Great Turks

[Aziz]

Assalamo Alaikum
Brothers and Sisters
please right a name of a great Turkic man or woman and why he is great
thanks


You Uzbek-Saudi brother: Aziz

[Torcoman]

Assalamo Alaikum
Brothers and Sisters
please right a name of a great Turkic man or woman and why he is great
thanks
You Uzbek-Saudi brother: Aziz


why is that?
for whom?

[cool-gafur]

jessica simpson , yeah shees hot shit son

[Torcoman]

jessica simpson , yeah shees hot shit son


hey cool-gafur, show your picture at the left to jessica simpson, so she may schulade a night for you;)

what a sexy pic is that, you would conquer the planet of girls...

and all the hollywood and beverly hills girls will be in a queue for meeting with you... but if you show it

so
jessica simpson is not Turkish, and our cool-guy is not a Turk too, so dont trust him, he has a head-ache but he doesnt know the location

[Mogul]

Mehmet Fatih - The Conqueror of Constantinople is the greatest Turk.

[Torcoman]

Mehmet Fatih - The Conqueror of Constantinople is the greatest Turk.

you mean "Fatih Sultan Mehmet"
and you mean "Istanbul" i think

[Aziz]

why is that?
for whom?

Just to remember our ancestors and to look forward to be like them

[Mogul]

you mean "Fatih Sultan Mehmet"
and you mean "Istanbul" i think
If this is what, that will not let you sleep tonight, then yes.

[Pax]

you mean "Fatih Sultan Mehmet"
and you mean "Istanbul" i think
Chill down :cool:
Mehmet II (the Conquerer) conquered Constantinople, the capital of Byzantine Empire, but now it's Istanbul.

[Pax]

Zahriddin Muhammad Babur, the founder of the Empire of the Great Moghuls in India, a man of letters, a poet.

[dervish]

Alp Arslan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alp_Arslan

[oğuz]

Nasrettin hoca:rolleyes:

http://www.eso-es.net/kultursanat/images/202.jpg

[Oriyon_farr]

Alisher Navoi - great poet

[erk]

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (Founder of the Turkish Republic) (1881-1938)

[referee]

Al Bukhariy
Al Termeziy
Abu Ali ibn Sina
Al Farabi
Al Beruniy
Alisher Navoi
etc...

[oğuz]

Hazerfen ahmet çelebi ;)

http://www.damlayayinevi.com.tr/images/491.jpg

[Oriyon_farr]

Al Bukhariy
Al Termeziy
Abu Ali ibn Sina
Al Farabi
Al Beruniy
Alisher Navoi
etc...

Al Bukhariy - tajik
Al Termeziy - tajik
Abu Ali ibn Sina - tajik
Al Farabi - kazah
Al Beruniy - tajik
Alisher Navoi - uzbek

[referee]

Al Bukhariy - tajik
Al Termeziy - tajik
Abu Ali ibn Sina - tajik
Al Farabi - kazah
Al Beruniy - tajik
Alisher Navoi - uzbek

they had lived in what's now Uzb-n and CA before uzbek or tajik became an ethnicity, they were all turkic people who were also influenced by Farsi (not Tajik) culture. Uzbeks, and other CA nations, aren't purely turkic or persian, they are neither but both. IMHO, one can't strictly draw a line between what was turkic and persian in CA, because it was a combination of both that made CA unique. The only common denominator was Islam, which united and motivated people to create and develop...

[BOZ-OK]

Pir-i Turkistan, Hoca Ahmed Yesevi....

[Oriyon_farr]

they had lived in what's now Uzb-n and CA before uzbek or tajik became an ethnicity, they were all turkic people who were also influenced by Farsi (not Tajik) culture. Uzbeks, and other CA nations, aren't purely turkic or persian, they are neither but both. IMHO, one can't strictly draw a line between what was turkic and persian in CA, because it was a combination of both that made CA unique. The only common denominator was Islam, which united and motivated people to create and develop...

Какой ты умный... Пишешь "aren't purely turkic or persian, they are neither but both", "it was a combination of both that made CA unique" и в то же время их называешь тюрками. По твоему, раз человек тыс. лет назад жил на территории нынешнего Узбекистана, то он обязательно тюрок?
Весь мир знает Авиценну, Аль-Беруни, Аль-Бухари, как представителей иранского народа (таджиков).

[oğuz]

Piri Reis ;)

http://www.volint.it/piroga/piroga2/pirireis.jpg

[referee]

Пишешь "aren't purely turkic or persian, they are neither but both", "it was a combination of both that made CA unique" и в то же время их называешь тюрками. По твоему, раз человек тыс. лет назад жил на территории нынешнего Узбекистана, то он обязательно тюрок?
Весь мир знает Авиценну, Аль-Беруни, Аль-Бухари, как представителей иранского народа (таджиков).

Calling our descendants as uzbek or tajik etc is misleading and historically wrong. Yes, most were turkic by their descent, but also persian by their culture, and muslim by their religion - this combination makes up a turkic CA.
Many people may think that Avicenna was persian because he wrote in farsi, but farsi was an official language of the time. If we follow your argument, then uzbeks are in fact tajik?! Or maybe Uzbeks and tajiks were Arab as well, because many our descendants wrote and studied in Arabic too. Or maybe some of us are Russians because they only or mostly speak Russian?

IMHO, the nationalities, uzbek, tajik, kazakh etc, as we know them now were formed very recently and as a result of the colonial conquest that made it essential for colonisers to label people and thus rule them. Before those ethnic and tribal lines were blurred, and most people associated themselves with the religion and location. Pan-Turkism appeared as an ideology in the early 20century and was the consequence of the nationalistic movement in and gradual collapse of the Ottoman empire.

[Oriyon_farr]

For referee

Извини, что буду на русском писать, так как английский у меня хромает.
С чего ты это взял, что Авиценна был именно тюрком? Авиценна родился в Бухаре, где всегда был населен таджиками, жил во времена таджикского государства Саманидов (также как и Аль-Бухари и Аль-Беруни), его родным языком был таджикский (дари). Писал на таджикском (дари) и арабском языках. Его мама Ситора была из Бухары, отец из юга (с Хорасана). По историческим данным, у него были иранские черты лица (тогдашные тюрки в основном были с азиатскими внешностьями). Вот все эти аргументы ты оставил в сторону и взял и назвал его тюрком. По каким это соображениям ты его тюрком называешь? Какие у тебя аргументы, кроме того, что фарси был общим для того времени языком?

[referee]

Извини, что буду на русском писать, так как английский у меня хромает.

whatever language suits you is fine.


С чего ты это взял, что Авиценна был именно тюрком?

Current nationalities of CA are often assigned post-factum, i.e. ahistorical discription of the past identities in terms of current identities. Is there any factual proof that Avicenna thought of himself as uzbek or tajik? Of course, not, because those two identities did not exist then. So, the concept of Turkicness of present day should be distinguished with turkicness of the past times, when political and social identities were not drawn along nationalistic lines of today. One need to bear in mind that contemporary identities of uzbekness, tajikness, kazakhness, etc were drawn by Russians, and then reinstated by territorial jurisdiction by the Soviets - this created this artifical boundaries between uzbeks, tajiks etc.


Авиценна родился в Бухаре, где всегда был населен таджиками, жил во времена таджикского государства Саманидов (также как и Аль-Бухари и Аль-Беруни), его родным языком был таджикский (дари). Писал на таджикском (дари) и арабском языках. Его мама Ситора была из Бухары, отец из юга (с Хорасана). По историческим данным, у него были иранские черты лица (тогдашные тюрки в основном были с азиатскими внешностьями). Вот все эти аргументы ты оставил в сторону и взял и назвал его тюрком.

Brother, there are many people in uzb-n who speak tajik (Dari), look less "asian", and come from Bukhara and Samarkand, and call themselves turkic - are you gonna say that it's wrong and they are not entitled to their identity? I think those turkic people who spoke Farsi used to be called sarti at some point. So there is no one type of Uzbeks, which can be drawn on the textbook, this way leads to where Hitler tried to get... We need to be wary of the narrow political nationalism of today and the historical reality of CA, the former is ahistorical, popularistic and distructive.

По каким это соображениям ты его тюрком называешь? Какие у тебя аргументы, кроме того, что фарси был общим для того времени языком?

I call him Turkic because most inhabitants of CA at the time were of Turkic origin, but it's not turkic as we now understand. CA was not home to one single culture, but a mixture of different cultures were added to the turkic origin. It's a mistake to pretend there pure turkic people and pure iranian people in CA, they are the same people speaking different languages.

[Oriyon_farr]

[QUOTE=referee]

Вы очень хорошо и умело играете словами и понятиями. Однако перемешаете все и вся, и в итоге все сводите примерно к тому, что "все хорошое, что происходила на территории нынешнего Узбекистана - это заслуга тюрков, а другие народы жили так себе".
Но, всеравно, зря пытаетесь объявить Авиценну тюрком, так как все исторические факты и аргументы свидетельствуют о принадлежности Авиценны к таджикскому (иранскому) народу и так написано во всех энциклопедиях мира.

[Feridun]

I call him Turkic because most inhabitants of CA at the time were of Turkic origin, but it's not turkic as we now understand. CA was not home to one single culture, but a mixture of different cultures were added to the turkic origin. It's a mistake to pretend there pure turkic people and pure iranian people in CA, they are the same people speaking different languages.
http://www.ku.edu/carrie/texts/carrie_books/paksoy-2/cam3.html
Also when it is said Abu Ali Sina was tajik it means he was of persian origin as saying Navayi was uzbek refers to be of chaghatay(turk) origin.You are speaking like scientist, but not giving anyfact that inhibitants of Maveraunnehir were turks at that time.Please don't mix CA with Maveraunnehir. CA is a very huge region. Maveraunnehir is a part of it like Tataristan being a part of Russia.

[Feridun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukhari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarezmia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biruni

[Torcoman]

oriyon sen git ilk önce biraz kitap oku, ondan sonra gel burada brşeyler yaz,
moskova sokaklaında sağdan soldan duyduğun şeyleri buraya yazmakla olmuyor bu işler

hala Turkistan da ne işin var senin, ne yüzsüz herifsin sen

pax hala bu adam buralarda yazıyor, önlem almayı düşünmüyormusunuz acaba, bildiği herşey yanlış, türk düşmanı ve insanları sinir etmekten hoşlanıyor, bu adamlara bir önlem alınamazmı acaba, madem herşey sernest burada, küfür de serbest olsun o zaman

[referee]

http://www.ku.edu/carrie/texts/carrie_books/paksoy-2/cam3.html
Also when it is said Abu Ali Sina was tajik it means he was of persian origin as saying Navayi was uzbek refers to be of chaghatay(turk) origin.


You are speaking like scientist, but not giving anyfact that inhibitants of Maveraunnehir were turks at that time.Please don't mix CA with Maveraunnehir. CA is a very huge region. Maveraunnehir is a part of it.

True, I've not given many facts to prove the case, but no other facts were given to prove that CA at the time was inhabited by uzbeks or tajiks. True, CA is bigger than Maverannahr, and turkicness is less opaque in the rest of CA because there's no such language confusion.

But let's see what's in the article you provided:


Abu Bakr Muhammad b. Ja'farNarshaki, from the village of Narshak in the Bukhara oasis, wrote a history of Bukhara in Arabic which he presented to the Samanid ruler Nuh b. Nasr either in 332/943 or in 337/948.

Then he says:

Narshaki's work can be regarded as the earliest preserved city history in the Persian language, the beginning of a genre which continued to be popular in Central Asia until the ninetenth century even when Uzbeks, Turkmen, Kazaks, Kirgiz and Uighurs dominated the scene.


Now on the sources of Ca history:

In any study of Muslim Central Asia the books written in Persian are the basic sources for the history and culture of that part of the world.

The lingua franca was Persian at the time as I said, which does not mean that people who spoke were necessarly by default Persian.


It should be remembered that, where today Turkish-speaking peoples and tribes roam or settled, before the eleventh centuty various Iranian-speaking peoples, such as the Bacrians, Khwarazmians, Sogdians and the widely spread Skas, dominated the landscape. Their cultural heritage persisted and the Turks mixed with the Iranians. As the eleventh-century author Mahmudd al- Kashgari in his Turkish dictionary said tasiz Turk bolmas, bassiz bork bolmas, 'there is no Turk without an Iranian, [as] no cap without a head [to hold it].'


After such prolonged fusion I think it's more accurate to emphasize the combined Persian-Turkic heritage of CA. Unfortunately, due to the political tensions between Turkish and Iranian interests, it's very unpopular to admit that.

[Feridun]

http://www.ku.edu/carrie/texts/carrie_books/paksoy-2/cam3.html
Also when it is said Abu Ali Sina was tajik it means he was of persian origin as saying Navayi was uzbek refers to be of chaghatay(turk) origin.



True, I've not given many facts to prove the case, but no other facts were given to prove that CA at the time was inhabited by uzbeks or tajiks. True, CA is bigger than Maverannahr, and turkicness is less opaque in the rest of CA because there's no such language confusion.

But let's see what's in the article you provided:



Then he says:




Now on the sources of Ca history:



The lingua franca was Persian at the time as I said, which does not mean that people who spoke were necessarly by default Persian.





After such prolonged fusion I think it's more accurate to emphasize the combined Persian-Turkic heritage of CA. Unfortunately, due to the political tensions between Turkish and Iranian interests, it's very unpopular to admit that.
My brother you ignoring so much scientific studies about historical lands of CA to prove that population of Maveraunnehir was turkic origin. Not only Narshakhi was who said population of Bukhara was sogdian(persian).Any scientific study doesn't show turks were dominant of Maveraunnehir before 10. century. Also sarts are mix of Persian and turkic race as Bulgars. The difference is that in Bulgarian case slavic identities dominated turk identities.

[referee]

все сводите примерно к тому, что "все хорошое, что происходила на территории нынешнего Узбекистана - это заслуга тюрков, а другие народы жили так себе".

Nope, I'm trying to say that CA achievements are down to the people of CA, all people of CA, who should be seen in wider connotation than Turks, as understood today, because that would preclude our many forefathers who lived in CA but also spoke Arabic and Farsi... I'm for a more inclusive Turkicness....


Но, всеравно, зря пытаетесь объявить Авиценну тюрком, так как все исторические факты и аргументы свидетельствуют о принадлежности Авиценны к таджикскому (иранскому) народу и так написано во всех энциклопедиях мира.

I'm not labeling Avicenna as Turk, but I don't support labelling him as Iranian either. He was neither, yet both, he was Farsi-speaking Bukharan - that's how he'd describe himself IMHO. I don't know if his forefathers migrated from Iran proper, if you can prove it I'll agree to his Iranian roots, otherwise he's more Farsi-speaking turkistanian. With regards to whose hero he is- claiming someone as a national hero is more a political move not a historical exercise.

[Feridun]

Herneyse siz İbni Sina'yı, Biruni'yi imam Buhari'yi türk kabul edin biz de fars. :) Ne olacak sanki. Sonuçta hepsi hem türk hem fars kültürüne hizmet etmediler mi?Bir de bu konuda inatlaşmaya giderek böyle güzel bir konuyu berbat etmek istemiyorum.

[referee]

My brother you ignoring so much scientific studies about historical lands of CA to prove that population of Maveraunnehir was turkic origin.

There's no pure scientific evidence as such to prove either case, it's purely the niche of historians, who often disagree on many issues. And as you know, history is a political prostitute that likes the victorious and powerful.
I actually agree that Mav-r has turkic origins due to the large migration throughout the region. But I disagree that one can easily pinpoint where turkic (or persian) culture starts and where it finishes in Mav-r, at some stages one dominated and at other stages the other, but people mixed, hence fusion of cultures, which is unique to CA.


Also sarts are mix of Persian and turkic race as Bulgars. The difference is that in Bulgarian case slavic identities dominated turk identities.

I don't know much abour Bulgars, but it seems that central to our discussion is your assumptions about infallability and persistance of races, and my belief in race as a flawed social construct which was politically imposed on humanity post-factum...

[Ulug'bek]

With due respect to all participants in this thread, I desagree with this type of discussions that are allmost only wasting of time.

Threads like that, most of the time, fuel nationalism which will bring at the current time only negative results. The time of nationalism is over. Now what could help people of our region is more integration among them which requires ignoring and skipping of this type disscussions.

Furthermore, Islam is against nationalism, all we are slaves of one God, followers of one prophet and one book and even mostly followers of one math'hab!

One good idealogy Soviet Union had was internationalism, which advocated by Islam too.

Today, people who care about their nations future and want to see them among prospered ones, are trying to demolish borders between them and their neighbours, with whom they might have had wars for very long times!

Once viewed as a positive factor in establishment of sucsessful state- nationalism, is today weakening and negative factor as we approach globalisation!

I also don't see any worthy reason in having heros in the past, since I believe that nations are all equal and any nation in the world that takes true steps towards progress and advancement, equipped with due means, can advance and prospere, although it will face counter-measures "competion" form developed countries. It is duty of all and every one of us to try our best to be more advanced than "our collegues" in the developed world, with strong beliefe that we are not less or lower than any other human being. Then, with putting the political locomotive on the right direction, we may get the right path to development.

Heros of the past are for the past, what we need today is heros of today and those can only be you and me! And it is only you and me who could help us and our people!
Let's don't forget that people/nations who did not have heroes have advanced and are advancing in the different parts of the world, that is because they are taking serious steps towards development and have sincere will. From here we must start!

Respects.

[Oriyon_farr]

With due respect to all participants in this thread, I desagree with this type of discussions that are allmost only wasting of time.

Threads like that, most of the time, fuel nationalism which will bring at the current time only negative results. The time of nationalism is over. Now what could help people of our region is more integration among them which requires ignoring and skipping of this type disscussions.

Furthermore, Islam is against nationalism, all we are slaves of one God, followers of one prophet and one book and even mostly followers of one math'hab!

One good idealogy Soviet Union had was internationalism, which advocated by Islam too.

Today, people who care about their nations future and want to see them among prospered ones, are trying to demolish borders between them and their neighbours, with whom they might have had wars for very long times!

Once viewed as a positive factor in establishment of sucsessful state- nationalism, is today weakening and negative factor as we approach globalisation!

I also don't see any worthy reason in having heros in the past, since I believe that nations are all equal and any nation in the world that takes true steps towards progress and advancement, equipped with due means, can advance and prospere, although it will face counter-measures "competion" form developed countries. It is duty of all and every one of us to try our best to be more advanced than "our collegues" in the developed world, with strong beliefe that we are not less or lower than any other human being. Then, with putting the political locomotive on the right direction, we may get the right path to development.

Heros of the past are for the past, what we need today is heros of today and those can only be you and me! And it is only you and me who could help us and our people!
Let's don't forget that people/nations who did not have heroes have advanced and are advancing in the different parts of the world, that is because they are taking serious steps towards development and have sincere will. From here we must start!

Respects.

Брат, хорошо сказал! :frndshp: Поддерживаю!

[referee]

Threads like that, most of the time, fuel nationalism which will bring at the current time only negative results. The time of nationalism is over. Now what could help people of our region is more integration among them which requires ignoring and skipping of this type disscussions.

Furthermore, Islam is against nationalism, all we are slaves of one God, followers of one prophet and one book and even mostly followers of one math'hab!


Sometimes talking against nationalism rekindles nationalism, nonetheless, i agree with the spirit of anti-nationalism.

P.S. Soviet concept of "internationalism" was in fact a continuation of the doctrine of nationalism, not it's anti-thesis...

[TurkMen]

Bence şu adam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BClent_Ecevit) :lol:

[bluesky]

With due respect to all participants in this thread, I desagree with this type of discussions that are allmost only wasting of time.

Threads like that, most of the time, fuel nationalism which will bring at the current time only negative results. The time of nationalism is over. Now what could help people of our region is more integration among them which requires ignoring and skipping of this type disscussions.

Furthermore, Islam is against nationalism, all we are slaves of one God, followers of one prophet and one book and even mostly followers of one math'hab!

One good idealogy Soviet Union had was internationalism, which advocated by Islam too.

Today, people who care about their nations future and want to see them among prospered ones, are trying to demolish borders between them and their neighbours, with whom they might have had wars for very long times!

Once viewed as a positive factor in establishment of sucsessful state- nationalism, is today weakening and negative factor as we approach globalisation!

I also don't see any worthy reason in having heros in the past, since I believe that nations are all equal and any nation in the world that takes true steps towards progress and advancement, equipped with due means, can advance and prospere, although it will face counter-measures "competion" form developed countries. It is duty of all and every one of us to try our best to be more advanced than "our collegues" in the developed world, with strong beliefe that we are not less or lower than any other human being. Then, with putting the political locomotive on the right direction, we may get the right path to development.

Heros of the past are for the past, what we need today is heros of today and those can only be you and me! And it is only you and me who could help us and our people!
Let's don't forget that people/nations who did not have heroes have advanced and are advancing in the different parts of the world, that is because they are taking serious steps towards development and have sincere will. From here we must start!

Respects.

It is time for nationalism for any nation but CA and Turkic ones.
It is proud to be a member of a nation for any one but for CA and Turkic people.
Nationalism is great for anyone but CA and Turkic ones.
Nationalism is halal for anyone but a sin for CA and Turkic ones.
Nationalism is good for anyone who wants to occupy Turkic territories and who attempts to kill or exile Turkic communities but bad for those Turkic people who want to defend themselves.

Yeah. You are absolutely right. We get it.

[Ulug'bek]

It is time for nationalism for any nation but CA and Turkic ones.
It is proud to be a member of a nation for any one but for CA and Turkic people.
Nationalism is great for anyone but CA and Turkic ones.
Nationalism is halal for anyone but a sin for CA and Turkic ones.
Nationalism is good for anyone who wants to occupy Turkic territories and who attempts to kill or exile Turkic communities but bad for those Turkic people who want to defend themselves.

Yeah. You are absolutely right. We get it.
Dear bluesky, can you tell me what you mean by nationalism?
Then, can you explain to me how it could contribute in progress of multi-national and multi-cultural countries like Uzbekistan? How relationship between Uzbeks and other nationalities in Uzbekistan must look like according to your view, so they come together in the path to prosperity, while Uzbeks are nationlists? How their relationships with their neigbours should look like if they also choose nationalism?
How and when it could be positive factor? Why we must be nationalists?

Respects.