Uzbekistan - Islam

[vatanparvar]

Hi Guys,

Thank you very much for your answers to the question on the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. although, it slipped to Secularism and religion. Nevertheless, the opinions are fabulous.

So, why not discuss the issue of secularism specifically. How popular secularism is in Uzbekistan? Does decision of the Uzbek people in 1991 to build a secular state correspond to the decision of Uzbeks today? Does the majority of Uzbeks want to have an Islamic State? Do we want to live like Afghanistan or Tajikistan?

Well, that's qustionable because Uzbeks (Uzbekistanies) beyond the borders of Tashkent city already live like in Afghanistan and Tajikistan economically and moreover they get oppressed by the government for practicing Islam, which is viewed as a measure of last resort. What else can they do: no jobs, no money, no perspectives for the future?

On the other hand, this kind of a situation is very easy to use, if you want to distabilize Uzb-n. People will believe in anything, since they have already seen that 10 years of ruling of the present government has only impoverished them and built couple of fancy buildings in Tashkent.

So, what do you think guys? Do Uzbekistanies want an Islamic State? (Moreover, most of the "legal" democratic institutions existing in Uzbekistan are puppets of the Governemnt)

Do you think the the present situation is something that could be compared to the pre-revolution Iran, as some of the mass media has porposed?

Thank you very much for your opinions in advance.

Sincerely,

Vatanparvar

p.s. Why I use anonymizer? B/c you can speak more openly with it and be sure that you don't get traced. Also, if you have noticed I raise issues that are current and very important for the viability of the statehood in Uzbekistan.

[Kho'ja Nasriddin]

Hello to all,

Well, I personally think that Islamic government (or rather ‘society’ based on Islamic laws, rather than ‘state’ in its Western interpretation) has always been and still is a need and must for any society. In Khumaini’s words ‘Because Islam is immortal, it must be implemented and observed forever’.

What do our people want? What are our self-interests (desires) in contrast to what are the interests of the self, that many of us might not be aware of? In other words, people may desire whatever they want, be it material well-being, unlimited freedom, and so on, but if they fail in their duties and obligations in this life, then…That’s why, whether people want/need it or not, Islam must be implemented and observed. And Islamic government shouldn’t be stereotyped in and easily identified with the examples from Afghanistan, Tajikistan or any other country, bearing in mind the fact that these states (including Uzbekistan) as well as their titular nationalities are in much the creations of external powers, which further doubts their current existence. When most of us remind others of our great history and name our great ancestors, how many of us can realise the fact that the most brilliant civilisation of the medieval period was the product of a religion called Islam. But look what’s happening now, how our politicians are justifying their actions against their Muslim citizens. Whenever they are criticised for putting pressure on Muslims (in fact not only on them) they will immediately remind you how they had restored some religious sites in Uzbekistan, much in the same way as Amir Temur boasted of his buildings in his time. The question is what is the point of having those religious buildings restrored if you can’t profess your religion freely in your country, not mentioning of re-implementation of Islamic laws.

I personally think that it is far better to build an Islamic society and government from bottom-up, rather than from top-down as in Iranian or Afghan cases. The true Islamic education and awareness should play key roles in this process, otherwise you could end up with another ‘fundamentalist’ or ‘radical’ hot-spot in our region. I believe there is no appropriate system of governing in the world that suits best our as well as other peoples as an Islamic one. Because no other system can cure such problems in our society as corruption, nepotism, regionalism, malditribution, poverty, lack of political participation and freedom, etc. To skeptics I would suggest to look at the theoretical foundations of Islamic government, which has been considered as being an ideal type of government in the works of Farobi and Ibn Sino. If it had worked once in practice, during the time of our Prophet and the first four Caliphs, why shouldn’t it work now? I know some of you are obsessed with or admire such non-Islamic concepts as democracy, liberalism, human rights, and capitalism. That’s all fine as long as you know well to whose profit the current world order is working. I would not believe any of you arguing that US or IMF wants to help us. Anyway, my suggestion to you all is to move beyond your intellectual or ideological confinements and study Islam earnestly, as it is the only place where you find answers to many of today’s problems.

With regards.

[umid]

Nasriddin,

You say that Islamic state worked during the first califs and Farobiy and Ibn-Sino justified the advantages of an Islamic state. Well, that sounds nice, but when was that 7 - 11 centuries. A millennium ago!!!

Given your logical thread all that happened with humanity ever since does not count and we should implement the achievements a milennium outdated??? Sorry man, if this is the case for Uzbekistan, I will be the first LEAVE the country.

Can't you just understand that to be successful today, according to the today's standards, your action should also correspond to an action by today's standards: "Be Roman in Rome".

Of course, that is another issue whether Uzbeks want to live like in the West or they want to live like in Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Tajikistan and a myriad of other Islamic states, which are in fact much more corruped than others?

But Nasriddin, thank you and I would apologize if you find the language harsh.

Sincerely,

Umid-jon

[Aldar+Kose]

A ne kajetsya li tebe Afandi, chto ti nachal navyazivat' novuyu, to yest' uje davno staruyu, pochti perejivshuyu sebya moral'. Opyat' ti lezesh' so svoim vzglyadom na mir, chto doljen delat' chelovak i chto net. Opyat' ti budesh uchit' ludey chto pravil'no i chto net tak uj.

Ti schitayesh sebya pravednim tak kak verish v religiyu a v ney vnushayetsya chto religiya - eto horosho, a ne religiya - eto ploho. Hvatit uje uchit' zdes' vseh. Kak ti i tebe podobniye ne poymyote uje chto bespolezni vashi nravoucheniya, ustareli.

Nichego ne imeyu protiv Islama i drugih religiy, no kak tol'ko kto-to nachinayet uchit' kak nado jit' i prakticheski "ochernyayet" teh, kto dumayet i deystvuyet inache u menya zla ne hvatayet na nih.
Ver' i poklonyaysya bogu (if that's what makes you happy) nikto tebya ne trogayet, nikto tebe ne budet meshat' poka ti sam ne nachnesh' vmeshivatsya v dela i lichniy vibor drugih. Elementarnaya logica: Ne meshay drugim i nikto ne budet meshat' tebe.

Ya uveren z Uzbekistane presleduyut islamistov ne za to chto oni veryat v Boga a za to chto oni hotyat chego to bol'shego.
Sami vinovati. Doigralis'!

[Kho'ja+Nasriddin]

To Umid,

How old are democracy and fascism? Which one is much older, yet is still much widely practiced than the other (much younger) one? Would you leave your country first just because democracy is a political idea dating as back as to the Ancient Greece?

‘When in Rome do as the Romans do’, but where is this Rome and who are the Romans? If by Rome and the Romans you mean the West and the Westerners, then why are we supposed to be on their soil and why should we behave like them? Supposing we are in Rome, then are those Romans always right? Maybe the Romans have bad habits too! Do Romans themselves always behave like Romans? Maybe the Romans don't want us to be like them!

Finally, what counts more, quantity or quality? Ignorant majority or learned minority? And why Uzbeks should decide, why not Uzbekistanis?

To Aldar-kosoy,

“…ti nachal navyazivat' novuyu, to yest' uje davno staruyu, pochti perejivshuyu sebya moral'.”, refer to my argument above on unconstrained nature of ideas from the Time

“Opyat' ti lezesh' so svoim vzglyadom na mir, chto doljen delat' chelovak i chto net. Opyat' ti budesh uchit' ludey chto pravil'no i chto net tak uj.” Why not? Why don’t you question the authority of current state and interstate laws, which also instruct you what you should do and what you shouldn’t?

“Ti schitayesh sebya pravednim tak kak verish v religiyu a v ney vnushayetsya chto religiya - eto horosho, a ne religiya - eto ploho. Hvatit uje uchit' zdes' vseh. Kak ti i tebe podobniye ne poymyote uje chto bespolezni vashi nravoucheniya, ustareli.” I will leave this point to your own conscience and God’s judgement.

“Nichego ne imeyu protiv Islama i drugih religiy, no kak tol'ko kto-to nachinayet uchit' kak nado jit' i prakticheski "ochernyayet" teh, kto dumayet i deystvuyet inache u menya zla ne hvatayet na nih.” Why do you hate someone who wants to teach you? Shouldn’t people teach and learn from each other? Isn’t life about learning and in due course teaching? Were you born with all your present faculties, or was it the result of some educational process?

“Ver' i poklonyaysya bogu (if that's what makes you happy) nikto tebya ne trogayet, nikto tebe ne budet meshat' poka ti sam ne nachnesh' vmeshivatsya v dela i lichniy vibor drugih. Elementarnaya logica: Ne meshay drugim i nikto ne budet meshat' tebe.” What is the guarantee for this non-interference? What if this non-interference violated? How do you define the non-interference into others’ problems?

“Ya uveren z Uzbekistane presleduyut islamistov ne za to chto oni veryat v Boga a za to chto oni hotyat chego to bol'shego. Sami vinovati. Doigralis'!” How can you ever be sure to be right, if you don’t consider others to be so (because you don't want to be taught)? In that case, why shouldn't you be wrong if others analogously consider you to be so?

Regards.

[muslim]

Ok, so Democracy and republicanism was also practiced over 2000 years ago in Greece and Rome. None of the Europeans argued whether it was outdated or old!

How the heck can you guys be so quick to judge Islam as not compatible with todays society? Look within yourselves first before eagerly emulating others.

I mean especially since many (including me sometimes) go "Oh Turks" this and "Oh Uzbeks" this and "Oh we had such great warriors and thinkers" this. Well, learn from them, instead of just putting them on showcases and pedestals.

Islamic society was NOT a failed society. It lasted pretty damn long time if you ask me. And more fruitful. And PRO-learning. Instead of completely abandoning the Islamic system, you should study where we went wrong and correct that mistake and implement it again!

Nowadays many western writers are praising Islam and its government system. I have heard of economists praising the Islamic Banking System. I can't believe people who come from a place that once took part in that wonderful, culturally-stimulating heritage are now simply tossing it aside.

[al-quds muslim]

salamu alaikum,

in this world, there are alot of ways to work for development and organize systems, to rule by any of them, aproceeded study must be done for every of them, and by the right way , to choose the right system and right thoughts, but as astudent of such organizing systems, the one which prooved his effectiveness was islam, not democracy, nor secularism, nor capitalism, and nor democracy .

islam proved his strongness in development the weak, less educated, poor, and less developed peoples, and made them to be leaders of the world, by avery effective way, and let all others in justice and in avery high civilized way, which non saw before, we must know that , islam is not just praying and worshippping, these are just branches from islam, and islam is the whole system, islam govern society, govern internal and external policies of individuals and groopes, organize relationship between groupes and individuals, inside and outside the society, so that, islam must be now re-studied , why to look for outern systems to organize, if we have the most effective system ever known ?????,

allah said in koraan (AND ALLAH SEND THE BOOK [KORAAN] , TO CLEAR AND SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM EVER KNOWN, AND ALSO GUIDANCE ,MERCY FULL, FOR BELEIVERS ) .

after studying every system, islam was the only successful way in life, neither any other system, but the mistake is, how to realise the real irders islam is wanting us to perform, that is the right question.

thank u very much,