Human equality in Islam V.S. Christianity:

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Golden Rule in the bible?! See the real Golden Rule in Islam! (http://www.answering-christianity.com/golden_rule_lie.htm)

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"
Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)"

See how Islam came to liberate slaves and end the Judeo-Christian and Pagan slavery, and how the Bible in both the Old and New Testaments promotes slavery.

In Islam:

Are Muslims the "Chosen People" of GOD? If not, then who are? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/chosen_people.htm)No race, color or gender is better than the other.

The gradual ending of slavery in Islam. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/incomplete_rebuttal.htm#slavery)

The liberation of slaves in Islam. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/equality.htm) The ending of the Judeo-Christian and pagan slavery.

Why did slavery exist during Islam? And how did Islam deal with it? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/why_slavery.htm)

"Your Slaves are your brothers" in Islam (http://www.answering-christianity.com/slaves_brothers.htm)

The Prophet divided the food between the slaves and the free. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/divide_food.htm)

Treatment of Slaves in Islam. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/slaves_treatment.htm) If you beat your slave, then you will go to hell.

Can a slave request his freedom from his Muslim Master and be granted his freedom in Islam? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/request_freedom.htm)Yes. The Muslim Master must pay him/her money too to get a nice jump start in life too according to the Noble Quran.

YES, freedom of Religion is allowed in Islam! (http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm)Islam totally disagree with Afghanistan's Taliban or any Muslim State that execute any Muslim for deserting Islam! Islam also totally disagrees with killing any non-Muslim Missionaries trying to spread their religion in Muslim States. See the proof for yourself from the Noble Quran.

Islam prohibits terrorism. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/islam_terrorism.htm)

The woman can not be forced into marriage in Islam. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/cant_force_marriage.htm)

Why did Allah Almighty make lawful for Muslim men to have sexual intercourse with the married women whom are captives of war? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/right_hand_possession.htm)

Is there equality between men and women in Islam? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/spiritual_equality.htm)

What does Allah Almighty say about Justice for all in an Islamic State? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/true_islamic_justice.htm)

Does Islam really allow the killing of innocent unbelievers? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm)

Women have the right and are commanded by Allah Almighty to seek education in Islam. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/women_education.htm)

Prophet Muhammad taking revenges for himself and committing murders is a lie! (http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_personal_revenge.htm) Does Islam really encourage Muslims to take revenge? Absolutely Not!

Forgiveness and revenge in Islam. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/forgiveness_and_revenge_in_islam.htm)There is a difference between being a peaceful person, and a coward hypocrite in Islam.

Why did Muhammad take up arms and Christ didn't? Why did Islam spread by the sword if it were indeed a Religion of Truth, and Christianity didn't? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/by_the_sword.htm)See my response to this misunderstanding. Did you know that even Jesus killed his enemies in the Bible?

Is Ethnic cleansing allowed in Islam? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/ethnic_cleansing.htm)

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Human equality in Christianity?

Introduction: When it comes to human affairs and relations, slavery is one of the back bones of the spine of Christianity and its principles: "All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Timothy 6:1)"


"Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed. (From the RSV Bible, 1 Timothy 6:1)"


"A student is not greater than the teacher. A slave is not greater than the master. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 10:24)"


We clearly see that the Bible is not a book for freeing slaves. Slavery was practiced very badly during the times of Judaism and Christianity, and was fought against and ended during the times of Islam. It is part of the Bible's "teaching" to practice and promote slavery! And fighting it would "slander" or "defame" the teachings of the Bible.


My Challenge: I invite any Jew or Christian to bring me one Bible verse that orders its followers to free slaves!


Slavery and racism in the Bible's Old and New Testaments. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/slaves.htm) (Some of my rebuttals are included).

Killing all the men and enslaving all the women in Deuteronomy 20:13-14. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/right_hand_possession.htm#real_terrorism)


Instant death to those who desert Christianity in the Bible. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/death.htm)

The sinless and perfect men in the Bible who are above all. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible_sinless_men.htm)

Being passive in the Bible- The New Testament according to (Romans 13:1-5) orders us to follow the laws of dictators and murderers and not the laws of GOD. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/passive.htm) Being Coward, Passive and Pathetic in the Bible.


Bad things said about Jesus peace be upon him in the New Testament. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/killer.htm)

The Bible literally allows for the strong to eat the weak. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/strong_eat_weak.htm) See how injustice is done in the Bible. When the influential individual sleeps with his neighbor's wife, then no harm is done to them. But when the the ordinary individual does it, then they get put to death according to the Bible's teachings and commands.

Can a slave request his freedom from his Jewish or Christian Master and be granted his freedom in the Bible? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/request_freedom.htm)No. Slaves are to be inherited forever in the Bible.

Why did Muhammad take up arms and Christ didn't? Why did Islam spread by the sword if it were indeed a Religion of Truth, and Christianity didn't? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/by_the_sword.htm)See my response to this misunderstanding. Did you know that even Jesus killed his enemies in the Bible?


www.answering-christianity.com (http://www.answering-christianity.com)

[Shogird]

video
http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/stoning-t1.rm


link: http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html

[tarafdor]

video
http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/stoning-t1.rm


link: http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html

Kimga shogirdsan.....Djigitga uhshab biror narsa desang chi mavzu buyicha...agarda san bergan link buyicha gapirsak,iymonim komil hristian dunyosining boshqa davlatlarga 1000 yil ichida qilgan qatag'onlarini millionlab keltirish mumkin..bitta eski video parcha bilan savodsiz ekanliyini takrorlab turibsan..peace:lol:

[al-quds muslim]

salamu alaikum,

thank u dear in this subhective topic, that shows how islam deal with arguing other religions, depend on mind arguing, thoughts ,and to take from the other religions real sources ,without shame words or any other spellings that hurt others.

thank u very much

[Jennifer]

Hi,

I looked at one of the web pages you posted:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/islam_terrorism.htm


There are at least a couple of facts that aren't quite accurate.

That page says that over 90% of Americans are Christian. I thought that figure sounded extremely high, so I looked it up and found that
the percentage of Americans who consider themselves Christian is actually only 76%. That sounds about right.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html



Also, the page said:

"The Oklahoma City bombing happened by the CHRISTIAN CULTS group."

I hadn't heard that before. Amazingly enough, just one man was really behind it, Timothy McVeigh, and I don't believe religion had anything to do with his decision. It's pretty well-documented that he was simply very angry at the military for not advancing in the ranks as he thought he should. McVeigh was a right-wing fanatic, to be certain! But, to my knowledge, no Christian group ever had any influence in his decision. He was very anti-American and sympathized with neo-nazis.

Wait -- I just found something:

Some investigators contend that Timothy McVeigh and his accomplice Terry Nichols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Nichols) had ties to Islamic terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism) through Ramzi Yousef (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzi_Yousef), a militant who planned the 1993 WTC Bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_WTC_Bombing), and through a series of meetings with Islamic terror group Abu-Sayyaf (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abu-Sayyaf&action=edit) members in the Philippines. Others suggest he had ties to a radical Christian Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity) group call Elohim City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim_City) near Muldrow, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muldrow%2C_Oklahoma).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh


So -- what's the truth? I can tell you for certain that it isn't always easy to discern!

[ДЖИГИТ]

Hi,

I looked at one of the web pages you posted:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/islam_terrorism.htm


There are at least a couple of facts that aren't quite accurate.

That page says that over 90% of Americans are Christian. I thought that figure sounded extremely high, so I looked it up and found that
the percentage of Americans who consider themselves Christian is actually only 76%. That sounds about right.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html



Also, the page said:

"The Oklahoma City bombing happened by the CHRISTIAN CULTS group."

I hadn't heard that before. Amazingly enough, just one man was really behind it, Timothy McVeigh, and I don't believe religion had anything to do with his decision. It's pretty well-documented that he was simply very angry at the military for not advancing in the ranks as he thought he should. McVeigh was a right-wing fanatic, to be certain! But, to my knowledge, no Christian group ever had any influence in his decision. He was very anti-American and sympathized with neo-nazis.

Wait -- I just found something:

Some investigators contend that Timothy McVeigh and his accomplice Terry Nichols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Nichols) had ties to Islamic terrorism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism) through Ramzi Yousef (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzi_Yousef), a militant who planned the 1993 WTC Bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_WTC_Bombing), and through a series of meetings with Islamic terror group Abu-Sayyaf (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abu-Sayyaf&action=edit) members in the Philippines. Others suggest he had ties to a radical Christian Identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity) group call Elohim City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim_City) near Muldrow, Oklahoma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muldrow%2C_Oklahoma).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh


So -- what's the truth? I can tell you for certain that it isn't always easy to discern!

Hi Jennifer, as for the percentage, I think it is of not vital importance, that's what I believe, however regarding Timothy McVeigh, I would advise you to visit www.prisonplanet.com (http://www.prisonplanet.com) or www.inforwars.com (http://www.inforwars.com) for documentaries about 9/11 and Oklahoma bombings, 1993 WTC bombings, you can download them in the forum here, someone had posted links for Alex Jones films (everyone who watched was shocked, believe me), just search, watch those documentaries (by independent western media) and then judge !!!

[Jennifer]

Salom DJIGIT.

The percentage is important only because if one fact is not correct, it makes me wonder what else is not quite correct.

The other sites are interesting, no doubt! However, what I really don't see is verifiable sources. I'm not saying they're wrong, because I certainly cannot prove that. However, I don't see validation for their claims.

I was really shocked when I read that 46% of all Americans approve of torture! However, when I clicked on the link, I found that only 2,006 out of the approximately 296 million people were contacted for the survey. For me, 7 percent of the entire population isn't large enough of a survey to make that claim. Even then, the largest percentage of all answers went to the group that opposed torture.

Again, I'm not saying that your information is wrong at all. But, for me to accept it as fact, I need more verifiable sources.

And it's very tough, because sometimes some of these sites sound so convincing!

[ДЖИГИТ]

Salom DJIGIT.

The percentage is important only because if one fact is not correct, it makes me wonder what else is not quite correct.

The other sites are interesting, no doubt! However, what I really don't see is verifiable sources. I'm not saying they're wrong, because I certainly cannot prove that. However, I don't see validation for their claims.

I was really shocked when I read that 46% of all Americans approve of torture! However, when I clicked on the link, I found that only 2,006 out of the approximately 296 million people were contacted for the survey. For me, 7 percent of the entire population isn't large enough of a survey to make that claim. Even then, the largest percentage of all answers went to the group that opposed torture.

Again, I'm not saying that your information is wrong at all. But, for me to accept it as fact, I need more verifiable sources.

And it's very tough, because sometimes some of these sites sound so convincing!

It is clear that when making survey, any agency does that on a small group of people, it is just impossible to do a survey on the whole populaiton, it is evident. But leave surveys alone, pay attention to facts, and aren't Bible sources verifiable for you? many arguments and issues are given with the links and quotes from OT and NT, from many christian sources, I guess they should be verifiable for you if you are a christian.

[Jennifer]

I guess they should be verifiable for you if you are a christian.

Sorry, I'm not Christian!


From an earlier post:

I would advise you to visit www.prisonplanet.com (http://www.prisonplanet.com/) or www.inforwars.com (http://www.inforwars.com)

Are you sure about the latter? I didn't find anything really at all there.

[Jennifer]

I did find something on one of the sites that I think is a mistake:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/chosen_people.htm

"Muslims believe that the idea of "Chosen People" is a Jewish lie that was fabricated and inserted into the Bible to make the People of Israel be the Superior over all nations. The Bible, however, admits that it got corrupted by the Jews themselves, thus making their bogus claims get flushed right down the toilet."


It's my understanding that the idea of a "chosen" people has nothing to do with favortism at all. At the time of Abraham, the world was very polytheistic -- people were worshipping various gods and had statues and who-knows-what that they worshipped. What I've always heard is that God chose Abraham simply to spread the word of monotheism, and that was it. So, the word chosen meant nothing more than being appointed messenger to tell the world that Creator of the world is One.

Edit: Whoa! I'm afraid your site has awfully lot of misinformation! I just found this:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/jewish_ritual_murder.htm

At the dawn of civilization, the blood rite, in which human blood is drunk from the body of a still-living victim, was known to many tribes. However, only one people, that has never progressed beyond the Stone Age, has continued to practice the blood rite and ritual murder. This people are know to the world as Jews. Arnold Toynbee, a noted scholar, has called the Jews "a fossil people."

I don't know a great deal about Judaism, but I do know that blood is strictly forbidden! Religious Jews can't even consume beef unless it's been specially prepared to get rid of any blood.

I don't wish to anger you, and I do support Islam, but there's no reason for that site to keep on spreading the same vicious rumors.

I think that a lot of the problems of the world today stem from a huge misunderstanding of various cultures. I'm not Christian, and I'm not Jewish, but neither religion is "evil" and the website does great harm in propagating falsehoods.

[ДЖИГИТ]

Sorry, I'm not Christian!


From an earlier post:



Are you sure about the latter? I didn't find anything really at all there.

Here's a link to MArtial Law film by Alex jones, http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/december2004/021204martiallaw.htm

also see "Police state" by Alex jones, I think we've had links for free movies by Alex Jones in the movie section, Jennifer you'll need to ask admin about those links.

[ДЖИГИТ]

I did find something on one of the sites that I think is a mistake:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/chosen_people.htm

"Muslims believe that the idea of "Chosen People" is a Jewish lie that was fabricated and inserted into the Bible to make the People of Israel be the Superior over all nations. The Bible, however, admits that it got corrupted by the Jews themselves, thus making their bogus claims get flushed right down the toilet."


It's my understanding that the idea of a "chosen" people has nothing to do with favortism at all. At the time of Abraham, the world was very polytheistic -- people were worshipping various gods and had statues and who-knows-what that they worshipped. What I've always heard is that God chose Abraham simply to spread the word of monotheism, and that was it. So, the word chosen meant nothing more than being appointed messenger to tell the world that Creator of the world is One.

Well, yes of course that's how we all would like to see it, but however, reality is far away, if you pay a little attention to modern jewish sate, and if you have ever been there, one can notice from their ideology, their worldview, that they (jews - zionists) see other people and nations as "GOYS" which is clearly noticable in "Protocols of Elderers" (you will also get the meaning of what GOY means), by the way that protocol and a link to it is available here in the forum, I think same religious board. Just look through, you will get an idea.

[Jennifer]

"Protocols of Elderers"


Do you mean the Procotols of Zion?Actually, a great deal of research has been conducted into that. It was written by (non-Jewish) Russians a little over 100 years ago. Its authenticity has been disproven.


Edit: I found a decent site which explains how the "Protocols of Zion" was plagiarized from a fiction work (Joly's "Dialogues in Hell"). The exposure of the fraud was allegedly first written in the "London Times" in 1921 by Philip Graves.


http://emperors-clothes.com/antisem/times-pdf.htm


Personally, I think it's very important to use unbiased sources, like "The Times." If a Jewish group tried to disprove the accusation, naturally they're biased and the source would not be taken seriously. The same should hold for all religions.


Obviously, any political or religious organization is only going to publish information that is extremely biased and in their own self-interest!

Also, from Wikipedia, a non-religious source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

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Do you mean the Procotols of Zion?Actually, a great deal of research has been conducted into that. It was written by (non-Jewish) Russians a little over 100 years ago. Its authenticity has been disproven.

Hahahaaa. of course labeling someone else is a good way of running away from responsibility, from history we know that jews used any method and way to forge events and scripts, I am not surprised at shifting the blame on someone else, they are good at it!

[Jennifer]

Well, yes of course that's how we all would like to see it

Do you have an unbiased source or a Jewish one that says that the concept of the chosen people is one of superiority? I'd very much like to see it. You could be right! I just haven't run across it.

[Jennifer]

Hahahaaa. of course labeling someone else is a good way of running away from responsibility, from history we know that jews used any method and way to forge events and scripts, I am not surprised at shifting the blame on someone else, they are good at it!

Wait a minute. I really want to understand. Why wouldn't you believe a non-Jewish source and many other sources that have disproven it?

I'm trying to understand how you think.

[ДЖИГИТ]

Wait a minute. I really want to understand. Why wouldn't you believe a non-Jewish source and many other sources that have disproven it?

I'm trying to understand how you think.

First fo all how can you prove it is a non-jewish source? How? Nohow!!!


Do you have an unbiased source or a Jewish one that says that the concept of the chosen people is one of superiority? I'd very much like to see it. You could be right! I just haven't run across it.


What nation, tribe or a man will tell things that would discredit them among world community? Of course they are not stupid to put themselves under fire. Do you know why we don't know much about life in Israel, about jewish way of life? Only hear about bombs going off but nothing about social life? because it isolated itself from the world and from world media, because showing social life would be disaster in regards to human rights, just single construction of wall is unlawful, even UN recognised it unlawfullness. However, go to unbiased org website: http://www.nkusa.org/

[Jennifer]

First fo all how can you prove it is a non-jewish source? How? Nohow!!!

It's the London "Times." Many Islamics are on the staff. Are you skeptical of everything that is not Islamic? With all due respect, I have a feeling that you view the world as either Islamic or against Islamic. It really isn't like that at all!

What nation, tribe or a man will tell things that would discredit them among world community? Of course they are not stupid to put themselves under fire. Do you know why we don't know much about life in Israel, about jewish way of life? Only hear about bombs going off but nothing about social life?

Quite frankly, the world news about many countries, including Uzbekistan, is the same way. I've also found that to be true in my travels. People only heard very negative things about the United States! I was surprised.

I think what is very important is for all of us to really look at life not from the point-of-view as only Uzbeks/Americans or Islamics/other religions, but as human beings. All of us really are Allah's children, don't you think?

If you are going to distrust any view that is not Islamic, other religions may do the same. Then, we're all losing out on reality, and in the end, no one wins.

However, if you do have some proof that the London "Times" newspaper is Jewish or anti-Islamic, please let me know. I'd never heard anything like that before.

Edit: PS -- if anything, the Times should be very anti-Jewish, because the establishment of Israel took away their country's state of Palestine.

[ДЖИГИТ]

It's the London "Times." Many Islamics are on the staff. Are you skeptical of everything that is not Islamic? With all due respect, I have a feeling that you view the world as either Islamic or against Islamic. It really isn't like that at all!



Quite frankly, the world news about many countries, including Uzbekistan, is the same way. I've also found that to be true in my travels. People only heard very negative things about the United States! I was surprised.

I think what is very important is for all of us to really look at life not from the point-of-view as only Uzbeks/Americans or Islamics/other religions, but as human beings. All of us really are Allah's children, don't you think?

If you are going to distrust any view that is not Islamic, other religions may do the same. Then, we're all losing out on reality, and in the end, no one wins.

However, if you do have some proof that the London "Times" newspaper is Jewish or anti-Islamic, please let me know. I'd never heard anything like that before.

Edit: PS -- if anything, the Times should be very anti-Jewish, because the establishment of Israel took away their country's state of Palestine.

Speaking of skepticism, I am sometimes the one about some islamic things, because there are many sects within Islam as well. I don't know about London Times, who works there or not, but it's not about who works there, it is all about info they present, even jewish people mostly give very accurate and trustfull info, even better than any other source, no wonder, there are many good and consciencious people among all nations.

Same thing with Uzbekistan. What's in Uzbekistan is politics, every nation has its good and bad stuff, nice and bad people.

Of course we are all humans, no matter how we call ourselves, blacks or whites, uzbeks, americans or chinese... As for children, we are defenitely not children of God, it is FACT, as I said previously, God is not a father of any human being at any time, but God is the Creator of all at all times! So we better not confuse ourselves with wrong words, but learn to call a spade a spade!!!

It's not about discrediting, it is about telling the truth, if everyone will be labelled as discreditor of other religions, then where your right for free and open speech gone, then how people will know the truth??? I'm not advocating on my own words, and I'm not intended to be a winner, but giving links and quotes from Bibles itself. Is quoting Bible and analising it - distrusting? We should learn discuss and debate things that we differ or we will not achieve peace on earth. Discussion and sharing views can bring to cooperation and mutual understanding.

[Jennifer]

It's not about discrediting, it is about telling the truth, if everyone will be labelled as discreditor of other religions, then where your right for free and open speech gone, then how people will know the truth???

Here is where I'm rather confused. Take, for instance, the "Protocols of Zion." The website you gave provided no proof whatsoever that Jews wrote it. Yet, you automatically believed it. Yet, when I gave credible sources (and please, I very much encourage you to pursue the research; the only ones who still circulate the rumor are very anti-Semitic and give no proof whatsoever that Jews wrote it), you immediately questioned them.

I'm very much trying to understand your way of thinking. I'm afraid I just don't understand how you can accept as fact very dangerous statements that give no sources at all and yet are non-believing of sources that give verifiable information. I'm not at all trying to attack you, please believe me. But, I am trying to understand how you process information.

Any person on earth who hated Islam could write something that says, "We, the Islamic people, plan to rule the earth and bring destruction upon all non-Muslims.." and make it sound very real. But, just finding a document like that does not mean that Muslims automatically wrote it. Please, please do your research and find not one, but hundreds of sources that discredit that very harmful piece of information.

I'll be the very first one to say that we absolutely must question sources! But, we must question ALL of them equally, not just the ones that we don't want to believe. And, I'll be the very first one to admit that it's hard to do sometimes.

We should learn discuss and debate things that we differ or we will not achieve peace on earth. Discussion and sharing views can bring to cooperation and mutual understanding.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'll be the very first to admit that there's a great deal of information that I do not understand about religions in general, and of other cultures. Personally, I feel that the people of the world have a lot more commonalities than differences.

[ДЖИГИТ]

Here is where I'm rather confused. Take, for instance, the "Protocols of Zion." The website you gave provided no proof whatsoever that Jews wrote it. Yet, you automatically believed it. Yet, when I gave credible sources (and please, I very much encourage you to pursue the research; the only ones who still circulate the rumor are very anti-Semitic and give no proof whatsoever that Jews wrote it), you immediately questioned them.

I'm very much trying to understand your way of thinking. I'm afraid I just don't understand how you can accept as fact very dangerous statements that give no sources at all and yet are non-believing of sources that give verifiable information. I'm not at all trying to attack you, please believe me. But, I am trying to understand how you process information.

Any person on earth who hated Islam could write something that says, "We, the Islamic people, plan to rule the earth and bring destruction upon all non-Muslims.." and make it sound very real. But, just finding a document like that does not mean that Muslims automatically wrote it. Please, please do your research and find not one, but hundreds of sources that discredit that very harmful piece of information.

I'll be the very first one to say that we absolutely must question sources! But, we must question ALL of them equally, not just the ones that we don't want to believe. And, I'll be the very first one to admit that it's hard to do sometimes.



I agree wholeheartedly. I'll be the very first to admit that there's a great deal of information that I do not understand about religions in general, and of other cultures. Personally, I feel that the people of the world have a lot more commonalities than differences.

As a matter of fact I did research on Protocols, but one can't make a research not studying jewry, since jews make zionists and not any other nation. I don't know if you speak and read russian, but here's a link for russian research articles about jewry. Of course the issue of the thread is not about jewry, but since you focused on Protocols, I decided to answer:
http://members.tripod.com/~merkulov/TEXTS/BS.HTM

[Shogird]

As a matter of fact I did research on Protocols, but one can't make a research not studying jewry, since jews make zionists and not any other nation. I don't know if you speak and read russian, but here's a link for russian research articles about jewry. Of course the issue of the thread is not about jewry, but since you focused on Protocols, I decided to answer:
http://members.tripod.com/~merkulov/TEXTS/BS.HTM

What kind of research link you gave us? It looks like information from lonely Russian Robinson Crusoe in a remote island.

Quote from your weblink:
Hi!
I am Yury K. Merkulov, coordinator of M-GROUP.
I was born in 27.12.52 in Jiguliovsk town, near Volga river.
It was nice place! Mountains and big river and forest.
Yes! It is very good place for travels.
But man want bigger always.
And I had graduate institute of the radiocommunication in 1977.
After graduated institute I worked on "Orbit-2".
"Orbit-2" is a land station of space communication.
I like "Orbit-2" antenna - "cup" - 12m diameter.
Weight of "cup" - more then 50 tons.
In the storm it is great show - tons of iron above the head.
I loved my job.
But man want bigger always.
Now I am chief of measuring check on Kurils islands.
At bigger part of time I live on Kunashir island.
I like Kunashir island bigger of all.
Kunashir island is really - world wonder!
Hot lakes, hot rivers, volcanos - and great ocean...
I think, you understand me.
At summer I live on Iturup island.
Iturup - biggest Kurils island.
Of course, I work on Shikotan island also.
I think, I am OM islander.
I live on Kurils island more then 20 years.
It was nice years!
Well, my best wishes to you!
Good travels!

[referee]

It's my understanding that the idea of a "chosen" people has nothing to do with favortism at all. At the time of Abraham, the world was very polytheistic -- people were worshipping various gods and had statues and who-knows-what that they worshipped. What I've always heard is that God chose Abraham simply to spread the word of monotheism, and that was it. So, the word chosen meant nothing more than being appointed messenger to tell the world that Creator of the world is One.


Without going into the context of this seemingly unproductive argument, which resembles many other similarly unproductive "tennis-ball" discussions, I wanted to make a small note on the Jewish concept of the chosen people. According to Muslims, Jewish people's identity does not date back to Abraham himself (as Jews believe) but dates to the period of the collapse of the judae kingdom, if i'm not mistaken. So "jewish" people before they obtained jewish identity were called Bani Israil, children of Israel.

And the problem of the chosen people concept is that Judaism claims that God will forgive them their sins because they are chosen people, whereas Islam teaches that Jewish people were misled by their rabbis who complicated their religious rites and corrupted the Torah (Prophet Jesus's mission was to remind Jews of the original revelation from Allah), and secondly, in Islam all peoples are equal before Allah and have one origin dating back to Adam and Eve.

[referee]

As a matter of fact I did research on Protocols, but one can't make a research not studying jewry, since jews make zionists and not any other nation. I don't know if you speak and read russian, but here's a link for russian research articles about jewry. Of course the issue of the thread is not about jewry, but since you focused on Protocols, I decided to answer:
http://members.tripod.com/~merkulov/TEXTS/BS.HTM (http://members.tripod.com/%7Emerkulov/TEXTS/BS.HTM)

Brother Djigit,

I think a Muslim need to distinguish between a Jew and a Zionist Jew (or zionist Christian). The issue with the former is purely of a religious character, when Islam teaches us to inform the Jewish people of their mistakes and try to bring them back to their original faith but also to respect them as in the Noble Quran it's mentioned that the name of Allah is mentioned in the synagogues.

The issue with the latter is purely political and has roots in the ideology of colonialism/imperialism which is only salad-dressed as religious/Judaic. You'd know that the first most active zionists were socialist colonizers from Eastern Europe who later picked up on the religious theme of the Jewish homeland. In fact, the worst enemy for Jews and Judaism today is the ideology and practice of zionism, which has further corrupted the message of the Moses (Torah) to promote the wordly gains of power and land of some zionist Jews and their supporters zionist Christians.

Zionists and their supporters are doing what the rabbis were doing, corrupting Allah's revelations to pursue their inhumane political goals in Palestine. Prophet Jesus warned them before, I guess this time around it's up to the Jewish nation to wake up and realise that zionism is harming their nation and it will drive them to hellfire. Many Jews are not in the denial about zionism and reject it and fight it, but there are some who are lured by it. So we need not make general claims, but make case-by-case judgements according to their words and deeds.

The above is my view, but it's Allah who knows best people's intentions and actions...

[Jennifer]

As a matter of fact I did research on Protocols, but one can't make a research not studying jewry, since jews make zionists and not any other nation. I don't know if you speak and read russian, but here's a link for russian research articles about jewry. Of course the issue of the thread is not about jewry, but since you focused on Protocols, I decided to answer:
http://members.tripod.com/~merkulov/TEXTS/BS.HTM

I do know a very few words in Russian, but for all practical purposes, I do not read it; I'm sorry.

However, is there any actual proof that "Protocols" was written by Jews?

We have to be very careful, because anyone can write anything and say it was written by someone else -- and the writing can be very convincing!

However, many scholars have looked into the issue, and again, except for anti-Semites, no one with a well-respected reputation can provide evidence.

If you look at the history of Jews, there have been many false lies and accusations. It's also true of Islamics, as well. Thus, we have to be able to discern between facts and opinions.

[Jennifer]

According to Muslims, Jewish people's identity does not date back to Abraham himself (as Jews believe) but dates to the period of the collapse of the judae kingdom, if i'm not mistaken.

Interesting. So, in the same vein, is it all right for Christians, Jews, and others to decide when Islam began? I'm curious to know what one group is more authorative on the origins of a specific group than the group itself.

And the problem of the chosen people concept is that Judaism claims that God will forgive them their sins because they are chosen people,

Are you sure about that?

in Islam all peoples are equal before Allah and have one origin dating back to Adam and Eve.

One thing I do know that is a difference between Christianity (at least some branches) and Judaism. In Judaism, it doesn't matter what you believe or what or whom you worship. What determines whether or not you'll have a close relationship with Allah in the afterlife is how you choose to live live on earth. Thus, atheists who live upstanding lives have a better shot with Allah than allegedly devoutly religious people who bring a lot of pain and destruction to other people and the earth. To me, that is a very just God.

[Pinkie]

One thing I do know that is a difference between Christianity (at least some branches) and Judaism. In Judaism, it doesn't matter what you believe or what or whom you worship. What determines whether or not you'll have a close relationship with Allah in the afterlife is how you choose to live live on earth. Thus, atheists who live upstanding lives have a better shot with Allah than allegedly devoutly religious people who bring a lot of pain and destruction to other people and the earth. To me, that is a very just God.

In Islam, how you live your life in this world will determine (of course God is the one to decide) if you go to Paradise or to Hellfire. As Muslims, we submit ourselves to Allah completely but I think what we tend to forget is that the intentions someone has in their heart is also very important. It's one thing to do this and that but with no feeling in the inner core of your heart, that's a different story. And yes, God is just-he takes into account all that one has done and will judge them most justly. If you asked your mother to judge you according to the actions that you have done, she might say "It's ok honey, don't worry about it" and then it's not fair because you got away with a lot of things, yes? :D

My knowledge about Judaism is not great although I live near by Ultra- Orthodox Jews. Most people criticize them for enclosing themselves inside their own bubble from the outside world (they have their own stores, Yeshivas, and even their own police!). I don't really agree with them isolating their own community but at the same time, I give them credit for trying to live their lives their own way.

[Jennifer]

I think what we tend to forget is that the intentions someone has in their heart is also very important. It's one thing to do this and that but with no feeling in the inner core of your heart, that's a different story.

That's a very important point. If one is "helping" someone only because of what he'll get out of it, then that help is very self-serving.


And yes, God is just-he takes into account all that one has done and will judge them most justly.

Here's what I don't understand. A lot of terrorists (of various religions) will commit heinous acts or murders with the intent that it will earn them a better place in the next world. In other words, even though these people cause immense pain and suffering among human beings on earth, they think that God will smile favorably on the act. I personally cannot buy into that philosophy at all.

[referee]

Interesting. So, in the same vein, is it all right for Christians, Jews, and others to decide when Islam began? I'm curious to know what one group is more authorative on the origins of a specific group than the group itself.


Some things are factual: it's a fact when the Prophet received his revelations, it's a fact when Roman empire adopted Christianity as a state religion, etc. But some other things are open to debate, such as was Abraham Jewish (Yahudi) by identity, or was Prophet Jesus a Jewish traitor, son of God, or indeed a Prophet of God sent to the Jewish people. In the end of the day, each side presents his case and you, following your heart and reason, judge for yourself which one holds water...

[referee]

Are you sure about that?

here are some excerps from the Jewish virtual library (quick search, sorry didn't have time for extensive one):

"After all, how did the notion of one God become known to the world? Through the Jews. And according to Jewish sources, that is the meaning of chosenness: to make God known to the world. As Rabbi Louis Jacobs has written: "The world owes to Israel the idea of the one God of righteousness and holiness. This is how God became known to mankind."


"Why were the Jews chosen? Because they are descendants of Abraham (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/abraham.html). And why were Abraham and his descendants given the task of making God known to the world? The Torah (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Written_Law.html) never tells us."

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/chosen_people.html

There is also a notion that Jews have a special covenant with God, but Muslims believe there was a covenant that Jewish people broke. Anyways, it's a matter of a religious/conceptual debate...

[referee]

One thing I do know that is a difference between Christianity (at least some branches) and Judaism. In Judaism, it doesn't matter what you believe or what or whom you worship. What determines whether or not you'll have a close relationship with Allah in the afterlife is how you choose to live live on earth. Thus, atheists who live upstanding lives have a better shot with Allah than allegedly devoutly religious people who bring a lot of pain and destruction to other people and the earth. To me, that is a very just God.

In Islam, the same principle applies: if a person is doing his best to follow divine rules (be Jewish or Christian) he may be granted a place in paradise, however, there's one proviso - that is if he's had no chance of exposure to the true message of Islam. Islam is no different, as the just God you are talking about is the same God.

On atheists, I disagree. How can an atheist follow divinely-inspired life if he's inspired by secular dogmas? Unless, it's an atheist who's in fact a religious person but behaves hypocritically when he calls himself an atheist/agnostic, and that's another matter altogether...

[Abu Hurayra]

video
http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/stoning-t1.rm


link: http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html

Dear Miss/Mr

As I see you pretend to be Christian,But you do not know the Ruling of Stoning in Christianity.
In religions(all religions were the same-submission to God-which means in arabic Islam,But Nations of Mouses and Jesus hide the thrue rulings made altarations for their cheap benefits) nations of prophet Mouses,prophet Jesus and prophet Muhammad saw There existed ruling of Stoning.
As we see nowadays as a result of not following those rulings Humanity is facing with many Illnesses,Social Moral Problems,Demographic problems and etc.

Stoning In BIble:

Deuteronomy 22:13-29 "If any man takes a wife, and goes in to her, and then spurns her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings an evil name upon her, saying, `I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her the tokens of virginity,' then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the tokens of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate; and the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, `I gave my daughter to this man to wife, and he spurns her; and lo, he has made shameful charges against her, saying, "I did not find in your daughter the tokens of virginity." And yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. Then the elders of that city shall take the man and whip him; and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver, and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought an evil name upon a virgin of Israel; and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days. But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has wrought folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you. "If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; so you shall purge the evil from Israel. "If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you. "But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But to the young woman you shall do nothing; in the young woman there is no offense punishable by death, for this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor; because he came upon her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her. "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.
John 8: 1-11 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning he came again to the temple; all the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such. What do you say about her?" This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go, and do not sin again.”

source:Bible/ Deuteronomy 22:13-29; John 8: 1-11

[Abu Hurayra]

About Equality in general in Islam:

Доктор Тарик Аль Суаидан обнаружил некоторые стихи в Святом Коране, которые упоминают, что одна вещь равна другой, то есть мужчины равны женщинам. Хотя это имеет грамматический смысл, удивительный факт в том, что слово «мужчина» упоминается в Коране - 24 и слово «женщина» упоминается - также 24 раза. Поэтому не только эта фраза, правильна в грамматическом смысле, но также истинна математически, то есть 24 = 24. После дальнейшего анализа различных стихов, он обнаружил, что эта последовательность соблюдается повсюду в Коране, где говорится, что одна вещь подобно другой. См. ниже удивительный результат – слова, упомянутые одинаковое количество раз на Арабском языке в Коране:
Dunia (одно название жизни) 115. Aakhirat (одно название жизни после этого мира) 115
Malaika (Ангелы) 88. Shayteen (Сатана) 88
Жизнь 145. Смерть 145
Выгода 50. Испорченный (развращать) 50
Люди 50. Messengers 50
Eblees (король дьяволов) 11. Ищите убежище от Eblees 11
Museebah (бедствие) 75. Благодарность 75
Расход (Sadaqah) 73. Удовлетворение 73
Люди, кто - вводят в заблуждение 17. Мертвые люди 17
Muslimeen 41. Jihad 41
Золото 8. Легкая жизнь 8
Волшебный 60. Fitnah (dissuasion, вводя в заблуждение) 60
Zakat (Мусульман. Налог - оплачивают бедным) 32. Barakah (Увеличение или Благословение богатства) 32
Мнение 49. Noor 49
Язык 25. Проповедь 25
Desite 8. Опасение 8
Разговор публично 18. Предающий гласности (разглашение) 18
Затруднение 114. Терпение 114
Muhammed 4. Sharee'ah (обучение Muhammed's) 4
Человек 24. Женщина 24
И поразительно то, сколько раз появляются следующие слова:
Salah 5, Месяц 12, День 365,
Море 32, Земля 13
Море + Земля = 32 + 13= 45
Море = 32/45 * % 100=71.11111111
Земля = 13/45 * 100 = 28.88888889 %
Море + Земля =100.00 %
Современная наука только недавно доказала это, вода закрывает (охватывает) 71.111 % земли, в то время как земля охватывает 28.889 %.
Является ли это совпадением? Вопрос - кто преподавал Пророку Muhammed (PBUH) все это?
Ответ автоматический: ВСЕМОГУЩИЙ АЛЛАХ преподавал ему это. Поскольку КОРАН также сообщает нам ЭТО. Пожалуйста, передайте это всем вашим друзьям и Мусульманам, которых Вы знаете.

[Jennifer]

Some things are factual: it's a fact when the Prophet received his revelations, it's a fact when Roman empire adopted Christianity as a state religion, etc. But some other things are open to debate, such as was Abraham Jewish (Yahudi) by identity, or was Prophet Jesus a Jewish traitor, son of God, or indeed a Prophet of God sent to the Jewish people. In the end of the day, each side presents his case and you, following your heart and reason, judge for yourself which one holds water...

Exactly. That's why each religion has different "facts!" So, it's more accurate to say "Islamics believe.."

Until everyone agrees on the facts that can be proven, they're really only theories of the specific religion.

[Jennifer]

On atheists, I disagree. How can an atheist follow divinely-inspired life if he's inspired by secular dogmas?

I didn't say lead a divinely-inspired life. What I mean is to live a life that is honest and a life that is helpful to other people. I actually know many atheists (I am not one, but for some reason, I just happen to know several). They do a lot of volunteer work and are truly very good human beings -- kind and helpful to others. They are kind to the planet (try to do all they can to use products that won't harm the earth and such), and they make the lives of other human beings easier. This is the kind of life that to which I am referring.

[Jennifer]

here are some excerps from the Jewish virtual library (quick search, sorry didn't have time for extensive one):

"After all, how did the notion of one God become known to the world? Through the Jews. And according to Jewish sources, that is the meaning of chosenness: to make God known to the world.

Exactly. That's all that "chosen" means. However, it doesn't mean at all that Jews can commit crimes and get away with them any more than anyone else can. And that's what a lot of people don't seem to understand.

[Jennifer]

Jennifer you'll need to ask admin about those links.

I'm afraid you misunderstand. It wasn't about both links, just the second one. Even if typed in, the link leads to nowhere. Have you tried typing in the link about which I speak? A dead link should have nothing to do with the admin of this site.

[Shogird]

Human equality in Christianity?




My Challenge: I invite any Jew or Christian to bring me one Bible verse that orders its followers to free slaves!




Before you release the slaves than I will bring those verses.

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/db2/images/435-20040330173315.jpg
From Freedom Now World News


Widespread Gang-Rape of Boy Slaves

By Maria Sliwa

Sudan, July 15, 2002: During a recent fact finding trip to Southern Sudan, Freedom Now World News discovered overwhelming evidence that young black, boy slaves are repeatedly gang-raped by their Arab masters. While previous reports on slavery have focused mainly on the gang-rape of female slaves, sociologist and investigative reporter, Maria Sliwa received testimony from numerous boy victims of rape.

"This type of sex is very strange to us," said recently redeemed slave Deng Deng. "Many times during rape boys would cry so loudly that the Arabs would stuff rags in their mouths so they could not be heard. I witnessed this often. If you refuse [sex], sometimes they would shoot you." Deng Deng is a Christian who said that as a slave he was often beaten because he would not convert to Islam.

Another recently freed boy slave, Deng Ayuel testified: "I watched the Arabs rape my two sisters and I watched many slave boys being raped as well. They would often take a girl or boy and do whatever they wanted with them sexually. I too was raped many times by my master and his Arab friends."

Perhaps the most graphic account of male rape was given by the freed slave Aleek Mach Deng: "I watched my master Mohammed and four Murahaleen Arabs violently gang-rape a young Dinka slave boy. The boy was screaming and crying a lot. He was bleeding heavily, as he was raped repeatedly. I watched his stomach expand with air with each violent penetration. The boy kept screaming. I was very frightened, and knew I was likely next. Suddenly the boy's screams stopped as he went completely unconscious. My master took him to the hospital. I never saw him again."

Many of the redeemed slaves told Sliwa that in order to avoid rape, male slaves would try to escape but were hunted down like animals by their masters. The punishment for resisting rape is often severe beatings, death or limb amputation.

Sliwa noted that the knowledge of male slave rape is widespread and has come to the attention of community leaders in Southern Sudan. "Many of the freed male slaves come to the chiefs and tell us they were repeatedly raped by their Arab captors," said Nhial Chan Nhial, Paramount Chief of Akon. "This affects their minds badly. They are subject to fits of crying, mental problems and are often unable to marry later on in life." Yet, in the ongoing genocidal Sudanese civil war, most are helpless to do anything.

International law recognizes both slavery and rape in the context of armed conflict as crimes against humanity. The International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia has recently convicted Serbian soldiers for committing these offenses. Freedom Now World News is calling on the U.S. Government to investigate this aspect of the Government of Sudan's declared jihad against the Black Africans of Southern Sudan and press for the establishment of an International Criminal Tribunal for Sudan.

* Translations reviewed by Francis Bok for accuracy.
http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=167

[Shogird]

Middle East & Africa

Sudan Cries Rape
Ex-Captives Recount Boy Rape in Sudan

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=435

[Shogird]

Sudan

Darfur: Rape as a weapon of war: sexual violence and its consequences




"I was sleeping when the attack on Disa started. I was taken away by the attackers, they were all in uniforms. They took dozens of other girls and made us walk for three hours. During the day we were beaten and they were telling us: "You, the black women, we will exterminate you, you have no god." At night we were raped several times. The Arabs(1) guarded us with arms and we were not given food for three days." A female refugee from Disa [Masalit village, West Darfur], interviewed by Amnesty International delegates in Goz Amer camp for Sudanese refugees in Chad, May 2004

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engafr540762004

[Shogird]

In spite of threats, legal case continues against Pakistani rapists
October 13, 2000

On May 6, VOM was shocked to learn of the gang rape of eight Christian women near Lahore, in an act of religiously motivated violence. The women, ranging in age from 16 to 35, worked in Lavaira Stitching Factory, and were returning home at 11:30 PM in the factory van along with several of their Muslim female colleagues. The van carrying the girls was chased by a Toyota Hiace from which men with fire arms emerged and stopped the vehicle of the girls and forcibly took it to the nearby fields.
The masked men of the gang ordered the driver and his helper not to move. They took Shahid Masih (Christian), another factory worker, and tied him to a nearby tree. Then they separated the Christian girls from the Muslim ones and taking them one by one to the fields, raped them at gunpoint. This satanic act went on for four hours. The Muslims girls were all spared.
At present, legal proceedings are going ahead against the arrested culprits, who are members of an Islamic extremist organization called Lakshary Taiba, which is well known for its militant struggle (jihad) against non-Muslims. The women and their families have repeatedly been the objects of death threats since the attack. Most recently, Ashiq Masih, an uncle of one of the women, was stopped by the side of the road by four masked men on October 9. He was taken from his car and brutally beaten with the warning that if he did not stop pursuing the legal case against the rapists, he would be killed.
Those assisting the family with their legal action are also in danger, and so we urge Christians from around the world to pray for these women, their families, and their lawyers during this dangerous time. The Voice of the Martyrs has been involved in assisting these families. Pray, too, that justice would prevail and that God would provide the healing that these women desperately need in their lives

http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=81

[Shogird]

EGYPTIAN SECURITY POLICE ARREST, HARASS LOCAL CHRISTIANS

Former Muslims are jailed

Young girl is kidnapped

http://www.persecution.com/news/index.cfm?action=fullstory&newsid=201

[Shogird]

Pakistan rape victim speaks in US

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40945000/jpg/_40945296_pakrape.jpg

Pakistan gang rape victim Mukhtar Mai has told rights activists in the US of her battle against "feudal lords" oppressing women in her homeland......

More here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4395728.stm

[Shogird]

http://www.rferl.org/images/photo/pak-rapetrial260605.jpg

Pakistan: Rape Case Spotlights Women's Rights

Three years ago, she was gang-raped in her Pakistani village, allegedly on the orders of a tribal gathering. Since then, Mukhtar Mai has sought justice for her attack, and in the process has drawn international attention to the plight of many women in rural Pakistan. On Monday, it's the turn of the Supreme Court to hear a case that has also caused some embarrassment to Pakistan's authorities.....

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/06/dd6e2b0d-c9b6-4312-85c8-d9899300a595.html
....

[Shogird]

The World Must Know About This
Special Report

Many of Saudi Arabia's 6-million foreign workers labor under conditions that are sometimes compared to "modern-day slavery.''

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/webspecials02/saudiarabia/day3/story1.shtml

[Shogird]

Saudi Religious Leader Calls for Slavery's Legalization

We learn today from the dissident Saudi Information Agency that a prominent Saudi religious authority recently called for slavery to be re-legalized in the kingdom. Ali Al-Ahmed reports (http://www.saudiinstitute.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=138&Itemid=28) on the views of Sheikh Saleh Al-Fawzan, the author of a religious textbook (At-Tawhid, "Monotheism") widely used to teach Saudi high school students as well as their counterparts abroad studying in Saudi schools (including those in the West).
"Slavery is a part of Islam," he announced in a recent lecture. "Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam." He argued against the idea that slavery had ever been abolished, insulting those who espouse this view as "ignorant, not scholars. They are merely writers. Whoever says such things is an infidel."
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/123

[Shogird]

U.S. raps Saudi Arabia, 3 Arab allies for 'slavery'

The United States criticized Saudi Arabia and three other Gulf Arab allies yesterday for allowing modern-day "slavery" to continue, a move the Bush administration hopes will prompt human rights reform in the Middle East.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20050604-120011-6570r.htm

[Shogird]

Saudia Arabia is Cradle of Islam!?



Slavery

Saudi Arabia was among the last nations to end the practice of slavery (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Slavery&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a); the practice was ended by neighboring Qatar (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Qatar&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a) in 1952 (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=1952&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a), the Yemen Arab Republic (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Yemen+Arab+Republic&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a) in 1962 (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=1962&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a), the UAE (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=United+Arab+Emirates&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a) in 1963 (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=1963&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a), South Yemen (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=People%27s+Democratic+Republic+of+Yemen&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a) in 1967 (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=1967&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a), and Oman (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Oman&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a) in 1970 (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=1970&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a). Some of these states, such as Yemen, were British (http://www.forum.uz/main/ntquery;jsessionid=tlybxgjc8plx?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Britain&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc01a) protectorates. The British left South Yemen without forcing it to give up slavery, but did pressure the UAE into giving it up. Saudi Arabia officially outlawed slavery in 1962, freeing that year 10,000 slaves out of an estimated 15,000-30,000.[1] (http://www.yale.edu/glc/events/cbss/Miers.pdf) (http://www.yale.edu/glc/events/cbss/Miers.pdf)

http://www.answers.com/topic/human-rights-in-saudi-arabia

[ДЖИГИТ]

Shogird, slavery probem exists not only in arab countries, but US as well:shock: , the thread opened "human equality, is about theological retrospective, or theological attitude of holy scriptures, not the acts of certain people! Yet these certain people inspite of their location, Middle East or West and Europe may not represent Islam or Christianity, since we know, not all population confesses Islam in the Middle East or not all population confesses Christianity in the West and Europe. We are talking about teachings of holy scriptures!!!

Modern slavery thriving in the U.S.
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/23_16691.shtml

By Janet Gilmore, Media Relations | 23 September 2004


BERKELEY – Washington, D.C. - A new report on forced labor in the United States reveals in disturbing detail how individuals in communities across the country are forced through threats or violence to work in deplorable conditions for little or no pay.
The report, "Hidden Slaves: Forced Labor in the United States," describes for the first time the nature and scope of modern-day slavery in America. Released during a news conference in Washington, D.C., today (Thursday, Sept. 23), the report was conducted by researchers from the University of California, Berkeley's Human Rights Center and the Washington

Also I think everybody heard about sex slavery (pedophile) exercised by Christian priests!!!

[Shogird]

Also I think everybody heard about sex slavery (pedophile) exercised by Christian priests!!!
Yes I heard about the abuses in Catholic Church and child molestation by priests. These people do not have any faith and they are volwes in sheep skin. Hell is prepared for them.

[Pinkie]

Asalamu Alaikum to everyone...

I agree 100% that Islam is about equality and tolerance although I know others don't agree. All I have to say is this: it's not the religion (this could be any religion) to blame, it's the corruption of man and cultural ideology. Take honor killings for example, it pre-dates Judaism and it happens all around the world.

[Jennifer]

I agree 100% that Islam is about equality and tolerance although I know others don't agree.

Hi Pinkie, there is one thing I just don't understand. In Africa, a woman had pre-marital sex and was sentenced to be stoned to death by an Islamic court. I'm afraid that sounds very Draconian and excessive and unusual punishment. Further, the father of the unmarried woman's baby was simply asked if he were the father, and when he said no, he was completely freed. Why was the court extremely lenient on him and so extraordinarily cruel to the woman?

Out of curiosity, if a non-Muslim did the same thing (pre-marital sex), would the punishment be any different?

[Amiri Turkiston]

Hi Pinkie, there is one thing I just don't understand. In Africa, a woman had pre-marital sex and was sentenced to be stoned to death by an Islamic court. I'm afraid that sounds very Draconian and excessive and unusual punishment. Further, the father of the unmarried woman's baby was simply asked if he were the father, and when he said no, he was completely freed. Why was the court extremely lenient on him and so extraordinarily cruel to the woman?

Out of curiosity, if a non-Muslim did the same thing (pre-marital sex), would the punishment be any different?

actually both of them should be killed
of course after in deeps investigation and provement of the sex between them
not only woman

[Jennifer]

actually both of them should be killed
of course after in deeps investigation and provement of the sex between them
not only woman

DEATH for having premarital sex? Personally, I think Allah is the only one to judge us. We have no right to steal someone's life, especially for having premarital sex. To me, this is completely barbaric. The people weren't even stealing, let along murdering. They were having sex outside of marriage. Do you honestly believe that should be punishable by something so permanent and drastifc as death?

Again, how would sentencing be different (or would it be?) for a non-Muslim?

Really, God is the only one to judge us. For us to do so is simply playing God. None of us is God. To impose death is a horribly violent judgment and action that you're suggesting.

Quite frankly, I think that is what scares a lot of people about Islam: the philosophy of "follow our rules" or you'll be killed.

[Pinkie]

Hi Pinkie, there is one thing I just don't understand. In Africa, a woman had pre-marital sex and was sentenced to be stoned to death by an Islamic court. I'm afraid that sounds very Draconian and excessive and unusual punishment. Further, the father of the unmarried woman's baby was simply asked if he were the father, and when he said no, he was completely freed. Why was the court extremely lenient on him and so extraordinarily cruel to the woman?

Out of curiosity, if a non-Muslim did the same thing (pre-marital sex), would the punishment be any different?

As for what happened to that woman in Africa, and to other women who are stoned to death for having pre-marital sex: most of them come from very patriarchal societies (and this particular African country, it's safe to say they are lacking in the paternity test department). Virginity is a very important factor in some cultures and it's taboo to have pre-marital sex. Even after Islam came to them, they treated their women the same way as they did before. It's not based on religion, I think we should consider how boys are raised within their own homes, are they treated to put women on a lower platform? It just so happens that religion and culture come in a box and there are people who can't separate the two:rolleyes:.

"Quite frankly, I think that is what scares a lot of people about Islam: the philosophy of "follow our rules" or you'll be killed."

Not for nothing but then how come it's the fastest growing religion in the world?

[Alouddin]

DEATH for having premarital sex? Personally, I think Allah is the only one to judge us. We have no right to steal someone's life, especially for having premarital sex. To me, this is completely barbaric. The people weren't even stealing, let along murdering. They were having sex outside of marriage. Do you honestly believe that should be punishable by something so permanent and drastifc as death? in no way intending to scare you, Jennifer, but this IS indeed a command from Allah (swt)

Quite frankly, I think that is what scares a lot of people about Islam: the philosophy of "follow our rules" or you'll be killed. 1) this is in no way a philosophy of/in/about Islam. See verse 256 in chapter 2: God says 'no compulsion in religion'. I.e. no-one is pushed to accepts or leave Islam. Don't like (read "understand and fully comprehend") the rules - fine, we CANNOT push you to stay (except for dawah - we can call you, but not force you to stay). And before reverting to Islam, one studies the matter, right? Learns the rights and the lefts in it. Then, understanding the whole thing as far as his/her intellect admits, reverts to Islam. That is, one knows what will the follow-up action will be in such-and-such cases. Now, if one knows that Allah [swt] bars His human creations from pre-marital sex, then why on earth would s/he do that?...

There is also a thin line that should always be kept in mind, Jennifer: if that woman is UNMARRIED - then she is lashed, whereas IF SHE"S MARRIED - then only she's confined to death. And guess what, there has to be 4 witnesses that should testify the illegal sexual intercourse... It's not about just getting a woman and hitting her with a stone...

Hmm... how about "follow the rules of Allah [swt] or burn you'll be thrown into the Hellfire..."

Everything said correctly is from Allah [swt], and if there is anything wrong that is out of my ignorance. If anything wrong plz correct me sm1.

Jennifer: check out the surah An-Nisa's verse 16 "And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. And if they repent (promise Allah that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful." Allah swt is Ever-Merciful, and says leave then alone if they repent about this act. Well, you can argue that what if one does that all the time and says he repents?.. then ibid verses 17 and 18: "Allah accepts only the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and foolishness and repent soon afterwards; it is they whom Allah will forgive and Allah is Ever All*Knower, All*Wise.
18 And of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil deeds until death faces one of them and he says: "Now I repent;" nor of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful torment."

Come to Islam, come to salvation :king:

[Jennifer]

Salam Pinkie

Not for nothing but then how come it's the fastest growing religion in the world?

That is a very interesting question. Several centuries ago, Christianity was the fastest growing religion. Unfortunately, it was due to forced conversions, and not because people were sincerely converting to accepting jesus as a God. I'm not suggesting that it's happening with Islam, as well, however!

But does anyone know the reason? Is it that Islamic people are having more children and thus the number is growing? Or, more people are becoming Muslim (I'm not sure what word to use, since someone said that "convert" is an insult)?

[tarafdor]

DEATH for having premarital sex? Personally, I think Allah is the only one to judge us. We have no right to steal someone's life, especially for having premarital sex. To me, this is completely barbaric. The people weren't even stealing, let along murdering. They were having sex outside of marriage. Do you honestly believe that should be punishable by something so permanent and drastifc as death?

Again, how would sentencing be different (or would it be?) for a non-Muslim?

Really, God is the only one to judge us. For us to do so is simply playing God. None of us is God. To impose death is a horribly violent judgment and action that you're suggesting.

Quite frankly, I think that is what scares a lot of people about Islam: the philosophy of "follow our rules" or you'll be killed.

Aren't you afraid of modern days butcher Bush - 'you are with us or against us".

[Pinkie]

Salam Pinkie



That is a very interesting question. Several centuries ago, Christianity was the fastest growing religion. Unfortunately, it was due to forced conversions, and not because people were sincerely converting to accepting jesus as a God. I'm not suggesting that it's happening with Islam, as well, however!

But does anyone know the reason? Is it that Islamic people are having more children and thus the number is growing? Or, more people are becoming Muslim (I'm not sure what word to use, since someone said that "convert" is an insult)?

Instead of using convert, the word revert is more suitable. Muslims believe everyone on this earth is born as a Muslim. Of course when a baby grows up they start getting influenced by their parents beliefs and life style. So, when someone reverts, they are returning to the original state of Islam.....and yes this means when they take the testament of faith (Shahadah), all of their past sins are washed away completely-and they become sinless like a baby.

The interesting part is that after September 11th, more people started to embrace Islam. This triggered more people out there to actually learn more about Islam instead of relying on what they read in the newspapers or hear from the news. I think what is drawing people to Islam is the pure monotheism aspect of it but if you look up articles written by people who have reverted to Islam, I believe you will find a wide variety of explanations.

And yes, Muslims are encouraged to have many children:).

[Jennifer]

Aren't you afraid of modern days butcher Bush - 'you are with us or against us".

You need to open your eyes to the real dictatorships in the world if you're seriously worried about Bush. I'll be one of the first to make fun of him, but he doesn't come close to what the real dictators have done and are doing.

If you think it's all right to stone to death a divorced woman who had sex with another man (after her divorce, so it wasn't adultery), then your priorities and morals in life are different from most people I knnow.

[Jennifer]

Dear Pinkie,

Thank you very much for your reply. Also, thank you for your maturity, reasoning, and patience They speak well of you.

[Aziz]

The World Must Know About This
Special Report

Many of Saudi Arabia's 6-million foreign workers labor under conditions that are sometimes compared to "modern-day slavery.''

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/webspecials02/saudiarabia/day3/story1.shtml



well...as a Saudi I can say that some of what is mensioned in the link unfortunatly true.
the problem is very complicated....there are some companies that bring labors from very poor countries with contract of 100$ a month which is a very good deal for that poor guy (in his country), but when he comes to Saudi he discovers that 100$ is not even enough for minimum standards of living here.
there is no such a law that protects labors but if one of them was assaulted he can go to the police and he will get his right back. But many of them don't know their rights.


again...its not (many) as described earlier

[Aziz]

Hi Pinkie, there is one thing I just don't understand. In Africa, a woman had pre-marital sex and was sentenced to be stoned to death by an Islamic court. I'm afraid that sounds very Draconian and excessive and unusual punishment. Further, the father of the unmarried woman's baby was simply asked if he were the father, and when he said no, he was completely freed. Why was the court extremely lenient on him and so extraordinarily cruel to the woman?

Out of curiosity, if a non-Muslim did the same thing (pre-marital sex), would the punishment be any different?


I hope you don't mind if I interrupted the conversation between you & Pinkie
But when pre-marital sex is commited by a Muslim it is impossible to be sentenced to death.
But when a person commits sex after marriage he will be sentenced to death only in two cases:
1- If there were 4 men who saw the sex happening between the two.(which is nearly impossible)
2- Confissing. and the killing is not going to happen immediatly.
one of the copanions of the prophet(pbuh) came to him and confissed that he commited sex and asked the prophet to purify him by killing him. The prophet ignored him for 3 times and the last time the prophet (pbuh) asked the people:is he crazy???
they answered no.
then he had nothing to do but killing him.

so killing a person in Islam is not an easy thing. as long as nobody know about what you did and you regret what you did honestly your sin will be forgiven.

[Amplifier]

I'm a Christian
Hit me with your best shot thats all i can say.
Also this may seem harsh but what u posted is very misleading!
I have looked at the attack that you have posted against Christianity, In all my years of arguments I have never seen someone so confidently backing there ponit of view more that you sir. I cannot believe that you can make you argument out of sand. Have you ever made a sand castle? You should know that it never stands forever and if the designer makes one mistake the whole structure comes falling down. But the person making the sand castle knows this and tries not to make a mistake. I applaud you that you have actually read the bible, but did you happen to forget or skip what the bible said about slavery? Or where you just hoping that a Christian would not read this scripture that says in



1 Corinthians 7:21
21Were you a slave when you were called? That shouldn’t bother you. However, if you have a chance to become free, take it.


How can you so confidently affirm and promote this topic yet you have no idea whatsoever about it!
Yes you have managed to find scriptures that on the surface look appealing to your point. But let me ask you this question what would you rather Paul to say? "Slave disobey your master, don’t listen to the, seek there blood at all times so you can be free, harass the rulers and governments and force them to set you free. Rebel against them all the time, this is what god wonts?" Would you prefer that???
You have no bases for your argument! A sandy tower that is all. You have already man the mistake of not reading the other scriptures well enough, and you write on opinion, fiction, NO FACTS IN IT! And then you push you point forward like a blind bull hoping to hit something. I my years this rate 1/10 for a argument, I have more trouble teaching a 5 year old. Don’t make this mistake again please. I will not always be here to write back to you.
That the Koran says to speak on truth/facts? Yes? If you interpret it differently then does that mean you can lie at will and cause chaos and confusion for readers?
You reap what you sow. Sow facts and you will get a better reply and speak only on facts! facts! facts! facts! facts! facts! facts! facts!
I do not wish to cause offence to you in the way that I am writing, but I see chaos and confusion for anyone reading this and taking it for the truth!
Now I have a question for you, an Islamic man told me once,

"In contrast to the Christian teaching that human nature is basically evil [owing to the Original Sin], Islam teaches that it is essentially good. The thing you should remember that if you repent and follow it up with positive action, then you have made a difference Masha'Allah."
Also:
"The meaning of life is not love. It is part of life."
Wat about comunisim, in theroy it is perfect way to run a country but in reality, results show it is modern day Slavery, am i wrong? What about China, North Korea, Mother Russia and many more... why did it fail?Sadam is a good piture of human nature.
I see human nature in my, peers and in history. I find it greedy, power hungry, ugly, and having a killer edge to it. I know a killer he said "there was something in me to kill" now what was this in him to kill. Was it his rebelous side telling him to rebel? Where is the silver lining?
but then if love is only part (like a peace of a pie) then what is the rest? ( bad pie?) How can u discern if a part of you is rebeling or if its just the human nature that is good; how do u discern them.
example: If you get an idea to do somthing that is not out of love because he said its not the meaning of life, then you have good reason to do this thing that is not from love, how can u discern if its one or the other?
Also:
I have a riddle for you.

Monkey see monkey do,
Muhummand kill so why cant you?

Isnt he you example on how to live? I "heard" that some cultures have a "eye for a eye" rule. if someone kils ur sister you can take that mans sister or reletive and do what you will with her but you can only do what the man did to your sister.
Does the Koran endorse this? If not then why isnt the Koran held in higher regard and have prioritie over cultures? After all those countrys is where the Koran started.

[Pinkie]

I'm a Christian
Hit me with your best shot thats all i can say.
Also this may seem harsh but what u posted is very misleading!
I have looked at the attack that you have posted against Christianity, In all my years of arguments I have never seen someone so confidently backing there ponit of view more that you sir. I cannot believe that you can make you argument out of sand. Have you ever made a sand castle? You should know that it never stands forever and if the designer makes one mistake the whole structure comes falling down. But the person making the sand castle knows this and tries not to make a mistake. I applaud you that you have actually read the bible, but did you happen to forget or skip what the bible said about slavery? Or where you just hoping that a Christian would not read this scripture that says in



1 Corinthians 7:21
21Were you a slave when you were called? That shouldn’t bother you. However, if you have a chance to become free, take it.


How can you so confidently affirm and promote this topic yet you have no idea whatsoever about it!
Yes you have managed to find scriptures that on the surface look appealing to your point. But let me ask you this question what would you rather Paul to say? "Slave disobey your master, don’t listen to the, seek there blood at all times so you can be free, harass the rulers and governments and force them to set you free. Rebel against them all the time, this is what god wonts?" Would you prefer that???
You have no bases for your argument! A sandy tower that is all. You have already man the mistake of not reading the other scriptures well enough, and you write on opinion, fiction, NO FACTS IN IT! And then you push you point forward like a blind bull hoping to hit something. I my years this rate 1/10 for a argument, I have more trouble teaching a 5 year old. Don’t make this mistake again please. I will not always be here to write back to you.
That the Koran says to speak on truth/facts? Yes? If you interpret it differently then does that mean you can lie at will and cause chaos and confusion for readers?
You reap what you sow. Sow facts and you will get a better reply and speak only on facts! facts! facts! facts! facts! facts! facts! facts!
I do not wish to cause offence to you in the way that I am writing, but I see chaos and confusion for anyone reading this and taking it for the truth!
Now I have a question for you, an Islamic man told me once,

"In contrast to the Christian teaching that human nature is basically evil [owing to the Original Sin], Islam teaches that it is essentially good. The thing you should remember that if you repent and follow it up with positive action, then you have made a difference Masha'Allah."
Also:
"The meaning of life is not love. It is part of life."
Wat about comunisim, in theroy it is perfect way to run a country but in reality, results show it is modern day Slavery, am i wrong? What about China, North Korea, Mother Russia and many more... why did it fail?Sadam is a good piture of human nature.
I see human nature in my, peers and in history. I find it greedy, power hungry, ugly, and having a killer edge to it. I know a killer he said "there was something in me to kill" now what was this in him to kill. Was it his rebelous side telling him to rebel? Where is the silver lining?
but then if love is only part (like a peace of a pie) then what is the rest? ( bad pie?) How can u discern if a part of you is rebeling or if its just the human nature that is good; how do u discern them.
example: If you get an idea to do somthing that is not out of love because he said its not the meaning of life, then you have good reason to do this thing that is not from love, how can u discern if its one or the other?
Also:
I have a riddle for you.

Monkey see monkey do,
Muhummand kill so why cant you?

Isnt he you example on how to live? I "heard" that some cultures have a "eye for a eye" rule. if someone kils ur sister you can take that mans sister or reletive and do what you will with her but you can only do what the man did to your sister.
Does the Koran endorse this? If not then why isnt the Koran held in higher regard and have prioritie over cultures? After all those countrys is where the Koran started.


So, I will ask you about the concept of original sin. How can a baby be tainted with sin? If an 8 year old child dies, does he go to heaven or to hell?

[Marg'iloniy]

Shu savol bush qolib ketibdi, Shogird balki siz javob berarsiz ???

So, I will ask you about the concept of original sin. How can a baby be tainted with sin? If an 8 year old child dies, does he go to heaven or to hell?

[Amplifier]

To quickly answer your first question its simple.
Hebrews 4:12

12God's word is living and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and cuts as deep as the place where soul and spirit meet, the place where joints and marrow meet. God's word judges a person's thoughts and intentions. 13No creature can hide from God. Everything is uncovered and exposed for him to see. We must answer to him.

Everything is exposed and deep down god knows the childs innocents, thats where Jesus mercy is huge. The child would go to heaven.

there is a time in a persons life where they loose the innocents and relise the difference between right and wrong.

I am freed from the original sin, cuz of Jesus who has forgivin me of all my sins. salvation is a gift you dont have to work for it!

when someone know the difference between right and wrong and has heard the bible and yet still rejects the truth then he goes to hell. But i will not condemn anyone to this ever because no one knows what the holy spirit does when someone is about to die.

And then to answer your 2nd question:
how can a baby to tainted with sin?

It goes back to adam and eve. there was no law to bring a concequense against them so he made one for them, he realised the evil of man and that man could not live for eternity and keep on rebeling because he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, so he and we have knowledge of good and evil and we still rebel.

So he let sin travel to all of adams childern so they have a shorted life on this earth. could you think of this world full of killers that live for eternity. but he gave Jesus as our living sacrifice for our sins because of adams one sin. one man for one sin for all!

did that help?

AND

i dont understand what that person said to me, its in another language.

[Shogird]

Shu savol bush qolib ketibdi, Shogird balki siz javob berarsiz ???

Tepadagi aytilgan narsalar haqida o'ylayapman hozircha.

P.S. Yangi avatarlar qulluq bo'lsin Marg'iloniy. :D

[Marg'iloniy]

Tepadagi javoblar umuman qoniqarsiz dip uylayman, manimcha buni sizam tan olarsiz.

sizi kamsitmoqchi emasman, lekin hamma ochgan threadlarizda postlarizda kup savollarni ochiq qoldirib ketasiz, yoki keyin javob berishizi aytasiz yoki gapni aylantirib - aylantirib asosiy narsani tashlab ketasiz.

Modomiki uzingizni to'g'ri yo'lda dep hisoblar ekansiz boshqalarni ishontiradigan, qoniqtiradigan javob berishiz kerak.

Tepadagi aytilgan narsalar haqida o'ylayapman hozircha.

P.S. Yangi avatarlar qulluq bo'lsin Marg'iloniy. :D

[Amplifier]

I Cannot Understand Can U Speak English?