Karabakh Problem Armanian Genocide In Karabakh [Archive] - Uzbekistan Online Forum

4twelve

10-12-2004, 08:25 AM

i WILL START SOFT NOT DIRECTLY ATTACKED ..LETS CHECK HOW...

"At the end of 1991, the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan escalated into war. Between 1992 and 1994 almost 20 percent
of the Azerbaijan's territory, including six districts of Azerbaijan in addition to Nagorno-Karabagh, were under Armenian
control, resulting in mass population displacement within the country. The State estimated the number of internally displaced
persons at 778,500 by the end of 1993, and 604,574 as of 1 March 1998. UNHCR estimates are lower, with 551,000 persons at the
end of 1997." (IOM 1999, p. 40)

"More than 568,000 persons from western regions of Azerbaijan under Armenian occupation since 1993, including 42,072 from
Nagorno-Karabakh, remained displaced within the country. Most were displaced from regions just outside Nagorno-Karabakh,
including Fizuli (133,725 persons), Agdam (128,584 persons), Lachin (63,007 persons), Kelbadjar (59,274), Jabrayil (58,834
persons), Gubadli (31, 276), Zangilan (34,797), Terter (5,171) and Adjabedi (3,358)." (USCR 2000)

"The more than 600,000 displaced Azerbaijanis constitute the largest group of IDPs in the Caucasus. The displaced include the
entire Azeri population of Nagorno-Karabakh and a wide area surrounding it. They comprise a broad range of professionals,
farmers, and workers and include men, women, and children of all ages. Because of the ethnic basis of displacement in
Azerbaijan, the IDPs there are virtually all Azeri (Turkic) peoples. Most of them are nominally Shia Muslim, but many of those
from Lachin and Kelbajar Provinces are Sunni Muslim Kurds." (Greene 1998, p. 254)

"The overwhelming majority, over 99 per cent, of the internally displaced population are ethnic Azeris. The remainder are some
4,000 Kurds from the Lachin and Kelbajar districts and several hundred persons of various other ethnic groups, mostly
Russian." (UN Commission for Human Rights 25 January 1999, para. 31)

Sources:

International Organization for Migration, 1999, Migration in the CIS 1997-1998, 1999 Edition

U.S. Committee for Refugees (USCR), 31 December 2000, World Refugee Survey 2000 (Washington D.C.): Country Report Azerbaijan
[Internet]

Greene, Thomas, 1998, The Forsaken People, "Internal Displacement in the North Caucasus, Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia"
(Washington D.C: The Brookings Institution)

United Nations Commission on Human Rights (CHR), 25 January 1999, Report of the Representative of the Secretary-General, Mr.
Francis M. Deng, Profiles in displacement: Azerbaijan (E/CN.4/1999/79/Add.1) [Internet]

Armenian armed formations occupied 20 percent [of] Azerbaijan territory. Besides the territory of former Nagorny-Karabakh Autonomous Region, lands of seven additional regions around Nagorny-Karabakh are also occupied.
More than one million inhabitans of Azerbaijan were violently expelled from lands now occupied in Nagorny-Karabakh and other regions".

Heydar Aliyev
Former President of Azerbaijan Republic

"The actions taken by the government of Armenia in the context of the conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh are inconsistent with the territorial integrity and national sovereignty principles of the Helsinki Final Act. Armenia supports Nagorno-Karabakh separatists in Azerbaijan both militarily and financially. Nagorno-Karabakh forces, assisted by units of the Armenian armed forces, currently occupy the Nagorno-Karabakh region and surrounding areas in Azerbaijan. This violation and the restoration of peace between Armenia and Azerbaijan have been taken up by the OSCE
William J. Clinton
President of the United States of America

Bilge_Kagan

10-16-2004, 03:18 PM

my english is very bad so i can't say anything about that subject but i just wanted to refresh the subject...:) so now...you say something :)

Mona Lisa

10-16-2004, 03:32 PM

Is this a counter thread against this one (http://www.forum.uz/showthread.php?t=13734)? :rolleyes:

kayrakan

10-17-2004, 04:19 AM

Some tidbits of reality;

IN THE 19th CENTURY IN THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE:
29 Armenians achieved the highest governmental rank of pasha,
22 Armenians became ministers, including Ministers of Foreign Affairs,
33 Armenians were elected to the Parliament,
7 Armenians were appointed as Ambassadors, 11 as Consul Generals,
11 Armenians served in universities as professors.

kayrakan

10-17-2004, 04:29 AM

Armenian propagandists claim that as many as 1, 5 to 2 million Armenians died as the result of "massacres". Like the rest of their claims, this also is imaginary, with the number claimed being increased over time. At first, immediately following the war the Armenians claimed that as many as 600,000 had been killed. Later they raised it to 800,000 and now they talk about 1,5 million and tomorrow they may talk even about three million. The 1918 edition of Encyclopedia Britannica said that 600,000 Armenians had been killed; in its 1968 edition this was raised to 1,5 million.

How many Armenians did die? It is impossible to determine the number exactly, since no complete death records of statistics were kept during those years. The only basis on which even an estimate can be made is the actual Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire at the time. Even here figures vary widely, with the Armenians claiming far more than other sources:

Claimed Armenian Population
The Armenian author Leart, based on figures Provided by the Patriarchate of Istanbul 2,560,000
The Armenian historian Basmajian 2,380,000
The Armenian National Committee at the Paris Peace conference 2,250,000
The Armenian historian Kevork Aslan 1,800,000
The French Yellow Book 1,555,000
Encyclopedia Britannica 1,500,000
Constenson I, 400,000
Lynch 1,345,000
0fficial Ottoman census statistics for 1914 1,295,000
Annual Register (London) 1,056,000

Leaving aside the Armenian figures, which are evidently exaggerated, the western estimates vary between 1,056,000 and 1,555,000 which more or less corresponds with the official Ottoman census report of 1,295,000. How, then, could 1,5 million Armenians have been massacred even had every Armenian in the Empire been killed, which of course did not happen?

Therefore, what are the real Armenian losses? Talat Pasha, in a report presented to the last congress of the Union and Progress Party, stated that this number was estimated at around 300.000. Monseigneur Touchet, a French clergyman, informed the congress of "Oeuevre d'Orient" in February 1916, that the number of dead is thought to be 500.000, but added that this figure might have been exaggerated. Toynbee estimates the number of the Armenian losses as 600.000. The same figure appears in the Encyclopedia Britannica's 1918 edition. Armenians had also claimed the same number before. Bogos Noubar, head of the Armenian delegation at the Paris Peace Conference, declared that after the war 280.000 Armenians were living in Turkey and 700.000 Armenians have emigrated to other countries. According to the estimation of Bogos Noubar, the total number of the Armenian population before the war was 1.300.000. Therefore, it can be concluded that the number of the Armenian losses was around 300.000. This figure reflects the same proportion, according to their total population, of the 3 million loss of Turkish lives during the same period. Once more, facts do not correspond with the Armenian claims.

shady_lady

10-17-2004, 07:58 AM

xm a v etoy voyne rossiya vinovata
vivezla vse orujie s Azerbaidjana a v armenii ostavila:D
nebulo b u nix orujiya onib i ne voevali;)
a voobshe armyane postoyanno na vsex prigaut to Turciya to Azerbaydjan:evil:
koroche rossiya toj vezde svoy nos suet i maslo v ogon' podlivaet:twisted:
a voobshe ya za azerbaydjan:D

shady_lady

10-17-2004, 08:15 AM

we znaete u nas daj knijka est' "Krovaviy yanvar' 1991"
tam takie kartinki strashnie
ujaaaas:shock:
tam opisano podrobno i ves'ma detal'no kak armyane nad Azerbaydjancami izdevalis'
koroche knijka poleznaya dlya chteniya:rolleyes:

4twelve

10-17-2004, 01:16 PM

JoJ

10-18-2004, 06:19 AM

xm a v etoy voyne rossiya vinovata
vivezla vse orujie s Azerbaidjana a v armenii ostavila:D
nebulo b u nix orujiya onib i ne voevali;)

Armenia netak bogat na natural resourse kak skajem, Azerbayjan or Georgia. Po etomu u nih ochen silniyi sviazi s Rossiyoy. Rossiya prinimayut Armeniyu kak samiy blizkoiy partner v Kavkaze, Armenia toje bez russkih nemojet jit, po etomu ne odna strana bivshego soyuza ne tak silno zavisit ot Rossi kak Armenia. Azerbaydjan, eto strana gde jivut musulmani, krome etogo azeri blije k turkam chem russkim. Takje u nih est neft, chem mojno neploho jit. Rossiya eto prekrasno ponimayet. Po etomu vo vsem podderjivaet armian.
Vo vremia voyni v Karabahe, Armenii nadeyelis na pomosh Rosskih, i vriadli oni bi dobilis k chemu nibud bez russkih.

shady_lady

10-18-2004, 10:03 AM

Armenia netak bogat na natural resourse kak skajem, Azerbayjan or Georgia. Po etomu u nih ochen silniyi sviazi s Rossiyoy. Rossiya prinimayut Armeniyu kak samiy blizkoiy partner v Kavkaze, Armenia toje bez russkih nemojet jit, po etomu ne odna strana bivshego soyuza ne tak silno zavisit ot Rossi kak Armenia. Azerbaydjan, eto strana gde jivut musulmani, krome etogo azeri blije k turkam chem russkim. Takje u nih est neft, chem mojno neploho jit. Rossiya eto prekrasno ponimayet. Po etomu vo vsem podderjivaet armian.
Vo vremia voyni v Karabahe, Armenii nadeyelis na pomosh Rosskih, i vriadli oni bi dobilis k chemu nibud bez russkih.
thanks JoJ ya o tom je:D

kayrakan

10-20-2004, 06:01 AM

The latest conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan started in February of 1988 and lasts already for more than a decade. In a short time this conflict was aggravated and turned a real war. Azerbaijani Republic plunged into the war when it still was a constituency of the Soviet Union and keeps struggling as an independent state now. From the viewpoint of International Law the conflict is the result of aggression of neighboring Armenian Republic, who made timely preparations for the war in military, political, economic, propagandist, ideological, psychological and other spheres. And the command for aggression was the actions of Armenian separatist groups in Karabakh, who declared separation of this region from Azerbaijan. The tasks of Armenian agressors in the conflict, carried out by force, are the following: alteration of existing borders, occupation and subsequent annexation of Karabakh and adjacent Azeri territories.
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The first clashes between Armenians and Azeris took place in February of 1988, when Armenian separatists demanded eviction of Azeris from just the very Azeri villages and when leaders of Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) attempted to separate this province from Azerbaijan and join Armenia. In a number of regions these clashes turned into large-scale civil disorders, resulting by death of many innocent Azeris. In late November of 1988 military detachments of Armenian Republic conducted the first in this conflict and the forth in the 20th century large-scale ethnic cleansing deporting over 200,000 Azeris (including women, children, the old) from the places of compact living of Azeris in Armenia.
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Incompetent actions of Moscow and the general crisis of USSR persuaded the leaders of separatist movement in NKAO and nationalistic organizations of Armenia in possibility and necessity to carry out the plan of forceful separation of Karabakh from Azerbaijan. And the ultimate goal was ousting the Azeri population from Karabakh, forming a new ethnic situation, and subsequent annexation of Karabakh by Armenia. Since 1988 all political activities of Armenia in all regional and international levels were aimed to realization of these goals. After Armenia actually escaped the control of Moscow, they managed to shift a number of industrial plants to production of primitive models of weapons. These arms and ammunition were secretly transferred to Karabakh; secret military formations of Armenian Republic tried to occupy other territories of Azerbaijan.
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The aggressive policy of Armenian Republic resulted by occupation of over 20% of Azerbaijani territory. 120,000 people perished, over 250,000 wounded, 4,000 POWs or missing without trace. Over 1,100,000 Azeris left their homes and became refugees. The material damage, made by Armenian forces, is estimated for $60 billions. During the aggression 10 towns (Khankendi, Shusha, Lachin, Kelbejar, Agdam, Fizuli, Gubadli, Zangilan, Jabrayil, Agdere), 876 villages, 113,000 houses, 191 hospitals, 693 schools, 700 public building, 160 bridges were destroyed; 5,446 children became orphans. 800 km of roads, 2,300 km of water pipelines was destroyed. Nevertheless this is the JUST WAR for Azerbaijan.

kayrakan

10-20-2004, 06:03 AM

KHOJALY TRAGEDY

Massacre of Khojaly

One of the most heinous crimes against the Azerbaijani people was the massacre of hundreds of defenseless inhabitants of the town of Khojaly, in the Nagorno Karabakh region of the Azerbaijan, which was taken by armenian troops on the night of February 25-26, 1992 in what was described by the Human Rights Watch as "the largest massacre to date in the conflict".

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_azerbaijan/khojaly1_TN.gif (http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_azerbaijan/khojaly1.jpg) Khojaly is an Azerbaijani town strategically located on the Agdam – Shusha and Hankendi (Stepanakert) – Askeran roads in Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan. The town' population was over 7,000 people.
The Armenian armed forces and mercenary units spared virtually none of those who had been unable to flee Khojaly and the surrounding area. In the words of the journalist Chingiz Mustafaev, among the dead were "... dozens upon dozens of children between 2 and 15 years old, women and old people, in most cases shot at point-blank range in the head. The position of the bodies indicated that the people had been killed in cold blood, calculatedly, without any sign of a struggle or of having tried to escape.

Some had been taken aside and shot separately; many had been killed as entire families at once. Some corpses http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_azerbaijan/khojaly2_TN.gif (http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_azerbaijan/khojaly2.jpg) displayed several wounds, one of which was invariably in the head, suggesting that the wounded were executed. Some children were found with severed ears; the skin had been cut from the left side of an elderly woman's face; and men had been scalped. There were corpses that had clearly been robbed. The first time we arrived at the scene of the shootings of February 28, accompanied by two military helicopters, we saw from the air an open area about one kilometer across which was full with corpses almost everywhere..."

***

An inhabitant of Khojaly, Djanan Orudjev, also provided information on the many victims, mostly women and children. His 16-year-old son was shot, and his 23-year-old daughter with her twin children and another 18-year-old daughter who was pregnant, were taken hostage. Sana Talybova, who witnessed the tragedy as it unfolded, watched as four Meskheti Turks, refugees from Central Asia, and three Azerbaijanis were beheaded near the grave of an Armenian soldier; children were tortured and killed in front of their parents; and two Azerbaijanis had their eyes taken out with screwdrivers. The organized nature of the extermination of the population of Khojaly was evident from the killing, in previously prepared ambushes, of peaceful inhabitants who fled the town in desperation to save their lives. For example, Elman Mamedov, chief of administration in Khojaly, reported that a large group of people who had left Khojaly came under intensive fire from Armenian positions near the village of Nakhichevanik. Another resident of Khojaly, Sanubar Alekperova, reported numbers of corpses of women, children and old people near Nakhichevanik, where they fell into an ambush. Her mother and her two daughters, Sevinzh and Khidzhran, were killed and she herself was wounded. Faced with this mass shooting, some of the group made for the village of Gyulably, but there Armenians took some 200 people hostage. Among them was Dzhamil Mamedov; the Armenians tore out his nails, beat him and took away his grandson. His wife and daughter vanished without trace.

***

"I had heard a lot about wars, about the cruelly of the Fascists, but the Armenians were worse, killing five and six-year-old children, killing innocent civilians", said a French journalist, Jean-Yves Junet, who visited the scene of this mass murder of women, old people, children and defenders of Khojaly.

«Khojaly - The Last Day»,
Baku, Azrbaijan publishers, 1992.

***

http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_azerbaijan/khojaly3_TN.gif (http://www.armenianreality.com/massacres_in_azerbaijan/khojaly3.jpg) The report of Memorial, a Moscow-based human rights group, on the massive violations of human rights committed during the massacre of Khojaly, says of the civilians flee in the town: "Efell into ambushes set by the Armenians and came under fire. Some of them nonetheless managed to gel into Agdam; others, mostly women and children, froze to death while lost in the mountains; others still, according to testimony from those who reached Agdam, were taken prisoner near the villages of Pirdzhamal and Nakhichevanik. There is evidence from inhabitants of Khojaly, who have already been exchanged, thai some of the prisoners were shot ... Around 200 bodies were brought into Agdam in this space of four days. Scores of the corpses bore traces of profanation. Doctors on a hospital train in Agdam noted no less than Four corpses that had been scalped and one that had been beheaded. State forensic examinations were carried in Agdam on 181 corpses (130 male and 51 female, including 13 children); the findings were that 151 people had died from gunshot wounds. 20 from shrapnel wounds and 10 from blows inflicted with a blunt instrument... The records of the hospital train in Agdam, through which almost all the injured inhabitants or defenders of Khojaly passed, refer to 598 cases of wounds or frostbite E and one case of live scalping." ("A tragedy whose perpetrators cannot be vindicated. A report by Memorial, the Moscow-based human rights group, on the massive violations of human rights committed in the taking of Khojaly on the night of February 25-26, 1992 by armed units.)

«Svoboda» newspaper,
June 12, 1992.

*** The massacre of Khojaly set a pattern of destruction and ethnic cleansing methodically carried out by the Armenian armed forces. On November 29, 1993, Newsweek quoted a senior US Government official as saying: "What we see now is a systematic destruction of every village in their way. It's vandalism."
Every year religious leaders of Azerbaijan; Christian, Jewish and Muslim communities issue appeals on the eve of commemoration of the massacre of Khojaly. This year four leaders of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish communities, the Orthodox Bishop of Baku and Caspian region, and the Spiritual Leader of Caucasus Muslims urged the international community to condemn the February 26, 1992 bloodshed and facilitate liberation of the occupied territories.
Religious leaders of Azerbaijan diverse communities stated their rejection of extremism and policy of ethnic cleansing conducted by Armenia. They see the future of Azerbaijan as beine a democratic secular society based on humanistic values.

with photos

LIA FLAME

10-24-2004, 01:07 PM

Mona Lisa :)

as i promised, here i am (http://www.forum.uz/showthread.php?t=13734&page=9&pp=15):) sorry 4 makin u wait 4 me. & wz waitin 4 weekends myself, 2 get time 4 some research. Although I know the general outline of the history behind the topic, I referred to sources & 2 a historian friend 2 avoid bias. & iäm terribly bad @ remembering dates & names :oops:

so.. tk kak do etogo momenta ne bilo sereznix discussiy, iäll drop only short comments on previous posts & go ahead with representing the problem.

JoJ: u#r right. current territory f Armenia s scarce on natural resources. we got mountains, stones da kamni. ostaetca bit umnim. we’r rich of human recourses. hm.. not by quantity. de facto in our 29000km sq live only some 2mln of Armenians. mayb the official #s r higher (sorry, i am not the speaker of parliament f Republic of Armenia in forum.uz). so our main natural resource is brain. 4o imeem, tem i bogati.

concerning Russia, together with Iran they r strategic partners of Armenia in the region. they need Armenia not less, than we them. partners r supposed 2 support each other, although it accrued only @ the end of the war. Azerbaijan had more massive support & military existence from Turkey, let then they ‘d won the war. whereas for Armenians it was a fight 4 life & homeland, 4 azeries it was a fight for extra piece of land they got as a gift from Soviets.

kayrakan, 4twelve: u started this topic parallel to genocide topic, then make an effort to distinguish between these completely different issues.

shady_lady: peredumala ignoririvt tvoi shedevri. "koroche knijka poleznaya dlya chteniya"
- iz daleka vidna "pol'za" na tvoe mishlenie. imenno na eto i ras4itivali avtori.

brb, LILKA

LIA FLAME

10-24-2004, 01:32 PM

ORIGINS:

Artsakh as a part of the Kingdom of Ararat (Urartu) is mentioned in the 8th century BC in cuneiform inscriptions of the King Sardur. As a province of the Greater Armenia, Artsakh is mentioned in several ancient authors' works, particularly in Strabo's Geography. In the 1st century BC, when Armenia became a powerful state, Tigranes the Great built the city of Tigranakert, one of the four cities of that name, near the present city of Aghdam.

In the early 4th century, Armenia was Christianized. In Artsakh, Gregory the Illuminator founded the first church near a small river of Amaras. Later in the 5th century it became the famous monastery. After St. Mesrob invented the Armenian alphabet in 405, a large number of schools appeared in Artsakh, making the province one of the centres of Armenian and Christian enlightenment and culture.

Owing to its advantageous geographical location, Artsakh partly avoided the large-scale Seljuk invasion in the 11-12th centuries, as well as the Tatar-Mongolian invasions in the 13th century. A number of outstanding monuments were built, of which the most sumptuous were the monasteries of Gandzasar and Dadivank. However, some of the churches were destroyed in the 14th century, when a number of Turkish nomadic tribes invaded Artsakh.
In the 15th century, the territory of Armenia became the scene of confrontation between the Ottoman Empire and Persia. Following the truce concluded in 1639, Artsakh with the rest of the Eastern Armenia became part of Persia.

From the late 16th century, the Armenian Princes of Artsakh, called now Meliks of Karabakh began to unite into the military unions. The five of the most influential Meliks forming the so-called Country of Five were Melik of Gulistan, Melik of Dgeraberd, Melik of Khachen, Melik of Dizak and Melik of Varanda.

As the Meliks of Karabakh fought against different Turkish tribes, some Persian rulers, such as Nadir Shah (1732-1747) often encouraged them.
The Persian-Turkish yoke lasted until the beginning of the 19th century. Following the Russian expansion, Persia gradually ceded to Russia most of the Caucasus including Karabakh. The Treaty of Gulistan signed in 1813, asserted the Russian annexation. Evolving the expansion, Russian czar Nicholas I began the new war with Persia in 1826. The war ended in 1828 with the Russian acquisition of Yerevan and Nakhichevan Khanates. Thus, the Eastern Armenia was definitely attached to the Russian Empire.

Shushi, which became city in 1847, grew into the one of important centers of Caucasus, in which trade and commerce flourished rapidly. Shushi also became the center of the Armenian enlightenment and culture. Of 22 newspapers and periodicals published in Shushi before the 1917 Russian Revolution, 20 were published in Armenian language and 2 were published in Russian.
The Russian Revolution of 1917 put an end to czarist administrative division of Caucasus. In March of 1918, the Armenian, Georgian and Moslem leaders of Caucasus united to form an independent multiethnic Transcaucasian Confederation.
On May 27, the Moslem deputies of the Confederation proclaimed a Musavatist Republic of Azerbaijan. The new Turkish state immediately laid claims to the entire territory of the former Elizavetopol Guberniya. Nun Pasha, commander of Ottoman forces, made an ultimatum to the Armenians of Karabakh to submit to Azerbaijan. In August, the Congress of Armenians of Karabakh unanimously rejected the ultimatum.

In September 1918, the Turkish forces invaded Baku, unleashing ruthless massacres of the peaceful Armenian population. Afterwards, the Turkish army entered Shushi. The war was impending, as the army of Armenian volunteers led by General Andranik approached Karabakh for help. However, General Thompson, British Commander of Caucasus stopped Andranik, promising to solve the problem during the Paris Peace Conference. In the summer of 1919, leaning on the British guaranty and trying to gain time and prevent the massacres, the 7th Congress of Armenians of Karabakh temporarily recognized the authority of Azerbaijan pending the final decision of the Paris Peace Conference.

However, shortly thereafter Britain began the withdrawal of its forces from Caucasus. The Paris Conference gave no result. Getting carte blanche for a definitive capture of Karabakh, the General Sultanov appointed governor of Karabakh presented a new ultimatum, demanding immediate attachment of Karabakh to Azerbaijan. Armenians rejected the ultimatum again.
In March 1920, after fierce fighting the Turkish forces invaded Shushi. Some 20,000 Armenians were killed and the city was burned to the ground. The arriving of the Armenian forces rescued the rest of population from the total annihilation.

On April 23, 1920 the 9th Congress of Armenians of Karabakh proclaimed Nagorno-Karabakh an integral part of Armenia.

The situation changed again after the Russian Red Army annexed Azerbaijan. On April 28, 1920 Azerbaijan became a Soviet Republic. Now the Republic of Armenia began receiving ultimatums from both Soviet Azerbaijan and Russia to withdraw Armenian troops from Karabakh and Zanguezour. In May 1920, Karabakh was Sovietized by the 11th Red Army. However, the region remained independent de facto, for the Soviet Government declared it a "contestable" territory.

Meanwhile, the Republic of Armenia, facing both Turkish and Bolshevik aggressions was next to the total destruction. Despite numerous resolutions and agreements, such as the Treaty of Sèvres, bounding Turkey to return the Armenian lands, the Armenian government could not expect physical help from anywhere. On November 29, 1920 the power in Armenia was transferred to the Bolsheviks, and the country became a Soviet Republic. Surprisingly, on the next day a telegram was sent from the government of the Soviet Azerbaijan to the new Armenian government, declaring Karabakh, Nakhichevan and Zanguezour integral parts of the newborn Armenian Soviet Republic. This telegram was signed by Azerbaijan's Bolshevik leaders Narimanov and Guseinov, who urged to "communicate the decision of Azerbaijan to the fraternal Armenian people".

Soon afterwards, however, the Turkish and Russian leaders were able to reach understanding upon carve-up Armenia. in result of Turk-Russian negotiations on July 5 1921 Stalin postponed the decision(04.07.1921) by Cavburo to leave Karabakh within ArmCCP.

The year 1921 brought tragic territorial losses for Armenia. The Treaty of Moscow (March 1921), the Treaty of Kars (October 1921), and plenary sessions of the Caucasian Office of Russian Communist Party (June-July 1921) tore away historical lands from Armenia, reducing its territories thrice. With the stroke of a pen, Nakhichevan and Nagorno-Karabakh were forcibly attached to the Soviet Azerbaijan.

The autonomous region of Nagorno-Karabakh was formed on July 7, 1923. The map of the historical Artsakh was then systematically redrawn and some of its parts were cut off and included in the neighboring regions of the Azerbaijan Republic. For example, Gulistan became Shahumian region, Guetashen and Martunashen went to Khanlar region, and even Dadivank monastery found itself beyond the formal borders of Artsakh. Moreover, the Soviet power intentionally annexed and attached to Azerbaijan what are now Kaelbajar and Lachin regions, and so Karabakh was entirely cut off from Armenia and became an enclave.

During the decades of Soviet rule, the Armenians of Artsakh repeatedly protested against the policy of barefaced discrimination and persecutions. Planning to change the ethnic structure of population, the government of Azerbaijan tried all ways to impede economic development of the region, and also pursued severe discrimination in cultural realm. Many Armenian schools and establishments ceased to exist, and the Armenian newspapers and periodicals were shut down. Out of more than 200 active Armenian churches no one was allowed to function. At the same time both of the two mosques built in Shushi in the late 19th century functioned freely.

2b continued.

JoJ

10-24-2004, 04:42 PM

4twelve

10-25-2004, 07:45 AM

Lia Flame..

Wellcome..Thanks for your comments but do you have something more about your own ideas not the very known from the net..

SmIlIk

10-25-2004, 03:14 PM

Why don't we just stop everything right there where it belongs (history) and work on our relationships to make better life in the future? what is the purpose of posting all these information which will not change the history but harm the future. :(

LIA FLAME

10-25-2004, 03:22 PM

kogda mongolskiyi zahvatchiki v podderjke kitaysev zahvatili territoriyu Kazahstana, oni ubili bolshe chem miilion lyudey. Uchenniyi govoriat, shto v to vremia jili okolo 2 million kazahov. Mojet kazaham toje obratitsa v UN o genoside kazah?

sorry
prosba k te i ko vsem u4astnikam diskusii. esli xotite 4to-t viskazat pro genocid, nezavisimo armyanskiy ili drugoy, ili vashe pro yavlenie genocid, discuss it in a appropriate topic. this 1 is over the conflict known as “Armenian-azeri conflict over NK”. mayb the topic name s confusion prone itself, refer 2 the author -our Turkish member 4 that.
turks try to present Armenian-azeri war as a genocide of azeri by arm-s & azeris generally donät mind it. the logic behind is simple: if turks somehow prove that Armenians somewhere, somewhen ‘we committed a genocide, then they#ll get rig of moral, territorial, financial or any kind of responsibility for Armenian genocide.
not 2 continue offtoping here, iäll answer u in arm gen thread.

4twelve: have a patience. i will share my own ideas on this issue. but before starting up a discussion, smb needs to bring the background of the problem, koz most ppl here have a vague idea of the conflict, if any. i bring only a brief chronological overview of the problem, appreciate my work & time:)
Lil

LIA FLAME

10-25-2004, 03:33 PM

Hiloka, jana, we canät change the history, but can influence 2day & our future. & this kind of discussions do not harm the future neither of some person nor of some nation. on the contrary, it gives opportunity to find common edges. otherwise they sit in their closed borders, have no chances to communicate with the other side, get 2 know each other, achieve mutual understanding..
if this kind f conversations r bad 4 smb’s appetite, they have the right not 2 visit this kind f topics. & these topics exist, koz they have demand. ppl want to discuss it 4 some intensives. let them speak out.
keep smiling, Lil

LIA FLAME

10-25-2004, 04:06 PM

CONFLICT DEVELOPMENT:
From 1936, a new concept of "Azerbaijanis" or "Azeris" was brought into general use in the Soviet Union. Before that, what is now Azeri was simply called Turk or Caucasian Tatar. Stalin ordered the Soviet historians to create the "history of Azerbaijan". As a result, many of the Armenian cultural-historical monuments in Karabakh were then destroyed or declared belonging to the Azerbaijani heritage.

Aghasi Khanjian, leader of Communist Party of Armenia tried to raise the Armenian grievances before Stalin. He was later shot dead by the odious Beria. Then a campaign of purges launched by Stalin swept hundreds of local leaders and activists in Artsakh. In 1945, Arutiunov, Secretary of Communist Party of Armenia wrote a letter to Stalin, asking for reunification of Artsakh with Armenia, but without result.

The next wave of mass protestations in 1965-1967 was suppressed by Azerbaijani government. Hundreds of Armenian activists were arrested on charges of nationalism and some of them were murdered in prisons. Despite the promises, the Soviet government shelved the issue for an indefinite time. In 1975, Kochynian, leader of Soviet Armenia was made scapegoat and removed from his post. The protest demonstrations continued under the next Armenian leader Karin Demirchyan.

By 1986-1987, the economic and cultural oppression against the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh culminated, making their life conditions intolerable. Over 80 000 inhabitants of Artsakh signed a petition demanding the reunification with their motherland Armenia. In February 1988, the deputies of Nagorno-Karabakh adopted a document to the parliaments of Azerbaijan and Armenia. At the same time, an unprecedented movement of support began in Armenia. The general strikes, marches and meetings paralyzed the life in both Armenia and Artsakh.
Both Soviet and Azerbaijani governments firmly opposed to the idea of reunification of Armenia and Artsakh. The Soviet functionaries openly blackmailed the Armenian officials and community leaders, making it clear that the large Armenian population in Azerbaijan might become target of future irregularities.

On February 22, 1988 Azeri mobs marched from Aghdam to Stepanakert to punish the Armenians. The bloodshed was prevented. Yet 6 days later, the unparalleled bloody riots took place in the city of Sumgayit, near Baku. During the 3 days of bloodthirsty pogroms, dozens of innocent Armenians were killed, injured and raped while their apartments were ransacked and set to fire. The Soviet Army intervened on the forth day.
The situation even worsened, as Azerbaijan established a severe blockade of Armenia and Artsakh. The region was isolated from the rest of the world, and the Armenian population was on the verge of starvation.

In the January of 1990, hundreds of Armenians in Baku fell victims in the barbaric pogroms, inspired by the extremists from the Popular Front of Azerbaijan. Many of the Armenians were burned alive in their homes, while others were shot after being raped and tortured. Those survived were herded to the harbor, embarked to the ferry and deported to the Turkmen port of Krasnovodsk. The extremely nationalistic Popular Front in fact seized the power in Azerbaijan, making "Kill the Armenian" and "Cleanse Karabakh of the Armenians" their main banners.

Soon thereafter, the armed confrontation began in the Armenian populated Shahumian and Khanlar regions, and along the Armenian-Azeri border. In October of 1990, the Azeri militia blockaded the airport in Stepanakert suburb of Hodjallu, which definitely isolated Artsakh from Armenia.

In April 1991, the special Azeri and Soviet militia detachment forces began the so-called "Circle" operation. First, the population of the Armenian Guetashen and Martunashen villages of Khanlar region was forcibly deported, then the punitive raids continued in the Shahumian, Hadrout and Shushi regions. These purely terrorist actions conducted by Azerbaijani and Soviet State organs resulted in the depopulation of 24 Armenian villages. During the purges hundreds of Armenians were arrested and killed.

In the face of the forthcoming Azeri aggression and the inevitable collapse of the Soviet Union, the leaders of Artsakh understood the necessity of founding their own statehood in Artsakh. This decision, though opposed to the unanimous popular will to incorporate the region with Armenia, allowed ensuring the security of the population in an optimum way.

LIA FLAME

10-25-2004, 04:08 PM

THE WAR:
From December 1991, the Azerbaijani forces deployed large-scale military operations against Artsakh. The Azeri-populated areas, especially Shushi and Hodjallu were quickly converted into mighty military bases, from which artillery and rocket launchers began systematic bombing of Stepanakert and the surrounding Armenian villages. The "Grad" projectile banned by many international conventions as a weapon of mass destruction was widely used by Azeri military. The twenty-four-hour a day bombing and shelling caused hundreds of deaths and turned the life of Stepanakert inhabitants into a constant nightmare. The Armenians took shelter in basements. Many establishments and institutions, including hospitals and maternity homes also relocated in basements.

The Azeri regular forces, heavily superior in men and machines, began a large-scale offensive in the beginning of 1992. In the early stages of the war, the small groups of Armenian volunteers called Fedayi played the major role in defending the Armenian border villages. However, the growing Azeri aggression necessitated reorganizing the Armenian Fedayi brigades into an effective force under united command. In January of 1992, the special Headquarters was formed to coordinate the defense forces of Artsakh. During the following weeks, the Armenians won their first serious military victories in Stepanakert-adjacent villages of Kirkijan, Malibeyli and Ghushchilar.

After the elimination of Azeri bridgeheads near Stepanakert, the liberations of Khodjalu, Schushi and Lachin became the primary task, as the Azeri forces concentrated in this large village considerable manpower and military equipment.

The Azeri leadership made financial arrangement with commanders of the former Soviet 23-d division of the 4-th Army, winning over a large number of Russian officers, especially in the Tanks.. On August 12, as half of the NKR territory fell under the Azeri occupation, the NKR Parliament decreed marshal law and the mobilization of 18-45 year-olds. On August 15, the State Defense Committee of the NKR was formed, and Robert Kocharyan became its Chairman with emergency powers.
The summer of 1992 was crucial. Despite great losses, the Armenians were able to withstand furious attacks on all front lines. Azeri military widely used bomber forces, in which Russian and Ukrainian mercenary pilots played the major role. Dropping forbidden cluster bombs on the Armenian villages became a common practice.

In February 1994, the Azeri troops made their last attempt to break the Armenian positions in northeast of the NKR, but were defeated again. In April, the final lull was established after the Armenian fighters gained a number of important commanding heights in the Mardakert region. To this day, the NKR Army continues to control most of Nagorno-Karabakh as well as a buffer area comprising neighboring regions in the Azerbaijan Republic.

A cease-fire brokered by Russia and other countries of the CIS was signed in Bishkek, Kirghizia on May 5, 1994. The truce was confirmed on May 16 in Moscow during the meeting of the Defense Ministers of Azerbaijan, Armenia and the NKR. Since then, the issue has become the focus of mediation efforts of OSCE (Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe). A special group, called "Minsk group" was formed by OSCE to work out principles of settling the conflict.

LIA FLAME

10-25-2004, 04:18 PM

finally finished this formal stuff! on these long fact shits i made only some editorial work. now can go ahead discussing! enjoy it. too tired to tell my own word right now, but i#ll join u later on. gut nitie:)

4twelve

10-25-2004, 04:36 PM

JoJ

10-26-2004, 04:22 AM

horoshaya rabota, dorogaya.
could u pls gimme a link;)
just need for my researches

cheers

what a pity that there is no any azeri:(

LIA FLAME

10-31-2004, 09:48 AM

This is the first time i agree with u Lia Flame;) ..How come!!!!
4twelve: & this s the beginning:) let#s drink on this occasion?! I can offer ya Armenian konyak, rotwein or sascisches bier. the choice & the toast fro ya:))

JoJ: lovi links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kocharyan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan
http://www.armenianhistory.info/artsakh1.htm
http://www.armenianhistory.info/artsakh2.htm
http://www.armenianhistory.info/artsakh3.htm

rili pity, that no azris in this topic. but as experience shows, they appear otkuda-nevozmis. if none ll join up, iäll contact my azeri friends & invite, if they#ll get time 4 forum. I donät involve in discussions w-out challenges & opponents:)
esho vernus, esli posle halloween party ll b capable. no 4o-t somnevayus. spokoynix koshmarov vam:P

4twelve

10-31-2004, 01:46 PM

4twelve: & this s the beginning:) let#s drink on this occasion?! I can offer ya Armenian konyak, rotwein or sascisches bier. the choice & the toast fro ya:))

Soory not drinking in Ramadhan ..You drink and enjoy for me;)

4twelve

10-31-2004, 01:49 PM

JoJ: lovi links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kocharyan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan
http://www.armenianhistory.info/artsakh1.htm
http://www.armenianhistory.info/artsakh2.htm
http://www.armenianhistory.info/artsakh3.htm

rili pity, that no azris in this topic. but as experience shows, they appear otkuda-nevozmis. if none ll join up, iäll contact my azeri friends & invite, if they#ll get time 4 forum. I donät involve in discussions w-out challenges & opponents:)
esho vernus, esli posle halloween party ll b capable. no 4o-t somnevayus. spokoynix koshmarov vam:P
You see all from Internet pls tell me something from your own....Make your jugment and even once a time agree....You are wrong about your arguments.....

4twelve

11-01-2004, 01:47 PM

horoshaya rabota, dorogaya.
could u pls gimme a link;)
just need for my researches

cheers

what a pity that there is no any azeri:(Espcıally check the followıng lınks pls...
http://www.karabakh.org/
http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/
http://www.kultur.gov.tr/portal/tarih_tr.asp?belgeno=1571
http://www.belgenet.com/arsiv/agitistanbul_2.html
http://www.karabakh.org/?id=3010&item=3

4twelve

11-01-2004, 01:49 PM

THE DEVELOPMENTS OF MARCH - APRIL, 1918 ON THE AZERBAIJAN TERRITORY
...The confession of one of the «heroes of the unconquerable» dashnak detachment of Andranik: «I have annihilated the Tatar (read Azerbaijan - A.M.) population in Basar-Kechar (it is former Azerbaijan region) indiscriminately. The best means against these dogs - to gather all still alive, to fill wells with them and from above to press by heavy stones until they die. I have done like that: I have gathered all men, women and children and put an end to their life, casting stones at the wells where they had been thrown...»
A. Lalayan, «The Revolutionary East», No 2-3, 1936
From the eye-witnesses' accounts: «Since early morning the dashnak detachments, who have already become a skilled hand at murdering in neighboring villages, burst into Baku. People hid themselves in houses and cellars. With wild shouts: «Kill, kill dammed Turks» they pursued after people about the whole city. People were dragged out of houses, cellars and killed by shooting, flows with sabres and lances. They broke the doors and gales, disemboweled pregnant women, groups of 10-15 persons raped young women juvenile girls and old women. Everything has been done before eyes of nearly mad men.

Then they gather people in a house, pour kerosene on it and set on fire first having collected all the jewelry. It lasted for a month. It is unbearable to describe the pictures of massacre and terror. Baku was in the power of people who had nothing human in them.

In such a way, with unbelievable cynicism the Azerbaijan nation was being annihilated.

The Armenian bandits killed men not at once, they lied them by feet head first and cut by sabres like carcass in a slaughter-house. The others were tied to the wooden beds, wrapped in carpets and set on fire. Many of them the bandits nailed down to the floor, doors and tables. They collected Holy Writ - Koran and made huge fires, where they threw mollahs alive lied by hands and feel. All this was taking place before the eyes of local Armenians who applauded to boastings and murders.

Horrible it was the picture when a dashnak detachment surrounded the building at the entry to the Fortress, where there were about 2 thousand of the wounded and sick Azerbaijanis, Russians, Lezghins and Jews. By the order of Amazasp, whose right-hand man was Anastas Mikoyan, some persons poured much kerosene from the roof into windows and doors and another group set fire on the building turned into a large flaming bonfire from where heart-tearing cries were heard and the environs was filled with pungent, suffocating smell of burning human bodies».

According to another eye-witness, Baku citizen who watched this brutality from the roof of some remote building: «Through a large opening on the heap of dead bodies having already became charred I saw people who were crawling with wailing, they were battering, writhing with pain in awful sufferings. Then I saw nothing: a terrible vision disappeared in a whirlwind of smoke, spark and flame. The Armenian soldiers standing around this bonfire shot everybody who tried to escape. In Shemakha Amazasp and Stepan Lalayev committed atrocities. All the women, girls, children were outraged, dishonored, hung in the trees and smashed against stones. If some woman's necklace could not be taken off, her head was cut off by the blow of a knife. To get earnings the ears were torn off and to take bracelets the girls' hands were cut off and the girls were killed in their mother's arms.»

So it has been executed V.I.Lenin's decree «On the Turkish Armenia» and establishing of Soviet power in Armenia!

Meanwhile, the Russian officers and soldiers having seen themselves the Armenian's brutality towards the Turkish population and being aware of their own responsibility began to leave the Caucasian front in mass.

Colonel Tverdokhlebov truthfully describes in his memoirs events of those days and you, reader, already know about it.

Butcher of the peoples Andranik, who was an outlaw by the Turkish government, at the meeting of the Armenian National Council on December 15, 1917 made a statement:

«I think, if the front will fall to pieces like this, perhaps we should be reconciled with the Turks».

JoJ

11-02-2004, 06:37 AM

Key West Talks
For the Resolution of the Karabakh ConflictTitle: History of the Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict
Date Released: March 30, 2001
Source: U.S. Department of State

In the late l8th century, several khanates, including Karabakh, emerged in the south Caucasus to challenge the waning influence of the Ottoman Empire. After the Russian Empire eventually took control over the region in 1813, Azerbaijani Turks began to emigrate from Karabakh while the Armenian population of mountainous (nagorno) Karabakh grew. With the 1917 Russian Revolution, Azerbaijan and Armenia each declared independence and sought control over Karabakh during the Russian Civil War. In 1923, after the Bolshevik takeover of the Caucasus, Nagorno-Karabakh (NK) was made an autonomous region within the Azerbaijani Soviet Republic. Soviet control temporarily quieted ethnic tensions.

By the 1980s, NK's population was about 75% ethnic Armenian, with most Azerbaijanis living in the district and city of Susha. During the glasnost of the late 1980s, there was a push for a change in NK's status. In 1988, Armenian demonstrations against Azerbaijani rule broke out in both NK and Armenia, and the NK Supreme Soviet voted to secede from Azerbaijan. In 1990, after violent episodes in NK, Baku, and Sumgait, Moscow declared a state of emergency in NK, sent troops to the region and forcibly occupied Baku. In April 1991, Azerbaijani militia and Soviet forces targeted Armenian paramilitaries operating in NK; Moscow also deployed troops to Yerevan. However, in September 1991 Moscow declared it would no longer support Azerbaijani military action in N-K. Armenian militants then stepped up the violence. In October 1991, a referendum in N-K approved independence.

The violence increased dramatically after the withdrawal of Soviet troops. Over 30,000 people were killed in the fighting from 1992 to 1994. In May 1992, Armenian and Karabakhi forces seized Susha (the historical, Azerbaijani-populated capital of the region) and Lachin (thereby linking NK to Armenia). By October 1993 Armenian and Karabakhi forces eventually succeeded in occupying almost all of NK, Lachin and large areas in southwestern Azerbaijan. As Armenian and Karabakhi forces advanced, hundreds of thousands of Azerbaijani refugees fled to other parts of Azerbaijan. In 1993 the UN Security Council adopted resolutions calling for the cessation of hostilities, unimpeded access for international humanitarian relief efforts, and the eventual deployment of a peacekeeping force in the region. The UN also called for immediate withdrawal of all ethnic Armenian forces from the occupied territories of Azerbaijan. Fighting continued, however, until May 1994 when Russia brokered a cease-fire.

LIA FLAME

11-02-2004, 09:59 AM

You see all from Internet pls tell me something from your own....Make your jugment and even once a time agree....You are wrong about your arguments.....
4twelve: how my arguments can i b wrong, if i didnät argue so far. i just brought some background facts. & smb asked 4 sources, i brought. or whatever i tell is wrong 4 u by default? koz not enough grey cells 2 process my arguments?

ur next posts only paint a generous smile on my face:) iäll comment them, but short f time right now. just a quick request. u claim ur heartbreaking tale took place in "APRIL, 1918 ON THE AZERBAIJAN TERRITORY", ritie? & could u plz tell us who r azeris? what a tribe is that, where came from, how appeared in history stage & stuff like? thx.

as i noticed, there s an urgent need to bring the history of creation f Azerbaijan. i should 've brought beside the history f Kharabakh (armenia) also the history of azerbaijan, that is relevant in this conflict’s content. can anybody do that? it#d better azeris speak f their history. & save me time:) (auu leopoldi, vixodite)

JoJ: thx 4 quotes. but itäs incomplete. nevermind, iäll add what fails.
tschussie, Lil

4twelve

11-02-2004, 10:04 AM

4twelve: how my arguments can i b wrong, if i didnät argue so far. i just brought some background facts. & smb asked 4 sources, i brought. or whatever i tell is wrong 4 u by default? koz not enough grey cells 2 process my arguments?

Pls study following link and that you can understand who are the azeri peoples and how your ancestors kill them .......
http://www.karabakh.org/
BST RGRDS

4twelve

11-02-2004, 10:09 AM

REPORT
On Mass human rights violation during the deportation of Azerbaijanis from Armenia as well as from Azerbaijani territories occupied by Armenian military forces.
The policy of genocide and «ethnic cleansing» that Armenia carries out in relation to Azerbaijani people was reflected in active operations of Armenian separatists, since 1988, which are supported by powerful Armenian lobbies in major Western countries.

During the period from 1988 till 1989 about 40,897 families (total: 185,519 people) of Azerbaijanis and Kurds were deported from their places of permanent residence in Armenia. 218 Azerbaijanians were killed during the deportation, 45 of them froze to death, trying to escape in the mountains, 43 died as a result of cruel beating, 34 were killed after cruel tortures, 19 were burned, 16 were shot, 13 persons died of heart attacks after tortures; 6 were killed by Armenian doctors in hospitals, 2 were drowned; 1 person was hung, 2 committed suicide in a protest against tortures, 1 was killed after he was subjected to electric shock-treatment, 1 was beheaded, 18 were killed after being run over by car, 5 persons, being at the hospital, were reported lost and 12 were reported missing.

Obviously there is no hope that those who are missing are still alive. Most of the killed are children, women and elderly people.

21 children died at that period, three of them were under 1 year old. Nabiyeva Zohra, a 7-year-old girl, was burned. A 3-year-old boy Rahman Mamedov was denied medical care, as a result of which he died. Seven children froze to death; two died after cruel beating, 2 more were shot. A 3-year-old Elman Aliyev died after heart attack. Four children died not enduring the tortures, 3 children were run over by a car.

28 women were killed in Armenia. Seven of them were beaten to death, 5 were frozen, 4 died of tortures, 3 died for infarct, 2 died under wheels of the car, 1 was, beheaded, 1 woman was throttled in the water, 1 was burned. Two women died as a result of gunshot wound denied medical care, and doctors at the hospital killed 1. Novruzova Banovsha was reported missing. Taking into account the fact that there has been no news from her for nearly 6 years, she is supposed to be dead.

During the deportations, from Armenia, 60 elderly persons died. There are 40 men and 20 women among them. Most of them died as a result of torture, bullet wounds, heart attacks beatings, and frostbite's. The following cases are most remarkable:

Aliyeva Ciulsum (76 years old), Isgandarova Khanum (73 years old), Alivev Mehrali (68 years old), Bairamov Garih (67 years old) and Huseynova Leila (63 years old) were burned. The doctor at the hospital killed Hassan Ellazov, of 68 years old. The crudest acts of brutality were marked in the Ghukark region, 22 persons were killed there and 13 among them were burned to death.

Hundreds of centuries old Azerbaijani monuments on the territory of Armenia, where Azerbaijanis had lived in 89 populated areas inhabiting 171 villages were either destroyed or Armenized.

Azerbaijan received approximately 50 thousand Meskhetian Turks, refugees from the Central Asia. The total amount of damages caused to people, who'd left their homes in Armenia and Central Asia, is 255 billion roubles.

In order to obliterate from history the evidence of Azerbaijanians' residence in Armenia, about 94 villages were renamed on Armenian territory by a Supreme Soviet Decree of the Republic of Armenia, dated April 9, 1991. Having realized its plan of «ethnic cleansing», Armenian politicians have begun to put into practice the next phase that directed at the immediate seizure by force of Azerbaijani territories.

As a result of this large-scale aggression by the Armenians part about 20 percent of the territory of Azerbaijan have been annexed by the regular Armenian military units and those of Mountainous Karabakh Armenians and foreign hirelings. More than 700 populated centers are plundered, destroyed and burned, and only 170 of them are situated in Mountainous Karabakh.

The total number of the refugees and displaced persons is over 1 million people (about 200 thousand are Azerbaijanians, exiled from Armenia; 50 thousand are originally from Central Asia - Meskhet Turks). The number of those who left their places of residence as a result of the capture of the part of the territory of Azerbaijan is about 800.000 people.

4twelve

11-02-2004, 10:11 AM

Considerable areas of cultivated land have become unfit for agricultural purposes. More than 4.000 of industrial objects, commercial enterprises, and public catering centers, about 80.000 places of residence, more than 2.000 objects of social and cultural purpose, including 541 secondary schools, 230 pre-school and 250 medical institutions have been destroyed. The total number of women, old men and children killed has reached 16.000 people the number of wounded is over 30,000 people, more than 50.000 people became disabled, the number of those taken into hostage and missing is 4.000.

Among those who were taken hostages there are 320 women, 73 of them are old aged (older than 61 years old) and 71 children, who are kept in different places, many were committed to custody in Khankendi and 1 in the Ministry of National Security of Armenia, and private houses. The price for one hostage was about 3 to 15 mln. roubles. The price for corpses that Armenia selled, reached 1 mln. roubles and more. In this connection, we would like to quote some facts of murders, capture and keeping of hostages. One of the most monstrous crimes against Azerbaijani people is the tragedy in Khojaly, a town that was seized by Armenian troops in February 1992. On February 25 and 26 Armenian Army by support of the 336th guards regiment of the Russian Federation has destroyed Azerbaijani town Khojaly in Karabakh. Inhabitants of the town have pressed to the fighting infantry machines and tanks. Old men, women and children have been fired at close, pulled out their nails, put out their eyes and cut out of their ears. Only, sole their guilt was on being them Azerbaijanians. Thousands of people of Khojaly have been mercilessly killed or taken into hostage.

Khojaly - Azerbaijan settlement, occupying a strategically location in roads Aghdam-Shusha, Khankendi(Stepanakert)-Askeran. Population of the town: more than 7.000 according to growth of population it became as town. Here found shelter refugees from Uzbekistan-Meskhetian Turks and Azerbaijani refugees from Armenia.

The number of inhabitants of Khojaly, killed and frozen to death is about 1.000 people, as a result of barbarous actions of vandalism. Among the killed are many children from 2 to 15 years old, women and old men. The position of the corpses demonstrates the fact that people were killed cruelly without compassion.

Some were killed one at a time, after being led away, and some - in family groups, all at once. Several corpses showed the sign of several wounds, one of which was in the head. It points to the fact that the wounded were finished off. A number of the children killed were found with the cut-off ears; the skin from the left side of the face of one old woman was cut out, men were scalped. According to the testimony of one inhabitant of Khojaly Sarya Talibova, about 4 Meskhet Turks, refu-gees from the Central Asia and 3 Azerbaijanis were beheaded, their children were tortured and killed under their very eyes, the eyes of 2 Azerbaijanis in the National Army's uniform were put out by means of screwdriver. According to the inhabitants of Khojaly, who returned from captivity, they were regularly subjected to brutal tortures and beatings, a number of woman and minors were raped.

A lot of Russian and western newspapers and magazines wrote about crimes of Armenian aggressors from the 1-th till the 16-th of March 1992. Among them are: «Sunday Times», «Times», «Guardian», «Financial Times», «Le Monde», «Le Croix», «Valeurs Actuels», «Corriera della Serra», «Time», «Newsweek», «Izvestiya», «Pravda», «Nezavisimuva gazeta», etc.

On March 31, 1993, when Armenian troops were taking the city of Kelbajar, 11 persons, trying to break away from town, were captured as hostages. 7 women were among them, 4 of them were wounded. Karimova Samaya who was born in 1967, committed suicide, since she couldn't bear the outrage. Her 2-year-old daughter left after her, was bought back for 1,5 mln. roubles. But the child, who had the head injury after she spent 4 months in prison, lost its eyesight. As for the others, there's no news about them. According to our information, they are kept in the city of Khankendi. On July 2, 1993, the family of Nuriyev, the inhabitants of Fizuli, (19 persons on the whole), was taken into hostage.

Among them are: 8 women, 2 of them are of old age and 7 children. On the part of International Read Cross Committee, 47 people, kept in Khankendi, were discovered. Among them are: 8 women, 7 persons of old age and 10 children, also 10-month-old child Ilyasov Babek, helped out later of the Armenian captivity with the help of IRCC. According to medical expertise, he wasn't rendered help in captivity after getting severe shellburst shrapnel eye wound, as a result of that it's impossible now to preserve the child's eyesight.

In the, time of seizure of Aghdam by the Armenian troops, passenger-car, with help of which, the family of Aliyev, including 6 persons, trying to get away from the town was fired on. Among them were 2 women; one of them is of old age, old man and 2 children - 2 and 3 years old. The old man and the child were killed while they were under the fire. The rest of them got the wounds of different degree. Aliyev Shovghi, the 3-year-old boy, got the shoulder trauma. After medical interference of Armenian doctors in Khankendi the boys shoulder middle third was extracted. Later on, with the efforts of IRCC, his badly wounded mother and grandmother were returned to their land. According to the results of medical investigation in Baku, doctors said that there was no necessity in extracting his bone and his wound didn't need such medical actions. According to the opinion of specialists, such gunshot wounds don't require extraction of large fragments that are bones of growth zone.

In a majority of world press publications, concerning the transplantation of human organs, Armenia is the principal supplier of this kind of «goods». One can't help mentioning the fact that this child has become a victim of a criminal business. It's wrong to except that this kind of business is one of the principal reason for taking the hostages in a mass order on occupied Azerbaijanian lands. Numerous facts point to the use of the Azerbaijani captives. According to the brief extract from the case history of Mamedov Mayil, born in October 4, 1971, he was taken by the Armenian combatants into captivity in the district of Khankendi and imprisoned, where he had tried systematic derisions, was beaten with the gun and the hammer, the result of it was fracture of left foot bones, left forearm bones and shoulder bones. On October 7, 1992 he was put a scorching metal cross on the chest. In February, 1993 he was intravenously injected violently some kind of fluid, after that the symptoms of allergy appeared on his body.

Mamedov Mayil was set free on May 9, 1993 in exchange with Armenian captive combatant.

According to medical conclusion, Mamedov Abdulazim, 27-year-old, was wounded in the left leg and was taken in Armenian combatant's captivity. Besides, he had gunshot punctured wound of left shank tissues and numerous shrapnel injures. According to Mamedov's words, after one-hour interrogation, he and 8 soldiers of National Army, taken in captivity with him, began to be beaten with rubber cudgel on the head, back, hands and then they made an injection in the neck with some kind of medicine, and after it he was imprisoned.

.

LIA FLAME

11-02-2004, 10:13 AM

this link iäve already noticed in ur previous post. if it was satisfactory, iäd not ask the ? . could u still answer it urself? the link iäll l8er comment here, got a class now.

LIA FLAME

11-04-2004, 08:58 AM

concerning JoJ’s quote from
Key West Talks For the Resolution of the Karabakh ConflictTitle: History of the Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict
Date Released: March 30, 2001
Source: U.S. Department of Stateu forgot the source: http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/karabakh/karabakh_current/keywest_history.html azri 1:)
It turns out here, that not Armenian population has decreased, but azeri?!

Q: Who lives there? (Kharabakh)
A: In 1989 the population was 192,000 of whom three quarters (ab 75%)were Armenians and the rest Azerbaijanis. In 1921, when the region was allocated to Azerbaijan, the Armenian population was 94%. The numbers have been depleted by the war. Both sides passionately dispute the history of the region, but it is clear that for hundreds of years it has been ethnically mixed. The Armenians have left more physical evidence behind them in the form of dozens of medieval churches, but the Azeris also built two mosques in the town of Shusha, where famous musicians and poets lived.
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/analysis/72268.stm

Armenian losses in Nagorno-Karabakh. "Control of Nagorno-Karabakh (the conventional geographic term is based on the Russian for the phrase ‘mountainous Karabakh’) had been contested by the briefly independent republics of Armenia and Azerbaijan after World War I. In 1924 the Soviet government designated the region an autonomous region under Azerbaijani jurisdiction within the TSFSR.

At the time, 94.4 percent of the estimated 131,500 people in the district were Armenian. Between 1923 and 1979, the Armenian population of the enclave dropped by about 1,000, comprising only about 76 percent of the population by the end of the period. In the same period, the Azerbaijani population quintupled to 37,000, or nearly 24 percent of the region's population.

Armenians feared that their demographic decline in Nagorno-Karabakh would replicate the fate of another historically Armenian region, Nakhichevan (nah-chee-chi- VAHN, an Azerbaijan enclave separated from the rest of the country by Armenia), which the Soviet Union had designated an autonomous republic under Azerbaijani administration in 1924.

In Nakhichevan the number of Armenians had declined from about 15,600 (15 percent of the total) in 1926 to about 3,000 (1.4 percent of the total) in 1979, while in the same period immigration and a higher birth rate had increased the Azerbaijani population from about 85,400 (85 percent) to 230,000, or nearly 96 percent of the total."
Source: http://wrc.lingnet.org/armenhis.htm

“With the 1917 Russian Revolution, Azerbaijan and Armenia each declared independence..”
“Armenian and Karabakhi forces seized Susha (the historical, Azerbaijani-populated capital of the region)”.
:lool:
o.b. No comments by now on it. I need the history of Azerbaijan to tell anything else.
rgrds, Lil

offtop:
yo 4twelve, u still alive? Or busy composing ur next bestseller horror-tale? (btw, halloween is gone, relex:)). Instead of fooling around ppl here tell us who are azeris. Or mayb uäll volunteer & bring here the creation of Azerbaijan rep.? oh better not. Then iäll hafta waste time on correcting ur fraud. i will not bring any argument, unless we have real facts as basis. hopefully iäll get time on weekends 4 u:)

4twelve

11-04-2004, 09:39 AM

offtop:
yo 4twelve, u still alive? Or busy composing ur next bestseller horror-tale? (btw, halloween is gone, relex:)). Instead of fooling around ppl here tell us who are azeris. Or mayb uäll volunteer & bring here the creation of Azerbaijan rep.? oh better not. Then iäll hafta waste time on correcting ur fraud. i will not bring any argument, unless we have real facts as basis. hopefully iäll get time on weekends 4 u:)
Is this your your own style or all armanians like you....Should be for all armanians.....Cause when you are guilty best way is attack..Isnt it? Great Armania and its style......Wake Up wake up.... year 2004.... you cannot cheat anybody with this kind of foolish games...REal facts haaa......SO GOOOOOOOODDDDD

4twelve

11-04-2004, 10:07 AM

We know that was a brutality...
My question so why Armenians did it for themself even if they knew the danger of the genocide...

One thing that Armenians can't revanch all turk nations because of history today, because today's might be innocent and ten or may 100 times stronger than them, Turkic people more 200 million today in their country and around the world. Be peaciful if don't want that thing would happen again...

Lie Flame__________ you thing you're proud of Armenian nation... we don't care, and when it comes that way do the same brutality+++ that s called war.

I have been heared Armenian terrorists that killed thousands of innocent people in Turkey by 1970-80. They were one group who were skilled by fighting with arm, then they got great beaten by Turks and brutality form other groups. :twisted:

This is their style Rasulbek....When they kill peoples they have 2 different defence style 1.They made self defence 2.They did nt do that brutality some ppls hire some armanians to make all those thing for blame innocent armanians..
They thinks that all the world will accept their defence and never release thier tricky and disgusting games......

O'zbekiston2006

11-04-2004, 02:25 PM

I don't like Amenans, because I'm Uzbeks that the father Turkish nationality.
Armenian girls are st**ky.. sorry for bad language...:oops:

4twelve

11-04-2004, 02:48 PM

I don't like Amenans, because I'm Uzbeks that the father Turkish nationality.
Armenian girls are st**ky.. sorry for bad language...:oops:

Hey my Man ..Behave yourself.......If you dont like just say i dont like ....but dont say nonsense stupid words to anyone.....Especially to a Girl........Be a Man:evil: :evil: :evil:

JoJ

11-04-2004, 03:44 PM

sorry for interrrupting u guys, just wanna say nice thread for u both;), and ur debates as well;)
for me personnaly, it is very interesting, cause i have to write essay on this issue, thanx guys, keep it on:lol:

4twelve

11-06-2004, 09:05 PM

Lia Flame..

Could you pls check following web pages...It wil be very usefull for you to change your perspective about turkish peoples..But it is armanian and turkish..I hope you can understand;)

http://www.bolsohays.com

LIA FLAME

11-13-2004, 04:20 PM

fasten ur seat belts! Armyanka is back:)

JoJ: aha, & don't forget the statistics here & reference 2 our 4twelve's mind:) i know only 1 arm doctor, that killed his patients -the suicide Dr. Jack Kevorkian. u should incorporate this fact into ur essey to support his info.
but b4 quoting my thoughts on the conflict (still 2 come:), contact me 1st. (C)ed, u know.
keep tuned, me still here

LIA FLAME

11-13-2004, 04:23 PM

Is this your your own style or all armanians like you....Should be for all armanians.....Cause when you are guilty best way is attack..Isnt it? Great Armania and its style......Wake Up wake up.... year 2004.... you cannot cheat anybody with this kind of foolish games...REal facts haaa......SO GOOOOOOOODDDDD
*etc etc*

Lia Flame..

Could you pls check following web pages...It wil be very usefull for you to change your perspective about turkish peoples..But it is armanian and turkish..I hope you can understand;)

http://www.bolsohays.com
4twelve: i'm trying 2 follow the logic of ur postings particularly in this topic, seems beyond my abilities. i haven't launched a discussion, arguing the topic yet, but u blame me of attacking &/or protecting, being wrong, biased.. who i should attack? who i should defense myself from? clueless. or u r too sensitive to my postings? hope u won't have heart attack or loose conscience when i start beside quoting others bring my own thoughts?

& what sort of "perspective about turkish peoples" u think i have? share ur feelings!
or how correlated can b my attitude to turks with Karabakh conflict? u think it developed koz i have some (unknown) feelings towards turks? the conflict started from the point Karabakh was cut from arm & given to az, as a matter f fact, i wasn't born back then yet.

if u wanted to talk only about genocide & armenian/turk rels, we already had a place 4 it. why u opened up a new topic & only keep offtoping here? till this point u didn't bring up anythin related to NK conflict. r u able to understand, that Azerbaijan is not turkey & azeris r not turks? that these 2 topics have little in common? there is no need to make up tales, there is a real conflict, yet to be solved, real ppl who suffered from it.

i promised to comment on ur arguments, but thus i can only disqualify them from this topic. no mood, no time 4 it now. if u want ppl 2 take u serious & start discussion with u instead f ignoring, get out of ur iteration loop, it expired itself. i am more than open 4 hot discussions. if u need a termination condition, let me know, always happy to help u out.
Best, Lil

LIA FLAME

11-13-2004, 05:08 PM

well, let's start sharing own ideas on the issue.
assuming that the audience here knows that in 1813 Russia gained territory (historical East Armenia, Georgia & part of historical north Iran) from Iran, let's go to 20th century & try 2 understand how come Azerbaijan appeared & NK became part of it.

after 1917 revolution of "red masses" Russia temporally lost control of the occupied territories. but the former iranian territories weren't returned to Iran. it's quite logical to think, that Armenians having own traditions of statehood, didn't want to return to iranian rule. taking advantage of chaos Armenians declared independence in East Armenia & established 1st republic f Armenia. the other part of territory taken away from iran was supposed to (@ least would be logical) rejoin motherland Iran. but Iran at that time was in poli-colonial situation, divided into zones (great Britain in South, Russia in North, & Germany in the middle). iran was too weak to unite lands.
remember, in the territory turkey & iran were centuries' competitors for lands & influence share, & remained so (till our days) even after russia & Europe joined the competition.
taking advantage of the geopolitical situation, mussafat turkey sent troops, occupied the nowadays Azerbaijan & created some sort of state under turkish control & influence, although didn't call it turkey. Turkey named that territory Azerbaijan, meaning Iranian Azerbaijan, intending to fight the rest of Iranian Azerbaijan from Iran later on. this state was the prototype of today’s Azerbaijan.

then Russia recovered itself as Soviets & started reoccupying territories. first today's Azerbaijan, then the whole South Caucasus became part of soviet union. turkey was f koz unhappy with loosing the influence on the territories . soon conflict between russia & turkey was solved through compromises. turkey gave up Azerbaijan & Russia gave to Turkey Armenian lands, that were still part of Armenian republic, & passed Karabakh & Nakhijeven (also historical armenian lands, populated mostly by armenians) to Azerbaijan. it might seem strange why turkey wanted such exchanges within Russia. but it was more than logical.

first, after genocide of armenians in West Armenia turkey was troubled, that still a piece of Armenia exists in right neighborhood & there still existed the "Armenian question" (armenian territories), constantly risen by Russia to press on Turkey. Turkey gets out of Azerbaijan, in turn Russia gives away "Armenian question" & some arm lands & makes some administrative changes within Soviet Union. & it cost Russia noting to keep the territories within its control, just passing administrative rule from one of its republics to another. & that point it was mutually advantageous exchange. but it does not mean Turkey gave away its dreams to come back to the south Caucasus territory later on, when Russia would weaken.

second, in South Caucasus Azerbaijan should be turkey's supporting point, as azerbaijaninas already had huge Turkish influence & their language is the most evident expression of it. common religion also played a role. passing now (back in 1920s) some armenian lands to Azerbaijan within Soviet Union meant 4 them gaining more armenian territories together with Azerbaijan on a better day. & as we saw, that day arrived. Soviet Union did collapse. Russia did loose control over Azerbaijan.

another interesting point. russia united under the root of soviet union all kinds of nations, mentalities, cultures.. & eliminated greatly their diversity under 1 soviet shablon. 1 mass-culture: RabIs. & to ensure that nationalism of nations under the control won't wake up & be turned against the centre, all over the soviet union Moscow cut some piece of land from some republic & passed into administration of neighboring rep. thus Russia created impassable barriers between neighbors to unite around common interests & go against Moscow. even if there would arise nationalistic movements, they should fight against each other & destroy themselves instead of going against the soviet system.
under this logic Karabakh & Nakhijevan weren't the only swapped lands. ppl in this forum should know well Bukhara & Samarkand, kirgiz lands. but there r more examples like in Georgia etc. the aim of Moscow is evident, but why exactly from this & that nations were taken lands & given to exactly those & that nations, is another question. make your own judgments & come to own conclusions:)

Stalin & other leaders of Soviet Union were damn smart, but still shortsighted. hardly they could foresee, that some day Soviet Union would disappear but the seeded conflicts will develop independently & shake badly the countries involved. in hot points like Caucasus this hidden conflicts turned into wars, in other regions r still to halt. it's hard 4 me to say whether a state, that received smth in expense of neighbors by soviets had gained much. in the long run it may turn to greater losses. great powers play tricks with small/week nations, whose ppl are always to suffer from these games.

during soviet years conflict over NK wasn't solved or expired, it just was frozen to ice. as we remember fro our childhood, there was one "motherland" sovetskiy soyuz & all the republics, nations were to be "brothers". slabo drujbu narodov! nationalism in any form had no right 4 existence in soviets.

didnät manage to talk about post soviet era, but already too late & too tired. me s a mensch & night s not 4 forums:)
2b continued.
Lilka