Discrimination against Uzbeks

[afandiel]

Before you read the topic below, please note that I am not posting it in order to instigate a hatred among the brother nations of the CA. I am against any kind of discrimination ethnic, religious or whatever.

Some of you may think it is overly exaggerated, however I will tell you my own story which is even worse than that described in the article.

Last summer I went back home for the holidays. And as you can expect most of us visit relatives and other close people during the holidays. So, once I went to a wedding and met a relative of mine for the first time. And during the conversation I learnt some very sad stories about his life.

He currently studeis in one of Tashkent's technical Universities. He is quite a bright young man. However, he does not live with his own family. He lives with his uncle as an 'adopted' son. His uncle adopted him legally in order for him to be able to live and study in Tashkent. Can you imagine that? before he used to live in the North of Turkmenistan in the very same region as mentioned in the article. However, he couldn't even dream of a higher decent education in Turkmen Uni's only becasue he was 'unlucky' to be an Uzbek.

So, his uncle had to adopt him to provide for his education. here, we can blaim Turkmen President and his nationalist policies. But there is some part of blame on ourselves. Firstly we don't have any laws which would provide some protection for people of our nationality abroad. We don't have any provisions for them to be able to benefit from our Education system or whatsoever. People, our own people, have to come up with various solutions to help other Uzbeks.
I strongly believe that we have to protect out national interests wherever possible, that is without prejudice to other people.

below is the article:

Turkmenistan: Uzbek Blues
IWPR, Seid Seidov, 20.04.2002
Uzbek minority loses hope as Niazov attempts to "Turkmenise" the country. The march of nationalism in Turkmenistan, the most hermetic of the former Soviet states of Central Asia, is demoralising the Uzbek minority, who are losing jobs and identity and have nowhere to run to.

Under the leadership of president for life Saparmurad Niazov the drive to "Turkmenise" the country is moving ahead briskly, and minorities find that their livelihoods and separate cultural traditions are in the firing line.

The impact is being felt particularly in the north of country, where most of the 12 per cent Uzbek minority is concentrated.

In the Dashoguz region, which borders Uzbekistan, the community accounts for around 40 per cent of the population but has no special recognition. The frontier, which divides the once powerful state of Khorezm, was established in the Soviet era, leaving many Uzbeks in what is now Turkmenistan.

A recent directive in military and police academies stated that only Turkmens should be enrolled, putting an official stamp of approval on a practice that has been increasingly followed throughout the education system.

Russian, Uzbek and Kazak schools have been gradually turned into Turkmen schools, and there are now demands that all school children should exclusively wear the Turkmen embroidered skull-caps.

"My children are Uzbek, they study at an Uzbek school, we have our own national skull-caps, so why should they be forced to wear Turkmen headwear? What is that, other than an infringement of our national feelings?" commented a neighbour, who is currently unemployed.

Particularly patriotic employers are demanding that female members of staff come to work in traditional Turkmen dresses, irrespective of their nationality. If they don't, they are the first in the firing line should there be any staff cuts.

The Turkmenisation drive is creating problems for Turkmens as well. All official documents are now expected to be written in Turkmen, based on the Latin alphabet instead of Cyrillic.

"It's just a joke," complained Antonina Petrovna, an ethnic Russian secretary. "My bosses, Turkmens, just can't get their heads round the Latin alphabet. I have to rewrite the incoming documents in the old alphabet (Cyrillic), and the outgoing documents in the Latin alphabet.

"If they hadn't increased the age limit for going onto a pension, I would have long ago given up and retired."

Antonina Petrovna's family has long since moved back to Russia under a policy by which Moscow accepts so-called Russian-speakers as immigrants. Astana maintains the same approach for Kazaks wishing to return to their historic homeland.

But Uzbekistan, which with about 25 million people is the most populous state in Central Asia, is not very keen to invite ethnic Uzbeks. The country also has large unemployment problems. So, unlike other nationalities, Uzbeks in Turkmenistan cannot solve their problems by "getting out". They have to accept their situation and bear it.

In addition to the problems with employment, Uzbeks in Turkmenistan have difficulty visiting their relatives across the border in Uzbekistan. New restrictions on crossing the frontier have led to several brushes with the security forces and spontaneous demonstrations on the Turkmen and the Uzbek sides of the border.

Some argue that the Uzbek minority in Turkmenistan should be employed in areas where they are strong. Uzbeks are recognised as excellent builders, but because of decisions taken in Ashgabat, only Turkish companies are involved in construction.

Uzbeks are also good at working the land. But the Aral ecological crisis, several years of water shortages and the poorly thought out policies of the authorities have almost entirely destroyed the agricultural sector.

How long the patience of the Turkmen Uzbeks will last, is a question the authorities in Ashgabat need to face.

Seid Seidov is the pseudonym of a journalist in Turkmenistan


posted by Afandi

[fox]

Niazov is a big freak, dammit. Many turkmens live in Karakalpakstan, neither I nor the others have smth against them. They live as our relatives, brothers, sisters, friends. But Niyazov...dammit...

[nancy]

fox, you're from karakalpakstan too?? :)

anyway, I remember the story when I went home last time. There's a huge cemetary(can't remember where exactly it is, but can find it out upon request) close to the uzbek turkman borders. In fact, some parts of the cemetary is on the turkman side. And guess what turkman officials did during hayit??? They did not allow people to pass to turkman side of the cemetary unless they paid $6!

Actually, it's not easy for turkmans as well. They come to our territory a lot to sell carpets and at least make money that way.

By the way, if you have satellite TV in Uzbekistan, then you can enjoy turkman TV. :) After watching it during the summer, I came to conclusion that there's a democracy and human rights in Uzbekistan. :) :) :)

And the final correction to the article: Turkmenbashi (they call him BUYUK SAPARMURAD TURKMENBASHI) on his birthday PARADE celebration, said that he'd stay in his position for the next 10 years and promised to leave after that.

While typing this thread, I couldn't escape a thought: It's so pity that we are not united as a nation. Like jews we don't support each other, like russians we don't go against eveything as they did when kursk sank. We are too afraid of everything. Were we like that always, or what could possible change our mentality making us so weak???

-MASSAGETKA.

[pax_americana]

Afandi (Apr 24, 2002 07:05):

1) Under the leadership of president for life Saparmurad Niazov the drive to "Turkmenise" the country is moving ahead briskly, and minorities find that their livelihoods and separate cultural traditions are in the firing line.

2) In addition to the problems with employment, Uzbeks in Turkmenistan have difficulty visiting their relatives across the border in Uzbekistan. New restrictions on crossing the frontier have led to several brushes with the security forces and spontaneous demonstrations on the Turkmen and the Uzbek sides of the border.

posted by Afandi

1) Well, I am an ethnic Uzbek living in The Kyrgyz Republic. The article you posted was a bitter story, and I am glad that I live in Kyrgyzstan, where we have our EDUCATED man - Akaev, renown for his democratic propensities.

After the decay of the Soviet Union, the level of nationalism has increased strikingly. As long as the values, these nationalisms claim to struggle for are not taken more broadly, there will always be a threat that any region, which -in fact- is populated by people that are not much different, may turn into something like Caucasus or Balkans. Their petty senses of 'individuality' and 'otherness', and the unwillingness to be a part of a greater thing made those areas extremely unstable.

2) Who was the first to ever implement the visa regime? Wasn't it Uzbekistan?
We have to run here and there in order to get the visa to Uzbekistan. And pay money!!! Simply because we want to see our relatives living in Uzbekistan.

************

One more thing: I dream of one, unified, federal state in Central Asia

[Gotmilk]

Going back to Turkmen bushi, I don't think he has much longer left to his pitiful presidency. Turkmen opposition, which made of former ambassadors and ministers, is getting stronger and stronger. They are much moderate, united and have $$$ to fight Niazov.

As for united Central Asia, I think we have long way to go because of too much foreign influence in the region.

[fox]

pax_amerikana: you know, i'm glad that Uzbekistan implemented VISA on it's borders. It saves Uzbek economy. Moreover, if you are visiting Uzbekistan for no longer than 3 days, you don't need visa.

Nancy: no, i'm not from Karakalpakstan. But i have many friends from there and really like them.

There was another issue with Turkmenistan on the Uzbekistan border. There were oil resources discovered on Kashkadarya-Turkmen border and Turkmenistan claims that the half of them must be shared with Turkmenistan.

[mikel]

dear ladies and gentlemen!
It's only in Turkmenistan, you can observe it anywhere in the world. All nation-states hate other national minorities. We must be united, "one" nation, otherwise ... Example: pls, Jews.

[qadriyat]

man lishna o'sha tukman boshiniyam,yonidilaniyam odam o'rnida ko'rmiman. o'zi umuman butun o'rta osiyoni birlashtirish kere hamma asosiy pozitsiyalarni o'zbeklarga berish kere,mlya uzr qizishib ketdim. bechara bizani halq nuqul indami yurvuradi, o'sh voqealarida ham ,chimkent voqealaridayam.
toshkentda usha turkmanam qozoyam qirg'izam,
bemalol yuradi hech kim g'in demidi ment,yosh bolladan tashqari o'zbek ularnikiga borsa ustidan qotishadi.
chimkentli ortog'im etiberuvdi ozbelani qozola sart derkan o'zichi dunyoda 2ta loh halqni bilsam bittasi qozoq 2si meksikanes

[BOTIR]

Узбеки Кыргызстана
http://www.navigator.kz/oldnavi/articles/war200601d.shtml

http://www.navigator.kz/oldnavi/articles/war080601a.shtml

http://www.navigator.kz/oldnavi/articles/war250701a.shtml

http://www.icb.kg/jun/28_jun/icb_31.htm

[qadriyat]

qadriyat (Apr 25, 2002 16:29):
man lishna o'sha tukman boshiniyam,yonidilaniyam odam o'rnida ko'rmiman. o'zi umuman butun o'rta osiyoni birlashtirish kere hamma asosiy pozitsiyalarni o'zbeklarga berish kere,mlya uzr qizishib ketdim. bechara bizani halq nuqul indami yurvuradi, o'sh voqealarida ham ,chimkent voqealaridayam.
toshkentda usha turkmanam qozoyam qirg'izam,
bemalol yuradi hech kim g'in demidi ment,yosh bolladan tashqari o'zbek ularnikiga borsa ustidan qotishadi.
chimkentli ortog'im etiberuvdi ozbelani qozola sart derkan o'zichi dunyoda 2ta loh halqni bilsam bittasi qozoq 2si meksikanes




wow nimaladi deb yozib tashlamman. unaqa qattiq etibor bermela hammasi bazmi jamshiddan keyin yozilgan.odam kayfda nimala dimidi. man bori bosh orivotti.

[pax_americana]

qadriyat (Apr 25, 2002 16:29):
man lishna o'sha tukman boshiniyam,yonidilaniyam odam o'rnida ko'rmiman. o'zi umuman butun o'rta osiyoni birlashtirish kere hamma asosiy pozitsiyalarni o'zbeklarga berish kere,mlya uzr qizishib ketdim. bechara bizani halq nuqul indami yurvuradi, o'sh voqealarida ham ,chimkent voqealaridayam.
toshkentda usha turkmanam qozoyam qirg'izam,
bemalol yuradi hech kim g'in demidi ment,yosh bolladan tashqari o'zbek ularnikiga borsa ustidan qotishadi.
chimkentli ortog'im etiberuvdi ozbelani qozola sart derkan o'zichi dunyoda 2ta loh halqni bilsam bittasi qozoq 2si meksikanes

So, we have got another peace inspired by Uzbek nationalism. The reason people suffer in Turkmenistan is that same nationalism, but turned against them.

I don't know what happened in Chimkent, but I know something about Osh. There the poor Kyrgyz farmers from villages around were simply jealous of the weathy Uzbeks in the city. So, here the motives were not pureliy nationality-based. Add some class struggle.

IT'S A LIE
That in Uzbekistan the foreigners are welcome. In fact I was very disappointed because some called me "Qozoq" because of my accent in the Uzbek dialect I speak, which is not very much different from the main language.
My Kyrgyz friends living in Osh told about their trip from Osh to Bishkek through Uzbekistan. In general, they were dissappointed. The militia exhorted money. People do not like non-Uzbeks. etc.

I would think he exaggerated, if hadn't seen for myself...

and concerning the "loh"...
That guy, with all his backward mentality is loh himself!

[Freestyler]

Replying Nancy's question:
While typing this thread, I couldn't escape a thought: It's so pity that we are not united as a nation. Like jews we don't support each other, like russians we don't go against eveything as they did when kursk sank. We are too afraid of everything. Were we like that always, or what could possible change our mentality making us so weak???
In fact, my answer is ridiculously simple. There is one crcuial factor only that is going to unite us, and that is by far not the idea of our national identity or great historical past. The thing that unites people in the modern world is democracy and civil liberties. Only then will people start to unite when they know that the state and government they live in gelegates them democratic freedom i.e., the choice to decide for themselves, the choice to live and work whereever they want, the choice to earn decently, the protection by law, and so on...

And again these are things that only the government is responsible for and capable of implementing. The current government has clearly failed to deliver those liberties.

In Brave Heart there is a scene when William Wallace appeals to Stottish nobles claiming that the scotts would win the english army only if the nobles unite the nation to achieve freedom.
He says to the nobles something like that: Promise the freedom to people and you'll be able to unite them and beat the King.

While Uzbekistan may seem to have become free from the Soviet Regime, however, as a nation we've not become so solid as a result. This is only because the demise of the USSR has not provided us with more liberties than we had had under the Soviets. Ask the majority of people whether they would like to live under the old communist regime or be "independent" like we are now, and I'm almost sure that many who had lived under the Soviets will choose the former.

Besides, looking realistically, there still many things that do not unite us as a nation... We've never existed as a nation even before the Soviets came... Which is why the only way that one should expect to unite us around, is through providing with basic human rights, as well as other civil liberties. This is the primary thing, while economic factors are secondary, i.e., dependant on the primary factor.

<Fox>, yes, indeed, Visa regime may have brought some cash into the state budget. But, trust me, that is only at the expense of infringing the rights of people. In a liberal democratic society, a state has no moral right to impose tax (like Visa fee) on the cross-border movement of individuals. Besides, there is very much non-pecuniary (non-monetary) cost to families and individuals who have relatives abroad. Half of my relatives live in our neighbouring state. And because of the Visa regime and all the costs associated with getting it, we haven't seen each other for more than two years. How lame is that? But you probably wouldn't care, would you? Maybe all your relatives live in Uzbekistan.

Visa regime on entry is only deterring the idea of free economic zone in Central Asia, let alone the possibility of united Central Asia!!!

[nados]

Hi Freestyler.

I think that the Central Asia will never be united. It is clear.

Mi ne prizneyem kazahov, kazahi nas, mi ne priznayem kirgisov, kirgisi nas....... Afsuski, bu achchiq haqiqat.

[Pax]

nados (Apr 26, 2002 22:38):
Hi Freestyler.

I think that the Central Asia will never be united. It is clear.

Mi ne prizneyem kazahov, kazahi nas, mi ne priznayem kirgisov, kirgisi nas....... Afsuski, bu achchiq haqiqat.

Nu eto, drujok, smotrya kak ty na veshi smotrish!
U menya est druzya (kyrgyzy) kotorye dumayut kak i ya: hvatit gryzt' drug drugu glotki i iskat soyuznikov na storone.

******

So, Fox, you are right: we've got too much foreign influence in the region. Yet, shouldn't united central asia remain as our ideal?

[Pax]

Freestyler (Apr 26, 2002 10:39):


Besides, looking realistically, there still many things that do not unite us as a nation... We've never existed as a nation even before the Soviets came... Which is why the only way that one should expect to unite us around, is through providing with basic human rights, as well as other civil liberties. This is the primary thing, while economic factors are secondary, i.e., dependant on the primary factor.

What do you mean by "us as a nation"?

If Uzbeks, I am perplexed... Uzbeks are a nation!
If you mean the central asian nations... well, I think the German ever feuding counties, especially their rulers, thougth similarly, until Bismark united them into ONE Germany.
Some more examples: divided Russia. America, before the end of Civil War.

There were united nations in CA
Should I enter the whole list of the CA in history. And, mind you, the Uzbek nation, is quite young, while those states are much older.
<Fox>, yes, indeed, Visa regime may have brought some cash into the state budget. But, trust me, that is only at the expense of infringing the rights of people. In a liberal democratic society, a state has no moral right to impose tax (like Visa fee) on the cross-border movement of individuals.
....
Visa regime on entry is only deterring the idea of free economic zone in Central Asia, let alone the possibility of united Central Asia!!!

Yes, it may seem that Uzbekistan gains money by protecting its borders, but in the long run, it looses, by averting simple people with that isolationistic step.

Then...
Freestyler, have you ever thought that the policy that the Western states (not only western, rather) propagating the free-market idealogy, libertanianism, etc. are hypocritical? They want us open up our borders to them to expand their markets both for (1)their cultural assets created to serve their own goals and for (2) direct tangible goods. They gratiously (!) provide grants in order to facilitate the brain migration.

If they weren't hypocrytical, they would embrace their own creed to the end and would welcome people who want to work in Europe, for instance. Do they do that? No!!!
Moreover, to get a tourist visa for any of the EU states is not an easy task, let alone a visa for permanent residence! And expensive, too. On the other hand a european can go anywhere he wishes, almost for nothing (for them), enough to come and spend some of his euros.

[Freestyler]

2 <Pax>

Apparantly, you're mistaking etnos with nation. Yes of course, our uncestors have lived in the place that now is called Uzbekistan, or Central Asia. And yes, of course they spoke what is now known as uzbek language (well, mine spoke tadjik more actually). But this doesn't imply that we existed as a nation.

Even so, however, I can bring you several reasons why we did not exist as a nation. For one thing, afaik very few people at those times called themselves uzbeks. When asked their nationality by russians, most wouldn't even understand what they meant by that, and would state their place of origin instead, like Buhari, Horazmi, or Fergani. Next, how could we exist as a unified nation, when there were three different khanates, struggling and fighting with each other? The language spoken in one was a dialect of turkic, in another - a dialect of persian, and in the thrid one - the official language was both of them (afaik). Even if you take the uzbek language itself, how many dialects (and I mean dialects, not accents only) can you cull? Doesn't that prove that we're still too young to be called even a homogeneous etnos.

Hence, Uzbeks had NOT existed as a nation before the Soviets came. According to Marxist historical evolutionary approach to defining nations, which is pretty much a mainstream approach even in our days, nations only appeared after (burgeois) capitalistic mode of society dissiminated first in Europe (e.g., after Bourgeois revolutions in Holland, Britain France...), then gradually all over the world. This means that nations, in their social-political sense, could not have existed in feudal societies. And as we all know, Central Asia was pretty much feudal well until the turn of the 20th century.

BTW, you were right about Bismark. In fact Germans were the last biggest etnos in Europe to have become a nation.

This all brings me back to the point I've made ealier:
unifying people into a nation - is a rudimentary phenomenon. Nations in the modern world are formed by people living in one political and geographical area, and irrespective of their etnos, be they white, black, red or yellow, or magenta.

For example, all the citizens of Britain/US, feel themselves a part of a nationa - British/American. The thing that unites them is certainly not their ethnicity, but rather other things that I find no need to mention again...

Think!

[UZBEKKIZI]

pax_americana (Apr 26, 2002 06:16):
[quote]qadriyat (Apr 25, 2002 16:29):
man lishna o'sha tukman boshiniyam,yonidilaniyam odam o'rnida ko'rmiman. o'zi umuman butun o'rta osiyoni birlashtirish kere hamma asosiy pozitsiyalarni o'zbeklarga berish kere,mlya uzr qizishib ketdim. bechara bizani halq nuqul indami yurvuradi, o'sh voqealarida ham ,chimkent voqealaridayam.
toshkentda usha turkmanam qozoyam qirg'izam,
bemalol yuradi hech kim g'in demidi ment,yosh bolladan tashqari o'zbek ularnikiga borsa ustidan qotishadi.
chimkentli ortog'im etiberuvdi ozbelani qozola sart derkan o'zichi dunyoda 2ta loh halqni bilsam bittasi qozoq 2si meksikanes


"qadriyat" (garchad bu ism bu odam gaplariga yarashmasa-da),

avvalo, qozoqlar sizni (o'zbeklarni) "sart" deb "xaqoratlasa", siz ham ularga bir nima deb qaytarishingiz shartmi? (Quronda yomonlik qilganlarga yaxshilik bilan qaytar deyilgan). ikkinchidan, sart yomon so'z emas va bo'lmagan ham ("Boburnoma"da Bobur o'zbek xalqini sart deb atagan...va qadimda o'zbeklar ham o'zlarini sartlar deb atashgan)...bu rus "og'alarimiz"ning ta'siridir. qadimda o'zbek qozoq, qirg'iz degan "bo'lak xalqlar" bo'lmagan va ular bir-birlarini hurmat qilishgan.
sizga qozoqlar yoqmasa, fikringizni ichingizda saqlab qo'yavering, chunki sizdan tashqari boshqa o'zbeklarning hammasi ham sizday fikrda emaslar.


ps. qipshoq o'zbeklar qaerdan kelganligini ham hech unutmang.


rahmat,
--d.

[ishing bomasin]

hehe, butun Markaziy Osiyo millatlari Uzbeklar boshchiligida birlashingiz deyish kere edi....

Kazakistan bu sanlarga Shaygu boshchiligidagi Rossia emas, lol, bu ohirgi chikkan politicheskiy prikol ekan, skay.

Hamma yokni ozi uzbeklashtirish kere, butun Markaziy Osiyoni bosvolishimiza kerak, yagona hudud tashkil qilish kerak, Rossiadagi maymunlarga korsatib koyish kere, sekin sekin Chechnyani, keyin Rossiyani ham tiz choktirishimiza kere bilimimiza, aqlimimiza, qadriyatimiza, madaniyatimiza va boshqa olamni lol qoldioiradigan narsalarimiza bilan.

uzbek Jirinevskiysi.

[o'zbeg bola]

UZBEKKIZI (Apr 29, 2002 12:28 ):

(Quronda yomonlik qilganlarga yaxshilik bilan qaytar deyilgan).
Quronni bunga nima alokasi bor ? :) Quroni shaxsiy maqsad asosida istalgancha talqin qilinishi mumkin odamlarning soddaligidan foydalanib. Misol uchun lagerda peoner vozhatiy asal bilan tuhumni aralashtirib eb bumidi, yoki kechkurun choch ob bumidi quronda etilgan derdi. Shuning uchun diniy narsadan boshqalarning soddaligidan foydalanib oz fikrini tug'riligini isbotlash uchun foydalanish to'g'ri emas. Bunday qilinadigan bo'lsa aytish mumkin quronda Alqasos ul minal haq deyilgan deb (bu arabcha eshitiladi, sodda odamga yana kuchlirok tasir qilishi mumkin :)).

... sart yomon so'z emas va bo'lmagan ham ("Boburnoma"da Bobur o'zbek xalqini sart deb atagan...va qadimda o'zbeklar ham o'zlarini sartlar deb atashgan)...bu rus "og'alarimiz"ning ta'siridir.

Bobirnomani o'qigan odam, Bobirshoh "O'zbek" deganda nimani nazarda tutganini aniq bilishi mumkin - ya'ni Dashti-Qipchoqdan kelgan ko'chmanchilar, Shayboniyxon nazarda tutiladi. Bobir o'zini esa turkiy deb bilgan.

Rus "og'alar" amalda o'rta osiyada millatlarning shakllanish jarayonini tezlashtirgan. Xalkni "o'zbek" deb nomlanishiga sabab - Shayboniyhondan so'ng Markaziy Osiyoni boshqarib kelgan xon amirlar o'zbek sulolalaridanligi, va mahalliy xalkni shunga yarasha nomlanishidir.

Qo'shni xalklar hozirgi O'zbek xalkini "sart" deb atagani rost, lekin hurmat bilan emas ;)

[stud]

Afandi (Apr 24, 2002 07:05):

... here, we can blaim Turkmen President and his nationalist policies. But there is some part of blame on ourselves.

Firstly we don't have any laws which would provide some protection for people of our nationality abroad. We don't have any provisions for them to be able to benefit from our Education system or whatsoever. People, our own people, have to come up with various solutions to help other Uzbeks.


I strongly believe that we have to protect out national interests wherever possible, that is without prejudice to other people.

below is the article:

Turkmenistan: Uzbek Blues


the problem is here in legal definition of "Uzbeks". Uzbekistan can not provide protection for "people of our nationality abroad", since it lacks a legal basis for that.
The article deals with a case uzbek minority in Turkmenistan, who are legally citizens of Turkmenistan. That means they should solve their problems within laws of their country.

I am not quiete sure about definition of "uzbek natioality" in uzbek legislaton. AFAIK as "people of uzbek nationality" could be qualified, only those who posess uzbek passport. Only citizens of Uzbekistan enjoy protection of the Republic of Uzbekistan.

In Germany the basic law provides for definitaion of "Deutcher" (Art.116):

(1) Unless otherwise provided by law, a German within the meaning of this Basic Law is a person who possesses German citizenship who has been admitted to the territory of the German Reich, as it existed on December 31, 1937, as a refugee or expellee of German stock or as the spouse or descendant of such person.
(2) Former German citizens who between January 30, 1933 and May 8 1945, were deprived of their citizenship for political, racial or religious reasons, and their descendants, shall be re- granted German citizenship on application. They are considered as not having been deprived of their German citizenship if they have established their domicile in Germany after May 8, 1945 and have not expressed a contrary intention.
--

Here activity of NGOs could help with protection of cultural rights of uzbek minority in Turkmenistan.

Afandi's proposal - adoption of legal acts protecting uzbek nationals abroad sounds good, but enforcement od such laws could be problematic for Uzbekistan at present time.

[UZBEKKIZI]

ishing bomasin (Apr 29, 2002 12:41):
hehe, butun Markaziy Osiyo millatlari Uzbeklar boshchiligida birlashingiz deyish kere edi....

Kazakistan bu sanlarga Shaygu boshchiligidagi Rossia emas, lol, bu ohirgi chikkan politicheskiy prikol ekan, skay.

Hamma yokni ozi uzbeklashtirish kere, butun Markaziy Osiyoni bosvolishimiza kerak, yagona hudud tashkil qilish kerak, Rossiadagi maymunlarga korsatib koyish kere, sekin sekin Chechnyani, keyin Rossiyani ham tiz choktirishimiza kere bilimimiza, aqlimimiza, qadriyatimiza, madaniyatimiza va boshqa olamni lol qoldioiradigan narsalarimiza bilan.

uzbek Jirinevskiysi.



bo'za ichib yozganmisiz? uzr... :]

[UZBEKKIZI]

o'zbeg bola (Apr 29, 2002 14:48):

(Quronda yomonlik qilganlarga yaxshilik bilan qaytar deyilgan).
Quronni bunga nima alokasi bor ? :)
Quroni shaxsiy maqsad asosida istalgancha talqin qilinishi mumkin odamlarning soddaligidan foydalanib.
____________________________________________

Nima deyayotganingizni o'zingiz yaxshi tushunayapsizmi? Quronning bu yerga "aloqasi" O'zbeklarning musulmon bo'lganligidadir. Men bu yerda dinni (!) targ'ibot qilayotganim yo'q. Gaplaringizni diqqat bilan yozsangiz.
Undan tashqari, Islom dini necha asrlardan beri (hohlang, hohlamang) hayotimiz tarzi bo'lib keladi. Nima qilsak ham har bir ishimizda yoki tushunchamizda Islom dinining ta'siri bor... Agar Injildan misol keltirganimda nima der edingiz?
................
Qurondan misol keltirishimning sababi ham aniqroq bo'lib qolgandir endi? Javobingiz salbiy bo'lsa, yozing yana javob berishga harakat qilaman.
____________________________________________
"Misol uchun lagerda peoner vozhatiy asal bilan tuhumni aralashtirib eb bumidi, yoki kechkurun choch ob bumidi quronda etilgan derdi. Shuning uchun diniy narsadan boshqalarning soddaligidan foydalanib oz fikrini tug'riligini isbotlash uchun foydalanish to'g'ri emas."
____________________________________________
har bir inson o'z dinini yaxshi bilsa unga boshqa odamning "tushuntirish"lari kerak bo'lmaydi. "sodda" odamlar deganingizda nimani nazarda tutgansiz?? nodonlarmi (ya'ni savodi yo'q hamma narsaga ishonib ketaveradiganlarmi) yoki o'qimishli (odmi/kamtarin...) odamlarnimi?
"pioner vojatiy"larning ichidan to'qib chiqarganlarini eshitib o'tirganlarda ham aql bordir? Sizga "tomdan tashla, xudo shunday degan" desa (diningizni yaxshi bilsangiz) O'YLAMASDAN tashlab yuborar edingizmi? "Qayerda shunday deb yozilgan ekan?" deb so'rar edingiz, shundaymi? Ha, albatta. Chunki, xudo bunday deb aytmaganligini juda yaxshi bilgan bo'lar edingiz...
_________________________________________
"Bunday qilinadigan bo'lsa aytish mumkin quronda Alqasos ul minal haq deyilgan deb (bu arabcha eshitiladi, sodda odamga yana kuchlirok tasir qilishi mumkin :))."
___________________________________________
bu yerda "sodda" degan so'zning o'rniga "befahm"/"befarosat" deyilsa, mazmunga ko'proq to'g'ri kelardi... Yana bir bor ta'kidlayman: agar farosatli/o'qimishli odamga:" Alqasos...." desangiz, aminmanki, sizdan "buning ma'nosi nima?" deb so'ragan bo'lar edi.
...Ko'p sodda odamlarni ko'rganman, lekin ular hamma narsaga ham ishonib ketadiganlardan emas edilar.
____________________________________________
"Rus "og'alar" amalda o'rta osiyada millatlarning shakllanish jarayonini tezlashtirgan. Xalkni "o'zbek" deb nomlanishiga sabab - Shayboniyhondan so'ng Markaziy Osiyoni boshqarib kelgan xon amirlar o'zbek sulolalaridanligi, va mahalliy xalkni shunga yarasha nomlanishidir."
___________________________________________
Markaziy Osiyoda "millatlar" bo'lmagan, aksincha yagona turkiy xalq bo'lgan. Ular turli qabilalarga bo'linganlar. O'zbek xalqining nomi ham, ya'ni O'zbek hozirgi O'zbekiston hududiga kirib kelgan qipchoqlardan bo'lmish O'zbekxonning (1312-1340) nomidan olingan...

quyidagi adresdan ham o'zbeklar haqida anchagina ma'lumot olishingiz mumkin:
http://www.ukans.edu/~ibetext/texts/paksoy-5/


rahmat,
--d.

[cute]

Quronni nima aloqasi bor deyilganda tushunishimcha, tuzgan jumlangizni ichida aynan shu qism uncha mos tushmagan.

Albatta islom dini necha yillardan beri hayotimiz tarzi bo'lib kelgan, lekin o'sha pioner vojatiyning "hatosi" ham halqimizning katta qismining hayot tarziga kiradi.

Keyin

Sizga "tomdan tashla, xudo shunday degan" desa (diningizni yaxshi bilsangiz) O'YLAMASDAN tashlab yuborar edingizmi?

Pioner lagerga borganning yoshi necha bo'ladi? Dinni yahshi bilishga esa bu yoshda...

"Qayerda shunday deb yozilgan ekan?" deb so'rar edingiz, shundaymi? Ha, albatta. Chunki, xudo bunday deb aytmaganligini juda yaxshi bilgan bo'lar edingiz...

Siz qayerdan hudo bir narsa deganini aniq bilasiz? Umuman Islomda buyurilgani analyse qilinmaydi. "qayerda shunday yozilgan" degan savolga esa pioner vojatiy Qur'onda deb javob beradi.

Keyin Qur'onda "Yomonlikka yahshilik bilan qaytar" deyilganini qattiq va qattiq shubha qilaman. Ko'rib turibsizki pioner vojatiyning "hatosini" qilish juda ham oson :)

Undan keyin topicdan chiqib ketayapmiz.

I like what stud had suggested, and if we believe his arguments, government can not do anything. As we more go into the nations thing more and more nationalistic feelings will emerge. Central Asia will never be one political force or country, unless one of the countries has total control and dominance.

Many bullshit documents have to be signed in order to be able to try to solve the problem. But as we know relations between two presidents is not good, so I don't see that happening. At the end of the day Niyazov is a known idiot. :)

[Pax]

Cute (Apr 29, 2002 21:26):

I like what stud had suggested, and if we believe his arguments, government can not do anything. As we more go into the nations thing more and more nationalistic feelings will emerge. Central Asia will never be one political force or country, unless one of the countries has total control and dominance.

Many bullshit documents have to be signed in order to be able to try to solve the problem. But as we know relations between two presidents is not good, so I don't see that happening. At the end of the day Niyazov is a known idiot. :)

I disagree...

You say certainly there should be a dominant state that would unify the region by force. But look at Europe, is there anyone that forces them to unite? NO!!!
Simply, there are aware of the fact that TOGETHERNESS is the best tool to fend for common interests.

And Uzbekkizi is right in that there were turkic tribes and confederations of tribes not nations. The ethnonym "uzbek" is quite a young one.

[Pax]

Cute (Apr 29, 2002 21:26):

I like what stud had suggested, and if we believe his arguments, government can not do anything. As we more go into the nations thing more and more nationalistic feelings will emerge. Central Asia will never be one political force or country, unless one of the countries has total control and dominance.

Many bullshit documents have to be signed in order to be able to try to solve the problem. But as we know relations between two presidents is not good, so I don't see that happening. At the end of the day Niyazov is a known idiot. :)

I disagree...

You say certainly there should be a dominant state that would unify the region by force. But look at Europe, is there anyone that forces them to unite? NO!!!
Simply, there are aware of the fact that TOGETHERNESS is the best tool to fend for common interests.

And Uzbekkizi is right in that there were turkic tribes and confederations of tribes not nations. The ethnonym "uzbek" is quite a young one.

[Pax]

Cute (Apr 29, 2002 21:26):

I like what stud had suggested, and if we believe his arguments, government can not do anything. As we more go into the nations thing more and more nationalistic feelings will emerge. Central Asia will never be one political force or country, unless one of the countries has total control and dominance.

Many bullshit documents have to be signed in order to be able to try to solve the problem. But as we know relations between two presidents is not good, so I don't see that happening. At the end of the day Niyazov is a known idiot. :)

I disagree...

You say certainly there should be a dominant state that would unify the region by force. But look at Europe, is there anyone that forces them to unite? NO!!!
Simply, there are aware of the fact that TOGETHERNESS is the best tool to fend for common interests.

And Uzbekkizi is right in that there were turkic tribes and confederations of tribes not nations. The ethnonym "uzbek" is quite a young one.

[o'zbeg bola]

UZBEKKIZI (Apr 29, 2002 20:23):
o'zbeg bola (Apr 29, 2002 14:48 ):

Quronni bunga nima alokasi bor ? :)
Quroni shaxsiy maqsad asosida istalgancha talqin qilinishi mumkin odamlarning soddaligidan foydalanib.
____________________________________________

Nima deyayotganingizni o'zingiz yaxshi tushunayapsizmi? Quronning bu yerga "aloqasi" O'zbeklarning musulmon bo'lganligidadir. Men bu yerda dinni (!) targ'ibot qilayotganim yo'q. Gaplaringizni diqqat bilan yozsangiz.

Undan tashqari, Islom dini necha asrlardan beri (hohlang, hohlamang) hayotimiz tarzi bo'lib keladi. Nima qilsak ham har bir ishimizda yoki tushunchamizda Islom dinining ta'siri bor... Agar Injildan misol keltirganimda nima der edingiz?
................
Qurondan misol keltirishimning sababi ham aniqroq bo'lib qolgandir endi? Javobingiz salbiy bo'lsa, yozing yana javob berishga harakat qilaman.

Quronda misol keltirishdan avval uni yaxshi o'qib tushunish kerak. Qurondan odam istalgancha foydalanishi mumkin talqin etilish asosida. Misol uchun bombali musulmon o'zini 10 lab begunoh musulmno bo'lmagan odamlar bilan portlatishini quron bo'yicha to'gri deb topadiganlar odamlar ham mavjud, ular uchun kofir, islom dushmanlarini o'ldirish va bu yo'lda shahid bo'lish katta baxt.

Umumiy tarzda o'z fikrini isbotlash uchun islom mutaxassisi bo'lmagan odamning quronda u deyilgan, quronda bu deyilgan deb yozishi to'g'ri emas. Bunday qilinadigan bo'lsa hamma quronni peshlab o'ziga ma'qul gaplarni bemalol aytishi mumkin.

Misol uchun siz yozganingizdek aytish mumkin, quronda aytilgan ayollar erkaklarga bo'ysunishi lozim, erkaklar bir nima desa hob deyishi kerak, ayol kishi erkak kishi bilan ko'p aqllilik qilib bahslashishi kerak emas deb. :)


oldingi yozganingizda "Bobur O'zbek xalkini sart deb atagan" deb yozgan edingiz, qani bunga asos? hech bo'lmasa bu bilan boshqa narsa aytilmoqchi edi, yoki yanglishilibdi deyilsa yaxshi bo'lardi :D

ruslar kelishidan oldin markaziy osiyoda millatlar bo'lmagan, yagona turkiy millat bo'lgan deyilishi juda umumiydir. Millat tushunchasi (umumiy madaniyat(culture), til, din, hudud va hkz.) nimani anglatishi haqida qiziqib ko'rish kerak. Ruslar kelishdan avval ham ushbu turli millatlar mavjud bo'lgan, turkiy (ko'chmanchilar tilida 'sart'), tojik, turkman, qipchoq, qyrg'iz, qozoq va hkz. Ularning millat sifatida to'liq shakllanishiga ruslar (aniqroq bo'ladigan bo'lsa sovet-kommunistlar) o'z hissasalarini qo'shishgan. Misol uchun qozoq va qirgyzlarning ko'chmanchilikdan madaniy hayotga majburiy o'tkazilishi va ularning madaniylashtirilishi, ular uchun maktab, ilmiy muassasalar qurilishi va hkz.

Ushbu jarayonning o'ziga yarasha ijobiy na salbiy tomonlari bor.

ijobiysi: xar bir millat o'zligi anglab etishiga, o'z madaniyatini rivojlantirishi uchun imkoniyatga ega bolishi.

salbiysi: tarixan odatda 1 yaxlitlikni tashkil etgan regionning turli millatlarga bo'linishi va hududiy muammolarning vujudga kelishidir. Hozirgi kun kamchilikni tashkil etuvchi millatlar bilan bog'liq problemalar qisman Sovet davridagi sun'iy hududiy bo'linishi oqibatlari.

rahmat,

:P ;) 8)

[Pax]

Cute (Apr 29, 2002 21:26):
Albatta islom dini necha yillardan beri hayotimiz tarzi bo'lib kelgan, lekin o'sha pioner vojatiyning "hatosi" ham halqimizning katta qismining hayot tarziga kiradi.

1) Pioner lagerga borganning yoshi necha bo'ladi? Dinni yahshi bilishga esa bu yoshda...

Religiya eto te ne v lager' hodit. Religiyi uchatsya mojno skazat' vsyu jizn'.


2) Siz qayerdan hudo bir narsa deganini aniq bilasiz?
V musul'masnkoy tradicii est' kniga kotoraya nazyvaetsya Koran, kotoraya byla snizoydena Magometu kak rukovoditel'stvo v etoy jizni. Nu a na skol'ko i na skol'ko on podlennen predostav' obsjudat' [B]specialistam: istorikam, arheologam i vostokovedam.
Zamechu, odnako, chto do sih por nikto ne smog pridrat'sya k dosotovernosti etoy knigi



3) Umuman Islomda buyurilgani analyse qilinmaydi.
Vah-vah-vah!!!:)
A chem po Vashemu zanimalis Al-Buhari, Muslim, Abu Hanifa, Shafi?

Oni otdali vsyu svoyu jizn' na to chtob dovesti do nas chto je deystvitel'no skazal etot chelovek?

A kto byli po religii takie lyudi kak Beruni, Ibn Sina, Farabi? Ibn Rushd? Esli ty hot' nemnogo znakom s istoreiey sovremennoy nauki to eti imena doljny byt' tebe izvestny.
Esli trudno, mogu podskazat' :) eti uchenye svoimi trudami vnesli Renessans v Evropu!

4) "qayerda shunday yozilgan" degan savolga esa pioner vojatiy Qur'onda deb javob beradi.
Nu i gde je v Korane? Ne bud'te goloslovny, i ne privedite primery.


5) Keyin Qur'onda "Yomonlikka yahshilik bilan qaytar" deyilganini qattiq va qattiq shubha qilaman. Ko'rib turibsizki pioner vojatiyning "hatosini" qilish juda ham oson :)
Somnevat'sya eto konechno vashe pravo. No, dumayu, bylo by ochen' neoploho zavodit' rech' o teh veshah, o kotoryh imeesh prestavlenie.
Have some background before you ever speak!


WHOEVER CLOSES HIS EYES BRINGS NIGHT TO HIMSELF ONLY!

[cute]

Pax-Americana (Apr 30, 2002 06:07):


Religiya eto te ne v lager' hodit. Religiyi uchatsya mojno skazat' vsyu jizn'.



Imenno, vsyu jizn'. Primer lagera v tom chto vojatiy ne znayet Koran, i utverjdayet chto-to. I ya eto prosto tak skazal, chto "Alloh yomonga yahshilik qaytargin degan" ne sovsem korrektnoye virajeniye.

2) Siz qayerdan hudo bir narsa deganini aniq bilasiz?

V musul'masnkoy tradicii est' kniga kotoraya nazyvaetsya Koran, kotoraya byla snizoydena Magometu kak rukovoditel'stvo v etoy jizni. Nu a na skol'ko

DA nu, ti otmenniyi znaniya pokazivayesh. A ya chto obratnoye govoril. Sut' moih slov v tom chto neznaya Koran chto-to utverjdat ne ochen to pravilno. A magometa znayem, i sut' Korana toje.

Zamechu, odnako, chto do sih por nikto ne smog pridrat'sya k dosotovernosti etoy knigi



3) Umuman Islomda buyurilgani analyse qilinmaydi.

Vah-vah-vah!!!:)
A chem po Vashemu zanimalis [B]Al-Buhari, Muslim, Abu Hanifa, Shafi?

Eto ne analyse, a ucheniya. Vse visheskazanniyi ucheniyi nikogda ne somnevalis chto Koran prav. Tak chto "To" and "against" tut bilo ne prichem. Ya hot' i ne znatok Islama i Korana, no znayu chto doubting existance of Allah and Islam itself schitayetsya "shirk".
Otsyuda i vihodit chto v Islame ne obsujdayetsya to chto skazano Allahom.

otdali vsyu svoyu jizn' na to chtob dovesti do nas chto je deystvitel'no skazal etot chelovek?

:). Pliy Majlsi napomnil. LOL

a kto byli po religii takie lyudi kak Beruni, Ibn Sina, Farabi? Ibn Rushd? Esli ty hot' nemnogo znakom s istoreiey sovremennoy nauki to eti imena doljny byt' tebe izvestny.

Da oni moi sosedi mlin. LOL

Esli trudno, mogu podskazat' :) eti uchenye svoimi trudami vnesli Renessans v Evropu!


Vahaha, nu i nu, istorik vpryam. :)

4) "qayerda shunday yozilgan" degan savolga esa pioner vojatiy Qur'onda deb javob beradi.
Nu i gde je v Korane? Ne bud'te goloslovny, i ne privedite primery.

Ya eto i govoryu gde? Ya ne opravdivayu vojatogo, priznaysya u tebya s uzbekskim ne ochen' horoshi dela.
Ya osujdayu teh kotoriyi te je "oshibki" vojatogo povtoryayut. Ti skaji-ka gde v Korane napisano chto "Yomonlikka yahshilik bilan qaytar". Ponimayesh chto ya imel vvidu to je samoye chto ti i skazal.


5) Keyin Qur'onda "Yomonlikka yahshilik bilan qaytar" deyilganini qattiq va qattiq shubha qilaman. Ko'rib turibsizki pioner vojatiyning "hatosini" qilish juda ham oson :)
Somnevat'sya eto konechno vashe pravoNo, dumayu, bylo by ochen' neoploho zavodit' rech' o teh veshah, o kotoryh imeesh prestavlenie.

Ya tebe govoryu, takogo v Korane netu (Yomonlikka yahshilik qaytar) (Yesli i yest' v ne takom ponimanii), ya ne somnevayus o Korane, a somnevayus v tom chto kto-to pravdu utverjdayet, ispolzuya Koran. Ti perevodchioka sebe naydi.

Have some background before you ever speak!

Spustis Pax na zemlyu. Letayesh ti v oblakah. I horoshiy sovet tebe - uzbekskiy viuchi.

Ili ne otvechay na posti katoriyi na uzbekskom.

WHOEVER CLOSES HIS EYES BRINGS NIGHT TO HIMSELF ONLY!

Udachi.

[cute]

[quote]Pax-Americana (Apr 30, 2002 05:00):
[

I disagree...

You say certainly there should be a dominant state that would unify the region by force. But look at Europe, is there anyone that forces them to unite? NO!!!
Simply, there are aware of the fact that TOGETHERNESS is the best tool to fend for common interests.

Well Europe, you can't compare Europe to Central Asia, in order to achieve Europes situation which allowed the integration, we need to change much much more.

They are aware of togetherness, :)

Yes they are aware, but do you think we will be aware of togetherness. And if we will be aware is this will be only contribution to achive what Europe did.

Central Asian states all trying to dominate the region, some of them don't like each other at all. People are becoming more nationalists, border problems not solved. These all will be against our "awareness".

And last point there are forces out there that will not let us to be one.

Take care

[UZBEKKIZI]

[quote]o'zbeg bola (Apr 29, 2002 14:48 ):

"Quronda misol keltirishdan avval uni yaxshi o'qib tushunish kerak. Qurondan odam istalgancha foydalanishi mumkin talqin etilish asosida. Misol uchun bombali musulmon o'zini 10 lab begunoh musulmno bo'lmagan odamlar bilan portlatishini quron bo'yicha to'gri deb topadiganlar odamlar ham mavjud, ular uchun kofir, islom dushmanlarini o'ldirish va bu yo'lda shahid bo'lish katta baxt."
____________________________________________

savol yana o'sha ishonib ketaveradigan "sodda" odamlarga borib taqaladi... (Maqsadingiz, mening gaplarimga javob qaytarishda emas, to'g'ri fikr yuritish bo'lsin.) Yuqoridagi misollaringizni yanadan o'ylab mulohaza qilib ko'rsangiz.
____________________________________________
"Umumiy tarzda o'z fikrini isbotlash uchun islom mutaxassisi bo'lmagan odamning quronda u deyilgan, quronda bu deyilgan deb yozishi to'g'ri emas. Bunday qilinadigan bo'lsa hamma quronni peshlab o'ziga ma'qul gaplarni bemalol aytishi mumkin."
____________________________________________
siz meni quronni qanchalik bilishim yoki bilmasligim haqida bilmasdan turib o'zingiz (!) hech narsa demasangiz. men mutaxassis emasman va bo'lmayman ham, lekin aminmanki, sizdan ko'ra dinimni juda yaxshi bilaman va siz bilan bunday mayda gaplar ustida tortishib ham o'tirmayman.
____________________________________________

"Misol uchun siz yozganingizdek aytish mumkin, quronda aytilgan ayollar erkaklarga bo'ysunishi lozim, erkaklar bir nima desa hob deyishi kerak, ayol kishi erkak kishi bilan ko'p aqllilik qilib bahslashishi kerak emas deb. :)"
_____________________________________________

xo'sh? bu bilan nima demoqchi bo'ldingiz?
siz ishonishingiz mumkin, lekin men emas.

_____________________________________________
"oldingi yozganingizda "Bobur O'zbek xalkini sart deb atagan" deb yozgan edingiz, qani bunga asos?"
_____________________________________________

"Boburnoma"ni o'qiganmisiz? O'qib koring juda yaxshi kitob, ko'p savollaringizga javob to'pasiz...
_____________________________________________
"hech bo'lmasa bu bilan boshqa narsa aytilmoqchi edi, yoki yanglishilibdi deyilsa yaxshi bo'lardi :D"
_____________________________________________

??????? (hafa bo'lmang-kuya lekin, ba'zi gaplaringiz meni kulishga majbur etmoqda.)
_____________________________________________
"ruslar kelishidan oldin markaziy osiyoda millatlar bo'lmagan, yagona turkiy millat bo'lgan deyilishi juda umumiydir."
_____________________________________________

asoslar, manbalar?
_____________________________________________

"Millat tushunchasi (umumiy madaniyat(culture), til, din, hudud va hkz.) nimani anglatishi haqida qiziqib ko'rish kerak. Ruslar kelishdan avval ham ushbu turli millatlar mavjud bo'lgan, turkiy (ko'chmanchilar tilida 'sart'), tojik, turkman, qipchoq, qyrg'iz, qozoq va hkz. Ularning millat sifatida to'liq shakllanishiga ruslar (aniqroq bo'ladigan bo'lsa sovet-kommunistlar) o'z hissasalarini qo'shishgan."
_____________________________________________
bu fikringizga aslo aslo qo'shila olmayman. ruslar siz aytib o'tgan xalqlarni tarqoqlashtirish maqsadida shunday qilganlar. tojiklarga kelsak, ular turkiy xalqlarga kirmaydi.
_____________________________________________
"Misol uchun qozoq va qirgyzlarning ko'chmanchilikdan madaniy hayotga majburiy o'tkazilishi va ularning madaniylashtirilishi, ular uchun maktab, ilmiy muassasalar qurilishi va hkz."
_____________________________________________
ana shu "madaniylashtirish", "maktab..." qurib berishlari nimalar evaziga bo'lgan edi? ana o'sha "madaniylashtirish lar..." o'z xalqingiz ham qon qusib qaytarganidan xabaringiz yo'qmi??
_____________________________________________
"ijobiysi: xar bir millat o'zligi anglab etishiga, o'z madaniyatini rivojlantirishi uchun imkoniyatga ega bolishi.

salbiysi: tarixan odatda 1 yaxlitlikni tashkil etgan regionning turli millatlarga bo'linishi va hududiy muammolarning vujudga kelishidir. Hozirgi kun kamchilikni tashkil etuvchi millatlar bilan bog'liq problemalar qisman Sovet davridagi sun'iy hududiy bo'linishi oqibatlari."
______________________________________________
agar ruslar bostirib kelmaganda edi, oz'bekiston, qozog'iston, qirg'iziston... degan nomlar bo'lmas edi, yagona turkiston bo'lishi mumkin edi. nima bo'lganda ham bu xalqlar bir-birlarini "boshqa millat" deb tushunmagan bo'larmidilar?
ruslar kelmasa ham biz rivojlanar edik, maktablarga ega bo'lar edik (1937 yilda qatag'onga uchragan ziyolilarimiz bo'lgan jadidchilarni eslang). qozoqlar ham qirg'izlar ham
"ilmiy muassasalar"ga ega bo'lar edilar.


rahmat,
--d

[o'zbeg bola]

UZBEKKIZI (Apr 30, 2002 19:20):

siz meni quronni qanchalik bilishim yoki bilmasligim haqida bilmasdan turib o'zingiz (!) hech narsa demasangiz. men mutaxassis emasman va bo'lmayman ham, lekin aminmanki, sizdan ko'ra dinimni juda yaxshi bilaman va siz bilan bunday mayda gaplar ustida tortishib ham o'tirmayman.

Din bu nozik mavzu. Mutahassis bo'lmay turib "Quron uni buyuradi, quron buni buyuradi" deyish orqali diniy tomondan gunohkor bo'lib qolish mumkin (alloh aytmagan gapni Quronda aytilgan deb). Aytiladigan gapga to'la ishonch bo'lmasa undan foydalnmaganlik ma'qul.

Keyin murojaat qilinayotgan odamning dindor-dindormas, musulmon-musulmonmasligini bilmay turib quron asosida gap uqtirish to'g'ri emas :)



"oldingi yozganingizda "Bobur O'zbek xalkini sart deb atagan" deb yozgan edingiz, qani bunga asos?"
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"Boburnoma"ni o'qiganmisiz? O'qib koring juda yaxshi kitob, ko'p savollaringizga javob to'pasiz...


ushbu savolni kishi avval o'z-o'ziga berib ko'rsa yomon bo'lmasdi.

e'tiboringiz uchun mirzo Bobir kimni o'zbek va kimni "sart" degani haqida qiziq ma'lumot:

http://www.ferghana.ru/ancient/babur.html

o'qib chiqib bemalol kulaverish mumkin ;)



"Millat tushunchasi (umumiy madaniyat(culture), til, din, hudud va hkz.) nimani anglatishi haqida qiziqib ko'rish kerak. Ruslar kelishdan avval ham ushbu turli millatlar mavjud bo'lgan, turkiy (ko'chmanchilar tilida 'sart'), tojik, turkman, qipchoq, qyrg'iz, qozoq va hkz. Ularning millat sifatida to'liq shakllanishiga ruslar (aniqroq bo'ladigan bo'lsa sovet-kommunistlar) o'z hissasalarini qo'shishgan."
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bu fikringizga aslo aslo qo'shila olmayman. ruslar siz aytib o'tgan xalqlarni tarqoqlashtirish maqsadida shunday qilganlar. tojiklarga kelsak, ular turkiy xalqlarga kirmaydi.

madaniy jihatdan (urf-odat) olib qaralsa O'zbek-tojiklar mintaqadagi eng yaqin khalklar. Tojik tili turkiy bo'lmasa ham so'z lug'ati bo'yicha O'zbek tili lug'ati bilan juda yaqin, so'zlarni talaffuz qilinishi bir hil. Ushbu millatlarning tarixi asoslarida ko'p umumiylik bor, qadimgi sug'diyona aholisining turklar va forsiylarlar bilan aralashmasi O'zbek va Tojik millatlarining shakllanishida olib kelgan, ya'ni qisman bu xalklarda umumiy ota-bobolar mavjud.

Bu kabi o'hshashlik, umumiylikni qozoq-qyrg'yzlarga nisabatan ishlatib bo'lmaydi.
Misol uchun, men tojik bo'lmasam ham qozoqcha yoki gyrg'yzcadan ko'ra tojikchada nima deyilayotgani haqida yaxshirok tushuncha qila olaman. Toshkentda qozoqlarning Xabar degan ko'rsatuvini ko'rish mumkin edi, qozoqchani eshitsangiz nuqul "jett'i-jett'i" - umuman gaprish uslubi, ko'rinishi mo'gullarnikini eslatadi, ularning millat sifatida o'zbeklarga qanchalik yaqinligi shahsan men uchun shubhalik.

"... qozoq va qirgyzlarning ko'chmanchilikdan madaniy hayotga majburiy o'tkazilishi va ularning madaniylashtirilishi, ular uchun maktab, ilmiy muassasalar qurilishi va hkz."
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ana shu "madaniylashtirish", "maktab..." qurib berishlari nimalar evaziga bo'lgan edi? ana o'sha "madaniylashtirish lar..." o'z xalqingiz ham qon qusib qaytarganidan xabaringiz yo'qmi??

tarihni chuqur o'rganib qaralsa sovetlarning ko'chmanchi khalklarni madaniylashtirishdagi alohida o'rnini rad etib bo'lmaydi. Umuman uyi yo'k, doimo bir joydan boshqa joyga ko'chib yuradigan ko'chmanchilarga shaharlar, madaniyat o'choqlari - maktab, universitet va hkz. yaratilganligini inkor etish qiyin.

Sovetlarning madaniyat, ilm-fan va hayotning boshqa tarmoqlariga qilgan ijobiy ta'siri (siyosiy propoganda bilan to'la bo'lsa ham) O'zbekistonga ham tegishli. Savodsizlikni tugatilishi, kyz-ayollar huquqini ta'minlanishi, sog'liqni saqlash tizimini rivjlantirish, zamonaviy ilm dargohlarini ochilihi va hkz. lar bunga misol.

Jumladan ayollarning paranjisiz ko'chada yura olish, ijtimoiy hayotda erkaklar bilan tengma-teng holda o'qish-ishlash huquqlari sovet.larning olib borgan siyosati natijalari ekanligini ayniqsa "UZBEKKIZI"(yozilish bo'yicha o'ruscha:))lari qadrlashlari lozim (mantuiqan olib qaralsa).

no offence :)

[muk14]

Salom

Uzur sizlarning qiziqon suhbatlaring o'rtasiga tushaman.

Odamlar, har birlaringni fikrlaring to'g'ri. Bu suhbat menga greklarni filasofiyasini bir muncha eslatdi. Eshitishimcha greklar ozlari orasida eshakning nechta tishi borligini baxslashar ekan. Yonida eshak turgan bo'lsa ham, ular borib usha eshakni tishini sanab baxslariga yakun yasashni o'rniga o'z aro baxslashish haqiqatga olib kelishiga ishonar ekanlar. Yani bu holatda silar bir birlaringni bilmasdan turib haqoratlashni afzal ko'rayotirsizlar.

Prosta predlozheniye sifatida birinchi kim nimani bilishini aniqlavolinglar. Agar kimnidir shahsiy fikri sizniki b-n to'g'ri kelmasa uni ustidan kulish usha odamni aksinchaga ubedit qilishning eng zor yoli emas menimcha.

Keyin bazi bir narsalar haqida fikrim:

Islom bu hayot tarzi. Yani islom va islomning asosiy manbasi bo'lmish qur'on hayotimizning har bir masalasiga aloqasi bor. Afsus qur'ondi o'zini oqimagan ekanman, bo'lmasam vzhatiyni gapi to'grimi yo notogri bolganligi haqida qo'shilar edim.

Orislarni kelib bizga madaniyat olib kelganligi to'g'risida. Ming afsus tarih taqazosi b-n va orislarning omadiga bizning (orta osiyoliklar) orasida madaniy, ilmiy va ijtimoiy hayot tanzulga botayotganda orislar kelib bizni bosgan. Ular albatta har bir successful bosqinchi qiladigan ishni qilgan yani o'z madaniyati va ilmini biz b-n bo'lishgan. Bu albatta o'z ijobiy natijalarini bugun mana sizlar o'tirib bir birlaring b-n Boburnoma, Quron va boshqa masalalerda fikr yuritayotganliklaringda ko'rsatyapti. Kimdir etdi o'rislar kelmaganida biz bunda bo'lishimiz mumkin edi, unday bo'lishimiz mumkin edi. Qani isbot. Afg'oniston isbot bo'lsa men usha o'ris bosqinchilariga chuqur tashkurimni bildiraman. Bu hammasi o'tmish. Siz qanday fikrda bo'lmangiz o'tmishni o'zgartira olmaysiz. Ammo keljak sizni qo'lingizda. Shuningchun biz harakat qilishimiz kerakki (o'tmish darslaridan o'rganib albatta) chtobi uzbekoston v budushem bil takim kak nashi predki mechtali.

O'zbek millatchiligi va boshqalar hususida. O'zbekistonda ancha ko'p minoritylar bor albatta. Their situation is not necesarily better than that of the uzbeks abroad. I am thinking in terms of opportunities presented before russians, kazahs and others. Please think for a moment if a russian national would even hope for being elected the president of uzbekistan. Even though that russian national is native born citizen and bright like Einstein. All in all we should cure our own problems before acusing others of having one.

Men shahsan orta osiyo birligi tarafdoriman. Mamlakat kelajagini usha mamlakatning iqtisodiy resurslari belgilaydi (example Russia, USA, China). O'zbekiston bir o'zi muvafaqiyatli bo'la oladi albatta, ammo usha muvafaqiyat tarihda sezilarli o'rin qoldiradimi yo yoqmi. Menimcha yevropsa birligining ketida ham huddi shu masala yani iqtisodiy birlik turadi (pool of resources, better communication, cost savings). Ammo o'rta osiyo birlashsa o'zlaring tasavur qilib ko'ringlar nima imkoniyatlar ochilishi mumkin. Menga qolsa afg'onistondiyam qoshib olardim.

A tak hozircha shu. Etiborlaring u-n rahmat.

[Maftuna]

Assalomu Alaykum,

mening fikrimcha O'rta Osiyoning bir bo'lishining iloji yo'q edi, bo'lmaydi ham. To'g'ri, o'zbek, qozoq, qirg'iz, turkman - hammamiz bitta din, o'hshash(!) bir hil emas) madaniyat va tilga egamiz. Lekin agar o'hshashligimiz ko'pligi rost bo'lsa va boshqa xalqlar ham o'zbeklarga o'hshasalar, ishonchim komilki, ular bir-birining go'shtini yegan bo'lardilar. O'ylab ko'ring-a, odamlar boyligi sal ko'prog'ini oyog'idan chaladi. Havas yo'q odamlarimizda, faqat hasad.

Nega ruslar O'rta Osiyoni bosib ola bilishgan? Chunki o'sha paytda faqat turli millatlar emas, aka-uka xonlar ham bir-biriga qarshi tishini qayrab yurgan bo'lgan. Bobur hazratlarining Afg'oniston-u Hindiston qarab ketishigayam sabab qarindosh mirzolarning birlashmaganligi, yurtni osongina Shayboniyxonga topshirib qo'yganligimasmi?
Boshidan birlasholmagan xalq endi qayoqdan ham birlashardi.

O'zbeklarning qo'shni yurtlarda kamsitilishi haqida. Rostini aytadigan bo'lsak, siz-u menga o'hshab bu narsalardan kuyunib yurganlar bir hovuchgina. Lekin qolgan 24 yarim million odam bir-biriga ola qarab yashaydi-ku. Bu narsa hatto tilimizgayam singib ketgan. Qarang, bilmas ekanman, Toshkent tomonlarda birovni (o'zbekni) "e-e, qozoq" desangiz ensasi qotarkan. (balki hatodir, bilmadim) Biz Farg'ona tomonlarda esa "e-e, qirg'iz" deymiz. Degandayam salbiy ma'noda. Mani qishlog'imdan tog' tomonga qarab 15 minut yursangiz, qirg'izlar bir-birini "sart" deb so'kadi. Ular uchun "o'zbek" bo'lish salbiydan salbiy. Nimaga?

Manimcha, bizning xalqlarimiz hali bu narsalarni tahlil qilishga tayyor emas. O'zimizni hurjunimizni elkaga olganimizga endigina 10 yil bo'lgan bo'lsa, odamlar haliyam qorin to'ydirish bilan ovora. Orzuim birki, bir kun kelib, odamlarimizning qorni to'yar, 24/7 ishlashdan to'htab, bir yon-atrofga, dunyoda nimalar bo'layotganiga nazar tashlar. O'shandagina hamma keraksiz va andishasiz kamsitilishlar ham, boshqa katta-kichik muammolar ham barham topar. Balki o'sha paytlar yaqin qolgandir, hech bo'lmasa siz-u men oq-qorani tanib qoldik-ku, ertaga biz o'rta yoshli avlod bo'lamiz-da, bolalarimizga tushuntiramiz. Ungacha Hudo poshsho...

Rahmat.

[cute]

To'ppa to'g'ri.

[UZBEKKIZI]

[quote]o'zbeg bola (Apr 30, 2002 20:43):

"Aytiladigan gapga to'la ishonch bo'lmasa undan foydalnmaganlik ma'qul."
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Aynan shunday gaplarni avvalo men sizga aytgan bo'lar edim...
Hamma narsa haqida hohlagancha fikr yuritish mumkin, lekin haqiqat haqiqatligicha qoladi.
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"Keyin murojaat qilinayotgan odamning dindor-dindormas, ..."
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Iye qiziqchi ekansiz-ku, nima bu bilan u odam xristian demoqchimisiz? (hozirda o'zbeklar orasida bu dinga o'tayotganlar bo'lsa ham ular juda kamchilikni tashkil etadi). qo'ying-e bunaqa quruq gaplarni.
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"e'tiboringiz uchun mirzo Bobir kimni o'zbek va kimni "sart" degani haqida qiziq ma'lumot:

http://www.ferghana.ru/ancient/babur.html
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shoshmang-shoshmang, kulishga hali vaqt topiladi...
o'qib chiqdim, lekin hech qanday kuladigan joyini topganim yo'q. bu adresni nimaga yozganingizga ham hayronman. menimcha shu sahifani siz o'zingiz yana bir o'qib chiqishingiz kerak (Boburning kimni o'zbek, kimni sart va kimni turk deb ataganiga yaxshi e'tibor bering).
hozirgi o'zbeklar oldin sart deb atalganlar... birgina savolimga javob bersangiz, agar malol kelmasa: sizningcha sartlar kimu, o'zbeklar kimlar bo'lgan unda?
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"Bu kabi o'hshashlik, umumiylikni qozoq-qyrg'yzlarga nisabatan ishlatib bo'lmaydi."
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bu fikringizga ham qo'shilmayman. shaxsan men (men ham qozoq yoki qirg'iz emasman) o'zim ularni yaxshi tushunaman. men o'qiyotgan universitetda (AQSH) Qozog'istondan va Qirg'izistondan talabalar bor. Ular na o'zbekchada, men na ularning tilida gaplasha olaman. Hammamiz o'z tillarimizda gaplashamiz va bir-birimizni juda yaxshi tushunamiz.
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"Toshkentda qozoqlarning Xabar degan ko'rsatuvini ko'rish mumkin edi, qozoqchani eshitsangiz nuqul "jett'i-jett'i" - umuman gaprish uslubi, ko'rinishi mo'gullarnikini eslatadi, ularning millat sifatida o'zbeklarga qanchalik yaqinligi shahsan men uchun shubhalik."
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Qadim-qadimlarda bizning tilimiz ham qozoq tilining tallafuziga yaqin bo'lgan, lekin forscha va arabcha so'zlar kirib kelishi oqibatida, o'zbek tilidagi singarmonizm yoq'olib borgan va o'zbek tili tojik tilining talaffuz qilinishiga yaqin bo'lib ketgan. Qozoq tilida esa ko'plab mo'gul so'zlari mavjud, ya'ni mo'gul tilining ta'siri katta.

ularning millat sifatida o'zbeklarga yaqinligi haqida hech shubhangiz bo'lmasin, chunki shubha qiladigan gapning o'zi yo'q bu yerda.
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"tarihni chuqur o'rganib qaralsa sovetlarning ko'chmanchi khalklarni madaniylashtirishdagi alohida o'rnini rad etib bo'lmaydi. Umuman uyi yo'k, doimo bir joydan boshqa joyga ko'chib yuradigan ko'chmanchilarga shaharlar, madaniyat o'choqlari - maktab, universitet va hkz. yaratilganligini inkor etish qiyin."
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men, "madaniyat o'choqlari" yaratilmagan demayapman, aksincha, ana o'sha "muassasalar" chin dildan, "mana shu o'zbek yoki qozoq xalqi rivojlansin" deb qurilmagan demoqchiman. o'sha siz aytgan "madaniyat o'choqlari"da ("tahsil olgan") butun dunyoga don'gi ketgan biror o'zbek uchuvchisi, yoki jarrohi, yoki shoiru yozuvchisi, yoki kino yulduzi chiqqanmi?
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"Sovetlarning madaniyat, ilm-fan va hayotning boshqa tarmoqlariga qilgan ijobiy ta'siri (siyosiy propoganda bilan to'la bo'lsa ham) O'zbekistonga ham tegishli. Savodsizlikni tugatilishi,..."
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ruslar kelmasidan avval bizda hamma savodsiz bo'lmagan. bunga dalillar talaygina. masalan, birgina yozuvchilarimizning bolalikdagi va ota-onalari haqida yozgan xotiralarini o'qib chiqsangiz, bunga o'zingiz ham ishonch hosil qilasiz.
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"kyz-ayollar huquqini ta'minlanishi, sog'liqni saqlash tizimini rivjlantirish, zamonaviy ilm dargohlarini ochilihi va hkz. lar bunga misol."
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ayollar haqidagi fikringiz to'g'ri, lekin bu ham o'zbek ayollarini o'ylab qilinmagan. ruslarga ishchi kuchi kerak bo'lganidan shunday qilingan...
aslida, bu mavzuda kitob va maqolalar yozilgan (ga'rb olimlari tomonidan). shularga asoslanib fikr bildirmoqdaman.
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"Jumladan ayollarning paranjisiz ko'chada yura olish, ijtimoiy hayotda erkaklar bilan tengma-teng holda o'qish-ishlash huquqlari sovet.larning olib borgan siyosati natijalari ekanligini ayniqsa "UZBEKKIZI"(yozilish bo'yicha o'ruscha:))lari qadrlashlari lozim (mantuiqan olib qaralsa)."
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Ha to'g'ri aytasiz, yaxshi ham o'sha "og'alarimiz" bor ekan, bo'lmasa ba'zibir erkaklarimiz boshimizdan paranjini umuman oldrimasmidi? :)
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daniyalik Olufsen va amerikalik Skayler degan sayyohlarning Markaziy Osiyoga, aynan hozirgi O'zbekiston hududiga (ruslarning O'rta Osiyoga endigina bostirib kelayotgan paytlarda, 1874-99 yillarda) qilgan safarlaridagi kuzatishlarini o'qib ko'rsangiz, o'sha paytlarda ham ko'p bo'lmasa ham o'zbek ayollarimizning paranjisiz yurganlari haqida gapiriladi. (demak, paranjiga isyon sovetlar kelishidan ilgari boshlangan ekan-da...)
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"UZBEKKIZI"(yozilish bo'yicha o'ruscha:))"
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maydalashishni yomon ko'rar edim, ha mayli, bu gapingizga ham javob yozaman. sizga gapim bitta: shunday deb yozish menga yoqadi, vassalom....
imlo xatolariga juda "ehtiyotkor" ekansiz, avval o'z xatolaringizni tuzatsangiz.



rahmat,
--d.

[estima]

>maftuna, balli! Aytilgan gaplar to'g'ri.

O'rta osiyo bir davlatga birlashishdan oldin O'zbekiston ichidagi holatga nazar tashlab ko'ring. Toshkentda yashaydigan ko'pchilik (hamma emas) viloyatdagilarga qanaqa munosabatda? Boshqa o'zini madaniy yuqori deb hisoblaydigan viloyatlar ham bor, misol uchun Samarqand... (hech kimga tegib ketmaydi deb umid qilaman) Samarqandda ham ko'pchilik Surhondaryo, Qashqadaryo haqida gap chiqsa " Ee, Surqash da ..." deyishadi.

O'rta Osiyo xalqlari orasida ham shunga o'hshash holat (albatta butun qozoqlar o'zbeklarga bir hil munosabatda demoqchi emasman...). Shu kabi munosabat mavjud ekan O'rta Osiyo birlashishishi amri mahol...

(keltirgan misolim 100% mantiqan to'g'ri bo'lmasligi mumkin) :)

[Freestyler]

A razve kto-to predlagal bir davlat bo'lish?!?!?!

V Yevropeyskom soyuze , skol'ko, - 12 ili 15 gosudarstv?
Odnako im eto ne pomeshalo ved' sozdat' snachalo yedniyu ekonomicheskuyu zonu (EEC), a teper' uje i polniy soyus (EU) ?!?!

Ya vot odnogo ne poymu: chto u vas za privichka dumat', chto gosudarsvto - eto mesto gde jivyot odna naciya, vse ostal'niye - "minority". Brosayte uje takoye gniloye, psevdo-antikoloniyal'noye mishleniye...
Yevropa starayetsya ubejat' ot etogo, a mi je pochemu-to stremimsya.

Sovsem ne nado chto-bi uzbeki, kazahi, turkmeni, tadjiki, kirgizi, uyguri, yevrei, russkiye i prochiye nacii projivayushiye v CA imeli odnu kul'turu, yazik i religiyu. Glvanoye ved' chto celi u nas odni, i ekonomicheskiye i social'niye. Glavnoye chtobi uvajali i lubili drug-druga. A ne grizlis' po nacional'nim prichinam, obkladivali granici minami, nalagali vizoviy rejim, tariffi i qvoti. Vredim tol'ko drug-drugu, egoisti potomu chto.

[Tank]

I would like to add about discrimination against Uzbeks in the USA. As u probably now many Uzbeks lives and studies in the USA so last summer I went for Afro-American weeding and one black nigger ask me where u from and like all patriot Uzbeks said that I am from Uzbekistan, and u know this thing he begin “Pakistan”, “Afghanistan”, then I said no U Z B….N and he said something like Usmenekstan . So my point why this people don’t know Uzbeks I think this is a big discrimination against Uzbeks :)

p.c Let's discuss this subject without pushing Kazakh nation.(uahhahaha)

[yahyobek]

Glavnaya prichina vseh problem javljaetsa sama vneshnaya politikia pravitelstvo respubliki Uzbekistan. Vse negativnye yavleniya na granizax s grazhdanami Uzbekistana eto kak by bumerang otpusheny ranee Uzbekskim pravitelstvom. Izza straxa pered terroristami (svoimi) Uzbekistan zaminiroval vse svoi pogranichnye rayony, kazhdy mesyatz nevinnye grazhdane Tadjikistana I Kyrgyzstana pogibayut na etih minah. Pogranichniki Uzbekistana samye nekulturnye sredi stran CA (daje skazal by samye naglye). Objavlen visovy rejim svoim sosedyam, zakryli vse dorogi. Cherez Uzbekistan prohodit osnovnye high ways CA, teper oni prakticheski ne dostupny, sam ja iz Kirgizstana I jyvu prigranichnom rayone mezhdu Jalal-Abadom I Andijanskoi oblasti. Vse publichnye oskorblenie kotorye idet iz Tashkenta (President Karimov, naprimer inogda tak konkretno kritikuet kirgizov) takje nagloe I gruboe otnoshenie uzbeksih pogranichnikov k kirgizam kotorye perehodyat granizu iz Osha v Jalal-Abad (cherez Hanabad) vliajet potom otnoshenieyax etnicheskim Uzbekam projyvayushyh v Kirgizstane. Otnoshenie ja by skazal ne ochen priyatnoe. Vse svoe zlo berut so “svoih” kirgizstanskih uzbekov, takaja je situatzija v Tadjikistane. Uzbekskie vlasti ne lubjat zeremonitza. Vse sosednie gosudarstva I ixnie voennye s bolshym udovolstviem budut unijat grazhdan Uzbekistana, kogda s ucheby ehal obratno domoi mashinu ostanavlivali kirgizskie militzioneri I sprashyvali “esli grazhdane Uzbekistana” esli da, to ostanavlivayut I delayut che hotyat. Tak vezde I kazhdy den, lish by pokazhy Uzbekski Pasport. A vot kakie “prikluchenie” jdut Kirgizskih, kazahskih, tadjiksih grazhdan esli popadut v Uzbekistan, to dlja etogo nado otkryt otdelnyu temu. Vremya budet posmotrite na eti stati:

http://www.respublica.elcat.kg/Yug/arc/020122_1/3.htm

http://www.delo.elcat.kg/archiv2/36/3.htm

http://eurasia.org.ru/cgi-bin/datacgi/database.cgi?file=News&report=SingleArticleRu&ArticleID=0000386

[o'zbeq bola]

Reuters (May 03, 2002 13:50):
Glavnaya prichina vseh problem javljaetsa sama vneshnaya politikia pravitelstvo respubliki Uzbekistan. Vse negativnye yavleniya na granizax s grazhdanami Uzbekistana eto kak by bumerang otpusheny ranee Uzbekskim pravitelstvom. Izza straxa pered terroristami (svoimi) Uzbekistan zaminiroval vse svoi pogranichnye rayony, kazhdy mesyatz nevinnye grazhdane Tadjikistana I Kyrgyzstana pogibayut na etih minah. Pogranichniki Uzbekistana samye nekulturnye sredi stran CA (daje skazal by samye naglye). Objavlen visovy rejim svoim sosedyam, zakryli vse dorogi. Cherez Uzbekistan prohodit osnovnye high ways CA, teper oni prakticheski ne dostupny, sam ja iz Kirgizstana I jyvu prigranichnom rayone mezhdu Jalal-Abadom I Andijanskoi oblasti. Vse publichnye oskorblenie kotorye idet iz Tashkenta (President Karimov, naprimer inogda tak konkretno kritikuet kirgizov) takje nagloe I gruboe otnoshenie uzbeksih pogranichnikov k kirgizam kotorye perehodyat granizu iz Osha v Jalal-Abad (cherez Hanabad) vliajet potom otnoshenieyax etnicheskim Uzbekam projyvayushyh v Kirgizstane. Otnoshenie ja by skazal ne ochen priyatnoe. Vse svoe zlo berut so “svoih” kirgizstanskih uzbekov, takaja je situatzija v Tadjikistane. Uzbekskie vlasti ne lubjat zeremonitza. Vse sosednie gosudarstva I ixnie voennye s bolshym udovolstviem budut unijat grazhdan Uzbekistana, kogda s ucheby ehal obratno domoi mashinu ostanavlivali kirgizskie militzioneri I sprashyvali “esli grazhdane Uzbekistana” esli da, to ostanavlivayut I delayut che hotyat. Tak vezde I kazhdy den, lish by pokazhy Uzbekski Pasport. A vot kakie “prikluchenie” jdut Kirgizskih, kazahskih, tadjiksih grazhdan esli popadut v Uzbekistan, to dlja etogo nado otkryt otdelnyu temu. Vremya budet posmotrite na eti stati:

http://www.respublica.elcat.kg/Yug/arc/020122_1/3.htm

http://www.delo.elcat.kg/archiv2/36/3.htm

http://eurasia.org.ru/cgi-bin/datacgi/database.cgi?file=News&report=SingleArticleRu&ArticleID=0000386

mozhno posmotret v problemu s inoy tochki zreniya. Uzbekistan na dele yavlyaetsya edinstvennoy respublikoy tsentralnoy azii sposobnoya postoyat za sebya i zashitit svoi interesi bez pomoshi izvne, chego ne skazhesh o sosednih respublikah. Uzbekistan vedet nezavisimuyu politiku napravlennoe na zashitu interesov regiona, v otlichii ot "EDUCATED" Akaeva (kotoriy nikak ne mozhet opredilitsya so starshim bratom , to eto Rossiya, to Kitay, to US) ili dr. liderov regiona. To chto Uzbekistan miniruiet svoi granitsi i vvodit vizoviy rezhim - mera neobhodimaya, vsem izvestno islamisti nashli ubezhishe v teh stranah, gde minimum poryadka. Interesniy fakt, chto na minah podrivayutsya tolko grazhdani so storoni Kyrgizii i Tadjikistana, a ne s Uzbekistana daet osnovanie pologat, podrivayutsya v osnovnom narushiteli granitz. O fakte minirovaniya granitz znayut sosednie respubliki, to chto oni ne predupredili svoih grazhdan o tom chto nezakonniy perehod granitzi mozhet povlech za soboi pechalnie posledstvioe - eto vina etih zhe gosudarstv.

To chto govorit kyrgyzstanets o polozhenie Uzbekah v kyrgyzstane ochen pechalnoe. Udivetelno, kak grazhdanin kyrgyzstana s ponimaniem i odobreniem otnositsya k unizheniyu uzbekov i ushemleniyu ih prav v svoey strane - Kyrgyzstane, zabivaya o tom chto uzbeki kyrgyzstana tozhe yavlyayutsya grazhdanami odnoy respubliki i dolzhni polzovatsya s takimi zhe pravami kak i kyrgyzi. Razdrazhaet otnoshenie kyrgyzov po otnosheniyu uzbekam, kotorie tisyachiletyami prozhivayut v istoricheskih gorodov Kyrgyzstana, reznya uzbekov so storoni kyrgyzov v 90-e godi dayet predstavlenie kak kyrgyzi mogut oboytis so svoimi zhe grazhdanami drugoy natsionalnosti.

Nagnetaet otnoshenie meozhdu stranami imenno Kyrgyzstan, provodya "EDUCATED" ekonomicheskuyu politiku zalez v dolgah, chto virazhaetsya v xronicheskih ne viplat dolgov Uzbekistanu za ispolzovannie energoresursi, vvedenie oplati za vodu na transnatsionalnie reki, tselenapravlennoe ispolzovaniya vodynih resursov v usherb ekonomiki Uzbekistana, pritenziii na uzbekskie territorii - anklavi v kyrgyzstane, nesostoyatelnost zashitit svoi granitsi, sozdavaya tem samim ugrozu granitsam Uzbekistana, takzhe prorossiyskaya orientatsiya Kyrgizii govoryat ne o druzhestvennih chustvah sosedey k Uzbekistanu.

Inogda mozhno podumat, pravilno vse taki govoryat. chto Uzbekistanu ne povezlo s geografiey (netu pryamogo vihoda k moryu, sosedi ne zainteresovani v ravitii Uzbekistana) i s sosedyami (stavyat podnozhki, gde mozhno), no etogo ne izmenit :(, prihoditsya s nimi ladit. Budem nadeyatsya na usileniya roli Uzbekistana v regione i chto sosednie strani vrode kyrgizstana tozhe budut uchitivat i interesi regiona v tselom.

[yahyobek]

Ne pravilno ponjali, ja lichno protiv tex deystvii kirgizskih militzii v otnoshenii grazhdan Uzbekistana i protiv nagloi otnoshenii Uzbekskih pogranichnikov protiv grazhdan Kirgizstana. Diskriminaziyu izza togo chot ya sam Uzbek, vstrechal ochen i ochen mnogo raz poverte. Kogda hotel ustoritsa na rabotu, kogda postupal v VUZ, kogda razgovarival na uzbeksom na rabote. Kogda na uzbekskoi granize ostanovlivayut kogo nibud iz nashey raboti i izdevayutsa, tot chelovek priezjal i govorit ne priyatnye veshi ob Uzbekax. Malo togo idet postojannoe unijenie samom Kirgizstane etomu dobavlaetsa i v granize, naprimer prohodish uzbekskuyu granizu tam uje Uzbekskie pogranichniki nachinayut, tak kak grazhdanin Kirgizstana(uzbek ne uzbek ne interesuet).
Pro min. a Wam izvestno chto minirovat' uje zapresheno vezde po vsemu miru, ispolzovat' protivo pehotnye mini zapresheno i est' konvenziya ob etom. Pishite chto pogibayut tolko grazhdane drugih stran, a interesno chto Voennye Uzbekistana kogda minirovali granizi mezhdu Kirgizstanom vlastyam etoi strani nichego i negovorili, v kirgizskih gazetax skolko raz pisali chtoby predostavili karty etih mest. Takim obrazom opravdovat svoi deystvie protiv sosednyh respublik......i pritom v etix rayonah i v Tadjikistane i v Kirgizstane osnovnom jyvut etnicheskie uzbeki. Zashishat svoyu stranu nado i pravilno skazali Kirgizstan ili Tadjikistan ne sostoyanii zashishat sebe, i ot kogo zashishaete? ot svoih je grazhdan kotorye stali nedovolny politikoi provodimoi seychas. Vse eti terroristy bezrabotnye molodye ludi iz Ferganskoi Doliny, vopros opjat idet obratno v Uzbekistan. Esli nemnoshko izmenit otnoshenie k sosedjam dumaju vse respubilki budut tolko za razvitie Uzbekistana, potomu chto vygodno budet vsem. Uzbekistan kluchevaja strana i mog by igrat ochen glavnuyu rol v regione, vseh soedenit, a mesto etogo seychas proishodit samoizoljatzija. Ja zarubejom vsegda gordostyu govoryu chto ya Uzbek po nazionalnosti. Ochen radyus' kogda slyshu horoshye novosti iz Uzbekistana, no kogda videsh svoimi glazami unijenie svoih soograzhdan na granize........slyshali by razgovory ofizerov, kak oni tam materyatsa (na uzbekskom) pri detei, jenshin, starikov, kakie neprijatnye slova govorjat pro Kirgizstan, kak vy seychas pishite pro Akaeva, tam esho "kruche" opisyvajut ego. Kirgizam eto konechno ne nravitsa i sootvetsvenno postupayut kogda uvidjat grazhdan Uzbekistana u sebja, i ploho zdes vsem, osnovnom etnicheskim uzbekam, s odnoi storony Kirgizskie vlasti davjat s drugoi soldaty istoricheskoi rodiny izdevajutsa.

[Pax]

Tank (May 03, 2002 10:15):
I would like to add about discrimination against Uzbeks in the USA. As u probably now many Uzbeks lives and studies in the USA so last summer I went for Afro-American weeding and one black nigger ask me where u from and like all patriot Uzbeks said that I am from Uzbekistan, and u know this thing he begin “Pakistan”, “Afghanistan”, then I said no U Z B….N and he said something like Usmenekstan . So my point why this people don’t know Uzbeks I think this is a big discrimination against Uzbeks :)

p.c Let's discuss this subject without pushing Kazakh nation.(uahhahaha)

Hello, bro!
I think you shouldn't be surprised by the response of an Afro-american and feel insulted.

So much about the American culture, their vision of the rest of the world has been said here...
http://www.forum.uz/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=3&TID=9338&SID=11868

NOTE:
The posts by Freestyler are my favorites.

[muk14]

We all know uzbekistan rocks.

But sympathetic/ patriotic feelings away. We are still a young country that needs a lot of help from outside. Recent move of our governement to open up free international currency (dollar in this case) circulation is a move that is signalling our countries dire need in foriegn investments. I am talking about World Bank and its requirements before it extends loans.

Well countries like Kirgizistan have been a lot quicker than our country to open up for foriegn investment, thus is their current debt situation (I am making the assumptions based on other posts stating that kirgizistan has got a huge debt). Whether it is bad for the country or good will be shown in time. Being in debt is not nessesarily a negative factor for a country. It brings much needed capital to develop infrustructure. So there is no need to label this move of kirgizstan as "uneducated".

On the other hand Uzbekistan is the clear leader in the region, whether the other countries like it or not. But we are nowhere near of economically being able to back up our leadership position. Who cares about the neighbor, when he himself is starving and haunted by unempoyment problems.

The human resources, geographical location, economic infrustructure that our country has necessitates the politics (internal/external) our government adopted. For one I am sure our country doesnt have the agricultural potential to feed the population. And with the slumping prices on cotton (our main export) for the recent years, providing for the well being of the population has been an increasingly difficult task.

The problem is that the other countries see the leader in us, but a leader that is too weak to get the region out of trouble. Thus the hostile attitudes towards our country. Think North american region. Would US have the current level of relations with Mexico, were they not helping them so much?

So the neighboring countries look for an answer for their internal problems in Uzbekistan. Seeing that our country is further blocking and distancing itself from the neighbors, they blame Uzbekistan for uncooperativeness and unwillingness to help others. Unfortunatly the ultimate victims of this political and economic struggle are ordinary citizens of the countries of the region. So much for that.

In all we do need outside help (investments) to bail our country out and ultimately help our neighbors. Untill then I do not see the discriminationg abating a bit.

Just a note. If we did not have the current unempoyment problem, would it still be so easy for extremists to hire recruits? And as countermeasure would our country feel the need for such an extended sucurity forces (militia, SNB, pogranichniye voiska). Afterall their upkeep comes out of the national budget, the much needed money that could be used elsewhere.

[o'zbeg bola]

Reuters (May 03, 2002 19:26):
Ne pravilno ponjali, ja lichno protiv tex deystvii kirgizskih militzii v otnoshenii grazhdan Uzbekistana i protiv nagloi otnoshenii Uzbekskih pogranichnikov protiv grazhdan Kirgizstana. Diskriminaziyu izza togo chot ya sam Uzbek, vstrechal ochen i ochen mnogo raz poverte. Kogda hotel ustoritsa na rabotu, kogda postupal v VUZ, kogda razgovarival na uzbeksom na rabote. Kogda na uzbekskoi granize ostanovlivayut kogo nibud iz nashey raboti i izdevayutsa, tot chelovek priezjal i govorit ne priyatnye veshi ob Uzbekax. Malo togo idet postojannoe unijenie samom Kirgizstane etomu dobavlaetsa i v granize, naprimer prohodish uzbekskuyu granizu tam uje Uzbekskie pogranichniki nachinayut, tak kak grazhdanin Kirgizstana(uzbek ne uzbek ne interesuet).
Pro min. a Wam izvestno chto minirovat' uje zapresheno vezde po vsemu miru, ispolzovat' protivo pehotnye mini zapresheno i est' konvenziya ob etom. Pishite chto pogibayut tolko grazhdane drugih stran, a interesno chto Voennye Uzbekistana kogda minirovali granizi mezhdu Kirgizstanom vlastyam etoi strani nichego i negovorili, v kirgizskih gazetax skolko raz pisali chtoby predostavili karty etih mest. Takim obrazom opravdovat svoi deystvie protiv sosednyh respublik......i pritom v etix rayonah i v Tadjikistane i v Kirgizstane osnovnom jyvut etnicheskie uzbeki. Zashishat svoyu stranu nado i pravilno skazali Kirgizstan ili Tadjikistan ne sostoyanii zashishat sebe, i ot kogo zashishaete? ot svoih je grazhdan kotorye stali nedovolny politikoi provodimoi seychas. Vse eti terroristy bezrabotnye molodye ludi iz Ferganskoi Doliny, vopros opjat idet obratno v Uzbekistan. Esli nemnoshko izmenit otnoshenie k sosedjam dumaju vse respubilki budut tolko za razvitie Uzbekistana, potomu chto vygodno budet vsem. Uzbekistan kluchevaja strana i mog by igrat ochen glavnuyu rol v regione, vseh soedenit, a mesto etogo seychas proishodit samoizoljatzija. Ja zarubejom vsegda gordostyu govoryu chto ya Uzbek po nazionalnosti. Ochen radyus' kogda slyshu horoshye novosti iz Uzbekistana, no kogda videsh svoimi glazami unijenie svoih soograzhdan na granize........slyshali by razgovory ofizerov, kak oni tam materyatsa (na uzbekskom) pri detei, jenshin, starikov, kakie neprijatnye slova govorjat pro Kirgizstan, kak vy seychas pishite pro Akaeva, tam esho "kruche" opisyvajut ego. Kirgizam eto konechno ne nravitsa i sootvetsvenno postupayut kogda uvidjat grazhdan Uzbekistana u sebja, i ploho zdes vsem, osnovnom etnicheskim uzbekam, s odnoi storony Kirgizskie vlasti davjat s drugoi soldaty istoricheskoi rodiny izdevajutsa.

interesnaya informatsia o situatsii natsionalnih menshinstv v "demokraticheskom" Kyrgyzstane - takoe v mass-media poka ne vstrechal.

Za unizhenie etnicheskih uzbekov v kyrgyzstane nesut otvetstvennost isklyuchitelno vlasti samoy respubliki kyrgyzstan, ni v koem sluchae deystviya uzbekskih pogranichnikov. Eto patetichno unizhat svoih zhe grazhdan po etnicheskomu priznaku izza povedeniya otdelnih pogranichnikov drugogo gosudarstva. Eto vseravno, chto esli bi uzbeki ushemlyali svoih sograzhdan russkogo proishozhdeniya za nechelovecheskoe obrashenie rossiyskoy militsii v moskve po otnosheniyu yuzhanam.

Opravdat takie protivopravnoe polozhenie v kyrgyzstane nichem nelzya. Fakticheskayu diskriminatsiyu opredelennoy gruppi grazhdan po etnicheskomu priznaku v Kyrgyzstane mozhno priravnit k rasistkoy politiki natsistov germanii 30-40ih godov.


Pro min: skazannoe vami "minirovat zapresheno po vsemu miru" ne sootvetstvuet deystvitelnosti. Tot zhe Kyrgyzstan miniruet svoi granitsi s Tadjikistanom, Tadjikistan svoi granitsi s Afghanistanom.

V sluchae Uzbekistana, respublika ne ratifitsirovala ni odno soglashenie zapreshayushoe ispolzovanie protivopehotnih min. Yuridicheski, Uzbekistan imeet polnoe pravo minirovat svoi granitzi dlya sohraneniya neprikosnovennosti svoih territoriy ishodya iz soobrazheniy bezopasnosti. Osnovaniy dlya minirovaniya granits bili bolee chem dostatochni. Vsem izvesten fakt, chto raziskivaemie v Uzbekistane banditi Djumi Namangani nashli priyut v Tadjikistane, chastnichno i v Kyrgyzstane. S etimi gosudarstvami Uzbekistan imeet soglasheniya o vidachi prestupnikov. Sosednie strani ne bili v sostoyanii vilovit banditov ili skoree vsego ne zahoteli etogo sdelat. Sobitiya 2000 goda pokazali, chto ugroza izvne mozhet poluchit formi pryamogo voennogo napadeniya na granitzii Uzbekistana. Edinstvennaya mera dlya effektivnoy zashiti respubliki yavlyalis minirovaniya svoih granitz so stranami, otkuda ishodila realnaya ugroza.

Mozhno sozhalet, chto na minah podarvalis tozhe mirnie zhiteli sosednih stran. No pri etom sleduet otmetit, za ih gibel nesut otvetstvennost isklyuchetlno vlasti etih stran.

Dlya pravoporyadochnih grazhdan sosednih stran bili ustanovleni punkti dlya zakonnogo peresecheniya granitz, o minirovaniy svoih granitz Uzbekistan opoveshal sootvetstvuyushie vedomstva sosednix stran. To chto sami kyrgyzskie i tadjikiskie vlasti ne pozabotilis o bezopasnosti svoih grazhdan - eto problema ne Uzbekistana.

O "predostavlenii karti mestnostey minirovaniya" - pravilno sdelali chto ne predostavili karti, eto povleklo bi za soboy, chto eta informatsiya popala bi v ruki teh banditov, kotorie nashli priyut v sosednih stran, uznav kakie mestnosti ne zaminirovani oni mogli-bi svobodno vhodit v territoriyu Uzb.

Etst optmizm, chto posle nedavnih sobitiy v afghanistane problema minirovannih granitz naydet svoe reshenie, ne budet ugrozi iz sosednih stran - logchno ne budet nadobnosti sohronyat minnie polya.

udachi :)

p.s. o deystviyah uzbekskih pogranichnikov, kotorie odinakovo, bez razlichie po natsionalnomu priznaku naglo obrashayutsya s grazhdanami sosednih respublik mogli bi otkrit druguyu temu. Tema dannoy diskussii bolshe zatragivaet diskriminatsiyu protiv etnicheskih uzbekov v sosednom turkmenistane (gde kstati granitsi ne miniruyutsya).

[Freestyler]

Iz sobstvennogo opita znayu, chto Uzbekiskiye pogranichniki, a takje milicioneri i gaishniki - samiye nagliye (arrogant) v Central'noy Azii.

V sosednih stranah k ludyam otnosyatsya s bol'shim uvajeniyem. Hotya i im yest' yesho mnogo chemu nauchitsya i Britanskogo Scotland-Yarda.

The perspective proposed by o'zbek bola only proves the arrogance of the current Uzbek policy. Shameful.
Mol, Uzbekistan is a would-be Big Brother chto li v CA? I potom, kto vnushil to, chto Uzbekistan "...na dele yavlyaetsya edinstvennoy respublikoy tsentralnoy azii sposobnoy postoyat' za sebya i zashitit svoi interesi bez pomoshi izvne, chego ne skazhesh o sosednih respublikah"?!?!? Eto navernoye Axborot vedyot takuyu uspeshnuyu promivku mozgov? A chto je togda Uzbekistan treboval garantii ot US, chto oni zashityat Uzbekistan v sluchaye neobhodimosti ot talibov?!...

Net takoy nacii seychas v mire, kotoraya ne nujdalas' bi v chujoy pomoshi. Daje USA nujdalos' v podderjke koalicii dlya provedeniya operaciy v Afghanistane.
V to je vremya, yesli strana i v samom dele ni v kom ne nujdayetsya so storoni, to eto priznak avtoritarnosti, avtarkii. Dumayu, ne nado dokazivat' i ubejdat' kak eto ploho.

Tak chto ya priderjivayus' pozicii Reuters

[o'zbeg bola]

Freestyler (May 07, 2002 11:40):
Iz sobstvennogo opita znayu, chto Uzbekiskiye pogranichniki, a takje milicioneri i gaishniki - samiye nagliye (arrogant) v Central'noy Azii.

nu da Mr. anglo-saxon Freestyler :) ne stoit iz svoego opita davat universalnuyu otsenku o stepeni naglosti pogranichnikov, nado bilobi ukazat chto eto vsego lish chastnoetvoe mnenie.

V sosednih stranah k ludyam otnosyatsya s bol'shim uvajeniyem. Hotya i im yest' yesho mnogo chemu nauchitsya i Britanskogo Scotland-Yarda.

could you be more specific? or else you can easily say the contrary with the same effect ;)


The perspective proposed by o'zbek bola only proves the arrogance of the current Uzbek policy. Shameful.

it's a disscussion forum here, everyone is free to express his/her views on problems, you'd better use "shameful" somewhere not here.

Mol, Uzbekistan is a would-be Big Brother chto li v CA? I potom, kto vnushil to, chto Uzbekistan "...na dele yavlyaetsya edinstvennoy respublikoy tsentralnoy azii sposobnoy postoyat' za sebya i zashitit svoi interesi bez pomoshi izvne, chego ne skazhesh o sosednih respublikah"?!?!? Eto navernoye Axborot vedyot takuyu uspeshnuyu promivku mozgov?

Klyuchevoy rol Uzbekistana v CA ne osporim po rydu obyektivnih prichin, na schet "big-brothera" eto ne moi slova, pomenshe nado gadat.

Na schet osobogo nezavisimogo polozheniya Uzbekistana v regione - Uzbekistan yavlyaetsya edinstvennoy stranoy kotoraya so dnya nezavisimosti obespechivala neprikosnovennost svoih granits svoimi zhe silami, chto ne skazhesh o sosednih stran, eto prosto taki fakt, pochemu eto dolzhen razdrazhat kogo-to - neponyatno.

"pramivka mozgov", "gniloy", "axborot", "birtish scotlandyord" mozhesh ostavit pri sebe.

A chto je togda Uzbekistan treboval garantii ot US, chto oni zashityat Uzbekistan v sluchaye neobhodimosti ot talibov?!...

ne nado puat veshi, garantii ot US Uzbekistan treboval vzamen predostovleniya svoei territorii US voyskam po ih zhe prosbe, eto deal - usluga za uslugu.

Net takoy nacii seychas v mire, kotoraya ne nujdalas' bi v chujoy pomoshi. Daje USA nujdalos' v podderjke koalicii dlya provedeniya operaciy v Afghanistane.

provedenie opratsii v Afghanistane eto odno, zashita svoei territorii eto drugoe, ili hochesh skazat, chto amerikansi zashishayut svoi granitsi priglasiv soldat iz drugih stran?

V to je vremya, yesli strana i v samom dele ni v kom ne nujdayetsya so storoni, to eto priznak avtoritarnosti, avtarkii. Dumayu, ne nado dokazivat' i ubejdat' kak eto ploho.

nelzya soglasitsya s etim, nado individualno otsenivat sluchaya, est sluchaya kogda, kak raz taki avtoritarnie rezhimi, diktaturi derzhalis vo vlasti blogodarya pomoshyu izvne, primeri mozhesh nayti dazhe na primere CA.

Tak chto ya priderjivayus' pozicii Reuters

Reuters vrodebi govoril o diskriminatsii prav etnicheskih uzbekov v Kyrgyzstane, prichinoy kotoroy po ego mneniyu yavlyayutsya povedenie pogranichnikov. Po etomu povodu ya uzhe viskazalsya, chto ne mogu ponyat kakoe otnoshenie imeet tvoe visheskazannoe etomu ? try to be specific and have little logic, babe :)

[tokiec]

kak-to nahyol yokjik zoloto i reshil spryatat', zakopal pod derevom, a na dereve povesil tablichku:
"ZDES' ZOLOTA NET!"
podpis': yojik

probegaet mimo zayac, otkopal zoloto i pripisal:

"YA ZOLOTA NE BRAL!"
podpis': zayac


predstav'te sebe situaciyu: Uzbekistan miniruyet i razdayot vsem kartu mestnosti. a vot glupiye narushiteli budut otchayanno pitat'sya ne smotret' na kartu, napechatannuyu v SMI....

minirovat' ne horosho, a terrorist huje :p
Amerikanci vse geroi, za to chto terpyat svoyo pravitel'stvo. :o

[Freestyler]

Da, Sindbad, ti ochevidno mnogo morey proplil, no vod s logikoy tvoyey chto-to mne ne hochetsya soglashat'sya.

Kakoy zdravomislyashiy chelovek, prochitav i izuchiv karti minirovaniya po sredstvam massovoy informacii (i gde ti eto voobshe vzyal?), poydyot gulyat' po minnomu polu!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Nikto ne sporit', chto terroristi - eto ugroza. No eto je ne znachit chto vse meri horoshi. Puskay umrut desyatki mirnih jiteley (ne nashi ved'), zato dva-tri dissidenta ne posmeyut. Tak chto li?!?!?!?!?!

Pora bi uje razlichat' mejdu pravomernimi i nepravomernimi metodami bor'bi s extremistami.

Protivopehotniye mini, k svedeniyu neveduyshih, zapresheni OONovskoy konvenciyey! Kto-nibud' vspomnit iz vas ob etom? To-to

[stud]

Pora bi uje razlichat' mejdu pravomernimi i nepravomernimi metodami bor'bi s extremistami.

Protivopehotniye mini, k svedeniyu neveduyshih, zapresheni OONovskoy konvenciyey! Kto-nibud' vspomnit iz vas ob etom? To-to

kto-to poumnichal sdes, o chem to ne imeet polnogo svedeniya i odnovremenno nazivaet drugih "nevedueshimi" :)

nepravomernim metodom mozhno schitat tot method, kotoriy narushaet normi prava, vzyatie na sebya obyazatelstvo, t.e. nezakonnoe povedenie.

Na schet protivopehotnih min: est konventsiya o zapreshenii priminenii, proizvodstva i peredachi protivopehotnih min s 1997 goda i ona yavlyaetsya obyazatelnoy dlya stran uchastnits (podpisavshih i ratifitsirovavshih konvetsiyu). Uzbekistan ne prisoedeniyalsya k konventsii kak dovolno taki mnogie strani (v tom chisle US) i on de-jure ne obyazan sledovat konventsii.

ot etogo sleduet primenenie min so storoni RUz legitimno.

sledovalo-bi oznakomitsya s Konventsiey OOOO-O-N-NN (osobenno so statey 17) prezhde chem ispolzovat ee kak argument dlya samoutvezhdeniya (ili dlya togo chtobi pokazatsya umnikom) :D

[Freestyler]

Chto-j, mojet bit' i v samom dele Uzbekistan ne podpisival statyu, kak v prochem i mnogiye drugiye horoshiye zakoni i dokumenti, kotoriye bi sdelali chest' yemu. Ya ne yurist, i etih detaley posemu ne znayu.

I USA mne - ne barometr: oni i Kiotovskoye soglasheniye ne podpisali, i podryad narushayut pravila VTO.

Odnako mne, kak cheloveku zdravomislyashemu negumannost' protivopehotnih min nalico. Amoral'nost' takogo postupka, vot chto zastavilo civil'niye strani podpisat' eto soglasheniye.

Ochevidno takiye ponyatiya chujdi nekotorim... :)

[referee]

[quote]stud (May 15, 2002 15:56):
Na schet protivopehotnih min: est konventsiya o zapreshenii priminenii, proizvodstva i peredachi protivopehotnih min s 1997 goda i ona yavlyaetsya obyazatelnoy dlya stran uchastnits (podpisavshih i ratifitsirovavshih konvetsiyu). Uzbekistan ne prisoedeniyalsya k konventsii kak dovolno taki mnogie strani (v tom chisle US) i on de-jure ne obyazan sledovat konventsii.

ot etogo sleduet primenenie min so storoni RUz legitimno.

-----------------------------

a small N.B.: even if a state has not signed the treaty and has not ratified it either, it needs to be established it the rule of jus cogens applies. And, If the norm has been established as a international custom then it will definitely apply to Uzb. For instance, Uzb may have not ratified treaties on crimes against humanity and on apertheid but if it commits those crimes Uzb will be liable according to jus cogens if not customery international law.

[stud]

referee (May 17, 2002 07:20):

a small N.B.: even if a state has not signed the treaty and has not ratified it either, it needs to be established it the rule of jus cogens applies. And, If the norm has been established as a international custom then it will definitely apply to Uzb. For instance, Uzb may have not ratified treaties on crimes against humanity and on apertheid but if it commits those crimes Uzb will be liable according to jus cogens if not customery international law.

yes it's very interesting information, peremptory rules of customary law - jus cogens will be applicable without ratification as you wrote. But it is very doubtful that the Covention prohibiting antipersonnel mines has jus cogens nature, if you have any information in this respect leave it here.

[stud]

Freestyler (May 17, 2002 06:31):
Chto-j, mojet bit' i v samom dele Uzbekistan ne podpisival statyu, kak v prochem i mnogiye drugiye horoshiye zakoni i dokumenti, kotoriye bi sdelali chest' yemu. Ya ne yurist, i etih detaley posemu ne znayu.

kazhdaya strana buduchi suverennoy opredelyaet svoi interesi i na ih osnove reshaet prisoedenyatsya k soglasheniyam ili net. Sdes primenyaetsya chisto progmaticheskiy podhod.

Raz ti govorish, chto "Uzbekistan ne podpisival statyu, kak v prochem i mnogiye drugiye horoshiye zakoni i dokumenti, kotoriye bi sdelali chest' yemu" sledovalo bit po konkretney, hotyabi primeri privel-bi, a to tvoi slova kak maminkini rasskazi detishkam :)

I USA mne - ne barometr: oni i Kiotovskoye soglasheniye ne podpisali, i podryad narushayut pravila VTO.

USA mozhet bit tebe ne barometr, no vsezhe primer US pokazivaet, chto strani prisoedinyayutsya k konventiyu ishodya iz svoih interesov.

Na schet Kioto (ne poyme svyaz mezhdu Kioto i antipersonnel mines, no vse-zhe): podpisivat soglasheniya ili net eto pravo chlena WTO zakreplennoe pravilami WTO Law. V sluchaeh, kogda US ili EU, dr. strani narushaet WTO Law, to dlya etogo est Dispute settlement mechanism within WTO, gde i reshayutsya vse spori.

Odnako mne, kak cheloveku zdravomislyashemu negumannost' protivopehotnih min nalico. Amoral'nost' takogo postupka, vot chto zastavilo civil'niye strani podpisat' eto soglasheniye.

Ochevidno takiye ponyatiya chujdi nekotorim... :)

Uzbekistan miniroval svoi granitzi ne potomu chto on ot etogo kayf poluchal, a chisto iz soobrazheniy bezopasnosti, kogda minirovaniyo granitz bilo edinstvennim effektivnim metodom sohraneniya territorialnoy neprikosnovennosti UZ. "Amoralnost" tut ne prichem, Tadjikistan miniruet svoi granitsi s Afganistanom, Kyrgyziya s Tadjikistanom - pochemu imenno v sluchae s Uzbekistanom eto dolzhno bit amoralnim, eto ponyatno tol'ko tebe "cheloveku zdravomislyashemu".

Samokritichnim bit horosho, tolko eta ne dolzhno pererasti v komplexi, mol vse chto delaet UZ nepravilno.

[yahyobek]

stud : ..........Tadjikistan miniruet svoi granitsi s Afganistanom, Kyrgyziya s Tadjikistanom - pochemu imenno v sluchae s Uzbekistanom eto dolzhno bit amoralnim............

Po vyshe ukazannymi stranami gde oni ustanovili kak Vy govorite miny esho mirnoe naselenie ne pogiblo, esli est' u Was informaziya ob etom to podelites' pozhalusta, prosto udivetlno vezde mojno chitat' tolko o tom chto mirnye grazhdane Tadjikistana i Kirgizstana pogibajut ot etih min (kotorye Uzbekistan miniroval). mojete otvetit' Pochemu u Uzbekistana ploxie otnoshenie s sosedjami? dumaete Oni zavidyut chto Uzbekistane grazhdane jyvut lutshe chem u nix? Pochemu vot uzbekov ne lubjat' v CA ?

Bu savolga javob men uchun muxim, o'zim o'zbekligim lekin boshqa respublika fuqarosi bo'lganim uchin xech javob bera olmajman. Qozogistonda bo'lgandim O'zbekiston to'grisida yomon fkirda u erdagilar, xuddi shundai fikrni turkman va tojiklardan eshitdim. Sababi jana shu minalar, chegaralar, tamojnja va xokozo. Oldindan javobingiz uchun raxmat,

xurmat bilan,

[Silence]

Nazionalizm na pravitel`stvennom urovne neodnoznachnaya vesh`. Buduchi rukovoditelem (nevajno kakogo zvena) v podbore kadrov zachatuyu pol`zueshsya kriteriem rodstvennosti, drujeskih otnosheniy ili zemlyachetva. A esli eto delaet prezident, otsuda zeleniy svet vsey strane na to je samoe. Putin to toje ne izbejal soblazana peretashit` pol-Pitera v pravyashuyu elitu Rossi. Eto v chem to logichno blizkim (ludyam tvoey nazional`nosti, svoego kruga, svoey mestnosti nakonez) bolee doveryaesh`. Hotya konechno oataetsya otkririm voprosom ob ih profprigodnosti :)
Chto kasaetsya splochennosti evreev to mojet uzbekam toje stoit ispitat` goneniya faraonov, blujdaniya po pustine i ujasi Holokosta. Togda mojet i stanem splochenneye...:) U evreev ih istoriya zalojenaq ne urovne genov + usilenniy instinkt samosohraneniya i jajda vijit`vo chto bi to ne stalo, a samiy verniy sposob vijit`, kak izvestno, eto obyaedinitsya s sebe podobnim.
Lizo nazionaliama urodlivo (ya iz Fergani i ya nahodilas` tam pri rezne turkov meshetinzev), no yavleniye eto neistrebimo i budet ono na zemle poka ostaetsya hot` kuchka chelovecheskih osobey. Na lichnem primere mogu skazat` chto i ya nemnogo etim virusom zarajena, pzvol`te ne upominat` konkretno nazional`nost` k kotoroy ya imeu predubejdeniye, pust` eto budet na moey (uje neotmivayusheysya :)) sovesti.
Ne nado setovat` po etomu povodu nazionalizma i rasovoy nenavisti, prosto pust` kajdiy stanet dobrey k tomu ot kogo otlichaetsya.
Proshu auditoriyu bit` posnishoditelen k moim mislishkam. :)
Spasibo za vnimaniye,
Silence.

[behruz]

salom hammaga
aslida sizlar aytgan gaplariizi faqat eshitgansizlar.man esa yashaganman. 17 yoshimdaman.1984 yilda Horazm viloyatining Shovot tumanida tugilganman.kegin oyilamiz man 4,5 yoshlarimda turkmenistonga kuchib utishgan.chunki dadam dashoguz shaharidan lekin onam shovotli.kegin ushatda maktabga borganman.1996 yilida hudoga shukurlar bolsin ki horazm viloyatidagi al-horazmi litseyiga kirdim va ushatda 3 yil ukidim ammo 11 sinif songida turkmanistonga utishga majbur boldim.va dashoguz shaharidagi ruslarning litseyiga utdim.va yana hudoga shukurlar bolsin turkiyaga universitetga kirishga hak kozondim. va hozir turkiyada universitetda ukib yuribman.lekin kulimda turkmaniston pasporti .aslida bizlar davlat tarafindan kelganimiz uchin haliyam turkmanlar orasida oz vatanimni va madaniyatimizni soginib yashaypman.turkiyaga uzbekistonning student yubormagani uchin bu erlarda uzbeklarni uchratish juda kiyin.biz faqat choyhona va hatlarda uzbeklar bilan gaplashamiz.
endi asosiy mavzuga kaytaylik.
man shunchalik yil turkmansitonda yashadim va shunaka narsalar buvotti ki ohiri nima bilan tugaydi hudo biladi.butun ishlardan uzbeklar,kozoklar,ruslar va boshqa millatlar ham uvolnyat kilib yotishibdi.universitetlarga ham faqat turkmanlar ni olishadi.man shunaka woonderkind uzbek bollani taniyman lekin hech kaysisi ukishga kirishaolmadi.lekin katta gidir bir tupoy ,durak bir turkman darrov kiradi.
Hatto shunaka bir konon ham bor.turkmanistondagi butun davlat boshliklar turkman bulishi kerak.va shu vaqt ikkita uzbek odam bor bir erda boshlik bugan.birisi man yashagan shahar pasportstol nachalnik.birisi yam markazi bankaning dashoguzdagi filyalida direktormish.
maktablar,universitetlar boshqa okuv joylarida faqat turkmancha dars berishvottila.bugun na bir ish na bir ukish kurgan uzbeklar ertaga kim bolib kolishlarini mandan yahshi bilasilar..turkmanistonda boyvachchalar sheflar turkman uzbeklar esa bogda ,otizlarda,turkmanlarning uylarida " kul" kabi bolib ishlashga majbur bolib kolishyapti.va ularning maksadi ham shu edi boshqa millatlarni kul kilib ishlatish.
mani kanaka kilib universitetga kirganimni sorsh akliizga kelgan bolsa?
man ekzamenni ashkabatda turk davlatlar fondiga topshirdim.va bizni testlarimizni turkiyada turklar tekishirishdi.
va eng yomoni uzbeklarning kopisi yol topolmasdan pasport olgan vaqt millatini turkman deb yozdirishyapti.manimcha juda oshirishib yuborishdi.endi biza shu kamokdan kutilib chikkan bolla ,kizla boshqa yutlardan ularga yordam berishga harakat kilishimiz kerak deb oylayman,bizanni ushatda kolgan uzbeklarga yordam berishimiz kerak .ishona olmaysiz kundan kunga oyila ning moddi ahvoli itnikidan battar bolib boryapdi.
endi mani kilishim kerak bugan ish esa tezrok turkiyadan evropaga yoki amerikaga ketish .Amerikaga ketaolsak ular bizani topib bilishmaydi va bizaga hech narsa kilib bilmaydilar.
eeeeh hayot de gurbatda kolishga majbur busang.

[tokiec]

neeee, Freestyler, so mnoy vsyo v poryadke, i s logikoy toje.

karta na to i karta, chto bi po ney orientirovat`sya. ya tak dumayu, nikto ne budet minirovat` granicu vsplosh` pust` daje otrezok, no ne vsplosh! a to chto domashniye jivotniye pogimayut, ya bi rassmatrival kak nashupivaniye chistih mest. ???

hotyaaa fig yego znayet, trudno prinimat` resheniye takogo roda, bol`shaya uj otvetstvennost`

[Freestyler]

Tem, kto absolutno lishyon dara provodit' analogii:

Ya upomyanul USA a takje Kiotovskoye soglasehniya i WTO tol'ko dlya togo, chtobi pokazat', chto daje takoye velikoye gos-vo kak USA greshit napravo i nalevo. I vryad li sleduyet Uzbekistanu poddakivat' i potakat' deystviyam USA.

Lvinuyu dolu finansirovaniya WTO poluchayet ot USA, sootvetsvenno yest' vse osnovaniya somnevat'sya v spravedlivosti resheniy WTO.
Dva nedavnih grubeyshih narusheniya svobodnoy torgovli, na kotoroye WTO predpochitayet zakrivat' glaza:
1. Nedavneye resheniye Busha subsidirovat' agricultural sector
2. Tarifi na vvoz evropeyskoy i yaponskoy stali v USA.

Kioto: Buduchi glavnim zagryaznitelem orkujayushey sredi (a USA otvechayet za boleye chem 50% mirovih obyomov vihlopnih gazov) USA cinichno ne hochet podpisivat' soglashniye.

Vot pochemu USA mne - ne barometr. Vot pochemu vse bol'she i bol'she stran v mire ubejdayutsya, chto vneshnyaya politika USA - samaya visokomernaya, cinichnaya i egoistichnaya. Yesli dlya nekotorih eti vot ponyatiya vkluchayet v sebya pragmatizm, to uj ya mogu tol'ko sochuvstvovat' etomu cheloveku...

Blije k topiku:

Ya ne otrical, chto luboye gos-vo vedyot politiku ishodya iz svoih interesov. (Ne nado dokazivat' 2*2=4, stud)
Problema v tom, chto mi - Uzbekistanci - ne odni v Central'noy Azii, u nas yest' sosedi, s kotorimi yesli daje nekotoriye nashi "pragmatiki" ne hotyat schitat'sya, mi vinujdeni schitat'sya... Eto, pover'te mne, yest' i doljno dit' v nashih real'nih dolgosrochnih pragmaticheksih celyah... A nazivat' nashu nineshnuyu politiku po otnosheniyu bratyev-sosedey pragmatichnoy u menya yazik ne povarachivayetsya.

Chto mi nabludayem seychas?.. Voprosi, zadanniye Reuterom zastavlyayut prezadumat'sya... Raz nas i v samom dele ne dolublivayut sosedi, znachit chto-to ne to s nashey vneshney politikoy... Znachit nam grozit ostat'ya samodovol'nimi, visokomernimi i cinichnimi psihami odinochkami v regione. Mol nas bol'she, mi umneye, mi bogache (statistika prosto nepravil'naya poka), mi sil'niye i voobshe mi samiye central'niye v Central'noy Azii...

Ya tut zaglyadival v topik pro Palestino_Izrail'skiy konflikt, i - surprise-surprise - natknulsya na posti <stud>a, kotoriy zashishal nedavnuyu reznu so storoni Izraila... Nu yesli etot chelovek i Sharona opravdivayet, to dokazivat', chto protivopehotniye mini eto myagko govorya nehorosho - vsyo ravno chto protirat' ochki slepomu cheloveku...

Prav bil ya, koye kakiye obshechelovecheskiye cennosti chujdi nashim "pragmatikam"... Tyajoliy sluchay, hronicheskiy, s chastimi recedivami :)

Treat the others the way you want to be treated yourself!

[stud]

Freestyler (May 21, 2002 11:55):

Blije k topiku:

Ya ne otrical, chto luboye gos-vo vedyot politiku ishodya iz svoih interesov. (Ne nado dokazivat' 2*2=4, stud)
Problema v tom, chto mi - Uzbekistanci - ne odni v Central'noy Azii, u nas yest' sosedi, s kotorimi yesli daje nekotoriye nashi "pragmatiki" ne hotyat schitat'sya, mi vinujdeni schitat'sya... Eto, pover'te mne, yest' i doljno dit' v nashih real'nih dolgosrochnih pragmaticheksih celyah... A nazivat' nashu nineshnuyu politiku po otnosheniyu bratyev-sosedey pragmatichnoy u menya yazik ne povarachivayetsya.

pomenshe demagogii dear Freestyler, ti luchshe skazal bi kakoy alternativniy put bil u Uzbekistana dlya reshenie problemi ohrani granits ot vneshnoy ugrozi (vse taki vooruzhennie islamisti voshli iz territorii sosednoy strani v Uzbekistan, bila realnaya neobhodimost effektivnoy ohrani granitsi dlya sohraneniya mira i poryadka vnutri strani).



Chto mi nabludayem seychas?.. Voprosi, zadanniye Reuterom zastavlyayut prezadumat'sya... Raz nas i v samom dele ne dolublivayut sosedi, znachit chto-to ne to s nashey vneshney politikoy... Znachit nam grozit ostat'ya samodovol'nimi, visokomernimi i cinichnimi psihami odinochkami v regione. Mol nas bol'she, mi umneye, mi bogache (statistika prosto nepravil'naya poka), mi sil'niye i voobshe mi samiye central'niye v Central'noy Azii...


Govorish s vneshnoy politikoy neto, a chto imenno kak vsegda tol'ko tebe izvestno :)

To chto sosedi ne lyubyat drug-druga rasprostroneno pochti vezde, niderlandsi ne dolyubivayut nemtsev, franzusi nemtsev, polyaki russkih etc.
Prichini razlichnie - istoricheskie faktori, yazikovie, religioznie, rasovie otlichiya, razlichiya v traditsiyah, obraza zhizni etc.

To chto Uzbeki "populyarnie" v regione mozhno obyasnit s neskolkimi faktorami, v chastnosti, chto Uzbekistan yavlyaetsya edinstvennoy stranoi regiona, granicheshaya so vsemi stranami Tsentralnoy Azii (de-fakto raspolozhena v tsentre regiona). K tomu zhe uzbeki sostavlyayut pochti polovinu naseleniya regiona, vo vseh sosednih respublikah est uzbekskie menshinstva.

V dannoe vremya u vseh sosedey bituet urodliviy natsionalizm i k sozheleniyu ot etogo tozhe stradayut uzbeki v vide natsionalnih menshinstv, razbrosannie po vsemu regionu.

V sluchae Kyrgyzstanom, gde okazivaetsya uzbeki podvergayutsya diskriminatsiyam vinit Uzbekistan nepravilno. Sobitiya 90-h godov (reznya uzbekov so storoni kyrgyzov) govorit o tom, chto uzhe v te vremena bili etnicheskaya nepriyazn po otnosheniyu uzbekam. Prichinu diskriminatsii uzbekov v Kyrgyzstane sleduet iskat v samom Kyrgyzstane, nikakoe resheniya drugoy strani ne dolzhno sluzhit osnovaniyam dlya diskriminatsii etnicheskogo menshinstva v strane.

Ochen informativno bilo pochitat soobsheniya Afandi, Reuters takzhe Alkogolika, kotorie dayut yasnuyu kartinu proishodyashego. Problema zaklyuchaetsya ne vo "vneshnoy politiki" UZ a v bituyushom natsionalizme v sosednih stran.

[stud]

Freestyler (May 21, 2002 11:55):
Tem, kto absolutno lishyon dara provodit' analogii:

Ya upomyanul USA a takje Kiotovskoye soglasehniya i WTO tol'ko dlya togo, chtobi pokazat', chto daje takoye velikoye gos-vo kak USA greshit napravo i nalevo. I vryad li sleduyet Uzbekistanu poddakivat' i potakat' deystviyam USA.


"greh" ponyatie moralnoe i otnositelnoe, to chto amoralnoe komu-to vpolne normalnoe drugomu.

Lvinuyu dolu finansirovaniya WTO poluchayet ot USA, sootvetsvenno yest' vse osnovaniya somnevat'sya v spravedlivosti resheniy WTO.

opyat subyektivnie neobostovannie suzhdeniya. Ya somnevayus, chto u tebya est dostotochno information o tom kak WTO funktzioniruet. Kazhdiy chlen WTO imeet 1 golos (!), i kazhdaya strana sama opredelyaet v kakih soglasheniyah uchastvovat, v kakih net, v kakom sektore sohranit tarifi a kakie otrasli liberalizirovat itd.

Kazhdiy gosudarstvo chlen uchatvuet v finanzirovanii budgeta WTO ishodya iz svoei doli v mirovoy torgovli, US imeet platit okolo 15% ot vsego budgeta, strani EU vse vmeste bolshe 20% (vse strani EU imeyut obsheyu vneshnuyu torgovuyu politiku).


Dva nedavnih grubeyshih narusheniya svobodnoy torgovli, na kotoroye WTO predpochitayet zakrivat' glaza:
1. Nedavneye resheniye Busha subsidirovat' agricultural sector
2. Tarifi na vvoz evropeyskoy i yaponskoy stali v USA.


1. dumaesh EU ne subsidiruet agricultural sector ? na samom dele US agricultural sector more open then EU's one, i razvivayushie strani imeyut bolshe dostupa k rinkam US chem v EU.

2. esli chital GATT soglasheniya, posmotri na Art. XIX - Safegard Measures. WTO Law ostavlyaet za gosudarstvami pravo vremenno primenyat safegard measures to protect domestic production pri opredelennih usloviyah.


Kioto: Buduchi glavnim zagryaznitelem orkujay