Александр Зиновьев: "РАЗГРОМ СССР БЫЛ ОШИБКОЙ ЗАПАДА..."

[UzLand]

http://www.centrasia.org/news2.php4?st=1148425560

The guy is smart. He talks sense.

[Frida]

It is good stuff Uzland. Even though I like reading news from CentrAsia and Nomad, I really dont like the reader's opinion, they are just bunch of nationalists :(. As for the articl, "zapretniy plod sladok". I guess people will keep looking for something that they arent allowed to.

[Martingale]

It is good stuff Uzland. Even though I like reading news from CentrAsia and Nomad, I really dont like the reader's opinion, they are just bunch of nationalists :(. As for the articl, "zapretniy plod sladok". I guess people will keep looking for something that they arent allowed to.

Whatta **** does this (Razgrom SSSR blah blah..) has to do with "naked body" - I thought?
Then I cliked on the link Uzland gave and realzied that he gave the link to this article: http://www.centrasia.org/disc.php4?st=1148373420


Frida, it's good that you edited your post.;)

p.s. Odil aka, linkni tugirlab quysez yahshi bulardi, boshqa statyaga link berib quyibsiz.

[UzLand]

It is good stuff Uzland. Even though I like reading news from CentrAsia and Nomad, I really dont like the reader's opinion, they are just bunch of nationalists :(. As for the articl, "zapretniy plod sladok". I guess people will keep looking for something that they arent allowed to.

I should note though that sometimes readers' opinions are helpful because, I suspect, at times insiders leave commentaries and it is good to know. Of course, 90% of them is trash, but 10% is a good food for thought and inside info. So I guess it is more about knowing how to properly sort the information there.

I think the West is realizing its mistake - destroying the USSR. Because back then you had one conventional adversary and others were just under its command and control. You knew pretty much how to deal with this adversary and both sides had their deterrents against each other and leverages. You could also have a sensible conversation with your adversary because it was pretty intelligent. It was there with clear objectives, boundaries and ideology. You knew its weaknesses.

But with the USSR gone, you have so many new challenges that are hard to define, without borders and clear command and control system and totally uncontrollable. I don't think as many Americans died and lived in fear during the Cold War as they do now. America is more vulnerable today than it was back then. Both sides had nuclear weapons, but both knew they would not use them. Now there is no such a guarantee.

So in a way the collapse of the Soviet Union was also a menace to the international security system. Tactically the West won, but strategically it lost, because ideals of democracy the West played against communism and people strived for are rejected and irritating today.

[Frida]

That is true. The atheist communists were less dangerous than relegious fundamentalists. The latter definitely doesnt have anything to lose and can explode himself whenever. Only thing I am not sure how hight was West's influence on the collapse of SU. I mean the economy was already stagnized and there was no way to continue just on "mere ideology." I am also for some anti-power to US. In that case there will be a balance. One bully can do whatever when there isnt anyone around. I think with this development of policy Russia at least will try to make some sort of "Integrated Unity of Post Soviet Countries," which wont be too different from USSR. I guess it is a matter of time only.

[Frida]

Frida, it's good that you edited your post.;)

p.s. Odil aka, linkni tugirlab quysez yahshi bulardi, boshqa statyaga link berib quyibsiz.

Yeah, I thought I would offend some religious people in this forum. As you know 85% of them are those who cannot stand something like that. However, I have read that kind of fatwa for sure :)

Uzland, my message to you was before I saw Martin's P.S. it just confirmed what I thought :). I guess I am the last one though, everybody already knows.

[referee]

http://www.centrasia.org/news2.php4?st=1148425560

The guy is smart. He talks sense.

sorry, but это просто чуш imho!

The guy comes across as arragant ideologist, rather than a humble sociologist.

His views on USSR are obviously conditioned by his desire for Russia to have stayed as a communist empire, so the rest flows from this.

For example,
"Поражение СССР стало началом не посткоммунистического, но постдемократического общества. Глобализация и американизация - это удар не столько по русской цивилизации, сколько по Западной Европе и западной цивилизации, начиная с эпохи Ренессанса".

His racist views or prejudiced opinion on Islam is quite clear:

"Исламский мир - абсолютно бесперспективен с точки зрения эволюционного процесса. В исламском мире нет внутренних условий для самостоятельной эволюционной линии". Or,
"Это как в спорте, хоть тресните, а стометровку негры будут бегать быстрее".
He seems to be of the old guard "scientific" communists who believe that humans are just bio-chemical, evolutionary robots that respond to communist signals so much better than any other impulses...

"Человек - существо биологическое, он обладает телом и управляющим мозгом. Это мои предпосылки. Все, что строится, - строится на этой основе."
In short, I am not impressed, sorry...

[Delf]

He makes many valid points, but there are some facts he does not want to acknowledge:

1. People in USSR lived under fear of KGB and that is how the country was governed.

2. Nomenklatura had usurped both government and "means of production"

3. Managerial apparatus (nomenklatura) of Soviet Union was extremely inefficient.

4. West and Gorbachev did not destroy USSR, Belovezh coup-d-etat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belavezha_Accords) did (Eltsin-Kravchuk-Shushkevich).



To sum up his views: he is very good at pointing out at deficiencies and flaws of western societies and he deserves good credit for this, but he fails to deliver a viable alternative, being stuck on Soviet past and being unable to critisize it.


Delf.

[Frida]

I am lost. Only thing I see on that link is how uzbeks and azeris are watching porn in the club opened for intelectual conversations. I havent seen anything on USSR and it collapse :( please put the correct link if possible.

[UzLand]

Guys, sorry, somehow the wrong link was placed and Asadbek, thank you for replacing it with the correct one.

Frida, sorry, here is the correct link

http://www.centrasia.org/news2.php4?st=1148425560

[Szlachcic]

хорошая статья

[referee]

For those interested in getting some idea about the person, the obituary on Zinoviev by the Economist.


DURING the cold war, dissidents were front-line troops in the battle of wills and ideas. Despised and persecuted by the Communist regimes of the Soviet empire, they were idealised in the West. When they emigrated, they were idolised.
It is convenient, but too crude, to assume that anti-Soviet sentiments automatically meant pro-Western ones. Although some dissidents found material and mental well-being in exile, others were horrified by the decadence and cynicism they found. Alexander Solzhenitsyn was one of the outspoken disillusioned. Another was Alexander Zinoviev.
A decorated wartime pilot and distinguished mathematical logician, Mr Zinoviev could have enjoyed a quiet and privileged life in the Soviet Union. But he became a fearless and scathing critic of his country's Brezhnevite senescence. He was already in near-disgrace by the time his greatest work, “The Yawning Heights”, was published in Switzerland in 1976. It parodied, with flashes of Swiftian brilliance, the inhabitants of a fictional Soviet city, Ibansk (roughly, in Russian, “****town”). Ruled by nonentities and suffused with boredom and mediocrity, Ibansk embodied the mind-rotting stagnation of life in the Soviet provinces.
The Soviet authorities were perplexed. To jail Mr Zinoviev would acknowledge that this satire was not wholly fanciful; to ignore him would look weak. So they stripped him of his medals and academic positions. Two years later, he was encouraged to emigrate. He went to Munich, then a centre of émigré dissident life.
He loathed it. His next book, “Homo Sovieticus” (1985), was acclaimed for its dissection of the Soviet mindset. Today, it seems still more savage in its assault on the pampered, hypocritical West. “It's only among us Soviet people that defenders of the West's ideals can be found,” Mr Zinoviev wrote.
Even more disappointing to him, austere and idealistic as he was, were the self-important and subsidised marionettes of the émigré world. He had got away from the “swamp of the idiocies, vulgarities and lies that is Soviet ideology, only to be forced to plunge head first into the even more idiotic, vulgar and lying marsh of anti-Sovietism.”
That was a bit harsh. Not all Western support was self-interested, rejoicing at the discomfiture of the Soviet enemy; some Westerners genuinely desired Russia to be free. But when, eventually, those freedoms came, Mr Zinoviev was still not happy. He loathed Mikhail Gorbachev's half-baked perestroika reforms, parodying them in another book, “Katastroika”. He detested Boris Yeltsin, the first president of post-Soviet Russia, seeing him as a pawn of the cold war's vainglorious victors.
Even before he returned to live in Moscow in 1999, he took up causes that mystified his fans and delighted nostalgic communists. He strongly supported Serbia against what he saw as Western aggression, and later became a leading member of an outfit set up to champion its leader, Slobodan Milosevic, against war-crimes charges. He became an increasingly ardent defender of the Soviet Union. Stalin had rightly punished him for “terrorism”, he said. Brezhnev was too soft on dissidents. His individualism found Western conformism worse than Soviet collectivism.
He scorned Vladimir Putin's Russia, describing it last September as a “hybrid, a hare with horns”. Its ingredients, he said, were “hidden Sovietism, elements of Western values and the retarded feudalism of the Russian Orthodox church.”

Progressive regression
Mr Zinoviev's contrarian approach, cynical and idealistic by turns, reflected one school of the Russian intelligentsia. By contrast, Mr Solzhenitsyn, another ex-émigré, though no fan of either the West or modern Russia, has remained staunchly pro-clerical and patriotic. But Mr Zinoviev's émigré counterparts still found his intellectual journey fascinating. Dmitry Mikheyev, a former political prisoner and physicist turned teacher of Western-style leadership to Moscow businessmen, compared him to a character in a Dostoevsky novel: “someone not entirely sane and rather idealistic, sensitive, emotional, full of contradictions.”
His intellectual mischief-making may have been tasteless, but it was not rancorous; there was a playful, good-humoured streak. Vladimir Bukovsky, a consistently anti-communist dissident settled in Cambridge, once asked him why, to the dismay of his friends, he was suddenly defending Stalin. “Anyone can attack Stalin,” Mr Zinoviev replied. “It's more interesting to find arguments in favour of him; without Stalin, my family would still be peasants.” Mr Bukovsky countered that the victims of Stalin's purges seemed a high price to pay for the Zinoviev family's elevation; Mr Zinoviev assented with good grace.
Mapping his intellectual journey was complicated by his delight in misleading gullible Westerners. In his teenage years, he claimed, he had been sent to Siberia (fresh from being top of the class at the Moscow Institute of Philosophy, Literature and History) for plotting to kill Stalin. According to one of his oldest friends, this tale was pure invention. Mr Zinoviev was “a brilliant mystifier”. That applied to his views and his life alike.

[Qazaq]

http://www.centrasia.org/news2.php4?st=1148425560

The guy is smart. He talks sense.


СССР - это ошибка человечества!

[UzLand]

СССР - это ошибка человечества!

А мне кажется, что ты - ошибка человечества:)

[Qazaq]

А мне кажется, что ты - ошибка человечества:)
сартёнок, не груби

[Laskier]

сартёнок, не груби

Ей, Qazaq, qai auldan qaship shiqtin. Aitatin sozing bolsa jo'nin ait, basinga eshtenge kirmese aulinga qait. :cool:

Sozinge qarap, shini kerek Qazaqqa vashe uqsamaisin. :?

[Qazaq]

Ей, Qazaq, qai auldan qaship shiqtin. Aitatin sozing bolsa jo'nin ait, basinga eshtenge kirmese aulinga qait. :cool:

Sozinge qarap, shini kerek Qazaqqa vashe uqsamaisin. :?

слушай, кишлачник :

во первых - я казах и горд этим;
во вторых - по поводу СССР я высказал свое ИМХО одной фразой;
в третьих - UzLand-а я всегда уважал за его грамотные посты, но после того как он оскорбил меня, я его перестал уважать!

[Qazaq]

Ей, Qazaq, qai auldan qaship shiqtin. Aitatin sozing bolsa jo'nin ait, basinga eshtenge kirmese aulinga qait. :cool:

Sozinge qarap, shini kerek Qazaqqa vashe uqsamaisin. :?

Алматыда турады екенсин, егер ангимен бар болса жаз почтага xyz777@yandex.ru. Кездесу жерин аныктап,
Кездесемиз, сойлесемиз :cool:

[UzLand]

сартёнок, не груби

Грубить ведь начал ты. А я тебе сказал все логически и математически. Ведь 2+2=4 так? И если СССР - ошибка человечества, то и ты - ошибка человечества, потому что ты в ней жил. Если б не СССР, ты бы не родился, может и твои родители не родились бы. В истории все связано цепочкой. Оторвешь хоть одну цепь, ход истории полностью меняется. Не было бы очень многого. Или я не прав?

[Qazaq]

Грубить ведь начал ты. А я тебе сказал все логически и математически. Ведь 2+2=4 так? И если СССР - ошибка человечества, то и ты - ошибка человечества, потому что ты в ней жил. Если б не СССР, ты бы не родился, может и твои родители не родились бы. В истории все связано цепочкой. Оторвешь хоть одну цепь, ход истории полностью меняется. Не было бы очень многого. Или я не прав?

Ок, в каком то смысле ты прав.. Но согласись, если бы даже не было СССР, я мог бы родиться? так? .. Пусть даже во владении Царской России.

ЗЫ: Я праправнук уездного правителя Телибай-султана, и большевики отняли у него всё!!! поэтому я и злюсь:evil:

[UzLand]

Ок, в каком то смысле ты прав.. Но согласись, если бы даже не было СССР, я мог бы родиться? так? .. Пусть даже во владении Царской России.

ЗЫ: Я праправнук уездного правителя Телибай-султана, и большевики отняли у него всё!!! поэтому я и злюсь:evil:

Тут шансы 50 на 50. Потому что для этого надо знать где и как твои родители познакомились и быть может при зачатии тебя, будь не СССР, а царская Россия, они могли оказаться чуть в другом месте и могли бы зачатием заняться на час раньше или позже. Вообщем, человечек родился бы, но это был бы не ты:)

[shady_lady]

Not just one ur family lost everything
There are many people like this
However, I do not think that USSR was too bad to accuse it politics
All types of gov have bad and good sides
However , according to Plato, social-communistic society wasa perfect one while democracy (and tirany) is worst one.
Be happy do not worry:D

[UzLand]

Not just one ur family lost everything
There are many people like this
However, I do not think that USSR was too bad to accuse it politics
All types of gov have bad and good sides
However , according to Plato, social-communistic society wasa perfect one while democracy (and tirany) is worst one.
Be happy do not worry:D

I think the best form of government for Uzbekistan taking into consideration its population, traditions and life-style is a socialist one.

[shady_lady]

while you think I wish =)
Be happy don't worry