Shame to muslims.

[Black]

What a shame. The enemies of Islam doing anything they want, but muslims can not say anything. Shame on us. We let our Brothers and Sisters killed and let our land occupied, our houses destroyed. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians) As Umar al Faruq said: Islam made us powerfull, if we turn away from it, we will be humiliated. and today we are humiliated. Not because our enemy(s) is strong, but because we are weak.
Not a single muslim country said anything against Israeli agression. Were there Prophet :saws: and his sahabas, would they let such things happen? They would die, but would not let such shame fall on them.
I personally did nothing to end this occupation and I fear that I will be questioned very hard.....
You guys what did you do? When all this end?

[Aziz]

In my humble opinion that the best way to take AlAqsa back is to pray the 5 daily prayers. I just wonder, what is the percentage of Muslims who pray all 5 daily prayers in time???
I think, less tham 30%.

[Alesser]

I remember telling this story before, but I felt telling it one more time. I know a Sheikh who lives in US, but he travels a lot in a path of Allah s.b.v. This event happened a long time ago, before Israel and Palastine started fighting each other. This Sheikh and his brothers went to Palestine and decided to pray in Al-Aqsa Masjid, I do not remember exatly salat they were praying, but I believe that it was a dzuhr salat. Muazzin was making Adhan and calling people to pray, but there were only maximum about 10 people in the Masjid. After making his Adhan, Muazzin started leaving and one of the brothers asked him to stay and join them to pray and he was shocked by Muazzin's respond. Muazzin told him "I get paid only to make Adhan, not to pray". Yes brothers, this is a true story and it really happened. Everything has a reason and everything is from Allah s.b.v. If we Muslims do not value and thank Allah s.b.v. for His blessings, we will easily become one of the loosers. Thats what happened with Palestine, before not many were going to Al-Aqsa and now many dieng to get it back from Jewish. I guess, it is human nature who understands the value of something after it is gonr or taken away... May Allah s.b.v. give us power to reunite with each other and overcome these hardships....
Assalomu Alaykum!

[Alouddin]

some ppl are doing some thing...

U.S. MUST STEP IN TO END ISRAELI ASSAULT ON GAZA (http://app.e2ma.net/app/view:CampaignPublic/id:2785.308785863/rid:aa3191cc1974fa9dbf6e3d643cf7746c)

[Vector]

You guys what did you do? When all this end?

There are a lot of people doing something about this, but their efforts are useless unless governments of muslim countries do something major against such agressions...too many interests are involved in the political and economical environment of arab countries so that they can't be (feared) in opposition to USA and Israel, they just critisize them not do major steps against them, even though they can influence very well...

another thing, many UN resolutions against Israel aggressions are actually blocked by USA....

[Black]

Good article. Must read.

And Israel Shall Be Safe Again (http://www.islamonline.net/English/Muslim_Affairs/Asia/PoliticsEconomy/2006/06/03.shtml)

The US administration defended the June 9 murder of a Gaza family as an Israeli right to defend itself. BBC International refused to see the Palestinian attack on an Israeli military installation on June 25 as a Palestinian right to self-defense. To the contrary, it was Israel who once again went “scrambling to defend itself." It’s unclear how many Palestinians must die before Israel delivers a convincing “blow” to its unruly neighbors, and before life goes back to the way it was intended to be — Palestinians being starved, humiliated, and slaughtered at the hands of Israel. Only then, shall Israel be safe once more.

[Black]

In my humble opinion that the best way to take AlAqsa back is to pray the 5 daily prayers. I just wonder, what is the percentage of Muslims who pray all 5 daily prayers in time???
I think, less tham 30%.
So think I. When I watch Palestinians carring guns and shouting, I think how many of them do follow Islam properly.

[Aziz]

More and more Muslim people are being killed right now...
I wonder what the world would do if they were Israelis???

[Studieren12]

Originally Posted by Aziz:
In my humble opinion that the best way to take AlAqsa back is to pray the 5 daily prayers.
I agree with Aziz here. That is the best way to help those people but your rhetorical question is also true indeed not even 5, but most of us don't do it even once a day.
Originally Posted by Black: So think I. When I watch Palestinians carring guns and shouting, I think how many of them do follow Islam properly.
Simple illustration of how religion has become the motive or reason for war which brings some profit to certain number of people or even organizations. At the mean time I think and wonder how many of those leaders really care for what they say and for what they bring as reasons in order to have people be involved in the war.

[Delf]

Noone will support Palestinians.
Why? Because they blackmailed Israel and threatened to kill captured Israeli soldier unless their demands will be fulfilled by Israeli government.

The way Palestinians acted is a recipe for a disaster. And they are facing that disaster right now.

Unless Palestinian people denounce violence and protest in a civilized manner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha), they will receive no support from outside world.


Delf.

[Abu Hurayra]

Noone will support Palestinians.
Why? Because they blackmailed Israel and threatened to kill captured Israeli soldier unless their demands will be fulfilled by Israeli government.
Yes they maybe threatened. But why dont you see or bring the daily facts where Israelis daily destroy houses(since 2000-2006 more than 2000 houses were destroyed in the theritory of Palestine (illegally)) and kill people including women, children(since 2000 more that 545 children killed)? (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C3994F6B-9576-4702-94E3-73EA1470182E.htm)??

The way Palestinians acted is a recipe for a disaster. And they are facing that disaster right now.

Unless Palestinian people denounce violence and protest in a civilized manner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha), they will receive no support from outside world.


Delf.
Thanks for mentioning "civilized manner". Have you been 1 day in Phalastine
I can also bring thousands of links, but to watch one ordinary day
of Palestines if enough.

Strongly recommend to watch this Documentary film taken by Humans (dont automatically ignore this link, dont worry its is not taken by muslims)

PS: Delf be more realistic ;)

peace!

[Delf]

Yes they maybe threatened. But why dont you see or bring the daily facts where Israelis daily destroy houses(since 2000-2006 more than 2000 houses were destroyed in the theritory of Palestine (illegally)) and kill people including women, children(since 2000 more that 545 children killed)? (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C3994F6B-9576-4702-94E3-73EA1470182E.htm)??

Thanks for mentioning "civilized manner". Have you been 1 day in Phalastine
I can also bring thousands of links, but to watch one ordinary day (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=palestine)
of Palestines if enough.

Strongly recommend to watch this Documentary film taken by Humans (dont automatically ignore this link, dont worry its is not taken by muslims) (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=palestine)

PS: Delf be more realistic ;)

peace!

That is exactly what I am talking about. How does Israel justify all that in front of international community? Just think for a minute.


Delf.

[Black]

Noone will support Palestinians.

Of course, who can dare go against the one whose big brother is Uncle Sam.

Why? Because they blackmailed Israel and threatened to kill captured Israeli soldier unless their demands will be fulfilled by Israeli government.

What they asked? They asked to free women and children. Threatened to kill a soldier. YES a soldier not a civilian, who by his own will went to serve an army which occupies their (Palestinian) land. There is nothing wrong killing a soldier of an army which occupies your land. Don't you agree? That's what did our forefathers: killed the occupiers until they left our lands, like nazis in 41-45 years.

The way Palestinians acted is a recipe for a disaster. And they are facing that disaster right now.
The Palestinians are facing disaster right from the beginning of occupation, i.e. from 1947. Interseting that you did not know that. Their homes were and are destroyed constantly, their villages are destroyed, population are massacred, abused....

Unless Palestinian people denounce violence and protest in a civilized manner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha), they will receive no support from outside world.


Delf.

Heh, don't make me laugh man. Do you really believe that someone from the West (East can do nothing, East at the moment is the dog of the West) do help Palestinians if they stop violence (or whatever they do). Zinoists will not stop unless they achieve their goals, i.e. build a "pure Jewish state in between the rivers Nile and Euphratus" by eliminating other nations (guess in three tries who are they). You should be naive or do not understand politics if you think that in a current position of the World Politics (especially American) that anyone will help Palestinians.
Do you think that if Palestians stop fighting then the Zionists (or let's say Israelies) follow them (i.e. stop attacking Palestinian lands), stop killing innocent Palestinians, women, babies,old people and men, let the Palestinian refugees come back to their homeland, let them build their homes, or get back their forefathers' homes? Definitely NO, because zinoists declared that they will never let Palestinians come back. That is the chilly truth and everybody knows that. Whatever Palestinians do, zionists continue grabbing their land, killing them one by one.
If it was not true, if they were indeed searching for a kiddnapped soldier, they would not have killed 20 innocent Palestinian civilians (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060710/wl_nm/mideast_dc;_ylt=Ahgkn7gpweRgMpmOI4G4f3kUewgF;_ylu= X3oDMTA4NTMzazIyBHNlYwMxNjk2).
Israeli forces have destroyed a main power station in Gaza and killed about 50 people, including 20 civilians, residents said.
But the Palestinian life is cheap. Since beginning of the second Palestinian intifada in 2000, about 1000 Isrealies and more than 8000 (many of whom women and children) Palestinians have been killed. If there is a justice in the world, why the countries and leaders support the one killed 8000 people but condemn the one who killed 1000? Where is the juistice and equality. I am not telling that killing innocent Isreali civilians is ok, but why it is OK to kill innocent Palestinians just because they are Palestinians?! Familiar stituation: Double standards, isn't it?

So, Delf, don't take it offensive, it was just thinking aloud on the issue. I know that it is not noteworthy the muslim opinion in Palestian issue. If it was not so (if somebosy listened to muslims' opinion, the Palestinian issue would have been solved already.

So what do you offer to Palestinians? To sit and wait untill Isreal grabs all their lands, expell all of them (the best case) or massacre all of them? What do you propose? What do you think Palestinians should do in current situation?

N.B. I would like to remind you that I was always against suicide bombings and etc. killings of innocent civilians and I do not support Palestinian militants doing so, while I do support their struggle.

[Abdug'ofur]

Our prophet Muhammad(PBUH) has told that the war between arabs and jews would long untill the day of Judgement. When arab-israib conflict is solved, Qiyamah will begin...

By the way, Mr Black, your signature is very beautiful and also needs an interpretation. Today I hardly see that everything is judged by what Allah revealed even in muslim countries. It is very confusing as well as horible situation. I would like to know how to apply these verses to our modern world.
thank u

[Black]

Our prophet Muhammad(PBUH) has told that the war between arabs and jews would long untill the day of Judgement. When arab-israib conflict is solved, Qiyamah will begin...
Brother can you give us the source of what you said. I never neard such hadis before.

By the way, Mr Black, your signature is very beautiful and also needs an interpretation. Today I hardly see that everything is judged by what Allah revealed even in muslim countries. It is very confusing as well as horible situation. I would like to know how to apply these verses to our modern world.
thank u

Yes it is difficult today to find a society where everything is judged by what Allah revealed. But, whatever the situation is, I think, every muslim should try to judge and act by what Allah and His Messenger :saws: told us. If we muslims had followed those ayats, there would not be problems like the one between Palestinian and Isreal today, simply muslims would not allow that thing happen. But today we are not following Qur'an and Sunnah properly. That is the our biggest problem.

[Abdug'ofur]

Mr Black,

I have read that hadis from "Sahihi Bukhari". i try to find and post them. There was also a good news in that hadis that at the end, arabs would defeat the jews.

[Aziz]

Noone will support Palestinians.
Why? Because they blackmailed Israel and threatened to kill captured Israeli soldier unless their demands will be fulfilled by Israeli government.

The way Palestinians acted is a recipe for a disaster. And they are facing that disaster right now.

Unless Palestinian people denounce violence and protest in a civilized manner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha), they will receive no support from outside world.


Delf.


Palestinians brought a group of dancers from the Bask (Spain) to dance near the "racist" wall separating Israel and Palestine, in order to get rid of evil spirits and ask peace to come to this land.

Do you know what was the Israeli "civilized" reaction toward this???
the started shooting and firing them.

poor people!!!(bechora:? )

[lips]

I'm saddened too all the time when I think of the Palestinians, especially when I watch TV and see what happens to the children and women. Sometimes, i come across Palestinians who come to this part of the world in search of a better life but you know what, my neighbouring country, Thailand had recently massacred many Muslim men in the southern part of Thailand and blamed it as terrorist attacks. These are merely propaganda. The truth is the government does a genocide. They intend to get rid of these Muslims because they seek freedom for autonomy and want to live as Muslims. You never know the cruelty of others including 9/11 when its Bush administration and not Muslim terrorist that destroyed the WTC. If you had seen the video, it was actually bombs planted in the building that killed everyone, not the airplanes. That was a just a cover up and Moussad is definitely involved.

As Muslims, we can always do solat hajat in groups and pray and doa.
What say you?

[Delf]

So what do you offer to Palestinians? To sit and wait untill Isreal grabs all their lands, expell all of them (the best case) or massacre all of them? What do you propose? What do you think Palestinians should do in current situation?

Do you know how British rule in India came to an end (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence_movement#The_Gandhian_generati on)?

Gandhi always stressed that the movement should not be directed against the British people, but the unjust system of foreign administration. British officers and leaders are human beings, emphasized Gandhi, and capable of the same mistakes of intolerance, racism and cruelty as the common Indian or any other human being. Punishment for these sins was God's task, and not the mission of the freedom movement. But the liberation of 350 million people from colonial and social tyranny definitely was.

During his first nationwide satyagraha, Gandhi urged the people to boycott British educational institutions, law courts, and products; to resign from government employment; to refuse to pay taxes; and to forsake British titles and honours. Although this came too late to influence the framing of the new Government of India Act of 1919, the magnitude of disorder resulting from the movement was unparalleled and presented a new challenge to foreign rule. Over 10 million people protested according to Gandhi's guidelines in all cities and thousands of towns and villages in every part of the country. But Gandhi made a tough decision and called off the campaign in 1922 because of an atrocious murder of policemen in Chauri Chaura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauri_Chaura) by a mob of agitators. He was deeply distressed with the act, and the possibility that crowds of protestors would lose control like this in different parts of the country, causing the fight for national freedom to degenerate into a chaotic orgy of bloodshed, where Englishmen would be murdered by mobs, and the British forces would retaliate against innocent civilians. He felt Indians needed more discipline and had to understand that they were not out to punish the British, but to expose the cruelty and evil behind their discrimination and tyranny. As much as liberating India, he hoped to reform the British, see them as friends and break the back of racism and colonialism across the world.
Unfortunately Palestinians are choosing to struggle with violence and force - things that governments of repression excel at.



Delf.

[Black]

Do you know how British rule in India came to an end (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_independence_movement#The_Gandhian_generati on)?




Unfortunately Palestinians are choosing to struggle with violence and force - things that governments of repression excel at.



Delf.

You are wrong to compare Indian struggle with Palestinian. In India, Britons did not plan to massacre all indians in order to build their country there. But in case of Palestine, it is quite different situation. The goal of the Zionist government is to build pure jewish state on that land, whatever the price is. So Ganghi’s method of non violence civil disobedience is not applicable here. For British Empire India was just a colony from where they were getting much wealth. It was not in Empire’s interests to massacre Indians and clean India from indigenous population. True they had oppressive politics, sometimes they killed innocent people, but all those politics were done in order to keep Indians under control, under fear. The more Indians feared Empire, the more wealth they could get from the colony. It was meaningless for them (British Empire) to kill all Indians, because they were wealth generators for the Empire. Besides this, there were many other reasons for Britain to depart from India, after the WWII Britain could not stay an occupier any more. And at that time Britain was not capable any more to keep India under its rule. Briefly there were many reasons Britain to depart from India.

The war had sapped a lot of the economic, political and military life-blood of the Empire, and the powerful Indian resistance had shattered the spirit and will of the British government. It had made it clear that after the war, a greater movement would be launched and would succeed, as no excuse or distraction from the issue would remain. In addition, the British people and the British Army seemed unwilling to back a policy of repression in India and other parts of the Empire even as their own country lay shattered by the war's ravages. The writing was on the wall, and freedom only a matter of time.

BUT, Palestinian case is different. The non violent resistance comes on hand to zionists and they will destroy the whole nation. That is what they need-not resisting them. In case of India, the Empire needed those indigenous to gain the wealth. In Palestine zionists do not need the indigenous people, in fact they have to get rid off them (you know why). In India rulers (Englishmen) and ordinary people lived in the same society, in this case if indians rejected to obey them (Englishmen) they would have big problems, because the main labour force and wealth generators were indians. If they stopped working, paying taxes and etc. cooperation with Britons, there were no point left for the rulers to stay in India. Imagine that none in India is working or doing anything, Englishmen could not get a single penny out off it. But in Palestine, what will change if the Palestinians stop cooperating zionists (are they cooperating at all)? Nothing! Nothing will hurt Israel, Israel does not depend on anything from Palestinians. Or maybe with the exception of a small workforce of the Palestinians who are hired by Israelis, which can be replaced by them very easily.
Or you may suggest the Palestinians to file a case into UN or to the International Court in Hague? If something would depend on UN resolutions, there would have been a Paradise in Palestine right now.
I think you now understand that Gandhi’s methods are not applicable in Palestine, the only way is to struggle. Otherwise they will be erased from the face of the Earth.
All muslim nations must unity to solve this problem. The West is not interested in solving this problem. Muslims should restore justice and equality.
Non muslims (Jews, Cristians and others) lived peacefully with muslims under the Islamic rule for centuries, until fascist Zionists start their occupation those lands. Therefore muslim rule should be returned to those lands.

[Delf]

BUT, Palestinian case is different. The non violent resistance comes on hand to zionists and they will destroy the whole nation.
WRONG.
It is terrorism and violent resistance that comes on hand of Israeli government. Every incident when a citizen of Israel is harmed or killed by Palestinians justifies further segregation and repression of Palestinians. Remember, it is the duty of the goverment of Israel to provide safety for its citizens.

That is what they need-not resisting them.
You confuse non-violent resistance and non-resistance. I understand that it may be confusing at first, but there is a great distinction between non-resistance and non-violent resistance. Non-violent resistance requires a great deal of dedication, patience and willingness for self-sacrifice to achieve the goal.

But in Palestine, what will change if the Palestinians stop cooperating zionists (are they cooperating at all)? Nothing! Nothing will hurt Israel, Israel does not depend on anything from Palestinians.
Israel's image would be damaged to the extent that many countries will impose economic sanctions. World will be with Palestinians, and not with the government of Israel. Everybody would support Palestinians. It will be only them suffering (no pictures of Israeli kids after a suicide attack). Israel would not have a single excuse for occupation. There will be a strong and continuous demand from Palestinians and the world to stop repressions.


Or you may suggest the Palestinians to file a case into UN or to the International Court in Hague?

No, at least not until the world will be with Palestinians and not with government of Israel.

Unfortunately, certain political and religious groups dupe Palestinians and other muslim nations into thinking that Jewish people are their enemy. And if one kills a Jewish, then he is fighting the enemy. On the other hand, citizens of Israel are also duped by their politicians into thinking that if they do not fight the enemy, they will all be either killed or forced to exile. The rhetoric of fundamentalists and relgious radicals from muslim side is the best excuse for Israeli government to continue it's opression of Palestinian people.

Read my previous quote about what Ghandi did when violence unfolded in India. And why he did it.

Belive me, if Palestinians acted as Ghandi did, they would be free in a short time. Without a war. Without hundreds and thousands of deaths.



Delf.

[Aziz]

Delf,
I have to say that you don't know Israel...

[anatoliydaev]

Delf,
I have to say that you don't know Israel...
It the most trupid comment in the forum.uz.
Here is the next stupid xomment:
Aziz,
I have to say that you don't know Israel either...

[Aziz]

It the most trupid comment in the forum.uz.
Here is the next stupid xomment:
Aziz,
I have to say that you don't know Israel either...

I'll accept that, but after you read what the "CESCR" wrote about Israel.
"CESCR" is the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

[anatoliydaev]

I'll accept that, but after you read what the "CESCR" wrote about Israel.
"CESCR" is the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.
Could you please provide the link?

[Aziz]

http://www.nashiri.net/imag/download.php

download issue #2 and scroll down to page 35.

[Black]

WRONG.
It is terrorism and violent resistance that comes on hand of Israeli government. Every incident when a citizen of Israel is harmed or killed by Palestinians justifies further segregation and repression of Palestinians. Remember, it is the duty of the goverment of Israel to provide safety for its citizens.


You confuse non-violent resistance and non-resistance. I understand that it may be confusing at first, but there is a great distinction between non-resistance and non-violent resistance. Non-violent resistance requires a great deal of dedication, patience and willingness for self-sacrifice to achieve the goal.

Israel's image would be damaged to the extent that many countries will impose economic sanctions. World will be with Palestinians, and not with the government of Israel. Everybody would support Palestinians. It will be only them suffering (no pictures of Israeli kids after a suicide attack). Israel would not have a single excuse for occupation. There will be a strong and continuous demand from Palestinians and the world to stop repressions.



No, at least not until the world will be with Palestinians and not with government of Israel.

Unfortunately, certain political and religious groups dupe Palestinians and other muslim nations into thinking that Jewish people are their enemy. And if one kills a Jewish, then he is fighting the enemy. On the other hand, citizens of Israel are also duped by their politicians into thinking that if they do not fight the enemy, they will all be either killed or forced to exile. The rhetoric of fundamentalists and relgious radicals from muslim side is the best excuse for Israeli government to continue it's opression of Palestinian people.

Read my previous quote about what Ghandi did when violence unfolded in India. And why he did it.

Belive me, if Palestinians acted as Ghandi did, they would be free in a short time. Without a war. Without hundreds and thousands of deaths.



Delf.

Delf, you are wrong. I explain it later. I am too busy now. But you are wrong.

Btw, did you read the news about zionists killing 26 civilians in Lebanon (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060713/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_lebanon), because Hezbollah captured 2 soldiers?

P.S. I read you quote about Gandi and etc.