Implementation of latin letters to Uzbek language

[CrazyDT]

I'm not sure if this had been brought up before, but I've been always curious about it.

I've finished a high school in 1996. At the time latin letters were being implemented, and I never got to study them. Then after finishing HS I headed abroad to study. Since then, I've seen many revisions of letter sytem. Initially, it was very similar to Turkish writings. Then I started to notice all these extra weird letter disappearing. Which one is official? I see many inconsistencies how it's written, i.e. different places, different ways of using it. I am confused. And what was the main reason to introduce latin letters to uzbek writing? Which ultimately led to the majority of population to become illiterate. Especially, when most national schools are under-funded.

We used to write in cyrillic, and cyrilic didn't have enough letters for uzbek writing, that's why uzbek version had extra letter to make up for it. And the number of latin letters are less then cyrillic one, so even more to make up.

Do you think it's a mess ? I surely think so. And I don't think it's reversible either. It's too late, and we aren't even half way through.

What's the prospect of it? No one could properly explain to me.

What is your take on it?

DT

[Kolobok]

Good question.
Personly i think this is another mistake of our government,they didn't want to use cyrillic because of political situation with Russia,which is bullcrap.Well if so,why didn't they change it to arabic?! I Guess it would be great idea. Anyways,there is no point discussing this issue. :(

[CrazyDT]

Anyways,there is no point discussing this issue.


At least discussing it , would give us some understanding what's going on.

[NOAVATAR]

Kolobok, they moved away from Cyrillic due to the political reasons, which I think is not wrong. The more we are different from Russia the more we are independent, this was the main idea behind it. Regarding your question about Arabicm the answer is obvious, Uzbekistan has always wanted to be away from Arab culture, and has always taken route toward Westernization. Turkey-one of the closest nations to Uzbekistan which was not under Russian rule, had Latin script and it played quite a role in changing our script from Cyrrilic to Latin, don't forget that right after our independence we had the closest relations with Turkey. Later when Uzbekistan suddenly became super-nationalistic and proclaimed that Uzbekistan is not going to follow Turkey in anything, they made some changes in our script too, They decided that they will use only those letters which are present in English, and in case if we need to write a unique sound like q, ch, sh, o' etc we would use a combination of 2 other letters of English version of Latin. I remember one of the politicians in our parliament saying that this would even save money on computer keyboards, because we would not need a unique keyboard as it is case in Turkey.

Regards

[Alouddin]

Buhorogi,
Kolobok, they moved away from Cyrillic due to the political reasons, which I think is not wrong. The more we are different from Russia the more we are independent, this was the main idea behind it. Regarding your question about Arabicm the answer is obvious, Uzbekistan has always wanted to be away from Arab culture, and has always taken route toward Westernization. Turkey-one of the closest nations to Uzbekistan which was not under Russian rule, had Latin script and it played quite a role in changing our script from Cyrrilic to Latin, don't forget that right after our independence we had the closest relations with Turkey. Later when Uzbekistan suddenly became super-nationalistic and proclaimed that Uzbekistan is not going to follow Turkey in anything, they made some changes in our script too, They decided that they will use only those letters which are present in English, and in case if we need to write a unique sound like q, ch, sh, o' etc we would use a combination of 2 other letters of English version of Latin. I remember one of the politicians in our parliament saying that this would even save money on computer keyboards, because we would not need a unique keyboard as it is case in Turkey.

Regards


_________________
And Allah knows best

Buho®ogi


I was wondering what were the repricautions for taking a different path from Turkey's?.. I mean if they were buddies in the early 90s, what happened afterwards? why would they wanna change policies that rapidly?

Observer

[NOAVATAR]

Observer, Turkiya bilan butun O'rta Osiyo mamlakatlarining mustaqillikdan keyin dustona aloqalarining rivojlanishiga sababchi bulgan odam-Turgut Ozal(joyi jannatda bulsin). Buni hamma tan oladi. U odam dunyodan utganidan keyin, uning urniga kelgan siyosatchilar eski iliq aloqalarni davom ettira olmadilar. Turkiya uzini kotta aka day kursatishni boshladi. Uzbekiston esa endigina Rossiyaning buyuk oka tushunchasidan voz kechti. Shunday bir paytda Turkiyalik siyosatchilarning Orta Osiyo mamlakatlariga balandan pastga qarash qilishlari bizning yurtboshiga yoqmadi. Man bulsam ham shunday qilgan bulardim. Turklar bilan aloqalarimiz yaxshi davom etardi agar Turkiya aqlliroq yo'l tutganda edi.

[Alouddin]

Buhorogi,

hmmm... yaxshi fikrlar, lekin menimcha bu yerda faqatgina Turkiyani, o'zingiz tushunib turganizdek, ayblash yaxshi emas ;) bu yerda, menimcha, yana ekonomik va boshqa narsalar bor... masalan, Turkiyaning o'zini ekonomik inqirozga uchraganini olsak... yoki O'zbekiston hukumati Turkiyaga "oyoq bervorgan" M. Solixni orqaga so'raganida Turkiya "bu u kishini ishi" degani sabab bo'lgandir? 8) juuuuuuuuust curious :D

contacted... expressed curiosity... gone to continue observing,

Observer

[Batur]

Hurmetli forumcular,
dil ve dil reformu bence cok enteresan bir konu. Dil ve kullanilan yazi konusunu iki taraftan bakmak gerek

1. Dil bilimi tarafindan
Turk dillerinden birisi olan Ozbekcede sesli harfler cok muhimdir. Rusca ise daha cok sessiz harfler uzerine kurulmus bir dildir. O yuzden kiril alfabesi turk dillerine tam uymaz, cunku dillerin karakteri farklidir. Ayni sey arapca icinde gecerlidir. Arapcada turk dillerini yazmak tam mumkun degildir.
Latin alfabeyi kullanmak turk dillerinin yapisina daha cok uygundur. O yuzden latin alfabesini kullanmak cok normaldir. Yalniz latin alfabesi turk dillerinin oz yapisina gore degistirilmesi gerekir.
Bundan birkac yil once bilim adamlari tum turk dilleri konusan halklar icin ortak bir alfabeye teklif etmislerdi. Yalniz politika, en basta orta asya cumhuriyetleri bu muhim reforma karsi cikti. Tum turk halklarinin ortak kullandigi bir alfabe cok iyi olacakti. Bu alfabe sayesinde hepimiz birbirimizi daha iyi anlayabilecektik. Kitap, dergi ve diger publikasyonlar hazirlayanlar bu alfabeyi kullanarak cok ulkelerde yayinlarini satabileceklerdi. Cesitli ulkelerde yasayanlar fikirlerini daha kolay birbirlerine anlatabileceklerdi. Ayrica bilgisayar programlari yapanlar, cok buyuk bir insan sayisi bu alfabeyi kullandigi icin mecburen buna dikkate almak zorunda kalacakti.
Bu ilk adimi attiktan sonra ikinci buyuk hedef olan ortak bir "ust dil", yani resmi yerlerde konusulan bir dil, kendi kendine olusacakti.
Bu refom uygulansaydi turk dilleri cok daha gelisecek ve dunyada cok ragbet goren diller haline gelecekti.
Arkadaslar bunlari yazmak "Turancilik" veya "Turkculuk" ile bir alakasi yoktur. Bu cok pragmatik bir yaklasimdi.
Size bir misal vereyim. Bildiginiz gibi Almanya, Isvicre ve Avusturya m?stakil devletler. Her ?lkede Almanca konusuluyor. Bu ulkelerin hepsinde Almanca devlet dilidir, ama siveler cok farklidir. Ben mesela cok iyi Almanca bilmeme ragmen, Isvicrelileri hic anlayamam. Ama her uc ulkede devlette ve edebiyatta kullanilan ortak bir dil vardir, buna "yuksek Almanca" derler. Dil reformlar, yazi reformlari yapildiginda, bagimsiz ulkeler olmasina ragmen hep ortak hareket ederler. Bunun sayesinde Alman dili hep dunya dili olarak kabul gorur.

2. Politika ishe karisinca ne oldu
Maalesef politika dil bilimine karisinca olanlar oldu. Ozbekistan'da goya bir reform yapildi ama sonucunda, yapilan reform hicbir duzelme getirmedi. Simdi Ozbekistanda Ingilizce harflerle dili yazmaya calisiyorsunuz. Neymis, bilgisayarda zor olurmus? Ingilizcede sadece 5 sesli harf vardir, ama turk dillerini konusmak icin 8 taneye ihtiyac vardir. Yapilan reform uzun sure icinde Ozbek dilini fakirlestirecek ve sapitacaktir. Ayrica 2 harf kombinasyonlari ("sh" "ch" gibi) ve "tutug belirgisi" (O', u') dilin okunmasini cok zorlastiriyor.

Sonucunda: Dil reformu, diger konularda oldugu gibi turk halklarinin isbirligi icin kacirilan cok firsatlarinin bir tanesidir.
Ama bu kacirilan firsat en basta Orta Asya'daki diller icin buyuk bir sikinti getirecektir.

Not: T?rkiye Orta asyadaki cumhuriyetlerle iliskilerinde cok hatalar yapmistir. Ya kendisini "buyuk abi" olarak gormustur, veya hep Avrupayi dusundugu icin cok ilgisiz kalmistir. Halbuki bir Partner ve kardes olarak gormesi gerekirdi, cunku turklerinde sizlerden ogrenecegi cok seyler vardi. En basta kendi kaybolan kisiliklerini tekrar bulabilirlerdi.
Birde Turkiye'de ne kadar ishe yaramayan, firsatci, yankesici, yanlis adam varsa Ozbekistan gibi ulkeleri soymaya gitmislerdi. Ben ilk kez Ozbekistana geldigimde kendi ulkemden gelen turklerden utandim. Bunlar yuzkarasi insanlar!
Ama gercek Turkiye bu degil. Gercek Turkler daha yeni yeni kesfetmeye basliyorlar.
Umarim ileride daha farkli bir anlayis icinde bu kardes halklarin tekrar birbirlerine bulabilmeleridir.
Saygilarimla

[NOAVATAR]

Not: T?rkiye Orta asyadaki cumhuriyetlerle iliskilerinde cok hatalar yapmistir. Ya kendisini "buyuk abi" olarak gormustur, veya hep Avrupayi dusundugu icin cok ilgisiz kalmistir. Halbuki bir Partner ve kardes olarak gormesi gerekirdi, cunku turklerinde sizlerden ogrenecegi cok seyler vardi. En basta kendi kaybolan kisiliklerini tekrar bulabilirlerdi.
Birde Turkiye'de ne kadar ishe yaramayan, firsatci, yankesici, yanlis adam varsa Ozbekistan gibi ulkeleri soymaya gitmislerdi. Ben ilk kez Ozbekistana geldigimde kendi ulkemden gelen turklerden utandim. Bunlar yuzkarasi insanlar!
Ama gercek Turkiye bu degil. Gercek Turkler daha yeni yeni kesfetmeye basliyorlar.
Umarim ileride daha farkli bir anlayis icinde bu kardes halklarin tekrar birbirlerine bulabilmeleridir.

Soylediklerini destekliyorum, cok haklisin kardes :)

Size bir misal vereyim. Bildiginiz gibi Almanya, Isvicre ve Avusturya m?stakil devletler. Her ?lkede Almanca konusuluyor. Bu ulkelerin hepsinde Almanca devlet dilidir, ama siveler cok farklidir. Ben mesela cok iyi Almanca bilmeme ragmen, Isvicrelileri hic anlayamam. Ama her uc ulkede devlette ve edebiyatta kullanilan ortak bir dil vardir, buna "yuksek Almanca" derler. Dil reformlar, yazi reformlari yapildiginda, bagimsiz ulkeler olmasina ragmen hep ortak hareket ederler. Bunun sayesinde Alman dili hep dunya dili olarak kabul gorur.


As far As I understood your remark in Turkish, you emphasize on efficacy of having common language for all Turkic speaking nations. That is nice however, it should be noted that there is very big difference between Germans having three independent states and Turkic nations with their nation-states. Please try to understand that for example there are 22 or so Arabic nations-states, which have different dialects but use common official language. But Turkic naitons are not so. There are different Turkic nations and that should be taken as a fact.
In case of languages there are very big differences and it would be "blind emotion" to neglect these and try to bring everything on common denominator.


2. Politika ishe karisinca ne oldu
Maalesef politika dil bilimine karisinca olanlar oldu. Ozbekistan'da goya bir reform yapildi ama sonucunda, yapilan reform hicbir duzelme getirmedi. Simdi Ozbekistanda Ingilizce harflerle dili yazmaya calisiyorsunuz. Neymis, bilgisayarda zor olurmus? Ingilizcede sadece 5 sesli harf vardir, ama turk dillerini konusmak icin 8 taneye ihtiyac vardir. Yapilan reform uzun sure icinde Ozbek dilini fakirlestirecek ve sapitacaktir. Ayrica 2 harf kombinasyonlari ("sh" "ch" gibi) ve "tutug belirgisi" (O', u') dilin okunmasini cok zorlastiriyor.


If efficacy at stake, why not for Turkish to change their vowels to one adopted in Uzbeksitan and thus simplify the language for Europeans to learn, especially for Germans and Eastern Europeans as you know they use the same letters( as in Turksih alphabete) but for different vowels.

Sonucunda: Dil reformu, diger konularda oldugu gibi turk halklarinin isbirligi icin kacirilan cok firsatlarinin bir tanesidir.
Ama bu kacirilan firsat en basta Orta Asya'daki diller icin buyuk bir sikinti getirecektir.

Not: T?rkiye Orta asyadaki cumhuriyetlerle iliskilerinde cok hatalar yapmistir. Ya kendisini "buyuk abi" olarak gormustur, veya hep Avrupayi dusundugu icin cok ilgisiz kalmistir. Halbuki bir Partner ve kardes olarak gormesi gerekirdi, cunku turklerinde sizlerden ogrenecegi cok seyler vardi. En basta kendi kaybolan kisiliklerini tekrar bulabilirlerdi.
Birde Turkiye'de ne kadar ishe yaramayan, firsatci, yankesici, yanlis adam varsa Ozbekistan gibi ulkeleri soymaya gitmislerdi. Ben ilk kez Ozbekistana geldigimde kendi ulkemden gelen turklerden utandim. Bunlar yuzkarasi insanlar!
Ama gercek Turkiye bu degil. Gercek Turkler daha yeni yeni kesfetmeye basliyorlar.
Umarim ileride daha farkli bir anlayis icinde bu kardes halklarin tekrar birbirlerine bulabilmeleridir.
Saygilarimla

Do you really think that the way for cooperation and brotherhood passes through having common language, common alphabete, common mass-media(why not). Why can't arabs unite then?
I would not say that the cooperation and integration should be based on such basis ( such integration wll be short-time), better to have some others grounds to unite( economy for example) which bring together for long time. Is not it interesting why in EU there is no any proposal to have common language or common alphabete?

[kichkin]

In the last posting forgot to put username

[bagdad]

"ch" - o'zbek lotin alifbosidagi qaysi harflardan tashkil topgan?

Bu savolni bittasi o'zbek filologlariga beribdi. "c" harfi, tabiiy-ki, o'zbek lotin alifbosida yo'q. Shunda, kichik yoshdagi bolalarga "ch" tovushi qanday tushuntiladi degan boshqa savol berilibdi...

Fikringiz qanday?[

Clever question like how to write/read "Ishoq" ( is'hoq). however, these are small irelevant pecularities...
I'd like to draw your attention that in explainig the grafemas like ch, sh there is no necessity to stress which letters are forming them. In the process of primary education the stress can be done on something other than just drawing kid's attention on formation of the letter by the help of other letters-sounds( because the sum of sounds s(amarkand) and h(orazm) will never form - sh(amol) . And namely this -the perception of ch, sh as indivisible unique grafema-letters will allow to read children or sharp as it is in English. or in German something equivalent.

The problem with Ishak is one of those few, which kid encounters later in upper classes and it is matter of learning and memorizing. As it is with school and pschycology, where sounds are pronounced as in Greek but not as in English. French is full of exceptions but none of them are thinking to modify language as relative Spaniards or Italians do.

[CrazyDT]

here is some links to some resources

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/uzbek.htm

http://www.oxuscom.com/orthography.htm