More Than One!!! [Archive] - Uzbekistan Online Forum - Онлайн Форум Узбекистана

Abu Hurayra

11-30-2005, 10:27 AM

This is my point)))
This fairy tales about "helping sick and widows" is so lame.
Plus, If you want to help that much, start with ur relatives, with ur poor neighbors. And, Why Cannot one help a widow without taking her into his bed?:?

Its true that You need to start to help to your Relatives Neighbors etc...

But the question here was to marry a Widow or not.
Ofcourse you can help widows Materially(money and etc..).
BUt She needs a man too.We must understand Her too.Ofcource they dont announce to marry,they remain calm. Just imagine a Widow who is still able to give birth (with 1-2-3 children or without them) left without Husband. She has also right to be happy.Children also need an education of Father.Growing without father will somehow damage the Childrens Mood and Pscycology too.
For ins. in Uzb there is still wrong understanding. Mostly Women- Widows livealone and do not marry (to avoid words,gossips of neighbours or etc..).

PS: Me is SIngle Me would Marry a Widow too...
No problem...;)

respectfully Mazlum-formerly (Deadman)

PainKiller

11-30-2005, 10:29 AM

Its true that You need to start to help to your Relatives Neighbors etc...

But the question here was to marry a Widow or not.
Ofcourse you can help widows Materially(money and etc..).
BUt She needs a man too.We must understand Her too.Ofcource they dont announce to marry,they remain calm. Just imagine a Widow who is still able to give birth (with 1-2-3 children or without them) left without Husband. She has also right to be happy.Children also need an education of Father.Growing without father will somehow damage the Childrens Mood and Pscycology too.
For ins. in Uzb there is still wrong understanding. Mostly Women- Widows livealone and do not marry (to avoid words,gossips of neighbours or etc..).

PS: Me is SIngle Me would Marry a Widow too...
No problem...;)

respectfully Mazlum-formerly (Deadman)Well, Just imagine there is a man whose wife died. And he has two kids and nobody wants to marry him. Should a good Muslima take him as a second husband? He needs care too. He needs a woman as well.

PainKiller

11-30-2005, 10:30 AM

For ins. in Uzb there is still wrong understanding. Mostly Women- Widows livealone and do not marry (to avoid words,gossips of neighbours or etc..).

Nah, Women do not get married because of their kids. And this has nothing to do with Gossips and stuff. Women who have daughters think that a new husband will not see his own daughters in her 17 year old girls ;)

Abu Hurayra

11-30-2005, 10:35 AM

Well, Just imagine there is a man whose wife died. And he has two kids and nobody wants to marry him. Should a good Muslima take him as a second husband? He needs care too. He needs a woman as well.
second husband?:shock:

If her First Husband died she can marry him.No Problem.

Otherwise question is wrong...

PainKiller

11-30-2005, 10:36 AM

second husband?:shock:

If her First Husband died she can marry him.No Problem.

Otherwise question is wrong...Yeah, this is exactly how it feels.:lol:
Nah, No sharing. One man, One woman.:lol:

Abu Hurayra

11-30-2005, 10:42 AM

Yeah, this is exactly how it feels.:lol:
Nah, No sharing. One man, One woman.:lol:
...Naja...
I see you are jeleous woman...
I would take you as my third wife :lol:
Please can you say me the number women in our Planet against Men.
I think one woman for one man does not fit anymore...
From history Mostly Men have died in Wars. And babies(male) also die often then female babies. And there are Gays who do not marry....
In this case 1 man for three women???;)

I was not sure in calculations,you can check it statistics...

Mona Lisa

11-30-2005, 10:46 AM

But the question here was to marry a Widow or not.
Ofcourse you can help widows Materially(money and etc..).
BUt She needs a man too.We must understand Her too.Ofcource they dont announce to marry,they remain calm. Just imagine a Widow who is still able to give birth (with 1-2-3 children or without them) left without Husband. She has also right to be happy.Children also need an education of Father.Growing without father will somehow damage the Childrens Mood and Pscycology too.
For ins. in Uzb there is still wrong understanding. Mostly Women- Widows livealone and do not marry (to avoid words,gossips of neighbours or etc..).

1. In fact point was marrying another woman not because to make her happy but marrying so sake of feeding family and herself since she was either old or widow.

1. Children do get affected once they see that thier mom is wife of another man. Because initial mom, dad and kids concept is eroded. How would you justify that?

PainKiller

11-30-2005, 10:53 AM

...Naja...
I see you are jeleous woman...
I would take you as my third wife :lol:
Please can you say me the number women in our Planet against Men.
I think one woman for one man does not fit anymore...
From history Mostly Men have died in Wars. And babies(male) also die often then female babies. And there are Gays who do not marry....
In this case 1 man for three women???;)

I was not sure in calculations,you can check it statistics...
Yeah, there are lesbians who do not want men either(Why would u skip this part when mentioning gay males? :lol: )
This Pro-Poligamy BS does not work for me, hon. Sorry.:(

Abu Hurayra

11-30-2005, 11:40 AM

In fact point was marrying another woman not because to make her happy but marrying so sake of feeding family and herself since she was either old or widow.
In fact children do get affected once they see that thier mom is wife of another man. Because initial mom, dad and kids concept is eroded. How would you justify that?
Marrying only to feed is (sorry for saying this) like buying a sheep and feeding it.
As man marrys to this kind of woman he must share all material matters and emotional matters equally among his women.
about children:
Wives of man will love those children and Father too, In these Harmonical Relation there wont be any Problem....

Inkognito: NO COmments ;)

PS: Put yourself instead of Widow...and just think...

PainKiller

11-30-2005, 12:48 PM

PS: Put yourself instead of Widow...and just think...If i ever Widow, My dear Mazlum, I would rather be by myself, than making one person unhappy(I mean the wife ;) )

Aziz

11-30-2005, 04:49 PM

I think marrying another women because she is a widow or so is just one of the reasons.
what are they???

stanford

11-30-2005, 05:27 PM

If you were able....are you going to marry more than one wife???
If yes or no....why??

No,because of harm to the first one. It's not wise to marry for a second wife (even it is permitted).

Aziz

11-30-2005, 05:39 PM

No,because of harm to the first one. It's not wise to marry for a second wife (even it is permitted).

I'll better not to say (not wise) because the Prophet (pbuh)married more than one.
actually the second marriage is a big risk can be handled only by a wise man.

Guardian

11-30-2005, 05:47 PM

stanford

11-30-2005, 06:14 PM

I'll better not to say (not wise) because the Prophet (pbuh)married more than one.

The Prophet Muhammad S.A.V had various specific reasons for those marriages which all had to do with his role as the leader of the new Muslim ummah.

Mubina

11-30-2005, 09:52 PM

Wives of man will love those children and Father too, In these Harmonical Relation there wont be any Problem.......

Harmonical Relations? did u really mean this?

PS: Put yourself instead of Widow...and just think...

i would be prefer position of widow rather than 1st, 2nd, 3rd position in one's family, 'coz it would not my family then.

Зумраша

11-30-2005, 10:03 PM

Azis,

ay em gonna merri tu vayfs... althou botx of txem mast bi layked by me... yes, yes, egositik me...

Mubina

11-30-2005, 10:05 PM

If you were able....are you going to marry more than one wife???
If yes or no....why??
this forum is full of threads about polygamy, why u don't go to them and see them.

that's a pity but almost all men (80 %) will agree to have more than 1 wife, if they would be able to handle this "harmonical atmosphere". and it's not because of compasiion to the widow with 3 children and/or to pious old woman.

Зумраша

11-30-2005, 10:10 PM

NO! Because, I am totally against the idea of polygamy (inc. polygyny & polyandry) and group marriages. It's from my nature that I can't live with more then one wife in the same time, or be a co-husband to someone. it's disgusting! :evil: bi e riel MAN then!!! prey, gife zakat and ask GOD to meyk yu potent innaf for... meyking saffishent moeny for twu vayfs :D :lool:

Зумраша

11-30-2005, 10:11 PM

Delf

11-30-2005, 10:46 PM

Aziz,

Say, there was a pious old woman or a widow with 3 children who was desperate to get married again as she was no longer able to maintain her family. Would you take them as your co-wives?

Why would then human kind ever invent something called Social Safety Net (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_safety_net)?

Delf.

PainKiller

11-30-2005, 10:56 PM

No Poligamy in my Family.
I don't care how other's live, but in MY case, I believe in simple math:
woman+man=happy family.

Abu Hurayra

12-01-2005, 12:45 AM

No,because of harm to the first one. It's not wise to marry for a second wife (even it is permitted).

It depends on your wife and the society in which you live.
speaking about real Muslima's who understand the Religion will never be upset or sad...But in a Societys ike former USSR mostly people have negative opinion about this issue as they have not lived in Islamic culture and Its difficult for them to accept it.(Even for those Women who pretend recently have learned and Practiced Islam-Its still hard to understand for them...).

Guardian: Becarefull Ignoring Ayats of Allah If you pretend to be a Muslim. Being Against Polygamy is Ignoring the Order of Allah. Thus Its not obligatory to all men to marry more than one wives.

Mubina:I meant if all members of family will love eachother and behaive relatively the children will never feel something that hurts their heart....
(You surprised me :rolleyes: )

Ofcourse Men also must not miss use the Polygamy for their Pleasure.
I attached usefull article about this issue...

Ulug'bek

12-01-2005, 01:35 AM

If you were able....are you going to marry more than one wife???
If yes or no....why??

Aziz,
living in Saudi Arabia you see things differently than us and vice versa!

There are many more important topics relating to Uzbeks in Saudi Arabia to discuss about than this 'taaddud az zawjat', why don't you invite more Saudi born Uzbeks to the forum and get involved in discussing with them more important topics, where you can get our opinons expressed too?!

You are about to lose your national identity there, keeping which could be helpful for you and for us when we have a good government in the future!

Although I am not a nationalist, I believe in utilising all possible social relations in betterment of people's life economically, culturally, politically etc. That is why I am for the uzbek and turk unity around the globe without any negative features such as racism for example.

One important topic for you would be the role and place of Uzbek Language for Saudi Uzbeks!
It is shame on Uzbek community there that they don't have any well-organised school (i have heard that there were few very very poor madrasas for uzbeks) or other educational institutions where Uzbek is medium of instruction for some sibjects at least, where highly qualified academicians could be employed (from uzbekistan for example)!

As to poligamy, the God who created humanbeing knows well if that was useful or not at least in some circumstances. But at the same time, He conditioned that marriage very toughly, as He knew again, it is not the matter of pleasure to have and manage happy family life with more than one wife!
I agree that here I used a religious argument and that is void for those who do not consider the religion a source of the knowledge!

For them I would say: why it could be allowed to have more than one girlfriend or boyfriend without any legal binding and responsibility or at least those who having that are not blamed that much, but the same case if it happens in a way with legal binding and the full resonsibility of man for the lady and for 'to be' children is not allowed?

Anyway, it must be known well, that Islam is not all about poligamy and implementing the Islamic traditions doesn' start with the poligamy or end there! It is only a solutionary measure for some problematic cases of some people or societies IF ALL CONDITIONS ARE FULFILLED!
Quran explicitly states: If you fear not being just, then it is ONLY ONE!

And one more thing, men in a normal situation, especially in the societies like those of Central Asia only resort to have a second wife if he is not satisfied with his first wife or didn't find in his wife what he wanted to see and at the same time he wanted to keep her for various reasons, some of which could be justified!
So, ladies who are very much worried about their husband (I don't want name anybody, also it is obvious who they are:) ), my advice to you is the following:
Please do your best in stasfying your husbands in all ways, as Lorelei said once: even a singil kind word matters in this respect very much, don't say it is kind of accepting husbands superioruty upon you, if you show him extra-ordinary care, he also will return that attitude with respect and gartitude, which ultimately lead to happy family life. In case he didn't recognise this kindness of you, give him some more time and see, if he is still bad to you, I think you should better get rid of him, before it is too late!

Mubina

12-01-2005, 03:08 AM

Mubina:I meant if all members of family will love eachother and behaive relatively the children will never feel something that hurts their heart....
(You surprised me )

Do you think that 2 wives of one man can love each other, and their children can do the same? do u ppl really think it's possible? i doubt, even if i will see such a family i will never believe that there is peaceful aura in this family.

I am against of all kind of polygamy, polygamy it's not Allah (swt)'s order, it's not an order at all. and it's not obligatory[farz] (!) for all men, there is no exception. It's an ayat, and only suggestion, not strict order. Not doing this, does not mean ignoring this, why should i accept it if I am happy without? Should I find one widow for my husband to show my gratitude to Allah (swt), i know a lot of other things which I can do for the sake of my Lord, and which would not harm neither me nor other person.

Thus Its not obligatory to all men to marry more than one wives.

sorry, if i disappointed you Mazlum, but i believe 'harmony" in my family can be reached only without polygamy. 1 man+1 woman+children - it's my choice.

Abu Hurayra

12-01-2005, 04:00 AM

Do you think that 2 wives of one man can love each other, and their children can do the same? do u ppl really think it's possible? i doubt, even if i will see such a family i will never believe that there is peaceful aura in this family..
Yes It can be,maybe you have not seen such family,But I myself have seen. Ofcourse at first there were gossips of Neighbours. But now They live in peace,they love and respect each other. Both wives see the chilren of them as if they gave birth. Children also do not distinguish Mothers.

I am against of all kind of polygamy, polygamy it's not Allah (swt)'s order, it's not an order at all. and it's not obligatory[farz] (!) for all men, there is no exception. It's an ayat, and only suggestion, not strict order. Not doing this, does not mean ignoring this, why should i accept it if I am happy without? Should I find one widow for my husband to show my gratitude to Allah (swt), i know a lot of other things which I can do for the sake of my Lord, and which would not harm neither me nor other person.
..
Becarefull please saying those words, I did not say that its Obligatory to have wives. Being against to all kinds of Polygamy is also Ignoring that Suggestion of Allah!Please Becarefull of saying that.
Maybe Its your personal opinion...

sorry, if i disappointed you Mazlum, but i believe 'harmony" in my family can be reached only without polygamy. 1 man+1 woman+children - it's my choice.

I do not say anything to your choice,Its your life,Its your business. But strongly ask you to avoid commenting on ayats of Qur'an.

PS: Once after a VIctory from War,Bibihonum Presented a Girl to Amir Timur....where are those Bibihonums????...pity...:((((

Uzbekxonim

12-01-2005, 04:07 AM

PS: Once after a VIctory from War,Bibihonum Presented a Girl to Amir Timur....where are those Bibihonums????...pity...:((((

it seems like that one woman wouldn't be enough for you?:lol:

on: for me personally to marry 2nd, 3rd etc wife appears like legalising mistresses:rolleyes:

Abu Hurayra

12-01-2005, 04:40 AM

it seems like that one woman wouldn't be enough for you?:lol:

I was speaking In general...
but Me must marry at first to one, about second and third wife will think about later. :lol:

on: for me personally to marry 2nd, 3rd etc wife appears like legalising mistresses:rolleyes:

Its more than that...Misstesses is easy choice for Men(Jahil),because no Responsibility(or less),No together life (under one roof) etc...No children...(mostly)...

PS: Uzbehonum would what you do if you will remain as Widow(hudo kursatmasin)now at your age? Would you marry?

Uzbekxonim

12-01-2005, 05:31 AM

Its more than that...Misstesses is easy choice for Men(Jahil),because no Responsibility(or less),No together life (under one roof) etc...No children...(mostly)...

yeees, of course it's more than that - if you legalise your mistress (marry her) you will not be commititng a sin:lol:

PS: Uzbehonum would what you do if you will remain as Widow(hudo kursatmasin)now at your age? Would you marry?

yes, I would marry in a couple of years (when the pain of death/hudo saqlasin/ will be less) but not because of financial support of a man or sex but because of having family.

i believe that widows shoudn't burry themselves with their died husbands.

Abu Hurayra

12-01-2005, 06:22 AM

yeees, of course it's more than that - if you legalise your mistress (marry her) you will not be commititng a sin:lol:

yes, I would marry in a couple of years (when the pain of death/hudo saqlasin/ will be less) but not because of financial support of a man or sex but because of having family.

i believe that widows shoudn't burry themselves with their died husbands.
thank you for your repply! (javobiz manga yoqdi...)
Normally in Islam Widow (whose Husband has died or etc) must wait for the "Idda" I think minimum 3 month(three mense periods),than she can marry to another man.
No need to bury herself. Death comes to all off us,Early, later or Soon....
Let us look to life with hope!!!

Gareeb

12-01-2005, 06:28 AM

Do you think that 2 wives of one man can love each other, and their children can do the same? do u ppl really think it's possible? i doubt, even if i will see such a family i will never believe that there is peaceful aura in this family.

I am against of all kind of polygamy, polygamy it's not Allah (swt)'s order, it's not an order at all. and it's not obligatory[farz] (!) for all men, there is no exception. It's an ayat, and only suggestion, not strict order. Not doing this, does not mean ignoring this, why should i accept it if I am happy without? Should I find one widow for my husband to show my gratitude to Allah (swt), i know a lot of other things which I can do for the sake of my Lord, and which would not harm neither me nor other person.

sorry, if i disappointed you Mazlum, but i believe 'harmony" in my family can be reached only without polygamy. 1 man+1 woman+children - it's my choice.
Do you think 1husband/1wife always love each other?
The justice and love which you talking about is impossible, even the Prothet (SAW) could not have afforded to give that love to all of his wives.As you know Hadija and Oyisha (RA) were most beloved wives of him(sav). So can you say Prophet (SAV) did not make justice among his wives? Of course not.
The judgement you are making is completly wrong.You may not like poligamy, it is your personal choice but do not speak for others, you do not know all the circumtanses.

-JUST-

12-01-2005, 01:51 PM

"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." [Quran 4:3]

From the verse it is also clear that Polygyny(having more then one wife) is NOT something compulsory but only permissible. Everything that is permissible is not compulsory. Also no one can force anyone to marry. In Islam both the parties have equal rights to choose their partners hence a man cannot force a woman to marry him.

Polygyny serves a very practical purpose in certain circumstances, times and places. Because of the temptation to commit injustice, the responsibilities in polygamy are great. So great that it is not for everyone. But one should not entertain the thought that it is not for anyone. Polygamy is not abrogated in Islam and no one should make unlawful what Allah has made lawful.

Allah ta'ala allowed men to marry up to four wives and set the condition (NOT an option) that if a man decides to marry more than one wife, he has to treat them equally (i.e.clothe them,feed them,care for them equally). If a man thinks he won't be able to maintain equity and often men can't handle that, Allah said it's better that you stick to one and Allah for sure, knows best.

Marrying a second woman isn't a "hanky-panky" issue. It's very serious, that Allah ta'ala Himself made it clear to us to be careful when deciding on this matter.

Also, when muslim women marry they can put this condition in their prenuptial agreement, stating that they will not agree for 2nd marriage. Simple as that.
Now, there are different situations in life, where woman allow their husbands for 2nd marriage because of childlessness for instance. So you see, we can't account for all the conditions in life.

Like some users have mentioned, it's hard to imagine more than one wives that love their husband and respect each other at the same time. It is indeed. Thus, I personally never entertained the thought of marrying more than one, though Allah ta'ala allowed us.

A wife is not a toy, nor is it a posession of a man. It's a trust (amana) for a man to bear responsibility for her. Despite all the good things that come with marrying a beloved one, marriage is still not an easy thing, and you can ask your mom or dad.

So to sum it up, men are allowed to marry up to four woman, but only if he can treat them equally and be just. Women on the other hand, can oppose the consecutive marriages of her husband via prenuptial agreement. There are those who abuse this permission of marrying up to four wives, but the men of understanding will not abuse this right. May Allah guide us all and protect us from doing injustice unto others.

daejeon

12-01-2005, 02:33 PM

No Poligamy in my Family.
I don't care how other's live, but in MY case, I believe in simple math:
woman+man=happy family.
man+woman=happy family :lol:

Administrator

12-01-2005, 03:02 PM

Hmm is that always the case for marrying another woman?
Tell me, is marrying to another man only the option available for woman to feed her family? Or are widows so incapable in this society?
beva ayollarga"yordam" va "dastak" haqida gap ketganda nima kozda tutilganini ham muhimdir,togri hamma bevalarni ham moddiy jihatdan sharoyiti yomon bolmaydi ammo bu "yordam" siz men va kumushbibi juda ham yahshi bilgan boshqa tarafi ham bordir. togri maslan garbda ayollar bu maslani onsncha hal qiladi lekin musilmon jamiyatda kopchilik ornomusin bilgan saqlagan ayollar 2. yoki 3.hotin bolsihiga ham jon dep turibti bugnki ozbeksitonnig real hayotida hozir faqatgina poytahtimiz toshkentda bunga juda kop ornak bordir.bazida bu voqelar menga anekdot bolib korinadi tovba qildim 2 oy oldin bir tanishim erini 2.hotin borligi bilib qolib janjal kotarib eriga 2-hotin bilan korishishga tanqid qilb qoygandan keyin 5-6 kun otgach 2.hotini erining 1.hotin ga telefon qilib maylin 2 haftda bir kelsa ham roz bolardim lekin mnedan qizganmang depti..aslin olganda towba qildimi lekin bunga kulgan insonning ozi johil bolsa kerak.

Administrator

12-01-2005, 03:08 PM

Administrator

12-01-2005, 03:29 PM

Aziz
men hali uylanmaganman.lekin 1 hotin ham yetadi dep oylayman. ohirgi paytga kelib qizlarni yuz korinishiga,qomatiga emas balki aqliga kora baho beradigan bolib qolganman(nega oldinlari buni farqida emas ekanman.),tovuq miya qizlardan ming chiroyli bolsa ham negadir jirkanadigan bolib qolganman,yonibda tursa ensab qotib bir solvorgim kladi tumshugiga,insonlarni 2.hotin olshni harhil sabablarga kora boladi bazilar nafsini tiylomay doyimo yosh qizlar bilan jinsiy aloqada bolish niyatida,bazilar esa hotini TOVUQ miyya bolgani erini rihiy tomondan qoniqtirmay qoladi va boshqa bir hotinda osha istagan narsasin korib darrov unga boglanib qoladi,qarbsizki ertasi kuni nikohdan ham otgan ..hullas afsuslar bolsinki real hoyot biz hohlagan hayotdan ancha farq qiladi.

Mubina

12-01-2005, 07:46 PM

Becarefull please saying those words, I did not say that its Obligatory to have wives. Being against to all kinds of Polygamy is also Ignoring that Suggestion of Allah!Please Becarefull of saying that.
Maybe Its your personal opinion...

not performing this does not mean ignoring this. as I told you I am happy without, and my husband Alhamdullilah does not need 2nd or 3rd wife, when he will need them, i simply go out of his life, and give him a chance to have those widows as his 2nd or 3rd wives.

i don't want to argue with you on this issue, as u never understand me, and i will never understand you.

salam aleykum brother.

Abu Hurayra

12-02-2005, 12:59 AM

not performing this does not mean ignoring this. as I told you I am happy without, and my husband Alhamdullilah does not need 2nd or 3rd wife, when he will need them, i simply go out of his life, and give him a chance to have those widows as his 2nd or 3rd wives.

i don't want to argue with you on this issue, as u never understand me, and i will never understand you.

salam aleykum brother.
Assalamu Aleykum Dear Sister in Islam,
I do not want to argue with you too, I do understand you very well.
I did never say that not performing was ignoring it.
I was upset when you and some forum uz er s (who pretend to be Muslim) said that they were against all kind of polygamy. I was upset that because of this saying you would make a sin.
As its clear to us Its not obligatory to marry wives, but it is Permisable.
To be against and to dislike this also may lead to Sin.We must be concerned of every word we said about Word of Allah.
I just wanted to remind you about this issue.

For the rest of answer check your Messege inbox.

Jazakullohu Chairan!

aawwb,

PS:I was speaking in General, Everyone may have different point of view...
Recommend to review the tawseer of the last two Verses of Sura Az-Zalzala...

Кумушбиби

12-02-2005, 01:24 AM

Why would then human kind ever invent something called Social Safety Net (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_safety_net)?

Delf.
Делф, вы прямо, как Алиса в Стране Чудес. Сидите себе в Америке и ничего дальше своего носа не видите. Идея исполнительного органа власти по проблемам социальной защиты населения конечно хорошая, за исключением одной лишь малости. Пользоваться этой системой имеют честь только граждане привилегированных государств. А их на пальцах пересчитать можно. Так что ж другие? Что делать вдовам, проживающим, где-нибудь, в Папуа-Новой Гвинее? Им этот феномен соц. обеспечения, даже во сне не снилась.

Далеко ходить не надо. У нас в Ташкенте, в городе хлебном, вдовы с детьми не доедают. Мало того, что проявляется тотальное безразличие к судьбам вдов и их детям со стороны некомпетентного государственного аппарата, так у нас ещё существуют и социальное табу. В узбекском социуме превалирует антипатия и предвзятость к вдовам и разведённым женщинам. Они у нас вроде прошлогоднего снега.

Поэтому, Делф, не с мельницами бороться надо, как это делал Дон Кихот Ламанчский, а с социальной несправедливостью и предрассудками. А полигамия, которая, про между прочим, в узбекском обществе существует неофициально, для многих женщин решает проблему бедности. Остаётся-таки её (ограниченную полигамию) узаконить.

Кумушбиби

12-02-2005, 01:29 AM

Hmm is that always the case for marrying another woman?
Tell me, is marrying to another man only the option available for woman to feed her family? Or are widows so incapable in this society?
Dear Lisa,

Please look at this young widow: http://www.uzland.info/2005/andijan26.jpg

How difficult do you think it would be for her to find a respectable job, which will provide this lady with the means to feed her family? Please keep in mind Uzbekistan’s sky-high unemployment rate. Also, take into account the fact that she’d lost her husband in the Andijan massacre. Thus, as far as the Uzbek government is concerned – she is the terrorist’s wife. I’m kind of guessing that she won’t be getting a job anytime soon.

So, how is this lady supposed to live? I’d imagine that, in the short term, she would be relying on the generosity of her relatives. Long term? How about marrying someone that will satisfy her emotional and financial needs? Perhaps, someone like Aziz or Deadman (a.k.a. Mazlum).:D

Uzbekxonim

12-02-2005, 01:42 AM

uzbekhonum
sizga savol
man siz liberallar homosexual notabiy gay marrieglarni legalasshtirsh haqida kop gapiradi
lekin tabiy hetrosexual bolgan poligamy haqida gap ketganda bunga izvrasheniye deysizlar,gaylar toy qilsa jirkach emasde lekin 1 tdan kop hotinga uylansih sizlar uchun jirkach..he dunyoni ishalari qiziq.

Administrator-aka, men uchun marriage bu ikki adamning soyuzi, homosexualmi, heterosexualmi farqi yoq. eng asosiysy ikki kishi bo'lganiligi.

poligamy men uchun tabiy bolmagan narsa, izvrashenie emas, not natural.

Mubina

12-02-2005, 02:06 AM

I was upset when you and some forum uz er s (who pretend to be Muslim) said that they were against all kind of polygamy. I was upset that because of this saying you would make a sin.
As its clear to us Its not obligatory to marry wives, but it is Permisable.

bunday deyish hatto, chunki siz yoqi boshqa bir inson kim mo'min kim johil ekanligini ayta olmaydi.
i replied to your PM.

Have a good day brother and Peace,

G.

Abu Hurayra

12-02-2005, 02:53 AM

bunday deyish hatto, chunki siz yoqi boshqa bir inson kim mo'min kim johil ekanligini ayta olmaydi.
i replied to your PM.

Have a good day brother and Peace,

G.
I think here there was missunderstanding, I have not said anyone Mumin or Jahil or etc.

Whatever Goodluck! ;)

See Detailed answer from PM

PS: Happy Jum'a(Friday) to all,The Leader of Days the Haj o for Miskeens!
aawwb.

Mubina

12-02-2005, 03:46 AM

I think here there was missunderstanding, I have not said anyone Mumin or Jahil or etc.

Whatever Goodluck! ;)

See Detailed answer from PM

PS: Happy Jum'a(Friday) to all,The Leader of Days the Haj o for Miskeens!
aawwb.
Juma'h Muborak brother,

thank you for PM, I appreciate your care.

Mona Lisa

12-02-2005, 04:35 AM

Dear Lisa,

Please look at this young widow: http://www.uzland.info/2005/andijan26.jpg

How difficult do you think it would be for her to find a respectable job, which will provide this lady with the means to feed her family? Please keep in mind Uzbekistan’s sky-high unemployment rate. Also, take into account the fact that she’d lost her husband in the Andijan massacre. Thus, as far as the Uzbek government is concerned – she is the terrorist’s wife. I’m kind of guessing that she won’t be getting a job anytime soon.

So, how is this lady supposed to live? I’d imagine that, in the short term, she would be relying on the generosity of her relatives. Long term? How about marrying someone that will satisfy her emotional and financial needs? Perhaps, someone like Aziz or Deadman (a.k.a. Mazlum).:D
1. Why you guys think that only the way help someone i.e. widow is by marrying her? What happened to social care schemes? What's wrong with being widow does it make her inferior in society?
2. We live in different society not the midevial times where only resource for women to stand alive was by getting married. I understand reason behind polygamy since at that time a) women were least educated and inferior so couldn't take care of herself, b) social care system was non - existent, c) women couldn't or were not able to become breadwinner due to family responcibilities. So only the way out and provide care was by marrying someone can take care. But today that's not the case anymore. Women can work, claim social benefit, and basicly still live!!!
3. As you said yourself that there is high rates unemployment in Uzb, since that is the case what do you expect from a single man to feed couple of wives and their kids?
4. If her husband is dead too bad I feel sorry for her. But that's not the end. Many women in Uzb live and think that it's her husband who feeds, dresses and takes care of family but when danger strikes they become so vulnurable. Why? Because just like you most of think that marrying is only the way out. And they don't even move their a$$ an inch. In fact many things an individual can do, she doesn't need generousity of relatives or neighbours. Why so many can work but widow of Andijan massacre can't! Of course she can, if she is willing and not that stupid.
5. Marriage isn't there to cover up your inadequacies, not even solution. If anyone who feels to get married that's a choice, but not a resource for social support and the way to feed one's family.

Кумушбиби

12-02-2005, 07:50 AM

Mona Lisa, I think you’re gradually wandering off the main subject of the discussion - polygamy. Nevertheless, I’ll try to answer your queries.

I agree that:

i) Remarriage for widows is not the only way to unravel financial obstacles

ii) Women are ought to aspire to become literate and indoctrinated

iii) No resources should be spared in the quest to train professional women

iv) If needed, women should be prepared to use the skills they once acquired

I disagree that:

i)The social security system that provides widow allowance is the magic answer to the question at issue. Many societies have never heard of such schemes, let alone benefit from them.

ii) All women can work. I’m afraid some can’t (reasons: young children, disability, unskilled etc.)

iii) Widows are the “inferior members of the society”. However, unfortunately, in some cultures (esp. those where a high value is placed on a bride’s virginity) widows and divorced women get frowned at.

iv) Polygamy is simply for “uneducated” and “incapable” women/widows. Many educated and well-to-do widows choose to live in polygamous relationships. Many of them aspire to a respectable family life. Widows are human beings; they need to legitimately satisfy their instinctive needs.

v) Males in Uzbekistan are incapable of looking after several wives and their children. Fortunately, (and sometimes, unfortunately) many of them are certainly capable. Many of us have listened to stories about polygamous relationships in Uzbekistan. Sadly, most of the women in such relationships are only mistresses, who are being exploited and used as tools for men’s pleasure. In Islam, on the other hand, the permission to practice polygamy is not associated with mere satisfaction of passion. It is rather associated with compassion towards widows and orphans. In Islam, the rights of women are secured. Duties, rules and regulations are established to protect the interests of those involved.

Delf

12-02-2005, 08:03 AM

Делф, вы прямо, как Алиса в Стране Чудес. Сидите себе в Америке и ничего дальше своего носа не видите. Идея исполнительного органа власти по проблемам социальной защиты населения конечно хорошая, за исключением одной лишь малости. Пользоваться этой системой имеют честь только граждане привилегированных государств. А их на пальцах пересчитать можно. Так что ж другие? Что делать вдовам, проживающим, где-нибудь, в Папуа-Новой Гвинее? Им этот феномен соц. обеспечения, даже во сне не снилась.

Далеко ходить не надо. У нас в Ташкенте, в городе хлебном, вдовы с детьми не доедают. Мало того, что проявляется тотальное безразличие к судьбам вдов и их детям со стороны некомпетентного государственного аппарата, так у нас ещё существуют и социальное табу. В узбекском социуме превалирует антипатия и предвзятость к вдовам и разведённым женщинам. Они у нас вроде прошлогоднего снега.

Поэтому, Делф, не с мельницами бороться надо, как это делал Дон Кихот Ламанчский, а с социальной несправедливостью и предрассудками. А полигамия, которая, про между прочим, в узбекском обществе существует неофициально, для многих женщин решает проблему бедности. Остаётся-таки её (ограниченную полигамию) узаконить.
Если так рассуждать, то можно узаконить и рабство.
На свете огромное количество людей которые не могут о себе позаботиться, так почему же не позволить им продавать себя в рабство, когда это материально помогло бы их семье, и в то же время обеспечило их (рабов) работой, жильем и едой?

Кумушбиби, вы должны понять, что думая что вы решаете одну проблему вы можете создать кучу других.
Одним из главных проблем будет раздел имущества. Рассмортим следующую ситуацию:
К примеру, вы и 50-летняя женщина замужем за одним мужчиной. У вас от него 2 детей, у нее один ребенок. Вы замужем за ним 10 лет, она - 30. Он умирает и оставляет после себя $1 млн. наследства. Вопрос: кто сколько должен унаследовать, чтобы это было справедливо?

Или же, к примеру, он постепенно теряет свое состояние и более не способен обеспечивать двух жен. Имеет ли он тогда право развестись с вами? Со старшей женой? Если через некоторое время он преуспеет опять, может ли он взять новую жену/жен?

Пора наконец понять, что проблема бедности не разрешима легко.
Что это требует, чтобы в стране были: нормальная экономическая система, позволяющая экономический рост, а также справедливое распределение результатов данного экономического роста. Для первого вам необходимо иметь рыночные механизмы, для второго - избираемые органы власти, действующие в интересах всех граждан.

Delf.
P.S. In Islam, the rights of women are secured. Duties, rules and regulations are established to protect the interests of those involved. Are you serious? Women are very insecure and undermined in Islam. They even don't want to drive cars, according to His Exellency, Ambassador of Saudia Arabia. Society that best protects and gives equal rights to woman is modern Western democracies. Especially Scandinavian countries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden#International_rankings).
"Mothers' index rank: 1st of 119 countries
Women's index rank: 1st of 119 countries,
% women with seats in the national government: 50% (highest)"
And yes, Sweden is competetive: "World Economic Forum Global Competitiveness Report [10] (2004) - 3rd of 104 countries"

Mona Lisa

12-02-2005, 10:16 AM

Mona Lisa, I think you’re gradually wondering off the main subject of the discussion - polygamy. Nevertheless, I’ll try to answer your queries.

If you percieve as such please be my guest! :)

The social security system that provides widow allowance is the magic answer to the question at issue. Many societies have never heard of such schemes, let alone benefit from them.
Really? Let's say polygamy is less magical answer. What happens to those who don't want to get married again? Or who doesn't want to be 2nd, 3rd or 4th wife? Tell me what happens when polygamy becomes tool for personal indulgense and discrimination against women. Tell me what happens for those women nobody wants to marry even as the 4th wife? Since according to you polygamy is the way forward to create social care for women. You and other pro - polygamy group can you guarantee that every men able to make rational, objective decision and creat blind care for all women. As far as I know that's impossible.
So called magical social security system is more objective in nature and it doesn't leave out anyone or doesn't rely on subjective desicion - making of single individual. Most importantly benefits distributed equally.

For those societies who don't have social care system maybe they should start having one.

All women can work. I’m afraid some can’t (reasons: young children, disability, unskilled etc.)
Don't put children as an obstacle. What happened to relatives, friends, kidergartens?
If unskilled then its possible to be trained.
If disable it doesn't mean that woman can't work or earn money. That's very discriminatory and unjust to put aside a person if she is handicapped.

Widows are the “inferior members of the society”. However, unfortunately, in some cultures (esp. those where a high value is placed on a bride’s virginity) widows and divorced women get frowned at
For the start I never claimed that 'widows are inferior'. Secondly, as far as I understood you're comfortable with giving widows, divorced 'secondary citizen' label and it's prefectly reasonable for them to be 2nd, 3rd or 4th wife. Where is equlity and justice?
Polygamy is simply for “uneducated” and “incapable” women/widows. Many educated and well-to-do widows choose to live in polygamous relationships. Many of them aspire to a respectable family life. Widows are human beings; they need to legitimately satisfy their instinctive needs.
Polygamy for no one! Indeed widows are human beings! However, polygamy doesn't necessarily provide as you claim 'legitimate satisfaction of instinctive needs' for women. It rather legitimises to estabilsh irregular martial institution, instead equality it creates division between different members of society, and sadly women become victims of such action.
Males in Uzbekistan are incapable of looking after several wives and their children. Fortunately, (and sometimes, unfortunately) many of them are certainly capable. Many of us have listened to stories about polygamous relationships in Uzbekistan. Sadly, most of the women in such relationships are only mistresses, who are being exploited and used as tools for men’s pleasure.
Indeed you already mentioned how women were exploited, in fact it is a norm rather than exception. That gives another justified reason to go against polygamy.
In Islam, on the other hand, the permission to practice polygamy is not associated with mere satisfaction of passion. It is rather associated with compassion towards widows and orphans. In Islam, the rights of women are secured. Duties, rules and regulations are established to protect the interests of those involved.
Human beings including you and me incapable of making objective decisions thus impossible to rule out passion and emotions. In that respect polygamy can't be exercised as it was charactersized in religious point of view

Administrator

12-02-2005, 12:34 PM

Administrator-aka, men uchun marriage bu ikki adamning soyuzi, homosexualmi, heterosexualmi farqi yoq. eng asosiysy ikki kishi bo'lganiligi.

unday bolsa
hosha masalan akasi sjinglsi bilan yoki ogil ona bilan nikohlashsa
bu ham siz ucuhn naturalmi? .ahir ikkita inson ishtirok etyaptiku
ular ham odaam ozi hahlagan ishni qilishga haqqir bor.

Administrator

12-02-2005, 12:39 PM

bir narsaga tshunmayman... hudoni aytgan gapini notogrimi yoki togrimi dep bu yerda tortishib otirishimiz ozi mantiq bormi?bu yerda qilyapgan ishimiz juda ham kulgili bolib tuyilyapti.

PainKiller

12-02-2005, 12:55 PM

bir narsaga tshunmayman... hudoni aytgan gapini notogrimi yoki togrimi dep bu yerda tortishib otirishimiz ozi mantiq bormi?bu yerda qilyapgan ishimiz juda ham kulgili bolib tuyilyapti.Administrator, shahsan men Hudoni Kophotinlikka ruhsat bergani hato degan fikrni ilgari surmadim. Menga desa, Atrofimdagilar 10 tadan hotinga, 20 tadan erga tegmaydimi? Men ozim tugrimda gapirdim. Men ozimning erimning boshka hotinlarga uylanishini hohlamas edim.

stanford

12-02-2005, 01:29 PM

We all have to understand that it is a personal choice for those whoever willing to do so, its not compulsory.We believe it's allowance will benefit in some circumtances for responsible people who are capable of going good as stated in Sharia.Nobody is forcing a woman or a man to get married for second time.As some people cannot understand and still argue.

Aziz

12-03-2005, 01:17 PM

I'm sorry because I couldn't read the replies recently because I went to my cousin's widding in Makkah and the next 2 weeks I'll be studying for my major exams...

Brother Ulug'bek...you are right about what you said about Uzbeks in Saudi but what can we do if our parents don't care about teaching us our language, but I promise you I'll learn it no matter what.
About the more important topics that you want me to discuss, I think I posted this topic in order to know how Uzbeks think and how they response to such "sensitive" points.

thank you brothers and sisters.
I'll be back after 4 days

Кумушбиби

12-08-2005, 10:07 AM

Если так рассуждать, то можно узаконить и рабство.
На свете огромное количество людей которые не могут о себе позаботиться, так почему же не позволить им продавать себя в рабство
Делф,

Заботливый вы наш, что же вы замужество с рабством сравниваете? Во-первых, мухи - это мухи, а котлеты - котлеты. Во-вторых, в отличии от рабов женщина имеет целый ряд прав, концепция которых содержалась в исламском вероучении с начала его возникновения, а западное общество пришло к пониманию важности этого вопроса спустя почти четырнадцать веков. И только невежество людей, подобных вам, мешает избавится от ложных измышлений и толкований в вопросе о статусе женщины в Исламе.

По поводу наследства. В Исламе существует целая наука, посвященная справедливому распределению наследства. В ней содержится огромное количество различных тонкостей. Мусульмане, желающие распределить наследство строго в рамках предписанных Шариатом, как правило обращаются к квалифицированному религиозному ученому, знающему правила в данной области. Так что здесь вы не по адресу.

Пару слов про "скандинавское чудо". Помните теорию Шерлока Холмса, хранившего в своем "мыслительном чердаке" только необходимую ему для работы информацию? Так и вы. Запоминаете только, то что вам выгодно и забываете, то что невыгодно. Делф, обещайте, что в следующий раз вы будете более объективным и постараетесь запомнить, что Ислам определил права женщин, в то время как на Западе шли споры о том, есть ли у женщины душа, и ее считали видом собственности. А то вы всё Швеция, да Швеция.

Кумушбиби

12-08-2005, 10:13 AM

Are you serious? Women are very insecure and undermined in Islam.
Serious as I’ll ever be.;)

Islam does not teach oppression of women. You’re mistakenly confusing the cultural practices of some Muslims with Islam as a whole. The roots of the poor treatment of women, in both Muslim and non-Muslim communities, lie in the lack of education and maturity of men responsible for such treatment. Oppression and injustice of any sort is totally against the spirit of Islam. When Islam arrived on the scene, it liberated and gave meaningful rights to women. In fact, historically, Islam was criticised by Christians for giving too many rights to women.

Again, restriction on women’s driving (only Saudi Arabia bans women from driving cars) originate not from Islam, but rather from cultural customs sometimes wrongly justified under an Islamic banner. The ability to drive has little to do with Islam and a lot to do with culture and cultural interpretations of Islam. In Malaysia, for example, Muslim women are seen riding motorcycles, let alone driving cars.

Ironically, Saudi women aren’t allowed to drive, but they own their own companies and are major landowners and there are more women than men in Saudi universities. You’ve mentioned the high number of women in Swedish parliament. Allow me to remind that there have been women prime ministers in Bangladesh, Turkey, and Pakistan and president in Indonesia. There is also a woman vice president in the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Amiri Turkiston

12-08-2005, 11:57 AM

Delf

try to study about Islam more

than you'll understand that Islam is pretty much secure for woman

Also don't mix Islam with some stupid traditions of some nations
I also mean some Uzbek traditions, unfortunately

Delf

12-18-2005, 10:00 PM

bacha

12-18-2005, 11:12 PM

There is so much discussion going on, and mainly among girls about this issue.
OK, girls look, if I will be financially able to marry four of you, I will do that. Why? Because, I am sure that I can make you happy, even four of you. Your future stupid husbands are not worth a single hair on your head, and I will praise each one of them. Most of you will get married and unfortunately be unhappy, that's harsh reality. But, here I am, Zorro of the Womenkind who is able to make you happy. Each one of you, unless married, is my future potential wife, so please, take a number, and stand on line.

Seriously speaking, it really depends on man, everything depends on us. While most of us cannot make even a single woman happy, others are able to bring joy to many women. So why not to marry two, three, or even four of them?!

P.S. Faqat, kurpaga qarab oyoq uzatish kerak ;)

Aziz

12-19-2005, 09:36 AM

While I agree that Islam in the beginning and throughout middle ages has raised women's position in many societies, it has not progressed with time since then.

Women's true freedoms and rights have come after the Age of Enlightenment that occured in Europe.

And I strongly disagree that women's positions is strong and secure in Islamic societies. This is simply not true if you compare them to democratic societies. Be that rights to education, participation in desicion-making or financial independence of women. In every aspect of women's social status democratic societies do better than Islamic societies. The former Pakistani Prime Minister and high officials in Bangladesh and Indonesia are rare exceptions and not the rule. And Turkey is a secular country with muslim majority.

Delf.
P.S. Kumushbibi, a chem vas Shveciya ne ustraivaet? :) Horoshaya strana, vot na nee i nado ravnyatsa, a ne na Pakistan, Bangladesh ili Iran.

You mentioned rights of education, participation in decision making and financial independence of woman.

Do you know that one of the major sources of Hadith (Sunnah) were narrated by women???
Do you know that in Sulh Al-Hudaibeya -which lead to the conqure of Makkah- the Prophet (pbuh) took an opinion from his wife???
Do you know if a very poor man married a very rich woman or lets say "wealthy" he does not have the right to take a single penny of her billions without her permision even if he was starving???

do you have any other questions???

Abu Hurayra

12-20-2005, 02:06 AM

...
The reasons for the negative opinions as well as among those who pretend to be Muslim exist not about only in the case of Polygamy but many other topics are- the Lack of knowledge about Islam and lack of applied Islam* in their life.
Following one order and not giving importance to the other orders of Allah is not good for Muslims, and may lead to big sins.
We must not hurry to make conclusions from what we see now from the illustration of a kind of people or a kind of Nations.
The life of People who we need to take an example is written in our Qur’an, in Hadithes.
Let us Study our Pure Islam and Apply it in our life rather than sitting here and discussing if it was proper to our Nafs’es!
We are just powerless week creatures with a lot of Needs. (We can not live if we do not take breath, we can not live without eating-drinking, we can not live if we do not go to WC etc…)
Let us remember the Purpose of our Creation (http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=51&tid=50575)* and act relatively.

PS:This post was mainly directed to Muslims…
Kumushbibi: Alhamduliallah that there are Sisters with beautiful moral like you…