Treatment of women in Uzbekistan

[DilshodaMA]

Hi. Since the majority of the population of our motherland(aka Uzbekistan) are muslims the notion of women as inferior beings was and is present. Girls, have you ever felt that you were treated as inferiors? some inappropriate expression from some street guys you can do nothing about because they are always with the groupof other less manered people? or maybe.. friends...(like: Molchat', jensh'ina!or...)? or guys/boyfriends treating you as immature babies who are unable to understand many things?or did anyone ever tell you that your place should be in kitchen? anything?.... Many of the forumcev experienced life abroad... do you think women are treated better? Share your thoughts. Guys feel free to do that to? Thoughts? ideas? confessions... maybe?Thanks. I am really interested...

[trigger-happy]

Дильшода,

Слишком много примеров, чтобы их всех перечислять на этой теме. Но вот мой любимый пример: в УМЭДе профессор геополитики (сама женщина и, насколько я знаю, не мусульманка) унижала студенток факультета МО заявлениями типа, "Девушкам нечего делать на МО - вам надо учиться в кулинарном техникуме." При этом, у этих девушек были лучшие результаты тестов в группе по её же предмету. Дело было не так давно - в 1996-1997 годах. :rolleyes:

О том, что приходилось переносить женщинам в ташкентском общественном транспорте, умолчу - не буду травить душу женщинам, которые до сих пор живут там. :bug:

[DilshodaMA]

Thanks for answering... A little addition. Do you think we can do anything to change it? Any suggestions? Because when I was at home, I always(almost every single day of my life) used to feel some abuse towards women, and i used to fight, but.... it would not help and I got tired... If anyone knows effective way to change it, please tell me.... Thank you soo much.
Dilshoda

[Mona Lisa]

By and large we could say that women's postion is inferior in Uzb. There are systematic view/custom which says men are bread winners and women must be one step behind etc. For example female students going abroad far less than males. You can't say that they are less capeable of going abroad or lack knowledge. In fact they are as good as male students but there is a family pressure and again traditional view.
However in certain occasions women also do not know whether they treated equally or not. Since they do not actively participate in decision making to pursue their own interests. Without knowing they give up their right hence they don't know where their position should be.

To change we need very, very long time. Western world is still fighting against gender inequality. So for us long way to go..........
Basicly education and approprite measures supporting women's rights (not on the paper but in reality) could at least provide some insentive. However this is just my view
Me personally never felt that someone treated me differently just because of my gender. I usually try my best not to let that happens. :)

[PainKiller]

eto ne v Uzbkistane delo, eto mojno nablyudat' vo vseh vostochnih, islamskih stranah. ;)

[Крейсер]

К вашему сведению, в вашем любимом развитом западе, к женщинам нормально стали относиться только сравнительно недавно. см. историю, если вам это вообще преподавали.

это не оправдывает ничего, но поможет умерить Ваш пафос, Васелиса "Премудрая".

Ваша,
Баба Яга

____________

[DilshodaMA]

Me personally never felt that someone treated me differently just because of my gender. I usually try my best not to let that happens.
I guess you are verry lucky then. But I usually try my best too, study hard, and people who know me treat me well. However people who do not know me well, or do not know me at all (guys in the street) who believe in their 'natural superiority' they just happened to be born with, let themselves do unacceptable (at least for me) things. And I do agree with you, that education is the key, that is why i try so hard. But most women in our country, do not really care much about education, they care more about finding a good husband. And i don't agree with what they are doing, but can we blame them for that? throughout centuries from generations to generations since they were born, they were taught that they need to serve their husband, and that husband and children are the only things that should be important to them. I personally don't know.... More ideas? Thanks girls.... But I don't see any guys responding. Come on, we need your opinion....

[PainKiller]

вашему сведению, в вашем любимом развитом западе, к женщинам нормально стали относиться только сравнительно недавно. см. историю, если вам это вообще преподавали

HEHEHE.Nu raduyet samfakt chto nachali, a kogda je tam nachnut? mde. U nas nachnut kogda te uje konchat' wuahaaahahaa
:D
sarkazm neumesten, eto pravda

[Mona Lisa]

DilshodaMA,
You may say it is my luck. Usually it depends on individual him/herself how to take outsiders view/action towards them. You could feel sorry, hurt, discriminated or just ignore and do things in your own way.
But most women in our country, do not really care much about education, they care more about finding a good husband.
Indeed, because there is no other way. Let's assume you're educated then you naturally seek employment and want to pursue your own career. But there are so many obstackles ranging from family issues to getting a job. And I do not mean getting a job as a secretary or someone who makes tea at the office. Hence usually next best alternative is to get married.
throughout centuries from generations to generations since they were born, they were taught that they need to serve their husband, and that husband and children are the only things that should be important to them.
That is part of the Uzbek culture (so is around the world which takes a view that women are carers) and it is always been like that and going to be like that. You can't make radical changes to tradtions/customs it is impossible. However it is possible to modify to the view that carer is someone who has equal role in society.

[Desperado]

Kelinlar qo'zg'oloni bo'votti bo'tta? :)

Trigger happy, did u study in UWED IR during 96-97? I might know you...

[DilshodaMA]

Kreyser,
см. историю, если вам это вообще преподавали.
Predstav' sebe istoriyu nam prepodavali, ya znayu, chto na zapade stali eto delat' nedavno, no sam fakt, chto stali, govorit o mnogom. I think it is because women were trying to do something in order to to change their condition: discussed it, had different movements, signed declarations of sentiments, etc. And when it did not work, they kept trying, and now they have what they have. So, although it is deep in our culture, things do change, and now we live in 21 century, so i think it is time to think about a little change. but it is just my opinion, so I am looking for what otherss thin. Thanks guys, i reaaaly appreciate it.

[trigger-happy]

Do you think we can do anything to change it?
Yes, we can. When you are in a position to hire, do not discriminate on the gender basis. If a man and a woman are doing the same job equally well, pay them equally - it's only fair. Once the economic factor in gender inequality is removed, the rest will follow. Nothing liberates quite as much as ability to live your life without fear.

[trigger-happy]

Trigger happy, did u study in UWED IR during 96-97? I might know you...
Yes, I was there. But seeing as your profile says you are 6 years old, I seriously doubt we know each other. :D

[maverick]

Dear girls I read all your replies but could not find any example of lowering your par in our society. Can you give some certain examples how and when we treated you like inferiors?

[.]

Some women bully men. I was bullied all the time by my classmates (girls) back when I was at school. How do you explain that?

[SmIlIk]

Matematik is that you?

[trigger-happy]

Dear girls I read all your replies but could not find any example of lowering your par in our society. Can you give some certain examples how and when we treated you like inferiors?
Then you must have missed my post with a specific example of sexist verbal abuse. (It's the second post in this thread.) Also, I mentioned public transportation problems. Many times myself and my girlfriends have been touched inappropriately by strange men in buses. :oops: :shock: Whereas I know of no man or boy who has been touched in that way by a woman in public transport. If there is such a man, I'll take my words back, but I seriously doubt it. :D

[trigger-happy]

Some women bully men. I was bullied all the time by my classmates (girls) back when I was at school. How do you explain that?
Bullying belies an inferiority complex. Those girls probably had psychological problems. A happy, well-adjusted person does not need to humiliate another to feel good about him/herself.

I am sad that you had to go through bullying and hope that it didn't make you bitter or angry.

[nonconformist]

Слишком много примеров, чтобы их всех перечислять на этой теме. Но вот мой любимый пример: в УМЭДе профессор геополитики (сама женщина и, насколько я знаю, не мусульманка) унижала студенток факультета МО заявлениями типа, "Девушкам нечего делать на МО - вам надо учиться в кулинарном техникуме." При этом, у этих девушек были лучшие результаты тестов в группе по её же предмету. Дело было не так
As far as I know the topic or the context of topic is treating women as inferiors by men. But as you mentioned not we are treating you but you, women treating each other as inferiors. So why you blaming us?

Also, I mentioned public transportation problems. Many times myself and my girlfriends have been touched inappropriately by strange men in buses.
It means you and your friends are very beautiful. There is nothing to do with disparaging. Trust me we never touch ugly girls. Besides this once when I was walking in the street aimlessly I saw a bunch of girls of college age. When I approached them they started to say some freaky words. But I never ever thought that this might have any relation to sexual discrimination.

[PainKiller]

u were weak (sorry). if u allowed them to do that.

:?

[trigger-happy]

Слишком много примеров, чтобы их всех перечислять на этой теме. Но вот мой любимый пример: в УМЭДе профессор геополитики (сама женщина и, насколько я знаю, не мусульманка) унижала студенток факультета МО заявлениями типа, "Девушкам нечего делать на МО - вам надо учиться в кулинарном техникуме." При этом, у этих девушек были лучшие результаты тестов в группе по её же предмету. Дело было не так
As far as I know the topic or the context of topic is treating women as inferiors by men. But as you mentioned not we are treating you but you, women treating each other as inferiors. So why you blaming us?
Nonconformist, that was my whole point. If an educated, highly inteligent woman treated girls like that, what could be expected of an average man? ;)
Also, I mentioned public transportation problems. Many times myself and my girlfriends have been touched inappropriately by strange men in buses.
It means you and your friends are very beautiful. There is nothing to do with disparaging. Trust me we never touch ugly girls. Besides this once when I was walking in the street aimlessly I saw a bunch of girls of college age. When I approached them they started to say some freaky words. But I never ever thought that this might have any relation to sexual discrimination.
"Freaky words" I can deal with, unpleasant and rude as they are, but when I am physically assaulted I am not going to write it off as a compliment to my beauty! Next thing you know, you'll be saying that raping a beautiful girl is OK, cause she is good-looking.

Besides, for a Muslim woman (and many of my friends are) it's a sin to be touched by a man who is not her husband. So not only is that jerk in a bus being rude, he is also condemning my sweet, nice Muslim girlfriends to Hell. :twisted:

[nonconformist]

And who told you that I allowed them? In turn they heard some interesting information about themselves. But this is off topic. Sorry I would not argue about my personal relations with girls. Maybe somewhere but not here. If you have something to object me relating to topic I would be happy to read it.

[PainKiller]

u said this:
I was bullied all the time by my classmates

which shows that it used to happen for a long time. so if it did, that shows that u could not stop them from that, or liked it urself. if u liked it it shows that u were(are) a bit sick, if u didn't like it and tried to stop but could not, it shows that you were(are) weak.

sorry, ur message kinda shows that u could not protect urself.(i don't mean phisically, i mean just as a person, just morally)
:?

[nonconformist]

Nonconformist, that was my whole point. If an educated, highly inteligent woman treated girls like that, what could be expected of an average man?

That was my first question remember I asked you all give me certain examples.Next thing you know, you'll be saying that raping a beautiful girl is OK, cause she is good-looking.
Firstly, I did not say like this let's avoid extreme points, because in turn I could also say that when a girl is dressed defiant it means that she wants all men to rape her. But both of us know that this is nonscense.
Besides, for a Muslim woman (and many of my friends are) it's a sin to be touched by a man who is not her husband. So not only is that jerk in a bus being rude, he is also condemning my sweet, nice Muslim girlfriends to Hell.
Well, I would advise you panacea from all these problems "Hidjab" but I will not.

[nonconformist]

krootaya your last post shows that you can not distinct users. The only advise for you please read all posts carefully.

u said this:
Quote:
I was bullied all the time by my classmates

I will disappoint you but these are not my words. Sorry again.

[DilshodaMA]

It means you and your friends are very beautiful. There is nothing to do with disparaging.
wait, so men have the right to touch if a woman is pretty. I am sorry, but that is nonsense. If girls see a handsome guy, do they touch him. No, 1-because they respect him, 2- because they do not have the legal right (if one does that it is a sexual harassment), 3- their moral values do not let them do that.
It does not matter, if the girl is beautiful or ugly, because she is not your property, and you can not just touch her, unless she lets you.
About improper treatment:
1-necenzurniye viskazivaniya (ya dumayu, tebya bi unizilo, yesli kto-to tebe skazal--"oooh, klassnaya j*pa", ili yesh'yo chto pohuje.
2-kogda devushku macayut po mimo yeyo voli...
3- a kogda otvechayesh, inogda daje derut'sya.
I vse eto bilo so mnoy i so mnogimi moimi podrugami. Elementarniye veshi. Nu neujeli tak tyajelo prosto uvajat' jen'shinu, prosto potomu, chto ona toje chelovek. I neujto tak tyajelo prosto soblyudat' elementarniye pravila horoshego tona, bit' vospitannimi. Mi ved' mnogovogo ne prosim...

[G]

ДилшодаМА,

Что вы все прилипли к одной и той же теме ну мацают вас. Понимаю не нравится вам это. Мне тоже не понравилось бы. Но человек вам же предложил решение одевайте хиджаб или хотя бы одевайтесь менее вызывающе ведь сами провоцируете. Носите обтягивающие брюки, топики, краситесь и напудриваетесь как незнаю кто. И потом вас же попросили представить хоть какие нибудь аргументы. Вот например:
1. Унижали ли вас когда нибудь на политической почве
2. Экономической почве
3. Социальной почве.

А вы все мацают да мацают. А сколько раз вас мацали, раз, два, три, десять. Скоро исполнится вам 40 и перестанут вас мацать тогда будете сидеть и сожелеть о прошлом. Или что еще хуже откроете еще один топик. "Почему меня не мацают".

[nonconformist]

DilshodaMa
You quoted my post so in turn I thought it is my duty to reply you.

Dear DilshodaMa Allah swt. ordered for all women wear "hidjab". As I mentioned above it might be sollution for some of your problems. If you reckon that it is not for you and way of your life then submit all phisical assaults because simply you deserve them. In other words you treatening in the way that you deserved to be treatened.
If I say that all girls yelling like monkeys, chewing gums like cows and acting like a sluts in public transportation will it be applicable for all girls in Uzbekistan? The answer is NO! I observe this kind of attitude many and many times though. So every guy in Uzbekistan toudh you? Th answer is again NO! My point is, maybe we have to obviate unnecessary stereotypes?
Yet, no one of you girls gave me single argument on how in our society men lowering par of women?

[Darwesh]

DilshodaMA

Chelovecheskoe plemja pereroslo v formu gosudarstva imenno na pochve postojannix drjag, skandalov i unizhenij drug druga chto privodilo chasto k bolshim stichkam i vojnam.
Potom starejshini plemen nachali dumat: Kak bi regulirovat obshestvo?
I nachali vvodit porjadki i zakoni.

V Sweden esli kakoj nibud naxal tronet zhenshinu bez ee soglasija ili v avtobuse prizhmetsya to nakazivaetsya 6 mechajnim arestom ili v luchshem sluchae strafom 3mechachnogo razmera minimalnoj zarplati.
V prinjatii takix zakonov bolshoe rol sigrali zhenshini cherez svoi sojuzi i ob´edinenija. V pravjasjej social demokraticheskoj partii naprimer est Sojus zhenshin-social-demokratov, Sojuz molodezhi social demokratov i tak vo vsex partijax. Krome togo est Zhenskaya Dezhurnaya, kotoraya pomogaet postradavshim zhenshinam v vosstanovlenii ix prav i prosto pomoch i podderzhat. Bez ob´eedinenija usilij obshestva ne mozhet razvivatsya.

Za oskorblenie slovami takzhe est identichnie nakazanija.
A v Uzbekistane ni to chto zashita cheloveka a dazhe takix statej net v Ugolovnom Kodekse kak naprimer "Gruboe pristavanie k zhenshine v avtobuse" ili "Oskorblenie chesti i dostoinstvo zhenshini putem pristavanija" kotorie est v Sweden.

V Uzbekistane vse naoborot, sami menti izdevajutsya nad ljudmi, prosto banditi s pogonami.
Vse poshloe, gruboe i nespravedlivoe dolzhno bit nakazano.
Inache gosudarsto prevrashaetsja v snova v plemja a praviteli v shajku razbojnikov.

[skeid]

Living in a part of the world where we like to think that women and men are treated equally, I can see thet that it is not allways the truth.
We can clearly see that it is not enough to have the same rights, you must also have the same posibilities. The same possibilities to get an education, get a job and to be heard when having an opinion.
As Mona Lisa says, it takes a long time to changee this things, not only in Uzbekistan, but everywhere.

Mothers, teach your sons to show respect for the other gender, and give your daughters confidence to speak up.

It should be obvious to every educated, well behaving man that even if a woman bears little clothes, looks beautiful and looks in your eyes, if she says NO, the answer is NO and nothing else than NO.

[DilshodaMA]

Что вы все прилипли к одной и той же теме ну мацают вас. Понимаю не нравится вам это. Мне тоже не понравилось бы. Но человек вам же предложил решение одевайте хиджаб или хотя бы одевайтесь менее вызывающе ведь сами провоцируете. Носите обтягивающие брюки, топики, краситесь и напудриваетесь как незнаю кто. И потом вас же попросили представить хоть какие нибудь аргументы. Вот например:
1. Унижали ли вас когда нибудь на политической почве
2. Экономической почве
3. Социальной почве.

А вы все мацают да мацают. А сколько раз вас мацали, раз, два, три, десять. Скоро исполнится вам 40 и перестанут вас мацать тогда будете сидеть и сожелеть о прошлом. Или что еще хуже откроете еще один топик. "Почему меня не мацают".
1-what you said is really mean, and those are not eligible arguments.
2- you don't know me, and don't know what i wear and how I act and behave...ya ne odevayus' vizvayush'ye, i ochen' malo krashus'
3- I did not say that all men are the same. That is why I was asking for the opinion of guys, because i suppose that majority of people on the forum are well-behaved, educated young man,and that is why I thought that they would know how to improve the situation.
4-THe argument about women wearing hijab. It is woman's natural right to wear what she wants, and that is her freedom of choice, even if she chooses to walk around in the tops, that does not give the power to man to touch her. Becuase AGAIN She is not your property. she is an independent person who has the freedom of choice. And if she wants someone to touch her she will ask. there are other women whome men can touch, but they have to pay money for that.
Thank you.
Best wishes.

[trigger-happy]

She is not your property. she is an independent person who has the freedom of choice.
Dilshoda, I'm afraid this concept went directly over the heads of all the males who posted in this topic :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: . (Darwesh and Skeid excluded - respect to you guys).

I'm just glad I don't have to deal with all of that where I live now. :)

[Desperado]

She is not your property. she is an independent person who has the freedom of choice.


I'm just glad I don't have to deal with all of that where I live now. :)

r we talking about any girl or a wife here? if you are about an unmarried girl, u r right, but if u r about a wife, then i presume u should make some clarifications and explanations and probably changes to your above 'smart' statement. because married life is a bit complicated set of rights and obligations between husband and the wife. do not agree? i do not care :)

[trigger-happy]

Surely you are not saying that once a woman is married she is no longer an independent person with the freedom of choice, but rather a man's property? :P

[Desperado]

Surely you are not saying that once a woman is married she is no longer an independent person with the freedom of choice, but rather a man's property? :P

Definitely I am not saying that :)

[trigger-happy]

Then I didn't get the point of your previous post. What were you trying to say?

You see, in most democracies (and I am sure in Uzbekistan too) a woman maintains all her legally guaranteed rights whether she is married or not. So I don't see the point of differentiating between the two in the context of this topic.

[Desperado]

Some (of our) girls, who 'honor' themselves being educated in the west seem to be lost the ground. despite it is desputable, i argue that western values are mostly based on 'hopeless liberalism' (where individualism reserves its vital role) and obsessive materialism. that causes moral corruption in society. Plz refer to 'Great Disruption' of F Fukuyama where he predicts the corrupted family values in the west between the sexes will cause the death of the western civilization.
My point is wife and the husband must be accountable to each other. and the wife must accept her husband as the head of the family and act in the circle of liberty her husband accepts and feels to be right.
no need to lecture me about 'liberalisation of women in semi-feudal countries' i have had enough of that from my lost feminist professors :)

[nonconformist]

DilshodaMA however you did not replied to me I think I have to continue argue with you. I skip first two because they are not addressed for me.
3- I did not say that all men are the same. That is why I was asking for the opinion of guys, because i suppose that majority of people on the forum are well-behaved, educated young man,and that is why I thought that they would know how to improve the situation.
Exactly about which situation you are talking about? With the same luck I could open a new topic "Why girls are acting like sluts in public transportation and how to improve this situation?" But this is nonsence there is no need to talk about particular cases these kind of men are everywhere and the same girls are as well. When I started to argue on this topic I thought there would be interesting discussion about role of women in politics in economics in social life so on so forth. But as I can observe you girls are lack of arguments and are able to refer only for some occasional situations in our society.
4-THe argument about women wearing hijab. It is woman's natural right to wear what she wants, and that is her freedom of choice, even if she chooses to walk around in the tops, that does not give the power to man to touch her. Becuase AGAIN She is not your property. she is an independent person who has the freedom of choice. And if she wants someone to touch her she will ask. there are other women whome men can touch, but they have to pay money for that.
Please refer to my previous post. I did not say that it is obligation for you do whatever you want whereever you want. But in turn you will be treatened as you deserved. Moreover in my village where I was grown never ever guy will touch or say something wrong for girls. Maybe it is because we are less civilized then you are who live in cities I don't know.

[trigger-happy]

you will be treatened as you deserved.
So a beautiful girl "deserves" to be assaulted. Thanks for proving my point on sub-par treatment of females by some Uzbek males.
Moreover in my village where I was grown never ever guy will touch or say something wrong for girls. Maybe it is because we are less civilized then you are who live in cities I don't know.
That doesn't jibe with your earlier statement, "We don't touch ugly girls". Notice not just any girls, but only ugly girls. Either one of your statements is not true. Doesn't matter which one, you've already shown inconsistency of your logic. Trust me, hijab doesn't save women from stupidity of others - just ask any Afghani woman.

[trigger-happy]

Some (of our) girls, who 'honor' themselves being educated in the west seem to be lost the ground. despite it is desputable, i argue that western values are mostly based on 'hopeless liberalism' (where individualism reserves its vital role) and obsessive materialism. that causes moral corruption in society. Plz refer to 'Great Disruption' of F Fukuyama where he predicts the corrupted family values in the west between the sexes will cause the death of the western civilization.
That's a pretty bold prediction, if you ask me.
My point is wife and the husband must be accountable to each other.
This I've got no problems with.
and the wife must accept her husband as the head of the family and act in the circle of liberty her husband accepts and feels to be right.
But this - do I have to explain why many women will find this objectionable? :rolleyes:
no need to lecture me about 'liberalisation of women in semi-feudal countries' i have had enough of that from my lost feminist professors :)
I don't know what their lectures contained, but apparently they went waaayyy over your head. :D

P.S. Isn't "circle of liberty" a contradiction in terms? :P

[nonconformist]

Trigger Happy

I am not talking about consistency of your logic. When previously you were distressing with your woman teacher attitude towards you super girls and making a conclusion how average man can humiliate you with only one example of your WOMAN teacher. Again without any reasonable facts.
I understood why still we can't move from one point and we stuck on how some freaks touch girls. Again here you deriving conclusion that all men are bustards (besides your husband maybe) and all women are victims.
You only can appeal to words and seek mistakes. I can imagine that your next step will be teach me english grammar and point me my mistakes.
Your example about Taliban regime is anahronism. AFAIK we are talking about phisical assaults. So according to your mega logic hidjab is not an obstacle for men to assult women. Shall I have to understand your example in this way or you changed the subject at last?

OK to change this stupid argue I will change the stream. I am sure that:
- Women have the same rights as men.
- Women participate in politics in the same level as men.
- They have all social rights.
If you think that some of my points are wrong please object me with facts not with assumptions.
-

[trigger-happy]

I am not talking about consistency of your logic. When previously you were distressing with your woman teacher attitude towards you super girls and making a conclusion how average man can humiliate you with only one example of your WOMAN teacher. Again without any reasonable facts.
It is obvious the irony of that example was lost on you. As well as the meaning of the word "irony", I suppose. Oh well. :rolleyes:
I understood why still we can't move from one point and we stuck on how some freaks touch girls.
Only becuase you won't admit that you are in the wrong when touching strange girls. Moreover, you think of yourself as a moral authority in the matter, making judgements on which girls DESERVE to be assaulted and which don't.
Again here you deriving conclusion that all men are bustards (besides your husband maybe) and all women are victims.
Huh? I guess I missed the part where I was "deriving conclusion that all men are bustards (besides my husband maybe) and all women are victims." Could you please kindly quote where I say something like that. Otherwise, stay off the weed - it clouds your judgement. :P
You only can appeal to words and seek mistakes. I can imagine that your next step will be teach me english grammar and point me my mistakes.
As opposed to a strong argument that gets to the root of the matter, like you just did, telling me what I can or cannot do and presuming to be a mind-reader or a clairvoyant of some sort.
Your example about Taliban regime is anahronism.
I guess you weren't reading papers or watching TV for the past few years, otherwise you'd have known that Taliban regime was in power until 2001!
AFAIK we are talking about phisical assaults. So according to your mega logic hidjab is not an obstacle for men to assult women. Shall I have to understand your example in this way or you changed the subject at last?
I've seen a tape of a woman draped in burka (which is a version of hijab) being shot in the head point blank at a football field in Kabul. I'd consider this an assault, wouldn't you?
OK to change this stupid argue I will change the stream.
There are no stupid arguments, only stupid people. :D
I am sure that:
- Women have the same rights as men.
- Women participate in politics in the same level as men.
- They have all social rights.
If you think that some of my points are wrong please object me with facts not with assumptions.
-
- What is the male/female ratio of Olii Majlis? Cabinet of Ministers? Constitutional Court?
- What is the difference in salary of men and women in same jobs?
- What is the preference of hiring managers where applicants' gender is concerned?
- What was the male/female ratio of UMID scholarship recepients?

And finally:
- How many men do you know that were physically touched by strange women against their will? ;)

[nonconformist]

A very long post I reckon the longest in this forum so far. But I made a little research and tried to answer for all your questions with counter arguments of course.-What is the male/female ratio of Olii Majlis? Cabinet of Ministers? Constitutional Court? Oliy majlis 9.4% vs. 90.6%
Cabinet of ministers as far as I know only one woman out of 33.
Constitutional Court I don’t know maybe 1 maybe 0

Additional information: 1995 1998
Industry 43.3 44.2
Agriculture and forestry 37.2 39.7
Trade, public catering, logistics, procurement 37.7 50.6
Housing and public utilities, everyday services 24.8 29.8
Health care, sports, social protection 75.2 74.9
Education, culture, science 62.0 61.6
Finance, crediting, insurance, pension provision 50.0 44.9
Managerial bodies 29.9 27.0

Since The author of the topic argued especially about Uzbekistan and some of our participants were comparing Uzbekistan with USA, I would add my counterarguments.

1. Traditionally, women participate much less than men in government and politics. However, the number of female deputies in parliament grew from 13 to 40 (of 250 deputies) from 1997 to 1998 through uncontested by-elections. Source:http://www.stelling.nl/insudok/eng/hr-uzb.htm

2. The most democratic country USA. Seats held by women 2002
U.S. Senate: 13 (13 percent)
U.S. House: 60 (13.8 percent)
State executives: 89 (27.7 percent)
State senates: 404 (20 percent)
State houses: 1,276 (24 percent)

3. The media labeled 1992 the "Year of the Woman." But a closer look at the elections shows that 1992 was little more than another "Year of the Man" -- no surprise to those who believe we need fairer voting systems to elect our leaders.
Take the U.S. Senate. Five women were elected to the U.S. Senate in 1992, by far the most in U.S. history. Only seven women serve in the Senate, leaving it 93% male (and only 1% are African-American or Latino). And although the percentage of women in the House of Representatives nearly doubled in 1992, it still is barely 10%. Source: http://www.fairvote.org/reports/1993/terrell2.html It is not stone age or even not 100 years ago.

4. The woman presidential candidate Heather Anne Harder. AFAIK she is running for presidency on these elections. But she couldn’t even collect 1% of vote. Where is your solidarity? Why women are not voting for women? But when after election there is no women they simply say that this is not fair and this is treatining them as inferiors.



- What is the difference in salary of men and women in same jobs? In private sector women earns 20-30% less than men. In budget organizations this must be equal. I don’t know the exact numbers. But in my work place (governmental organization) we used to receive the same amount of money if our qualifications were the same.
Counter arguments.
1. Both before and since independence, women have received generous benefits and maternity leave, but now this is problematic for their professional careers. Women have three years maternity leave with the assurance that they keep their jobs. Women receive 70% of their salaries for 18 months. However, this creates a challenge for them during their three year stay at home, as women lose their professional skills. We are becoming more competitive where professionalism is very important. Source: http://www.unescap.org/wid/Proceedings/uzbek.pdf

2. Again beloved USA Women with 20 to 24 years experience earned $100,037 per year from primary sources, while men made $98,500. Women with 25 to 29 years received $107,000, men $99,600. Source:http://www.ieeeusa.org/releases/2001/1228012pr.html
Shall men in the USA object this fact? Or is that mean that men rights are violated? Of course no.

3. Usually women works in less paid sector such as health care and education. There is nothing to do with sex. Simply our government could not create a good system.

- What is the preference of hiring managers where applicants' gender is concerned?
They prefer men to women

1. There are several justifications given to explain this stance. Firstly, employers give the “objective” reason that women are more expensive to the employer given the range of “privileges” such as maternity leave, shortened office day, paid vacation to attend to sick children, etc., guaranteed under the Labor Code. This calculation appears especially strong in the private sector. Public sector trade unions are on the whole still committed to a Soviet-style “protection” of female workers’ labor rights and “privileges.” Regardless of employers’ preferences, female workers will themselves withdraw from work if they cannot find adequate
child care arrangements. Secondly, according to current legislation and prohibitions in the Labor Code, women are excluded from 460 categories of work on the basis of health and safety. But everything they do is for the sake of child don’t they?


- What was the male/female ratio of UMID scholarship recipients? Well, I don’t know but what is the point?

And finally:
- How many men do you know that were physically touched by strange women against their
Nobody

[trigger-happy]

nonconformist,

This is all interesting info, but why introduce a comparison of Uzbekistan to the US? Shouldn't one country's support of women's rights stand on its own merit, rather than childishly arguing, "Look, they are doing it too!" Certainly, Uzbekistan is not THE worst country in that sense, but we are not that good either. If you use the US as an ideal to aspire to, let it be domestic violence legislation, Title IX (promotes women's sports in colleges), and not women/men pay parity (it's abismal, at 25-30% disparity) or representation of women in politics.

As to your answer to my last question, thank you for your honesty, but I hope you see why I consider your previous posts hypocritical. I wouldn't dream of telling a man who was assaulted or raped (by a woman or a man) that he shouldn't be so good-looking or wear such nice pants and shirts. Not only is that cruel, but it also shifts the blame from the perpetrator (be it a bus jerk or a rapist) to the victim and thus enables them to strike again. It just seems to show that Uzbek women have more respect for men than the other way around, which was the point of this entire thread. Thanks again for serving as the illustration of that point.

P.S. The point of my "UMID" question was this: if Uzbekistan's population is roughly 50/50 male/female (give or take a few points) why was the group of students that our government had rewarded as "talented youth" so overwhelmingly male? Do we really have so few talented young women?

[nonconformist]

trigger happy

This is all interesting info, but why introduce a comparison of Uzbekistan to the US? Shouldn't one country's support of women's rights stand on its own merit, rather than childishly arguing, "Look, they are doing it too!" Certainly, Uzbekistan is not THE worst country in that sense, but we are not that good either.

Firstly, The reason why I was comparing Uzbekistan with USA is that they are the most advanced country in the world and in almost everything we try to show them as an example not only we are but Russians, Chinese, Europeans. So I supposed it would be inevitable and that’s why I compared us with them little earlier. Besides, as I said this is research so I just c&p my research.
Secondly, there are not only counter arguments related to the USA. But anyway I will explain it in my next post.

If you use the US as an ideal to aspire to, let it be domestic violence legislation, Title IX (promotes women's sports in colleges), and not women/men pay parity (it's abysmal, at 25-30% disparity) or representation of women in politics.

Here I want to add some stupidity that I faced when I was in the USA. In intramural soccer we were told that in tournament among 8 players 4 must be women. When we objected they explained us that if would not add women it might be sexual discrimination. We did not get why they could not play separately. It was 3 years ago.

P.S. The point of my "UMID" question was this: if Uzbekistan's population is roughly 50/50 male/female (give or take a few points) why was the group of students that our government had rewarded as "talented youth" so overwhelmingly male? Do we really have so few talented young women?

We shall ask Umidies. I am not one of them. BTW you can see how many girls passed muskie or Accels to find out do we really have so few talented young women. Women and men ratio is 51/49 it is just remark.

[nonconformist]

No USA related arguments in this post, please if anyone going to argue on this post quote every part of it.

According to current legislation and prohibitions in the Labor Code, women are excluded from 460 categories of work on the basis of health and safety. But still many women alongside with men work in many hazardous sectors of economy such as industry, agriculture and others. For example many women (students, households) because of decree of government have to pick up cotton. In turn I would ban women to work in these conditions. But some sick feminists would blame me in violation of women rights. Of course sitting in warm offices, and not suffer from cold and hot temperatures they do not give a s**t the most important thing is they “struggle ” for women rights blindly pushing them in to hazardous activities. Do I care? In some points YES. I would not want my mother, sister, wife or daughter breaking their backs for some freaks in the government. However, government proclaimed cotton as a state monopoly, still there are thousands of people who is doing good business by selling cotton. Why I think that it is important to have this kind of legislature? Simply it will not give a right for local leaders to force women pick up cotton.

In the other hand women (especially feminists) can appeal that forcing women to work in dangerous conditions is means treat them as inferiors. But hence, women has equal rights they also must have the same obligations. That’s why excluding them from hazardous fields of work doesn’t mean discrimination it is simply means care of women and the future generation.

About the fact that women representation in certain sectors of economy is less than men representation. Yes in parliament and in government there are not so many women. But is that mean that we treat them as inferiors? No of course.
About other sectors: first of all as I mentioned above that women excluded from 460 categories. Second of all certainly besides specialists there are many other job duties, which help to maintain the organization. Such as drivers, electricians and many others. Many of these positions are held by men because apparently there is no woman who wants to work in these positions.

[Monik]

Interesting...
In Canada, they have a new legislation passed that eliminates pay inequity. For example, in Ontario, traditionally male and traditionally female professions were compared and their salaries were matched up to the same level in order to eliminate inequity in salaries.
Yes, it hurts private sector... I agree. Because it is costly for small businesses to keep up with those 'pay equity' laws.
Regarding that harassment in Uzbekistan. Even in the US I was told "She has a nice ass", so it's not just in those Muslim countries. It is all over the world. Basically, most Uzbeki guys lack that ethics and respect, as they were brought up like that in their families. Of course, when he hears how his Dad treats her wife. So, it depends on women, as well. We need to teach that to our sons about respect to women. Also, get education and speak up, gain power. Don't be grounded giving up to our traditional life.
I don't mean that women should be like men (masculine looking, behaving like a man, criticising for paying in restaurants), no, they should stay feminine, but they have to have the same rights and respect as men do.

[syed_shamsuddoha]

I like your postings. I left Uzbekistan in 1987. I miss it very much. I used to study in TashPI (Polytechnic Institute named after Beruni) located at Ulitsa Novoi. I am from Bangladesh. Lived over 10 years in the US and now a Canadian.

I travelled at least 28 countries, but never enjoyed life better than in Uzbekistan. People were so niave and so nice. Specially women would be treated inferior (like in Bangladesh/India etc.). I thought things got changed, but I am shocked to know that things didn't get changed yet.

[syed_shamsuddoha]

I like your postings. I left Uzbekistan in 1987. I miss it very much. I used to study in TashPI (Polytechnic Institute named after Beruni) located at Ulitsa Novoi. I am from Bangladesh. Lived over 10 years in the US and now a Canadian.

I travelled at least 28 countries, but never enjoyed life better than in Uzbekistan. People were so niave and so nice. Specially did not like the fact that women were treated inferior (like in Bangladesh/India etc.). I thought things got changed, but I am shocked to know that things didn't get changed yet.

[Monik]

Where in Canada are you? I'm in Peterborough, ON.

[Desperado]

Qizla, bizani ustimizadan chaqmachaqarlik qimela, yahshi emas! Qarela Bangladeshlik opamizam kulvotti. Shu masalani tinch yo'l bilan hal qila qolilu-a, etiyla biza nima qilishimiz kerey? (erkaklar nomidan) :P

[Mona Lisa]

Desperado, Qarela Bangladeshlik opamizam kulvotti.
Bu chaqmachaqarliklani o'quvrib yoqiridagi Bangladeshli okamiz ekanligini sezmay qolibsiz shekilli :)

[Desperado]

iya, uzr 'k'ni o'rniga 'p'ni yozvoripman :oops:

[nonconformist]

Apparently, My friend from Bangladesh has not been in his country for many years. Otherwise he would know that his country is ruled by women since 1991 Or maybe he just forgot. But anyways I will remind him. Haleda Zia: Prime minister from 20 Mar 1991 to 30 Mar 1996 and again from 10 Oct 2001 to currently. Sheikh Hasina Wajed: Prime minister from 23 Jun 1996 to 15 Jul 2001.
Perhaps, soon Bangladesh will become matriarchal country. BTW All my friends from Bangladesh used to call them b***** I don’t know why.

[syed_shamsuddoha]

Hello:

I live in Mississauga, ON. I work in Burlington, ON. Are you Uzbek?

[syed_shamsuddoha]

Uzbeksan ozgina ozgina bila man (bil me san!!!). Please write in English. I forgot all the words that I used to know 18 years back. I would like to know what you replied.

Thanks.

Cheers,

S

[syed_shamsuddoha]

Uzbeksan bil me san (ni ponimayo/don't understand) at that scale. Please, if possible, reply in English.

Thanks.

Cheers,

S

[syed_shamsuddoha]

Thanks. I have no idea why my people from Bangladesh would say so to their country heads. I guess because most of your Bangladeshi friends are well educated and they don't want uneducated Khaleda Zia (10th grader) or Hasina Zia (University graduate, but doesn't have a Ph. D. or was not top of the line during her tenure at the University of Dhaka) to rule them.

It's just my best guess only and is not intended for any other purpose.

Thanks.

Cheers,

S

[Silence]

Хммм...
Тема интересная, мыслей роится в голове премного, примеров масса.
Тяжко ли женщине в нашем обществе? Не тяжелей чем в каком либо другом так и зявляю смело. До недавнего времени не рискнула бы так высказаться все- таки считала, что знаю не так уж много в силу того, что давно постоянно в узбекском обществе не живу. А теперь имея на своем счету семейный статус, постоянную регистрацию по месту проживания в Ташкенте, многочисленные красочные перепалки на тему "Где место женщины в доме?" заявляю - никто не может быть унижен пока сам этому не начнет активно попустительствовать.
Козлов на улицах хватает и реагировала я на их шуточки всяческими методами, признаюсь доходило и до рукоприкладства (хотя человек я сложения достатчоно хилого). Самый эффективный способ полное игнорирование потенциального обидчика - потому как пустое место заметить никак нельзя. Да и не всегда ущербный виноват, многие девушки и впрямь не прочь отклинуться на ту иили иную фразу брошенную кем-то на улице - вот он бедняга несмышленный и привык. С таким вот убеждением по улицам и хожу, хотя муж все таки побаивается, что я когда нибудь все таки отдельного смельчака покалечу )
Насильно кого-то убеждать в жизненной необходимости просвещения не стоит и пытаться. Знаю кучу светлейших человечеков, для которых предел мечтаний испечь торт как на картинке и купить платье "ну то которое с блестками дорогущее" и они счастливы и самодостаточны. Общество без них погибнет. Сама признаюсь была в жутком восторге, когда недавно испекла в первый раз в жизни пирожки. Кстати могу сразу заявить - сидя дома женщина не обязательно деградирует (а может у меня все еще впереди). ;)
Мужу придеться и надо уступать, бесплатен в этой жизни лишь сыр в мышеловке, а за возможность иметь надежного человека рядом можно и расплатиться проглоченной вовремя внутрь себя желчью ) Да и он также поступает, когда нужно, просто обычно этого не видно )
И иногда (а может и довольно часто) нам и вправду лучше помолчать, если фраза "Молчи женщина" произнесена аккуратно и к месту )
По поводу животрепещущего вопроса о маньяках в транспорте - они были и будут всегда, независимо от того как обществе относятся к женщинам. Это всего лишь люди с больной психикой. Хотя может в сверхфеминистическом обществе их будут казнить через четвертование прилюдно...
Спасибо за внимание к моим как обычно сумбурным заметкам.
С уважением,
Silence.

[Крейсер]

TREATMENT of women in Uzbekistan.

just an insignificant side-point: whenever I see the title of this topic (look above), i can't help picturing a food-processing plant where women are being treated and put into jars or something. anyone on the same page? no?

treatment of... usually follows by some chemical substance or raw material. nevermind, it's just a thought.

[DilshodaMA]

Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts with me. I really appreciate that.
Best,
Dilshoda