Glimpse of Hell

[Delf]

There have been numerous acquizations that I have no understanding what real Islam is. That I am Islamophob, that I am godless atheist and that I do not want to understand that it is possible to build a well-governed just society according to Islam where Sharia is the law of the land.

Well, let me tell you that I have nothing against muslims and Islam, as long as it stays away from politics and it is personal practice of people. Yes, I may disagree with what they beleive in, but I fully support their right to practice their beleifs. What I strongly oppose is using Islam (or any other religion) for political purposes.

Some people give a Glimpse of Paradise to convince people to Sharia law.
I will give you a Glimpse of Hell to convince you not to accept Sharia law.
Rise : Revolutionary Women Reenvisioning Afghanistan

Now, again. Please understand that I am not against people to practice their religion. I am against people imposing their religion (Sharia) on others.

As far as what I believe in. My personal beleifs are probably a type of Humanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism). As far as what political system I beleive in, it is probably a Liberal Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy). As far as what economic system I beleive in, it is a market economy with employees having control over enterprises with democratic governing process for enterprises (vs authoritarian debt/stock owner controlled corporations) with an opportunity for investment/stock ownership.

I hope that clarifies many aspects of what I beleive in for many people.

Sincerely,
Delf.

[asena]

It is existing at every religion my friend.So don't secify only islam in this dirty tricks.

[Кумушбиби]

Delf,

Mistreatment of women in Afghanistan can’t be looked to as evidence of “Islam’s” oppression of women. The basis for this kind of judgment is not fair. Please be reasonable and judge Islam by its teachings and not by the behaviour of human beings whose actions are in defiance or ignorance of the religion they claim to follow. Otherwise, it'd be like saying: “Statistics shows that every 6 minutes a woman is being raped in the US, therefore American democracy teaches violence against women”.

For your information, historical and other evidence indicate that Islam raised the status of women. Women played important roles in the early Muslim community. They fought in battles and nursed the wounded during the time of the Prophet (SAW). They owned and sold property, engaged in commercial transactions; they were encouraged to seek and provide educational instructions. As a matter of fact, Muhammad’s own wife Khadija (RA) owned her own business, hired Muhammad (SAW), and later proposed to him.

[al-quds muslim]

There have been numerous acquizations that I have no understanding what real Islam is. That I am Islamophob, that I am godless atheist and that I do not want to understand that it is possible to build a well-governed just society according to Islam where Sharia is the law of the land.
.
DEAR, you really exciting me, you see that religion is known( as you see that religions are the fathe of the fear and weak to know the un knownable or un existed), and i see that alot of your topics are talking about religion, especially political islam, why you are wanting to put your self as an enemy for the islamic thoughts of shareiah and reigning ???, and at the same time, not beleive in religion ???


Well, let me tell you that I have nothing against muslims and Islam, as long as it stays away from politics and it is personal practice of people.
.
why your democratic freedom end thoughts freedom when political islam arise??? and why???

please, the month that you dont bother about it, dont count its days, and my device for you, still away from political islam way, as

1- it not bother you as irreligous .
2- you dont have to attack islamic policy, if you were democratic, or werent, you are to discuss others, not attack there thoughts .

regards

[melo]

Can anyone list an example where political islam was not a disaster? I am a strong believer in God and my beliefs do not fall far from Islam, but I have to agree Islam in government never works. People are too easilt corrupted with power.

[asena]

People are too lazy to learn Islam,and so they prefer "listening" in order to "learning".
And anything you say under the name of "religion",these people believe.That's why religion is not working at politics.But if people were aware of everything at islam,nothing can kid with them.

[melo]

There is no country in the world where everyone could agree on such strict rules like Sharia. Imposing such rules on people is totally unfair. Also, half of the population (women) would have to submit to staying home and having little to no voice in government.

[uzbek living in]

I am a Muslim, and I have to agree with you. I think imposing religios rule on everyone who lives in the country is wrong. People should have a freedom of religion. Imagine if US tomorrow said that it is going to rule by Christian law, what would happen to all the other people who are not Christians. Government and religion do not mix together (exp. Iran, Afganistan, Suadi Arabia and even Israel). I don’t know any country where religious rule has worked yet.

[al-quds muslim]

AS-SALAMU ALAIKUM

Can anyone list an example where political islam was not a disaster? I am a strong believer in God and my beliefs do not fall far from Islam, but I have to agree Islam in government never works. People are too easilt corrupted with power.

alot of examples,

1- the reign of rasoul allah mohammed in madinah
2- the first rashidat khilafah, by the 4 caliphs, abu bakr(raa), omar(raa),othman(raa), ali(raa) .
3- after that, there were some wrong from muslim rulers in some aspects, but still reign in islam in general, although, they have good rulers that made avery good things, and constructed great state with ahigh degree of development at the time alot of countries and communities were in the dark ages.

AND IF YOU TOOK THE HISTORY OF THAT GREAT STATE, YOU CAN SEE ONE OF THE BEST EXAMPLE IN POLITICAL REIGNING, AND 1ST ORDER LEADERSHIP STAFF .


regards

[al-quds muslim]

AS-SALAMU ALAIKUM,


Can anyone list an example where political islam was not a disaster?

dear, this is abad way in discussion, and i see that your questions are to be in better way, you can ask about islamic policy, and discuss it, but you dont have the right to say (disaster)

and i will give you several aspect of the success of islamic policy,

1- islamic policy could gather different human varities in one unit, and in empires the first problem was in the internal struggle between the different human species, but at the contrary in islamic state, arabs, turks, persians, indians, africans, amazigh, europeans, ... etc, all of them were one unit, no struggle, but complete brotherhood .

2- islamic policy, present the great leaders in every way of life, it gave the humanity, the politician, the ethical, the armor leader, the scientists, the human worker,... etc .

3- islamic policy gave all residents there complete rights, if they were muslims or non muislims, other religions not obligated to be muslims .

4- islamic policy, also had avery high grade in the developmental and constructional threads, which fill the world from china to spain .

and if you study the islamic heritage you will find avery great method in policy, and any type of political success you may imagine, you can see that it was made by the islamic policy .

WHERE ARE THE DISASTERS YOU ARE SAYING ABOUT DEAR?????

I have to agree Islam in government never works. People are too easilt corrupted with power.

WHY ??, the methodology which made success in the first time, can repeat it asecond time or not ????

REGARDS

[melo]

Va alleykum assalom

I would think the currents governemnts posing as islamic governments are good examples. Saudi Arabia and Iran are completley hippocriticla systems. Rules are set one way, but life for the rich and powerful is very different. The Taliban government could be considered a disaster. The most successful state with a majority of muslims is secular Turkey. I believe the average person in Turkey probably livs better than in other states with majority mulsim populations.

I was pointing out corruption in that the person in power will always use religion to fit there specific needs and wants. Despite what anyone states, everyone will always have their own interpretation of religion. Why is one persons interpretation more important than anothers?? Therefore the leader of this islamic government would be allowed to dictate what his ideas of islam are to everyone else?

[al-quds muslim]

AS-SALAMU ALAIKUM,


I would think the currents governemnts posing as islamic governments are good examples. Saudi Arabia and Iran are completley hippocriticla systems
Rules are set one way, but life for the rich and powerful is very different.

dear, did you see that iran or saudi arabia govern by the pure islamic laws in the islamic specified way???, take another look for there occupation and dont give your answer very fast .

The most successful state with a majority of muslims is secular Turkey. I believe the average person in Turkey probably livs better than in other states with majority mulsim populations.

with all respect for our beloved turkish brothers, turkey now is too much less than its real position under the islamic reign of khilafah, the position of turkey under rule of khilafah, turkey was the leader of the islamic world, and has avery big position in asia and europe, but in secular turkey, turkey now wanted to be jointed to europe with no acceptance from the europe union till now, and so, islamic policy gave turkey better position than secularism .

I was pointing out corruption in that the person in power will always use religion to fit there specific needs and wants. Despite what anyone states, everyone will always have their own interpretation of religion. Why is one persons interpretation more important than anothers?? Therefore the leader of this islamic government would be allowed to dictate what his ideas of islam are to everyone else?
dear, that is not exact, as in islamic policy, the ruler is not absolute. as the ruler him self governed by islamic shareia'a, so that, if we considered that the islamic ruler will go out islam, he is accounted, so that he couldnt play with religion as he wants, and here the areal example on that great islamic point,

when calif omar bin alkhattab was wanting just to (limit the mahr[money for the woman to be be married, payed to her from her husband]), a WOMAN said for him(how to do that if allah not dont limited it???), then the calif omar replied (omar has wronged, and the woman said the truth).

DO YOU SEE ???

thank you all very much

[al-quds muslim]

AS-SALAMU ALAIKUM,


I am a Muslim, and I have to agree with you. I think imposing religios rule on everyone who lives in the country is wrong. People should have a freedom of religion.

as you are muslim, dont know that islam rule not obligate other religions to change to islam??, there are christians till now between the muslims , yes??? did you see any one hurt them to change there religion?? or did that in the islamic past ages??

Imagine if US tomorrow said that it is going to rule by Christian law, what would happen to all the other people who are not Christians. Government and religion do not mix together (exp. Iran, Afganistan, Suadi Arabia and even Israel). I don’t know any country where religious rule has worked yet.
dear, if the christian do with other religions as islam, no thing will be happened for muslims there .

and as amuslim, and read quran, dont you read (Whoso governs not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers.)
[surat almaedah, ayet 45]

so that, in islam, there is areigning that allah want us to judge by .

thank you all very much

[Delf]

Delf,
Mistreatment of women in Afghanistan can’t be looked to as evidence of “Islam’s” oppression of women. The basis for this kind of judgment is not fair. Please be reasonable and judge Islam by its teachings and not by the behaviour of human beings whose actions are in defiance or ignorance of the religion they claim to follow. Otherwise, it'd be like saying: “Statistics shows that every 6 minutes a woman is being raped in the US, therefore American democracy teaches violence against women”.
Sounds exactly the way communism was defended. Remember? "It is the corrupt officials and faulty beuracrats who did not strictly obey principles of Marxsism-Leninism". You should understand that people are faulty, people act in their own interest and some people will hurt others to achieve their goals. And you should have a political/economic system that takes that into account. So if someone commits rape in US he will go to prison, there is no doubt about it. But I do not think that the man who was wiping those women will go to prison. I beleive he is a well-respected man in a fundamental muslim community.


For your information, historical and other evidence indicate that Islam raised the status of women. Women played important roles in the early Muslim community. They fought in battles and nursed the wounded during the time of the Prophet (SAW). They owned and sold property, engaged in commercial transactions; they were encouraged to seek and provide educational instructions. As a matter of fact, Muhammad’s own wife Khadija (RA) owned her own business, hired Muhammad (SAW), and later proposed to him.
For you information, historical and other evidence indicate that Egypt was most developed and prosperous country in the world for thousands of years. But by no means that is an indication that countries today should be run the way Egypt was run.


Delf.

[SHOHRUHM1]

Salam

If the most evil elements of humanity in the twentieth century can come and mock the sanctity of the words of Allaah or one of His attributes, and make them like the words of any human beings or the words of the dregs of humanity, and use it for amusement and entertainment, and they can get away with that and not have any punishment or ruling of Allaah carried out against them, then this will open the door for people to mess about with the sharee’ah and to insult the Divine Essence and the attributes of Allaah, and to show disrespect towards the greatest things in which the Muslims take pride.

Salam

[Aziz]

Va alleykum assalom

I would think the currents governemnts posing as islamic governments are good examples. Saudi Arabia and Iran are completley hippocriticla systems. Rules are set one way, but life for the rich and powerful is very different. The Taliban government could be considered a disaster. The most successful state with a majority of muslims is secular Turkey. I believe the average person in Turkey probably livs better than in other states with majority mulsim populations.

I was pointing out corruption in that the person in power will always use religion to fit there specific needs and wants. Despite what anyone states, everyone will always have their own interpretation of religion. Why is one persons interpretation more important than anothers?? Therefore the leader of this islamic government would be allowed to dictate what his ideas of islam are to everyone else?



what about Saudi Arabia???
can you tell me about women opression in Saudi???
I don't understand what you are talking about!!!

[Aziz]

There have been numerous acquizations that I have no understanding what real Islam is. That I am Islamophob, that I am godless atheist and that I do not want to understand that it is possible to build a well-governed just society according to Islam where Sharia is the law of the land.

Well, let me tell you that I have nothing against muslims and Islam, as long as it stays away from politics and it is personal practice of people. Yes, I may disagree with what they beleive in, but I fully support their right to practice their beleifs. What I strongly oppose is using Islam (or any other religion) for political purposes.

Some people give a Glimpse of Paradise to convince people to Sharia law.
I will give you a Glimpse of Hell to convince you not to accept Sharia law.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4146504546421438159

Now, again. Please understand that I am not against people to practice their religion. I am against people imposing their religion (Sharia) on others.

As far as what I believe in. My personal beleifs are probably a type of Humanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism). As far as what political system I beleive in, it is probably a Liberal Democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy). As far as what economic system I beleive in, it is a market economy with employees having control over enterprises with democratic governing process for enterprises (vs authoritarian debt/stock owner controlled corporations) with an opportunity for investment/stock ownership.

I hope that clarifies many aspects of what I beleive in for many people.

Sincerely,
Delf.


I don't see how you support the right of muslims to practice Islam and you deny the Sharia which is one of the main parts of Islam!!!

[Delf]

I don't see how you support the right of muslims to practice Islam and you deny the Sharia which is one of the main parts of Islam!!!

Having 4 wives is also an important part of Islam, but somehow I beleive muslims can practice Islam and have only one wife.

Delf.

[Aziz]

Having 4 wives is also an important part of Islam, but somehow I beleive muslims can practice Islam and have only one wife.

Delf.

its not an important....you have the choice to marry or not. thats it
but sharia guides all of your life.

[Delf]

its not an important....you have the choice to marry or not. thats it
but sharia guides all of your life.

You probably misunderstoon me.
What I am saying is that you can practice Islam/Shariah as long as it does not contradict secular laws established in the country.

Four wives is an example where Shariah allows it, but secular law prohibits it. So muslims should not be able to have four wives even if Shariah allows it.


Delf.

[JAVA]

Have any of you been to Afganistan during the time when Taliban ruled the country? Or you make your judgements on some kind kafir propoganda? I can produce tons of propoganda movies about women being mistreated in western countries , so what? I really feel sorry for you people, you are being brainwashed and dont even realizing that.
I may not agree on everything what Taliban did, but i would love to live in Afganistan of that period of time. Yes, there were some economical problems, lack of basic acomodation, etc. so what? Didnt you read the life story of our Prophet (SAW) , and his Ashabs? They didnt have all the comforts which modern day muslims have. Yes, Taliban did some mistakes, we all do. But they did a lot of good stuff too. And if the american terrorists didnot occupy the country Afganistan would have become much better place, even without the help of the kafir countries.
And kafirs countries, why suddenly they started to care about Afganistan people? Wasnt it that countries who refused to supply Afganistan with aid? And now, suddenly, they started to care. What else did the TAliban do wrong? May be , prohibitted women from working? Or destroyed that two pieces of stones? Or may be, put yellow strips on Singh minority? Cmon Delf , tell us?

atpaint, you better watch your kafir mouth when you talk about Islam, ok?
your living in Uzbekitsan , and knowing a couple of uzbek words, doesnt give you right to speak about something what you dont know...

[Delf]

What else did the TAliban do wrong? May be , prohibitted women from working? Or destroyed that two pieces of stones? Or may be, put yellow strips on Singh minority? Cmon Delf , tell us?
They have led the country into disaster. Noone knows how many women were humiliated, raped and killed. Taliban were a gang of bandits using Islam to justify their atrocities and history will remember them exactly like that.

And regarding those two pieces of stone. How would you feel if that black piece of stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone) was destroyed?


atpaint, you better watch your kafir mouth when you talk about Islam, ok?
your living in Uzbekitsan , and knowing a couple of uzbek words, doesnt give you right to speak about something what you dont know...
Don't try to shut other people's mouth if you don't want your mouth to be shut.


Delf.

[JAVA]

" The whole Kabba is not worth of a blood of even one muslim" Hadith (please those who know this hadith write from whcih book it is). Ya Kafir, you though you were smart huh? So now you know my feelings right?

What history will remember them? Your Kafir history? if you did not know , Taliban is coming back, and right now they control almost half of the country. Exactly like it was during russian occupation.
You trully believe that more woman were "humiliated, raped and killed" in Afganistan during Taliban , than in your western countries every day? or russia? or any other country? if you do believe so , i once more feel sorry for you. Like they say " v svoem glazu brfevna ne vidish, a u drugovo salominku uvidel"...

[JAVA]

Some people give a Glimpse of Paradise to convince people to Kafirs WAY OF LIFE .
I will give you a Glimpse of Hell to convince you not to accept Kafirs way of LIFE.
http://kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2005/11/30/39853.shtml

Oh Delf since you know a lot about rapes, read this to increase your knowledge

http://kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2005/12/10/40106.shtml

[bacha]

There are so many topics where those for islamic state and those against argue using all kinds of arguments, dirty ones included. Those who are for, have an ideal islamic state in mind, which exists unfortunately in their minds only, and those against always bring the worst examples forth while there were considerable achievements within islamic civilization. Understanding uselessness of all said, just want to give my own opinion which is: any kind of dispute on this topic is abolutely useless. In a way it is good that different kinds of opinions exist, but on the other hand this dispute has filled up this forum. Any topic can be swithched to this topic if two confronting sides meet.

Disputes over ideology are useless, as two sides are always sure of their being right, while neither has capability to understand of improbability of convincing the other and as such sustaining from further disputation.

I have no will and ability to stop it, accept my apologies for offtop. Continue as you wish, but if a topic turns into one of your fighting grounds, it will not be given my honorable attention :)

[al-quds muslim]

Sounds exactly the way communism was defended. Remember? "It is the corrupt officials and faulty beuracrats who did not strictly obey principles of Marxsism-Leninism".
.
so you think that this was the cause of the leninism destruction???

if you studied the effect of the communist on there peoples(and think that your countries in central asia can give such example), you can see the communist it self have its destruction inside its thoughts(of marxism and leninism), as it lost the people there right of pssession, and that killed economical life, as no enthusiam from the people to work just to let the government take all there production and the person have his ordinary simple wantings , the communist worked in peoples with toughness of law, and the power of the soldier, and see the human as (machine), with no human feelings.

real life also showed that communist was killed by it self, not as what you have mentioned before .


You should understand that people are faulty, people act in their own interest and some people will hurt others to achieve their goals. And you should have a political/economic system that takes that into account. So if someone commits rape in US he will go to prison, there is no doubt about it.

do you see that the american government prison all who wipe?? other way, do you think that the american prison will increase by (7 wipers/minute)???

so that, the american solution in this problem not effecient, as
1- couldnt end wiping
2- couldnt judge all the wipers .


I beleive he is a well-respected man in a fundamental muslim community..
what is your evidence that islamic fundemental comunity respect wipers??? from where you take these false news???:rolleyes:

thank you all very much

[al-quds muslim]

AS-SALAMU ALAIKUM,


For you information, historical and other evidence indicate that Egypt was most developed and prosperous country in the world for thousands of years. But by no means that is an indication that countries today should be run the way Egypt was run.
Delf.
the history of islam, differs the history of old egyptians and other such civilisationes as greeks too much, although all of these civilisations have abig degree in science development, and we must know when the history used as an evidence, and when it is not,

1- about egptians, they built agreat civilisation in buildings, and sciences, but there thoughts were too false, how???

* in the egyptian civilisation, they considered that the farouh is agod and all egptians of the people are his servants, but god never to be ahuman who is born and died as any ordinary servants, and also be (mummified) .

* the farouh rulling was adectatoric reign, and very tough with the people, we can see alot of that ruling cruels in there writings(in heroruglific), as using magic to strengthen faruhs reign, and killing all who neglect the faruh .

and that contradict islamic historical experiment which gave avery nice practical evidences in justice and rightness .

2- another difference is that, about sciences, there are alot of contradict civilizations can have agood scale in that field, for example, both communist, and capitalism, had abig degree of science, does that means that both of them right??? how the civilization and its opposite civilization be right at the same time ?????????

3- about sciences and development builted on science, all civilizations are sharing them, and when comparing ediologies, we copare there thoughts, so that, if you want to compare the islamic civilization, egyptian civilzation, greek civilization, capitalism civilisation, communism civilisation, .... etc, we look to there thoughts, which are too different, although pure sciences in physics, industry, chemistry, technology, ... etc, are the same .

because of all that, we cant say that, if the egyptian civilization had agood history in sciences, we must do as them, but we say,
(because of there false ediology, we cant apply the egyptian method, because of its false ediology in thoughts about universe, humanity, and life )

thank you very much

[al-quds muslim]

also delf,

if you dont take the historical thoughts, and see that we are to think in our modern world, why you see democracy which is an old agreek thought as the thought that we must follow???

why the (free world) not gave us modern thoughts, but want to give us the trhoughts which constructed before 1000's before jesus AS???

why alot who are as you see that islam is old thoughts, and you with thoughts of the old centuries of greeks ??????

why you see that thoughts of old greeks can bear the new world, but islam shareia not ??, and you know that islam come after democracy by thousands of years ????????

also, i want to say for you, your topic (glimpse of hell), cant let us far from shariaa, so that, i see that your try for that is (false)

islamic guard

[al-quds muslim]

There are so many topics where those for islamic state and those against argue using all kinds of arguments, dirty ones included. Those who are for, have an ideal islamic state in mind, which exists unfortunately in their minds only, and those against always bring the worst examples forth while there were considerable achievements within islamic civilization. Understanding uselessness of all said, just want to give my own opinion which is: any kind of dispute on this topic is abolutely useless. In a way it is good that different kinds of opinions exist, but on the other hand this dispute has filled up this forum. Any topic can be swithched to this topic if two confronting sides meet.

Disputes over ideology are useless, as two sides are always sure of their being right, while neither has capability to understand of improbability of convincing the other and as such sustaining from further disputation.

I have no will and ability to stop it, accept my apologies for offtop. Continue as you wish, but if a topic turns into one of your fighting grounds, it will not be given my honorable attention :)

OK MR,

your small wind against islam and islamic state, cant do any thing by the great islamic thoughts, also dear, your way in discussion, not good for you, as it reflects your hate, so that i advise you by another useful way, for you and for us.

islamic state, was areal state, that changed alot in the world, and will do so (NOW), and your neglect for that thing, meaning nothing for us .

also dear, keep in mind, the proverb said, measure before you leap, and i advise you by such proverb, as not be faced by REAL OCASIONS THAT FALSE YOUR CLAIMS .


thank you all,

[tarafdor]

Having 4 wives is also an important part of Islam, but somehow I beleive muslims can practice Islam and have only one wife.

Delf.

First of all this is NOT important part of Islam...you are wrong in this case..let me explain in Uzbek...

Surah Nisa-

With respect to marrying widows, if you are afraid of not being able to maintain justice with her children, marry another woman of your choice or two or three or four (who have no children).
If you cannot maintain equality with more than one wife, marry only one or your slave-girl. This keeps you from acting against justice. (4:3) Pay the women their dowry as though it were a gift. However, if they allow you to keep a part of it as a favor to you, you may spend it with pleasure. (4:4)

Bu oyatning nozil bulishidan bu kunga qadar, gayri muslimlar tomonidan hamma vaqt tanqid ostiga olinadi. Ammo Islomning bunga ruhsat berilishi boshqa shartlarda amalga oshgan. Islomga kura zino haromdur; ushbu holda zinoga olib boradigan yulni yopish kerak. Erkakning kuchli va uziga tinch bulishi yoki naaborot ayolning kuchsiz va istaksiz bulishi, yoki tug'maydigan bulishi, yoki urush va boshqa sabablarga kura erkak soninng kamayishi va ayollarning kupayishi natijasida, erkakning birdan ortiq ayol bilan uylanishi zaruriy bulishi mumkin. Bunaqa hartlarda erkakning birdan ortiq ayol bilan uylanishi BUYRUQ/AMR emas balki bir RUHSATDIR...2chi, 3chi.....ayol ham bunga majbur emasdur. Demak hamma narsa kelishilgan holda qilinadi, yani hech kimning huquqiga qarshi emas. Ayrica bu ruhsat shartsiz, istagancha emas balki adolatga asoslangan holda beriladi, bu adolatga buysuna olmaydiganlarga esa bitta ayol bilan yashashi BUYRULGANDUR.

Surah Al-Azhab-33

Prophet, We have made lawful for you your wives whom you have given their dowry, slave girls whom God has given to you as gifts, the daughters of your uncles and aunts, both paternal and maternal, who have migrated with you.
The believing woman, who has offered herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet may want to marry, will be specially for him, not for other believers. We knew what to make obligatory for them concerning their wives and slave girls so that you would face no hardship (because we have given distinction to you over the believers). God is All-forgiving and All-merciful. (33:50)

Aslida, 4dan ortiq ayol bilan uylanish muborak Payg'ambarimiz Muhammad (saw) ga nozil bulgan oyatdur. Bu surada 4'dan ortiq ayol bilan uylanmaslik aytilganidek, payg'ambarning 4'dan ortiq ayol bilan uylanishiga ruhsat berilgandur. Payg'ambarga hos bulgan bu shartning albatta uziga hos huquqiy, siyosiy a talim bilan bog'liq sabablari bor albatta.

Jud kup rivojlangan davlatlarda, harom yuli bilan har bitta mahallada jazmanlari bor, zino bilan shugulanashadi...lekin bu demokratiyadir..ammo asrlardir Olloh halol qilgan narsaga tosh otishadi...

[Aziz]

You probably misunderstoon me.
What I am saying is that you can practice Islam/Shariah as long as it does not contradict secular laws established in the country.

Four wives is an example where Shariah allows it, but secular law prohibits it. So muslims should not be able to have four wives even if Shariah allows it.


Delf.

subhanallah!!!
you practice Allah's laws in human's conditions!!!
let me ask you a question...does secular laws allow having an affair for a married man???

[Delf]

subhanallah!!!
you practice Allah's laws in human's conditions!!!
let me ask you a question...does secular laws allow having an affair for a married man???
Depends on country. In US, for example, your wife can file a lawsuit against you and live your a*** on the curb. And she will take all your children with her.

And in case she had an affair she won't be stoned do death, don't even dream about that.

And maybe those young women in fundamental countries who were married to elderly man (usually someone important, like mullah) by force and had an affair with another man do not deserve to be stoned to death either.


Delf.

[Delf]

what is your evidence that islamic fundemental comunity respect wipers??? from where you take these false news???:rolleyes:
thank you all very much
From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

That man on the video is a Talibani policeman (Mutaween).

And you can look in here for accuracy of Wikipedia: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4534712.stm

So, this is not false news, the video is real, those women on the screen are indeed being wiped for dressing improperly and yes, they are being wiped by Talibani religious police (Mutaween). It is all occuring in Afghanistan under Taliban rule.

And that's what you are proposing to establish in Uzbekistan.
I beleive many people will strongly disagree with you.


Delf.

[Aziz]

I think you're talking about the movie "Osama"...
anyway...the Islamic law doesn't allow the marriage to be done without the girl's permission.
If the woman is not sexually satisfied with her husband she can go to the court and get divorce. This happened during the Prophet's (pbuh) life. Stoning to death is a punishment for both men and women if they are married and commited zina. This punishment is valid only under stricted condition. Tell me who is the going to be seen by 4 witnesses having sex???
this is one of the conditions of stoning.
I never heared of stoning to death here in Saudi Arabia although the sentences are announced daily on TV.
I said in another thread the story of the companion that came to the Prophet and asked him to be purified by stoniong him but the Prophet ignored him 3 times because he wants him to go and ask forgiveness from Allah. In Islam as long as nobody knows about your sin, and you regret what you did and you ask forgiveness from Allah it will be forgave immediatly.

[Aziz]

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

That man on the video is a Talibani policeman (Mutaween).

And you can look in here for accuracy of Wikipedia: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4534712.stm

So, this is not false news, the video is real, those women on the screen are indeed being wiped for dressing improperly and yes, they are being wiped by Talibani religious police (Mutaween). It is all occuring in Afghanistan under Taliban rule.

And that's what you are proposing to establish in Uzbekistan.
I beleive many people will strongly disagree with you.


Delf.


what Taliban did is not according to the Islamic law....

[al-quds muslim]

if you concluded from a(video) about taliban( IF WE AGREED FIRST ABOUT CLAIMS ON TALIBAN) , that islam support wriping women, can we take the same way as you, and say that democracy wriping women, and see vidios of (ABU GHARIB) as the evidence???!!!:cool:

and know that, wikipedia, not quraan,to take islam from it,

if you see that taliban as an example on islam, from the same point view, america is an example on DEMOCRACY, that you support,see the DEMOCRACY OF AMERICA HERE DEAR,:rolleyes:
AND GET THE UN EXPECTED RESULT,

http://www.statsterror.dk/

ALSO, wekipidia saying the following about taliban,

1- Women were prohibited from getting an education
2- Women were prohibited from getting a job except in healthcare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare)
3- Women were forced to cover up in a burqa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa)
4- The Taliban were also accused of requiring women to stay at home and refusing to give women medical attention.

first of all (mr wikipedia), all those points listed in wikipedia, never to have any relation with islam,how,

1- rasoul allah said (applying science, is [fardh=must] on every muslim and muslimah), so that islam enthusias to educate women.

2- islam give women the right on work, and not only in what mentioned in wikipedia (healthcare)

3- the muslim woman not forced to wear (burqa: the cover of the face), if the muslim woman wants to wear it, she can, if not, not forced .
rasoul allah said (when the woman reach [maheedh], not to show from her body just balm hands, and face) .

4- the fourth point, is already false, as islam see that the muslim man is responsible about the health of all women under his responsibility( as his wife, daughter, .. etc)


DO YOU SEE WEKIPIDIA AS THE (SOURCE OF ISLAM)???, ALL THESE POINTS ARE REJECTED ISLAMICALLY.

ALSO, islam give protection to women, more than any other ediology, so that women become main bases of the islamic society, mother of the society, and the builder of the great family, not aplace for foreign mens fun, or asource of money in bars .

AT LAST, here is the islam truth about the (lie of Wriping women),
rasoul allah said (whole the muslim, is [haram=FORBIDDEN] on the muslim, blood, money, WOMAN), so that, the falses you are saying about islam, not changed by your false wikipedia.

have anice HELL delf, as i dont endure to be in hell places,

ISLAMIC GUARD

[al-quds muslim]

look at your american DEMOCRACY, did TALIBAN did any thing like that????http://www.geocities.com/algerianmusic/asra/abuGhareeb_1.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/algerianmusic/asra/abuGhareeb_12.jpg

[al-quds muslim]

or like thisssss ?????
http://www.geocities.com/algerianmusic/asra/abuGhareeb_21.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/algerianmusic/asra/abuGhareeb_14.jpg

[al-quds muslim]

or like thisss ???????

http://www.geocities.com/algerianmusic/asra/iraq_4.jpg

delf look at these words written by the american soldier,

he is too prowd in,
1- killing men
2- wriping women,

DID YOU SEE ANY GOOD EVIDENCE LIKE THERE DECLARATIONS ??????


OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH, NICE DEMOCRACY, HMM,

ISLAMIC GUARD

[al-quds muslim]

DELF, search about facts, and dont took your own feelings of hate against islam, as islam bigger too tooo much, than what you can imagine .

islamic guard

[al-quds muslim]

http://www.bush2004.com/images/abu_ghraib.jpg

ALSO DELF, if muslims teach there women about healthcare, look how DEMOCRATIC CRIMINALS learn there women on destroying health .

ISLAMIC GUARD

[al-quds muslim]

ALSO LOOK HERE, ABOUT RESPECTING HUMANITY !!!!!

http://www.brandmalaysia.com/movabletype/archives/1084275334148.jpg

LOOK ALSO WHAT THEY TEACH THERE WOMEN !!!!!

http://www.brandmalaysia.com/movabletype/archives/abu_ghraib14.jpg

[al-quds muslim]

delf,

here another picyure, for another DEMOCRATIC FRIEND OF THE UNITED STATES, it is the ISRAELI MOSAD !!!!!!!

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/ny21105091628.iraq_inside_abu_ghraib_prison_ny211. jpg

OOOOOOOOOOOHHH,

LOOK TO THE DEMOCRATIC COOPERATION IN AONE JOINT WORK IN ABU GHRAIB,:shock:

ISLAMIC GUARD

[al-quds muslim]

LOOK THE WHOLE RESPECT FOR HUMANITY, (WITH SHIT) !!!!!

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/new-toture3.jpg

[al-quds muslim]

Listen To Me Deaf Delf, If You Can Listen,


Do U Think That These Criminals, Are Qualified To Teach The World How To Respect Humanity, And Returning Rights ???

If We Are Wanting To Judge America Now, Ohhhhhhh, We Cant Take Others There Rights From America For Acentury ,

Is This The American Democracy ???:rolleyes: :evil:


ISLAMIC GUARD

[al-quds muslim]

Ok Delf,

Did You Searched Your Wikopedia About These Things???


Or Just Use Your Wikopedia Against Islam ???

Ok Delf,all Falses Of Taliban, Did They Reach Just 1% Of These (democratic) Crimes ?????!!!!!!

Islamic Guard

[al-quds muslim]

ALSO AFTER DEATH,

LOOK TO THE SOFT FEMINIE HEARTS,
http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/dead-iraqi1.jpg

[al-quds muslim]

http://www.albasrah.net/images/iraqi-pow/00070B15-4CBB-1093-953F80BFB6FA0000.jpg

THIS IS ANOTHER BRITISH (DFEMOCRATIC GIFT)
KEEP IT IN YOUR MIND

[Ulug'bek]

I think you're talking about the movie "Osama"...
anyway...the Islamic law doesn't allow the marriage to be done without the girl's permission.
If the woman is not sexually satisfied with her husband she can go to the court and get divorce. This happened during the Prophet's (pbuh) life. Stoning to death is a punishment for both men and women if they are married and commited zina. This punishment is valid only under stricted condition. Tell me who is the going to be seen by 4 witnesses having sex???
this is one of the conditions of stoning.
I never heared of stoning to death here in Saudi Arabia although the sentences are announced daily on TV.
I said in another thread the story of the companion that came to the Prophet and asked him to be purified by stoniong him but the Prophet ignored him 3 times because he wants him to go and ask forgiveness from Allah. In Islam as long as nobody knows about your sin, and you regret what you did and you ask forgiveness from Allah it will be forgave immediatly.

Aziz, quite a good reply on this very specific issue. In deed, as far as I remember from my readings, in a very long history of Islam this PUNISHMENT NEVER TOOK PLACE BASED ON ESTABLISHED WITNESS (these four witness/people MUST SEE SEXUAL INTERCOUSE EXPLICITTLY, IT IS NOT ENOUGH EVEN TO SEE A NAKED MAN AND WOMAN LYING TOGETHER ON A BED! almost impossible!), but there were a few cases, when this punishment was practiced based on self-admitting of sertain people!
Then one may say: why Islam has imposed such a 'harsh' punishment with this tough conditions which is very hard to be fulfilled?
The answer which was given by certain scholars was that: Islam wants people refrain from this act by setting up such a hard punishment, but at the same time Islam wants that, this punishment take place ONLY in extraordinary little/rare cases!
However, this is a very marginal issue that doesn't worth much discussion...

Delf if you believe that it is not possible to build a well-governed just society according to Islam where Sharia is the law of the land IT IS ABSOLUTELY OK, BUT LET OTHERS ALSO BELIEVE THE OPPOSITE!

One thing I am sure 100% about is that your knowledge about what islam is IS PRIMITIVE, sorry to say that and the reason for that is very simple: You didn't study it! Whether you admit it or not, your posts say that all the time! If you don't believe me show your posts to any specialist in this field who acqired his knowledge based on western scholarship whom you may trust!
With this level of knowledge about islam, it is neither wise nor fruitful to discuss things related to islam, especially minor details that even many muslims themselves have not efficient knowledge about!
If I were you, I would rather put my efforts on explaining benefits of having a truely democratic state for muslims in uzb. and explaining of other factors in the world today that simply DOESN'T ALLOW MUSLIMS TO HAVE ISLAMIC STATE ADN READY TO DESTROY IT BY A REASON OR WITHOUT, with that you get closer to your goal of having democracy in Uzb.!

Unfortunately, there are many others here who have studied Islam in very restricted or limited (some times in very primitive) way and have upside down of understanding of what Islam/Islamic Shariah is, I have more problems in communicating with them more than those who didn't study it at all, since some of them doesn't recognise some of references/ concepts accepted by all prominant scholars of all islamic madh'habs and groups!

It seems to me that many people here whether offending or defending have no clear understanding of what Sharia and Ijtihad is about, it is also obvious that they don't know what are the purposes of Islamic Laws, the main principles of shariah, the humanly part of islamic jurispuridence and islamic laws, changable and unchangable laws, flexibility of many of them, etc.

If one of them has gorwn in a specific muslim community he/she believes that whatever he or she has seen in his/her community is Islam, especially if the goverment used to claim that it is Islamic. And the other thing is that, it is more difficult for ordinary muslim people to understand that even the specific madh'hab of Islam doesn't represent Islam FULLY ALWAYS and it is possible to have alternatives in many issues EVEN DIFFERENT FROM THE PREVIOUS ONES AS LONG AS THEY SUIT THE ORGINAL PURPOSES OF ISLAM (or the purposes of Shariah behind its regulations)!

So I disagree with Delf and still claim that Islam is the most flexible religion with its own legislation that man kind ever had AND IT IS ABLE TO REGULATE HUMAN LIFE IN THE MOST JUST AND PROSPERING WAY!

However here is one very important thing to be noted! Islam as many other religions is based mainly on holy texts which are Qur'an and Hadith in the case of Islam and those texts ARE UNDERSTOOD AND ITERPRETED BY HUMANS. Although the basics of Islam which are repeatedly expressed in these holy texts are the same in all views and these things contitute UNCHANGABLE PART ISLAM, THERE ARE many other concepts, regulations, etc. that are understood in different ways and maybe changable with the change in variables....
From here, comes different understandings of certain parts of Qur'anic verses and Prophetic sayings and from here we have different islamic streams... Although most famous schools of Islam have much much in common than differences, some small newly emerging (or that have emerged in the last 150 years) 'islamic' groups may have quite different views in major issues that may produce Taliban-type of understanding of Islam!
Aziz, although I do almost completly disagree with the way Taliban suggested for implementation of Islam into real life, you can't disattach them from islam! Talibani understanding of Islam was (is?) a very primitive way of understanding what Islam wants from people TODAY! THEY SIMPLY DIDN'T REALISE THAT IT IS ONLY PURPOSES OF SHARIAH LAWS , ITS MAIN PRINCIPLES AND CONCEPTS THAT DON'T CHANGE AND THE MOST OF THE REST IF CHANGABLE AND FLEXIBLE! Actually they didn't have 'Islamic Life THEN and Islamic Life TOADY!' in their dictionary at all!
Taliban being born today wanted to live at least 7-8 centuries ago (although I personally I would have disagreed with them even if i would have been born then too)!
And there are some other islamic groups who wants live in the past of a century ago, some others who wants to live in the past of 50 years back, actually they have followed a group that emerged in that period of the history as a way of islamic responce to a specific challenge in a specific time (which might be righ for its time, by the way!) BUT THEN THEY were not able to coup with time, sticking to surface and not to the purposes!

Unfortunately, muslims/islamists of Uzbekistan TODAY are not excepted from this phenomenon, as all those gropus 'have already got their shares' among uzbek muslim population upon the collapse of Soviet Union and they are preparing to attempt to establish of 'their islam' in Uzbekistan today!

Saying all that, I believe that TODAY, it is not the right time for establishment any kind of islamic state in Uzbekistan. And the best thing muslims in uzbekistan could get TOADY and wish for is a truely established democratic government/system. That is simply because the world being globalized and Uzbekistan becoming a village of it, with superpowers demolishing concept of soverignity of other small states, with all of these any established Islamic State in Uzbekistan can not survive more than a few years, if not a few months, not talking about the fact that those islamists themselves are not prepared to run an Islamic State, forget about illetracy of the public Islamically !

The establishment of democratic system in Uzbekistan is only way of out of crises in uzb. and necessary for the benefit of all uzbekistanis, including the islamists/muslims (me too), because the truly established democracy will educate islamists politically and teach them how to live TODAY, as the time passes they will realise how adjust their understanding of Islam to the reformatic understanding of Islam that is quite close to the democracy. When muslims of Uzbekistan reach this level of understanding of Islam and democracy (in about 50-60 years?) and the whole nation is developed materially and morally, ONLY THEN THEY ARE PREPARED TO ESTABLISH AN ISLAMIC STATE (whereby it might be accepted by the world community, as islamists in Turkey today were accepted to RUN A DEMORCRATIC STATE, of-course not an islamic state)!
Any other early attempts of establshing it will reslut in a big failure and will harm muslims themselves very much before others!
I assume that some people will even don't understand me now and I also am aware of who will oppose me among islamic and non-islamic circles, but anyway, this is my opinon which I have formed upon spending quite some time studying these things and of-course there are other muslim scholars and thinkers who share the same or similar view too.
Everybody is of-course free to involve in discussing of whatever topic they may want, but I just wished that those who defend Islam and even those who offend it were able to differenciate what is primary issue and what is not, so that much time could be saved and much could be achieved!

ps. I don't even know if this thread worth this much attention, effort, time and discussion att all:rolleyes: .

[Delf]

I wonder how come Al -Quds posts 13 messages in a row and gets away with it on this board? No warning for flood? No warning for offtop?

Al-quds, I never condoned what is happening in Abu Graib or Gitmo.
If I were saying that current US administration are angels, you could put those pictures up, but I never did. In fact, many know how much respect Mr. Bush & Co gets from me.

So, please don't go offtop. We were discussing Taliban and how they run Afghanistan, if you remember.

Let me state again, that Talibani policeman is wiping those women. And this is done during daytime on the street and everyone can see it.

And I will tell you again: people of Uzbekistan don't want what you are proposing. They don't want to turn Uzbekistan into fundamentalist backward country. They want freedom, progress, prosperity and peace. They want to have right to determine their destiny without bearded mullahs forcing them to do things only those mullahs think is right.

And yes, they can practice their religion and be good muslims without people like you. And be happy about it.


Delf.
P.S. if you want to know more about Abu Ghraib atrocities, you can find more information on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

[al-quds muslim]

I wonder how come Al -Quds posts 13 messages in a row and gets away with it on this board? No warning for flood? No warning for offtop?
DELF, you are the main offtop here, from the beginnning about islamic shareiaa. why?? if you were (democratic), you must be subjective, look for the side and the other side, but you do the contrary, looked just for taliban, and neglect america, is that the democracy?? or use it also as ahide same as america???

delf, i dont give any information here from my pocket, all these are the true terror of america hided by (DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS), WHICH MEANS ACHEIVING AMERICAN GOALS PY PUNNISHMENT WITH UN HUMAN, AND UN ACCEPTED MORALS OF ALL HUMAN MORALS AND LAWS .

IAM NOT A(LAWYER) ABOUT TALIBAN, BUT THE RIGHT WORDS MUST BE SAID, ALL THE WORLD FOCUSED ON TALIBAN, AND NEGLECT AMERICAN CRIMES, WHY ??, IS THAT BECAUSE NO ONE CAN OPEN HIS TONGUE TOWARDS AMERICA, BUT TALIBAN ALL SAW THEM AS (CRIMINALS), WHY???

IF YOU WANT TO JUDGE, JUDGE ALL, OR KEEP SILENT TOWARDS ALL.

AND ALSO, I DONT WORK IN TALIBAN, AND ALSO NOT BY ITS WAY, BUT,I WANT TO SAY FOR YOU, IF YOU LOOK FOR TALIBAN AS THE WAY FROM WHICH YOU WANT TO HIT ISLAM, LOOK AT THE CRIMES OF THE MASTER OF DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD .


Al-quds, I never condoned what is happening in Abu Graib or Gitmo.
If I were saying that current US administration are angels, you could put those pictures up, but I never did. In fact, many know how much respect Mr. Bush & Co gets from me.
I WANT TO SAY FOR YOU, ALL THE WORLD KNOW AMERICA AND BUSH WELL, AND KNOW ALOT ABOUT THEM, AND I SEE THAT, ALL KNOW THAT DEMOCRACY, NOT MORE THAN ACOVER FOR AMERICA TO HIDE ITS UGLY CRIMINAL FACE BEHIND IT

So, please don't go offtop. We were discussing Taliban and how they run Afghanistan, if you remember.
i say these words for you, as you from the biginning, work against islamic shareia, and against islam by all its types and kinds, by avery strange way, and very offtopping posts.

Let me state again, that Talibani policeman is wiping those women. And this is done during daytime on the street and everyone can see it.
ooohhh , these are falses clarified for you before, look at my previous posts .and also,
1- taliban may dont know islam well, and i clarified islam openion on those things
2- taliban if falsed(as i dont agree about that yet, as no evidence), do you agree that human criminals who will judge them??

3- if you want to judge who do some falses against women in aworld by armor fighting against afghanistan, what must be about the criminal who made all bad punnishment in abu-ghraib, guanatanamow, alfallujah, .. ....................and and and ???? or these crimes are (no thing)????!!!

And I will tell you again: people of Uzbekistan don't want what you are proposing. They don't want to turn Uzbekistan into fundamentalist backward country. They want freedom, progress, prosperity and peace. They want to have right to determine their destiny without bearded mullahs forcing them to do things only those mullahs think is right.
you still continuing your off top, but ok, i will reply you,

1- people of uzbekistan, dont want the rule of the dectator karimov

2- people of uzbekistan dont want american bases, so they make ahappy day when american forces gone out from (khan abad) air base

3- people of uzbekistan, have there islam, killed to stop the hard conditions that there people existed in, by establishing the islamic way of justice, which is too far from your false examples .

4- i dont want to say any more, as am not aspeaker by the uzbek people, but i stand with them as brothers, that they neglect crimes of america, and suchj countries, and wants to change there present to agood civilized future, by there great right islam, which is too far from your false imagination about islam .

5- be sure, that the justice islam of uzbekistan, will stand against the criminal state, which made international crimes in prisons, and other places, and dont want to make such backward baraic state.

And yes, they can practice their religion and be good muslims without people like you. And be happy about it.

they will be more happy, if you took your false posts from here, as they dont take there acceptance to make islam or not, from you or any other sides, they are the keeper of there openions in making there islam, and i think, the ir-religious ones, must keep them selves out from islam, that is better for THEM.

P.S. if you want to know more about Abu Ghraib atrocities, you can find more information on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse)
american crimes are known by every one, as there crime news are every where, no need for wikipedia in that point

ISLAMIC GUARD