USA - a christian country? (ATTN aj-b bola and its kinds)

[MUHLIS]

Hello everyone. It has been a while since I visited this forum last time. There were very interesting and in some ways, funny discussions here as a result of immature posts from a-b bola:
I don’t need someone’s history lessons either about how Islam was good to people with different religions. It’s not the Muslim Spain era which is the greatest as far as people living in harmony. It is the current day United States of America where people from all over the world with millions of different points of views are living in harmony side by side. If you don’t like it here go live in Saudi Arabia.
These thoughts forced me to open a new discussion on America, civilization, secularizm, and religion.
1. Christianity's role in creation of America.
In back in 1200 -17000ds the Eurpoean continent was largely christian and was controlled by centralized christian churches like roman catholic, english church, and orthodox churches. I am not going to talk here how the christian authorities resisted to science, progress, and freedom by presecution and killings. Appreciate if somebody will cover this topic in detail. Some people and nations in europe began attempting to practice their religious belifs independently from Roman pope or English churches. This was primarily caused by despotic rule of the corrupt and rigid centralized churches. These people were labled as "Protestants".
Protestants were preached and killed throughout the Europe and the continent was full of violence and killings.
When the New World was discovered (the existence of which was theoretically proved centuries ago by a Muslim scientist Al Beruni), discriminated protestants began moving to the "Land of Freedom" (from centralized churches). The first settlers in the New World were Protestants.
The United States of America was created as a secular (from centralized churches) state and it was fundamentally different from christian empires. By adoption of its constitution, the government of United States guaranteed religious freedom (from churches) to its citizens. The US government also promised to protect private property because in church-states private property was not well protected.
Dear ajoyib bola the united states was created as a shelter to unprotected and poor people of Europe who were oppresed and persecuted by the centralized churches. IT IS NOT A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY! At least originally was not!!!
Unfortunately, ultra-concervative and radical christian groups are gradually turning the United States into an aggressive anti-islamic country who is attacking islamic countries one after another despite the world community's and its citizen's criticisms. You say people from all over the world with millions of different points of views are living in harmony side by side.. Perhaps, it might have been so until recent times. Even if it was so, it did not happen because of christianity!!! But this is not true now! Most muslim citizens and immigrants have their fingerprints and other data in CIA and mosques and islamic centers and their financial activities are under intense watch by spies. Many muslim citizens are constantly being cultivated to work for CIA and other agencies in sharing data on Islamic countries. In some cases muslim people are given US citizenship to serve for these purposes. In current days there is visible split or gap between theopinion of the us government and general public. Moreover, the government is manipulating mass media and information to bar people from alternative sources. I suspect the US might split into several parts if the gap between us citizens and government will continue to grow. It will definately will happen if Jeff Bush or another retarded ultra-concervative will become a successor of the current idiot.
2. Civilization. Hurmatli Ajoyib Bola, hozir siz va boshqa ko'pchilik Taraqqiyot deb tushunayotgan narsalar aslida Tanazzul bo'lib chiqishi mumkin.
Just look at what is happening in so called "civilized" countries. Basic human values and ethics are on the verge of extinction. Gay marriages, drug abuse, HIV, alcohol abuse, imporoper sex life, millions of children who do not know who their fathers are, half-naked people full of tatoos and piercings on their bodies, etc cannot be considered as "civilization" by any rationally thinking person. They talk about gender rights while agressively using female body for advertisement, they talk about equality while its citizens still classified into "black", "white", "hispanic", etc.
What is going on? Is that "civilization"? I think this is "devilization" even animals have better values than many ignorant kids from "civilized" countries. I cannot hug my best friend when I see him in like 10 years on the street in "civilized world" because "civilized people" will suspect that we are gays...Is this "civilization"????

Europeans (in america and europe) saw Secularism (from church) as an alternative, but it is also failing and gradually leading into social and environmenal disaster. This once again proves that Islam is the only true way.
Read this:
II. Al-Baqarah (Sigir)
Rahmon va Rahim bo’lgan Alloh nomi ila.
1. Alif. Lám. Mím.
2. Bu kitobda shubha yo’q, u taqvolilar uchin yo’l ko’rsatuvchidir.
3. Unlar G’ayibga ishonurlar, namoz o’qirlar va Biz ularga bergan rizqdan nafaqa qilurlar.
4. Va ular senga tushurilganga va sendan oldingilarga tushurilganlarga iymon keltirurlar, va ohiratga aniq ishonurlar.
5. Ana bular, Robbilaridan bo’lgan hidoiyat yo’lidalar va shulargina najot topguchilardir.
6. Shubhasiz, inkor etuvchilarni ogoh etasanmi, ogoh etmaysanmi, ular uchun farqi yo’q, ishonmaslar.
7. Alloh ularning ko’zlari va quloqlarini muhrlab qo’ygan, ko’zlarida parda bor. Ularga ulkan azob bordir.
8. Insonlardan shundaylari bordirki: “Allohga va ohirat kuniga imon keltirdik,” deydilar, ammo aslida ishonganlardan emaslar.
9. Ular Allohni va iymonlilarni aldamoqchi bo’lurlar, aslida esa ular faqat o’zlarini aldayotganlarini sezmaydilar.
10. Ularning qalbida hastalik bor va Alloh hastaliklarini ziyoda qilmish. Yolg’on so’zlaganliklari uchun ularga achchiq bir azob bor.
11. Ularga: “Yer yuzida fasod chiqarmang,” deyilganda: “Biz faqat isloh etuvchilarmiz” derlar.
12. Bilingki, haqiqatda, asl fasodchilar ularning o’zi, ammo sezmaydilar.
13. Va ularga: “Odamlar iymon keltirgani kabi, siz xam iymon keltiring,” deyilganda: “Esipastlar iymon keltirganidek iymon keltiramizmi?” derlar. Bilingki haqiqatda, asl esipastlar o’zlaridir, ammo sezmaydilar.
14. Ular iymon keltirganlarni uchratsalar: “Iymon keltirdik,” derlar. Shaytonlari bilan yolg’iz qolganda esa derlarki:”Subhasiz biz sen bilanmiz, (ularga) faqat istehzo qilyapmiz halos”
15. (Aslida) Alloh ularni istehzo qiladi va tug’yonlari og’ushida dovdirab (uyon-buyon) tentishlariga qo’yib beradi.
16. Ana bular, hidoyatga zalolatni sotib olganlar. Faqat bu tijoratlari aslo foydasizdir va to’g’ri yo’lni xam yo’qotmishlar.
17. Bularning o’rnagi o’t yoqqan odamning holiga o’xshaydi. Endi (alanga) atrofini yoritishi bilan Alloh ularning yorug’ligini ketkazur va qorong’u zulmatlar ichida qoldiraveradi. Ular ko’ra bilmaydilar.
18. Kar, soqov, va ko’rdilar. Shu tufayli ular (to’g’ri yo’lga) qaytmaydilar.
19. Yoki ko’kdan shiddatli yomg’ir yog’ib, qorong’u bosib, chaqmoq va momaqaldiroqlar chaqib turganda qo’rquvga tushib, o’lim dahshatida barmoqlarini quloqlariga tiqqanga o’xsharlar. Alloh kofirlarni atrofini qurshaguchidir.
20. Chaqmoq ularning ko’zlarini olajak; har oydinlatganda (biroz) yurarlar, ustilarini qorong’ulik bosganda esa to’xtaydilar. Alloh istasa ularni ko’rish va eshitishdan mahrum etadi. Shubhasiz, Alloh har narsaga kuchi yetguchidir.
21. Ey insonlar, sizni va sizdan oldingilarni yaratgan Robbingizga qullik qilingki saqlanarsiz.

[Jennifer]

Salom,

I'm an American and agree that the United States is not a "Christian" country.

However, we are much more civilized than you might care to admit. If I were ever accused of a serious crime, this is one country where I feel I would be given a just trial.

If you are discriminated against, you can easily file a lawsuit and often win. Not many countries can say the same.

Not too long ago, an unmarried woman in Africa gave birth to a child. Her sentence was to be stoned to death while the father of the child was set completely free. That would never, ever happen in the United States.

I'll be the very first to admit that we have many, many problems! But compared to other countries, the US is one of the most fair and just societies in the world. (Please note I did not say "the" most fair or just, but definitely one of the most)

In current days there is visible split or gap between theopinion of the us government and general public.

I think if you'll look around, you'll find that is true for many countries! Unfortunately, though, people in many countries can be penalized for speaking against their governments. In fact, that's probably why the problems of the US are more well-known. We are very free to speak our minds. I only wish people everywhere could do the same.

[MUHLIS]

Salom,

I'm an American and agree that the United States is not a "Christian" country.
Vaaleykum Assalom.
Thanks for the reply. The United States is not only a "non-Christian country", but it was also created by people who were preached, oppressed, and tortured by Christian churches. It was created as a secular (from church) state. People who tried to escape centralized churches created it. For that reason, we can say that the church has nothing to do thing the United States' success and development.

However, we are much more civilized than you might care to admit. If I were ever accused of a serious crime, this is one country where I feel I would be given a just trial.
I never said that the US was "uncivilized". So there is no need to prove me how civilized you are. I totally agree that the United States is one of the most civilized countries. However, it is not because of Christianity. Do you agree with that?
If you are discriminated against, you can easily file a lawsuit and often win. Not many countries can say the same.
Nice words, but not a good answer if you wrote this statement as a response to my words about existence of racial classification (and so segregation and discrimination) in the us.
It is no secret to anyone that court games are not something that impoverished Black, Asian, or Hispanic people can afford every time when they feel discriminated. Why, banks, universities and other federal, state, and country governments ask for race in everything? What if a person does not want to be classified by race at all? Various quotas and privileges for non-white people are actually serving for continued segregation of minorities and preventing them feel as EQUAL members of the country. Why would a state university or a social security agency care about the race of a citizen? Would race determine anything? Why would the US police and intelligence agencies target Black and Hispanic people as primary suspects for crimes? Isn't it racial prejudice?

Not too long ago, an unmarried woman in Africa gave birth to a child. Her sentence was to be stoned to death while the father of the child was set completely free. That would never, ever happen in the United States.
Even though this is extremely subjective example, I believe there were some reasons for that to happen. Family, sex-life and marriage are one of the most important aspects of the social life of humans. Throughout centuries people of various races, nationalities, and religions have developed certain moral and social codes of conduct in that regard. Strict prohibition of pre-marriage sex, social (wedding) and religious (going to mullah, pastor, jewish rabbi, etc) ceremonies are common to almost all people and cultures of the world. I genuinely believe that our ancestors have had some good reasons for developing these norms during their hundreds of thousands years.
Power of the rule (be it social or legal) is in certainty of the chastisement. Exceptions and leniency make rules become weak and gradually non-existent. About the consequences of having sex without marriage. If people begin having sex without marriage, they will begin to have multiple partners, begin trying to avoid parental responsibilities, etc that might result in various conflicts, diseases, and other social, moral, and health problems. First of all, it will put the woman under serious threat of becoming the only responsible parent for rising and sustaining possible child or a child will be completely orphaned, or even worse will be killed by abortion. We (at least many of us) have parents (living or passed) and we know who they are. Imagine a child who does not know who his/her father is. Depriving (most of the time for a short enjoyment) the right of having parents is a crime against this innocent child. Secondly, sexual deceases, gays, transsexuals, “gothic”, and other such ugly things makes people closer to Satan will become common. Woman’s body will be used as a tool to make money in advertisement, pornography, prostitution, etc. I sometimes hear those gay “families” are now adopting children….
In my opinion this is devilization not civilization. I do not know how long such kind of “civilization” will last and what would be its benefit to upcoming generation of humanity.


I'll be the very first to admit that we have many, many problems! But compared to other countries, the US is one of the most fair and just societies in the world. (Please note I did not say "the" most fair or just, but definitely one of the most)
Yes, there is some degree of justice and fairness in the United States than many countries of the world. But again, it is not because of Christianity.

I think if you'll look around, you'll find that is true for many countries!
OMG! You are the first American I have ever seen suggesting to look at other countries as an example! Bravo!!! I though every single American think that the US is the ideal country and the rest of the world should take examples only from the US!!! The United States government and press know what tribes contradict each other in Tanzania or Indonesia, but they do not know how many Hispanic people in the south (originally Mexican lands) feel powerless against the white supremacy. The United States can endlessly criticize Burma or Turkmenistan, or Belarus as “dictator” country. On the other hand never criticizes Norway, Spain, Great Britain and other European monarchies. In the UK passports it is written that they belong to “her excellency”, I personally would never want to belong to “her highness”!!! Canada, Australia and other similar countries are officially part of British colonies; they can only have prime ministers. Regardless of these and many other nuances, they are all considered as “democratic” but Turkmenistan who provides free public healthcare, education, transportation, electricity, gas, etc to its citizens does not count.
Unfortunately, though, people in many countries can be penalized for speaking against their governments. In fact, that's probably why the problems of the US are more well-known. We are very free to speak our minds. I only wish people everywhere could do the same.
Yes unfortunately. Hey, but you know, it is their business not America’s. I do not understand why America, at least Bush administration positions itself as a “master” in the world and attempts to tell certain countries what to do. I think it is not good. I also do not understand why America helps Israel to develop military might and cooperate with the Israeli government in their Nuclear Programs, while the same US says “Iran cannot have it”! But why? They say “Coz, we don’t like’em, they are MOZlEm, they’re terrorist, they can attack US and Israel! Enough that one MOZlEm country, the PAK’s got nukes!”. How nice!!! WHAT IF ISRAEL LAUNCHES NUCLEAR ATTACK ON GERMANY OR SAUDI ARABIA because one killed 6 mln jews and the other is supporting PA? Bush said, in his inaugural speech “We will stand with those who stand up for their freedom.” What is he doing now? One afghan resident said “They came and dropped bombs everywhere, they blew up my house, my wife, two (all) kids died, I lost my two legs….one month later they came and gave me a pack of food and clothes….”!!!
Compare the US’s reputation in the world during the rule of Bill Clinton and this…. Bush. It is no secret that Bush is ultra-conservative Christian who frequently says “God bless (only) America” and continuously bombing and killing Muslims. What about Ashcroft who set up a rule of “praying to God every morning” in his office while serving for Federal Government of a secular country??? Look how one extremist christian changed the reputation of the United States. Remember recently how he was promoting his fellow ultra-conservative fellow woman to the post of the Judge of the Supreme Court? Do you remember how he justified her candidacy?
Actually, do you remember how he got elected past Al Gore? Through “re-counting” of votes in Florida where his brother JEFF BUSH is a governor! Why in such fair and democratic country 3 (three) people of the same family can become presidents two times, three terms, and governors of at least two states for at least three terms? Do you really believe this is just a coincidence? What is the probability of this coincidence happening among people of a nation with over 200 mln population? Or would you say Bush are so smart? Then why America experiencing such setbacks during their reign? Why two of the president Bushs waged wars with Iraq? Oil? Religion? Probably both!!!
I have many American friends, teachers, co-workers, etc and all of them are great people. I lived in the states and it is a great country. Probably that is why I am not and cannot be indifferent to what is going on in this “Land of Freedom”. But current political and social degradation is not going to promise anything god for this great country and its great people.

[Jennifer]

I never said that the US was "uncivilized". So there is no need to prove me how civilized you are.

I was just responding to your words: Just look at what is happening in so called "civilized" countries. Basic human values and ethics are on the verge of extinction.


I totally agree that the United States is one of the most civilized countries. However, it is not because of Christianity. Do you agree with that?

Oh dear Muhlis, I not only agree, but I agree wholeheartedly!


It is no secret to anyone that court games are not something that impoverished Black, Asian, or Hispanic people can afford every time when they feel discriminated. Why, banks, universities and other federal, state, and country governments ask for race in everything?

So they can meet quotas. A friend of mine in a large corporation needed to hire someone. He was shocked that he was more-or-less forced to hire a woman, a black, or some minority, regardless of qualification. US companies are very, very sensitive to how many minorities their companies employ. Companies are rated on how "minority friendly" they are. If they employ too many "white people" then they have a reputation of being discriminatory. That's crazy! Today, it is much easier for a woman or minority to find higher positions than white men. We've replaced one form of discrimination with another.

What if a person does not want to be classified by race at all?

If that person is a minority, then he loses out on a lot of special treatment. Personally, I find it very degrading. It's saying, "These people aren't talented or bright enough to get the position by their own accords."

Why would a state university or a social security agency care about the race of a citizen?

Because if they don't have a good mix of minorities, they can lose federal funding.

Why would the US police and intelligence agencies target Black and Hispanic people as primary suspects for crimes? Isn't it racial prejudice?

Your reply is very much correct. The vast majority of people on death row were raised by single parents. Unfortunately, the majority of black children in the US are born out-of-wedlock. When that fact is pointed out, it is sharply attacked as being racist.

Exceptions and leniency make rules become weak and gradually non-existent.

Many, many Americans agree completely with you! It is totally socially acceptable in American society to become a single parent by choice. We are also becoming a huge welfare state.

Even one of our most famous movie stars, Tom Cruise, will be having an illegitimate child very soon.


Woman’s body will be used as a tool to make money in advertisement, pornography, prostitution, etc.

I can only argue that prostitution is not nearly the problem here that it is in many other countries. I'm not saying it doesn't occur here or that it isn't a problem, but many Asian countries sell young girls in the family into prostitution. If that problem occurs here, it is not generally known. And, as "nosy" as our press is, someone would find out about it soon and advertise that fact.

I sometimes hear those gay “families” are now adopting children….

The subject is highly controversial.

Yes, there is some degree of justice and fairness in the United States than many countries of the world. But again, it is not because of Christianity.

I really believe it is a high degree, despite all the problems. But again, I agree 100% with you that it's not because of Christianity! I cringe whenever I hear the words "Christian values." Gee thanks, does that mean the rest of us heathens are mere animals?! It's highly insulting. Just imagine if some politician say that he is highly moral with a solid background of Muslim (or Jewish) values. Excuse my language, but all hell would break loose! It would be insulting to others, of course. Yet, it ostensibly is all right for Christians.

OMG! You are the first American I have ever seen suggesting to look at other countries as an example! Bravo!!! I though every single American think that the US is the ideal country and the rest of the world should take examples only from the US!!!

Ha! I should introduce you to several of my friends. Sure, I'll defend the States against unwarranted attacks, but there are many facets of politics and societial mores that I think are better in other states. I could take any country in the world and state several positive examples that the country possesses. And, I could take that same country and state several highly problematic areas -- the US, Uzbekistan, England, Nigeria -- any country on earth.

On the other hand never criticizes Norway, Spain, Great Britain and other European monarchies.

Actually, there are criticisms of those countries in the press. I'll agree that they don't comprise the majority of news stories by any means, but there are criticisms, generally about the socialist politics.

Yes unfortunately. Hey, but you know, it is their business not America’s.

I very much agree, but there is another way to look at it. If your next-door neighbor kept his wife locked up in the house and was beating her and not allowing her to speak her mind or to leave the house -- it's none of your business, right? I think the rationale is that people should be able to make their own choices, even if they depart from ours. However, the sad fact is that some people may want to make their own choices but are not given that opportunities due to oppressive governments.

If I saw an older child beating up on a younger child, it's none of my business. Yet, I could not stand by and do nothing. I would help the younger child because we should all help those who, for whatever reason, cannot help themselves.

I also do not understand why America helps Israel to develop military might

My guess is that a lot of countries would love nothing more than to obliterate Israel.

Look how one extremist christian changed the reputation of the United States.

Actually, a liberal government would contribute a great deal more to what you call an uncivilized country -- the gay marriage and all of that. Clinton was a horrible president and was impeached. Fortunately, he was a darling of the press who tried to protect him as much as possible. Bush is highly unpolished. I'm not necessarily defending Bush at all, but he just isn't as clever as Clinton in shaping his public image.

Why two of the president Bushs waged wars with Iraq? Oil? Religion? Probably both!!!

You'd have to ask them yourself! I couldn't begin to speak for them.

Take care.

[Administrator]

If your next-door neighbor kept his wife locked up in the house and was beating her and not allowing her to speak her mind or to leave the house -- it's none of your business, right? I


i live in uzbekistan and as i have seen here wife beating is ussually practised by christians(russians) not by moslems,i dont think number of "wife beating"s is more in islamic world than it happens in western world,i know as westerner you are brainwashed about how moslems beat their wifes (and other blah blahs) but if you yourself will go into each society and compare ,,believe in me unfortunatly for you will rocognize than wife beating is practised in much more in cristian worl than in moslem world.
btw...and when i see each time an uzbek who beats his wife i see that he is typical alhocolic or something in this type who has nothing with islam and most interesting thing is here when this type of uzbeks suddenly become religous and start 5 times praying they just stop beating their wifes and became very serious who cares about thire families....

[Jennifer]

i live in uzbekistan and as i have seen here wife beating is ussually practised by christians(russians) not by moslems,i dont think number of "wife beating"s is more in islamic world than it happens in western world,i know as westerner you are brainwashed about how moslems beat their wifes (and other blah blahs)

You are fabricating a non-existent conversation. I gave an example of a neighbor beating his wife as a very general one, not specific to any race, religion, or culture. It never occurred to me that anyone would twist it to mean any specific culture or religion.

Please, please read carefully and don't jump to wild conclusions! Unfortunately, you've automatically assumed (in another thread) that I'm Christian (I'm not at all) and that my example was speaking against Islam (it wasn't at all, and the message implied nothing of the sort). If you want people to understand your messages without adding additional information that is not present, kindly do the same for the messages you read. Miscommunication is a major reason people for conflict.

[MUHLIS]

Dear Jennifer,
Thank very much for supporting, as an American, what I said regarding Christianity and the USA.
The major focus of this thread was to remind some people, including ajoyib bola, that the United States' accomplishments and successes are not (purely) because of Christianity. Well, emergence of the United States in some ways can be viewed as a positive externality (or uninteded result) of centralized churches. Therefore, the United States is not a christian country. It is just a country where christians are a majority.

[ajoyib_bola]

I don't agree with this post. Whether you like it or not, America has a Christian heritage and nothing is going to change it. Any statement otherwise would show ignorance. Read the Declaration of Independence. That's the document America was founded upon along with the Constitution and the Bill of Rights later. Also note that their monetary bills say "In God We Trust." Those Protestants were Christians too not secular people as you are suggesting. They wanted a government that didn't restrict their religious freedom like the Britain was doing by making everyone follow a certain religion (Catholicism). So it was written in the US constitution that the government wouldn't establish a religion that forced people to believe in. To me it was a great move. Everyone has to be free to believe in whatever religion they want. Only God can judge them in the end whether they were right or not. But that doesn't mean America wasn't a Christian nation originally. In fact it's the opposite of what you are saying. America was a Christian nation, but now it's less Christian.
I certainly wasn't taught what you are saying in my secular college history courses.