Christianity ? No Thanks !

Christianity ? No Thanks !

By John Kirch

Why? Doesn’t everyone want salvation? Why not accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior? Because that is not what Jesus told us to do. When a scribe asked him, which commandment was the most important of all, Jesus answered as a Jew with the first thing a Jew utters as his declaration of faith:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord: (Mark 12:29)

For Christians, this commandment is impossible to follow. Why? Because, firstly, they have this thing with the trinity which was completely unknown to Christ the Messiah, and secondly, because they don’t understand that they were not meant for his message, hence the “Hear, O Israel”, as opposed to Hear O World. This is furthermore emphasized in Matthew: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (15:24) Jesus also instructed his disciples to not preach to anyone but Jews:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 10:5-6)

Only Begotten Son?
Hardly! In the Book of Psalms, God allegedly says to David:

I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. (Psalms 2:7)

Where in the Bible does Jesus tell us to pray to him?

In the New Testament one reads:

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Luke 4:8)

Surely, Jesus would have said, “Thou shalt worship Me,” if that is what he really meant.

Where in the New Testament does he tell us to celebrate Christmas? Where does it say we should follow the teaching of our pastors in place of his teachings? When Jesus returns, who will he recognize as his allies? The Pope? Jimmy Swaggart? Joyce Meyer? Will he be happy with the Mormons or the Jehovah’s Witnesses? What about the Episcopalians? Who is going to be on the right path in his eyes?

We have the gospel according Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but where is the Gospel according to Jesus? We’ve got Paul’s take on things where he goes against Jesus’ proclamation: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17) So, nowadays most Christians find nothing amiss with eating pork because they follow Paul instead of Jesus.

All&h warns the Believers in His book, the Qur’&n, about the desires of the Christians and Jews to persuade the Muslims to veer off the Straight Path:

Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad) till you follow their religion. Say: “Verily, the Guidance of All&h (i.e. Isl&mic Monotheism) that is the (only) Guidance.” And if you (O Muhammad) were to follow their (Jews and Christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur’&n), then you would have against All&h neither any Wal& (protector or guardian) nor any helper. (The Qur’&n 2:120)

Prophet Muhammad(P) and the Finality of Prophethood

“And the Lord said unto me, they have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” (Deuteronomy 18:17-18)

A Prophet From Among the Brethren of the Israelites

According to the Hebrew Dictionary of the Bible, Brethren is the: “Personification of a group of tribes who were regarded as near kinsmen of the Israelites.” Jesus himself was an Israelite, therefore he was not of the “brethren” of the Israelites.
A Prophet like Moses

Moses
Muhammad
Jesus

Birth
Natural
Natural
Miraculous

Family Life
Married w/ Children
Married w/ Children
No marriage, no children

Death
Natural
Natural
Unusual

Career
Prophet and Statesman
Prophet and Statesman
Prophet only

Forced Emigration
To Median
To Medina
n/a

Encounters
with
Enemies
Hot pursuit
Hot pursuit w/ battles
n/a

Revelations
written down
in his lifetime
Torah
Al Qur’&n
n/a

Nature of
Revelations
Legal and Spiritual
Legal and Spiritual
Spiritual only



I will put my words in his mouth.

He (Muhammad) does not speak of his own desire, it is no less than a revelation sent down to him. (The Qur’&n 53:3-4)
Isl&m, the only religion God will accept

And it shall come to pass, that whoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:19)

And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl&m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (The Qur’&n 3:85)
Muslims believe there will be no more prophets after Prophet Muhammad.

What do I have to do to become a Muslim?

Just believe in your heart “There is no deity but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of God.” [1]

Narrated `Ubada: The Prophet(P) said, “If anyone testifies that None has the right to be worshipped but All&h Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His Slave and His Apostle, and that Jesus is All&h’s Slave and His Apostle and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true, and Hell is true, All&h will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he had done even if those deeds were few.” (Junada, the sub-narrator said, “`Ubada added, ‘Such a person can enter Paradise through any of its eight gates he likes.’”) (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 644)

But you Muslims treat your women so badly!

First of all, let us place into perspective the theological viewpoint of Judaism. Israeli author, Naomi Ragen, states in her article, “Wifebeating and the Halacha – Time for a Change” many Halachic authorities have not only done nothing to punish wifebeaters, but have actually condoned wifebeating, spelling out conditions in which it is not only permissible, but a mitzvah.

Christianity has long been known to view the role of women as being subservient to men. One need only look at the scriptures:

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3:16)

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. (1 Corinthians 11:5)

In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. (1 Timothy 2:9-10)

In Isl&m, God tells us to be kind to our women:

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and All&h brings through it a great deal of good. (The Qur’&n 4:19)

And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever, they indeed are the F&siq&n (liars, rebellious, disobedient to All&h). (The Qur’&n 24:4)

All&h’s Apostle(P) said, “Whenever I stand for prayer, I want to prolong it but on hearing the cries of a child, I would shorten it as I dislike to put its mother in trouble.” (al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 12, Number 827)

The bottom line is, Westerners believe they are open-minded, but in fact, their minds are closed to anything beyond their own culture or race. If they were born in India, they would be cow-worshippers. The only reason a Christian is a Christian is because their parents (or close friends and/or relatives) told them about Jesus when they were children. There is less textual evidence to support Christianity and its current practices than exists to support Isl&m. To choose Christianity over Isl&m defies all logic. If one approaches theology with an open mind and sound reasoning, it is impossible to walk away as a Christian. Isl&m is the only choice for those seeking to worship their Creator in the way He has commanded us to do so.

To accept that the Ever-Living God died,this is nonsense. To accept that the Creator became His creation is nonsense. Though the Christian will, in a minute, grab you and say, “Well, can’t All&h do everything?” Well, yes. All&h says He is able to do all things. So you have to say “yes.” “Well, OK. So, why couldn’t He become a man? Why couldn’t He have a son?”

The point is, when we say All&h can do anything, we’re talking about anything which is consistent with Him being All&h, not anything which will make him less than All&h. No, we don’t include those in the realm of possibilities.

So, it becomes a nonsensical question to ask, “Can the Ever-Living die?” No. Once you said “ever-living” it means “cannot die,” “never dies.” So, to ask, “Can the Ever-Living die?” is a nonsensical question. Similarly, “Can the Creator become his creation?” is nonsensical, because, if the Creator became the creation, then He is in need of a creator. He is no longer Creator. It is nonsensical.

And they say, “Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided.” Say, “Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Ibr&him (Abraham), Hanifa [Isl&mic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but All&h (Alone)], and he was not of Al-Mushrik&n (those who worshipped others along with All&h).” (The Qur’&n 2:135)

And whoever seeks a religion other than Isl&m, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers. (The Qur’&n 3:85)

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of All&h aught but the truth. The Messiah `Îs& (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of All&h and His Word, (“Be!” - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (R&h) created by Him; so believe in All&h and His Messengers. Say not: “Three (trinity)!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For All&h is (the only) One Il&h (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And All&h is All*-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (The Qur’&n 4:171)

He (All&h) has ordained for you the same religion (Isl&m) which He ordained for N&h (Noah), and that which We have inspired in you (O Muhammad), and that which We ordained for Ibrah&m (Abraham), M&s& (Moses) and `Îs& (Jesus) saying you should establish religion (i.e. to do what it orders you to do practically), and make no divisions in it (religion) (i.e. various sects in religion). Intolerable for the Mushrik&n [polytheists, pagans, idolaters, etc.], is that to which you (O Muhammad) call them. All&h chooses for Himself whom He wills, and guides unto Himself who turns to Him in repentance and in obedience. (The Qur’&n 42:13)

[ElNemo]

hmmm... wat is this?

[Ahmet]

Dear muslim brothers and sisters,

I don't know who is this thread from but I wouldn't have written such a message leading to disputes and hate betwean religions.

selamunaleykum
Ahmet:(

[ДЖИГИТ]

Dear muslim brothers and sisters,

I don't know who is this thread from but I wouldn't have written such a message leading to disputes and hate betwean religions.

selamunaleykum
Ahmet:(

Telling the truth is not hate generator, what really generates hate is intolorence of the peaceful dispute. I am for that peaceful debate between "religions"!

[Ahmet]

Telling the truth is not hate generator, what really generates hate is intolorence of the peaceful dispute. I am for that peaceful debate between "religions"!
Selamunaleykum brother,

Telling the truth is really not a hate generator but I am NOT for that "provocative way"


Ahmet

[Duke]

Oh come on. John Kirsh is completely right. He is right that Christianity is full of what we call "inaccuracies" and "contradictions", but so is Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrism (happy holoday guys), Bahaism, and teachings of Scientology.... But each religion has a thing about being the "right one" and extremists in each camp start defending their turf to a degree where common sense no longer applies.
Bottom line, if a person believes in some higher power, let them; as long as that person does not impose their beliefs on you, your children your wives, your sisters etc, and tell you how to act as a society - thats where the line is crossed.

[kipchak]

Статься очень логична по сути, я с ней согласен по всем пунктам.

DUke - there are no inaccuracies in Islam, maybe there are in islamic sects, but they are not of Islam as sunni! So be careful my friend.
Also, according to your logic - any religion is okay as long as it is not imposed to one's close ones, well, if religion is an ideology based on the belief = howcome people let other ideologies like democracy be imposed on the whole nations?... another nonsencial question?..

[AbuMuslim]

http://www.islam.uz/images/picb6.jpg
http://www.islam.uz/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=249&Itemid=69

[Edith]

The bottom line is, Westerners believe they are open-minded, but in fact, their minds are closed to anything beyond their own culture or race. If they were born in India, they would be cow-worshippers. The only reason a Christian is a Christian is because their parents (or close friends and/or relatives) told them about Jesus when they were children.

Who told u that :)))?

[ДЖИГИТ]

We believe in one only God, Father Almighty, Creator of things visible and invisible; and in the Lord Jesus Christ, for he is the Word of God, God of God, Light of Light, life of life,his only Son, the first-born of all creatures, begotten of the Father before all time, by whom also everything was created, who became flesh for our redemption, who lived and suffered amongst men, rose again the third day, returned to the Father, and will come again one day in his glory to judge the quick and the dead. We believe also in the Holy Ghost We believe that each of these three is and subsists; the Father truly as Father, the Son truly as Son, the Holy Ghost truly as Holy Ghost; as our Lord also said, when he sent his disciples to preach: Go and teach all nations, and baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-10.htm#TopOfPage



This is a passge from Eccumenical Councils of Church, which formed christian ideology, there were 7 councils in total, first held in 325 and last 787 A.D.

But look at the passge of the first council, especially at the highlighted in red lines. The meaning that anyone with a common sense can derive from this passage is clearly not what many christians think. The words his only Son refer to Jesus, the word his means here God's and son is Jesus.
It defenitely doesn't say or mean that Jesus is son of God Jesus or that Jesus is one entity as God, his only Son defenitely indicates to absolute difference of God and Jesus. Same meaning is in the words: begotten of the Father before all time- this passage doesn't say begotten son (Jesus) of Jesus God.

We believe that each of these is and subsists - which means that christian theologians of the first council formed a belief that three- God Father, God Son and God Spirit are three separate entities and exist seperate from each other, if they were not separate according to this belief, then there would be no need for separate calling of Father, Son and holy spirit.

With this belief in mind, they also claim that Son (Jesus) and God Almighty are one? That Jesus is creator of Universe?


Here's how false christian doctrine was formed:


Copyright © By Dr. Adel Elsaie, Book Title: "History of Truth, The Truth about God and Religions"

6.9 The Ecumenical Councils of Church

The word Ecumenical means the whole Catholic Church. The arguments of Fathers of the Church lead to confusing the average Christians about the relationship of the Father with the Son. A fierce theological passion occurred in the Churches of Egypt, Syria and Asia Minor. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa complained that he could not obtain a straight answer to a simple question "If you ask someone to give you change, he philosophizes about the begotten and the unbegotten. If you say to an attendant: Is my bath ready, he will tell you that the Son was made out of nothing." Buying bread from a bakery turns to a heated argument about whether or not the Father is greater than the Son. These kinds of Byzantine arguments were heating up everywhere and on all levels of intellect. Is the Son of the same substance as the Father, or is it a similar substance? Does Jesus have one or two natures? Is the Son co-eternal with God or not? What is the relation of Christ to God the father? In what sense can God be the father, son, and the holy spirit, and yet still be one? How can there be a God with true unity combined with true diversity? During that time, no one can possibly prove anything definitively one way or another. The whole Byzantine Empire transformed into scholarly theologians! It is interesting to note that in the present day Egypt, the expression Byzantine argument means a useless argument in which each opposing party could never prove their point of views!

At the middle of the third century, political crises, inflation, civil war, drastic trade recession, and barbarian invasions almost brought the collapse of the Roman Empire. In 284, the emperor Diocletian took power with the army’s support. For the first nineteen years of his reign, persecution of the Church was not supported and the Church prospered in numbers. But the infiltration of Christianity in high places was strong, mainly through the governor’s wives. Diocletian died in 306, and the army chose his son Constantine as his successor. Constantine’s mother may have had Christian sympathies.

The average Christian may not know that councils of senior pastors established the Christian doctrine. Those pastors were arguing about theological subjects that Jesus himself did not introduce. A prerequisite for the appointment of an official in the councils was to have "charisma" which means that he was filled with the Holy Ghost. So when councils with famous members met, the Holy Ghost was among them, omnipotent and active!
The assembly of the first seven Ecumenical Councils of the early Christian world would establish the standards of the doctrine and hierarchy of the new religion. Usually pastors that represented the opposition to the final agreement of the council were fired or transferred to smaller churches. It is worthwhile to pause and take a look at how the Councils came into being and what decisions were made by them - presumably for all eternity. It is also important to examine the political background that surrounded the decision making process that changed Christianity forever.

The First Council in Nicaea I - 325 (http://www.usislam.org/69ecum.htm#The First Council in Nicaea I - 325)
The Second Council in Constantinople I - 381 (http://www.usislam.org/69ecum.htm#The Second Council in Constantinople I - 381)
The Third Council in Ephesus - 431 (http://www.usislam.org/69ecum.htm#The Third Council in Ephesus - 431)
The Fourth Council in Chalcedon - 451 (http://www.usislam.org/69ecum.htm#The Fourth Council in Chalcedon - 451)
The Fifth Council in Constantinople II - 553 (http://www.usislam.org/69ecum.htm#The Fifth Council in Constantinople II - 553)
The Sixth Council of Constantinople III - 680-81 (http://www.usislam.org/69ecum.htm#The Sixth Council of Constantinople III - 680-81)
The Seventh Council of Nicaea II - 787 (http://www.usislam.org/69ecum.htm#The Seventh Council of Nicaea II - 787)

[Lady_Di]

The problem is that Christians believe in their religions with blindness,
They don't admit any confusion, mistakes in the New Testament; they don't want to know anything about other religions, they don’t even listen to opinions.
They think they all are right, and others are wrong.
I don't want to provoke any disputes, and I respect Christians as individuals, I only want to say, that everyone not only Christians but also Muslims should question their religion. They need make a research. I mean, how many of you are Muslims? Because you were born in Muslim family?
I was like that for a long time. Than I asked myself, why I'm Muslim?
After a lot of doubts, questions and very few amounts of answers I'm pretty sure that there is God, and he wants us to convert to Islam.
And there is nothing wrong with posting such posts like: Christianity? No thanks
People just be open minded. Don’t attack him; because he wrote something which is opposite of what you believe so many years.
Peace to Everyone!

[Abu Hurayra]

The problem is that Christians believe in their religions with blindness,
They don't admit any confusion, mistakes in the New Testament; they don't want to know anything about other religions, they don’t even listen to opinions.
They think they all are right, and others are wrong.
I don't want to provoke any disputes, and I respect Christians as individuals, I only want to say, that everyone not only Christians but also Muslims should question their religion. They need make a research. I mean, how many of you are Muslims? Because you were born in Muslim family?
I was like that for a long time. Than I asked myself, why I'm Muslim?
After a lot of doubts, questions and very few amounts of answers I'm pretty sure that there is God, and he wants us to convert to Islam.
And there is nothing wrong with posting such posts like: Christianity? No thanks
People just be open minded. Don’t attack him; because he wrote something which is opposite of what you believe so many years.
Peace to Everyone!
Lady Di,
Everyone in this world is born as Muslims (even those who have been born in Christian family or other parties). Later the society or their parents be the reason of those children to convern from Islam to other religions.
Thats why for the people who accepted Islam we say "Reverted"-came back to his original religion.
You said that Christians blindly follow their religion-u r right. Recently I came across with Eastern festival. Those German Christians even provided 1 lesson about this case,explaining in detailes about this "festival" about that rabbit which brings eggs.What is Interesting They said that this festival appeared 300 years ago. When we asked how many years since Chrianity exists -2000>years , than how come up?
They said our religion Developed.
It was just small example to how they blindly follow this kind of things...
You expressed wrong by saying god wants to convert me to Islam.
Allah have send many prophets in different periods of time for diffent type of people. In history in some times there were more than one prophets send by Allah at different parts of the world. Starting Adam as till Muhammad (including) there was a single religion-Islam-submission to Allah,to its orders, to pray only for Allah-The One.
But the nations of those prophets before Muhammad saw made many changes,false things in their religion after or at the life time of their prophets. The leadersof their religion misused the words ofAllah, later they changed. So nowadays you can find more than 100 types of BIBLE.
Once I asked from the Chtistian leader at the meeting- Which BIBLE do you believe?
He said we believe to all of them.
I asked Why you needed to edit BIBLE and make NEW TESTAMENT he said Christianity needed to be developed
How can a people decide to develop it,restructure it? Where is the authority. The Holy books can be only given people by angel Gabrail to Prophets and Prophets teach their Nation. In this case the authority of BIBLE has not more left. It was altered.
Than I said If you believe to all BIBLE in several verses of both Old and New testament its said about the final prophet Muhammad.
He could not answer, He started to talk abouit another matters...

Here I advice you to read about Muhammad saw in BIBLE (http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/index.htm). (the article based on Verses from Quran and verses from BIBLEs is by Professor David Benjamin Keldani (http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/bio_keldani.html): Former Roman Catholic Bishop of the Uniate Chaldean)

Let me correct you,We as muslims must learn the orders of Islam and implement them in our daily life. Islam Must not be only in the speech.
I see many guys from (come from Islamic families) who do not give importae to their religion-Islam. Because Islam calls to purity-Submission to Allah. They are afraid that by obeying Islamic rules they will have to forget about all those alchaholic drinks, discos, different before marriage (or after marriage) relations (sexual) with NON mahrams and etc..
but say I will do all those when I will be retired after my 60 s. Man how can you guarantee that you will wake up alive tomorrow???
what if you die while reading this post?
Yes we muslims have to learn and apply those orders of Islam in our life.

Our obligation is just to remind and tell the right way Islam. To accept or not is up to them. Thus our prophet saw said us:
"leave the Stupid" thats do not argue with him. Thus there are many verses(general meaning) telling that When they show Verses from Allah they Deny it, thus their hearts are locked....

Yahdikumullohu yusluhu Ba'lakum!
(Let Allah leads you towards Hidaya)

Assalamu Aleykum

duafully Mazlum

[Pinkie]

The problem is that Christians believe in their religions with blindness,
They don't admit any confusion, mistakes in the New Testament; they don't want to know anything about other religions, they don’t even listen to opinions.
They think they all are right, and others are wrong.
I don't want to provoke any disputes, and I respect Christians as individuals, I only want to say, that everyone not only Christians but also Muslims should question their religion. They need make a research. I mean, how many of you are Muslims? Because you were born in Muslim family?
I was like that for a long time. Than I asked myself, why I'm Muslim?
After a lot of doubts, questions and very few amounts of answers I'm pretty sure that there is God, and he wants us to convert to Islam.
And there is nothing wrong with posting such posts like: Christianity? No thanks
People just be open minded. Don’t attack him; because he wrote something which is opposite of what you believe so many years.
Peace to Everyone!
There are a number of Muslims who are born into Muslim families but they know very little about the essence of the Deen of Islam. They just think "I am a Muslim, because my family are Muslims and that's sufficient enough" or they have no interest at all. Who knows, maybe they never opened a Qu'ran in their life. I think this is why reverts (Mazlum already gave an explanation about this term) become better Muslims-not only in practicing the Deen of Islam, but actually taking time out to learn about it ;). Of course, people who have Muslim parents should also have a thirst to learn about Islam too. We should keep learning until the day we return to Allah (swt) :D.

:fiaman:

[Lady_Di]

Lady Di,

Than I said If you believe to all BIBLE in several verses of both Old and New testament its said about the final prophet Muhammad.
He could not answer, He started to talk abouit another matters...

Let me correct you,We as muslims must learn the orders of Islam and implement them in our daily life. Islam Must not be only in the speech.
duafully Mazlum

Many times I read that there is a verse in the bible about prophet Muhammed,
bUT i NEVER SAW IT, can you write exactly what verse what book says it.
ANd I didn't undertsand why you said let me correct you, I know that Islam is not talking but taking actions.
Anyways Thank you, I will try write later,
I really have to go.
Thanks for you posts,
I thought nobody realy is interested in religions in this forum:)
Peace.

[Frida]

Many times I read that there is a verse in the bible about prophet Muhammed,
bUT i NEVER SAW IT, can you write exactly what verse what book says it.
ANd I didn't undertsand why you said let me correct you, I know that Islam is not talking but taking actions.
Anyways Thank you, I will try write later,
I really have to go.
Thanks for you posts,
I thought nobody realy is interested in religions in this forum:)
Peace.
People are interested in religion, that is why there is a whole section which is called "Religion".

I agree with Ahmet's post above, this thread is not going to bring any peaceful duscussion. As the name of the topic is already negative, it is not difficult to follow up.

[JOUBERAR]

Lady Di,
Everyone in this world is born as Muslims (even those who have been born in Christian family or other parties). Later the society or their parents be the reason of those children to convern from Islam to other religions.
Thats why for the people who accepted Islam we say "Reverted"-came back to his original religion.
You said that Christians blindly follow their religion-u r right. Recently I came across with Eastern festival. Those German Christians even provided 1 lesson about this case,explaining in detailes about this "festival" about that rabbit which brings eggs.What is Interesting They said that this festival appeared 300 years ago. When we asked how many years since Chrianity exists -2000>years , than how come up?
They said our religion Developed.
It was just small example to how they blindly follow this kind of things...
You expressed wrong by saying god wants to convert me to Islam.
Allah have send many prophets in different periods of time for diffent type of people. In history in some times there were more than one prophets send by Allah at different parts of the world. Starting Adam as till Muhammad (including) there was a single religion-Islam-submission to Allah,to its orders, to pray only for Allah-The One.
But the nations of those prophets before Muhammad saw made many changes,false things in their religion after or at the life time of their prophets. The leadersof their religion misused the words ofAllah, later they changed. So nowadays you can find more than 100 types of BIBLE.
Once I asked from the Chtistian leader at the meeting- Which BIBLE do you believe?
He said we believe to all of them.
I asked Why you needed to edit BIBLE and make NEW TESTAMENT he said Christianity needed to be developed
How can a people decide to develop it,restructure it? Where is the authority. The Holy books can be only given people by angel Gabrail to Prophets and Prophets teach their Nation. In this case the authority of BIBLE has not more left. It was altered.
Than I said If you believe to all BIBLE in several verses of both Old and New testament its said about the final prophet Muhammad.
He could not answer, He started to talk abouit another matters...

Here I advice you to read about Muhammad saw in BIBLE (http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/index.htm). (the article based on Verses from Quran and verses from BIBLEs is by Professor David Benjamin Keldani (http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/bio_keldani.html): Former Roman Catholic Bishop of the Uniate Chaldean)

Let me correct you,We as muslims must learn the orders of Islam and implement them in our daily life. Islam Must not be only in the speech.
I see many guys from (come from Islamic families) who do not give importae to their religion-Islam. Because Islam calls to purity-Submission to Allah. They are afraid that by obeying Islamic rules they will have to forget about all those alchaholic drinks, discos, different before marriage (or after marriage) relations (sexual) with NON mahrams and etc..
but say I will do all those when I will be retired after my 60 s. Man how can you guarantee that you will wake up alive tomorrow???
what if you die while reading this post?
Yes we muslims have to learn and apply those orders of Islam in our life.

Our obligation is just to remind and tell the right way Islam. To accept or not is up to them. Thus our prophet saw said us:
"leave the Stupid" thats do not argue with him. Thus there are many verses(general meaning) telling that When they show Verses from Allah they Deny it, thus their hearts are locked....

Yahdikumullohu yusluhu Ba'lakum!
(Let Allah leads you towards Hidaya)

Assalamu Aleykum

duafully Mazlum

Y

Islam is one of the world.s fastest growing religions. About 1.2 billion
people are said to profess faith in it. Besides its numerical growth, Islam
also seems to be the only religion in the universe that openly challenges
Christianity.
Islam opposes the cardinal teachings of Christianity such as the
sonship of Christ, the fatherhood of God and the death of Jesus Christ.
Because of these opposing doctrinal views, the need to review Islam is
critical to those who hunger for truth. The teachings on the person of
Christ determine the genuineness or falsity of any religion. Without
Christ, all religions could be right. So from the outset, we are going to be
reviewing Islam, based on its teachings on Christ and other Biblical
doctrines. We must face the issues raised in this book squarely as they
have eternal consequences for our souls, be we Christian or Muslim.
Therefore, I adjure you, in the name of the Lord, to be open-hearted
and patient as you journey with me through the pages of this book. This
book wasn.t written for argument sake (we have had plenty of that in the
past without positive results), but rather to challenge you to eternal life.
If you are one of those who has closed his heart to the truth, then this
book will be of little or no help to you (You need special prayer for
deliverance). I strongly believe that polemical somersaults, however
logical they may seem, will avail nothing before the judgement throne
of God on the last day.
Truth can sometimes be exceedingly hot and bitter. If you find any
statement in this book to be offensive, be sure it is not intended to be.
For courtesy sake, throughout this book I use the Koranic translation
accepted by all Muslims (Yusuf Ali.s) and the recognized Hadiths.
Since it takes humility, open-mindedness and prayer to understand
the things of God, I advise you to pray genuinely . in whatever language
. that God should reveal to you the truth in this book, or the lies (if any),
and you can be certain of His help, if you pray to Him sincerely.

[JOUBERAR]

Lady Di,
Everyone in this world is born as Muslims (even those who have been born in Christian family or other parties). Later the society or their parents be the reason of those children to convern from Islam to other religions.
Thats why for the people who accepted Islam we say "Reverted"-came back to his original religion.
You said that Christians blindly follow their religion-u r right. Recently I came across with Eastern festival. Those German Christians even provided 1 lesson about this case,explaining in detailes about this "festival" about that rabbit which brings eggs.What is Interesting They said that this festival appeared 300 years ago. When we asked how many years since Chrianity exists -2000>years , than how come up?
They said our religion Developed.
It was just small example to how they blindly follow this kind of things...
You expressed wrong by saying god wants to convert me to Islam.
Allah have send many prophets in different periods of time for diffent type of people. In history in some times there were more than one prophets send by Allah at different parts of the world. Starting Adam as till Muhammad (including) there was a single religion-Islam-submission to Allah,to its orders, to pray only for Allah-The One.
But the nations of those prophets before Muhammad saw made many changes,false things in their religion after or at the life time of their prophets. The leadersof their religion misused the words ofAllah, later they changed. So nowadays you can find more than 100 types of BIBLE.
Once I asked from the Chtistian leader at the meeting- Which BIBLE do you believe?
He said we believe to all of them.
I asked Why you needed to edit BIBLE and make NEW TESTAMENT he said Christianity needed to be developed
How can a people decide to develop it,restructure it? Where is the authority. The Holy books can be only given people by angel Gabrail to Prophets and Prophets teach their Nation. In this case the authority of BIBLE has not more left. It was altered.
Than I said If you believe to all BIBLE in several verses of both Old and New testament its said about the final prophet Muhammad.
He could not answer, He started to talk abouit another matters...

Here I advice you to read about Muhammad saw in BIBLE (http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/index.htm). (the article based on Verses from Quran and verses from BIBLEs is by Professor David Benjamin Keldani (http://www.muhammad.net/biblelp/bio_keldani.html): Former Roman Catholic Bishop of the Uniate Chaldean)

Let me correct you,We as muslims must learn the orders of Islam and implement them in our daily life. Islam Must not be only in the speech.
I see many guys from (come from Islamic families) who do not give importae to their religion-Islam. Because Islam calls to purity-Submission to Allah. They are afraid that by obeying Islamic rules they will have to forget about all those alchaholic drinks, discos, different before marriage (or after marriage) relations (sexual) with NON mahrams and etc..
but say I will do all those when I will be retired after my 60 s. Man how can you guarantee that you will wake up alive tomorrow???
what if you die while reading this post?
Yes we muslims have to learn and apply those orders of Islam in our life.

Our obligation is just to remind and tell the right way Islam. To accept or not is up to them. Thus our prophet saw said us:
"leave the Stupid" thats do not argue with him. Thus there are many verses(general meaning) telling that When they show Verses from Allah they Deny it, thus their hearts are locked....

Yahdikumullohu yusluhu Ba'lakum!
(Let Allah leads you towards Hidaya)

Assalamu Aleykum

duafully Mazlum

WHAT HAPPENED THEN TO FIRST CENTURY MUSLIMS

[JOUBERAR]

CROSSING OVER


An Intellectual and Spiritual Journey from Islam to Christianity


By Nabeel Qureshi


". . . and the truth will set you free."

Dear Seeker,
I thank God Almighty for your devotion to the truth and your desire to lay aside personal comfort for His sake, for He is Truth. Your struggle to get closer to the truth—and thereby closer to God—will be rewarded due to your sincerity and purity of heart. It is for you that I write my testimony.
I myself have always been dedicated to finding the truth, and many extraordinary events have transpired which led me there. I am certain that the miraculous occurrences in my life have all been due to that pure dedication which is readily available to all of us, and not in any way due to skill or accomplishment of my own. Praise be to God, for I asked, and He gave. I sought, and He helped me find. I knocked on the door of truth, and He opened it for me.
My name is Nabeel. Born as a U.S. Citizen in California, I was raised by devout Muslim parents. My mother and father are immigrants from Pakistan and among the most dedicated Muslims I have ever known. My father was an officer in the U.S. Navy, and because of his career I have lived up and down the Atlantic Coast in the United States, as well as in the U.K.
My mother taught me Urdu and Arabic before I learned English at the age of four. By age five I had read the entire Qur’an in Arabic and had already memorized many chapters. From that time on, my life as a Muslim was used as a model for all the children in the local Islamic communities. Every morning, as soon as my eyes opened, I recited the prayer that was to be read upon waking, thanking Allah for saving me from the death of sleep and for giving me another day to live. I would then proceed to my morning recitation of the Qur’an, following this with the first of the five daily prayers (salaat). Interspersed were many smaller prayers, such as the prayer recited during ceremonial washing (wudhu), the prayers before reciting the Qur’an, the prayers before the morning salaat (fajr), and the prayers immediately after fajr. Then would come the prayers before eating and after eating. Then there were the prayers upon leaving the home and while walking to the bus stop. Soon afterwards I would find myself sitting in class, reciting prayers which ask Allah to give me knowledge and help me learn . . . etc. All of this by 7:30 a.m. But the prayers did not stop there; a devout Muslim’s day is full of the remembrance of God through traditional Islamic methods.
Suffice it to say, my youth was not lost in complacency and disillusionment with religion. I loved Islam with all my heart. The reason for this was not only that Islam was the religion of my parents (though this was surely a factor), but for two other reasons. First, as I had learned it, Islam was a very peaceful religion[1] that taught me to worship God Almighty, and because of this, my family’s devoted practice was not in vain: we were the happiest and most tightly-knit family that I (and many of my friends) had ever seen. Second, I had learned to defend Islam using reason and evidence. My parents taught me never to believe anything blindly, and as such they provided me with an apologetic stance on Islam (i.e. one that focuses on reason and evidence as a defense of the faith). Being naturally inquisitive, I greatly appreciated this approach to religion.
Islam was not just my religion, it was the whole structure of my life. Born into and raised in Islam, it was my heart’s blood. Laying the foundation for how a youth should live, Islam was the framework and the blueprint of my life. Edified by apologetics, I challenged its opponents and called everyone else to it. It was here, standing atop the minaret of Islamic life, that Christ called out to me.

Did Jesus claim to be God?
After being satisfied that the New Testament is trustworthy, I decided to take David to task on a different point. Nowhere, ever, did Christ claim that He was the literal Son of God, let alone God Himself. Christ, being the Messiah for Muslims as well as Christians, was a holy man. How dare the Christians ascribe such hubris to one of the greatest men of history, especially when He never claimed divinity in the Gospels themselves!
This discussion took more time than the first. David’s claim was that Christ did say that He was the Son of God, though He didn’t run around proclaiming it from the rooftops, as this would have gotten Him killed immediately. Here is some of the evidence David offered.
In the Old Testament, Isaiah prophesied that a child would be born who would be called "Mighty God" (Isaiah 9:6). But this isn’t the only Old Testament support for the deity of Christ. Jesus’s most common title for Himself was "Son of Man," which referred back to a prophecy in the book of Daniel:
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (vv. 7:14-15, NIV)

[Sahib]

THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW
The ninth verse of the ninth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew reads as follows: "And as Jesus was passing there he saw a man who was sitting at the customs place and whose name was Matthew; when he said to him, 'follow me and come after me', he stood up, followed him and went after him." Now, please pay close attention to this point: if Matthew himself wrote these statements, why did he use the name Matthew in the third person instead of speaking as Matthew himself? [If the author of this Gospel had been Matthew himself, he would have said, "As I was sitting at the customs place Isa 'alaihis-salam' passed by. When he saw me he told me to follow him, to walk behind him. So I stood up and followed him, walked behind him."]
In the Gospel of Matthew, every speech quoted from Isa 'alaihis-salam' is so long that it is impossible to say any one of them at one sitting, at one time. In fact, the advice and the directions that he gave to the apostles in the tenth chapter, his continuous words in the fifth, sixth and seventh chapters, his scolding of the Persians in the twenty-third chapter, his continuous exemplifications in the eighth chapter are absolutely not short enough to occur within one sitting. A proof of this is that these same speeches and exemplifications of his are divided into various sittings in the other Gospels. This means to say that the author of this Gospel is not Matthew, the customs officer, the faithful companion of Isa 'alaihis-salam'.
In the Gospel of Matthew, miracles (mujiza) of Isa 'alaihis-salam' such as his curing the poor people who were blind, leprous or paralyzed, his feeding large numbers of poor people, are mentioned at two different places each. The Gospels of Mark and Luke, on the other hand, mention each of these events at one place. Hence, the author of the Gospel attributed to Matthew probably consulted two sources when writing the book and saw the same event in both sources. Then, perhaps, thinking the two events were different, he wrote them as such in his book.
It is written in the fifth verse of the tenth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew that hadrat Isa commanded his messengers, i.e. the Apostles, not to go to [call] the pagans [to their religion] and not to enter the city of Samaria, Further ahead it is said that he cured a pagan captain's servant and cananite woman's daughter.
On the one hand, the sixth verse of the seventh chapter says, "Do not give sacred things to the dogs [pagans]. Do not throw your jewels to the swine"; and the nineteenth verse of the twenty-eight chapter, on the other hand, declares, "Go and make all peoples your pupils. Baptize them [each them your religion], in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
While the fifth verse of the tenth chapter commands, "Do not follow (other) peoples' ways. Do not enter any of the Samaritan cities", the fourteenth verse of the twenty-fourth chapter declares, "The Gospel shall be preached to all nations, and the end shall be salvation." [Such verses, like the ones before, are quite contradictory].
Countless contradictions and oppositions of this sort are repeated in this Gospel. These additions leave no doubt as to the fact that the Gospel of Matthew was interpolated. Some important episodes contained by the other Gospels do not exist in the Gospel of Matthew. For example, the episodes such as the selection of seventy pupils by Isa 'alaihis-salam', his ascension in the Mala-i-hawariyyun, his coming to Jerusalem twice for celebrating the Bayram (Holy Day), and LuAzar's resurrection from his grave do not exist in this Gospel. Therefore, it is doubtful that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle.
THE GOSPEL OF MARK
All historians agree that Mark was not one of the Apostles. Perhaps he was in interpreter to the Apostle Peter.
Papias states, "Mark was in interpreter to Peter. Mark wrote the words and acts of Isa 'alaihis-salam' as correctly as he could recollect them. But he did not write the words and acts of Isa 'alaihis-salam' in a regular order. For he had not heard them form Isa 'alaihis- salam', nor had he ever been with him. As I have said, Mark was only a friend of Peter's. In order to have a book containing his conversations with Peter and the words of Isa 'alaihis-salam', he related the events in a haphazard way, choosing the right time and the appropriate gathering for each event he was to tell about. For this reason, Mark should not be blamed for having written some parts of his book in a manner as if he had learned them from his master, Peter. For Mark did not consider it important to write what he had heard without forgetting or changing any parts."
The early Christian scholars wrote explanations to the Gospel of Mark daily. Iren, one of them, states: "After the deaths of Peter and Paul, Mark wrote what he had memorized before." Calman of Alexandria says: "As Peter was in Rome yet, Peter's pupils asked Mark to write his Gospel. He did so. Peter heard of the writing of the book. But he did not say whether he should write it or not." Eusebius, a historian, says: "Upon hearing of this, Peter was pleased about this effort of his pupils. He ordered that it be read in the church." Nevertheless, the Gospel of Mark appears to be an imitation of the Gospel of Matthew, rather than the epistles of Peter. Accordingly, the book that Papias says was written by Mark must be another one, other than the existing second Gospel. The seventeenth verse of the sixth chapter of the Gospel of Mark reads: "But Hirodes married Hirodia, the wife of his brother, Philippus. Therefore he had Yahya [9] arrested and shut him up in a dungeon. For Yahya had been saying it is not permissible to marry a brother's wife." This is completely wrong. For the name of Hirodia's husband is given clearly as Hirius, not as Philippus, in the fifth chapter of the eighteenth book of the history of Eusebius. This error exists in the Gospel of Matthew, too. In fact, the translators who wrote the Arabic version which was edited in 1821 [1237 hijri] and 1844 changed this verse by having excised the word 'Philippus' from the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, though it exists in the translations done in other years.
Again, the two statements in the twenty-fifth and twenty-sixth verses of the second chapter of the Gospel of Mark bear the following meaning: "Hadrat Isa said unto his pupils: Haven't you ever read about how Dawud (David) and those who were with him, when they were hungry and in need, entered the home of God and he and also those who were with him ate the sacred bread, which was not permissible for anyone except the rabbis to eat, in the days of the head of rabbis, Abiatar?" These statements are wrong, erroneous for two reasons:
Firstly, at that time hadrat Dawud was alone. No one was with him. Secondly, in those days the head of rabbis was not Abiatar, but perhaps his father, Ahimlik. [Members of the Congregation of Seventies that administer the Jews' affairs are called Rabbi. Their preachers are called Scribes.]
THE GOSPEL OF LUKE
It is a certain fact that Luke was not one of the Apostles. It is written in the beginning of the Gospel of Luke: "O thou the virtuous Theophilus; as those who were the deputies and servants of the Logos saw with their own eyes and narrated to us, many people attempted to arrange and write a chronology of the happenings that took place among us; so I have deemed it appropriate to scrutinize all the events from the beginning and write them to you just as they are in chronological order." [Luke, Chapter I, verses 1-4].
This paragraph has several denotations:First; Luke wrote this Gospel as many other people contemporary with him wrote Gospels. Second; Luke points out the fact that there is no Gospel written by the Apostles themselves. For he distinguishes the Gospel writers from those who have seen with their own eyes, with the expression "As it is narrated to us by the deputies of the Logos who have seen with their own eyes..."

[Sahib]

Third; Shelteil is the son of John, not the son of Niri, Matthew writes so, too. Again, the thirty-seventh verse of the third chapter of the Gospel of Luke reads, "Salih the son of Kanan the son of Arfahshad", which is wrong, too. For Salih is not the grandson of Arfahshad; which is wrong, too. For Salih is not the grandson of Arfahshad; he is his son. This fact is stated in the first chapter of the first history section and in the Genesis [in its tenth, eleventh and twelfth verses]. Also, the first and second verses at the beginning of the Gospel of Luke, "In those days a firman commanding a worldwide census was issued by the Kaiser, Augustus. This was the first census executed when Kirinius was the governor of Syria", are wrong. The Romans never dominated the whole world; how could they have issued a firman concerning a worldwide census? In fact, the Protestant priests, in order to dodge this question as usual, changed these statements in the version of the New Testament and wrote as "In those days a firman concerning the registering of the whole world was issued by the Kaiser Augustus." On the other hand, in the Turkish version issued by the British society in Paris in 1243 [A.D. 1827], this passage is written as "In those days it befell so that a firman concerning a census of the world was issued by the Kaiser Augustus. Even John went up to the city of Dawud called Bayt-i-Lahm with his fiance Maryam in order to be registered." Afterwards, when scrutinies on the passage about the census began, it was seen that neither the historians contemporary with Luke nor those a short while before him said anything concerning the census. As for Kirinius; he became the governor of Syria fifteen years after the birth of Isa 'alaihis-salam'; it is an obvious fact, therefore, that the census could not have taken place in his time, supposing after all the doubtful census did occur.
THE GOSPEL OF JOHN
As for the Gospel of John; as is known, till the emergence of the fourth Gospel which is attributed to John, the religion of Isa 'alaihis-salam' was based on the principle of unity, no different from the canonical laws of Musa 'alaihis-salam' in its fundamentals. For it is the Gospel of John that first mentioned the word 'trinity' and which misled the believers of Isa
'alaihis-salam' by inserting the doctrine of trinity (believing three Gods) into their belief. For this reason, it is extremely important to search into the facts about the Gospel of John. Various quotations from the books of early Christian men of religion about the Gospel of John have been given above. This book does not belong to John the son of Zebedee. It was written by an anonymous author after the second century. Contemporary European orientalist historians have proved this fact by various evidences.
First evidence: It is written as follows at the beginning of the Gospel of John: "Logos existed in the beginning, Logos was with God, and Logos was the God." These words are of the subtle matters of the knowledge of Word and do not exist in any of the other Gospels. If these words had been heard from Isa 'alaihis-salam', they would exist in the other Gospels, too. Hence, the author is not John the apostle but another person, who must have studied the Platonic philosophy of three hypostases in Roman and Alexandrian schools. As a matter of fact, this will be explicated below.
Second evidence: The writings about the adulteress, from the first verse to the eleventh in the eighth chapter of the Gospel of John, are repudiated by all Christian churches, who say that hose writings are not Biblical. This means to say that the author compiled a number of Gospels he came across, adding many other things he happened to find here and there; or someone after him added these verses. According to the first case, the author wrote a compilation without distinguishing between the true and the untrue. So the compilation he wrote consists of unacceptable things. According to the second case, it must be admitted that his Gospel was interpolated. In either case, it is of doubtful origin and does not deserve trust. Third evidence: Some examples, occurrences and miracles narrated in the other Gospels do not exist in this Gospel, which in its turn contains a number of things non-existent in the others. Episodes such as LuAzar's coming back to life, the water's changing into wine, his (Jesus) confiding his beloved disciple and his mother to each other, exist only in the Gospel of John and not in the others. Later on we shall give detailed information in this respect. Fourth evidence: Of the early Christians, neither Papias nor Justinien mentioned seeing this Gospel. Justinien, especially, who admitted that the author of the Gospel of John was not John himself, did not say anything about this Gospel.
Fifth evidence: The way of expression in the narration of the events complied in the other three Gospels in quite contrary to the style of discourse used in the Gospel of John. For example, in the other three Gospels Isa 'alaihis-salam', like a tutor who wants to train the people, disapproves the hypocritical behavior of the other three Gospels Isa 'alaihis-salam', like a tutor who wants to train the people, disapproves the hypocritical behavior of the Pharesees. He commands to purify the heart, to approach Allahu ta'ala, to love people, to form beautiful habits, and prohibits inclinations contrary to the Sharia of Musa 'alaihis-salam' (Mosaic laws). His teachings and advice to the people are quite clear, natural, and comprehensible to anyone. Although these three Gospels contradict one another in some of their narratives, they are apparently based on common sources in those that agree with one another. The Gospel of John, on the other hand, is quite dissimilar and uses an altogether different style both in its discourse and concerning the moral and habitual conduct of Isa 'alaihis-salam'. In this Gospel, hadrat Isa is represented as a person who has knowledge of Greek philosophy and whose elegant and eloquent language expresses his personal nobility rather than such values as the fear of Allahu ta'ala and beautiful morality. And the way of expression chosen is not the Messianic style common to the public but the lexical and syntactical dialect peculiar to Alexandrian schools. His statements, though thoroughly clear and plain in the other three Gospels, are ambiguous in this Gospel. It is full of well-organized iterations mostly with important double meanings and arranged in a singular way. The style used in John arouses one's feelings of denial and hatred instead of alluring one's heart. If this Gospel had appeared all of a sudden, recently, after having remained concealed somewhere, no one would believe it was written by one of the Apostles. Because it has been known for centuries, Christians cannot realize these oddities. Sixth evidence: More mistakes are noticed in this Gospel. For instance, the fifty-first verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of John reads as follows: "Indeed I tell you that from now on you shall see the heaven open up and the angels of God descend repeatedly unto mankind." In actual fact, these words of Isa alaihis-salam' took place after his baptism in the water of Eden and the descension of the Holy Spirit; after that no one saw the opening of the heaven or the descension of angels unto Isa 'alaihis-salam'. The thirteenth verse of the third chapter of this Gospel states, "No one has ascended to heaven. Only the mankind who descended from heaven, tat is, who is in heaven, has ascended there." This verse is wrong in several respects: First; the part interpreted with the phrase (that is) was added afterwards. Thus the verse was changed. For the beginning part of the verse purported that "No one other than who descended from heaven has ascended to heaven"; but the author of the Gospel or one of its editors inserted an explanatory phrase in order to point out that mankind, i.e. Isa 'alaihis-salam', is meant by this verse. Careful observation will show at once that this phrase is an addition. For when we separate the initial part of the verse from this explanatory phrase, its correct meaning, "No one other than the angels who descended from heaven has ascended to heaven", will become clear. On the other hand, if it is asserted that "It is mankind who descended from heaven", the fact that hadrat Isa did not descend from heaven but was conceived by hadrat Maryam (Mary) through the Holy Spirit [the Archangel Jabrail 'alaihis-salam'] will have been disavowed. Moreover, it will be necessary to reject that Isa 'alaihis-salam' was on earth and not in heaven as he said, "...who is in heaven...". Furthermore, it is impossible for Isa 'alaihis-salam' to have uttered both expressions, i.e. "who descended from heaven" and "who is in heaven", at the same moment.
Second; the initial part of the verse is wrong, too. For it is stated in the twenty-fourth verse of the fifth chapter of Genesis and in the twelfth verse of the second chapter of Kings IV that Ahnuh and Ilya 'alaihimus- salam' also ascended to heaven. There can be no doubt as to the fact that this verse has been interpolated.

[JOUBERAR]

THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW
The ninth verse of the ninth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew reads as follows: "And as Jesus was passing there he saw a man who was sitting at the customs place and whose name was Matthew; when he said to him, 'follow me and come after me', he stood up, followed him and went after him." Now, please pay close attention to this point: if Matthew himself wrote these statements, why did he use the name Matthew in the third person instead of speaking as Matthew himself? [If the author of this Gospel had been Matthew himself, he would have said, "As I was sitting at the customs place Isa 'alaihis-salam' passed by. When he saw me he told me to follow him, to walk behind him. So I stood up and followed him, walked behind him."]
In the Gospel of Matthew, every speech quoted from Isa 'alaihis-salam' is so long that it is impossible to say any one of them at one sitting, at one time. In fact, the advice and the directions that he gave to the apostles in the tenth chapter, his continuous words in the fifth, sixth and seventh chapters, his scolding of the Persians in the twenty-third chapter, his continuous exemplifications in the eighth chapter are absolutely not short enough to occur within one sitting. A proof of this is that these same speeches and exemplifications of his are divided into various sittings in the other Gospels. This means to say that the author of this Gospel is not Matthew, the customs officer, the faithful companion of Isa 'alaihis-salam'.
In the Gospel of Matthew, miracles (mujiza) of Isa 'alaihis-salam' such as his curing the poor people who were blind, leprous or paralyzed, his feeding large numbers of poor people, are mentioned at two different places each. The Gospels of Mark and Luke, on the other hand, mention each of these events at one place. Hence, the author of the Gospel attributed to Matthew probably consulted two sources when writing the book and saw the same event in both sources. Then, perhaps, thinking the two events were different, he wrote them as such in his book.
It is written in the fifth verse of the tenth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew that hadrat Isa commanded his messengers, i.e. the Apostles, not to go to [call] the pagans [to their religion] and not to enter the city of Samaria, Further ahead it is said that he cured a pagan captain's servant and cananite woman's daughter.
On the one hand, the sixth verse of the seventh chapter says, "Do not give sacred things to the dogs [pagans]. Do not throw your jewels to the swine"; and the nineteenth verse of the twenty-eight chapter, on the other hand, declares, "Go and make all peoples your pupils. Baptize them [each them your religion], in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."
While the fifth verse of the tenth chapter commands, "Do not follow (other) peoples' ways. Do not enter any of the Samaritan cities", the fourteenth verse of the twenty-fourth chapter declares, "The Gospel shall be preached to all nations, and the end shall be salvation." [Such verses, like the ones before, are quite contradictory].
Countless contradictions and oppositions of this sort are repeated in this Gospel. These additions leave no doubt as to the fact that the Gospel of Matthew was interpolated. Some important episodes contained by the other Gospels do not exist in the Gospel of Matthew. For example, the episodes such as the selection of seventy pupils by Isa 'alaihis-salam', his ascension in the Mala-i-hawariyyun, his coming to Jerusalem twice for celebrating the Bayram (Holy Day), and LuAzar's resurrection from his grave do not exist in this Gospel. Therefore, it is doubtful that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew the Apostle.
THE GOSPEL OF MARK
All historians agree that Mark was not one of the Apostles. Perhaps he was in interpreter to the Apostle Peter.
Papias states, "Mark was in interpreter to Peter. Mark wrote the words and acts of Isa 'alaihis-salam' as correctly as he could recollect them. But he did not write the words and acts of Isa 'alaihis-salam' in a regular order. For he had not heard them form Isa 'alaihis- salam', nor had he ever been with him. As I have said, Mark was only a friend of Peter's. In order to have a book containing his conversations with Peter and the words of Isa 'alaihis-salam', he related the events in a haphazard way, choosing the right time and the appropriate gathering for each event he was to tell about. For this reason, Mark should not be blamed for having written some parts of his book in a manner as if he had learned them from his master, Peter. For Mark did not consider it important to write what he had heard without forgetting or changing any parts."
The early Christian scholars wrote explanations to the Gospel of Mark daily. Iren, one of them, states: "After the deaths of Peter and Paul, Mark wrote what he had memorized before." Calman of Alexandria says: "As Peter was in Rome yet, Peter's pupils asked Mark to write his Gospel. He did so. Peter heard of the writing of the book. But he did not say whether he should write it or not." Eusebius, a historian, says: "Upon hearing of this, Peter was pleased about this effort of his pupils. He ordered that it be read in the church." Nevertheless, the Gospel of Mark appears to be an imitation of the Gospel of Matthew, rather than the epistles of Peter. Accordingly, the book that Papias says was written by Mark must be another one, other than the existing second Gospel. The seventeenth verse of the sixth chapter of the Gospel of Mark reads: "But Hirodes married Hirodia, the wife of his brother, Philippus. Therefore he had Yahya [9] arrested and shut him up in a dungeon. For Yahya had been saying it is not permissible to marry a brother's wife." This is completely wrong. For the name of Hirodia's husband is given clearly as Hirius, not as Philippus, in the fifth chapter of the eighteenth book of the history of Eusebius. This error exists in the Gospel of Matthew, too. In fact, the translators who wrote the Arabic version which was edited in 1821 [1237 hijri] and 1844 changed this verse by having excised the word 'Philippus' from the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, though it exists in the translations done in other years.
Again, the two statements in the twenty-fifth and twenty-sixth verses of the second chapter of the Gospel of Mark bear the following meaning: "Hadrat Isa said unto his pupils: Haven't you ever read about how Dawud (David) and those who were with him, when they were hungry and in need, entered the home of God and he and also those who were with him ate the sacred bread, which was not permissible for anyone except the rabbis to eat, in the days of the head of rabbis, Abiatar?" These statements are wrong, erroneous for two reasons:
Firstly, at that time hadrat Dawud was alone. No one was with him. Secondly, in those days the head of rabbis was not Abiatar, but perhaps his father, Ahimlik. [Members of the Congregation of Seventies that administer the Jews' affairs are called Rabbi. Their preachers are called Scribes.]
THE GOSPEL OF LUKE
It is a certain fact that Luke was not one of the Apostles. It is written in the beginning of the Gospel of Luke: "O thou the virtuous Theophilus; as those who were the deputies and servants of the Logos saw with their own eyes and narrated to us, many people attempted to arrange and write a chronology of the happenings that took place among us; so I have deemed it appropriate to scrutinize all the events from the beginning and write them to you just as they are in chronological order." [Luke, Chapter I, verses 1-4].
This paragraph has several denotations:First; Luke wrote this Gospel as many other people contemporary with him wrote Gospels. Second; Luke points out the fact that there is no Gospel written by the Apostles themselves. For he distinguishes the Gospel writers from those who have seen with their own eyes, with the expression "As it is narrated to us by the deputies of the Logos who have seen with their own eyes..."

YOU CAN NOT JUDGE TODAY WHAT HAPENED 2000 YEARS AGO

And as Jesus was passing there he saw a man who was sitting at the customs place and whose name was Matthew; when he said to him, 'follow me and come after me', he stood up, followed him and went after him." Now, please pay close attention to this point: if Matthew himself wrote these statements, why did he use the name Matthew in the third person instead of speaking as Matthew himself? [If the author of this Gospel had been Matthew himself, he would have said, "As I was sitting at the customs place Isa 'alaihis-salam' passed by. When he saw me he told me to follow him, to walk behind him. So I stood up and followed him, walked behind him."]

THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW DOES NOT MEAN HE IS AUTHOR HIS BOOK, SOME SCRIBE OF THAT DAY CAPTURE SOME OF THE EVENTS THAT HAPPENED DURING THE TIME OF JESUS OF HIS AS FOR TODAY THERE ARE MANY AUTHORS WHO WROTE A BOOK ABOUT OTHER PERSONS SO DON'T BE QUICK JUDGE, IT IS GOOD TO SEARCH FOR THE REAL THING.

[MUHLIS]

Christian missionarie and a rural poor somwhere in Somalia (or Kyrgyzstan or Uzbekistan as you wish):

CM: What about Christianity?
RP: No, thanks.
CM: What about Christianity and 100 bucks? :lool:

[MUHLIS]

The true "diaoluge" between Christians and Muslims is not possible.
I had Muslim clerics from Uzbekistan puking (yes throwing up literally) coming out of one of those so called "inter-faith dialogues."
Actually Christians are as hostile towards Jews are they are towards Muslims, but they tolerate Jews just because it is strictly ethnic religion and there aren't many ethnic Jews.