian turks in our mahalla...I still remember my friends from my childhood....You know what in meshetian turks in our mahalla had no defference from us, they studied in Uzbek schools (and not russian) in other words they were tru member of our mahalla....very rarely we remembered about their nationality...Being a cheld once I asked from my friend (his name was Rustam) to tell few words in his language...when he told them I called him a liar!!! We also had many Tatar people too...they also were pretty much like meshetian turks ...who spoke perfect uzbek....Also we had some russians....here we go...they knew not a single word in Uzbek!!!! that is what i know from my living area.....
If you are sooo interested in the real history why all that happened, I would reccomend you to read a book called "Fitna San'ati", I unfortunately, do not remember the authors name right now....It was published in early nineties. The author uses a lot archieve materials in his book. As many people know from the history of sssr, many muslim and turkic nation were deported to Central Asia during Stalin's regime....Meskhetian turks were also displaced from their native lands during that ime just as like cremian tatars....close to the collapce of the evil empire, there was strong willingness among displased meskhetian turks about returning to native lands....which is very understandable!!! according to that book which uses a lot of archieve materials, Meskhetian turks in Uzbekistan several times wrote letters to Moskow requesting to give them the right to return to their motherland.....their requests were turned down all time.....If you look into socio-political situation in Uzbekistan (especially in Ferghana valley), you realize that people were in anti-soviet and anti-russian mood....In other word people was very and angry with barbarian attitude of russians towards local language and culture.....I cannot tell you all the book here, but I would reccomend you to read it. I eyewitnessed these bloody events...I do not think it was about or aganist Meskhetian turks.....KGB provokated this event and tried to create a backlash between two group of angry people....Incedent in Ferghana valley also, gave to Moskow the opportunity to call Uzbeks as "nationalists".....and use it in oppress awakening strong national feelings....since that time it became fashionable to call every uzbek as "nationalist" if he/she says something against russians......Anyway....but the events Ferghnana valley went off the KGB cenario and large very large groups of people kept accumulating in the area where I live....they were like a tornado.....people kept flowing from Namangan, Andijan....Kuva....all russians had to escape or hide out.....the crow was crying "death to kafirs" and so on.....it was very terrific...the crowd went to government buildings demanding justice and fair treatment of people.....but suddenly militsia started to fire unarmed crowd....i was not there but that is what i heard....that large "army" of people were determined to go in direction of Tashkent to put their requests...in other words "spillover effects" were much huge and unpresedented than KGB thought....Several military copters were flying around and srying some kind of smoke...in order to desperse unarmed civillians.....That is how sovients treated their civillians....on the ground "special torrps" shoot and beat up unarmed people....after that people start to disperse....if you go to Kokand, in "Ozodlik Hiyoboni" (freedom park?) there is a small stone monument in memory of those who were shot dead by militsia.....This monument was erected by Karimov in 1991 or so....
Quote:
I do not give a shit to your turkish nationalistic bustards, who washed up your brain. I care about other uzbek citizens including armenian and russians.

If you care about Uzbeks, that is good. But it is interesting how you care....
Quote:
“Если нечем гордиться, то гордятся своим происхождением”.

NO COMMENTS!

_________________
Xalq dengizdir, Xalq to'lqindir, Xalq kuchdir,
Xalq isyondir, Xalq olovdir, Xalq o'chdir.

Abdulhamid Sulaymon o'gli, Cho'lpon

So did the KGB raped and cut throats of pregnant turkish women and then cut out unborn babies out of those women's bellys :shock: ? Did the KGB killed old turkish women and little babies in most bloodiest ways - cutting their throats with knifes like they were useless sheeps :shock: ? Right?

Or was it our "normal" uzbeks?...

:(