Suicide Bombing: Is it permitted or not? [Archive] - Uzbekistan Online Forum

Akhee-Abdullah

06-28-2005, 04:30 PM

absolutely do not agree with this "fatawa".

This form of fight is the scariest for any enemy.
On the other hand, it is highly efficient from military point of view.
Think, when a general plans attack on enemy firstly comes attack itself, and then retreat with minimum losses.

However, the idea of a soldier not even planning to return solves the second problem. That is a mightmare for enemy.

Imagine a case:

20 X freedom fighters are planning next target: Y enemy convoy.

Estimated kill: 20 Y soldiers (all).

Estimated losses among X: 7 soldiers.
(because they hide and suddenly attack, they have fewer losses).

Now, imagine 1 soldier says, I will go all by myself in bomb-laden car, blow up those 20 Y soldiers. He's a true hero. He not only kills 20 Y enemy soldiers, but also saves lives of at least 6 of his comrades!

So, if all X 20 soldiers went to fight Y soldiers, and lost 7 X, in process of eliminating 20 - they are heros....then why not just 1 suicide bomber doing the same job not a hero?

And don't tell me the hadith about suicide. It is used in a wrong place.
Suicide car bomber is taking with him enemy soldiers, that's A BIG difference. Therefore that super fatawa is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, MISTAKEN, and WRONG.

Soldier, any soldier expects to die. Death is a fact of war.
The idea is to cause most damage to enemy with minimum losses.
That is the art of war.

FYI, I think the above explains the reason why USA used NUKES to subdue Japan - Japan had so many fearless suicide pilots ready to take a whole ship or submarine-full of enemy with them to other world, that USA had no chances of winning...

Last but not least those ruling/fatwa sites are often set up to mislead people, confuse them...you know by whom...

selavi, monami.

mr

Chicagoan - you arguments are as lame as you are. Fighting back for your rights is not prohibited, none is saying that. However, taking your life with the explosives attached to your body in the middle of civlians and enemy combatants is prohibited. The way they do those actions is prohibited. There is nothing tactical about it, you do not have to commit suicide to reach the military goals, especially not in the case of greatest of all ibadahs/worships Jihaad, you cannot do Jihaad by disobeying the Sharia rulings regarding the Jihaad.

If one were to use your analogies, we need to take riba, and establish riba based institutions the way the Kuffar have set up so that we can build stornger military with the riba based funds we generate. Well, it brings greater good, does not it??

Or may be we should rob people first and pay Zakah with those funds, take bribe and get our kids educated?? You can never good through evil means, it is haram akhee. Let people of knowledge, the Mashaikh to make fatawa and listen to whatever they order in whatever is good and stay away whatever is evil they have warned us against from.

Black

06-28-2005, 11:00 PM

Chicagoan - you arguments are as lame as you are. Fighting back for your rights is not prohibited, none is saying that. However, taking your life with the explosives attached to your body in the middle of civlians and enemy combatants is prohibited. The way they do those actions is prohibited. There is nothing tactical about it, you do not have to commit suicide to reach the military goals, especially not in the case of greatest of all ibadahs/worships Jihaad, you cannot do Jihaad by disobeying the Sharia rulings regarding the Jihaad.

If one were to use your analogies, we need to take riba, and establish riba based institutions the way the Kuffar have set up so that we can build stornger military with the riba based funds we generate. Well, it brings greater good, does not it??

Or may be we should rob people first and pay Zakah with those funds, take bribe and get our kids educated?? You can never good through evil means, it is haram akhee. Let people of knowledge, the Mashaikh to make fatawa and listen to whatever they order in whatever is good and stay away whatever is evil they have warned us against from.

100% agree!

chicagoan -- Islom bu matematika emas, "suicide qilib 20 ta dushmanni o'ldiradi wa 10 ta odamni hayotini saqlab qoladi" degan gaplarni aytishga. Sizga maslahatim oz moz bo'lsa ham aqida masalalari bilan tanishib chiqing. O'zingiz bergan hulosalar esa faqat falsafa (filosofiya)dan boshqa narsa emas, birorta ham hadis yoki oyatni keltirmagansiz.

chicagoan

06-29-2005, 03:09 AM

Chicagoan - you arguments are as lame as you are. Fighting back for your rights is not prohibited, none is saying that. However, taking your life with the explosives attached to your body in the middle of civlians and enemy combatants is prohibited. The way they do those actions is prohibited. There is nothing tactical about it, you do not have to commit suicide to reach the military goals, especially not in the case of greatest of all ibadahs/worships Jihaad, you cannot do Jihaad by disobeying the Sharia rulings regarding the Jihaad.

If one were to use your analogies, we need to take riba, and establish riba based institutions the way the Kuffar have set up so that we can build stornger military with the riba based funds we generate. Well, it brings greater good, does not it??

Or may be we should rob people first and pay Zakah with those funds, take bribe and get our kids educated?? You can never good through evil means, it is haram akhee. Let people of knowledge, the Mashaikh to make fatawa and listen to whatever they order in whatever is good and stay away whatever is evil they have warned us against from.

bay, bay,
akhee, don't get too personal.
There's a Hadith that the Prophet pbuh said that "you know better your worldly things."

Military action is worldly things, and freedom fighters in Iraq are doing very well in fighting an enemy with non-standard means and methods.

Again, re-read my previous post, all your hadithes r irrelevant.

I spoke about killing enemy soldiers through suicide operations.

as for killings of civilians, most of the time they r civilians serving KUFFAR, or enrolling to their army, besides often Americans detonate bombs remotely to disgrace jihadists...

wassalam.

seems like most of you have to grow up to understand what I mean....

Akhee-Abdullah

06-29-2005, 09:02 AM

bay, bay,
akhee, don't get too personal.
There's a Hadith that the Prophet pbuh said that "you know better your worldly things."

Military action is worldly things, and freedom fighters in Iraq are doing very well in fighting an enemy with non-standard means and methods.

Again, re-read my previous post, all your hadithes r irrelevant.

I spoke about killing enemy soldiers through suicide operations.

as for killings of civilians, most of the time they r civilians serving KUFFAR, or enrolling to their army, besides often Americans detonate bombs remotely to disgrace jihadists...

wassalam.

seems like most of you have to grow up to understand what I mean....

Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullahi,

Awfan ya akhee, my bet, I apologize for being rude. Please read the following posts, insha'Allah you will change your stance, Barakallhu feekum akhee you have the zeal to speak up and the desire to help the Ummah. Let's make sincere dua to the mujaheedeen "fi kulli makan" so that they be vicotirious over the Kuffar. Also, akhee, it is not winning the war or battle that matters. It is the intention and the method you do things that matter. Naam, akhee we do want to see the results in this world, however, hereafter is better in terms of rewards insha'Allah. One example, we do not have to win the war or battle to become shaheed, rather fighting honorably in the best manner, ya'ni prescribed the way by Muhammad sal'Allahu alayhiwassalam prescribed, will help us attain shahada.

The hadeeth you mentioned was regarding the pollenating the dates in summer time to achieve larger harvest in the Fall. People of Madina asked Muhammad sal'Allahu alayhiwassalam if it was ok for them to pollenate the date trees. Muhammad sal'Allahu alayhiwassalam did not allow them to do so, that year harvest was not good. The next year Ansar asked again if it was ok for them to pollenate the trees since the harvest was very bad previous year at that time Muhammad sal'Allahu alayhiwassalam said what you said, approximately in meaning. Full text of the hadeeth is here...

Rafi' b. Khadij reported that Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) came to Medina and the people had been grafting the trees. He said: What are you doing? They said: We are grafting them, whereupon he said: It may perhaps be good for you if you do not do that, so they abandoned this practice (and the date-palms) began to yield less fruit. They made a mention of it (to the Prophet), whereupon he said: I am a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining to religion, do accept it, and when I command you about a thing out of my personal opinion, keep it in mind that I am a human being. 'Ikrima reported that he said something like this.(Muslim,# 5831)

So akhee, Jihaad is a matter of religion not an only "dunyawi" thing, it is a worhsip, it is an ibadah, how can we screw around ibadah with our lame opinions and arguments???!!

Benficial posts, insha'Allah:

:info:Suicide Bombing Issue-Clarified. (http://www.forum.uz/showthread.php?t=18579):info:

:info:Jihaad: The Misconceptions Cleared (http://www.forum.uz/showthread.php?t=17589):info:

:info:"Filisteen"-Jihaad? (http://www.forum.uz/showthread.php?t=18798):info:

:info:The Cancer Of Terrorism (http://www.forum.uz/showthread.php?t=18863):info:

Joha

06-30-2005, 06:30 PM

Assalamu Alaykum

Brothers you have raised a very delicate issue in Islam. It is hard to come to single judgment as both sides has its own proofs. One point is that of going to Jihad against occupation force with superior and mighty power, which people judge as a suicide as enemy possess superior weapon and technology. The other point is that of Killing yourself intentionally, meaning that the action you are going to commit will bring a death, which is counted as suicide. I suppose (my wife just whispered to me) that it all depends on Niyat, place and conditons. As our Prophet saws has forbidden to cut any trees when in war but he himself later ordered to cut all trees in Taif! Because the people of Taif said that they have a lot of Palm date trees hence that is enough food for them to carry out Partisan attacks on Muslims. And if we remember the Hadith of Rasulullah saws about Moses (pbuh) and Hidhr (pbuh) when Hidhr (pbuh) killed a young boy? Well there are some things we do commit and which might look like as horrible but it all goes again back to Niyat. I think it is hard to come to a certain decision about the above issue without an Ijma of Islamic Scholars which is quite rare nowadays. For the best of my knowledge I would have tried to avoid Suicide Bombing for the fear of transgressing the order of Allah not to harm oneself, but I would not stop for a minute to carry out the action myself one I have been prooved that doing so will lead the way to the Pleasure and Satisfaction of Allah.

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. (The Noble Quran, 9:111)"

And Allahu swt knows the best.

Assalamu Alaykum

chicagoan

06-30-2005, 08:32 PM

...as a military commander i'd rather have 100 suicidal soldiers, than 10.000 so-so soldiers.

anybody disagree?

mr

stanford

06-30-2005, 11:08 PM

How is it possible that a group of people which does not even have the right to award punishment to a criminals should be given the right to wage war?

What a Fasaad, Shame.Those are solely individualized acts that do not have a positive consequential result that is benefiting to the Islamic world.

Akhee Abdulla thanks for your contribution in this discussion board,for helping to a better understanding of Islamic Regulations.

absolutely do not agree with this "fatawa".

This form of fight is the scariest for any enemy.
On the other hand, it is highly efficient from military point of view.
Think, when a general plans attack on enemy firstly comes attack itself, and then retreat with minimum losses.

However, the idea of a soldier not even planning to return solves the second problem. That is a mightmare for enemy.

Imagine a case:

20 X freedom fighters are planning next target: Y enemy convoy.

Estimated kill: 20 Y soldiers (all).

Estimated losses among X: 7 soldiers.
(because they hide and suddenly attack, they have fewer losses).

Now, imagine 1 soldier says, I will go all by myself in bomb-laden car, blow up those 20 Y soldiers. He's a true hero. He not only kills 20 Y enemy soldiers, but also saves lives of at least 6 of his comrades!

So, if all X 20 soldiers went to fight Y soldiers, and lost 7 X, in process of eliminating 20 - they are heros....then why not just 1 suicide bomber doing the same job not a hero?

And don't tell me the hadith about suicide. It is used in a wrong place.
Suicide car bomber is taking with him enemy soldiers, that's A BIG difference. Therefore that super fatawa is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, MISTAKEN, and WRONG.

Soldier, any soldier expects to die. Death is a fact of war.
The idea is to cause most damage to enemy with minimum losses.
That is the art of war.

FYI, I think the above explains the reason why USA used NUKES to subdue Japan - Japan had so many fearless suicide pilots ready to take a whole ship or submarine-full of enemy with them to other world, that USA had no chances of winning...

Last but not least those ruling/fatwa sites are often set up to mislead people, confuse them...you know by whom...

selavi, monami.

mr

Black

07-01-2005, 12:05 AM

...as a military commander i'd rather have 100 suicidal soldiers, than 10.000 so-so soldiers.

anybody disagree?

mr

It seems that you worship to war god not true God, because only thing you care is the result in this world. (In fact suicide bomibing can give "good" results only in short terms, but in long term it is useless.)
It is better to gather all those "suiciders" and teach them some knowledge (of religion and science) so that they could give more fruitfull results in the future.
Let me explain you other way. Couple of years ago two British muslims went to Isreal and one of them blowed up himself killing 2 or 3 Isrealies who were not even military people, they were just ordinary people who were on the pub or cafe. So what is the result? We don't know even whom he have killed, may be they were muslims, even not muslims they could be people who oppose the current zionist regime of Isreal. Let's imagine they were 5 and all were military men. If that British muslim had studied some usefull knowledge and create some new weapon which would have much more effect than killing merely 3 people, or become good fighter and kill many more Isrealy troops by doing partisan war. This is just examples. Remember life muslim is better than dead muslim.
And you short term results give nothing but only losses to muslims in this life and in the Hereafter.
Think rational, not like a kid.

P.S. As for the second British muslim who went to Isreal his body was found in the beach, he could not blow up himself. So what is the result 2 muslims for 3 Isrealies, whom we don't know who they were. Is that you prefer?

Black

07-01-2005, 12:09 AM

...as a military commander i'd rather have 100 suicidal soldiers, than 10.000 so-so soldiers.

anybody disagree?

mr

... as a military commander i'd rather have 100 good trained soldiers than 10.000 so-so suicidal soldiers.

anybody disagree?

Hamid

07-01-2005, 02:47 AM

absolutely do not agree with this "fatawa".

This form of fight is the scariest for any enemy.
On the other hand, it is highly efficient from military point of view.
Think, when a general plans attack on enemy firstly comes attack itself, and then retreat with minimum losses.

However, the idea of a soldier not even planning to return solves the second problem. That is a mightmare for enemy.

Imagine a case:

20 X freedom fighters are planning next target: Y enemy convoy.

Estimated kill: 20 Y soldiers (all).

Estimated losses among X: 7 soldiers.
(because they hide and suddenly attack, they have fewer losses).

Now, imagine 1 soldier says, I will go all by myself in bomb-laden car, blow up those 20 Y soldiers. He's a true hero. He not only kills 20 Y enemy soldiers, but also saves lives of at least 6 of his comrades!

So, if all X 20 soldiers went to fight Y soldiers, and lost 7 X, in process of eliminating 20 - they are heros....then why not just 1 suicide bomber doing the same job not a hero?

And don't tell me the hadith about suicide. It is used in a wrong place.
Suicide car bomber is taking with him enemy soldiers, that's A BIG difference. Therefore that super fatawa is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, MISTAKEN, and WRONG.

Soldier, any soldier expects to die. Death is a fact of war.
The idea is to cause most damage to enemy with minimum losses.
That is the art of war.

FYI, I think the above explains the reason why USA used NUKES to subdue Japan - Japan had so many fearless suicide pilots ready to take a whole ship or submarine-full of enemy with them to other world, that USA had no chances of winning...

Last but not least those ruling/fatwa sites are often set up to mislead people, confuse them...you know by whom...

selavi, monami.

mr
chicagoan here you are talking about probabilities, so nobody knows how many people will stay alive after teh operation. if the muslims are organised with the help of Allah they might not lose anybody, and still kill all the enemy soldiers. But in suicide one person who is blowing himself up is definetely going to die, so at the end the probability of somebody to die is higher when suicide bomb is used, that is another reason why we should not use suicide bombers.
Black, there is a hadith, a muslim army of 10000 should be the best in the world and nobody will be able to win them (true muslims).
I pray I will be one of these soldiers.
hh

Akhee-Abdullah

07-06-2005, 10:46 PM

:info:Beneficial Articles regarding this topic:info:

The Advice of Imaam Ibn Baaz to Usaamah Bin Ladin (http://www.spubs.com/sps/downloads/pdf/GSC020003.pdf)

The Mufti of Saudi Arabia on the New York Attacks (9-11) (http://www.spubs.com/sps/downloads/pdf/CAF020015.pdf)

Debating the Concepts of the Jamaa'at at-Takfeer, "Bin Laden"ers (http://www.al-ibaanah.com/cms/pdf_files/54.pdf?PHPSESSID=13a74bf6b8c34865474024a38fc985fb)

:info:Audio/Arabic lecture translated live into English:info:

The True Islaamic stance towards the US attacks on Sept. 11th by al-’Allaamah Saalih Ibn Sa’d as-Suhaymee (http://www.troid.org/audio/speakers/assuhaymee/sept11.ram)

Akhee-Abdullah

08-29-2005, 11:56 AM

:info: With Which Religion and Intellect are Suicide Bombings and Destruction Considered Jihaad? (http://www.salafibookstore.com/sps/downloads/pdf/MNJ140006.pdf):info:
by Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin al-Abbaad

Akhee-Abdullah

08-29-2005, 12:27 PM

:info:The Suicide Bomber is Not A Martyr And Is In Hellfire:info: by Shaikh Ibn Uthaimeen

Shaikh Ibn Uthaymeen, may Allaah have mercy upon him, said in his explanation of Riyaadus-Saaliheen (1/165-166), whilst giving some points of benefit from the hadeeth of Suhayb, may Allaah be pleased with him:

"That Allaah's Messenger, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam, said, "There used to be a king amongst those who came before you, and he had a sorcerer. So when he grew old he said to the king, I have become old so send a boy to me so that I can teach him sorcery. The king sent him a young boy to serve the purpose. And on his way (to the magician) the young boy met a monk to whom he listened to and liked it.

It became his habit that on his way to the magician, he would meet the monk and sit there and would come to the magician (late). The magician used to beat him because of this delay. He complained about this to the monk who said to him: 'When you feel afraid of the magician, say: Members of my family detained me. And when you fear your family, say: The magician detained me.' It so happened that there came a huge beast and it blocked the way of the people, and the young boy said: 'I will know today whether the magician or the monk is better.'

He picked up a stone and said: `O Allah, if the way of the monk is dearer to You than the way of the magician, bring about death to the animal so that the people be able to move about freely.' He threw that stone at it and killed it and the people began to move about freely. He then came to the monk and told him the story.

The monk said: `Son, today you are superior to me. You have come to a stage where I feel that you would be soon put to a trial, and in case you are put to a trial, do not reveal me.' That young boy began to heal those born blind and the lepers and he, in fact, began to cure people from all kinds of illnesses. When a courtier of the king who had gone blind heard about him, he came to him with numerous gifts and said, `If you cure me, all these things will be yours.'

He said, `I myself do not cure anyone. It is Allah, the Exalted, Alone Who cures; and if you affirm faith in Allah, I shall also supplicate to Allah to cure you.' This courtier affirmed his faith in Allah and Allah cured him. He came to the king and sat by his side as he used to sit before. The king said to him, `Who restored your eyesight?'

He said, `My Rubb.' Thereupon he said, 'Do you have another lord besides me?' He said, `My Rubb and your Rubb is Allah.' So the king kept torturing him untill he revealed the young boy. The young boy was thus summoned and the king said to him, 'O boy, it has been conveyed to me that you have become so much proficient in your magic that you cure the blind and the lepers and you do such and such.'

Thereupon he said, `I do not cure anyone; it is Allah Alone Who cures,' and the king took hold of him and began to torture him until he revealed of the monk. The monk was summoned and it was said to him: `You should turn back from your religion.' But he refused. The king sent for a saw, placed it in the middle of his head and cut him into two parts that fell down.

Then the courtier of the king was brought forward and it was said to him: `Turn back from your religion.' He, too, refused, and the saw was placed in the midst of his head and he was torn into two parts. Then the boy was sent for and it was said to him: `Turn back from your religion.' He refused. The king then handed him over to a group of his courtiers, and said to them: `Take him to such and such mountain; make him climb up that mountain and when you reach its peak ask him to renounce his Faith.

If he refuses to do so, push him to his death.' So they took him and made him climb up the mountain and he said: `O Allah, save me from them in any way you like,' and the mountain began to shake and they all fell down (dead) and that young boy came walking to the king. The king said to him, `What happened to your companions?'

He said, `Allah has saved me from them.' He again handed him to some of his courtiers and said: `Take him and carry him in a boat and when you reach the middle of the sea, ask him to renounce his religion. If he does not renounce his religion throw him (into the water).' So they took him and he said: `O Allah, save me from them.' The boat turned upside down and they all drowned except the young boy who came walking to the king.

The king said to him, `What happened to your companions?' He said, `Allah has saved me from them,' and he said to the king: `You cannot kill me until you do what I command you to do.' The king asked, `What is that?' He said, `Gather all people in one place and tie me up to the trunk of a tree, then take an arrow from my quiver and say: With the Name of Allah, the Rubb of the boy; then shoot me. If you do that you will be able to kill me.'

`The king called the people in an open field and tied the young boy to the trunk of a tree. He took out an arrow from his quiver, fixed in the bow and said, `With the Name of Allah, the Rubb of the young boy,' he then shot the arrow and it hit the boy's temple. The young boy placed his hand upon the temple where the arrow had hit him and died.

The people then said: `We believe in the Rubb of this young boy.' The king was told: `Do you see what you were afraid of, by Allah it has taken place; all people have believed.' The king then commanded that trenches be dug and fire lit in them, and said: `He who would not turn back from his (the young boy's) religion, throw him in the fire' or `he would be ordered to jump into it.'

They did so till a woman came with her child. She felt hesitant in jumping into the fire. The child said to her: `O mother! Endure (this ordeal) for you are on the Right Path".[Muslim]. (Riyaadhus-Saaliheen, no. 30)

That it is permissible for a person to expose himself to danger for a matter of general benefit to the Muslims, because the boy indicated to the king the way in which he would be able to kill him, and which would lead to his demise, which was that he should take an arrow from his quiver etc.

Shaikhul-Islaam (Ibn Taymiyyah) said, "Because this was a Jihaad in Allaah's cause, which caused a whole nation to truly believe, and he did not really lose anything, since although he died he would have to die anyway, sooner or later."

But as for what some people do regarding activities of suicide, tying explosives to themselves and then approaching Unbelievers and detonating them amongst them, then this is a case of suicide * and Allaah¹s refuge is sought. So whoever commits suicide then he will be consigned eternally to Hell-Fire, remaining there forever, as occurs in the hadeeth of the Prophet, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam. (i.e., his, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam, saying, " and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, then the iron weapon will remain in his hand, and he will continuously stab himself in his belly with it in the Fire of Hell eternally, forever and ever." Reported by al-Bukhaaree, no. 5778 and Muslim, no. 109, in the Book of Eemaan.)

Because this person has killed himself and has not benefited Islaam. So if he kills himself along with ten, or a hundred, or two hundred other people, then Islaam will not benefit by that, since the people will not accept Islaam, contrary to the story of the boy. Rather it will probably just make the enemy more determined, and this action will provoke malice and bitterness in his heart to such an extent that he may seek to wreak havoc upon the Muslims.

This is what is found from the practice of the Jews with the people of Palestine so when one of the Palestinian blows himself up and kills six or seven people, then in retaliation they take sixty or more. So this does not produce any benefit for the Muslims, and does not benefit those amongst whose ranks explosives are detonated.

So what we hold is that those people who perform these suicide (bombings) have wrongfully committed suicide, and that this necessitates entry into Hell-Fire, and Allaah¹s refuge is sought and that this person is not a martyr (shaheed).

However if a person has done this based upon misinterpretation, thinking that it is permissible, then we hope that he will be saved from sin, but as for martyrdom being written for him, then no, since he has not taken the path of martyrdom. But whoever performs ijtihaad and errs will receive a single reward (if he is a person qualified to make ijtihaad)."

PainKiller

08-29-2005, 01:43 PM

Chicagoan,

I really hope that u were not serious about this statement. One thing is when u blow up the military, soldiers who are attacking you, and absolutely different thing when u blow up people in the Metro station. It is, I believe Haram. It has not been done for the sake of Deen, it was done for the political reasons.
I might be wrong, but I really think that If they are really cool, they should blow up the white house with this skinhead Bush, not those civilians who cannot even protect themselves.

absolutely do not agree with this "fatawa".

This form of fight is the scariest for any enemy.
On the other hand, it is highly efficient from military point of view.
Think, when a general plans attack on enemy firstly comes attack itself, and then retreat with minimum losses.

However, the idea of a soldier not even planning to return solves the second problem. That is a nightmare for enemy.

Imagine a case:

20 X freedom fighters are planning next target: Y enemy convoy.

Estimated kill: 20 Y soldiers (all).

Estimated losses among X: 7 soldiers.
(because they hide and suddenly attack, they have fewer losses).

Now, imagine 1 soldier says, I will go all by myself in bomb-laden car, blow up those 20 Y soldiers. He's a true hero. He not only kills 20 Y enemy soldiers, but also saves lives of at least 6 of his comrades!

So, if all X 20 soldiers went to fight Y soldiers, and lost 7 X, in process of eliminating 20 - they are heros....then why not just 1 suicide bomber doing the same job not a hero?

And don't tell me the hadith about suicide. It is used in a wrong place.
Suicide car bomber is taking with him enemy soldiers, that's A BIG difference. Therefore that super fatawa is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, MISTAKEN, and WRONG.

Soldier, any soldier expects to die. Death is a fact of war.
The idea is to cause most damage to enemy with minimum losses.
That is the art of war.

FYI, I think the above explains the reason why USA used NUKES to subdue Japan - Japan had so many fearless suicide pilots ready to take a whole ship or submarine-full of enemy with them to other world, that USA had no chances of winning...
I am very sorry, but that was not even the case why USA bombed Japan. Perl Harbor, brutal treatment of US hostages(like burning the whole camps of hostages alive in areas close to Phillipines), Affect on Japan to Surrender, and PLUS Americans wanted to Test their Nuclear Bomb. I think it is very sad that u think that way. :rolleyes:

stanford

08-29-2005, 03:12 PM

Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, speaking at a conference of Islamic scholars in Egypt last Monday, criticised a fellow scholar who said the Koran categorically forbids suicide but an individual has the right to take such action. Al-Qaradawi said: 'I think that saying it is a legitimate right in Palestine and Iraq is not enough because a right is something that can be relinquished. It is a duty...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,1558181,00.html

I think Qaradawi is not a right Islamic Scholar to follow his fatwas and we have to beware of his IslamOnline website, listening his audio,video lectures.

Vector

08-29-2005, 06:01 PM

Did you read his articles or listen his lectures? Is this only article lead you to think such about this great scholar? That article as well as other articles are just fitna against this great scholar...
guardian,bbc etc. just make a bad image of this person, why? because he condemned the Blair's bloody war in Iraq, which is not of great advantage for Blair... and then they try to maje bad image through media, which is mainly don't forget, in the hands of few jews.
Why do you think then Livingstone (the mayor of London, who hosted Sheikhs visit to London) didn't say anything against Yusuf al-Qaradawi? Moreover, in the article it says: ''Last week Livingstone said he would take the government to court if they tried to ban Al-Qaradawi from coming to Britain under its new anti-terrorist laws''.

Try to search a bit before making such conclusions about something mate...
here is the link, read that, it'll make clear your doubt about this scholar

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article25.shtml

:jazak:
P.S. by the way, your signature somehow related to your topic...;)

Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, speaking at a conference of Islamic scholars in Egypt last Monday, criticised a fellow scholar who said the Koran categorically forbids suicide but an individual has the right to take such action. Al-Qaradawi said: 'I think that saying it is a legitimate right in Palestine and Iraq is not enough because a right is something that can be relinquished. It is a duty...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,1558181,00.html

I think Qaradawi is not a right Islamic Scholar to follow his fatwas and we have to beware of his IslamOnline website, listening his audio,video lectures.

stanford

08-29-2005, 06:16 PM

Akhee-Abdullah

08-29-2005, 06:51 PM

:info:What the people of knowledge advice the youth about our brother Yusuf al-Qaradawi. (http://www.salafibookstore.com/sps/sp.cfm?secID=NDV&subsecID=NDV16&loadpage=displaysubsection.cfm):info:

SHOHRUHM1

08-29-2005, 07:49 PM

I guess we have to detirmine what is suicide first, what were the motives of those people who killed themselves. i personally wouldnt mix killing oneself cuz of dipression or losing a girlfriend/boyfriend with trying to save someone's life or intending to reach some other aims.

There are many things that brings man or woman to that point and calling all of them suicide would be wrong.

And Allah knows best

Ulug'bek

08-29-2005, 11:05 PM

... as a military commander i'd rather have 100 good trained soldiers than 10.000 so-so suicidal soldiers.
anybody disagree?

Sorry to say, but I would definately disagree!
To train 100 is nothing (0.00000000000000001) when you compare to 10.000 soldiers who are ready to commit suicide attack! No comparison att all!
Did you know it is only these 'weapons" in the hands of palestinians and Iraqis that working and Israelis and Americans are scared off and have no solution for it (one of the attempts they are doing now is to publish the opinions of scholars who reject this type of attack to stop/reduce it)?!

Back to the issue, as some of the participants have stated scholars have two different opinions about the issue, both parties did ijtihad after being quilified for that, hadiths and other eraly fatwas in this regard (hadith of al-g'ulam, issue of tatarrus etc.) generally are valid for both derivings!

So every one who is stasified with any of those ijtihads is safe! No way to blame other party so and so.

Hoever, I am personally against any military attacks against civilians!

We (Muslims) are in the bounty of Allah SWT as far as we don't start eating each other and if we are able to pass killing-borders of all "ism-ism" and "iyyah-iyyah"s! or at least have proper respect towards who disagree with us based on islamic arguments!

As to some one in another thread blaming Shaykh al Qaradawi as unqualified, I only beg him(them) to be be just in their judgements, you and I may disagree with al-qaradawi on certain issues, -that is very fine and acceptable- but please lets have our respect towards scholars of the ummah!
He is one of the most knowledgable temporary scholars of the time!
And maybe one of the most moderate of them!
Only thing makes west hate him is his firm stance in the palestinian and iraqi issue against interest of the west and off course, his attachement to the ikhwan al muslimin! otherwise it would be the west who will support him for his very moderate and reformist views on many issues! He is the man who doesn't care what the west or east thinks or local governments says (which is not the case for many "iyyah" supporters) about him, He says what he thinks is from Islam! although he also does mistakes! By the way, who doesn't do mistakes! Ijtihad is about doing rights and wrongs!

My strongest respects to this type of strong scholars! Who doesn't fear but only Alllah SWT!

I am telling this, after reading many of his works, works of those who opposed him!
I know that some of those who are not able to pass "iyyah" borders doesn't like him very much, however I do have very strong respect towards him and also have respect towards opinions of his opponents as far as they argue within the rules of the accepted method.

Ulug'bek

08-30-2005, 12:51 AM

:info:What the people of knowledge advice the youth about our brother Yusuf al-Qaradawi. (http://www.salafibookstore.com/sps/sp.cfm?secID=NDV&subsecID=NDV16&loadpage=displaysubsection.cfm):info:

Proper title for this would be "What some scholars think about other scholars"!
Allthough, not all of who speak about/against al-qaradawi entitled to be described as a scholar!

Did you read his articles or listen his lectures? Is this only article lead you to think such about this great scholar? That article as well as other articles are just fitna against this great scholar...
guardian,bbc etc. just make a bad image of this person, why? because he condemned the Blair's bloody war in Iraq..

I share Vectra's view till great extent!

Ulug'bek

08-30-2005, 02:06 AM

I think proper dealing with the issue should be to study why people resort to this type actions, while life is given by Allah TO LIVE AND NOT TO DIE!

Those who care about their being safe from suicide bombers must study why people become so!

A very brief, yet excellent article in this regard is:

Why We Have Become Suicide Bombers
By Dr. Eyad Sarraj a Palestinian Psychiatrist, Commissioner of Citizens Rights, and an Awardee of Physicians for Human Rights.
at
http://www.missionislam.com/conissues/palestine.htm

He says:
Do you know what does it mean to live under Israeli military occupation? Do you really care to know? Let me tell you a few things.

He concludes:
I've told you a few things. Now do you understand why we have turned into suicide killers?

PS. It is not bad to recall/learn What is Islam has to say about a particular issue, but it is more approprate to know what are muslims priorities today and to address first, our main diseases today which could be brifed in the followings:

1.Ignorance.
2.Poverty.
3.Disunity.

(To cure these diseases we must mobilise our nations to gain their opposites!)

So, any attempt to help Islam/Muslims that contributes in deepining any of these weakness must be avoided if we really want to overcome this darkest days our history as a nation, that once, led humanity and the civilazation!

Respects.

Aziz

08-30-2005, 08:16 AM

chicagoan

08-30-2005, 09:12 AM

Chicagoan,

I really hope that u were not serious about this statement. One thing is when u blow up the military, soldiers who are attacking you, and absolutely different thing when u blow up people in the Metro station. It is, I believe Haram. It has not been done for the sake of Deen, it was done for the political reasons.
I might be wrong, but I really think that If they are really cool, they should blow up the white house with this skinhead Bush, not those civilians who cannot even protect themselves.

I am very sorry, but that was not even the case why USA bombed Japan. Perl Harbor, brutal treatment of US hostages(like burning the whole camps of hostages alive in areas close to Phillipines), Affect on Japan to Surrender, and PLUS Americans wanted to Test their Nuclear Bomb. I think it is very sad that u think that way. :rolleyes:

hmmmmm...

Suicide-bombing is the last resort in fighting against KUFFAR terrorism.
When KUFFAR come and kill your father and rape your sister before your eyes, do you go and peacefully protest?

You fight by all means. Any fight involves casualties. Suicide bomber is just the one who does not care if he lives after killing the enemy. That in turn translates into maximum damage to enemy.

They have been very successful in standing against aggression and terrorism by KUFFAR.

Suicide bombers have been able to cause substantial damage to enemy troops, supplies, and means of communication in Afghan-n, Chechniya, IRAQ, and elsewhere.

WAR is full of deceit, and KUFFAR try to show mujahideen in bad light by setting up remotely controlled explosions among civilians. C'mon, today weapons have gone so far that an explosive (remotely controlled) of size of a pen can explode 10 buses. And try to guess who pushed the button....

Pay attention next time a bomb goes off in KUFFAR civilian place and some mysterious muslim website claims responsibility - that website is never published. There's no press conference between fighting KUFFAR and MUJAHIDEEN, so everybody interprets things their way.

I, lieutenant in reserve of Uzbek Armed Forces, would use suicide-bombing tactics to blow up enemy armies if enemy attacks my land. 100%.

In the war, everything goes.

Muslims were the best fighters, and always respected civilians.

Long before Geneva conventions (that authors have not been following all along), ISLAM had special instuctions to Muslim Armies not to hurt POW, children, women, elderly, not to cut down trees, not to flood cities and fields.

Muslims just liberated countries from KUFFAR governments and gave freedom for people to choose what they liked.

best,

mr

Akhee-Abdullah

08-30-2005, 09:30 AM

hmmmmm...

Suicide-bombing is the last resort in fighting against KUFFAR terrorism.
When KUFFAR come and kill your father and rape your sister before your eyes, do you go and peacefully protest?

You fight by all means. Any fight involves casualties. Suicide bomber is just the one who does not care if he lives after killing the enemy. That in turn translates into maximum damage to enemy.

They have been very successful in standing against aggression and terrorism by KUFFAR.

Suicide bombers have been able to cause substantial damage to enemy troops, supplies, and means of communication in Afghan-n, Chechniya, IRAQ, and elsewhere.

WAR is full of deceit, and KUFFAR try to show mujahideen in bad light by setting up remotely controlled explosions among civilians. C'mon, today weapons have gone so far that an explosive (remotely controlled) of size of a pen can explode 10 buses. And try to guess who pushed the button....

Pay attention next time a bomb goes off in KUFFAR civilian place and some mysterious muslim website claims responsibility - that website is never published. There's no press conference between fighting KUFFAR and MUJAHIDEEN, so everybody interprets things their way.

I, lieutenant in reserve of Uzbek Armed Forces, would use suicide-bombing tactics to blow up enemy armies if enemy attacks my land. 100%.

In the war, everything goes.

Muslims were the best fighters, and always respected civilians.

Long before Geneva conventions (that authors have not been following all along), ISLAM had special instuctions to Muslim Armies not to hurt POW, children, women, elderly, not to cut down trees, not to flood cities and fields.

Muslims just liberated countries from KUFFAR governments and gave freedom for people to choose what they liked.

best,

mr

Ya akhee there is a difference between Jihaad against the kuffar and attaining Shuhada versus Committing suicide attack and Attaining Hellfire.

Muslims should fight for their rights when they have been violated by the kuffar and non-kuffar!! However, by not committing suicide, escpecially not on civilian places. This is not a way of the Muslim Ya Akhee!! We do not believe in collateral damage, and we should not practice it!!

If you have to fight, fight like a Muslim with honor and dignity. If you managed to get bombs to strip around, I am sure you can manage to haul it on the military arsenal of the kuffar!! Even if you get shot on your way of doing it.

It is not what the end result that matters in front of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, it is a WHYness (Niyah) and HOWness (Accrding to Quraan and Sunnah) of an action, act of obedience! If both conditions are not met at the same time, that action is VOID/Habata!!!

Suicide bomber Muslims rather should work their brain to build military might rather and fight honorably than strapping bombs around their necks so that they can achieve maximum benefit in this and the next world!!

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, however, brother in Islaam wishes only good to his brother in Islaam.

chicagoan

08-30-2005, 09:48 AM

Ya akhee there is a difference between Jihaad against the kuffar and attaining Shuhada versus Committing suicide attack and Attaining Hellfire.

Muslims should fight for their rights when they have been violated by the kuffar and non-kuffar!! However, by not committing suicide, escpecially not on civilian places. This is not a way of the Muslim Ya Akhee!! We do not believe in collateral damage, and we should not practice it!!

If you have to fight, fight like a Muslim with honor and dignity. If you managed to get bombs to strip around, I am sure you can manage to haul it on the military arsenal of the kuffar!! Even if you get shot on your way of doing it.

It is not what the end result that matters in front of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, it is a WHYness (Niyah) and HOWness (Accrding to Quraan and Sunnah) of an action, act of obedience! If both conditions are not met at the same time, that action is VOID/Habata!!!

Suicide bomber Muslims rather should work their brain to build military might rather and fight honorably than strapping bombs around their necks so that they can achieve maximum benefit in this and the next world!!

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, however, brother in Islaam wishes only good to his brother in Islaam.

I am sure you did not read my post carefully.

I said KUFFAR set up explosions (REMOTELY CONTROLLED) AT CIVILIAN PLACES AND BLAME MUSLIMS, SUICIDE BOMBERS FOR IT.

MUSLIMS SURELY HAVE BEEN USING THIS TACTIC TO ATTACK MILITARY TARGETS OF KUFFAR, BUT KUFFAR ARE JUST TRYING TO SHED BAD LIGHT ON TRUE MUSLIM FIGHTERS BY BLAMING THEM ON VARIOUS ATTACKS ON NON-MILITARY PLACES LIKE METRO.

TAKE THE RECENT LONDON EXPLOSIONS. MUSLIMS COMPOSE ALMST 1/5 OF THE WORLD POPULATION, if not more.

So, the probability of one muslim being in a busful of kuffar is highly probable.

Especially INDIA/Pakistan have been UK's colonies. How did London police blame London attacks on muslims?

A muslim woman called police seeking her son.

Police determined that the guy's head was blown-off by explosion in a bus - so he must be the suicide-bomber!!!!! What a stupid LOGIC!!!!!

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=5832&R=C67BD17

Then, go think a little more that LONDON bombings were done by those who cared about UK's well-being.

1) They could have exploded before G7 summit. G7 summit would not take place which would be a political blow to UK.

2) Few days b4 Olympic committee picked London for next games.
If bombs went on a week or so earlier - London would surely lose the contest to Paris!!!!

HOwever, now the LONDON attacks did good to UK government: gave more credibility of their claims of terrorism, Britons hatred towards muslims rose 600%% or more.

think. think for yourself.
don't believe all kuffar say.

long live suicide-bombers!

mr

forex

08-30-2005, 11:15 AM

long live suicide-bombers!

mr

lol,looks like two ardent devotees are having debates
this is an interesing topic,nevertheless

PainKiller

08-30-2005, 11:15 AM

stanford

08-30-2005, 11:18 AM

Chicagoan You should set an example by strapping a bomb on yourself and having at it, I would support you in this decision.

Paygambarimiz SAV. hazrati Ali R.A.ni oldilariga chakirib, ohirgi zamonga ishora qilib,"Sizni yahshi koradiganlar ham yomon koradiganlar ham dozahga tushadi" deb bashorat bergan ekanlar.

Hech bir zamonda Hazrati Ali R.A ni yahshi korgan ummat ham dozahga borarkanmi?? Bu ham huddi Islom yolida ozini oldirayotganlarni misoliga ohshaydi.Shahidlik,Farz,Jihod lekin ohir okibat jahannam boladi boradigan joyi.
Bunday yoldan adashgan odamlar va ularni kilayotgan ishlari Diyn uchun zarar,Haq yolni topishga halakit beruvchi fitnadir.

PainKiller

08-30-2005, 11:20 AM

Student

08-30-2005, 12:08 PM

stanford

08-30-2005, 12:21 PM

I think there is a difference between terrorest's suicide bombs and Jihad suicide bombs
Nobody can say there is no Jehad in Palestine. The suicide bombs are the most succesful way for Jihad at this critical time.
you can't judge a scholar because you don't have as much knowledge as he do. So I think it is not fair to say something bad about anyone of them.

Your brother:Aziz
Your idea is ridiculously extremist and absolutely stupid! I know how Muslims should be and I have "right muslim friends" which always help to the right path, and I can say that a person who thinks he or she is a muslim, but commits atrocious acts of violence like a suicide bombing is out of the true one religion Islam and does not count as one of us.
Yes it is fair ,your idea ,whoever follows your idea and whoever you follow on that idea are all wrong.

'...we want to treat them the way clerics treat their students, the way fathers treat their sons.' there is always an excuse not to follow the truth ...

chicagoan

08-30-2005, 12:26 PM

Inson o'zini o'zi o'ldirishi bu Ollohga ishonmiyman degani.(Fozil qori) O'ziga qo'shib boshqalarni qurbon qilishi tem bolee... If so how they can be called muslims. They are just crazy people. Ishonovring.

Dushmanni zo'ravonligini to'htatish uchun har qanday yo'l joiz.
Noharbiy joylardagi portlashlarni KOFIRlar ataylab musilmonlarni qoralab korsatish uchun uyushtiradilar.

Nahotki shuni anglash qiyin bo'lsa?

Musilmonlar eng tinchliksevar insonlardir.

Hozirda bo'layotgan urushlarning deyarli barchasi musilmonlarning o'z yerlarida bolmoqda. O'z oilasini, vatanini himoyasiga yovning harbiy qurol ustunligi tufayli, musilmonlar eng dahshatli yollar bilan bu harbiy nishonlarga hujum qilmoqda.

9/11, London bombings, Moscow bombings, Beslan- va hokazo Kofirlarning safsatasi.

THINK, PEOPLE.

OPEN YOUR EYES!

mr

chicagoan

08-30-2005, 12:28 PM

chicagoan

08-30-2005, 12:42 PM

Chicagoan, one(I am very sorry, did not mean to insult u, Astagfurillah) situation to imagine:
Ur wife with ur kids is on the metro and suicider blowed the train up.
Would u still think that it was ok? :(
I would consider that u would be in pain, they r innocent, what do they have to do with the war in Iraq???

I assure everyone, there was no suicide bomber in London.

It was most probably work of special agencies of the west.

Just throw off the probability of civilians being killed by muslims.

Did you know that Israeli embassy knew that explosions in London were expected?

At WTC 9/11 normally around 50 000 people worked in those towers, but only 2000+ died? Some people were late for work!!!!!! about only 45 000 people.

Otherwise there is no way to evacuate from One building complex 45000+ workers in about one hour.

I estimate that more than 2000 people worked JUST above the floors that were hit! Moreover, the building collapsed with them on top of those stuck in lower floors. Some exits were locked, elevators did not work.

Just ask any firefighter, is it possible to evacuate 45000 people out of a high-rise in about 1 hour?

ehhhhhh

Do you think?

don't take all the assumptions as given.

Learn to question the information hamburger before you swallow.

Muslims are fighting unequal wars. Their resources, and people are few.
Enemy has concentrated hefty military power and thinks can do anything.
In such cases, tactics of maximum damage is the rule.

Every muslim soldier takes away with him a convoy or two (because most mujahideen do not even have Kalashnikov) with a hand-made bomb.

Agree, it is easier to make a bomb than a Kalashnikov?

If those suicide-bombers had Kalshnikov, they would shoot and hit from 2000 meters, but SIMPLY they have not and can not make such weapons in their backyards.

Think bottom line, people.

peace,

mr

forex

08-30-2005, 01:03 PM

Chicagoan,
it's just like explaining some dumb ass americans that 9/11 was set up.They tell you opposite,claiming that terrorists came and killed Americans.
I guess minds some of our forum users became poisoned with american food and propaganda that they can't understand what they are reading.
The thread clearly states that all the bombings in public places were set up to discredit muslim people.

chicagoan

08-30-2005, 01:13 PM

Akhee-Abdullah

08-30-2005, 04:12 PM

Ya akhee please refer this topic back to the Ulema, inshallah you will find them stating the opposite. May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala give all of us understanding of the deen

Aziz

08-30-2005, 05:29 PM

Your idea is ridiculously extremist and absolutely stupid! I know how Muslims should be and I have "right muslim friends" which always help to the right path, and I can say that a person who thinks he or she is a muslim, but commits atrocious acts of violence like a suicide bombing is out of the true one religion Islam and does not count as one of us.
Yes it is fair ,your idea ,whoever follows your idea and whoever you follow on that idea are all wrong.

'...we want to treat them the way clerics treat their students, the way fathers treat their sons.' there is always an excuse not to follow the truth ...

May Allah forgive you brother stanford
this is my opinion and you are not forced to accept it
Imam Shafie said:My opinion is right, but it could be wrong. Other people opinion is wrong and it could be right.
no need for all these word (extemist, stupid....etc)

I'm sorry if I said something bothered you but i didn't say that from my mind I heard it from Alim.

Allah knows better

stanford

08-30-2005, 05:41 PM

U gaplar Ahli Sunnah bolmish tort mazhab ichidagi ihtiloflar hakida aytilgan,chunki uilar turli masalarga turli fikr bildirganlar.Yani u gaplaridan tort mazhabning biriga ergashish ruhsat,ahli sunnah ekanligiga dalolat beradi.Suicide,forbidden kilingan masalarga u gapni ishlatish yana ham hato boladi.
May Allah forgive you brother stanford
this is my opinion and you are not forced to accept it
Imam Shafie said:My opinion is right, but it could be wrong. Other people opinion is wrong and it could be right.
no need for all these word (extemist, stupid....etc)

I'm sorry if I said something bothered you but i didn't say that from my mind I heard it from Alim.

Allah knows better

tarafdor

08-31-2005, 10:12 AM

Aziz

08-31-2005, 04:27 PM

stanford

08-31-2005, 04:34 PM

I suggest "translation board" be added to this forum.

Black

09-01-2005, 06:03 AM

Ulug'bek

09-01-2005, 10:36 AM

Why it is always like this, as soon as I begin admiring somebody, he says/posts/does something stupid, or unislamic, or nonsense, or illogical.
May be it is God just showing me that nobody is perfect and the only people to admire are Rasulillah :saws: and sahabas r.a. . I think God is reminding me no one is perfect.
Uzb I admired you so much (for you posts), but I see you are not different from others. What an illogical unislamic short thinking! I am in a hurry now, I'll answer you later Inshallah.

First of all, if you took my comment some thing personal, please be aware that it was nor intended. Allthough I don't apologise for my ideas that has been expressed in any thread, I do applogise for the way they were expressed if that caused kind of misunderstanding or someone saw lack of respect in them!
I have quite free style in this issue, if I see in someone's post some thing I like I would say it, even if he/she has disagreed with me in another thread and vice-verca! I wished every body had this type of attitude, so we could benefit from each other freely.

Secondly, i am not here to gain some one's admiration, but to express my views, which i consider to be quite moderate, affecting people with wich should contribute in better understanding and cooperation among muslims/islamists and clarification about issues related to islam for non-islamists, which also lead to better understanding. This might be whrong, but this is what I at least think and aim to do.

Thirdly, there are certain issues I have no tolerence towards them, one of which is Palestinian issue. The thing which I allways keep repeating is:"If we can not help our brothers there to fight against strongest and most cruel enemy and can not protect their children , elderly and women, at least we must stop harming them"! You, I and many others in this forum can keep talking too long about this and that, but never feel what is happening to those people under israeli never-ending humilating inhumane opression, one never can feel such thing unless it is also practiced on him/her!
Please, please, I beg you brothers and sisters, let us zip our mouses if what we are going to say is going to harm them IF THEY ALSO HAVE KIND OF ISLAMIC PERMISSION FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING in order to protect their mothers, children and their land!
Another thing I would not compromise is to create an atmosphere of respect among muslims/islamists towards each other, regardless differences they may have. This going to be a big problem for muslims in Uzbekistan in the near future, as they have learned Islam in different circles in the hand of different groups, if we are not wise enough to establish cooperation and mutual respect we will be in big trouble!
The tool for this is to restore complete respect towards ijtihads done by various muslim groups/scholars as far as they are within the ahlus-sunnah wal-jamaah in broder usage!

As to your response, take your time, do it the way you want to. Allthough I have spent quite many years in studying Islam and what is related to it, I would be very much ready to accept your view if you could stasfy me or teach me some thing I didn't know.

Respects.

Black

09-02-2005, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by Uzb
Sorry to say, but I would definately disagree!
To train 100 is nothing (0.00000000000000001) when you compare to 10.000 soldiers who are ready to commit suicide attack! No comparison att all!
Did you know it is only these 'weapons" in the hands of palestinians and Iraqis that working and Israelis and Americans are scared off and have no solution for it (one of the attempts they are doing now is to publish the opinions of scholars who reject this type of attack to stop/reduce it)?!

Back to the issue, as some of the participants have stated scholars have two different opinions about the issue, both parties did ijtihad after being quilified for that, hadiths and other eraly fatwas in this regard (hadith of al-g'ulam, issue of tatarrus etc.) generally are valid for both derivings!

1. Why unislamic. Allah says- actually orders: "DO NOT KILL YOURSELVES!". He does not say there is exceptions. It is clear order, why to argue on this issue? If there were exceptions Allah would have mentioned it like it is about haram foods- Allah says "do not consume alcohol, pork and dead animals EXCEPT in the cases to save you life". It is like arguing whether vodka is permissible or not, as long as there was not vodka during the Prophet :saws: .
Making suicide (i.e. killing yourself), whether it is for citizens targets or military targets, is porhibited. That's why Islamically I prefer just 1 (one) combating soldier than 1000000 (millions) of suiceders. It is like prefering one halal food over million haram food.
2. Bro, do you have any understanding of military stuff? Prapering suicider cost nothing? Nonsense. Teaching ppl to make explosives, or making explosives for them, buying explosives and etc., and etc., cost hell a lot of money. Do you think explosives fall from the sky? Or do you think when you buy explosives they are ready to use (to explode)? And etc., and etc., If you have doubts just go and ask military personnal what do they prefer suiceders or special forces. That's why militirally I prefer soldiers over suiceders.
3. What are the targets of suiceders? In most cases only and only noncombantant peacfull ppl with no guns.(Do you want me to bring proof? I think you know that better than me). As for the military targets they are all guarded and the guards do not allow anybody 100 metrs close. Even in Uzbekistan, with its poor and poor army, you can not come near to military target (warehouse, garage and etc.,). Besides these suiceders can sucseed just couple of times (on military targets). After 2-3 times even stupid soldiers will realize that who is suicide and how they act and prevent them making any trouble. So you will have 10 000 suiceders just to blow up 10 enemy soldiers (because 2-3 of suiceders could sucseed to blow them up, but the rest 9997-9998 will be shot dead by the enemy soldiers when they attemp to blow up anything.
The only target suiceders may sucseed is the non-combant people (whose causalities westren governments don't give a shit).

I'll contuniue later, I gotta go.

Black

09-02-2005, 07:42 AM

As I said suicide bombing is effective only in short time, that's why I said your opinion short thinking. Just remember WWII, when first Japan started using Kamikadze bombing they were sucsesifull, but they did it not because it is good tactics but they had no other choice, American weaponary were superior to Japan. First americans were shocked and had a big losses, but after a bit of time , when they realised what kind of war is going on and what is going to do Japanese pilots they started to shot down all Japanese planes. Japan made huuuuge losses. Only few kamikadze could sucseed (if any at all). And today we are not in WWII, everybody knows how suiceders work.

4) Did you know it is only these 'weapons" in the hands of palestinians and Iraqis that working and Israelis and Americans are scared off and have no solution for it (one of the attempts they are doing now is to publish the opinions of scholars who reject this type of attack to stop/reduce it)?!

No brother it is not the only weapon in the hands of Palastinians, and especially in the hands of Irakies. Yes it is very difficult for them, but suiciding is not cure, it is not the way to get the liberation. Americans and Israelies (I mean government who make decisions) are not scared of suiciding. Because they do need it, they can use it to support their colonial policies. Imagine if all muslims stop suiciding (I hope for that). Whom they are going to blame and to make excuse for their next invansions? I am not saying they will stop their invansion policy if muslims do not suicide, but muslims should do it for themselves, because it is unislamic.
And american and israely governments don't give a shit about the death of innocent americans and israelies. They just manupulate those tragidies to achieve their evil goals. They benefit from these tragedies.
Can you bring a proof that americans and israelies are going to publish the opinion of scholars? I don't think that they are interested in muslims following right Islam. They strongly oppose muslims' unity.

Ulug'bek

09-03-2005, 09:58 AM

1. Why unislamic. Allah says- actually orders: "DO NOT KILL YOURSELVES!". He does not say there is exceptions. It is clear order, why to argue on this issue? If there were exceptions Allah would have mentioned it like it is about haram foods- Allah says "do not consume alcohol, pork and dead animals EXCEPT in the cases to save you life". It is like arguing whether vodka is permissible or not, as long as there was not vodka during the Prophet
Making suicide (i.e. killing yourself), whether it is for citizens targets or military targets, is porhibited. That's why Islamically I prefer just 1 (one) combating soldier than 1000000 (millions) of suiceders. It is like prefering one halal food over million haram food.

Black,

I don't like repeating myself but little recalling of what I said is necessary.

You have missed the main point I had in my posts here, if you have accepted the idea of respect for ijtihads of our scholars you would never called their ijtihad unislamic.

Otherwise, with this type "methodology" you will call major part of Islamic jurisprudence unislamic, since you may find them contradicting with certain verses or hadiths!

Actually, this was all I wanted to say. But now let me try to show why you can not call their ijtihad unislamic in little bit more details!
It seems that you didn't read the opinion of those who approved suicide bombings, some of whom conditioned permissibility only for military targets, otherwise you wouldn't have called it unsilamic.

Among who have defended legitimacy of it are Al-Qaradawi, al-Tantawi (shakhul-azhar) and many others, including scholars of "al-Hamas" and others.

About the verse you have used, it would have been better if you have cheeked the interpretation of it first!

Those who have said that the meaning of the verse is "don't kill each other!" which is different than yours:
Al-Tabari, tafsir 2:189, 4:33, 9:351, 11:389. he said that the meaning of the verse is "don't kill each other!"He reported this view from previous scholars like al-Suddi, Ata ibn Abi Rabah, too.

Ibn katheer, tafsir 4:270, although he dealt with the verse in more common meaning is another place.

Al-Qurtubi, tafsir, 5:543. He stated scholars have consensus that the meaning of the verse is "don't kill each other", although he said that it includes killing one self in order to gain more worldly wealth etc.

The same or similar stated by al-wahidi, 1:261, abu al-suud, 2:144, in 5:228 he stated that was the consensus of majority. Al-suyuti, (al-durar) 2:496. al-nasafi, 3;17, al-alusi, (ruhul-maani) 4:201, 5:16 (more general here), al-Jassas, 2:213, 2:354, Ibn taymiyyah, minhaj al-sunnah, 4:313, 7:124. there were some others who have said the same, but I have omitted thinking wouldn't recognize them.

Ibn al-jawzi has mentioned 5 opinions in interpretation of the verse among themare both 2 above. (zadul maseer, 2:60-62). He mentioned Ibn Abbas, Hasan,Said ibn Jubair, Ikrima, Qatada, al-Suddi, Muqatil and Ibn Qutaiba, "don't kill each other".

Personally I see that consensus does'n exist, since al-baghawi and al-shawkani stated the verse might include "to kill oneself" too. However the thing you should note is that it is not clear-cut as you saw it.

It would have been more appropriate if you have supported your idea with the hadith of Abu Hurairah :"whoever has killed himself with an iron …". (muttafaqun alaih) and other few other hadiths (on the authority of Ibn Abbas, Thabit bin Abdullah, Jundub ibn abdullah and others (Ibn kathir 1:636)), states clearly that it is not allowed for muslim to kill him/her self!

However, those who saw suicide bombing is permitted and even one of the best types of jihad, say that these hadiths all are about a muslim willing to kill him/her self for the reasons of dunya and since what we are permitting is for the sake of deen and the ummah it is permitted.
Hadithul- g'ulam, the story of young muslim boy who did more than killing himself, i.e. he sjowed the king the way he can kill him is hard eveidence for permission of killing of muslim if his/her death is for the benefit of the ummah. They don't allow you to limit permission only if tyere were people who convert to islam if killing took place, because they see suicide bombings as a strong tool for the preservance of islam and muslims in their land, agree or not, they don't care, they see it so. To outsider like I and you they say: Please take care of your bisness, don't interfere if you can't come and help us, we see and practice and we know what is helpful and helping, we see the results by our eyes!
In addition, they may say to you: there was no evidence that the boy in the story knew that people would accept Islam if he has done so!
Threfore any extreme limiting lacks evidence! so they allow themself to do anology to suicide bombing!

Further, they support their view with early fatwas of scholars in permission of killing muslims when the enemy used them as shield in fighting against muslims. They say: if it is allowed to kill muslims on purpose in order to kill the enemy, then, it is also allowed to kill one self in order to kill the enemy, especially if it is the only way or one of the most succesfull ways of harming tyhe enemy and protecting muslims' interest!
Here is the little input for you to get an idea about what shcolars said about "tatarrus"
Ibn abdul-barr, Istizkar, 5:26, al-Subki, Ibhaj: 3:128, Ibn taymiyyah, majmu al fatawa 20: 15 (He said: Scholars(Fuqaha) have all agreed that if enemy's harm is not overcame/the enemy defeated unless by killing those Muslims whom enemy is using as shield, then it is allowed to kill them, in order to be able to kill those enemies behind them, but if it is possible to remove this harm without killing the Muslim shield, then scholars have 2 opinions; permitting and prohibiting!".

Al-Ayni, Umdatul Qori, 14:262 :"Awzai said: if kafirs used muslim children, muslim prisoners .. as a shield, it is not allowed to attack them. However, Thawri, Abu Hanifa, Abu Yusuf, Muhammad, Shafii, Ahmad and Ishaq said: if it is not possible to kill the enemy unless those shield muslims are killed, then it is allowed!".

[size=5]I hope i was able till some extent to show you that it is not as easy as you thought to declare a group od scholars' view-ijtihad who saw suicide attaches permissible, unislamic.
If it is hard for you to undersatnd what they are saying, i recommend you to study "usul al fiqh", especially chapter of ijtihad, where you also get an idea about what the ijtihad is all about and what position muslim shouls have towards ijtihads of scholars even he/she may see some of them incorrect!

Another good idea would be to read "raful-malam anil-aimmatil-a'lam" written by Ibn Taymiyyah, a brief yet excellent book on explaining how and why different muslim schools have different opinions/methodologies on how to make use of verses and hadiths from where the reader learn how to respect scholars of Islam, altough I disagree with the author on some of his conclusions where he preffered a specific methodology above others.
By the way, on other thread i saw people discussing about The Iamam Ibn Taymiyyah and accusing him in certain things. Only advice to them would be to read some of his works, then you know who the man is!
You may disagree with him as much as you wish as you do it with other scholars also, but learn who was he and what and how he served Islam as his ijtihad dictated him, you if you are objective enough get filled with respect towards him.

As to benefeciency of suicide bombing, I am tired to write about, you may look through chicagoans' posts where he defended this. In addition you may search for what Bush and Blair speeches where they tell how they are suffering from it and do not have usefull mneans to prevent it, you may aslo do the same with speeches of israili officials. I hope you don't disagree with me that those who are "suffering" from suicide bombings know better than us-theoreticals. If you are looking for more specific statistics you search for it in palestinian and iraqi insurgence's web site on of which is basra-dot-net (was it al-basra?) if i am not mistaken.
One more thing, suicide bombing doesn't necessarily mean that they do it in a classical way , thay may do it with the plane as japanese camecadzes or with car as hezbullah did "succesfully" in 1983 or with any other ways. What you should understand in importance and benefitiance of suicide bombers is these are people ready for 100% death, while normal soldiers fight for money and to live better not to die! Only thing you need with them is good commander who can make use of them in proper way!
If you can differentiate between these 2, then you understand why i said no comparision between these soldiers and other ordinary soldiers! Also remember when we call both parties soldiers, it is also already there that they are equial in their other military skills, pluss one group is ready to die 100%!
Only simple calculation needed to see the difference.

Respects.

chicagoan

09-23-2005, 12:48 AM

Thank you for the response, Chicagoan.
But, if u paid attention, I made the distinction between killing the soldiers and killing the civilians. Let's take the London Events, How can you justify the fact that one person goes to the metro station and kills hundreds of people? :?
It has nothing to do with Kuffar and Deen, because they should've known, that amongs their "to-be" victims kids, Muslims etc, By which I do not mean that the rest of the crowd is less worthy.

I told you over and over again....many blasts are to be blamed on KUFFAR themselves, especially among civilians.

An enlightenment for inko here!!!!

http://imgs1.kavkazcenter.com/img/spacer.gif «Израиль», США и Англия продолжают совершать теракты в Ираке
В то время, как в южных районах Ирака наблюдаются акции протеста против британских оккупантов, министр обороны Великобритании Джон Рид подтвердил приверженность Лондона своим обязательствам по Ираку. По мнению политических обозревателей, заявления британского министра не представляют собой ничего иного, кроме демагогии и традиционной дипломатической риторики. Уже ни для кого не секрет, что Великобритания также, как США, разжигает беспорядки и волнения в Ираке. Факт подтверждается нападением британских танков на следственный изолятор в Басре, где содержались два британских военнослужащих, арестованные в Басре иракскими силами три дня назад с некоторым количеством взрывчатки. Заслуживает внимания тот факт, что они были одеты как арабы.

Они планировали взорвать бомбу в одной из шиитских святынь в провинции Басра. С учетом обнаруженных доказательств, безусловно, они заслуживали наказания. Однако, британские оккупанты, окружив следственный изолятор, где содержались два британских виновника, разрушили тюрьму и вызволили заключенных. Двое задержанных британцев поддерживали контакты с МОССАДом. Им была поручено спровоцировать беспорядки в Ираке, поставить эту страну на грань хаоса и гражданской войны. Тем не менее, британские войска не допустили осуждения арестованных военнослужащих и помогли им бежать из тюрьмы. Многие политические круги придерживаются того мнения, что эта история свидетельствует о том, что за взрывами и терактами в Ираке стоят оккупационные британские и американские власти.

Но с целью отвлечения общественного внимания они приписывают теракты неизвестным суннитским группировкам, чтобы спровоцировать раскол среди шиитов и суннитов. Хотя им не удастся достичь этой цели, поскольку между религиозными и национальными группировками в Ираке достигнуто уже относительное согласие, не подлежит сомнению, что официальный Лондон должен отвечать за действия британских военнослужащих в Ираке. Хотя, по мнению мировой общественности, ни в одной точке мира провокационные действия, особенно со стороны оккупантов, не могут быть оправданы, передает иранское радио (http://www.irib.ir/worldservice/russianradio/HTML/chetverg.htm/15.htm).
2005-09-23 01:14:57

Abu Hurayra

09-23-2005, 04:10 AM

Assalamu Aleykum,

Bu masala buyicha ortiqcha gap so'z qilib o'tirishni hojati yo'q.Islom dinini uz hayotining asosi qilib olib yahsab kelayatganlar buning hukmini yahshi bilishadi.Johillarga uhshab Debat-Munozara qilib utirmaylik.Gapdan Birinchi qolganga, Savob tegadi shunga qarab ish tutaylik. Olloh eng yahshi Bilguvchi zotdir!

AAWWB.

PS:Jum'a Sayyidul Ayyom- Hajjul Misakin' laringiz muborak bo'lsin!
Olloh barcha Haq yo'ldagilarning oralarini Isloh,bir birlariga muhabbatli qilsin

Al_Jauzi

09-23-2005, 08:49 PM

Are you talking about Martyrdom Operations???? Or what????
I will post in this section later, Inshallah. The subject will be " The Islamic ruling on the Permissibility of Martyrdom Operations"

The "name suicide-operation" used by some is unaccurate, and in fact this name was chosen by the JEWS to discourage people from such endeavours. How great is the difference between one who commits suicide- because of his unhappiness, lack of patience and weakness or absence of iman and has been threatened with Hell-Fire- and between the self-sacrifier who embarks on the operation out of strenght of faith and conviction, and to bring victory to Islam, be sacrificing his life for the upliftment of Allah's word!

AbdurRahman

09-24-2005, 06:22 AM

Brother Black, to be honoust I dont understand how they can interprest DONT KILL YOURSELF to be kill yourself??

Aqlga sig'maydigan narsa bu.

Here is for them an excellent article:

With Which Religion and Intellect are Suicide Bombings and Destruction Considered Jihaad?
Author: Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin al-Abbaad

http://www.spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=MNJ14&articleID=MNJ140006&articlePages=1

They still have time to repent and recant before Angel of Death reaches them.

May Allaah guide us all to the right path and make us firm upon it.ameen.

wassalaamu alaikum
AbdurRahman

Alesser

09-25-2005, 04:31 AM

...as a military commander i'd rather have 100 suicidal soldiers, than 10.000 so-so soldiers.

anybody disagree?

mr

Islam (Submission) condemns suicide as much as it condemns oppression and aggression against others. While the Muslims (Submitters) are commanded to stand for their rights and defend themselves, their properties and their freedom they are told to first resort to peace advocate tolerance and disregard the ignorant. The following verses from the Quran show how the Quran describes suicide, such an important issue in our life that was made the center of the conflict in the Middle East lately.

[2:195] You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

[ 4:29] O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly - only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

[ 4:30] Anyone who commits these transgressions, maliciously and deliberately, we will condemn him to Hell. This is easy for GOD to do.

Suicide bombing by young uninformed Muslim youths has been carried out almost routinely as a mean of revenge in the Middle East conflict. It is mainly done to avenge their oppression, occupation and loss of freedom they have been experiencing all their life. It is carried out by the youth who lost all the hope to a peaceful settlement as they witnessed their families, loved ones, neighbors, and the innocent bystanders die or tortured at the hand of a merciless occupying force. Despite these intolerable situation no permission can be found in Islam to avenge by suicide bombing or by targeting the innocent civilians. These young desperate Muslim youth have been taught what is NOT in the Quran, and what was never promised by God in the Holy book.

As the verses quoted above show, suicide in any form is condemned by God, no excuse given under any circumstances. The Quran does not promise Heaven (Paradise) to those who commit suicide but rather warn of condemnation to Hell. The promise of paradise or of virgin wives in Heaven for those suicide bombers and those who kill the innocent civilians has no basis in Islam and cannot be found anywhere in the Quran. These fabrications taught to these poor desperate Muslim youths originated probably from the man made books of Hadiths and Sunna that were condemned by God and by the prophet Muhammad himself who told his followers to follow ONLY the Quran.

Suicide is a state of disbelief and loss of faith that is condemned by God throughout the Quran. In the Quran, God commands the believers never to despair or lose hope and instead work for a brighter future.

[12:87] "....................... None despairs of GOD's grace except the disbelieving people."

We do understand the dire situation in which these youth live and we do have the full sympathy to their suffering and oppression , but we cannot agree with breaking God's commandment. Oppression is not a reason to break God's law, on the contrary oppression is a good reason to hold tight to these commandments and to show the world the true and peaceful face of Islam (Submission). If we break God's law we move ourselves away from His mercy and lose His support. We should know that it is by following God's law in the Quran we will gain dignity and sovereignty on our land while achieving peace, tolerance and love to the whole world around us. We have to believe that two wrongs will not make one right. Now after thousands of wrongs carried out by both sides in the conflict, no right emerged and will never emerge. Unless we go back to God's commandments in the scriptures, the Torah, Gospel and/or the Quran, there will be no success and no victory for any group. . All the scriptures call on the people to live in peace and harmony and to advocate tolerance. Victory as far as God is concerned is achieved by the guarantee of freedom and justice for all and not by the domination of one group or nation above another..

Quran urges the followers of Islam (Submission) to resort to peace first and whenever possible but they may fight the oppressors if peaceful means failed. Fighting does not include killing the innocent civilians and the least expecting people as this reflects the meanest kind of character and does not reflect the spirit and/or teachings of Islam (Submission.) These suicide bombers can contribute more and better for the society if they direct their efforts into teaching the world about their cause and work with their neighbors to strengthen their stand against oppression, or be a part of the peaceful solution of the problem they have been facing instead of being a reason for its failure.

The blame can be equally thrown at the oppressors who gave these youths no chance or HOPE to live in dignity and freedom. The world has to speak up against the oppression and occupation of the land and life of these people as well. No where in any divine or human law is a place for a group of people to live at the expense of oppressing others or occupying their homes, land, and life. Peace can only be achieved when mutual respect of human life and properties are achieved.

We should make every effort to educate our young and youth of the Quranic commandments and it is as important for the free world to make every effort to stop this aggression and oppression against a whole nation under occupation that find no exit from this desperate situation except by death or dying.

(8:61) "If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."

(7:199) You shall resort to pardon, advocate tolerance, and disregard the ignorant.

(16:90) GOD advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed.

(49:13) O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant

Alesser

09-25-2005, 05:05 AM

...as a military commander i'd rather have 100 suicidal soldiers, than 10.000 so-so soldiers.

anybody disagree?

mr

Our holy Prophet Muhammad (pease and blessing of Allah be upon him) has told his ummah, us the greates Jihad is ones fighting against his own desires, innerself. Nafs is major Satan of the believer, it makes believers iman to reduce. It takes great effort and challange for muslim going against his ownself. By telling this, what I am trying say is in these days we have such a weak iman. Believer is commited to his desires, and he puts in first place his nafs before his believe. All these oppressions and depressions are the causes of ourselves. we do not have enough yaqeen towards our religion. Before, sahaba raduanlahu anhuma fought against nonmuslims for the sake of Allah, not because of their anger or worldly things. Before, the fight has started sahaba radianlohu anhuma told nonbelievers do not fight, they warned them about fire of Hell ( Jahannam). They said if the non believer fightes agains them and die he will go to Hell, but if he acceptes Islam and be one of the Allah will grant him with his Jannah. They take this massage to the nonbelievers, and alhamdu lillah lots of them accapted Islam. They have accepted Islam because the sahaba radianlahu anhuma put great example about the beauty and the morality of Islam. Sahabs told non believers be like us, and they accepted Islam. Because of the handul of sahabas thousands accepted Islam. Today, we can not say this, lots of muslims in non muslim countries even hide they faith because of the cause of these events. How can we prove them and shaw them the beauty of our religion if tell them that Islam proves the violance, or bombing himself icluding several innocent people. We can not put example for them because our iman is gone down. Muslim killing each other, and how can we say that we are the true believers. Our holy Prophet (pease and blessings of Allah be upon him) told sahabs when they go agains nonbelievers do not harm the olders, women, children, weak and who do not oppose them.
One of the battles Ali radianlahu anhu was about to kill a nonbeliever, and this non beliver spits on his face. As soon as he spits, sahaba throwed his sword away, and didn't kill him. A non beliver asked him how come he did not kill him, he said that first he was killing him for the sake of Allah, but after he spit on his face he got angry and he did not want to kill him because of his anger. After, listening his words a nonbeliever immediately accepted Islam. We have to always thank God and make lots of istigfar, and all Merciful will remove all the opressions. Instead of killing himself and dishonoring Islam, we have to shaw them the beauty of our religion.

uki

09-25-2005, 07:47 AM

absolutely do not agree with this "fatawa".

This form of fight is the scariest for any enemy.
On the other hand, it is highly efficient from military point of view.
Think, when a general plans attack on enemy firstly comes attack itself, and then retreat with minimum losses.

However, the idea of a soldier not even planning to return solves the second problem. That is a nightmare for enemy.

Imagine a case:

20 X freedom fighters are planning next target: Y enemy convoy.

Estimated kill: 20 Y soldiers (all).

Estimated losses among X: 7 soldiers.
(because they hide and suddenly attack, they have fewer losses).

Now, imagine 1 soldier says, I will go all by myself in bomb-laden car, blow up those 20 Y soldiers. He's a true hero. He not only kills 20 Y enemy soldiers, but also saves lives of at least 6 of his comrades!

So, if all X 20 soldiers went to fight Y soldiers, and lost 7 X, in process of eliminating 20 - they are heros....then why not just 1 suicide bomber doing the same job not a hero?

And don't tell me the hadith about suicide. It is used in a wrong place.
Suicide car bomber is taking with him enemy soldiers, that's A BIG difference. Therefore that super fatawa is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, MISTAKEN, and WRONG.

Soldier, any soldier expects to die. Death is a fact of war.
The idea is to cause most damage to enemy with minimum losses.
That is the art of war.

FYI, I think the above explains the reason why USA used NUKES to subdue Japan - Japan had so many fearless suicide pilots ready to take a whole ship or submarine-full of enemy with them to other world, that USA had no chances of winning...

Last but not least those ruling/fatwa sites are often set up to mislead people, confuse them...you know by whom...

selavi, monami.

mr

Chicagoan, men seni taniyman, lekin sen(fikrlaring) juda ozgarib ketipsan...
bir statistikalarga qaragin, bu hodisalarda nechta US askari oldirilgan va nechta iroqli oldirilgan, keyin gapirgin...

Iroqdagi bu strategiyani yaxshi deb oylasang, hozirgacha bulgan statistikaga kora, butun US askarlarini oldirish uchun butun iroq xalqi etmaydi, buning yonida suriya xalqini ham oldirish kerak buladi :)

Balkim begunoh olgan iroqlilardan bittasi ham bu butun suicide bomber larni jahannamga ketishiga sabab bulishi mumkin...
(Bir insonni oldirgan, butun insoniyatni oldirganday gunoh oladi...hadis)

PainKiller

09-25-2005, 09:30 AM

I told you over and over again....many blasts are to be blamed on KUFFAR themselves, especially among civilians.

An enlightenment for inko here!!!!

http://imgs1.kavkazcenter.com/img/spacer.gif
I understand that you are one of those who think that All this was done by Kuffar. Which sounds like BS to me, Sorry to say.
And About ur enlightrnment part, I do not Read Kavkaz Center- Radical, stupid web site.
Peace.

Black

09-25-2005, 11:06 PM

Brother Black, to be honoust I dont understand how they can interprest DONT KILL YOURSELF to be kill yourself??

Aqlga sig'maydigan narsa bu.

I did not understand you brother, can you explain me what do you mean?
Nima aqlga sig'mas ekan? Nahotki "O'zingizni o'zingiz o'ldirmang" degan Allohni buyrug'ini eshitmagansizlar? Sizlar nimani ko'zda tutayapsizlar bilmadimu, lekin men aytgan oyat (yoki Hadisu Qudsiy)da "Hech kim o'zini o'zi o'ldirmasin, Men buni taqiqladim!" degan ma'no bor. Albatta sizlar hohlagancha bahs qilishingiz mumkin bu borada, har hil odamlarni fatwolarini keltirib, lekin bu yerda Allohning buyrug'i aniq va tiniq - "O'zingni o'zing o'ldirma!" , hech qanaqa shart berilgan emas, ya'ni mana shunaqa va mana shunaqa holat bo'p qolsa o'zingni o'ldirishing mumkin, qolgan hollarda esa mumkin emas degan gap yo'q. Agar bo'lsa, Allohning so'zi yoki Rasulilloh :saws: ning hadislari bo'lsa keltiring qabul qilamiz, bo'lmasa har hil fatwolarni tan olmayman. Suicide qilish taqiqlangan tamom vassalom, hech qanaqa exception yo'q!

(P.S. Men bu yerda musulmonlar bir birini o'ldirishi mumkinmi yoki yo'qmi haqida gapirayotganim yo'q. Bu boshqa masala. Agar sizlar "O'zingizni o'zingiz o'ldirmang" yoki Allohning odam o'zini o'ldirishi mumkin emasligi haqida buyruqlarini eshitmagan bo'lsalaringiz, unda bilmadim nimaga bahslashayotganimizni.... )

Here is for them an excellent article:

With Which Religion and Intellect are Suicide Bombings and Destruction Considered Jihaad?
Author: Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin al-Abbaad

http://www.spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=MNJ14&articleID=MNJ140006&articlePages=1

They still have time to repent and recant before Angel of Death reaches them.

May Allaah guide us all to the right path and make us firm upon it.ameen.

wassalaamu alaikum
AbdurRahman

I could not read the article, my comp. can not read PDF format. But my position should be clear from the beginning of the topic, I am against suicide bombings. You can call me whatever you want "American spy who wants to stop muslims from suiciding themselves" or "Israely supporter" or whatever. But my point is clear: Suiciding is prohibited in Islam, whatever the reason is.
I stop posting any more to this thread, I think I am clear enough.
Walaykum Assalam

AbdurRahman

09-26-2005, 05:26 AM

I did not understand you brother, can you explain me what do you mean?
Nima aqlga sig'mas ekan? Nahotki "O'zingizni o'zingiz o'ldirmang" degan Allohni buyrug'ini eshitmagansizlar? Sizlar nimani ko'zda tutayapsizlar bilmadimu, lekin men aytgan oyat (yoki Hadisu Qudsiy)da "Hech kim o'zini o'zi o'ldirmasin, Men buni taqiqladim!" degan ma'no bor. Albatta sizlar hohlagancha bahs qilishingiz mumkin bu borada, har hil odamlarni fatwolarini keltirib, lekin bu yerda Allohning buyrug'i aniq va tiniq - "O'zingni o'zing o'ldirma!" , hech qanaqa shart berilgan emas, ya'ni mana shunaqa va mana shunaqa holat bo'p qolsa o'zingni o'ldirishing mumkin, qolgan hollarda esa mumkin emas degan gap yo'q. Agar bo'lsa, Allohning so'zi yoki Rasulilloh :saws: ning hadislari bo'lsa keltiring qabul qilamiz, bo'lmasa har hil fatwolarni tan olmayman. Suicide qilish taqiqlangan tamom vassalom, hech qanaqa exception yo'q!

(P.S. Men bu yerda musulmonlar bir birini o'ldirishi mumkinmi yoki yo'qmi haqida gapirayotganim yo'q. Bu boshqa masala. Agar sizlar "O'zingizni o'zingiz o'ldirmang" yoki Allohning odam o'zini o'ldirishi mumkin emasligi haqida buyruqlarini eshitmagan bo'lsalaringiz, unda bilmadim nimaga bahslashayotganimizni.... )

I could not read the article, my comp. can not read PDF format. But my position should be clear from the beginning of the topic, I am against suicide bombings. You can call me whatever you want "American spy who wants to stop muslims from suiciding themselves" or "Israely supporter" or whatever. But my point is clear: Suiciding is prohibited in Islam, whatever the reason is.
I stop posting any more to this thread, I think I am clear enough.
Walaykum Assalam

Black, brother, let's not rush into conclusions. If you read my post clearly and think positive you will understand that my position is the same as yours.
I dont understand in this forum everyone thinks negative of each other. No unity? why? Allahummusta'an.-

Gareeb

09-26-2005, 03:10 PM

Black, brother, let's not rush into conclusions. If you read my post clearly and think positive you will understand that my position is the same as yours.
I dont understand in this forum everyone thinks negative of each other. No unity? why? Allahummusta'an.-
Why are you so obsessed with this topic? Are yo gone kill yourself or do you want to stop someone from doing it? Everyone has itsown evidences to do it or not to.

Abu Hurayra

09-26-2005, 03:45 PM

Here I wanted to remind one more time this fact that mostly Muslims have forgotten about:

Sowing dissentions among Muslims. If Muslims fight among each other and waste their own resources that is the best achievement. The way West achieves this goal is generally through infiltrators who start rumors against Muslim leaders from inside as members of the community. One can be assured that there is not a single Islamic organization in the U.S., which does not have one or more infiltrators working for the enemies of Islam. The American intelligence community has a budget of over 26 billion dollars which is spent somewhere. In addition, Egyptian, Algerian, Syrian, Iraqi, Libyan and other tyrants keep an eye on activities of the Muslims in the West affecting their respective rule. Unfortunately, Muslims have lost the lesson of the Qur’an, “O you who believe! If an evil liver (fasiq) bring you news, verify it, lest you cause harm to some people in ignorance and afterward feel sorry for what you did”, (Al Hujurat49:6). American intelligence agencies have used infiltrators to destroy Black Panther, Weatherman and other movements perceived to be anti-American. The West has been using the tactics of divide and rule for the last six centuries against the Muslims beginning with the Muslim rule in Spain, yet the Muslims are not willing to learn the lessons. As it is, the Muslims have their own dissentions and divisions based on madhahib, Sunni-Shi’ah and genuine differences of approaches to fiqhi questions. A few years ago our enemies inspired some of us to fight over the direction of Qibla, whether it is northeast or southeast. Our enemies continue to inspire some of the gullible Muslims about this issue. Similarly, enemies of Islam buy their “Muslim” agents all over the world to start fight between Muslim groups, Muslim countries, inspire treacherous leaders for keeping their societies ignorant, economically, technologically and industrially backward. “Experts” of the West go to Muslim majority countries as friends to keep education system firmly anti-Islamic as they were established three centuries ago by the colonial masters. Since the Muslims are weak and corrupt their conscience is cheaply purchased to work against their own country and society. If the Muslims were true Muslims they will not be purchasable commodities. In the poor countries, ability to send children to private missionary schools, own a car, refrigerator and a bigger house is enough of an attraction to sell their conscience. They will even implant bombs to kill their own brethren for the sake of money fromtheir own enemies. Corrupt “Muslims”, money and surveillance technology of the West are the root causes of further corruption, oppression of the Islamic movements, retardation of educational, economic, scientific, technological, industrial, and military growth of the Muslimsocieties around the globe in the twentieth century.. The Muslims are caught in a vicious cycle. The term “Fundamentalism” was applied to Islam by the Israelis to place wedge among Muslims and make them fight each other. This is another tool to divide Muslims and make them fight against each other. Many Muslim tyrants and dictators have adopted the term “fundamentalism” applied to Muslims causing murders, jailings, tortures and destruction of families of dedicated and sincere Muslims.

As you see in our daily life we recieve,hear all information and believe in it without doing research,Thus those news are reported by mushriks,kafirs or nonbelievers. If we have not got an opportunity to check,research for the information,we must not believe and accuse muslims for this.
Here I saw one brother brought example of bombings in Iraq. Its clear that this is done by US. "A car explodes in crowded market and "n" amount of people died", none(in some cases they will also report that some died) US soldier died." They set a bomb and explode it,later you hear mulltiple versions of this event from news agencies like CNN,BBC,"Fox News" that as if one Iraqi man called people,offered them something then exploded"----nonsence...NO more lies!!!
They want to make The Sunnah and Shia people against each other and thus making this kind of fitnas (Allah knows best),If there will be Peace in IRAQ it will be a big loss to US.Because they will not more steal Free Oil from IRAQ true LEGAL chanels like UN or another.And there are thousands of resons exept this.
So Brothers Let us one more remember Allahs words: “O you who believe! If an evil liver (fasiq) bring you news, verify it, lest you cause harm to some people in ignorance and afterward feel sorry for what you did”, (Al Hujurat49:6).,

Let Allah makes us from those who apply the Ilm they have learned into their life!!!
PS: for more facts:http://www.ilaam.net/PDF/AntiIslamCampaign.pdf

AAWWB

D

Guardian

01-18-2006, 05:29 AM

Al-Qaradawi full transcript

From "Newsnight" Jul. 8th 2004
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/3875119.stm

Iqbol

01-18-2006, 05:58 AM

" ..We would like to point out that Sheikh Al-Qaradawi has a lot of excellent books that we recommend such as "The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam" and so forth. However, he has a lot of mistakes that we should mention as a way of sincere advice to the Ummah in order to be free of blame and to warn Muslims from some of his fatwas...."

http://islamicweb.com/beliefs/misguided/qaradawi.htm

Stanford, are you knowledgeful enough for saying or quoting these kind of affirmations?
You know it is serious?
You know Hazrati Abu Bakr r.a. kept a stone in his mouth for preventing himselg saying useless or harmful words...

Akhee-Abdullah

01-18-2006, 07:07 AM

Assalam alaikum ya ahlil Islaam.

Yusuf al-Qaradawi is not an Imam or Scholar of Ahlis-Sunnah wal Jamaah.

That by which the Ummah has been put to trial in current times is the emergence of a people who wear the gown of knowledge, abrogate the Sharee’ah in the name of "revivalism" and facilitate all of the ways to corruption in the name of "understanding the ease and lenience of Islaam".

And so they opened up evil and despicable avenues in the name of "ijtihaad". Then they belittled the affairs of the Sunnah in the name of the "understanding of priorities" and they also declared their loyalty for the Infidels in the name of "creating a good picture of Islaam".

And the Qaradawi is the head of them, rather the Imam of the misguided, deviant groups that do not practice the minhaj of the ahlis-sunnah wal-jamaah.

Hope this will clarify the matter:

:info:What the people of knowledge advice the youth about our brother Yusuf al-Qaradawi. (http://www.salafibookstore.com/sps/sp.cfm?secID=NDV&subsecID=NDV16&loadpage=displaysubsection.cfm):info:

In terms of suicide bombings, it is ABSOLUTELY HARAAM!!!!

On this topic please read:

Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullahi,:!:

:info:Makkah Imam Takes US to Task on Iraq (http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0040410.htm):info:

Shaykh Rabee’ bin Haadee al-Madkhalee speaks about the Attack on Iraq (http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0030401.htm)

Shaykh 'Ubayd al-Jaabiree on the Position Towards Iraq (http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0030331.htm)

The Imaams of Makkah and Madeenah call for immediate halt to war in Iraq... (http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0030330.htm)

Shaykh Saalih as-Suhaymee speaks about current affairs... (http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0011018.htm)

Riyadh: A clarification was issued yesterday from the Council of Senior Scholars regarding the recent incidents (in Iraq) and this is the text of it: (http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0030329.htm)

Akhee-Abdullah

01-18-2006, 07:08 AM

:info:Grand Mufti denounces the killing of Egypt's envoy to Iraq:info:

Shaikh Abdulaziz Bin Abdullah Al-AsShaikh, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Chairman of the Committee of Senior Ulema [religious scholars] and Chairman of the Department of Scientific Research and Ifta [guidance], today issued the following statement in response to the killing of the Egyptian envoy to Iraq:

Praise be to Allah, and prayer and peace upon his last Prophet. We ask Allah to preserve our religion and bless us by adhering with it to the apparent and hidden truth and keep us sane and protect us from the evils of ourselves.

We heard with great pain what happened to the Egyptian envoy to Iraq, and since this incident was falsely put in a religious context we would like to present the truth, and hope that Allah will guide by it the hearts of those who deviated from the righteous path.

Killing of the souls that Allah prohibited is a greater crime and one of the greatest sins, as Allah says:

{And kill not anyone whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause,}

...and Allah also says:

{Because of that we ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed all mankind.}

What happened to the Egyptian envoy, as he was kidnapped and killed, is considered spread of mischief in the land which Allah prohibited.

Allah says:

{And of mankind there is he whose speech may please you, in this worldly life, and he calls Allah to witness as to that which is in his heart, yet he is the most quarrelsome of the opponents. And when he turns away from you, his effort in the land is to make mischief therein and to destroy the crops and the cattle, and Allah likes not mischief. And when it is said to him “Fear Allah,” he is led by arrogance to more crime. So enough for him is Hell, and worst indeed is that place to rest.}

It is, therefore, clear that this action is prohibited and is among the great sins, and even worse is to relate it to religion. That is a major crime and deceit using the name of Allah, as Allah says:

{Verily, those who invent lies against Allah will never prosper.}

This statement is to present the truth and advise the nation. We ask Allah to preserve our religion and peace, to keep us sane and guide us to understand our religion and adhere to the deeds of our Prophet and to save us from the apparent and hidden temptations of sedition. Aameen.

:info:The Source:info:

http://www.fatwa-online.com/news/0050708.htm

:!:More on the rulings in regards to terrorism, hijacking and suicide bombing:!:

http://www.fatwa-online.com/worship/jihaad/jih004/index.htm

http://furqaan.com/refutations/linksSuicidesEtc.htm