Mythology

[Desperado]

how do u do guys

i am searching for ancient myths, (unpopular and interesting, if possible with philosophical meaning) is there anybody who recommend something? if you know such websites would be even better. myths may belong to any nation, there is no restriction.

[Asadbek]

how do u do guys

i am searching for ancient myths, (unpopular and interesting, if possible with philosophical meaning) is there anybody who recommend something? if you know such websites would be even better. myths may belong to any nation, there is no restriction.
Bormisiz Mavlono?

Nemislarning "Nibelunglar qo'shig'i" degan afsonasini haqida eshitgandirsiz...
Qarab ko'ring: http://omacl.org/Nibelungenlied/


Shu adresda ko'p narsa borga o'xshaydi: http://omacl.org/genre.html

:)

[Desperado]

Bormisiz Mavlono?

Nemislarning "Nibelunglar qo'shig'i" degan afsonasini haqida eshitgandirsiz... Qarab ko'ring: http://omacl.org/Nibelungenlied/


har doimgiay tez va hojatbarorsiz :)

rahmat!

[StU]

Samie luchie mifi, kotorie ya v svoei jizni chitala eto:
"Legendi i Mifi Drevney Greciyi" = Must have read book! :cool:

[Iqbol]

how do u do guys

i am searching for ancient myths, (unpopular and interesting, if possible with philosophical meaning) is there anybody who recommend something? if you know such websites would be even better. myths may belong to any nation, there is no restriction.
If you are searching for mythes for their philosophical value, you can read works of some specialists in this field. Apart from many so called esoterists of today, there are some worldly respected authorities who spent decades on mythes and their meanings, their influence on our understanding of the world.
One of them is Mircea Eliade. He was one of the most respected authorities in this field.
Of living writers, you can consult works of French author working in US, René Girard. He worked on the meaning of "Holy" and also on hidden things since the beginning of the world, the tile of a book of him.
Of course, if you want to further your reading not only on mythes, but also on esoterism, or hidden teachings in general, you can get a great benefit from René Guenon, the great master of traditional teaching in the modern world.
There are many other authors. But, these three, especially the first and the third have such an authority that they didn't need to cite references in their works. Especially, René Guenon experienced personally different teachings of very different traditions from his young age.

[Iqbol]

Some titles:
by Mircea Eliade:
The Sacred and the Profane: The Nature of Religion, translated from French: W.R. Trask, Harvest/HBJ Publishers, 1957 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957) ISBN 0-15-679201-X (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=015679201X). Building on Rudolf Otto's 1917 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917) work, The Idea of the Holy, and his own previous work, Eliade shows how religion emerges from the experience of the sacred, and myths of time and nature.
Myths, Dreams and Mysteries: the Encounter between Contemporary Faiths and Archaic Realities, translated: P. Mairet, London: Harvill Press, 1959 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959).
Images and Symbols: Studies in Religious Symbolism, translated: P. Mairet, London: Harvill Press, 1961 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961).
Myth and Reality, translated: W. Trask, New York: Harper and Row, 1963 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963).
Symbolism, the Sacred, and the Arts, edited by Diane Apostolos-Cappadona, The Crossroad Publishing Company, N.Y., 1986 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986). ISBN 0-8245-0723-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=0824507231)


by René Girard:
1978. Des choses cachées depuis la fondation du monde. Paris: Grasset. (Trans. Things Hidden since the Foundation of the World: Research undertaken in collaboration with J.-M. Oughourlian and G. Lefort. Stanford: Stanford University Press, 1987)
2004. Les origines de la culture. Entretiens avec Pierpaolo Antonello et João Cezar de Castro Rocha. Paris: Desclée de Brouwer.
2004. Oedipus Unbound: Selected Writings on Rivalry and Desire. Ed. by Mark R. Anspach. Stanford: Stanford University Press


by René Guenon:

Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines (Introduction générale à l'étude des doctrines hindoues, 1921 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921))
Theosophy: History of a Pseudo-Religion (Le Théosophisme - Histoire d'une pseudo-religion, 1921 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921))
The Spiritist Fallacy (L'erreur spirite, 1923 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1923))
East and West (Orient et Occident, 1924 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924))
Man and His Becoming according to the Vedânta (L'homme et son devenir selon le Vêdânta, 1925 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925))
The Esoterism of Dante (L'ésotérisme de Dante, 1925 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925))
The King of the World (Le Roi du Monde, 1927 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1927))
The Crisis of the Modern World (La crise du monde moderne, 1927 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1927))
Spiritual Authority and Temporal Power (Autorité Spirituelle et Pouvoir Temporel, 1929 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929))
St. Bernard (Saint-Bernard, 1929 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929))
Symbolism of the Cross (Le symbolisme de la croix, 1931 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931))
The Multiple States of the Being (Les états multiples de l'Être, 1932 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1932))
Oriental Metaphysics (La metaphysique orientale, 1939 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1939))
The Reign of Quantity & the Signs of the Times (Le règne de la quantité et les signes des temps, 1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945))
Perspectives on Initiation (Aperçus sur l'initiation, 1946 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946))
The Metaphysical Principles of the Infinitesimal Calculus (Les principes du calcul infinitésimal, 1946 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946))
The Great Triad (La Grande Triade, 1946 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946))Posthumous collections

Initiation and Spiritual Realization (Initiation et réalisation spirituelle, 1952 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1952))
Insights into Christian Esoterism (Aperçus sur l'ésotérisme chrétien, 1954 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954))
Symbols of Sacred Science (Symboles de la Science Sacrée, 1962 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962))
Studies in Freemasonry and Compagnonnage (Études sur la Franc-Maçonnerie et le Compagnonnage, 1964 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964))
Studies in Hinduism (Études sur l'Hindouisme, 1966 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966))
Traditional Forms & Cosmic Cycles (Formes traditionelles et cycles cosmiques, 1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970))
Insights into Islamic Esoterism & Taoism (Aperçus sur l'ésotérisme islamique et le Taoïsme, 1973 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973))
As you can see, almost all of the works of Guénon were devoted to traditional teachings, among which mythes also have their important part.

[Desperado]

thanks for your the reply. i was not familiar with these writers. i will order their some books. René Guenon`s work on symbolism is yet another book i needed.

btw. are there any online versions of any of those books?

[Iqbol]

Do you read French?

[Iqbol]

http://jm.saliege.com/

ON THE MYTH OF KING OF THE WORLD/
http://jm.saliege.com/roidumonde.htm
This website is dedicated to the masters of traditional teaching and have some interesting articleson different mythes which are object of different interpretations by symbologists, esoterists, traditionalists.
You can also find interesting artiles on authors who worked on mythes, traditional doctrines;
only, the website is in french.
You can also read a book of Umberto Eco where he used all his skill of semiotics : "Le Pendule de Foucault". But, you must be patient to get through the first 250 pages of this novel. because it is so boring, especially its characters. But, this appreciation concerns its litterary aspect. You can find lots of differents teachings, historical personalities, mythes in this book.

[Iqbol]

http://www.mythology.org/
Foundation for Myhtologicla Studies

http://www.pantheon.org/
Encyclopedia Mythica

http://www.mythologyweb.com/
Mythology Web

[StU]

Samie luchie mifi, kotorie ya v svoei jizni chitala eto:
"Legendi i Mifi Drevney Greciyi" = Must have read book! :cool:

here you go!

Николай Кун. Легенды и мифы Древней Греции (http://www.lib.ru/MIFS/greece.txt)

[Desperado]

Nostalgique, thanks a lot for the links provided!
btw, unfortunately i dont read french.


Studentin, i got the book from libriary, its really a good read, cheers.

[StU]

Studentin, i got the book from libriary, its really a good read, cheers.

This is my favourite book, like it even more than any other tales.

P.S. eti grecheskie mifi lejat v osnove ochen mnogih trudov i nauchnih terminov daje - naprimer Arahnofobiya.

[Desperado]

This is my favourite book, like it even more than any other tales.

P.S. eti grecheskie mifi lejat v osnove ochen mnogih trudov i nauchnih terminov daje - naprimer Arahnofobiya.

thats quite right. thats why i felt the necessity of learning these things more seriously.
egiptian mythology has contributed greatly to greek and roman mythologies. i found this out by doing a little research on secret societies especially masonry. there is something great that connects all these things.

[StU]

thats quite right. thats why i felt the necessity of learning these things more seriously.
egiptian mythology has contributed greatly to greek and roman mythologies. i found this out by doing a little research on secret societies especially masonry. there is something great that connects all these things.

I would recommend you to read the Ancient Roman Mythology, but only after you've read the Greek. ;)

[Iqbol]

Hey, Desperado.
I have discovered this site today.
"Project René Guénon" is a website dedicated to René Guénon in particular, and to traditionalims in general.
You can find resumees of many of his books and many articles on him in english.
Maybe you won't find articles on mythology, but I think reading on Guénon can help you to clarify some of your ideas concerning not only mythes but the historical and transcendental outlook on the world and humanity.
http://elkorg-projects.blogspot.com/
For example this post summarizes a book dedicated to mythology (alas in french, but you can pick proper names which can be useful for your further bibliographi research):
http://elkorg-projects.blogspot.com/2005/06/gilbert-durand-introduction-la.html

==========================
Another site

http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm

where you can find for example this book:
The Sacred Theory of the Earth

by Thomas Burnet

[1691]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/ste/index.htm


or a whole section on legends of the world
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/index.htm


=================================
http://www.regnabit.com/
Your inquiry mind will like this one I think. Good interactive remarks on symbols

[Desperado]

brilliant sources, long live PERPLEX!

[Iqbol]

Short article on Symbols and interpretation of symbols taken from rengabit.com

[Desperado]

пдф ни очолмайман, уордда кўйишнинг иложи борми?

[lost]

пдф ни очолмайман, уордда кўйишнинг иложи борми?
convert qildim, marhamat.



Replex, mualliflik huquqini talab qilmasayiz kerak : )

[Iqbol]

convert qildim, marhamat.



Replex, mualliflik huquqini talab qilmasayiz kerak : )

Mengayam o'rgating pdf'dan word'ga convert qilishni...

[lost]

Mengayam o'rgating pdf'dan word'ga convert qilishni...
Nostaljik aka, acrobatni yangi versiyalarini hammasida bor convertqilish. "Save as" degan joyida .doc qilsangiz bo'ldi...

Mana bu erda (http://www.warex.ru/filex/Adobe%20Acrobat%20Professional%207.0.8%20Corporate .txt) Adobe Acrobat Professional 7.0.8 Corporate bor ekan, tekshirganim yo'q o'zim, lekin siz harakat qilib ko'ring...


oftob uchun uzrrr :D

[Iqbol]

Desperado, I am putting some articles from Rengabit in text format.

Rene Guenon on Islamic Esoterism; and, on Tawhid

[Iqbol]

Review of Da Vinci Code movie from Rengabit review.

[Iqbol]

Any exclusively «bookish» learning has nothing to do with the initiatory instruction, even if considered in its theoretical stage. […] What is exclusively a bookish study belongs to the most outside education; and if we insist, that is because there are confusions when the study refers to books with an initiatory content. The one who read such books like a “cultivated” person, or the one who studies them in an erudite manner and using profane methods, will not be closer to the genuine knowledge, since he brings the dispositions that don’t allow him to penetrate its real sense, nor to assimilate it at some degree. […] Completely different is the case of those who, considering these books as «supports» for their inner effort (these type of books having precisely this function), are able to see beyond the printed words and find in them corroboration and an occasion for developing their own possibilities; and here we allude to the symbolic characteristic of the language.

*************************************************


Toute connaissance exclusivement « livresque » n’a rien de commun avec la connaissance initiatique, même envisagée à son stade simplement théorique. Cela peut même paraître évident après ce que nous venons de dire, car tout ce qui n’est qu’étude livresque fait incontestablement partie de l’éducation la plus extérieure; si nous y insistons, c’est qu’on pourrait se méprendre dans le cas où cette étude porte sur des livres dont le contenu est d’ordre initiatique. Celui qui lit de tels livres à la façon des gens « cultivés », ou même celui qui les étudie à la façon des « érudits » et selon les méthodes profanes, n’en sera pas pour cela plus rapproché de la véritable connaissance, parce qu’il y apporte des dispositions qui ne lui permettent pas d’en pénétrer le sens réel ni de se l’assimiler à un degré quelconque. […] Tout autre est le cas de celui qui, prenant ces mêmes livres comme « supports » de son travail intérieur, ce qui est le rôle auquel ils sont essentiellement destinés, sait voir au delà des mots et trouve dans ceux-ci une occasion et un point d’appui pour le développement de ses propres possibilités; ici, on en revient en somme à l’usage proprement symbolique dont le langage est susceptible.
(René Guénon, Aperçus sur l’Initiation, Éd. Traditionnelles, 1992, pp. 218-9)

[Iqbol]

Myth of a Serpent

[Iqbol]

Ressources on Guenon in russian:
http://arctogaia.com/public/guenon/
You can consult for other personnalities the main page of arctogaia.com

[Iqbol]

Mythologies by Roland Barthes (http://orac.sund.ac.uk/~os0tmc/myth.htm)
Interrogating the Obvious

... ce qui m'a toujours prйoccupй [...] c'est le problиme de la signification des objets culturels. (Barthes: 1981 p.64)
Dans la vie quotidienne, j'йprouve pour tout ce que je vois et entends une sorte de curiositй, presque d'affectivitй intellectuelle qui est de l'ordre du romanesque. (Barthes: 1981 p.192)

Barthes often claimed to be fascinated by the meanings of the things that surround us in our everyday lives. If there is a certain amount of thematic continuity between the two `parts' of Mythologies then it is here, in their shared interrogation of the meanings of the cultural artefacts and practices that surround us. Barthes often claimed that he wanted to challenge the `innocence' and `naturalness' of cultural texts and practices which were capable of producing all sorts of supplementary meanings, or connotations to use Barthes's preferred term. Although objects, gestures and practices have a certain utilitarian function, they are not resistant to the imposition of meaning. There is no such thing, to take but one example, as a car which is a purely functional object devoid of connotations and resistant to the imposition of meaning. A BMW and a Citroлn 2CV share the same functional utility, they do essentially the same job but connote different things about their owners: thrusting, upwardly-mobile executive versus ecologically sound, right-on trendy. We can speak of cars then, as signs expressive of a number of connotations. It is these sorts of secondary meanings or connotations that Barthes is interested in uncovering in Mythologies. Barthes wants to stop taking things for granted, wants to bracket or suspend consideration of their function, and concentrate rather on what they mean and how they function as signs. In many respects what Barthes is doing is interrogating the obvious, taking a closer look at that which gets taken for granted, making explicit what remains implicit.
A simple example of Barthes getting under the surface of things is the essay `Iconographie de l'abbй Pierre' (Barthes: 1970 pp.54-6). The abbй Pierre was a Catholic priest who achieved a certain amount of media attention in the 1950s (and in the 1980s and 1990s too) for his work with the homeless in Paris. What interests Barthes is, perversely, the abbй Pierre's clothes and, in particular, his haircut. We would expect such a man to be indifferent to fashion and to consider a certain neutrality or `йtat zйro' (Barthes: 1970 p.54) to be desirable. However, far from being neutral or innocent, the abbй Pierre's clothes and hairstyle send out all sorts of messages. The abbй Pierre's simple working-class `canadienne' and austere hairstyle all connote the qualities of simplicity, religious devotion and self-sacrifice. His clothes and hairstyle make a fashion statement of sorts - as much, if not more, than a Lacoste polo shirt or an Armani suit - and are rich in connotations:

... la neutralitй finit par fonctionner comme signe de la neutralitй, ... La coupe zйro, elle affiche tout simplement le franciscanisme; conзue d'abord nйgativement pour ne pas contrairier l'apparence de la saintetй, bien vite elle passe а un mode superlatif de signification, elle dйguise l'abbй en saint Franзois. (Barthes: 1970 p.54)
Barthes is not claiming that the abbй Pierre cynically manipulated his public image, but is making the point, rather, that nothing can be exempted from meaning (see Barthes: 1975 p.90). Every single object or gesture is susceptible to the imposition of meaning, nothing is resistant to this process. This is especially the case when, like the abbй Pierre, one is subjected to the attention of the media. Barthes takes his argument one step further however. The media's stress on the abbй Pierre's devotion and good works - symbolized by his haircut! - diverts attention from any form of investigation of the causes of homelessness and poverty. Media representations of the abbй Pierre, claims Barthes, sanctify charity and mask out all references to the socio-economic causes of homelessless and urban poverty. What emerges in `Iconographie de l'abbй Pierre' is a strategy that is repeated throughout Mythologies: Barthes begins by making explicit the meanings of apparently neutral objects and then moves on to consider the social and historical conditions they obscure.

[Iqbol]

--Roland Barthes, "The World of Wrestling"

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[This is the initial essay in Barthes' Mythologies, originally published in 1957. The book is a series of small structural investigations of (mass) cultural phenomena; as Barthes explains in his preface to the 1970 French second edition, "This book has a double theoretical framework: on the one hand, an ideological critique bearing on the language of so-called mass-culture; on the other, a first attempt to analyze semiologically the mechanics of this language. I had just read Saussure and as a result acquired the conviction that by treating 'collective representations' as sign-systems, one might hope to go further than the pious show of unmasking them and account in detail for the mystification which transforms petit-bourgeois culture into a universal nature."

You might think about why the analysis of wrestling would lead off such a project. Also, keep in mind that professional wrestling (in Europe called 'amateur wrestling') in the 1950s had not reached the pinnacle of promotional and popular success that it has today (for one thing, TV was in its infancy); it was more of an 'outlaw' sport lacking the legitimization of gigantic revenues and spectatorships - not to mention wrestlers-turned-Governors. Does Barthes' semiology of wrestling applies to the current version of the sport/entertainment? By the way, I've numbered the paragraphs for ease of in-class reference; cuts in the text are indicated in square brackets.]


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The grandiloquent truth of gestures on life's great occasions.

--Baudelaire

The virtue of all-in wrestling is that it is the spectacle of excess. Here we find a grandiloquence which must have been that of ancient theatres. And in fact wrestling is an open-air spectacle, for what makes the circus or the arena what they are is not the sky (a romantic value suited rather to fashionable occasions), it is the drenching and vertical quality of the flood of light. Even hidden in the most squalid Parisian halls, wrestling partakes of the nature of the great solar spectacles, Greek drama and bullfights: in both, a light without shadow generates an emotion without reserve.

There are people who think that wrestling is an ignoble sport. Wrestling is not a sport, it is a spectacle, and it is no more ignoble to attend a wrestled performance of Suffering than a performance of the sorrows of Arnolphe or Andromaque [Barthes here refers to characters in neo-classic French plays by Moliиre and Racine]. Of course, there exists a false wrestling, in which the participants unnecessarily go to great lengths to make a show of a fair fight; this is of no interest. True wrestling, wrong called amateur wrestling, is performed in second-rate halls, where the public spontaneously attunes itself to the spectacular nature of the contest, like the audience at a suburban cinema. Then these same people wax indignant because wrestling is a stage-managed sport (which ought, by the way, to mitigate its ignominy). The public is completely uninterested in knowing whether the contest is rigged or not, and rightly so; it abandons itself to the primary virtue of the spectacle, which is to abolish all motives and all consequences: what matters is not what it thinks but what it sees.

This public knows very well the distinction between wrestling and boxing; it knows that boxing is a Jansenist sport, based on a demonstration of excellence. One can bet on the outcome of a boxing-match: with wrestling, it wold make no sense. A boxing-match is a story which is constructed before the eyes of the spectator; in wrestling, on the contrary, it is each moment which is intelligible, not the passage of time. The spectator is not interested in the rise and fall of fortunes; he expects the transient image of certain passions. Wrestling therefore demands an immediate reading of the juxtaposed meanings, so that there is no need to connect them. The logical conclusion of the contest does not interest the wrestling-fan, while on the contrary a boxing-match always implies a science of the future. In other words, wrestling is a sum of spectacles, of which no single one is a function: each moment imposes the total knowledge of a passion which rises erect and alone, without ever extending to the crowning moment of a result.

Thus the function of the wrestler is not to win: it is to go exactly through the motions which are expected of him. It is said that judo contains a hidden symbolic aspect; even in the midst of efficiency, its gestures are measured, precise but restricted, drawn accurately but by a stroke without volume. Wrestling, on the contrary, offers excessive gestures, exploited to the limit of their meaning. In judo, a man who is down is hardly down at all, he rolls over, he draws back, he eludes defeat, or, if the latter is obvious, he immediately disappears; in wrestling, a man who is down is exaggeratedly so, and completely fills the eyes of the spectators with the intolerable spectacle of his powerlessness.

This function of grandiloquence is indeed the same as that of the ancient theatre, whose principle, language and props (masks and buskins) concurred in the exaggeratedly visible explanation of a Necessity. The gesture of the vanquished wrestler signifying to the world a defeat which, far from disgusting, he emphasizes and holds like a pause in music, corresponds to the mask of antiquity meant to signify the tragic mode of the spectacle. In wrestling, as on the stage in antiquity, one is not ashamed of one's suffering, one knows how to cry, one has a liking for tears.
Each sign in wrestling is therefore endowed with an absolute clarity, since one must always understand everything on the spot. As soon as the adversaries are in the ring, the public is overwhelmed with the obviousness of the roles. As in the theatre, each physical type expresses to excess the part which has been assigned to the contestant. Thauvin, a fifty-year-old with an obese and sagging body, whose type of asexual hideousness always inspires feminine nicknames, displays in his flesh the characters of baseness, for his part is to represent what, in the classical concept of the salaud, the 'bastard' (the key-concept of any wrestling-match), appears as organically repugnant. The nausea voluntarily provoked by Thauvin shows therefore a very extended use of signs: not only is ugliness used here in order to signify baseness, but in addition ugliness is wholly gathered into a particularly repulsive quality of matter: the pallid collapse of dead flesh (the public calls Thauvin la barbaque, 'stinking meat'), so that the passionate condemnation of the crowd no longer stems from its judgment, but instead from the very depth of its humours. It will thereafter let itself be frenetically embroiled in an idea of Thauvin which will conform entirely with this physical origin: his actions will perfectly correspond to the essential viscosity of his personage.

It is therefore in the body of the wrestler that we find the first key to the contest. I know from the start that all of Thauvin's actions, his treacheries, cruelties, and acts of cowardice, will not fail to measure up to the first image of ignobility he gave me; I can trust him to carry out intelligently and to the last detail all the gestures of a kind of amorphous baseness, and thus fill to the brim the image of the most repugnant bastard there is: the bastard-octopus. [Barthes goes on to describe other 'character roles' in wrestling, comparing them to stock characters in the Italian tradition of Commedia dell'Arte.] Wrestling is like a diacritic writing: above the fundamental meaning of his body, the wrestling arranges comments which are episodic but always opportune, and constantly help the reading of the fight by means of gestures, attitudes and mimicry which make the intention utterly obvious. Sometimes the wrestler triumphs with a repulsive sneer while kneeling on the good sportsman; sometimes he gives the crowd a conceited smile which forebodes an early revenge; sometimes, pinned to the ground, he hits the floor ostentatiously to make evident to all the intolerable nature of his situation [. . .]

[. . .]It is obvious that at such a pitch, it no longer matters whether the passion is genuine or not. What the public wants is the image of passion, not passion itself. There is no more a problem of truth in wrestling than in the theatre. In both, what is expected is the intelligible representation of moral situations which are usually private. [Barthes elaborates on this point, and again compares French wrestlers from the 1950s to characters in classical theater.]

[Iqbol]

What is thus displayed for the public is the great spectacle of Suffering, Defeat, and Justice. Wrestling presents man's suffering with all the amplification of tragic masks. The wrestler who suffers in a hold which is reputedly cruel (an arm-lock, a twisted leg) offers an excessive portrayal of Suffering; like a primitive Pietа, he exhibits for all to see his face, exaggeratedly contorted by an intolerable affliction. It is obvious, of course, that in wrestling reserve would be out of place, since it is opposed to the voluntary ostentation of the spectacle, to this Exhibition of Suffering which is the very aim of the fight. This is why all the actions which produce suffering are particularly spectacular, like the gesture of a conjuror who holds out his cards clearly to the public. Suffering which appeared without intelligible cause would not be understood; a concealed action that was actually cruel would transgress the unwritten rules of wrestling [. . . .] What wrestlers call a hold, that is, any figure which allows one to immobilize the adversary indefinitely and to have him at one's mercy, has precisely the function of preparing in a conventional, therefore intelligible, fashion the spectacle of suffering, of methodically establishing the conditions of suffering. The inertia of the vanquished allows the (temporary) victor to settle in his cruelty and to convey to the public this terrifying slowness of the torturer: [. . .] wrestling is the only sport which gives such an externalized image of torture. But here again, only the image is involved in the game, and the spectator does not wish for the actual suffering of the contestant; he only enjoys the perfection of an iconography. It is not true that wrestling is a sadistic spectacle: it is only an intelligible spectacle.
[Barthes discusses the forearm smash as a gesture signifying tragic catastrophe, then moves to the next major spectacle of wrestling: Defeat.] Deprived of all resilience, the wrestler's flesh is no longer anything but an unspeakable heap out on the floor, where it solicits relentless reviling and jubilation. [. . .] At other times, there is another ancient posture which appears in the coupling of the wrestlers, that of the suppliant who, at the mercy of his opponent, on bended knees, his arms raised above his head, is slowly brought down by the vertical pressure of the victor. In wrestling, unlike judo, Defeat is not a conventional sign, abandoned as soon as it is understood; it is not an outcome, but quite the contrary, it is a duration, a display, it takes up the ancient myths of public Suffering and Humiliation: the cross and the pillory. It is as if the wrestler is crucified in broad daylight and in the sight of all. I have heard it said of a wrestler stretched on the ground: 'He is dead, little Jesus, there, on the cross,' and these ironic words revealed the hidden roots of a spectacle which enacts the exact gestures of the most ancient purifications.


But what wrestling is above all meant to portray is a purely moral concept: that of justice. The idea of 'paying' is essential to wrestling, and the crowd's 'Give it to him' means above all else 'Make him pay.' This is therefore, needless to say, an immanent justice. The baser the action of the 'bastard,' the more delighted the public is by the blow which he justly receives in return. If the villain - who is of course a coward - takes refuge behind the ropes, claiming unfairly to have a right to do so by a brazen mimicry, he is inexorably pursued there and caught, and the crowd is jubilant at seeing the rules broken for the sake of a deserved punishment. [. . .] Naturally, it is the pattern of Justice which matters here, much more than its content: wrestling is above all a quantitative sequence of compensations (an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth). This explains why sudden changes of circumstances have in the eyes of wrestling habitueйs a sort of moral beauty; they enjoy them as they would enjoy an inspired episode in a novel [. . . .]

It is therefore easy to understand why out of five wrestling-matches, only about one is fair. One must realize, let it be repeated, that 'fairness' here is a role or a genre, as in the theatre: the rules do not at all constitute a real constraint; they are the conventional appearance of fairness. So that in actual fact a fair fight is nothing but an exaggeratedly polite one; the contestants confront each other with zeal, not rage [they don't keep pounding after the referee intervenes, etc.] One must of course understand here that all these polite actions are brought to the notice of the public by the most conventional gestures of fairness: shaking hands, raising the arms, ostensibly avoiding a fruitless hold which would detract from the perfection of the contest.

Conversely, foul play exists only in its excessive signs: administering a big kick to one's beaten opponent, [. . .] taking advantage of the end of the round to rush treacherously at the adversary from behind, fouling him while the referee is not looking (a move which obviously only has any value or function because in fact half the audience can see it and get indignant about it). Since Evil is the natural climate of wrestling, a fair fight has chiefly the value of being an exception. It surprises the aficionado, who greets it when he sees it as an anachronism and a rather sentimental throwback to the sporting tradition ('Aren't they playing fair, those two'); he feels suddenly moved at the sight of the general kindness of the world, but would probably die of boredom and indifference if wrestlers did not quickly return to the orgy of evil which alone makes good wrestling.

It has already been noted that in America wrestling represents a sort of mythological fight between Good and Evil (of a quasi-political nature, the 'bad' wrestler always being supposed to be a Red [Communist]). The process of creating heroes in French wrestling is very different, being based on ethics and not on politics. What the public is looking for here is the gradual construction of a highly moral image: that of the perfect 'bastard.' [Barthes goes into detail about the French 'model bastard.']

[. . .] Wrestlers, who are very experienced, know perfectly how to direct the spontaneous episodes of the fight so as to make them conform to the image which the public has of the great legendary themes of its mythology. A wrestler can irritate or disgust, he never disappoints, for he always accomplishes completely, by a progressive solidification of signs, what the public expects of him. In wrestling, nothing exists except in the absolute, there is no symbol, no allusion, everything is presented exhaustively. Leaving nothing in the shade, each action discards all parasitic meanings and ceremonially offers to the public a pure and full signification, rounded like Nature. This grandiloquence is nothing but the popular and age-old image of the perfect intelligibility of reality. What is portrayed by wrestling is therefore an ideal understanding of things; it is the euphoria of men raised for a while above the constitutive ambiguity of everyday situations and placed before the panoramic view of a universal Nature, in which signs at last correspond to causes, without obstacle, without evasion, without contradiction.

When the hero or the villain of the drama, the man who was seen a few minutes earlier possessed by moral rage, magnified into a sort of metaphysical sign, leaves the wrestling hall, impassive, anonymous, carrying a small suitcase and arm-in-arm with his wife, no one can doubt that wrestling holds the power of transmutation which is common to the Spectacle and to Religious Worship. In the ring, and even in the depths of their voluntary ignominy, wrestlers remain gods because they are, for a few moments, the key which opens Nature, the pure gesture which separates Good from Evil, and unveils the form of a Justice which is at last intelligible.

[chautruong]

what yours opnion about Barthes's works?

[gulya_21]

http://www.i-u.ru/biblio/archive/kamu_mifosiz/ec13.aspx

Mif o Sizife:
Боги приговорили Сизифа поднимать огромный камень на вершину горы, откуда эта глыба неизменно скатывалась вниз. У них были основания полагать, что нет кары ужасней, чем бесполезный и без надежный труд.

Если верить Гомеру, Сизиф был мудрейшим и осмотрительнейшим из смертных...........

[Iqbol]

what yours opnion about Barthes's works?

I am not yet familiar with works of Roland Barthes.
But very first excursions to his world gives me a will to continue with his works.
If he is interested in decoding the ancient mythes, he does this with intention of giving us tools and means to decode the modern mythes we are served by our leaders, our journalists,etc.
And, I think modern mythes are dangerous in that ancient mythes are read for litterary interest. But, modern mythes are made believed in order to control us, in order to hide the truthes for us.
In addition to Barthes' works on mythology, one can read, with great interest, his works on the language, the political use of the language.

[Iqbol]

Don't you think that we have too many modern mythes, like: the naturalness of muslim violence; that only Western mind could develop authentic civilisation; that other civilisations are bound to follow in the western pathes; etc?

[Iqbol]

Leviathan a Myth (http://olldownload.libertyfund.org/Texts/LFBooks/Oakeshott0193/Hobbes/PDFs/0091_Pt05_Chap4.pdf)
on Hobbes book and the myth

[Iqbol]

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showforum=80

A forum on different stuff related to legends, mythes, etc