July 27, Helsinki Commission Briefing on Uzbekistan [Archive] - Uzbekistan Online Forum

ДЖИГИТ

07-23-2006, 07:25 PM

Djigit, "для личного политического воспитания:)"

It has nothing to do with Imperialists and noone trying to make revolution in Uzbekistan. Everyone has rights to seat down and talk about "A Problem." and Believe me, It is a big Problem if noone talks about it. We still have to learn to Think Big and Broad , to deal with International issues, to be open minded, to listen and the MOST important not to be ignorant. Breafing about Uzbekistan in DC is very good Idea. Those who has an ability please go, Together, we CAN Build Better Uzbekistan!

Nu ti naivnaya, ti chto dumaesh' vsyo eto delaetsya radi demokratii?! Ti razve ne vidish' chto tvoritsya v mire, ili ti v slepuyu verish' CNN?

You say it has nothing to do with imperialism, then what the heck is those killings of innocent people by democracy fighters in Iraq, in Afganistan, in Vietnam, in Panama in the the past? Then why these pro democracy countries propagate protection of human rights whereas they protect oil fields and natural resources but regular population is dieing out there? Do you know the history of Imperialism and the course of events to claim it has nothing to do with imperialism? Do you know the agenda or at least clean history of secret services to claim that? you say that because you are naive, you think those "democratic" countries can't do bad things. You say everyone has rights to talk, yes everyone has rights to talk, but do you know that they r not only talking? Do you know that such talkings happened in the past to gather opposition against secular states and is used as information gathering for covert operations and coups? Do you know history of coups that had same puppets and shows? How can you say think Big and Broad and talk about rights when those people who organize conferences commit internaional atrocities worldwide, abusing human rughts, when these organizers excercise double standards? Do you think they care about your rights? It is their routine job to conduct such gatherings of opposition and they don't care about your rights. Their policy is divide and concour.

If you want to build better Uzbekistan, better let experts do that and instead of messing with own government, better support it at least by staying out of they way of government and not messing things up. I don't mean you, but it refers to those journalists and opposition who just play in hand to those pseudo democratic imperialists.

XXL

07-23-2006, 07:25 PM

Djigit, "для личного политического воспитания:)"

hehe.. nauchut chto i kak, chtobi sdelat vtoroy Afganistan ili postroit demokrtatiyu kak v Irake

na temu:

esli Putinu poobeshali Rossii demokratiuyu kak v Irake,

to Putin v svoyu ochered mojet poobeshat im ekologiyu kak v Hirosime.

PS: Amerikanskiye geologi sluchayyyyno natknulis na kakyu-to arabskuyu stranu, raspoljennyu nad nedrami amerikanskoy nefti.:twisted::P

lobar

07-23-2006, 08:58 PM

Nu ti naivnaya, ti chto dumaesh' vsyo eto delaetsya radi demokratii?! Ti razve ne vidish' chto tvoritsya v mire, ili ti v slepuyu verish' CNN?

You say it has nothing to do with imperialism, then what the heck is those killings of innocent people by democracy fighters in Iraq, in Afganistan, in Vietnam, in Panama in the the past? Then why these pro democracy countries propagate protection of human rights whereas they protect oil fields and natural resources but regular population is dieing out there? Do you know the history of Imperialism and the course of events to claim it has nothing to do with imperialism? Do you know the agenda or at least clean history of secret services to claim that? you say that because you are naive, you think those "democratic" countries can't do bad things. You say everyone has rights to talk, yes everyone has rights to talk, but do you know that they r not only talking? Do you know that such talkings happened in the past to gather opposition against secular states and is used as information gathering for covert operations and coups? Do you know history of coups that had same puppets and shows? How can you say think Big and Broad and talk about rights when those people who organize conferences commit internaional atrocities worldwide, abusing human rughts, when these organizers excercise double standards? Do you think they care about your rights? It is their routine job to conduct such gatherings of opposition and they don't care about your rights. Their policy is divide and concour.

If you want to build better Uzbekistan, better let experts do that and instead of messing with own government, better support it at least by staying out of they way of government and not messing things up. I don't mean you, but it refers to those journalists and opposition who just play in hand to those pseudo democratic imperialists.

Djigit,
I do not ignore anything you said about being imperialistic and other complicated thigns you have mentioned. You are right. Yes America is imperialistic Country and Yes America is doing wrong things in some parts of the world. my messeage here is What YOU can do about it ? YOU personally ? I don't think you can chang it so , lets talk about thinkgs we can change, we can make it happen. organizing conferences, breafings will help to determine International understading and educate people about other nations. if you look a it as a negavitve thing go ahed, but also never forget there is always good, positive things about everything. you see it half empty, I see it half full.

and remember change is good whether it is in DC or Denmark or Ferghana or Almaty or Somali. If someone talking about Uzbekistan these days in the world, I am for it.

Zulmat Islaganga Zulmatdur Dunyo Ziyo Istaganga Ziyodir dunyo.

Do not make yourself sweat, with all these imperialistic sionistic pseudo democratic, Huge, Sofisticated, complicated questions that people have been talking thousands years and yet came to conclusion. take the best out of everthing for you and for your people.

Question:
Who are the "Experts"? where are they ? what they were doing since 1991? (be specific please, give names) Kazakztan living better that us... (NO offence to kazakh people)

P.S. If you happen to reply to my post I'd ask you not to get personal about it. like you did on the previous one, calling me naive...I do not appreciate that. I'd like to see it as a conversation of two grown up people. Thanks in advance

melo

07-23-2006, 09:04 PM

Question:
Who are the "Experts"? where are they ? what they were doing since 1991? (be specific please, give names) Kazakztan living better that us... (NO offence to kazakh people)

What you should take offense to is that Kyrgyz people are also living better than Uzbek people. Obviously something is going wrong in Uzbekistan that a country with no natural resources is performing better than one with ample resources.

lobar

07-23-2006, 09:09 PM

What you should take offense to is that Kyrgyz people are also living better than Uzbek people. Obviously something is going wrong in Uzbekistan that a country with no natural resources is performing better than one with ample resources.
Trying to say something like that here to people but some would not think that way ?

melo

07-23-2006, 09:14 PM

Trying to say something like that here to people but some would not think that way ?

I was in Osh, Kyrgyzstan and saw lots of people from Uzbekistan come to find work. There is also a thread about uzbek girls going to Osh for work and being forced to prostitution. I think that is good evidence. That and every statistic I have ever seen shows Kyrgyz average income higher than Uzbek average income. The problem is our forum is not the average Uzbekistan citizen and they do not see the realities of the economy in Uzbekistan. I think it is terrible and unacceptable what is happening to average people in Uzbekistan. There is no good reason why a huge part of the population is being ignored.

ДЖИГИТ

07-23-2006, 09:56 PM

Djigit,
I do not ignore anything you said about being imperialistic and other complicated thigns you have mentioned. You are right. Yes America is imperialistic Country and Yes America is doing wrong things in some parts of the world. my messeage here is What YOU can do about it ? YOU personally ? I don't think you can chang it so , lets talk about thinkgs we can change, we can make it happen. organizing conferences, breafings will help to determine International understading and educate people about other nations. if you look a it as a negavitve thing go ahed, but also never forget there is always good, positive things about everything. you see it half empty, I see it half full.

and remember change is good whether it is in DC or Denmark or Ferghana or Almaty or Somali. If someone talking about Uzbekistan these days in the world, I am for it.

Zulmat Islaganga Zulmatdur Dunyo Ziyo Istaganga Ziyodir dunyo.

Do not make yourself sweat, with all these imperialistic sionistic pseudo democratic, Huge, Sofisticated, complicated questions that people have been talking thousands years and yet came to conclusion. take the best out of everthing for you and for your people.

Question:
Who are the "Experts"? where are they ? what they were doing since 1991? (be specific please, give names) Kazakztan living better that us... (NO offence to kazakh people)

P.S. If you happen to reply to my post I'd ask you not to get personal about it. like you did on the previous one, calling me naive...I do not appreciate that. I'd like to see it as a conversation of two grown up people. Thanks in advance

We can do a lot, let's say stay out of those groups and their conferences, contribute something to your motherland and nation, to humanity. As for the nagative thing, it is what it is, it is proven by history that those countries have carried out dirty politics over many sovereign nations involving opposition of the target country. Read the heading:

"HELSINKI COMMISSION TO HOLD BRIEFING ON PROSPECTS FOR POLITICAL CHANGE IN UZBEKISTAN" - they want to change political hierarchy in Uzbekistan to make it beneficial for their policy since Karimov doesn't suit them anymore.

Kazakstan having better times than Uzbekistan because of their natural resources, had Nazarbaev blocked oil to the West, He would also become a scapegoat, though they have argument for him too (kazahGate), but it is all temporary, it is next 20-40 years that oil fields will get empty all over the world and that's what making imperialists occupy sovereign nations under democracy. It is kazakh oil that is making currency ratio go different, but in terms of prices and earnings in the country, they are not far up from us, living standards are almost same.

The opposition is thinking about its goal -how to get to the top of the government and imperialists are using them for their own pirposes.

and remember change is good whether it is in DC or Denmark or Ferghana or Almaty or Somali. If someone talking about Uzbekistan these days in the world, I am for it.
what kind of change do you mean?

I didn't think that the word naive is bad, there's nothing bad in it, one should be able to face the conversation and not take each word personal or normal expression as personal, if you are grown up person indeed.

UzLand

07-23-2006, 10:57 PM

You say it has nothing to do with imperialism, then what the heck is those killings of innocent people by democracy fighters in Iraq, in Afganistan, in Vietnam, in Panama in the the past?

So how can you explain then daily killings of innocent Iraqi and Afghan civilians by the local rebels? Do you approve these killings? Every day...

lobar

07-23-2006, 11:34 PM

We can do a lot, let's say stay out of those groups and their conferences, contribute something to your motherland and nation, to humanity. As for the nagative thing, it is what it is, it is proven by history that those countries have carried out dirty politics over many sovereign nations involving opposition of the target country. Read the heading:

"HELSINKI COMMISSION TO HOLD BRIEFING ON PROSPECTS FOR POLITICAL CHANGE IN UZBEKISTAN" - they want to change political hierarchy in Uzbekistan to make it beneficial for their policy since Karimov doesn't suit them anymore.

Kazakstan having better times than Uzbekistan because of their natural resources, had Nazarbaev blocked oil to the West, He would also become a scapegoat, though they have argument for him too (kazahGate), but it is all temporary, it is next 20-40 years that oil fields will get empty all over the world and that's what making imperialists occupy sovereign nations under democracy. It is kazakh oil that is making currency ratio go different, but in terms of prices and earnings in the country, they are not far up from us, living standards are almost same.

The opposition is thinking about its goal -how to get to the top of the government and imperialists are using them for their own pirposes.

what kind of change do you mean?

I didn't think that the word naive is bad, there's nothing bad in it, one should be able to face the conversation and not take each word personal or normal expression as personal, if you are grown up person indeed.

Well how about it, you stay out of the conferences and briefings conserned Uzbekistan and I'll stay in. And let's stop it here since you are walking out of conversation with kazak oil and stuff and if Current Uzbek Government suiting you i'm happy for you. keep it that way.

... and about change.. Any change men, any change is good! ;)

Ulug'bek

07-23-2006, 11:37 PM

Begunoh odamlarni, ayollar va bolalarni o'ldirgan Imperialist va sionistlar bilan ish qilayotgan jurnaslitlar - huquqni himoya qiluvchilarga, oppozitsiyaga O'zbekistonda joy yo'q!!!

Endi O'zbekiston hech qachon imperialistlar bilan birga bo'midi, bu turgan gap, o'zbek qochoqlari chet elda qolib ketvurishadi, O'zbekistonga qayta olmaydilar, ularning avlodlari ham ham chet ellik bo'lib ketishadi. Shu ularning tanlagan yo'li. Karimov odamlarni otdi deb chet ellarga - Amerika, Evropaga jurnalistlar boshqalar qochishdi, vaholanki o'sha erdagi hukumatlar qanchadan qancha begunoh odamlar, butun mamlakatlarni psevdo demokratiya asosida o'ldirib tashlashyapti, biz har kuni imperialistlarning haqiqiy yuzini ko'rvommiz. Endi qayoqdagi chet eliklar O'zbekistonni taqdirini hal qiladimi, O'zbekiston haqida briefing qilib inqilob rejalashtiradimi? O'zbekiston egilmidi imperialistlarga.

Xup , 1 kun AQSh ning pinjiga 2-kun esa Rusiya va Xitoyning pinjiga kirayotgan va bu ishni faqat kursisi uchun qilayotgan, 16 yildan beri xalqni doim aldagan IAK va uning bir to'da laganbardorlari va jallodlaridan boshqa kimga bor joy o'zi O'zbekistonda?!
Boshida Rus imperialisti yomon, AQSh imperialisti tillo, endi esa aksi bo'lib qoldimi?! Qani mantiq?!
Og'zingizni to'ldirib aytayotgan O'zbekiston bu o'zbeklar deganimi yoki IAKmi? O'zbeklar bugun non yoki jon deb Marsgacha otlanishgan, hamma pul topish uchun chetga chiqib qozoqu-qirgizdan tortib eshagu-pishakning xizmatini qilishgacha tayyor, albatta bundan bir to'da o'zbekni qon qaqshatayotgan jallodlar va hech ilojini topolmagan kishilar mustasno!

IAKni haqiqiy yuzini 16 yilda ham ko'rolmaganlarga achinsa arziydi!

Mana shunaqa, xalqni davomli tarzda zulm ichida saqlashga chorlaydigan yozuvlar juda jahlimni chiqaradi-da.

guest1234

07-23-2006, 11:37 PM

Kazakstan having better times than Uzbekistan because of their natural resources, had Nazarbaev blocked oil to the West, He would also become a scapegoat, though they have argument for him too (kazahGate), but it is all temporary, it is next 20-40 years that oil fields will get empty all over the world and that's what making imperialists occupy sovereign nations under democracy. It is kazakh oil that is making currency ratio go different, but in terms of prices and earnings in the country, they are not far up from us, living standards are almost same.

My friend, living standards in Kz are a lot better than you might suppose.
Just cross the border - you'd feel the difference.Their economy is a lot healthier & much more socially contributing (a pension of $200-250 is a normal thing in Kazakh province). And those with education can make $1000-2000 at regular managerial positions (nothing to do with briberies - salary, as is :cool: ).
Their banking system is even better than the one of Russia (I'm staying away from Uzbek one). Let's say you want to take car loan in Uzb - can you? What about if it is not UzDaewoo car? I doubt they'd give it to you at all, if you are a regular middle class worker (and there is almost no middle class in Uzb., remember). Apart from giving bribe, of course. Let's forget about a house mortgage - nonsense in Uzb.
A lot of it comes from INVESTMENT.(Russian, Chinese, American, etc.) - which is always welcome. A lot of Kz guys went to those imperialist & zionist countries in Europe & North America to get experience in economics, banking, technology, industrial fields..(no political schience students here, I guess;)). Well, results are obvious..
Very simple indicator of economy - Real Estate. Do you know how much apartments in Almaty cost? $200.000 for 2-bedroom apt. is not the highest price and not in the best part of the city. I'm not talking about Astana, which is more expensive.
Their natural resources..does Uzb lack them? I wouldn't say so. The difference is about where does the money from these resources go - several families in Uzb, compared to a lot fairer contribution in Kz. The Process Uzb is in now has taken place in Kz in early 90-ies.Their economy is open, they can afford themselves investing in other countries (Kg, Georgia, for example).
One more thing - Kz in general, and it's leader in particular - they have this wise ability to be in friends with everybody - Russia, USA, Europe, China - even Uzb (weather in IAK's house permitting) and benefit from everybody's alliance. To be frank - I envy Kz's having such a leader, who cares about its people and does positive politics in the long run.
And uzbek guys wouldn't be their "mardikorlar", as well as uzbek girls wouldn't serve their houses of shame if "in terms of prices and earnings in the country, they are not far up from us, living standards are almost same.", as you said.
It's a lot about leader - he is the captain.
Kz can be taken an example from, especially it's leader, despite Nazarbaev's having stolen a lot, and being one of the richest people on Earth (inofficially).
And, Djigit, please don't make any statements before you visit Almaty just for a day. Better to see once, than hear hundred times.I was there 6 months ago, that's where I take credits from. I doubt you've visited Almaty or any other major city of Kz in past 4-5 years.
Uzb is at least 10 years behind Kz and these guys are not waiting till Uzb makes up.
Uzb government does act like a real prostitute (Mr. IAK particularly) with its f**king mustaqillik.No offence.

P.S. Lobar, I love your avatar

P.P.S. Mods, sorry if most of it was offtop

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 12:53 AM

Uzland
So how can you explain then daily killings of innocent Iraqi and Afghan civilians by the local rebels? Do you approve these killings? Every day...

Chto poslujilo etim ubystvam, v pervuyu ochered' nelegal'naya okkupatsiya suverennoy strani, chto i poslujilo destabilizatsii regiona i krovoprolitiyu i ubiystvu nevinnih detey i jenshin. Eto bilo pod ruku Israilyu, t.k. nestabil'nim regionom legko upravlyat'. Do okkupatsii lyudi jili v bezopasnosti hotya v bednosti, no kto etu bednost' sozdal - ta je Amerika i Zapad so svoimi sanktsiyami i dvoynimi standartami.

lobar
Well how about it, you stay out of the conferences and briefings conserned Uzbekistan and I'll stay in. And let's stop it here since you are walking out of conversation with kazak oil and stuff and if Current Uzbek Government suiting you i'm happy for you. keep it that way.

... and about change.. Any change men, any change is good! ;)

I didn't walk out of the topic, you said about Kz, and I just made a comment, as for the opposition, of course I'll stay away from them.

Ulug'bek
Xup , 1 kun AQSh ning pinjiga 2-kun esa Rusiya va Xitoyning pinjiga kirayotgan va bu ishni faqat kursisi uchun qilayotgan, 16 yildan beri xalqni doim aldagan IAK va uning bir to'da laganbardorlari va jallodlaridan boshqa kimga bor joy o'zi O'zbekistonda?!
Boshida Rus imperialisti yomon, AQSh imperialisti tillo, endi esa aksi bo'lib qoldimi?! Qani mantiq?!
Og'zingizni to'ldirib aytayotgan O'zbekiston bu o'zbeklar deganimi yoki IAKmi? O'zbeklar bugun non yoki jon deb Marsgacha otlanishgan, hamma pul topish uchun chetga chiqib qozoqu-qirgizdan tortib eshagu-pishakning xizmatini qilishgacha tayyor, albatta bundan bir to'da o'zbekni qon qaqshatayotgan jallodlar va hech ilojini topolmagan kishilar mustasno!

IAKni haqiqiy yuzini 16 yilda ham ko'rolmaganlarga achinsa arziydi!

Mana shunaqa, xalqni davomli tarzda zulm ichida saqlashga chorlaydigan yozuvlar juda jahlimni chiqaradi-da.

Butun dunyoda separatist harakatlarini olib boruvchi imperialistlar orasida qolgandan kegin kichik mamlakatlar yuksakroqlardan yordam so'rashi tabiiy magarki mamlakatda barqarorlik, tinchlikni saqlash uchun bo'lsa u hech qanaqa pinjiga kirish deyilmaydi, bu o'sha oppozitsiya, imperialistlar bilan birga o'ynaydigan jurnalistlar to'qib chiqargan atama. Laganbardorlik hamma halqda ham bor, bu bilan O'zbekistonni yomon ko'rsatish keremas, chunki yahshi insonlar ham ko'p O'zbekistonda, iqtisodiy qiyinchiliklar bor yo'q emas, lekin topgan ishlagan topvotti, hammani ham tanish binishlari yo'q lekin ishlashvotti, odamlar horijga ish qidirib ketvotti - rost, ba'zi birlar kasbi yo'q odamlar, ba'zi birlari boyish uchun ketadi, turgan gap, lekin hammasi vaqtincha, vaqti kelib ichki muammolani hukumat to'girlaydi, shuni vaqt va holat majbur etadi, lekin oppositsiya kelsa O'zbekistonda tinchlik yo'qoladi, huddi Iroq yoki Afg'onistonda aylanib qolishi hech gap emas chunki Rossiya va AQSH ning intereslari to'qnashib qoladi. Shu sababdan hali beri oppozitsiya O'zbekistonga yaqin ham kelomidi, kemasin ham.

Taqdir shuni taqazo qilgan ekan Rossiyaga geografik jihatdan yaqinmiz, tarihdan ham ancha uzoq aloqalar bo'gan, bo'votti ham.

Siz IAKning haqiqiy yuzini yahudiylarning ahborotlaridan bilasiz, biz ham bilamiz, qattiq qo'l, ba'zi hatolarga yo'l qo'ygan, lekin O'zbekiston mentaliteti uchun qattiq qo'l bo'lishi kere, g'arbiy ahborotlarga ishonmiman.

Man vatangado bo'lib ketganlaga achinaman, chunki ob'ektiv olib qaraganda O'zbekistonga qayta olmaydilar. O'zbekistonni tashqi siyosati hali beri o'zgarmidi.

kipchak

07-24-2006, 01:31 AM

Где то я уже говорил, но повторюсь,
человек защищающий свою Родину от агрессора - это не террорист, это патриот. Но сейчас все с ног на голову - называют повстанцем и террористом всех кто защищают свою Родину (афган, ирак, ливан, иран, сев.корея, сомали, судан, и так далее и так далее). А те кто хочет завоевать страну и высосать из нее все ресурсы - так они освободители, несущие свободу, равенство и всю остальную дребедень.

Ну еще есть люди которые отобрали землю у других, а теперь "защищают" ее от тех кто хочет ее вернуть, называя последних - террористами.

Так что все зависит как вы смотрите и что хотите видеть.

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 01:40 AM

My friend, living standards in Kz are a lot better than you might suppose.
Just cross the border - you'd feel the difference.Their economy is a lot healthier & much more socially contributing (a pension of $200-250 is a normal thing in Kazakh province). And those with education can make $1000-2000 at regular managerial positions (nothing to do with briberies - salary, as is :cool: ).
Their banking system is even better than the one of Russia (I'm staying away from Uzbek one). Let's say you want to take car loan in Uzb - can you? What about if it is not UzDaewoo car? I doubt they'd give it to you at all, if you are a regular middle class worker (and there is almost no middle class in Uzb., remember). Apart from giving bribe, of course. Let's forget about a house mortgage - nonsense in Uzb.
A lot of it comes from INVESTMENT.(Russian, Chinese, American, etc.) - which is always welcome. A lot of Kz guys went to those imperialist & zionist countries in Europe & North America to get experience in economics, banking, technology, industrial fields..(no political schience students here, I guess:cool: ). Well, results are obvious..
Very simple indicator of economy - Real Estate. Do you know how much apartments in Almaty cost? $200.000 for 2-bedroom apt. is not the highest price and not in the best part of the city. I'm not talking about Astana, which is more expensive.
Their natural resources..does Uzb lack them? I wouldn't say so. The difference is about where does the money from these resources go - several families in Uzb, compared to a lot fairer contribution in Kz.
One more thing - Kz in general, and it's leader in particular - they have this wise ability to be in friends with everybody - Russia, USA, Europe, China - even Uzb (weather in IAK's house permitting) and benefit from everybody's alliance. To be frank - I envy Kz's having such a leader, who cares about its people and does positive politics in the long run.
And uzbek guys wouldn't be their "mardikorlar", as well as uzbek girls wouldn't serve their houses of shame if "in terms of prices and earnings in the country, they are not far up from us, living standards are almost same.", as you said.
It's a lot about leader - he is the captain.
Kz can be taken an example from, especially it's leader, despite Nazarbaev's having stolen a lot, and being one of the richest people on Earth (inofficially).
Uzb is at least 10 years behind Kz and these guys are not waiting till Uzb makes up.
Uzb government does act like a real prostitute (Mr. IAK particularly). No offence.

P.S. Lobar, I love your avatar

P.P.S. Mods, sorry if most of it was offtop

I guess if these data are right, then not Moscow but Almaty should be considered the most expencive city in the world. When you compare Kazakstan and Uzbekistan take into account population and territory, its natural resources which make a big share in its economic growth, political and geopolitical situation. In this case Kazakstan is lucky. And it is lucky not because Nazarbaev is smarter than IAK, but because of natural resources and being open to sell them to hungry Imperialists.

Geopolitical one was that next country that would become a target of pink revolutions was defenitely Uzbekistan, because of its strategic location and population. Kazakstan would not, because the West already had their friend (Nazarbaev but not the exception of becoming next) and Kazakstan's oil resources so far available to the western market is ok to the West. It is all about natural resources and oil being primary one, because oil is the driving force of all economies. Our goal is not to compare economies of 2 countries or how their presidents handle their jobs, but to see what is hidden behind all that democracy histeria.

I do acknowledge that much has to be done in terms of economic and social welfare, but politics is often intermingled with the issue of war for natural resources because of imminent end of oil, the end of which means the end of all modern civilization. So far according to reports only Central Asia (not Saudia Arabia) has huge unused gas and oil resources and it has become on the top of the agenda for most giant oil companies in the West. Who is the head of developed countries? - oilmen and bankers who stock on thier oil.

The hardships and social issues do not begin with Karimov and they do not end with him unfortunately. The geopolitical game for resources is a long planned agenda streching to decades. In this agenda Kazakstan and Turkmenistan are the main objectives, others including Uzbekistan Kyrgizstan, Tadjikistan are just strategically important regions en route to the destination.

Karimov in his turn can not play strategically alone, or he faces bad fiasco. He himself was assisted by Imperialists and was good with them just like Nazarbaev and uzbek currency was better than Kazakh one and so was economic situation. The worsening situation in Uzbekistan did not happen in one day, it happened slowly through certain economic diversions by Imperialists, for example through helping to establish a police state in Uzbekistan, through assisting IAK and turning a deaf ear by the west to tortures and killings, it was thanks to western help that he rose to the level of Uzbekbashi.

But what happened can not be returned, and IAK have learned that he made some terrible mistakes by going after imperialists, but he learned it too late. Now mistakes should not be repeated. IAK is cleaning his apparatus, and all those arrests are a sign to some changes in his course. There are two big interests meeting in Central Asia, Western and Russian, we should not allow those interests to clash in Central Asia, otherwise the end will be fatal for the region.

here's a nice article about our topic: http://777001.com/?q=node/138

Ulug'bek

07-24-2006, 02:23 AM

I guess if these data are right, then not Moscow but Almaty should be considered the most expencive city in the world. When you compare Kazakstan and Uzbekistan take into account population and territory, its natural resources which make a big share in its economic growth, political and geopolitical situation. In this case Kazakstan is lucky. And it is lucky not because Nazarbaev is smarter than IAK, but because of natural resources and being open to sell them to hungry Imperialists.

Geopolitical one was that next country that would become a target of pink revolutions was defenitely Uzbekistan, because of its strategic location and population. Kazakstan would not, because the West already had their friend (Nazarbaev but not the exception of becoming next) and Kazakstan's oil resources so far available to the western market is ok to the West. It is all about natural resources and oil being primary one, because oil is the driving force of all economies. Our goal is not to compare economies of 2 countries or how their presidents handle their jobs, but to see what is hidden behind all that democracy histeria.

I do acknowledge that much has to be done in terms of economic and social welfare, but politics is often intermingled with the issue of war for natural resources because of imminent end of oil, the end of which means the end of all modern civilization. So far according to reports only Central Asia (not Saudia Arabia) has huge unused gas and oil resources and it has become on the top of the agenda for most giant oil companies in the West. Who is the head of developed countries? - oilmen and bankers who stock on thier oil.

The hardships and social issues do not begin with Karimov and they do not end with him unfortunately. The geopolitical game for resources is a long planned agenda streching to decades. In this agenda Kazakstan and Turkmenistan are the main objectives, others including Uzbekistan Kyrgizstan, Tadjikistan are just strategically important regions en route to the destination.

Karimov in his turn can not play strategically alone, or he faces bad fiasco. He himself was assisted by Imperialists and was good with them just like Nazarbaev and uzbek currency was better than Kazakh one and so was economic situation. The worsening situation in Uzbekistan did not happen in one day, it happened slowly through certain economic diversions by Imperialists, for example through helping to establish a police state in Uzbekistan, through assisting IAK and turning a deaf ear by the west to tortures and killings, it was thanks to western help that he rose to the level of Uzbekbashi.

But what happened can not be returned, and IAK have learned that he made some terrible mistakes by going after imperialists, but he learned it too late. Now mistakes should not be repeated. IAK is cleaning his apparatus, and all those arrests are a sign to some changes in his course. There are two big interests meeting in Central Asia, Western and Russian, we should not allow those interests to clash in Central Asia, otherwise the end will be fatal for the region.

here's a nice article about our topic: http://777001.com/?q=node/138

IAK doesn't care about you or me my dear, only thing he cares about is his post, Uzbekistan as his property and uzbekistanis as his own slaves!

If you didn't realize this during his governance these long years, then wait till he passes ownership of Uzbekistanis to his daughter!

Only way for Uzbekistanis to get into right track is to demolish IAK's regime and have a humane governing system where they will be allowed to live, work, express their ideas freely and participate in political life as normal human beings.

So, Helsinki Commission Briefing on Uzbekistan and any other attempt to discuss what is happening in Uzb. is relevant and important.

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 03:03 AM

IAK doesn't care about you or me my dear, only thing he cares about is his post, Uzbekistan as his property and uzbekistanis as his own slaves!

If you didn't realize this during his governance these long years, then wait till he passes ownership of Uzbekistanis to his daughter!

Only way for Uzbekistanis to get into right track is to demolish IAK's regime and have a humane governing system where they will be allowed to live, work, express their ideas freely and participate in political life as normal human beings.

So, Helsinki Commission Briefing on Uzbekistan and any other attempt to discuss what is happening in Uzb. is relevant and important.

Demolishing will never happen, because ti entails bloodshed and people like me will stand for our country. Reality is this - the west will never get Uzbekistan, those people who join opposition- it's their choice, but Uzbekistan is strengthening ties with Russia and China, that will be a strong alliance against western occupation.

You talk about possession by Karimov and don't see how western democracy being corrupt, how elections being stolen, how presidents are not elected but appointed - we don't need that kind of pseudo democracy, it is all big lie! The uzbek oppositon better stay hell out of Uzbekistan if they deal with dirty western politicians and not mess with Uzbekistan.

kipchak

07-24-2006, 03:43 AM

My goodness Djigit, way to go!! I am in total solidarity with you now!

infolife

07-24-2006, 07:18 AM

Demolishing will never happen, because ti entails bloodshed and people like me will stand for our country. Reality is this - the west will never get Uzbekistan, those people who join opposition- it's their choice, but Uzbekistan is strengthening ties with Russia and China, that will be a strong alliance against western occupation.

You talk about possession by Karimov and don't see how western democracy being corrupt, how elections being stolen, how presidents are not elected but appointed - we don't need that kind of pseudo democracy, it is all big lie! The uzbek oppositon better stay hell out of Uzbekistan if they deal with dirty western politicians and not mess with Uzbekistan.

I cant believe u r saying such a thing.

You talk how your uzbek brothers and sisters being killed and support the cooperation with Russia and China who backp up Uzbekistan and IAK on doing this???:rolleyes:

You talk about deen of Allah swta and support the goverment who opresses and imprisons ppl for practising that deen?:rolleyes:

Where is your logic coming from???

s uzbek goverment clean? How could the goverment kill its own ppl and imprison 60.000 of its own citizens be called clean? In fact, there is nothing clean in uzb gove at the moment.

Those western goverment who gave shelter to uzbek refuugees are a lot better than uzbek goverment.

guest1234

07-24-2006, 07:42 AM

Dear Djigit,

At least you understood, that life in Kz is a lot better than in Uzb now, a lot more promising.

On the other hand, you sound just like a sovied propaganda machine, but in an uzbek manner.
Stop blaming imperialists, location & population, one's being lucky and other's being not - everything happens for reason & this reason is IAK & his family. IAK doesn't give a sh*t about his people and acts like a prostitute - turning his ass to USA & Europe first (calling russians as colonizators) and now to Russia & China (calling USA & Europe as imperialists).
As mentioned, Uzb's positions were better in 1991 - but IAK slowly took over in every aspects of life - religion, social, business, etc. Nothing can really be done in Uzb. if IAK doesn't have profit from it. Or his daughter.
With our population and hardworking people we could do a lot better than Kz, had there investments & job had been provided for them - where???
Our geopolitical location does allow to profit more than one of Kz, as many interests do intersect in Uzb. Just be friends with neighbours and don't let so-called imperialists (as well as Russia) too close. Exactly what Nazarbaev does.
And stop saying that Kz has natural resourses as reason for theing prosperity - Uzb has them as well - where are those milliards of dollars? IAK's pockets. As a result: Do Kazakh students gather cotton? No, they study in so-called imperialists countries & are eager to come back and develop Kz.
Nazarbaev is a lot smarter than IAK, at least in politics. People always look at their leader.
About Western interest in Kz oil..What are you supposed to do with this oil- keep it in your pockets? Of course, you sell it to those, paying highest price. And invest the money in your industry, economics, education. Not putting them in your pockets, like IAK does.
You'll see, after some time all these companies will be kicked out of Kz, or at least will become only minoritary decision makers, as all infrastracture will be finished and ready for Kazakhs oil companies themselves to take over. That's what I call smart politics:D .

Real Estate prices do not always reflect living cost, if you didn't know.
Nevertheless, life is expensive in Almaty and esp. in Astana.

The Reaper

07-24-2006, 09:04 AM

Thank god for Islam Karimov. He gave us the vision of "Buyuk Davlat," and we should be grateful, because only his genius would come up with this great endeavor!
All these people whining about starving people, child labor, political prisoners, economic collapse, widespread corruption, poor healthcare, high unemployment rate, etc. etc. don't know the realities of true "Uzbek Way."
It's all about family, where Islam Karimov is the father and we're all his children. He loves us, and every night before he goes to sleep, his eyes fill up with tears of happiness because Uzbekistan is rapidly developing, and the newspapers can't get enough of it. It's too much happiness even for President, that's why he asks newspapers to publish something sad every now and then! But guess what, journalists can't lie, because they can't make anything bad up when everything is so great!

These American imperialist pigs want to steal our babies, drink all our water, eat our bread, because they don't know the realities of Uzbekistan, and they don't care! Did I mention that they envy us? YES, those imperialists envy our progress and they want to make sure nobody challenges their economic and political might like Uzbekistan does! If it wasn't for those pigs, our national currency would be as hard as their filthy dollar!

Why are they shoving this "democracy" down our throat? Because they can't stand all this progress we've made! All those "human rights" organizations are funded by Zionist Hungarian Jews, because Jews, especially Hungarian Jews, hate us for our freedom!! That filthy Sanjar Umarov is a Jew-lover! Jew-lovers are worse than Jews! He's not being tortured in jail or denied his basic rights, he's probably hiding in a sinagogue somewhere in Budapest, celebrating Shabath, and making hateful remarks about Uzbekistan!
Those Congressmen, I hate them! They don't have anything on our members of Oliy Madjlis! It makes me happy everytime I see those MP's on our Nahor Oshs, with their pretty chubby stomachs and their minds completely busy with thinking about the well-being of our Great Nation. Nothing says "man of the people" than the good old "Nahor Osh".

As they say, "Och kornim, tinch qulog'im", so let's make it our motto and follow our Dear Leader towards the Golden Age of Uzbekistan!

TR

bacha

07-24-2006, 11:41 AM

Djigit's logic as I understood it:
Religion is good.
Uzbek government is bad.
US and the West are much worse.
Anything related to the West and US is worse than the Uzbek government, even if this government is repressive towards muslims.
The top of the mountain logic of his says that since NGO's are mainly western invention, and have goals similar to that of the western ones, they are bad as well.

Djigit, without civil society we will always have a government like the one we do now. The most important players in building a civil society are NGO's, domestic and international. Unless you want to live under an authoritarian, or even worse totalitarian regime.

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 01:48 PM

Again I repeat, It is not about Karimov being good and others bad. I don't say he is but he is keeping peace at least.

Reality is that opposition will never be able to get to Uzbekistan, it is evident and all that histeria about Karimov killing is nothing in comparison to what Bush, Blair and other pseudo democratic leaders are doing. You don't see what Western countries doing? You can only see that Karimov is killing or you just addicted to western media? Who is backing up Your opposition ? - Bush's administration- who is terrorist #1, under false pretexts they start wars, more than 300 thousand people already died all over the world you don't see that, how many more he wants to murder.

That is why all uzbek opposition is destined to be away from Uzbekistan being "vatangado". If you join you become same.

Someone talked about S. Umarov, well, do you know his history, do you know that brothers Umarovs were in oil business, they were literally robbing Uzbekistan oil money, see how many millions they have stolen, do you think they earned them in halal way? Government does have evidence against him that is why he got arrested. But it is not about him.
You better stick to your democracy, Uzbekistan will go its own way.

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 01:55 PM

I cant believe u r saying such a thing.

You talk how your uzbek brothers and sisters being killed and support the cooperation with Russia and China who backp up Uzbekistan and IAK on doing this???:rolleyes:

You talk about deen of Allah swta and support the goverment who opresses and imprisons ppl for practising that deen?:rolleyes:

Where is your logic coming from???

s uzbek goverment clean? How could the goverment kill its own ppl and imprison 60.000 of its own citizens be called clean? In fact, there is nothing clean in uzb gove at the moment.

Those western goverment who gave shelter to uzbek refuugees are a lot better than uzbek goverment.

Ah veriz mai logic? Logic is very simple: Those killings have been staged just like any revolt organized by CIA.

Sestryonka, da ya govoryu ob Allahe i podderjivayu uzbekskoe pravitel'stvo, no ya ne podderjivayu Busha i ego kampaniyu protiv musul'man vsego mira, protiv zavoevaniya prirodnih resursov drugih stran.

Ti verish zapadnoy presse, ya ne veryu. da v uzbekistane est' zaklychonnie v ty'rmah, a chto ih net v Amerike?

Da eta Amerika soderjit zaklyuchonnih so vsego mira bez suda bez sledstviya, sestryonka.

The western government gave shelter to them to use them as pr company against uzbek government. The western government's plan was to give them shelter because it was the west that carried out revolt. Or you think that unarmed people can siege armed jail?

XXL

07-24-2006, 02:19 PM

idti na povodu u shayki demokratov "po irakski":P

Sanjar umarov?!!, hehe, pravilno, everyeskiy chelovek, absolyutno soglasen.:P

hehe, da tut est Andijansi ili net, sidyat tut i rassujdayut o demokratii,

vi hot' videli , cho oni tam govorili, kto vistupal, kak eto bilo, .hehe

sidyut i rvut glotki, kak Zapad budet "pomogat'" nam:P

realniy gaplardan gapirlilar bollar, oborib opkelormasdan.

pooolniy rost zapadniy puliga organizatsiya bolgan ishlar shu anjanda
yaqinda bolgdan hodisalar, odamlarni begunoh o'lishiga ham shu

Zapad niy "litsemernniy " demokratiyasi aybdor..

hehe, yana kelishvolib, human rights, deb dod voy solishadi, ozlari

Irakda, Afgonistonda, Palestinada, Guantanamo larda qilyatgan

ishlariga spaaaaakoyno vse zakrivayut glaza..:P

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 02:32 PM

A Timeline of CIA Atrocities (http://777001.com/?q=node/138)

By Steve Kangas

The following timeline describes just a few of the hundreds of atrocities and crimes committed by the CIA. (1)

CIA operations follow the same recurring script. First, American business interests abroad are threatened by a popular or democratically elected leader. The people support their leader because he intends to conduct land reform, strengthen unions, redistribute wealth, nationalize foreign-owned industry, and regulate business to protect workers, consumers and the environment. So, on behalf of American business, and often with their help, the CIA mobilizes the opposition.

First it identifies right-wing groups within the country (usually the military), and offers them a deal: “We’ll put you in power if you maintain a favorable business climate for us.” The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book:

propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator’s security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder. The victims are said to be “communists,” but almost always they are just peasants, liberals, moderates, labor union leaders, political opponents and advocates of free speech and democracy. Widespread human rights abuses follow... A Timeline of CIA Atrocities (http://777001.com/?q=node/138)

bacha

07-24-2006, 02:50 PM

hehe, yana kelishvolib, human rights, deb dod voy solishadi, ozlari

Irakda, Afgonistonda, Palestinada, Guantanamo larda qilyatgan

ishlariga spaaaaakoyno vse zakrivayut glaza..:P

Human Rights Watchning Guantanamo, Iroq, Afg'oniston haqidagi rapportlarini bir uqib chiqsangiz, sizga zarar qilmasa kerak deb uylayman.

Misol uchun Guantanamo haqida: http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=usa_gitmo

Agar uqishga qiynalsangiz, shu linkdagi maqolalarning birida HRW Amerika hukumatiga "Guantanamoni hozirgina yopishingiz zarur!" degan joi bor.

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 02:57 PM

XXL

07-24-2006, 03:01 PM

Human Rights Watchning Guantanamo, Iroq, Afg'oniston haqidagi rapportlarini bir uqib chiqsangiz, sizga zarar qilmasa kerak deb uylayman.

Misol uchun Guantanamo haqida: http://www.hrw.org/doc/?t=usa_gitmo

Agar uqishga qiynalsangiz, shu linkdagi maqolalarning birida HRW Amerika hukumatiga "Guantanamoni hozirgina yopishingiz zarur!" degan joi bor. rahmat, oqimiman, baraholka baribir.

a nima shu guantanamo degi bolyatgan ishlar haikda har hil TV,

gazetlarda, shunka nasiliye bolyapti deganlaria rostanam hakikat

mikin yoki prosto u ham ohshatishmi.. kak bi voo mi protiv nasiliya v

nashey tyurme degande.?

ha shuuncha narsani bilishar ekan, shunde borib, yopish nah**, desa

bomedimi shu tyurmeni.. yoki nima duhi etmedimi unaka degani US

ga?

i voobshe , yopilar hozir guantanamo bossam, yopib qoyishami yoki

ozi yopadigan vaqti kep qogan bosa, 3-4 oydan keyin, shashlik ham

kuymasin siq ham kuymasin degande qilib, , due to your votes we

decided to close up deydimi:P

bacha

07-24-2006, 03:11 PM

Qururq gapladan nima foyda, yopish kere degani bilan kimdur yopdimi? HRW nima qildi shu borada quruq bayonot chiqarishi bilan tak dlya otmazki glaz.

Birinchidan, HRW shu masalani yuzaga chiqarganligini uzi foydali ish. Ikkinchidan, yopmagan bulsalar ham usha qamoqda bulgan insonlarning bir qanchasi ozod etildi, bu ham HRW va boshqa NGOlarning bosimi ostida.
Uzbekistonda oldin HRW qamoqlar haqida rapportlar yozib turar edi, hozir biron qarindoshingizni nohaq qamoqqa yopib tashasalar, bu voqea ruy berganligi haqida hatto malumot ham topish qiyin buladi, bosim chetta tursin.

bacha

07-24-2006, 03:14 PM

rahmat, oqimiman, baraholka baribir.

a nima shu guantanamo degi bolyatgan ishlar haikda har hil TV,

gazetlarda, shunka nasiliye bolyapti deganlaria rostanam hakikat

mikin yoki prosto u ham ohshatishmi.. kak bi voo mi protiv nasiliya v

nashey tyurme degande.?

ha shuuncha narsani bilishar ekan, shunde borib, yopish nah**, desa

bomedimi shu tyurmeni.. yoki nima duhi etmedimi unaka degani US

ga?

i voobshe , yopilar hozir guantanamo bossam, yopib qoyishami yoki

ozi yopadigan vaqti kep qogan bosa, 3-4 oydan keyin, shashlik ham

kuymasin siq ham kuymasin degande qilib, , due to your votes we

decided to close up deydimi:P

Sizga "civil society", "public pressure", "responsible government" kabi terminlarni ishlatib biron narsani tushuntirish, bir chuponga internetni qanday ishlatishni tushuntirish kabi. Chuponku bir kun mas bir kun tushunib olsa kerak, siz haqida bilmadim...

XXL

07-24-2006, 03:15 PM

Sizga "civil society", "public pressure", "responsible government" kabi terminlarni ishlatib biron narsani tushuntirish, bir chuponga internetni qanday ishlatishni tushunganligi kabi. Chuponku bir kun mas bir kun tushunib olsa kerak, siz haqida bilmadim...
u yogiga ham bilme qouyuring.. hopmi..:P

haligi..prinyat vaaaannu, vipit koooofe dan boptiyu:P

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 03:32 PM

Birinchidan, HRW shu masalani yuzaga chiqarganligini uzi foydali ish. Ikkinchidan, yopmagan bulsalar ham usha qamoqda bulgan insonlarning bir qanchasi ozod etildi, bu ham HRW va boshqa NGOlarning bosimi ostida.
Uzbekistonda oldin HRW qamoqlar haqida rapportlar yozib turar edi, hozir biron qarindoshingizni nohaq qamoqqa yopib tashasalar, bu voqea ruy berganligi haqida hatto malumot ham topish qiyin buladi, bosim chetta tursin.

bir qanchasi? qoganlarichi? Abu Ghreib da chi nimala bo'votti? Hali ham Hudo biladi qanchadan qancha secret prisonla bor, kimlar u erda yotganligidan odamla behabar. Yana gapizda double standardku, bacha.

bacha

07-24-2006, 03:32 PM

u yogiga ham bilme qouyuring.. hopmi..:P

haligi..prinyat vaaaannu, vipit koooofe dan boptiyu:P

Hop, hafa bumen, siz ham bir kun chunip olass.
Laptopda internetdagi guzal qizlani tomosha qila turib, qichu musiqa eshitib, yana quylarini bu tomondan boshqa tomonga haydashni unutmay yurgan chuponga uhshab qolas. Faqat, tuhtab turin, hoz usha chuponga internetti ishlatishi urgatvoman, tshunib osa sizga utamiz...

bacha

07-24-2006, 03:35 PM

bir qanchasi? qoganlarichi? Abu Ghreib da chi nimala bo'votti? Hali ham Hudo biladi qanchadan qancha secret prisonla bor, kimlar u erda yotganligidan odamla behabar. Yana gapizda double standardku, bacha. Djigit, hozirgacha gap Uzbekistondagi NGOlar haqida ketmoqda, Amerika yo sharq davlatlari haqida emas.

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 03:40 PM

Djigit, hozirgacha gap Uzbekistondagi NGOlar haqida ketmoqda, Amerika yo sharq davlatlari haqida emas.

Ieee, a biza shunchadan beri nima haqida gapirvommiz? Aynan Amerika o'zini psevdo demokratiyasi bilan butun dunyoda notinchlik qo'zg'idi, threadni yahshilab ko'zdan kechirib chiqing. siz boshqa thread bilan adashtirvossiz bacha, NGO lar haqida boshqa thread bor http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php?t=30232. Betta boshqa narsa haqida gap ketvotti.

XXL

07-24-2006, 03:43 PM

Hop, hafa bumen, siz ham bir kun chunip olass.
Laptopda internetdagi guzal qizlani tomosha qila turib, qichu musiqa eshitib, yana quylarini bu tomondan boshqa tomonga haydashni unutmay yurgan chuponga uhshab qolas. Faqat, tuhtab turin, hoz usha chuponga internetti ishlatishi urgatvoman, tshunib osa sizga utamiz...
hehe, umnike..

hooee, akasi, gap oynashme qoya qoyakoling, bor hali.

kim aytti sizga hapa bolyapti deb, biron bir joyda yoki yozdimmi?:P

chupon ham oziz, qoy ham oziz, gapiz bosa gaplashoramiz,
okkkkeymi?

off top qimasdan, chiroyli gaplashing, ozizga gap ortirvomasdan, hopmi akasi,

javob yozishiz shartmas, toshiz terilme qomasin..

UzLand

07-24-2006, 04:53 PM

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 05:29 PM

Узи оддий бир эълон сифатида езилган нарса эди-я!

Брифингнинг аник куни, вакти ва жойи аник булди.

Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS) and Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ), Chairman and Co-Chairman, respectively, of the U.S. Helsinki Commission, announced that the Commission will hold a briefing entitled, “Uzbekistan: Are There Prospects for Change?” on Tuesday, July 25, 2006, at 4:00 PM in room 226 of the Dirksen Senate Office Building (subject to change).

Gap e'londamasku, gap mazmunda, anjumanda. Hammasini boshida CIA turadi, suvni bulg'aydigani ham o'sha, sila bo'sa ula chape chalsa birgalashib chape chalib yuribsila. Hullas bittasi aniq - Amerika hukumatiga qo'shilganlaga O'zbekistonga yo'l yo'q. O'sha yahudiy senatorla bilan Amerikada qolib ketvurasila.

UzLand

07-24-2006, 06:35 PM

Gap e'londamasku, gap mazmunda, anjumanda. Hammasini boshida CIA turadi, suvni bulg'aydigani ham o'sha, sila bo'sa ula chape chalsa birgalashib chape chalib yuribsila. Hullas bittasi aniq - Amerika hukumatiga qo'shilganlaga O'zbekistonga yo'l yo'q. O'sha yahudiy senatorla bilan Amerikada qolib ketvurasila.

Сиз хам бир келиб кетмасангиз булмайди. Уша яхудий сенатор билан гаплашиб куярмидиз. Сал тушунтириб. Нега бу Узбекистон хукуматига каршисизлар, деб. Хаетимиз фаровон, арикларимиздан сут окади, уйимизда хамиша нон епиглик, кучада тиламчилар йук, мардикор деган нарсани эшитмаганмиз, милициямиз доим бизга кулиб жавоб беради, деб айтинг уларга. Бизга ишонишмаяпти, шекилли.

ДЖИГИТ

07-24-2006, 06:43 PM

Сиз хам бир келиб кетмасангиз булмайди. Уша яхудий сенатор билан гаплашиб куярмидиз. Сал тушунтириб. Нега бу Узбекистон хукуматига каршисизлар, деб. Хаетимиз фаровон, арикларимиздан сут окади, уйимизда хамиша нон епиглик, кучада тиламчилар йук, мардикор деган нарсани эшитмаганмиз, милициямиз доим бизга кулиб жавоб беради, деб айтинг уларга. Бизга ишонишмаяпти, шекилли.

Ishonishmidide, chunki Amerikani ariqlaridan sut oqmas ekan, bu erda uylarda non yopilmas ekan, ko'chada umuman tilamchilar yo'q ekan, o'g'irlik, odam o'girlashlar yo'q ekan, ishsizlar umuman yo'q ekan, Aby Ghreib, Guantanamo - Hollywooddagi kinolar ekan, Amerikaliklar Afg'onistonga, Iroqga, yaqinda Lebanon, Iran ga hujum qilishmagan va qilishmas ekan, begunoh odamlarni boshiga amerikani bombalari tushmagan ekan, yana ko'p narsalarni olsa, ishonmasekande manga.

XXL

07-25-2006, 01:33 AM

Bacha , uzr oshirib yubordim shekilli.

Bizdan o'tdi, konglizga omiss, ;)

on: da, eto konechno priyatno, chto vot senatori posidyat tam ,

poobsujdayut chto sdelat' s nashey stranoy:P.

no vryad li, mogut chto nibud sushestvennoye skazat, krome kak

povozmutittsa nineshnim, " nestabviln'nim" polojeniyem v etoy

strane.

Masanori

07-25-2006, 02:56 AM

uchrashuvda ishtirok etadiganlar orasida, faqat Dr. Martha Brill Olcott hurmatga sazovor, Markaziy osiyodagi asl vaziyat bilan yaqindan tanish, uz ilmiy ishlarida juda ajoyib analizni taqdim etadi. Markaziy Osiyoda siyosiy iqtisodiy islohotlar utkazish borasida eng optimal fikrlarni aynan shu insondan kutish mumkin.
Qolgan ishtirokchilar... nima derdi... a! LUTTIBOZLAR ;)

The Reaper

07-25-2006, 04:37 AM

Ti verish zapadnoy presse, ya ne veryu.

Надо же какой ты избирательный! :rolleyes:
Значит когда дело касается Абу-Граиб, Гуантанамо, и других случаев пыток, ты веришь им, а когда дело касается демократизации, то они наглые вруны?? Если помнишь, это были твои ненавистные Американские газеты, которые первыми опубликовали фото из Абу-Граиб, несмотря на сопротивление из Пентагона.

da v uzbekistane est' zaklychonnie v ty'rmah, a chto ih net v Amerike?

Да в Америке десятки тысяч политзаключенных, которые лишены элементарных прав. :rolleyes:

Da eta Amerika soderjit zaklyuchonnih so vsego mira bez suda bez sledstviya, sestryonka.

Согласен. Но во всяком случае, Буша критикуют за это и он вынужден с этим считаться. Его критикуют и демократы и пресса, и даже некоторые республиканцы. Именно под давлением внутри страны и за её пределами, они вынуждены были дать узникам Гуантанамо статус военнопленных.
Покажи-ка мне узбекскую газету или речь члена парламента, где Каримов критикуется вообще!

The western government gave shelter to them to use them as pr company against uzbek government. The western government's plan was to give them shelter because it was the west that carried out revolt. Or you think that unarmed people can siege armed jail?

Yes of course, it was all West. Soviet propaganda at it's finest. Are you gonna blame the West if you, for example, trip on a banana and fall. "Damn you West for these slippery CIA-bananas!!"

Let's say, for sake of argument that there indeed was some plot... Do you really think it would have succeeded if it wasn't for devastated economy, and hopeless desperation among population?
You know there has to be a certain base for these types of revolts, namely, poverty and political oppression.

TR

ДЖИГИТ

07-25-2006, 08:20 AM

The Reaper
Надо же какой ты избирательный! :rolleyes:
Значит когда дело касается Абу-Граиб, Гуантанамо, и других случаев пыток, ты веришь им, а когда дело касается демократизации, то они наглые вруны?? Если помнишь, это были твои ненавистные Американские газеты, которые первыми опубликовали фото из Абу-Граиб, несмотря на сопротивление из Пентагона.

chto v mire net drugih sredstv massovoy informatsii krome zapadnih, opoveshayushih o teh sobitiyah ? K tomu je, ne vse zapadnie istochniki ya schitayu nedostovernimi.

Да в Америке десятки тысяч политзаключенных, которые лишены элементарных прав. :rolleyes:

Ya ne stavlyu pod vopros otsutstvie politzaklyuchonnih v Amerike, vsyo delo v eksporte psevdo demokratii i navyazivanii eyo zapadnoy formi drugim stranam.

Согласен. Но во всяком случае, Буша критикуют за это и он вынужден с этим считаться. Его критикуют и демократы и пресса, и даже некоторые республиканцы. Именно под давлением внутри страны и за её пределами, они вынуждены были дать узникам Гуантанамо статус военнопленных.
Покажи-ка мне узбекскую газету или речь члена парламента, где Каримов критикуется вообще!

Kritika ne porog demokratii i krome kritiki mi ne vidim nikakogo progressa v etom dele, i kakaya tut raznitsa s Uzbekistanom - nikakoy, i tam i zdes' resul'tat odin, raznitsa : sobaki layut a karavan idyot. Drugoe delo Uzbekistan, srednevekoviy natsional'niy mentalitet s istoriey vo vsyu propitannoy rabolepstvom k hanam i padishaham.

Yes of course, it was all West. Soviet propaganda at it's finest. Are you gonna blame the West if you, for example, trip on a banana and fall. "Damn you West for these slippery CIA-bananas!!"

Let's say, for sake of argument that there indeed was some plot... Do you really think it would have succeeded if it wasn't for devastated economy, and hopeless desperation among population?
You know there has to be a certain base for these types of revolts, namely, poverty and political oppression.

Your example with banana is just ridiculous, while CIA indeed is engaged with overthrowing democratically elected governments and staging false attacks, your sarcasm is out of place.

You talk about devastated economy, poverty, political oppression while it was United States government that was backing IAK up in his atrocities, it was United States cooperating with his apparatus and looking through the fingers at all his opression and torture for 15 years. This practice of double standards has become so customised that it is no more secret for common sense. Even IAK's coming to power is connected to US since it was in US interests to back up junta during late 80s and early 90s and make Soviet collapse into several independent states.

The Reaper

07-25-2006, 08:55 AM

chto v mire net drugih sredstv massovoy informatsii krome zapadnih, opoveshayushih o teh sobitiyah ? K tomu je, ne vse zapadnie istochniki ya schitayu nedostovernimi.
Но всё-таки ПЕРВЫМИ были Американские газеты, которые опубликовали материал, а остальные пошли по их пути. Даже и сейчас New York Times, Washington Post, Newsweek и L.A. Times, стоят на передовой по количеству материалов разоблачающих Буша и его прихвостней! За это им надо отдать должное.

Ya ne stavlyu pod vopros otsutstvie politzaklyuchonnih v Amerike, vsyo delo v eksporte psevdo demokratii i navyazivanii eyo zapadnoy formi drugim stranam.
Я за экспорт демократии, но само собой не способом военной интервенции как в Ираке. Я за гуманитарный способ - обмен студентами, бесплатное повышение квалификации, финансирование программ образования и науки. Посмотри, сколько здесь ребят которые в свое время отучились по программе АКСЕЛС (я в том числе)! Они ведь многое повидали и многому научились! В итоге весь их опыт и мозги, рано или поздно придут обратно в Узбекистан! Куда им всем деваться, это же Родина!

Kritika ne porog demokratii i krome kritiki mi ne vidim nikakogo progressa v etom dele, i kakaya tut raznitsa s Uzbekistanom - nikakoy, i tam i zdes' resul'tat odin, raznitsa : sobaki layut a karavan idyot. Drugoe delo Uzbekistan, srednevekoviy natsional'niy mentalitet s istoriey vo vsyu propitannoy rabolepstvom k hanam i padishaham.
Критика власти подразумевает свободу слова, что подразумевает подотчетность избранных народом чиновников. Без критики власть имущих, государство опускается в пучину деспотии к в Узбекистане.
А фактор менталитета или неготовности народа - это туфта придуманная такими как Каримов, чтобы удержаться у власти. Кто он такой, чтобы судить о том готов-ли народ к демократии или нет!? Порой я хочу крикнуть ему в ухо, "Не надо за меня говорить!!"
Интересно получается, ты в первый раз пришел к власти демократическим путем голосования, а теперь извольте - демократия не для нас! :rolleyes: Он этим своим тезисом опускает народ до уровня безмозглого стада! Хотя должен был постыдиться это говорить, так как сам вроде вышел оттуда.

Your example with banana is just ridiculous, while CIA indeed is engaged with overthrowing democratically elected governments and staging false attacks, your sarcasm is out of place.
If you only knew some horrible things our government did in Afghanistan and Tadjikistan, I'm sure you'd look at this slightly differently.

You talk about devastated economy, poverty, political oppression while it was United States government that was backing IAK up in his atrocities, it was United States cooperating with his apparatus and looking through the fingers at all his opression and torture for 15 years. This practice of double standards has become so customised that it is no more secret for common sense. Even IAK's coming to power is connected to US since it was in US interests to back up junta during late 80s and early 90s and make Soviet collapse into several independent states.
Agree, double standard policy is how American politicians lost me. But hey, I guess that's how real-politik works and you can't do much about it.

TR

riy2006

07-25-2006, 01:47 PM

Господа ! А где можно будет прочитать о результатах "HELSINKI COMMISSION TO HOLD BRIEFING ON PROSPECTS FOR POLITICAL CHANGE IN UZBEKISTAN"?
Пл.дайте ссылку

UzLand

07-26-2006, 07:50 PM

Господа ! А где можно будет прочитать о результатах "HELSINKI COMMISSION TO HOLD BRIEFING ON PROSPECTS FOR POLITICAL CHANGE IN UZBEKISTAN"?
Пл.дайте ссылку

http://www.voanews.com/uzbek/2006-07-26-voa4.cfm

ДЖИГИТ

07-26-2006, 09:14 PM

provalilas' vasha konferentsiya, nikogda oppozitsiya ne mozhet uchatvstvovat' na viborah buduchi zarubejom v izgnanii. Da i net edinstva v ney, kajdiy tolkaet svoyo.

P.S. Mr. Ruzaliev, website yopilvottimi? Neujeli ne nashlis' sponsori v shtatah.

UzLand

07-27-2006, 08:07 AM

EURASIA INSIGHT
UZBEK OPPOSITION CALLS FOR US PRESSURE ON KARIMOV
Joshua Kucera 7/26/06

Uzbek opposition politicians charged at a July 25 meeting of the US Helsinki Commission in Washington, DC that the US government and other Western states are doing too little to put pressure on the government of Uzbekistan’s President Islam Karimov.

"We Uzbek democrats need the support of the US and the West, but there’s no interest from the US and the West in our problems," Abdurahim Polat, chairman of the opposition Birlik Party, told the Commission, an independent government agency that monitors compliance with acts adopted by members of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

Polat was joined by Erk Party Chairman Muhammad Salih, and Gulam Umarov, son of Sanjar Umarov, head of the Sunshine Coalition, a loose grouping of human rights activists and members of the Ozod Dekhkonlar Party. Sanjar Umarov was arrested in Tashkent in October 2005.

The politicians argued that Western governments’ failure to impose harsh sanctions on Uzbekistan after the May 2005 crackdown on demonstrators in the Uzbek town of Andijan has been interpreted by President Karimov as a laissez-faire for his domestic policies.

"For three months after the shooting of the peaceful demonstrators, Karimov was in shock from his own crime and awaited the coming punishment … this fear, as it turned out, was unjustified," commented Muhammed Salih.

Western governments’ lenience eventually emboldened Karimov to crack down on opposition groups, Salih continued. "Three months of fear passed and the season of revenge commenced. Large-scale repressions began against survivors of the Andijan massacre, against journalists who reported the massacre, against the political opposition, and against other dissenting voices," he said.

Two bills designed to respond to the events in Andijan are scheduled to come before the US Congress this year. One, sponsored by Helsinki Commission Co-Chairman Representative Christopher Smith, a New Jersey Republican, would freeze financial assets owned by members of the Karimov government, impose a ban on US visas for Uzbek government officials and set up an arms embargo. The bill is designed to improve human rights conditions throughout Central Asia. The second, proposed by Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona, would impose similar sanctions, but focuses exclusively on Uzbekistan. Both bills remain under committee review, but Rep. Smith stated that he hoped to see his bill put before Congress before it adjourns "in a few months."

Salih placed blame for the failure of earlier attempts to get tough with the Uzbek government on US companies interested in investing in Uzbekistan, the US military, which had sought Tashkent’s cooperation in the "war on terror," and "some professors from prestigious US universities."

"If the same sanctions that are in place against the Lukashenko regime [Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko] were enacted against the Karimov regime, then the situation in Uzbekistan would be entirely different," he said. Salih claimed that members of the government, fearing that their economic holdings and European bank accounts were in jeopardy, would be willing to foment a "palace coup."

But one Central Asia expert disagreed. Sanctions may not have the effect on the Karimov regime that the opposition hopes, commented Martha Brill Olcott of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, who also testified at the Helsinki Commission briefing. "Karimov has found ways to minimize the damage to him personally, to his family, and to his regime that resulted from US and European attempts at isolation," in particular finding new backers in Russia and China, she said.

Divisions among the opposition, however, were clear. Polat devoted a significant portion of his testimony at the briefing to criticizing the Erk Party and Salih, its chairman, going so far as to compare Salih with Osama bin Laden for pro-Islam statements the party leader had made, and charging that Erk has no more than 50 members in Uzbekistan.

Salih and Polat both said that the US is overreacting to the threat of Islamism in Uzbekistan and falsely believe that if Karimov is ousted, a Taliban-like government will take over. "This is a myth invented by Karimov himself … if there were elections, [Islamists] would receive less than one percent of the vote. Uzbeks, like all Central Asian Turkic people, are not radicals," Salih said.

Olcott, however, said there is potential for Islamism to grow in Uzbekistan. "It is important to note that there is more dynamism in Uzbekistan’s religious establishment than in their secular political and educational establishment," she said.

Editor’s Note: Joshua Kucera is a Washington, DC,-based freelance writer who specializes in security issues in Central Asia, the Caucasus and the Middle East.

melo

07-27-2006, 10:05 AM

EURASIA INSIGHT
UZBEK OPPOSITION CALLS FOR US PRESSURE ON KARIMOV
Joshua Kucera 7/26/06

I agree with the tough economic sanctions. I think they should treat Uzbekistan like Belarus. The Uzbek government only cares about money and power. I do not beleive they are capable of making money on their own so they would start conceding. I also agree the US overhyped the threat of radical Islam in Uzbekistan to justify their working with the Uzbek government. Lately I have been concerned about the US's involvement in other countries and would prefer them to have no relations with countries like Uzbekistan. I do not even see a purpose to having an embassy there. If the government is going to keep preaching about freedom and democracy (or whatver crap they make up next) they should just not deal with the middle East, Israel, or countries like Uzbekistan. I have become a beleiver in not dealing with countries like this in a negative or positive way. Not the US's problem (although some problems have already been started that must be fixed now). The US has done nothing in Uzbekistan and should just leave entirely now.

ДЖИГИТ

08-13-2006, 06:16 AM

Раскол в оппозиционном движении Узбекистана (http://afreeuzb.com/index.php/2006/07/29/raskol-v-oppozicionnom-dvizhenii-uzbekistana.html)

http://www.voanews.com/russian/images/voa_russiantv_helsinki_commission_uzbekistan_heari ngs_150.jpg

Слушания в Хельсинкской комиссии СШАНа этой неделе состоялись слушания в Хельсинской комиссии США на тему «Узбекистан: возможны ли изменения?». В них приняли участие лидер демократической партии «Эрк» Мухаммад Салих, председатель оппозиционной партии Узбекистана «Бирлик» Абдурахим Пулат, а также Гулям Умаров – сын осужденного узбекского бизнесмена, лидера «Солнечной коалиции» С. Умарова.

Возможны ли изменения в Узбекистан? Сможет ли сегодняшняя демократическая оппозиция Узбекистана объединиться и выставить реального кандидата на президентских выборах в 2007 году? Таковы были ключевые вопросы слушания.

С самого начала слушаний стало ясно, что узбекская оппозиция не только расходится во мнении по оценке ситуации в Узбекистане, но также пребывает в состоянии глубокого раскола.

http://www.voanews.com/russian/images/voa_russiantv_uzbekistan_abdurahim_pulat_150.jpg

Абдурахим ПулатВыступление председателя оппозиционной партии «Бирлик» Абдурахима Пулата было направлено против партии «Эрк» и ее лидера Мухаммада Салиха. Обращение Пулата содержало резкие обвинения в его адрес. «Узбекская оппозиция должна выдвинуть на выборы единого кандидата, – заявил г-н Пулат, – поскольку разобщенность будет смертельна для демократического движения Узбекистана».

Выступая от имени всего демократического движения Узбекистана, Абдурахим Пулат отметил, что единственная партия, которая не сотрудничает с ним, – это «Эрк». Более того, по его словам, «Эрк» неправильно ведет себя, давая негативную оценку положения дел в Узбекистане.

http://www.voanews.com/russian/images/promo_uzbekistan_muhammad_salih_150.jpg

Мухаммад СалихВ своем выступлении Мухаммад Салих остановился на проблемах во внутренней и внешней политике Узбекистана, отметив, что, несмотря на все старания, Запад не смог изменить курс внутренней политики президента Каримова, не останавливающегося перед репрессиями и нарушениями прав человека. Усилия Запада были сдерживающими, но не достаточными, сказал г-н Салих.

В заключении он отметил, что в Узбекистане «Запад потерял время, которое ушло на понимание среднеазиатской диктатуры. На понимание того, что никогда не следует полагаться на режим, который держится на насилии и государственном терроре».

http://www.voanews.com/russian/images/voa_russiantv_carnegie_end_martha_olcott_150.jpg

Марта ОлкоттСпециалист Фонда Карнеги за международный мир Марта Олкотт в своем выступлении подчеркнула: «Когда-нибудь Каримов уйдет с поста президента, даже если он будет баллотироваться в 2007 году. Его сломят старость и болезни. Но до этого времени, как и сейчас, существует реальная ситуация, которая может стать базой для большей открытости в политике, чего нельзя гарантировать, если Каримов передаст президентство специально подобранному кандидату; до этого времени Соединенным Штатам предстоит трудное время в Узбекистане».

Вопрос участников слушаний о том, как лидеры партий «Берлик» и «Эрк» поддерживают связь со своими членами внутри Узбекистана, оказался кульминационным. Абдурахим Пулат сказал: «Наша партия – единственная партия в Узбекистане, которая на сама деле работает. Конечно, я не скажу, что мы готовы взять власть силой, но мы работаем. Ситуация в Узбекистане, несомненно, хуже, чем была, но мы должны видеть реальность. У некоторых представителей оппозиционного движения, находящихся здесь, нет никакого контакта со своими членами в Узбекистане, и здесь они говорят только о плохом. Если мы будем говорить, что все в Узбекистане плохо и только плохо, что Каримов убивает народ, тогда кто придет к нам в оппозицию?»

Это заявление вызвало негодование представителей партии «Эрк». Генеральный секретарь партии «Эрк» Отаназар Орипов сказал: «Я давно уже понял, что Абдурахим Пулат критикует власть правильно, но критикует ее с позиции самой же власти. То есть они стоят на позиции правящих групп».

После этого Абдурахим Пулат покинул зал заседаний.

luchshe esli oppozitsiya ostanetsya takoy kakoy est' - raskolyonnoy. Uzbekistan dolzhen sumet' sohranit' mir i stabil'nost' v pervuyu ochered'. Nikakoy sanktsii ne nujno, posle sanktsiy mi znaem chto prosihodit, destabilizatsiya ili bombardirovka.