Books on CHRISTIANITY/Masihiylik Haqida Kitoblar [Archive] - Uzbekistan Online Forum

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Shogird

11-30-2005, 12:54 AM

Fellow Forumers,

I decided to start this thread to gather materials, sources and books on Christianity.

This is my encouragement to Ulughbek and others to examine the Christianity and its Message.

Please give a short annotation to your material. Thanks.

Shogird:D

Shogird

11-30-2005, 01:11 AM

tarafdor

11-30-2005, 04:38 AM

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0802826806.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0802826806.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-
The Familiar Stranger: An Introduction to Jesus of Nazareth
By: Michael J. McClymond (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/search?author=Michael%20J.%20McClymond&detailed_search=1&action=Search)

Description: This is a readable introduction to "the historical Jesus"; his life, his world, his sayings and doings, accounts of his death and resurrection, and his follower's efforts to understand him. It brings together two of the most fruitful models for understanding Jesus and his mission: the "moral sage" and Jesus the "eschatalogical prophet." Readers familiar with Jesus may well find him becoming a stranger to them through the pages, and to those to whom Jesus is a stranger may discover a growing familiarity with him.

Shogird, visit yahoo search or library of your church..sure you will find alot of books...have a nice search..:lol:

THE DISBELIEVERS (109) (al-kafirun)

In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful
(Muhammad), tell the disbelievers, (109:1)
"I do not worship what you worship, (2)
nor do you worship what I worship (3)
I have not been worshipping what you worshipped, (4)
nor will you worship what I shall worship (5).
You follow your religion and I follow mine (6).

Jennifer

11-30-2005, 07:27 AM

Hello Shogard,

Out of curiosity, do you feel that non-Christians should also examine the message of Islam and Judaism?

Shogird

11-30-2005, 09:44 AM

Hello Shogard,

Out of curiosity, do you feel that non-Christians should also examine the message of Islam and Judaism?
I think so. Islam is not religion only it is ideology too. The ideology much stronger than Communist ideology. These two ideologies have similarities. Islam is not only seeking religious domination but also political. So I think Non-Christians especially Westerners need to examine this religion.

Shogird

11-30-2005, 09:52 AM

:o :o Shogird, visit yahoo search or library of your church..sure you will find alot of books...have a nice search..:lol:

THE DISBELIEVERS (109) (al-kafirun)

In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful
(Muhammad), tell the disbelievers, (109:1)
"I do not worship what you worship, (2)
nor do you worship what I worship (3)
I have not been worshipping what you worshipped, (4)
nor will you worship what I shall worship (5).
You follow your religion and I follow mine (6).

Oh really I did not kow that. :)
I know you can find all kinds of books if you need.
The reason I put this thread is to see whether we doing independent inquire or just listening to ready made answers.

SHOHRUHM1

11-30-2005, 11:04 AM

:o :o

Oh really I did not kow that. :)
I know you can find all kinds of books if you need.
The reason I put this thread is to see whether we doing independent inquire or just listening to ready made answers.

still christian????

Shogird

11-30-2005, 02:09 PM

still christian????

Yes, still Christian. Is it bothering you?

What books have you read so far about Christianity?

:D

stanford

11-30-2005, 04:02 PM

Yes, still Christian. Is it bothering you?

If you are happy the way you live then it is your choice to be the way you are. But I see your life being a waste. I am not going to prove you anything because there will always be arrogant ,closed-mind people like you that try to find an excuse not to follow the truth from God and a lot of stupid reasons to choose to live their own vain desires like animals.

Shogird

11-30-2005, 04:46 PM

If you are happy the way you live then it is your choice to be the way you are. But I see your life being a waste. I am not going to prove you anything because there will always be arrogant ,closed-mind people like you that try to find an excuse not to follow the truth from God and a lot of stupid reasons to choose to live their own vain desires like animals.
You are entitled to your opinion. You think it is stupid so what?
Bible clearly says that the message of salvation (through Jesus Christ) is stupidity for unbelievers. They can't comprehend the message. Spiritual things are understood through the Spirit and regenerated mind.

P.S. I ask forumers to post notes relevant to the thread topic. Stanford would you be kind enough to tell us your reasons to stay in your chosen path (your religion). (Not in this thread please)

:D

Iqbol

12-01-2005, 02:38 AM

Ahmet

12-01-2005, 03:44 PM

.....So I think Non-Christians especially Westerners need to examine this religion.
They're already doing that and many of them do really find the true religion.

Shogird

12-01-2005, 09:24 PM

Here I found interesting article about great personalites of the past:

Jesus, Zoraster, Buddha, Socrates & Muhammad:
The Life, Death and Teaching of Jesus
Compared with Other Great Religious Figures
By Edwin M. Yamauchi, Ph.D.
http://www.irr.org/yamauchi.html

Shogird

12-01-2005, 09:53 PM

Shogird,

I am looking for a book about the "Christian Concept of God". Any suggestions?

Kumushbibi, I appologize for late reply to your question. Here is one link that will give you Christian evangelical view of God.

(Definition of Evangelical: Evangelical Of, relating to, or being a Christian church believing in the sole authority and inerrancy of the Bible, in salvation only through regeneration, and in a spiritually transformed personal life. )

Link: http://www.allaboutgod.com/god.htm

Shogird

12-01-2005, 10:04 PM

Hello, shogird.
Till now I tried to read some books about christianity. But, always, I get confused because the majority of books written on the issue state that the Bible is not conform to the original version and all the theology and catechism were derived from these altered sources. So, even if I read lots of lots of books on the matter, all of them will be derived from the disformed source.
So, why to continue...?
Do not lose hope dear friend. As Jesus said seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened to you. God is the source of all wisdom. Holy book says that if we ask God for wisdom He will grant us. God loves you and He does not want you to be in confusion.

Кумушбиби

12-02-2005, 04:16 AM

Kumushbibi, I appologize for late reply to your question. Here is one link that will give you Christian evangelical view of God.

(Definition of Evangelical: Evangelical Of, relating to, or being a Christian church believing in the sole authority and inerrancy of the Bible, in salvation only through regeneration, and in a spiritually transformed personal life. )

Link: http://www.allaboutgod.com/god.htm
No need for the apology. Patience is a virtue. This quality is enjoined upon the followers of both religions: yours and mine.

Thank you for the suggested reading. Having read the material, I find some of it rather difficult to comprehend. There seem to be logical problems with some of the Christian doctrines. Take the concept of Divine Sonship of Jesus, for example. Jesus (according to the Christian understanding) was a divine Son of God.

“Divine” and also a “Son”? But sonship or being a son (or daughter) describes someone who receives life from someone else and therefore has a beginning. Divine nature, on the other hand, belongs to one who receives life from nobody and therefore has no beginning or end.

How then can one be “Divine” and at the same time be a son? How can any one not have a beginning and at the same time have a beginning (i.e. a Divine Son). Or to receive life and yet to not receive life?

Iqbol

12-02-2005, 06:50 PM

Do not lose hope dear friend. As Jesus said seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened to you. God is the source of all wisdom. Holy book says that if we ask God for wisdom He will grant us. God loves you and He does not want you to be in confusion.

Dear Shogird,
I tried to read not to search for the truth, as truth lies with islam.
About your case, let's imagine an impossible thing. That you succeeded to find the sources conforming to the unchanged spirit of the message of Isa as. It will be Islam. As Jesus came with the same message from the same Allah, which is Islam....

ДЖИГИТ

12-03-2005, 02:16 AM

Examples of third-party narrations in the "Gospels" of the NT:

Let us also notice the third-party narration in the "Gospel of Matthew", and in the rest of the so-called "Gospels" of the New Testament. Here are few examples:

From www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm (http://www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm):

"...And as Jesus passed forth thence, HE (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and HE (Jesus) saith unto HIM (Matthew), follow ME (Jesus) and HE (Matthew) arose, and followed HIM (Jesus). (Matthew 9:9)"

"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? (From the King James Version Bible, John 1:19)"

"John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (From the King James Version Bible, John 1:26)"

"For John was not yet cast into prison. (From the King James Version Bible, John 3:24)"
etc.....

A lot more examples and proofs are available at:

Just who were the real authors of the Bible? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm)

Today's Books and Gospels' authors of the Bible are UNKNOWN. See the comments from the NIV Bible itself!

Shogird

12-03-2005, 03:05 AM

No need for the apology. Patience is a virtue. This quality is enjoined upon the followers of both religions: yours and mine.

Thank you for the suggested reading. Having read the material, I find some of it rather difficult to comprehend. There seem to be logical problems with some of the Christian doctrines. Take the concept of Divine Sonship of Jesus, for example. Jesus (according to the Christian understanding) was a divine Son of God.

“Divine” and also a “Son”? But sonship or being a son (or daughter) describes someone who receives life from someone else and therefore has a beginning. Divine nature, on the other hand, belongs to one who receives life from nobody and therefore has no beginning or end.

How then can one be “Divine” and at the same time be a son? How can any one not have a beginning and at the same time have a beginning (i.e. a Divine Son). Or to receive life and yet to not receive life?
Kumushbibi, I see that you are very intelligent lady. It is good to see progressive & open-minded Uzbek people. I am kind of uncomfortable to say something to you. I am not claiming to be a "master know it all". I am just sharing what God had done in my life. I am still "shogird" who is learning. Eternity is not enough to learn about God. Please excuse my broken English.

Let me try to answer your question. You have found the expression "Divine Sonship" as incomprehensible. I can understand your confusion but you rightly said that God has no beginning nor ending.

Let’s see what Bible tells us about this.

GOD
TRUE: God has no beginning nor ending.

Isaiah 44:6. “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.”
God is all knowing (Proverbs 5:21), He is everywhere at once (Psalm 139:7; Jeremy 23:23), He is all powerful (Genesis 17:1 etc.), He is unchanging (Psalm 102:26, 27),He is Only Wise (Romans 16:27); He is Unsearchable (Job 11:7, Psalm 145:3; Romans 11:38 etc.), He is Invisible (Job 23:8,9; John 1:18 etc.); He is Incorruptible (Romans 1:23), He is Eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27 etc.); He is Immortal (1 Timothy 1:17 etc.); He is in charge of the Universe and everything (Exodus 6:16). Well space is not enough here to write about all the attributes of God.

Hebrew Scripture calls Him as Elohim (translated as God, Elohim is plural form of Eloah, in Arabic Allah) and Yahweh (Jehowah) translated as Lord

JESUS
TRUE: Man Jesus of Nazareth was conceived of the Holy Spirit was born through Mary. Here we see the human origins of Jesus. His ancestry goes from Mary up to Adam. According to the Bible every person came from first humans, Adam and Eve. Jesus not only came from Adam, His genealogy includes great prophets and men of God such as Abraham, Isaac, David, Solomon etc. See Matthew 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:17;&version=50;).

Definition of DNA:
DNA: it contains the genetic code and transmits the hereditary pattern.Webster New World Dictionary
Now let us see if title "Son of God" is appropriate to Jesus logically.
Bible and Quran confirm that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Mathew 1:20; Sura 3:46).

Now let’s examine the word Father.
According to the Webster New World Dictionary, Father can be defined as an originator, founder, or inventor. We know that human being is conceived when spermatozoon enters the ovum and fertilize it. Spermatozoon has the DNA (information) of a biological father. This germ cell is part of the biological father and now it is autonomous and after fertilization in ovum and after partaking the nature of a mother it is ontologically new identity, meaning it has the nature of a mother and father. It is the product of union of male and female. God has purpose and meaning for everything. God did this so through His visible creations we can understand His invisible qualities.

Having said that may I ask you who was the beginner or originator of baby Jesus? Some people wrongly think that God had physical relationship with Mary and made a baby. This is blasphemy. God is Spirit and creator of everything. He is Holy and invisible, omnipresent and inconceivable to human mind. In our modern language Jesus had the "Divine DNA". Word of God became flesh. He is both Son of Man (Human origin) and Son of God (Divine origin).
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. John 1:1-4. This introduction of Jesus Christ Bible calls as the great mystery which revealed at the end of the ages.

Why God has to bring baby Jesus without Father through His Spirit?
God had a purpose for that. In Jesus Christ two natures came together. Bible says that in body of Jesus Christ God reconciled the humanity to himself. Why God had to do that? Because of the problem of humanity. Sin. God in the Bible says that man (woman) is corrupt from his (her) heart.
“This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.” Ecclesiastes 9:3.
Genesis 6:5 “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
Through death and resurrection of Jesus Christ God solves the problem of the sin in the flesh (heart). Through Second Adam (Jesus) God redeems the humanity to Himself. That is why Jesus said that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he or she is born again from above (from the Spirit of God). It is about Spiritual birth or regeneration. If one comes & truly repents from his sins and accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior that person becomes new creation. That person will be born of Holy Spirit, Spirit of God. He or she obtains the right to become sons and daughters of God. This is God’s good news and free gift to humanity. To be saved they need to accept God’s provision, believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus died for their sins. See Romans 10:9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010:9;&version=50;).

Jesus had not only Divine origin but also Divine Nature. Jesus calls himself both as Son of Man and Son of God. Incomprehensible and Invisible God can be known through His Divine Extension, Jesus.
All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Luke 10:22
Romans 5:14-15.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. Many people confused about Distinctiveness and unity of God. Followers of Jesus do not worship three gods. One good Christian writer Mateen Elass says that we worship one God who revealed himself in three persons, “all whom share the same essence and nature.”

There are many things to write but to make it short I can say that Jesus is God’s instrument to accomplish His mission in universe. He is not only instrument but God’s beloved Son, Word of God who came from the heart of God. God made him ruler of everything. Every nation will bow down before Him. He will defeat the Anti-Christ (Dajjol). At the resurrection day He will judge every person according to their deeds. Once everything subdued to Him, once mission is accomplished and once man is redeemed He will subdue Himself to God the Father (1Corinthians 15:26-28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Corinthians%2015:26-28;&version=50;)). Until then He is the sole Mediator between Man and God. Amen.

Shogird

12-03-2005, 03:07 AM

Here are some verses:
John 5:22-24 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,That all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be-"The LORD is one," And His name one.

Shogird

12-03-2005, 03:39 AM

Examples of third-party narrations in the "Gospels" of the NT:

"John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (From the King James Version Bible, John 1:26)"

"For John was not yet cast into prison. (From the King James Version Bible, John 3:24)"
etc.....

Djigit welcome to this new thread. You brought up the issue of authorship. I will try to bring some sources and give my comment on this issue.

Djigit I see your zeal and willingness to learn. I would advise you to check some Biblical facts even if you don't agree. Double check your above mentioned quotes from BIble. There are two different Johns: John the Baptist (Yah'yo Payg'ambar) and John the Disciple (Yuhanno). John the baptist who did not write anything except calling people for repentance and preparing people for the coming of Messiah. Happy learning and Merry Christmas :)

Shogird

12-03-2005, 11:07 AM

Dear Shogird,
I tried to read not to search for the truth, as truth lies with islam.
About your case, let's imagine an impossible thing. That you succeeded to find the sources conforming to the unchanged spirit of the message of Isa as. It will be Islam. As Jesus came with the same message from the same Allah, which is Islam....

Bienvenu, here is one website. I hope it will be helpful to you.

http://www.jesus-institute.org/index.shtml

Pinkie

12-03-2005, 11:28 AM

Does anyone know any interesting books about Isa?

Iqbol

12-03-2005, 04:35 PM

1) http://www.harunyahya.com/jesus01.php

2) Jesus: Prophet of Islam
Muhammad Ata Ur-Rahim (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-fr-intl-us&field-author=Ata%20Ur-Rahim%2C%20Muhammad/171-1933246-1798609), Ahmad Thomson (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-fr-intl-us&field-author=Thomson%2C%20Ahmad/171-1933246-1798609)

http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879402734/qid=1133649269/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_8_2/171-1933246-1798609[/SIZE]

3) The True Message of Jesus Christ
Bilal Philips (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-fr-intl-us&field-author=Philips%2C%20Bilal/171-1933246-1798609)
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/8172313608/qid=1133649269/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_8_5/171-1933246-1798609

(I haven't read these books myself. But, if you want to read about Jesus, you can take any Tafseer and read the ayats concerning Iso as. I think you can find many of them in English, like those of Ibn Katheer or Tabari)

Shogird

12-04-2005, 07:27 AM

Does anyone know any interesting books about Isa?

How about Gospel of Luke for the beginning.

Read in English:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/luke-asv.html

Read in Turkish:
http://www.funet.fi/pub/doc/bible/html/turkish/Lu.html

JAVA

12-04-2005, 06:52 PM

How about bible, the main source of pornography????

S kakih por christianity stalo perevoditsya maihijlik??? Tipichnyj podhod evangilistov i prochih...

Shogird

12-05-2005, 12:48 AM

How about bible, the main source of pornography???? Filthy book......
Bible is not pornographic book.
Java, I tried to understand your point of view but I couldn't. Why did you say so? Do you realize what are you saying? Bible is unique historical and religious collection of books describing history of humanity, great prophets, kings and nations. This book considered as Holy Book of two World religions. Before putting labels you need to bring constructive reasons for your point. How would you react if someone says something like that about Quran?

Refresh your vocubalary friend.

What is Pornography?
Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal.
For complete definition check : www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)

Shogird

12-05-2005, 01:09 AM

Immanuel Kant (1724-1804)

The existence of the Bible, as a book for the people, is the greatest benefit which the human race has ever experienced. Every attempt to belittle it is a crime against humanity.

Immanuel Kant is one of the most influential philosophers in the history of Western philosophy. His contributions to metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, and aesthetics have had a profound impact on almost every philosophical movement that followed him.

Alouddin

12-05-2005, 01:29 AM

Java, Muslims do admit Injeel as a divine revelation from Allah swt... (altho we ARE talking about the initial one, not the one that we have today; therefore, the term "filthy" is improper)

Shogird

12-05-2005, 04:31 PM

Let's take a break with music :

Sister Sarah is praising God in Farsi: http://www.sarah-music.com/videos/Tekye_Gaah.wmv
(Be patient, thru DSL it takes to 2 mns to download)

More info about her album is in http://www.sarah-music.com/music.html

JAVA

12-05-2005, 07:11 PM

Bible is not pornographic book.

Java, I tried to understand your point of view but I couldn't. Why did you so? Do you realize what are you saying? Bible is unique historical and religious collection of books describing history of humanity, great prophets, kings and nations. This book considered as Holy Book of two World religions. Before putting labels you need to bring constructive reasons for your point. How would you react if someone says something like that about Quran?

Refresh your vocubalary friend.

Are you sure you wanna go into this????? I do realize what im saying and think twice or even three times before i say something! So, just tell me when you are ready...

JAVA

12-05-2005, 07:17 PM

Java, Muslims do admit Injeel as a divine revelation from Allah swt... (altho we ARE talking about the initial one, not the one that we have today; therefore, the term "filthy" is improper)

Yes brother, we like muslims have no choice but to admit the Injeel as a divine revelation, but like you pointed out , what todays christians call their bible is not Injeel. I apologise if i used such a harsh word, but when i post a couple of lines from their bible, you tell what to call their book...

Shogird

12-05-2005, 09:29 PM

Are you sure you wanna go into this????? I do realize what im saying and think twice or even three times before i say something! So, just tell me when you are ready...

Juba I will be ready after I answer the questions of other forumers. Take your number and stay in the line. If you want to fight and be nasty this is not the place to do that. God is God of order not confusion

Good day.

Iqbol

12-06-2005, 01:31 PM

Immanuel Kant (1724-1804)

Immanuel Kant is one of the most influential philosophers in the history of Western philosophy. His contributions to metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, and aesthetics have had a profound impact on almost every philosophical movement that followed him.

Oh, Shogird, you are so zealous to propagate the "Christian" message within this forum. I didn't want say this remark but two or three considerations led me to express my humble opinion.
I think that everybody wants to share good things with others, and normally we shouldn't oppose to this. But, one has to be careful not to get others fed up or hurt others' feelings. As, you are in a muslim environment and you start to flood overtly partisan posts, it is normal that you will get very negative responses. I don't approve this kind of answers, but you can't avoid this.

1. And, if you take the general context, these days, there are christian culture countires who dominate the other countries. And these dominant countries think that, they have reached a point of power that no one reached in the past and no one will reach in the future. They have absolute power in intellectual, military, cultural and other fields. They are backed by lots of intellectuals, writers, scientisits, philosophes.
So, this group thinks that they have a chance ( which they never had before) to confirm their superiority and to make dissappear once for all the other differing ideologies, religions and systems of thought. They have at last acquired the power to establish the absolute domination of the christian message on the world and so to prepare the arrival of the Christ. In these countries, so called "secular" governments are in close contact with religious groups. Sometimes, these links are so skillfully masked. But, they can't hide the truth for long time. Everybody has heard of the armies of the missionaires waiting on the borders of Iraq before the invasion of this country by the "secular" Bush government. Once these "democratic fighters" went into Iraq, those armies of the missionaries also flooded this country. As they are backed by these "secular" powers, they have become more bold and they started to propagate the "christian" message overtly and more imposingly. And, I just can't separate your posts here in this forum from the above mentioned general context where the "christian" groups announce the last final battle to make disappear the "satanic muslim religion".

2. Secondly, I wanted to say some remarks concering your mentionning of E Kant and other philosophes. First of all, all these intellectuals tried to develop ideas on the happy existence of the human biengs in oppostion to religious dogma. As they were completely assured that the western society went into decadence as a result of blindly attachemnt to the dogma of the bible, they tried to develop independently different sciences in order to bring solutions to their society's problems.
Secondly, we have to affirm that, as they can't get a complete knowledge of all the aspects of the human bieng : physical, spiritual, psychologic, mental, etc; they will never be able to elaborate a total system of life that will warrant happy existence of the human biengs within a society. Even if they had good intentions, their ideas brought us to today's situation. As you said Kant and his likes influenced directly the modern political and cultural systems. Even if these systems have acquired glitterness inequaled till now, their negative consequences will also be the worst in the humanity's history. The barbarness of the
One system will come and try to unite people within one system, 20th century was horrific but the 21 st announce to be more horrific. So, thanks to Kant and his likes...

That is why, I think, from now on, your messages will start to irritate people more and more. So, don't try to use the arguments as " peaceful existence, respect of religions, etc. Because, yourself are breaking these rules. Maybe not overtly, but by your actual behavior in this forum.
There are many examples of the religious tolerance, but it doesn't mean to make intrusions into others' feelings under the cover of religious tolerance. As I already said, all your posts can't be seen apart from the general context where the armies of christian missionaries backed by your "secular" governments are starting to make attacks more and more overtly to others' religious beliefs...

Ahmet

12-06-2005, 02:34 PM

Shogird

12-06-2005, 06:59 PM

Look Shogird,

Bienvenu is right. Your missionary messages are making people just sick:shock:

Believe me man, I would support you 100% if you could write anything about Dialogue and Tolerance betwean Religions and cultures but not MISSIONARY MESSAGES:evil:

If anyone wants to learn something on Christianity just give him/her an answer by sending a private message, please.

P.S. Dialogue Is a Must:)

Hello Ahmet,
I am for dialogue. I told everyone that I am not professional missionary. See how Webster definies this word Missionary: a person sent on a mission, esp. on a religious mission.
No one send me here to write these things. I accidentally came accross to some posts in this forum about Jesus Christ which were untrue. So I wrote what I believe is true. Since I started to get a lot of responses and queistions I had to explain the reason behind my statements. So I don't have agenda to convert you Ahmet, don't worry.
If there is a dialogue that is good I am for it.:D

JAVA

12-06-2005, 07:38 PM

OK, Shogirt i know that you are probably also shy of your bible ( and i dont blame you for that), but let me paste a passage from your bible, in 2 languages russian and english. I ask my muslim brothers to forgive me, for posting such filth. Brother Alouddin, after you finish reading that passage from their bible, tell me how can i call their "holy" book?
Ezekiel 23 (King James Version)
1The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother:
3And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.
4And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.
5And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours,
6Which were clothed with blue, captains and rulers, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding upon horses.
7Thus she committed her whoredoms with them, with all them that were the chosen men of Assyria, and with all on whom she doted: with all their idols she defiled herself.
8Neither left she her whoredoms brought from Egypt: for in her youth they lay with her, and they bruised the breasts of her virginity, and poured their whoredom upon her.
9Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, upon whom she doted.
10These discovered her nakedness: they took her sons and her daughters, and slew her with the sword: and she became famous among women; for they had executed judgment upon her.
11And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.
12She doted upon the Assyrians her neighbours, captains and rulers clothed most gorgeously, horsemen riding upon horses, all of them desirable young men.
13Then I saw that she was defiled, that they took both one way,
14And that she increased her whoredoms: for when she saw men pourtrayed upon the wall, the images of the Chaldeans pourtrayed with vermilion,
15Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity:
16And as soon as she saw them with her eyes, she doted upon them, and sent messengers unto them into Chaldea.
17And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
18So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
19Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
20For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
21Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.
22Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;
23The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses.
24And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments.
25And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.
26They shall also strip thee out of thy clothes, and take away thy fair jewels.
27Thus will I make thy lewdness to cease from thee, and thy whoredom brought from the land of Egypt: so that thou shalt not lift up thine eyes unto them, nor remember Egypt any more.
28For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will deliver thee into the hand of them whom thou hatest, into the hand of them from whom thy mind is alienated:
29And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the nakedness of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
30I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.
31Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand.
32Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
33Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
34Thou shalt even drink it and suck it out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
35Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast forgotten me, and cast me behind thy back, therefore bear thou also thy lewdness and thy whoredoms.
36The LORD said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations;
37That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bare unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.
38Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.
39For when they had slain their children to their idols, then they came the same day into my sanctuary to profane it; and, lo, thus have they done in the midst of mine house.
40And furthermore, that ye have sent for men to come from far, unto whom a messenger was sent; and, lo, they came: for whom thou didst wash thyself, paintedst thy eyes, and deckedst thyself with ornaments,
41And satest upon a stately bed, and a table prepared before it, whereupon thou hast set mine incense and mine oil.
42And a voice of a multitude being at ease was with her: and with the men of the common sort were brought Sabeans from the wilderness, which put bracelets upon their hands, and beautiful crowns upon their heads.
43Then said I unto her that was old in adulteries, Will they now commit whoredoms with her, and she with them?
44Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.
45And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands.
46For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled.
47And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
48Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness. 49And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

JAVA

12-06-2005, 07:47 PM

Russian translation
1. И было ко мне слово Господне:
2 сын человеческий! были две женщины, дочери одной матери,
3 и блудили они в Египте, блудили в своей молодости; там измяты груди их, и там растлили девственные сосцы их.
4 Имена им: большой -- Огола, а сестре ее -- Оголива. И были они Моими, и рождали сыновей и дочерей; и именовались -- Огола Самариею, а Оголива Иерусалимом.
5 И стала Огола блудить от Меня и пристрастилась к своим любовникам, к Ассириянам, к соседям своим,
6 к одевавшимся в ткани яхонтового цвета, к областеначальникам и градоправителям, ко всем красивым юношам, всадникам, ездящим на конях;
7 и расточала блудодеяния свои со всеми отборными из сынов Ассура, и оскверняла себя всеми идолами тех, к кому ни пристращалась;
8 не переставала блудить и с Египтянами, потому что они с нею спали в молодости ее и растлевали девственные сосцы ее, и изливали на нее похоть свою.
9 За то Я и отдал ее в руки любовников ее, в руки сынов Ассура, к которым она пристрастилась.
10 Они открыли наготу ее, взяли сыновей ее и дочерей ее, а ее убили мечом. И она сделалась позором между женщинами, когда совершили над нею казнь.
11. Сестра ее, Оголива, видела это, и еще развращеннее была в любви своей, и блужение ее превзошло блужение сестры ее.
12 Она пристрастилась к сынам Ассуровым, к областеначальникам и градоправителям, соседям ее, пышно одетым, к всадникам, ездящим на конях, ко всем отборным юношам.
13 И Я видел, что она осквернила себя, [и что] у обеих их одна дорога.
14 Но эта еще умножила блудодеяния свои, потому что, увидев вырезанных на стене мужчин, красками нарисованные изображения Халдеев,
15 опоясанных по чреслам своим поясом, с роскошными на голове их повязками, имеющих вид военачальников, похожих на сынов Вавилона, которых родина земля Халдейская,
16 она влюбилась в них по одному взгляду очей своих и послала к ним в Халдею послов.
17 И пришли к ней сыны Вавилона на любовное ложе, и осквернили ее блудодейством своим, и она осквернила себя ими; и отвратилась от них душа ее.
18 Когда же она явно предалась блудодеяниям своим и открыла наготу свою, тогда и от нее отвратилась душа Моя, как отвратилась душа Моя от сестры ее.
19 И она умножала блудодеяния свои, вспоминая дни молодости своей, когда блудила в земле Египетской;
20 и пристрастилась к любовникам своим, у которых плоть -- плоть ослиная, и похоть, как у жеребцов.
21 Так ты вспомнила распутство молодости твоей, когда Египтяне жали сосцы твои из-за девственных грудей твоих.
22. Посему, Оголива, так говорит Господь Бог: вот, Я возбужу против тебя любовников твоих, от которых отвратилась душа твоя, и приведу их против тебя со всех сторон:
23 сынов Вавилона и всех Халдеев, из Пехода, из Шоа и Коа, и с ними всех сынов Ассура, красивых юношей, областеначальников и градоправителей, сановных и именитых, всех искусных наездников.
24 И придут на тебя с оружием, с конями и колесницами и с множеством народа, и обступят тебя кругом в латах, со щитами и в шлемах, и отдам им тебя на суд, и будут судить тебя своим судом.
25 И обращу ревность Мою против тебя, и поступят с тобою яростно: отрежут у тебя нос и уши, а остальное твое от меча падет; возьмут сыновей твоих и дочерей твоих, а остальное твое огнем будет пожрано;
26 и снимут с тебя одежды твои, возьмут наряды твои.
27 И положу конец распутству твоему и блужению твоему, принесенному из земли Египетской, и не будешь обращать к ним глаз твоих, и о Египте уже не вспомнишь.
28 Ибо так говорит Господь Бог: вот, Я предаю тебя в руки тех, которых ты возненавидела, в руки тех, от которых отвратилась душа твоя.
29 И поступят с тобою жестоко, и возьмут у тебя все, нажитое трудами, и оставят тебя нагою и непокрытою, и открыта будет срамная нагота твоя, и распутство твое, и блудодейство твое.
30 Это будет сделано с тобою за блудодейство твое с народами, которых идолами ты осквернила себя.
31 Ты ходила дорогою сестры твоей; за то и дам в руку тебе чашу ее.
32 Так говорит Господь Бог: ты будешь пить чашу сестры твоей, глубокую и широкую, и подвергнешься посмеянию и позору, по огромной вместительности ее.
33 Опьянения и горести будешь исполнена: чаша ужаса и опустошения -- чаша сестры твоей, Самарии!
34 И выпьешь ее, и осушишь, и черепки ее оближешь, и груди твои истерзаешь: ибо Я сказал это, говорит Господь Бог.
35 Посему так говорит Господь Бог: так как ты забыла Меня и отвратилась от Меня, то и терпи за беззаконие твое и за блудодейство твое.
36. И сказал мне Господь: сын человеческий! хочешь ли судить Оголу и Оголиву? выскажи им мерзости их;
37 ибо они прелюбодействовали, и кровь на руках их, и с идолами своими прелюбодействовали, и сыновей своих, которых родили Мне, через огонь проводили в пищу им.
38 Еще вот что они делали Мне: оскверняли святилище Мое в тот же день, и нарушали субботы Мои;
39 потому что, когда они заколали детей своих для идолов своих, в тот же день приходили в святилище Мое, чтобы осквернять его: вот как поступали они в доме Моем!
40 Кроме сего посылали за людьми, приходившими издалека; к ним отправляли послов, и вот, они приходили, и ты для них умывалась, сурьмила глаза твои и украшалась нарядами,
41 и садились на великолепное ложе, перед которым приготовляем был стол и на котором предлагала ты благовонные курения Мои и елей Мой.
42 И раздавался голос народа, ликовавшего у нее, и к людям из толпы народной вводимы были пьяницы из пустыни; и они возлагали на руки их запястья и на головы их красивые венки.
43 Тогда сказал Я об одряхлевшей в прелюбодействе: теперь кончатся блудодеяния ее вместе с нею.
44 Но приходили к ней, как приходят к жене блуднице, так приходили к Оголе и Оголиве, к распутным женам.
45 Но мужи праведные будут судить их; они будут судить их судом прелюбодейц и судом проливающих кровь, потому что они прелюбодейки, и у них кровь на руках.
46 Ибо так сказал Господь Бог: созвать на них собрание и предать их озлоблению и грабежу.
47 И собрание побьет их камнями, и изрубит их мечами своими, и убьет сыновей их и дочерей их, и домы их сожжет огнем.
48 Так положу конец распутству на сей земле, и все женщины примут урок, и не будут делать срамных дел подобно вам;
49 и возложат на вас ваше распутство, и понесете наказание за грехи с идолами вашими, и узнаете, что Я Господь Бог.

What kind of language is that???? Just pay attention to the language. Is that is how God speaking ? or inspires (whatever). Astagfirullah...
Shogirt tell me would you read your bible aloud to your sister? or infornt of your mother? or are you ashamed of your bible? i bet you wouldnt read it...
Now read once more tha definiton you provided for the word " pornography" , and then read this passege from your bible again.
i can post more passages from the bible , same filthy language, if some one is still intersted.
Shogird , do you know that they tried to ban your bible in South Africa, which is a christian nation, because the pornogpahy is prohibitted in that country?...

Shogird

12-07-2005, 01:21 AM

Shogird

12-07-2005, 01:29 AM

Some Basic Bible info:
This is tabernacle where God's Spirit dwelt. After Moses took Israel out of Egypt.
http://www.christcenteredmall.com/stores/art/mcnulty/the-tabernacle.jpg

Priests inside the Tabernacle.
http://www.bibleplaces.com/images/Tabernacle_holy_place_with_objects_tb_n030301.jpg

Ark of the Covenant
The only object in the Holy of Holies, the sacred ark contained the two tablets with the Ten Commandments, the rod of Aaron that blossomed and the pot of manna. The ark was covered by the "mercy seat" on which the high priest sprinkled the blood of the goat seven times on the Day of Atonement. The ark represented the footstool of God's throne

http://www.bibleplaces.com/images/Tabernacle_Ark_of_Covenant_with_cherubim_tb_n03030 1.jpg

I hope now you understand why God was so serious. What whould you tell your child if he continously disobeys you and plays around High Voltage (1000 V) electric switch box?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a6/Shock_sign.jpg/200px-Shock_sign.jpg
More Info:
http://www.bible-history.com/art/tabrncl.htm
http://www.domini.org/tabern/tabhome.htm
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/tabwild.htm

lost

12-07-2005, 01:45 AM

Shogird

12-07-2005, 01:52 AM

Later David prepared materials to build temple for God's tabernacle but God did not allow him to do that. David's son, King Solomon buil the temple for God's tabernacle.

http://www.templemount.org/solomon_s_cherubim.jpg

http://www.templemount.org/solomon.html

This is the temple that Herod build for 40 years. Jesus saw this temple and attended this temple in his time.
http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLE00000000.jpg
http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/

It is believed that Al Aqsa Mosque is in the place of former Jewish temple.

http://www.templemount.org/aerial.jpg

JAVA

12-07-2005, 07:39 PM

Java, I am not shy at all of my Bible. I am proud of it, because it speaks the truth even if its hurts. I know other places in Bible where God is very harsh with His people when they sin. God is merciful and longsuffering but when Israel disobeyed God regularly and openly worshipped other gods God had to judge them severely. This chapter definitely is not for kindergarten. In order to understand this chapter you need to understand the whole context of the story. Why God is using the strong language? What Israel has done to deserve this judgement? If you're familiar with Bible , you know that God brought Israel from Egypt. God gave Israel new land. God was their king. Presence of God was literally in Israel. Spirit of God dwelt in their tabernacle. Later David built the temple for this tabernacle. There was no nation in the earth where God was in the midts of them. Israel was God's own property and His people. God had a plan for them. God promised Abraham that whole earth will be blessed though him and thorugh his seed. God gave Isaac to Abraham. From Isaac and his sons came nation of Israel. God had a plan to bless the nation through coming Messiah. That was the God's plan.

In many places God symbolically calls nation of Israel as His beloved and His wife. But Israel was unfaithful and rejected her God by worshipping other Gods and disobeying God's commandments. In this type situations God always sends His prophets, in this chapter God is judging Israel through prophet Ezekiel. Strong language is the sign of profound wrath of God and utter corruption of Israel at that time.
Are concerned about body parts? Don't you know that Adam and Eve were naked in the garden of Eden and did not ashamed of that. They wer naked in the presence of God. Will you be ashamed to clean your child's diapers?
God is owner of all including your body parts. Why He has to be ashamed. Shame and guilt came after Adam broke God's law. Here in this chapter God is comparing idolatry to adultery (sexual immorality).
This verse is the meaning of the whole chapter.

Read additional commentary here: http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/henry/H26C023.htm

Very weak my friend, what kind of truth hurts???? Who is talking about the truth here? Or why do you relate me the story which i know probably better then you do. its not that i dont understand the meaning of that chapter...
ALL that i wanted to do is to show you the Filthy Pornograpic Language used by whatever pervert wrote that partly filthy book! im not talkin about how harsh is God! Why are you always trying to change the subject? I said that bible is filthy, you said prove it to me, I did. So whats now? or should i write some more filthy passages form that book? incest, onanism, etc etc...So next time when you fire your typical evangelical crap (do you guys learn that line by heart or something) about bible being a unique book , telling about prophets, kings, etc.. written by kings, prophets, fisherman, etc ect...dont forget to mention that it also tells in a very expicit manner , all kinds of perversions... A unique book INDEED!!
And i ask you again , would you read your bible aloud infront of your sister? mother? or even your younger brother?????? Oh i know what it is...You are probably holier than your god...

Ahmet

12-08-2005, 09:24 AM

Hello Ahmet,
...No one send me here to write these things. I accidentally came accross to some posts in this forum about Jesus Christ which were untrue. So I wrote what I believe is true. Since I started to get a lot of responses and queistions I had to explain the reason behind my statements. So I don't have agenda to convert you Ahmet, don't worry.
If there is a dialogue that is good I am for it.:D
Sorry man but what you're here doing is just pro-christian propoganda!!!

This is not a dialogue betwean your religion and Islam, believe me...

As I asked you in one of my previous messages about your opinion on our Prophet Muhammed (saas) you said that you're not an expert on Him, right???

"What the ???": is my question. We moslems believe in Our Prophet Jesus (a.s) and you??? Why don't you believe in Our Prophet Muhammed (saas)??? Well, you don't have to BUT...
..YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS TO SAY THAT YOU'RE A MAN OF DIALOGUE!

1. Firstly you should learn your own religion properly in order to perform your missionary activities.

2. Then you should learn the religion of those who you intend to convert to your ones.

3. You're writing here about OUR own Prophets like David and Moses... Sorry but if I were you I'd ask those moslem brothers and sisters visiting this Forum about islamic point of view (what's written in Holy Quran)

4. And the last one, please and one more please write something on Dialogue betwean Islam and your religion.

Ahmet

Кумушбиби

12-09-2005, 08:07 PM

Shogird,

Thank you for your reply and detailed explanation.

1) Re: Jesus – “Divine” and also “Son”?

Allow me to reiterate your understanding of a “Divine Son”. Basically, what you’re saying is that “the son of a horse is a horse, the son of a man is a man, and therefore the Son of God is God”. You see, Shogird, the problem here is that the horse has a beginning and the son of a horse also has a beginning and so the son is like the father. But if God has no beginning and the Son of God has a beginning, the son cannot be like the father. The son is produced by the “father”. God is not produced and so the Son of God cannot be God. The begotten Son of God cannot be like his father who is not begotten. The Father (God) created the son. How can the son be like the father? How can the Son of God ever be God? Does “Divine Son” really have any meaning?

2) Re: Jesus - a man or a God?

I’m saying that Jesus was a man. You’re saying that he was God and Man (God –Man) at the same time. I’m sorry, but I find it self-contradictory. One minute you agree that God Almighty is eternal, the next you state, “he was God and he died”. He could either be God and not die, or died but was not God. The attributes of God are what make Him to be God, such as being Creator, All-powerful, totally Independent. Man, on the other hand, has attributes that make him what he is, such as being very limited in knowledge, wisdom, etc. How then can Jesus be God and man at the same time? How can you be finite and infinite? How can you die and yet not die at the same time? Is it not like saying that a circle became a square, but still round?

P.S. Shogird, how was the original sin inherited?

Peace.

Iqbol

12-09-2005, 10:30 PM

Some hours ago, I was reading a book " The life of Jesus" by Ernest Renan.
Fervent christian and one of the brightest minds of his time, he was exluded from his chair in College de France, six days after he took it, for sazying this:
"As (life, acts of ) Jesus was so extraordinary, I understood those who, impressioned by his acts, called him God".

Shogird

12-10-2005, 12:06 AM

Shogird,

Thank you for your reply and detailed explanation.

1) Re: Jesus – “Divine” and also “Son”?

........
2) Re: Jesus - a man or a God?

............
P.S. Shogird, how was the original sin inherited?

Peace.
http://www.e-spaces.com/portfolio/2d/ssg/html1/main/images/picture5.jpg

Kumushbibi, this beatiful story is for you to read. Enjoy.

King Thrushbeard

A king had a daughter who was beautiful beyond all measure,
but so proud and haughty withal that no suitor was good
enough for her. She sent away one after the other, and
ridiculed them as well.

Once the king made a great feast and invited thereto, from far
and near, all the young men likely to marry. They were all
marshalled in a row according to their rank and standing. First
came the kings, then the grand-dukes, then the princes, the
earls, the barons, and the gentry. Then the king's daughter was
led through the ranks, but to each one she had some objection
to make. One was too fat, the wine-barrel, she said. Another
was too tall, long and thin has little in. The third was too
short, short and thick is never quick. The fourth was too
pale, as pale as death. The fifth too red, a fighting cock.
The sixth was not straight enough, a green log dried behind
the stove.

So she had something to say against each one, but she made
herself especially merry over a good king who stood quite
high up in the row, and whose chin had grown a little crooked.
Look, she cried and laughed, he has a chin like a thrush's
beak. And from that time he got the name of king thrushbeard.

But the old king, when he saw that his daugher did nothing
but mock the people, and despised all the suitors who were
gathered there, was very angry, and swore that she should have
for her husband the very first beggar that came to his doors.

Read the rest of the stroy here: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/grimmtmp/041.txt

Peace

Кумушбиби

12-10-2005, 12:35 AM

Nice story. Romantic. But it still doesn't answer my question.

P.S. My intention is not to mock, but to discuss what appear to be logical problems.

JAVA

12-10-2005, 12:22 PM

Shogird are you a teenager?????????

Shogird

12-11-2005, 03:05 AM

Nice story. Romantic. But it still doesn't answer my question.

P.S. My intention is not to mock, but to discuss what appear to be logical problems.

Kumushbibi, thank you for your response. I posted that story about Thrushbeard King to explain the nature of Jesus Christ.

See that King and Beggar were one person although Beggar and King were two extreme opposites.

ДЖИГИТ

12-11-2005, 03:09 AM

www.barnabas.net (http://www.barnabas.net)

One of the Bible books which christians "decided":shock: not to include into New Testament!

Shogird

12-11-2005, 03:16 AM

Shogird,

Thank you for your reply and detailed explanation.

1) Re: Jesus – “Divine” and also “Son”?

2) Re: Jesus - a man or a God?

P.S. Shogird, how was the original sin inherited?

Peace.

JOHN 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

"How can the son be like the father? How can the Son of God ever be God? Does “Divine Son” really have any
meaning?"

Kumushbibi I can understand your confusion. You are saying if God has no beginning and son has beginnig Son cannot be god. Bible tells that Son was eternally pre-existent with Father. Moreover John calls Him as Word of God (Logos), that whole creation created through Him. He was the medium of creation.
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58

What is Logos?
Definition:
Logos-
1. Gr. Philos. reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe and as being
manifested by speech
2. Christian Theol. the eternal thought or word of God, made incarnate in Jesus Christ: John 1

God send His word and Word became human. Bible calls His name as Word of God. Word of God has no beginning and it is prexistent with God. Word of God became a man. Bible calls Him as Son of God. Jesus also calls himself as Son of
Man. These 2 titles are rightly given to him. Jesus says:

"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the
world was. John 17:5

Colosians 1:16-17. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and
invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for
Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist

Why God has to send His Son?

Romans 8: 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in
the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

See how ancient prophets foretold about him:

Isaiah 7: 14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son,
and shall call His name Immanuel (translated: God is with us).
Zecharia 2:10-11
"Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst," says the LORD.
"Many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your
midst. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me to you.

In this verse Jesus says that He came down from heaven
John6:38

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Question 2:
You said Jesus was a man. You are right. He was a man but unusual man. He was man who was born miracoluosly. He was conceived through the Holy Spirit by virgin Mary. Muslims and Christians agree up this point. So there is no need to defend his humanity now. Let's explain why Christians call him Son of God, Lord or God himself. In Bible we see
the divine attributes of God in Jesus. He had power over nature, He forgave sins (only God can forgive sins),
He healed the people, He resurected the dead. He called Himself as son of God.
Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him because Jesus called Himslef "Son of God". He was making Himself equal to God.

"do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I
said, 'I am the Son of God'? John 10:36

Purpose of His coming.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God
was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:8.

Look here What Daniel prophesied hundreds of years before about Jesus Christ.
Daniel 7:13-14.

"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He
came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve
Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not
be destroyed."

ДЖИГИТ

12-11-2005, 03:31 AM

Did Jesus ever claim to be "Mighty God" or "God"?

From Sheikh Ahmed Deedat's work; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:

Let us look at John 10:30 "I (Jesus) and the Father are One." This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context, because beginning at verse John 10:23 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse John 10:28-30, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.

Also let us look at verse John 17:20-22 "That the ALL may be made ONE. Like thou Father art in me, I in thee, that they may be ONE in us. I in them, they in me, that they may be perfect in ONE". In this verse, the same word ONE used, the Greek, HEN is used, not only to describe Jesus and the Father but to describe Jesus, the Father and eleven of the twelve disciples of Jesus. So here if that implies equality, we have a unique case of 13 Gods.

Of the verse in question,"I and the Father are One" in (John 10:30), we also need to take note of the verses following the 30th verse in the text. In those verses, the Jews accuse Jesus falsely of claiming to be God by these words. He however replies, proving their accusation wrong by their own text: "The Jews answered him saying,'For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy, and because that thou being a man, makest thyself a God '" (John 10:33).
Jesus replies to this accusation saying: "Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said ye are gods. If He can call them gods, unto whom the word of God came, say ye of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, "Thou blasphemeth," because I said I am the son of God?'" (John 10:34-36).

Let us look at Acts 2:22 "O you men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you..." Peter in the Book of Acts testifies about Jesus. Jesus thus even to his disciples, as to early Christians, not poisoned by Pauline doctrine, was a man, not a God.

From www.jewsforjudaism.org (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/):

Question: In John 10:30 Jesus says, "I and the Father are one [hen]." Doesn't this show that they are one in essence?

This statement does not suggest either a dual or triune deity. What John's Jesus meant by the word hen ("one") becomes clear from his prayer concerning the apostles: "That they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen]" (John 17:22), which means that they should be united in agreement with one another as he (Jesus) is always united in agreement with God, as stated: "I [Jesus] always do the things that are pleasing to Him [God]" (John 8:29).
There is thus no implication that Jesus and God, or the twelve apostles are to be considered as of one essence.

Please visit Does calling Jesus "Son of God" prove that he is GOD? (http://www.answering-christianity.com/son_of_god.htm)

Shogird

12-11-2005, 03:55 AM

ДЖИГИТ

12-11-2005, 04:12 AM

Articles with detailed proofs about "Son of God" means "Servant of God":

Below are a list of articles that clearly prove from Hebrew resources that "Son of God" also means "Servant of God".

Article #1:
The following article was taken from: http://www.chick.com/information/bibleversions/articles/saviororservant.asp (http://www.chick.com/information/bibleversions/articles/saviororservant.asp)

Is Jesus "God's Son" or "God's Servant?"

Do you see a difference between these two Bible versions?

King James Version

Acts 3:25 - Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Acts 3:26 - Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

New King James Version

Acts 3:25 - You are the sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Acts 3:26 - To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning every one of you away from his iniquities.

In the KJV, we find that Jesus is God's Son. In the NKJV, we find that He is God's servant. These are clearly not the same! The Greek word found in the text here is "pais". It can be used in Greek for either "son" or "servant." So which one is correct here?
The solution is simple: look at the context in which it is used. In English, we have many words that can have more than one meaning. If a translator, going from English to another language, came across the word "bear," he would have a choice of meanings. But it wouldn't take rocket science to figure out which one to use.

If the passage described a man with a heavy burden, the translator would understand that the man is going to "bear," or "carry" the burden. If, on the other hand, the passage described a hairy beast climbing a tree, the translator would understand the correct meaning here applies to a forest-dwelling animal that will eat nearly anything it finds. It's not really very hard.

Now look at the Bible passage above. What is being discussed?

"children of the prophets"
"covenant which God made with our fathers"
"in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."It's clear, isn't it? The passage is talking about "children," and "fathers" and "seed." The word "pais" means "son." But the New King James translators chose "servant." Why? They were not alone. The New World Translation, created by the Jehovah's Witnesses who deny the deity of Jesus, translated this word "servant" also. So do the NIV, ASV, NASB and other modern Bible translations.

Could it be that these modern translators disagree that "pais" can be translated "son?" No, the NKJV committee translates this very word as "boy," "child" or "son" in Matthew 2:16; 17:18; 21:15; Luke 2:43; 9:42; and John 4:51. Yet they refused to translate the word as "son" in this powerful sermon where Peter presents Jesus as Messiah and Son of God.
One has to ask, why were these translators so determined to deny the deity of Jesus in this passage? Is this a Bible you can trust with your eternal destiny?

ДЖИГИТ

12-11-2005, 04:16 AM

Article #2:
From http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.3.15.html (http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.3.15.html):

1.2.3.15 Jesus is God's servant

All of mankind are the servants of God. If a man were to own another man then that man would be his servant. Obviously this servant would be held in a lower regard than this man's own children (or himself). We do not usually find people telling their sons (or themselves): "come here my servant," or "Go over there my servant." Let us compare this with what God has to say about Jesus (pbuh):

Matthew 12:18: "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen."
Acts 3:13(RSV): "The God of Abraham, and of Isaac,.... hath glorified his servant Jesus."
Acts 4:27(RSV): "For of a truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hast anointed...." The Actual Greek word used is "pias" or "paida" which mean; "servant, child, son, manservant." Some translations of the Bible, such as the popular King James Version, have translated this word as "Son" when it is attributed to Jesus (pbuh) and "servant" for most everyone else, while more recent translations of the Bible such as the Revised Standard Version (RSV) now honestly translate it as "servant." As we shall see in later chapters, the RSV was compiled by thirty two Biblical scholars of the highest eminence, backed by 50 cooperating Christian denominations from the "most" ancient Biblical manuscripts available to them today. Chances are that no matter what your church or denomination you are able to name, that church took part in the correction of the King James Version of the Bible which resulted in the RSV.

The exact same word "pias" is attributed to Jacob(Israel) in Luke 1:54 and translated as "servant":

"He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;."
It is also applied to King David in Luke 1:69, and once again, it is translated as "servant":
"....the house of his servant David;" (also see Acts 4:25).
However, when it is applied to Jesus (e.g. Acts 3:13, Acts 4:27), NOW it is translated as "Son." (notice that it is not only translated as "son" but as "Son".) Why the double standard? Why the dishonest translation techniques?
"And verily, among them is a party who twist their tongues with the Scripture that you might think that it is from the Scripture but it is not from the Scripture; and they say, 'It is from Allah' but it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie against Allah while [well] they know it!"

The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):78
"The Messiah will never scorn to be a servant of Allah, nor will the favored angels. Whosoever scorns His service and is proud, all such will He assemble unto Him; Then as for those who believed and did good works, unto them will he pay their wages in full and shall increase them from His bounty. [But] as for those who were scornful and proud, He shall punish hem with a painful torment, nor will they find for themselves other than Allah any ally or champion"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Nissa(4):172-174

ДЖИГИТ

12-11-2005, 04:28 AM

Article #3:

The following excerpt was taken from: http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_son.htm (http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_son.htm)

"Mr. Tom Harpur says in the preface to his book:
"The most significant development since 1986 in this regard has been the discovery of the title "Son of God" in one of the Qumran papyri (Dead Sea Scrolls) used in relation to a person other than Jesus.....this simply reinforces the argument made there that to be called the Son of God in a Jewish setting in the first century is not by any means the same as being identical with God Himself."For Christ's Sake, pp. xii."

The article goes into great depth in refuting the polytheist trinity paganism. I recommend reading it.

Article #3:

The following excerpt was taken from: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/god.html (http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/god.html)
....And there is only one Jehovah God, who qualifies! In fact, the whole idea of Christ being just a man or lesser god, makes the Christian belief ridiculous.

Isaiah 43:10-11

"Ye are My witnesses, saith the Lord, and My servant whom I have Chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I AM He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.
I, even I, AM the Lord; and beside Me, There is No Saviour."That word translated Lord there is in the Hebrew [yehovah] Jehovah. There is no god before who is the Saviour, and no god after. Jehovah God is the only possible Saviour. No man, nor superman, could accomplish the task of being burdened with all our sins, judged for them, and be resurrected without them. Even a non-Christians can understand the bankruptcy of any other idea. For when we actually stop to think about it seriously, it's quite ludicrous! Unless this man was the very revelation of God (the only one able to become sin for us, and withstand the judgment thereof), we have no Saviour! And that is exactly what God said in Isaiah chapter 43 verse 11. Who could accomplish such a feat to be a saviour? The answer in all reasonableness is, no one but Jehovah God is the Saviour."

Again, the article goes into great depth in refuting the polytheist trinity paganism. I recommend reading it.

ДЖИГИТ

12-11-2005, 04:31 AM

4- Jesus "feared" GOD in the Old Testament: Another proof that he is a Servant:

Let us look at the following verses from the Bible:

1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;
(From the NIV Bible, Isaiah 11:1-3)

In regards to the Spirit of GOD Almighty resting on Jesus, please visit: The Spirit of GOD Almighty came upon others before and after Jesus in the Bible. (http://www.answering-christianity.com/spirit.htm)

Anyway, a simple question here must be asked: How can Jesus be the Creator of the Universe if he feared GOD Almighty? Trinitarians often say "Jesus is the Son of God". And when one tries to get further elaboration from them about what exactly "Son of God" means, they end up telling him that Jesus is the Creator of the Universe.
Almost every single trinitarian Christian that I debated believes that Jesus is the Creator of the Universe.

Let us look at what Jesus said about himself and about GOD Almighty:
"I do nothing of myself (From the NIV Bible, John 8:28)"
"My Father (GOD) is greater than I (From the NIV Bible, John 14:28)"
"Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit (From the NIV Bible, Luke 23:46)"
"And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 24:36)"
Do these quotes suggest at all that Jesus is in the same level as the Creator of the Universe?

ДЖИГИТ

12-11-2005, 04:32 AM

5- Conclusion:
As we've seen above, in Hebrew, "Son of God" can also be translated as "Servant of God", which literally means "Abdallah" in Arabic. Abd = Servant, and allah = Allah, or the Supreme GOD Almighty that is above all gods. So, Jesus being called "Son of God" does not mean anything about him being part of GOD or GOD Almighty Himself. It simply means "Servant of God" since Jesus existed among Jews and preached the Gospel to them.
Allah Almighty said: "And they say: "(God) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour. (The Noble Quran, 21:26)"
Jesus himself in his own quotes in the New Testament refuted trinity as shown above. The Bible in the Old Testament also refuted trinity by saying that Jesus will have the spirit of fearing GOD Almighty in him.

How can GOD Almighty fear Himself? And why would the Creator of the Universe have any fear in Him?

Jesus clearly was the Servant of GOD Almighty as Islam claims. Jesus was the Jews' Messiah and Leader, and Allah Almighty's Messenger to them. But he was not part of GOD Almighty, nor His biological son.

al-quds muslim

12-11-2005, 05:22 AM

ДЖИГИТ

12-11-2005, 05:56 AM

AS-ASALAMU ALAIKUM,

DEAR DJIGIT,

THANK U VERY MUCH, BUT, IF THAT WAS TOO CLEAR THAT JESUS (AS), WAS THE SERVANT OF ALLAH , NOT HIS SON, NOR APART OF HIM, AND THEY KNOW THERE BOOKS WELL, WHY THIS QUEST TOOK ALOT OF DIALOGUE IN THERE MINDS AS THAT , TILL NOW THEY SEE THAT(REALLY JESUS IS APART OF THE GOD, AND HIS SON),

THANK U VERY MUCH

MAY YOU PLEASE CLARIFY THIS QUEST???

Dear brother,

The main culprit of this issue - why it takes so long to know the truth, is that Christians reading some verse from the Bible make false thought development, their own personal thought development. One who has no basic knowledge of what monotheism is can easily buy into those false dogmas just like Shogird did. Here's an example: Christians when asked where did they take divinity to Jesus (why they call him God) quote this verse: " My Father and I One". But let's ask -One WHAT? Christians wrongly develope the thought that God and Jesus One. But it is a grave mistake of their after thought development. The word "One" actually means that Jesus (pbuh) teaches same as God teaches, because Jesus was sent and taught what God taught him or in other words God and Jesus teach One thing, One religion, One idea. It is not like God and Jesus are One physically, but One ideologically!!!

Another issue is the title of "son". As we have read from our previous posts, the title "son" actually means "servant" or in some cases "peacemakers" - like in Matthew, 5:9 : Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God".
There were many other people called son of God, of course they were called "sons" not LITERALLY, but Christians take the title son to Jesus LITERALLY! Why then they don't take it literally to others??? I think now you have an idea what's going on.

As we see, their grave mistake , as any person with common sense can support this, is wrong interpretation of verses in Bible and their wrong thought development which in turn requires long debate and thorough explanation that takes time. Still if God doesn't lead them the right way, they will oppose the truth because their dignity and credo may have been hurt, this can be the argument for their cintinuous denial of truth!

Hope you get some idea of our posts!

Кумушбиби

12-12-2005, 08:17 AM

Kumushbibi, thank you for your response. I posted that story about Thrushbeard King to explain the nature of Jesus Christ.

See that King and Beggar were one person although Beggar and King were two extreme opposites.
Is this an attempt to explain the Trinity as a logical concept? If so, then this analogy can be easily dismissed.

Imagine a theatrical play. Now, imagine an actor who changes costumes to play three different roles - beggar, hussar and king. At first, he pretends to be a beggar, soon after he changes his costume and becomes a hussar and, then, a king. Please note that each role is played separately (and not simultaneously). In case of the Trinity, however, it is said that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God, so called, simultaneous unity. On the other hand, your analogy (king/beggar) lacks simultaneous unity; furthermore, it demonstrates separateness of the three Gods.

Shogird, I am afraid, that the other analogies (egg, triangle, water etc.) can be similarly dismissed because God in three persons, each of which is God (i.e. 1+1+1=1) is a logical and practical impossibility.

Shogird

12-12-2005, 01:38 PM

Is this an attempt to explain the Trinity as a logical concept? If so, then this analogy can be easily dismissed.

Imagine a theatrical play. Now, imagine an actor who changes costumes to play three different roles - beggar, hussar and king. At first, he pretends to be a beggar, soon after he changes his costume and becomes a hussar and, then, a king. Please note that each role is played separately (and not simultaneously). In case of the Trinity, however, it is said that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God, so called, simultaneous unity. On the other hand, your analogy (king/beggar) lacks simultaneous unity; furthermore, it demonstrates separateness of the three Gods.

Shogird, I am afraid, that the other analogies (egg, triangle, water etc.) can be similarly dismissed because God in three persons, each of which is God (i.e. 1+1+1=1) is a logical and practical impossibility.

Kumushbibi, I perfectly understand your position. You are trying to grasp the nature of triune God (not three gods, but one God in three persons). No one has ever seen God. We know God only through His revelations (His word and His creation). If I ask you about Allah you will give me HIs attributes only written in Quran but nothing else. You have never seen Him and you have no idea what to think about Him. Somethings we take by faith even though we don't understand them fully. I can enjoy my coffee and have no idea about molecular structure of coffee been and sugar but it does not stop me from enjoying my hot Colombian Coffee. :D

Throughout the Bible all the prophets received the word of GOd and saw the glory of God. They did not see the actual God but they see the medium by which God was revealing Himself to them. Take Moses for instances, God got Moses' attention by talking to him through burning bush. Book of Hebrews tells this: For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29

Even Muahammad according your tradition received the message through angel. He did not see the actual God and never claimed that.

But contrary Jesus claimed that He knew God and came down from God. Mt 11:27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

The concept of God in flesh was incomprhensible to Jewish monotheistic mindset (same with Islam). BIble calls this mystery revealed at the end of the ages.

JAVA

12-12-2005, 07:18 PM

The concept of God in flesh was incomprhensible to Jewish monotheistic mindset (same with Islam). BIble calls this mystery revealed at the end of the ages.
What a total bulls##t , excuse my french...Man, you gonna be so disapointed , InshALLAH...:lol: :lol:

tarafdor

12-12-2005, 09:35 PM

1-No one has ever seen God. We know God only through His revelations (His word and His creation).
But contrary 2-Jesus claimed that He knew God and came down from God.

Kak vsegda pu**a qorishib qolgan vaziyatlar...arava na siljiydi, na bir ishga yaraydi...agarda 3 ta narsa bir narsa bulsa yani 3 in 1 nimaga 1-chi jumla 2-chi jumlaga zid kelayapti...agarda Jesus God'ni bir parchasi bo'lsa unda uni 2005 yil oldin hamma kurgan....agarda 1-chu jumlaga quloq soladigan bulsak..demak u payt Jesus God emasdi(authibillahi)...ammo ulimidan keyin promotion sifatida God'ni bir parchasi edi...qisqasi bu dinda oddiy bir Xudo;ni tushunish shunchalik qiyinki..boshqa masalalarga utmasa ham buladi...lekin biz Shogirdning va boshqa murtadlarning hamma savollariga javob bergandik..alhamdulliloh. :lol:

Shogird

12-15-2005, 12:45 AM

ni tushunish shunchalik qiyinki Borliqni Yaratuvchi Buyuk Zotning Tabiatini oddiy ongingiz bilan tushuna olasizmi?

Jesus
as the
Son of God

by Luther Engelbrecht
Ernest Hahn

Muslims believe that God is one, that there are no gods except the God. They may contend that even though Christians claim to be monotheists, they actually believe in more than one God. Since Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they therefore err like other people of ancient or modern times who have believed in a plurality of gods or the sons and daughters of God.
So often Muslim-Christian religious discussion breaks on the topic of Jesus' Sonship. The Christian affirms that Jesus is the Son of God; the Muslim denies that Jesus is the Son of God. Both simply agree to disagree, each convinced that he is right and the other is wrong, as they go their separate ways.
But is there another alternative? In suggesting that there is, the following questions are proposed: Has the Christian truly understood what Jesus' Sonship means to the Muslim and why the Muslim rejects it? Has the Muslim truly understood what Jesus Sonship means to the Christian and why the Christian affirms it? On this topic, which for centuries has been notorious for generating more heat than light, could both agree to explain their relative positions more fully and to listen to one another more intently and courteously?
The intention of this essay is to help both Muslims and Christians to penetrate a little deeper into the Biblical concept of Jesus as the Son of God and the significance of this idea for Christians. At the same time, it is hoped that this essay, as it unfolds, demonstrates at least some sensitivity towards a truly Muslim position on this vital topic. Where it needs correction or amplification, gladly let Muslim friends provide it.

Biblical Meaning of "Son"
To understand the Biblical meaning of Jesus as "the Son of God", first we must examine the Biblical use of the word "son". In the Bible, "son" is a term expressing an intimate relationship with someone or something; basically, it indicates origin, but it is also used to express close association or identification with persons or things. Even when indicating origin, this term does not limit oneself to one's father and mother. One may be called the "son" of the following: his father and mother, his family, his tribe, his people, his place of birth (city or country), and the time or circumstance of his birth. The if "father-son" terminology is also used in connection with kings and their vassals or subjects, masters and servants, teachers and disciples, and almost any situation in which someone is subordinate to or dependent on someone else. The basic requirement of the "son" is to honour and obey his "father", but he should also love him and emulate him.
The term "son" is used in many other ways in the Bible, some of which are connected with origin but others of which mainly express some sort of association with or resemblance to persons or things. A large, somehow homogeneous group may be called "sons" (occupational and ethnic groups especially). Sometimes characteristics or qualities themselves are personified and regarded as having "sons" - those who possess that same characteristic or quality. Still also other uses of the term "son" in the Bible reflect the versatile and imaginative use of this term especially in the Hebrew language.
A complete list of the various uses of the term "son" in the Bible would be too long for this essay. A few of its more idiomatic uses are listed below, with their literal meanings and the translations of the Holy Bible, New International Version (or The New English Bible or Holy Bible, Revised Standard Version).
Old Testament
Reference: Expression (as literally in the original text)
-- Meaning (as found in the translation)

Genesis 5:32: "son of five hundred years"
-- "five hundred years old"

Genesis 15:3: "a son of my house"
-- "a servant in my household"

Deuteronomy 25:2: "a son of stripes"
-- "deserves to be beaten"

Judges 19:22: "sons of Belial"
-- "wicked men"

I Samuel 20:31: "a son of death"
-- "he must die"

I Kings 20:35: "sons of the prophets"
-- "a company of prophets" (NEB)

II Kings 14:14: "sons of pledging"
-- "hostages"

Job 41:28: "son of a bow"
-- "arrow" (NEB)

Isaiah 60: 10: "sons of a foreign land"
-- "foreigners"

Lamentations 3:13: "sons of a quiver"
-- "arrows from his quivers"

Joel 3:6: "sons of the Grecians"
-- "the Greeks"

Zechariah 4:14: "sons of oil"
-- "anointed"

New Testament
Matthew 9:15: "sons of the bridegroom"
-- "the guests of the bridegroom"

Matthew 12:27: "your sons"
-- "your people"

Luke 10:6: "a son of peace"
-- "a man of peace"

Luke 16:8: "the sons of this age"
-- "the people of this world";
"the sons of lights"
-- "the people of the light"

John 17:12: "the son of destruction"
-- "the one doomed to destruction"

Acts 13:26: "sons of the family of Abraham"
-- "you who come of the stock of Abraham" (NEB)

Galatians 3:7: "those who believe are children of Abraham"

Ephesians 2:2: "the sons of disobedience"
-- "those who are disobedient"

The above are only a few of the many uses of the term "son(s)" in the Holy Bible. The most common uses, which are usually translated literally, have been omitted. However, one such group might be illustrated here: personal, yet non-physical, Father-son" relationships:
Father Son(s)

I Samuel 3:6 Eli Samuel

I Samuel 24:16 Saul David

I Samuel 25:8 Nabal David

Proverbs 1:8, etc. Solomon the reader

II Kings 2: 12 Elijah Elisha

II Kings 8:9 Elisha King Ben-Hadad

II Kings 5:13 Naaman his servants

Judges 18:19 the priest the people

Genesis 4:20f. first musician all musicians, etc

Matthew 9:2 Jesus the paralytic

I Timothy 1:2, etc. Paul Timothy

Titus 1:4 Paul Titus

Philemon 10 Paul Philemon

I Peter 5: 13 Peter Mark

Other languages also use the term "son" in a variety of ways. Thus, in the Arabic language of the Qur'an "son" need not mean only a direct male issue or descendant. A familiar example is ibnu's sabil ("son of the road"), which means "a traveller". Another example with which many are familiar is "the son of Satan" a vivid descriptive for any mischief-maker (cf. also Acts 13:10). Obviously Satan does not have a wife in order to have a son! The name implies that the mischief maker is like Satan, an embodiment of Satan, a "Satan with us". Worthy of remembrance is also the Arabic term ummu'l kitab (literally "the mother of the book") the heavenly Scripture from which all Scripture with us on earth is derived, as if each Scripture were her child.
In the light of the above, let us turn to well known verses of the Qur'an: "He is Allah, the One.... He begetteth not nor was begotten...." (Pickthall, The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, surah 112:1-4). This surah clearly states that God has no son and that no son can be God. Why? "How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort?..." (surah 6:102). As these and other verses suggest, even to imagine that God would have a wife and sexual intercourse with her would be absolute folly. But do these Quranic verses actually address the Biblical meaning of Jesus' Sonship? Does the Bible affirm that God has a wife and through procreation a son, whose name is Jesus? Our response to these questions will become more intelligible after we consider in greater depth the Biblical meaning of "son of God".

Continued here...... (http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/son.html)

Shogird

12-15-2005, 12:53 AM

Summary:
(Read the whole article here (http://answering-islam.org.uk/Hahn/son.html))

Finally, let us briefly summarize the Biblical meaning of Jesus as the Son of God, bearing in mind that 1. "the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deuteronomy 6:4) and 2. the Holy Injil itself must be read to grasp the fuller meaning of Jesus' Sonship through His servanthood:

1. The unique Son of God is of the Father eternally; by Him God created and sustains the universe. As God's self-expression He is truly God.

2. Because God loved us, the unique Son of God entered time and space, was born of the Virgin Mary and was called Jesus the Messiah. As God's self-expression on earth in the form of man He is also truly human.

3. The Son shares the attributes of the Father; He is like Him in powerful works and loving self-giving.

4. The Son has been sent by/from the Father as His representative to carry out His work of revelation and salvation.

5. The Son is the Father's personal message, God expressing Himself and His love in a way that can be seen and heard and comprehended by humanity.

6. The Son serves the Father perfectly; the Father is also responsive to the will of the Son.

7. The Father and the Son are One in a unique relationship of complete mutuality between Master and Servant, sending One and sent One, revealed One and revealing One.

8. Those who believe in the unique Servant/Son sent by God, God's personal Good News" ("Evangel" or "Injil"), and who follow Him, can become His "brothers and "sisters"; they can become adopted, obedient children of God.

tarafdor

12-15-2005, 01:23 AM

Borliqni Yaratuvchi Buyuk Zotning Tabiatini oddiy ongingiz bilan tushuna olasizmi? Jesus as the Son of God

Nimaga kuplik qushimchasi ishlatishdan bosh tortasiz...Zotning emas, Zotlarning bulishi kerak aslida...yani Xudoyim emas, Xudolarim manga yordam beringlar bulishi kerak...:lol:
Aslida Hinduizm bilan nasroniylik urtasida bitta farq bor..u ham bulsa hindlar hayvonlarga, masihiylar esa odam shakliga ibodat qilishadi...a tak qolgani hammasi bir gur...

Shogird san gapirayotgan usha zotning hususiyatlari Musalmon uchun yangilik emas...Olloh taolo ham borliqni, koinotni yaratgan....san bir narsaga tushunmayapsan uzing...yani borliqni yaratgan Zotni hamma tan oladi ongi bilan, alhamdullilah.....buni Budistlar ham, juvutlar ham tan oladi..yani bu narsada rohat bul..ammo masala Zotning nechtaligida...buni uzing onging bilan tushuna olmayapsanku...:lol:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarafdor
ni tushunish shunchalik qiyinki

aslida meni emas...chalkash berilgan va uzing ham tushuna olmaydigan rivoyatlarni tushunish qiyin...qiyin bulmaganda qachanlar hamma savollarga javob bergan bularding...

Shogird

12-17-2005, 12:53 AM

Nimaga kuplik qushimchasi ishlatishdan bosh tortasiz...Zotning emas, Zotlarning bulishi kerak aslida...yani Xudoyim emas, Xudolarim manga yordam beringlar bulishi kerak... Ko'plik qo'shimchasi kerak bo'lsa mana bu yerga nazar tashlang:
Sura 25:32: "We may establish thy heart by it."
Sura 2: 36. " And when WE said `O Adam, dwell thou and thy wife in the garden, and eat therefrom plentifully where ever you will, but approach not this tree, least you be of the wrongdoers."
SUra 2: 39. " We said. `Go forth hence, all of you. And if there comes to you guidance from ME then whoso shall follow MY guidance, on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve.'"
"We" ko'plik manosini bildiradimi?

Aslida Hinduizm bilan nasroniylik urtasida bitta farq bor..u ham bulsa hindlar hayvonlarga, masihiylar esa odam shakliga ibodat qilishadi...a tak qolgani hammasi bir gur...

No'toghri tushunibsiz og'ayni. Hindlar va Musulmonlardan katta farqimiz bor. Hindlar hayvonga sighinishadi. Sizlar Hudo yuborgan Masihni rad etib, uning orniga bir odamning orqasidan ergashasizlar. Injil bo'yicha Masihning o'rniga kimda-kim davogarlik qilsa u Dajjol yoki Dajol ruhidandir. Biz Yaratuvchi Yagona Hudovandga sighinamiz va U yuborgan Iso Masihni Najotkorimiz va Shohimiz deb bilamiz. Muqaddas Kitob aniq aytadi, Hudo bir va Inson va Hudo orasidagi vositachi ham bir, Masihdir.

buni uzing onging bilan tushuna olmayapsanku...:lol:

Meni tushunganman va doim chuqurroq tushunish yo'lidaman. Hudoning tabiati Ruhhiydir, bu degani siz o'zingizdagi jismoniy miyangiz bilan Ruhiy olamni tushunishingiz cheklangandir. Ruhiyatni Ruh bilan tushuniladi. Tarihdagi buyuk Payghambarlar, Shohlar, Ruhoniylar (Ibrohim, Dovud, Ishaiaa, Yahyo va .....)Hudo Ruhidan tasirlanib Taolo bilan muloqatda bo'lishgan.

hamma savollarga javob bergan bularding...
Men aslida forumlarda hat yozadiganlardanmasman. Boshqa ishlarim bilan ham bandman. Agar javobim kerak bo'lsa list qilib berinig, asta sekin javob beraveraman.

tarafdor

12-17-2005, 04:55 AM

Ko'plik qo'shimchasi kerak bo'lsa mana bu yerga nazar tashlang:
Sura 25:32: "We may establish thy heart by it."
Sura 2: 36. " And when WE said `O Adam, dwell thou and thy wife in the garden, and eat therefrom plentifully where ever you will, but approach not this tree, least you be of the wrongdoers."
SUra 2: 39. " We said. `Go forth hence, all of you. And if there comes to you guidance from ME then whoso shall follow MY guidance, on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve.'"
"We" ko'plik manosini bildiradimi?

Don't limit your knowledge into the limited circle..just read other topics such as this one http://www.forum.uz/showthread.php?t=26472..it's (http://www.forum.uz/showthread.php?t=26472..it's) the recent one and there you will find why there's a pronoun WE have bee used....Let's come again to the question that I have asked you...could you find any ayat in Quran where it says God has a partner/son/wife/father or something else..authibillahi...Islam is a monotheistic religion...But you have trinity so why you never say- our Gods/Xudolarimiz/Zotlarimiz...because it's 3 so from grammatical point of view thee should be PLURALITY...got it? Savoldan qochmay javob berishga urgan..keyin savol bulsa doim tayyormiz:lol:

No'toghri tushunibsiz og'ayni. Hindlar va Musulmonlardan katta farqimiz bor. Hindlar hayvonga sighinishadi. Sizlar Hudo yuborgan Masihni rad etib, uning orniga bir odamning orqasidan ergashasizlar. Injil bo'yicha Masihning o'rniga kimda-kim davogarlik qilsa u Dajjol yoki Dajol ruhidandir. Biz Yaratuvchi Yagona Hudovandga sighinamiz va U yuborgan Iso Masihni Najotkorimiz va Shohimiz deb bilamiz. Muqaddas Kitob aniq aytadi, Hudo bir va Inson va Hudo orasidagi vositachi ham bir, Masihdir.

Ok...sanga 24 soat vaqt agarda manga Qurondan bitta oyat bulsa ham kursatsang qayerda Muhammad (saw) bu dinning asoschisi va manga ergashing degani haqida, yoki shunga uhshash tarzda..insholloh Dining haq ekanligini va aytayotgan suzlarning dalillarga asoslangan holda yozilganligiga Iymon keltiraman....butun dinlar Islomdan tashqari uzining asoschisi nomiga quyilgandur...Nimaga Muhammad (saw) bu dinga asos solgan taqdirda hamma vaqt Ollohni eslash va unga siginish haqida davat etayapti....u sizlar emasmi odamga ibodat qilayapsiz...u sizlar emasmi muqaddas ruh bilan shaytonning waswasining farqiga bormayapsiz...u siz emasmi Haq Zot deb bilgan Ilohning 1500 ortiq kitobidan qaysi biri tugri ekani bilmaysiz...Haq hamma vaqt Bittadur...2 ta bulsa unda Bittasi katta bittasi mayda, yoki egri tugri buladi...

Uzing uylab kurda...bitta katta korxonaga uz pulingdan asos solib...korxona yaxshi ishga tushib ketganda....uni boshqasiga shundaygina topshirib quyasan...bulishi mumkin emas...agarda Muhammad (saw) bu dinga asos solganda...unda Iso as'ni uziga raqib sifatida bilib sizlar qanday muborak payg'ambarimizni har kuni balchiqqa botirib olayotgan bulsangiz u ham shunday qilgan bulardi..toki hamma unga ibodat qilsin deb...nimaga Iso as haqida shunday shirin va chiroyli jumlalar keladi Quronda...nimaga musulmonlar Iso as'ni shunchalik sevishadi,shunga javob bera olasanmi?...think moron:D ...man mumkin Islom'ni hech ham kurmaganligim uchun musulmonlikdan shubha qilishim mumkin edi..lekin Quronning uzidan oldin bulib utgan voqealarni va keyin texnologiya yordamida qulga kiritilgan yutuqlarni 14 asr oldin yozishilishi hamma vaqt Olloh'ning majvud ekanligini suylab turadi..
Meni tushunganman va doim chuqurroq tushunish yo'lidaman. Hudoning tabiati Ruhhiydir, bu degani siz o'zingizdagi jismoniy miyangiz bilan Ruhiy olamni tushunishingiz cheklangandir. Ruhiyatni Ruh bilan tushuniladi. Tarihdagi buyuk Payghambarlar, Shohlar, Ruhoniylar (Ibrohim, Dovud, Ishaiaa, Yahyo va .....)Hudo Ruhidan tasirlanib Taolo bilan muloqatda bo'lishgan.
Qiziq...usha va'dan keyin nima kelar ekan..:)

Shogird

12-22-2005, 12:44 AM

Ok...sanga 24 soat vaqt

Bushdan organdingizmi 24 soat kapitulyaziaya qildirishga.LOL :D

Anyway. I am actually reserching about the problem of Evil and holocaust. You got me interested in the subject. So sorry it is taking me longer to answer your question. Hudo Holasa javob beramiz.

Shogird

12-22-2005, 12:51 AM

Here is one very nice source of information. Click on chapter numbers to see videoclips and click on text links on the right to read answers to questions.

http://www.mars-hill.org/media/the_hope_main/hope_logo3.jpg

http://www.mars-hill.org/media/the_hope_main/images/amos_scribe.jpg

http://www.thehopevideo.com/

http://www.thehopevideo.com/thehope-full-length.html

JOUBERAR

07-10-2008, 10:09 AM

Kumushbibi, I see that you are very intelligent lady. It is good to see progressive & open-minded Uzbek people. I am kind of uncomfortable to say something to you. I am not claiming to be a "master know it all". I am just sharing what God had done in my life. I am still "shogird" who is learning. Eternity is not enough to learn about God. Please excuse my broken English.

Let me try to answer your question. You have found the expression "Divine Sonship" as incomprehensible. I can understand your confusion but you rightly said that God has no beginning nor ending.

Let’s see what Bible tells us about this.

GOD
TRUE: God has no beginning nor ending.

God is all knowing (Proverbs 5:21), He is everywhere at once (Psalm 139:7; Jeremy 23:23), He is all powerful (Genesis 17:1 etc.), He is unchanging (Psalm 102:26, 27),He is Only Wise (Romans 16:27); He is Unsearchable (Job 11:7, Psalm 145:3; Romans 11:38 etc.), He is Invisible (Job 23:8,9; John 1:18 etc.); He is Incorruptible (Romans 1:23), He is Eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27 etc.); He is Immortal (1 Timothy 1:17 etc.); He is in charge of the Universe and everything (Exodus 6:16). Well space is not enough here to write about all the attributes of God.

Hebrew Scripture calls Him as Elohim (translated as God, Elohim is plural form of Eloah, in Arabic Allah) and Yahweh (Jehowah) translated as Lord

JESUS
TRUE: Man Jesus of Nazareth was conceived of the Holy Spirit was born through Mary. Here we see the human origins of Jesus. His ancestry goes from Mary up to Adam. According to the Bible every person came from first humans, Adam and Eve. Jesus not only came from Adam, His genealogy includes great prophets and men of God such as Abraham, Isaac, David, Solomon etc. See Matthew 1:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:17;&version=50;).

Definition of DNA:

Now let us see if title "Son of God" is appropriate to Jesus logically.
Bible and Quran confirm that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Mathew 1:20; Sura 3:46).

Now let’s examine the word Father.
According to the Webster New World Dictionary, Father can be defined as an originator, founder, or inventor. We know that human being is conceived when spermatozoon enters the ovum and fertilize it. Spermatozoon has the DNA (information) of a biological father. This germ cell is part of the biological father and now it is autonomous and after fertilization in ovum and after partaking the nature of a mother it is ontologically new identity, meaning it has the nature of a mother and father. It is the product of union o