Did you read "Afghanistan"?

[X-bola]

Hi everybody,

Is the information about Afganistan true? I did not about that.

X-bola

[Javanmard]

Yes X-bola, unfortunately it is true...the thing is the women will slowly become used to living like animals and if nothing is done now people will just forget.

Petitions wont do it though. Thank God the UN is going to keep imposing sanctions. Starve the Taliban out!!!

[muslim]

Yeah starve them like they are starving the Iraqis. It is good for the "free world" isn't it? I mean, Saddam has been driven out because of the sanctions, hasn't he? I mean if "good guys" starve the county's of "bad guys", then the world will eventually "become safe for democracy."

Do you know that there was rampant raping and killing of women going on during the Rabbani regime? Isnt that called women hating? Or is it called democracy?

[Shasha]

Yesli koye kto ne bil v Afghanistane, to luchshe yemu ne govorit ob etom. Besporno, otstutstviye prav u jenishin v kakom-libo gosudarstve - eto vesh' ochen plohaya i s neyu nado borotsya. No na kakih istochnikah osnovanna infromatsiya na scheot afghanistana ? Yesli na Rossiyskih, to oni uje vrali ne odin raz. Yesh'o raz poverit im- eto toje samoye chto pozvolit' vilivat' toje samoye g@vno na nashu golovu yesh'o raz. Pro zarubejniye SMI, mygko govorya, toje nelzya skazat' chto oni voobsh'e nikogda ne vrali. Krome togo, nujno nakonets taki viyasnit voobsh'e chto takoye prava jensh'in. Yesli jensh'ini v Afghanistane ne jivut tochno tak kak ihniye rossiykiye "kollegi", to eto ne dayot pravo Rossiyskim ili drugim SMI ukazivat' afghankam kak im jit'.
Tak chto, moyo mneniye, pered tem kak obvinyat kogo libo luchshe sperva viyasnit vinovat li on, a potom, yesli on uje vinovat, to hotya bi sformulirovat obvineniye. Nu a uje posle resheniya suda mojno budet skazat kto vinoat. Yasno, chto obvinyayemya storona ne mojet bit sudyey v silu togo chto ona uje predstvalyayet soboy obvineniye......

[Freestyler]

I vsyo taki yesli jenshini ne dovol'ni - eto uje ploho, yesli ih ne slushayut - yesho huje.
A ya uveren imenno tak i stalo v Afghanistane s prihodom dikarey talibov s ih varvarskimi moralyu patriarhal'nogo obshestva i merami nakazaniy.
Neujeli, Shasha, ti dumayesh chto jenshini-afganki schastlivi bili prinyat' rejim talibov?
Chto za mazohistki oni doljni bit' togda...

I potom nikto ne ukazival kak jit' afgankam, prosto sochustvuyushiye lyudi iz razvitih stran starayutsya zashitit' prava i svobodi afganok (da i afgancev toje) iz chistogo chuvstva solidarnosti. A tvoi obvineniya prosto naprosto cinizm po otnosheniyu k nim.

Dima bez ognya ne bivayet, Shasha

[Dilshod]

Esli khotite uznat chto talibi tvoryat sprosite u bezhentsev kotorie sobralis na ostrovke Pyandzha, na granitse Tajikistana.
Afganistan eto strana s samoi tyazheloy sudboi. Zavoyu istoriyu Afganistan nikogda ne posyagala na zhizn drugikh stran; no etu stranu vsegda "iznasiluyut" chuzhaki. Sperva bila Angliya, potom USSR, potom talibane - otrode zubi drakonov Pakistana. No Sovetskogo Soyuza zdes obvinyat nelzya, tak kak sobaka bila zarita na drugom meste: so storoni SSSR eto absolyutno bilo bi glupo inache postupit v toi geopoliticheskoi igre s Amerikoi. 10 let voini eto detishe Ameriki. Reigan govoril, "Ya prevrashsyu Afganistan dlya SSSR v to chto bilo Vietnamom dlya Ameriki". No sut v tom chto Amerika zhestoko voevela protiv Vietnama, togda kogda SSSR sili bili mirotvorcheskimi, i v otlichie ot Amerikantsev u sovetskikh ne bilo nikakikh ambitsiy nakazat afganskiy narod i pokazivat sebya silnim. Prosto naverno SSSR svoim medvezhey lapoy neostorozno pochesal khrupkuyu spinu Afganistana. Protiv "nevernikh" voevali na amerakanskuyu zarplatu (bit soldatom v thesyakh zarabotat eto tak zhe vpolne estestvenna kak lozhno i obmanchivo mnenie luydi dobrie voyuut za svobodu). Poetomu Severniy Alyans, bivshiy vrag, v nastoyashee vremya imeet khoroshee otnoshenie s Rossiey. Oba khorosho ponimayut i mogut otsenit chego kazhdiy khotel dobitsya i chem bila podpitana iknie deystviya. V nastoyashie dni Afganskaya vmeshatelstvo togo perioda nastolko izvrashenno interpretirietsya, chto kak budto ves mir i vse strani bili angelami, a bivshiy Souyuz bil dyavolom. A khirosime i Ngasake vse molchat. K tomu zhe Amerika rodila zhe etogo Usama bin Ladena.

V nastoyashi dni v Afganistane edinstvenno patrioticheskuyu voinu vedyot Severniy Alyans. On rodilsya tam i ne imeet nikakikh ambitsiy otnositelno za predeli Afganistana. A talibi... Oni davno obyavili voinu protiv nevernikh. Oni obeshayut ne posyagat na sosedey. No eto dolg delat vsekh vas nastoyashimi po iknemu vzglaudu musulamanami. Ikhnya obeshanie groshi ne stoit tak kak po ikhniym musulmanskim zakonam ti imeesh prava lgat "pyanomu, vragu, sumashedshemu i nevernomu".

Spasibo,

Dilshod

[Somebody]

"A ya uveren imenno tak i stalo v Afghanistane s prihodom dikarey talibov s ih varvarskimi moralyu patriarhal'nogo obshestva i merami nakazaniy"- I would suggest you to think before writing dear Umidie.They do not sodomize each other as you guys do in your prisons.
"Neujeli, Shasha, ti dumayesh chto jenshini-afganki schastlivi bili prinyat' rejim talibov?- Do you think they would be glad if they had lived under the kuffar like you. Talebans do not insert a bottle in prisoner's anus because of their beliefs.You talk about women rights, yet your men are being raped in front of their mothers and daughters.
"I potom nikto ne ukazival kak jit' afgankam, prosto sochustvuyushiye lyudi iz razvitih stran starayutsya zashitit' prava i svobodi afganok (da i afgancev toje) iz chistogo chuvstva solidarnosti" Who the heck you are to teach them how to live. None has a right to impose democracy as well as islam on anybody.
"Dima bez ognya ne bivayet, Shasha", of course if there are people like who ignite the fire there are should be then something. The women in afghanistan are happier than your women.They are happy because they are living under the banner of islam, not the oppressors like you. There are thousands of women in afghanistan who attend the schools and work at the permitted places. Do you want afghanis to be like your own women who spend their lives in bazaars for mere money, the whomen who lost ther dignity and walk half covered and half naked.I have visited afghanistan in september 1999, and found out that they have improved a lot, and the talebans love and respect the women more than any of you in Uzbekistan.Hell to that kinda democracy where you sodomize each other. Hell to YOUR Democracy, wait for US, Inshallah we will kick you (kuffar) out and show you what the Real Justice is.I would not use this freakin' anonymizer if my Uzbeki friend did not beg me,I see you are afraid of each other and can't say what you really wanna say.And you call this democracy? You are afraid because you know that you guys have no law, no respect for human rights, and no democracy at all. My Dear Turkey is far more better than your freakin' Iran, and Uzbekistan.Inshallah the real muslims of Turkey will liberate Turkish, Uzbekistani,and Irani women. Long Life Turkey, the sons of Islaam and the students of Said Nursi (rahimallah alayh.)

[Dilshod]

Somebody,
Seryozno govorya, vashi plani mne kazhutsya voobshe smutnimi. Protiv kogo budesh voevat protiv naroda ili rezhima? I kto takie kuffiri (po tvoemu mneniyu? I mne interesno bilo bi uznat tvoyo mnenie naschet message naverkhu u tebya (mi pisali v odno i to zhe vremya naverno, poetomu boyus etot message ostayotsya ne zamechennim dlya tebya).

Tashakkur,

Dilshod

[Javanmard]

Dear Somebody,

I have read your message and have to say that you may be correct in stating that some Central governments are corrupt. Also, (pls. all Uzbeks don't get upset) I live in a country that was full of Uzbek Prostitutes back in the mid-ninties, but thankfully has stopped!!

But these wrongs do not make Afghan wrongs right!!! The people of Uzbekistan and all of Central Asia (including Iran) are trying to improve in their own way. The Taliban is a step backwards..We must have real democracy not oppresion. And BTW, Iran has an Islamic government not Turkey, who I am sorry to say have a military dictatorship. And about how Uzbeks treat their prisoners at least they did go into a Prison and kill 23 inmates like the Turks did last week!!!

I have nothing against the Turkish people but you government is not exemplery.

Also, your line " My Dear Turkey is far more better than your freakin' Iran, and Uzbekistan.Inshallah the real muslims of Turkey will liberate Turkish, Uzbekistani,and Irani women. Long Life Turkey, the sons of Islaam and the students of Said Nursi (rahimallah alayh.)" We do not need you to "liberate" our women.

Thanks but no thanks!!!!

[somebodybut who]

Could you send me e-mail with your name intomy address?
I have to talk to you really about some of your opinions individually. umid2000@yahoo.com
Thanks.

[somebodybut who]

MY e-mail is not umid2000@yahoo.com. It was my mistake butwhosomebody@hotmail.com.
Take care

[Freestyler]

Exceptionally to <Somebody>:

You wrote:
"Do you think they would be glad if they had lived under the kuffar like you?"

- At least they would be still alive (I mean the women from the article who were stoned to death for nothing)
Besides, I did not suggest the afghani people to live under "the kuffar like me".

Let it be Islam they want to live in , but let it be humane Islam, democratic Islam. I think during the regimes of Hikmatiyar the afghani people were happier (but not happy) then they are now.

That's what I was trying to tell.

Besides, do you understand russian?
From your answers to my citations it seems as if you had failed to follow their logic.

And one more thing, cool down.

Keep it Sober

[Freestyler]

Said Nursi???

<Somebody>, isn't that Said Nursi the person whose politcal views have been banned in your beloved Turkey?
The movement of the so called "Nurciler" - am I right?

[Javanmard]

Somebody, if you want to say anything say it right here...because if I give you my e-mail I will get one of the below things:-

1) a lot of swearing from you!!
2) Mullah propaganda
3) both of the above.

Lets keep it open and honest so everybody can read. :)

Thanks for understanding.

[muslim]

To Javanmard and Freestyler:
Tell me guys, do any of you know anything about the REAL Islamic governmental system? If so, then please enlighten me. I am under the impression you guys should know a whole lot about the Islamic system in order to issue the judgements that you do.

Come on guys, I doubt that Afghanistan will end up anything like Ayatollah's Iran. It is not going to be ruled by Mullahs-cum-Popes like Khomeini. And even so, Iran is not doing as bad as it was under Reza Shah Pahlavi, who pretty much was raping the entire nation for the benefit of the West. If any Iranian/Persian knows their history, the Shah was not a good person -- except to the westernized elitists that fled the country during the 1979 revolution. Which brings me to another point.

To Dilshod:
Bro, you say that we should be asking the refugees (that have gathered up along the border of Tajikistan), of what is 'really' happening in Afghanistan. I have been alerted to the fact (and correct me if I am wrong), that Massoud and his supporters currently occupy that area. So im guessing out of those refugees, the vast majority (or maybe all of them), were Massoud's supporters and/or soldiers who fled the advancing Talibans.<font color="FF70CC"> If that is so, then this has nothing to do with the way Taliban is handling people and more with a simple war practicality:</font> If your adversary in battle is chasing you, of course you are gonna run for your dear life!

I believe that in once Afghanistan gets its infrastructure repaired and in place, and once the region comes into stability, a very promising system of government will take place, Insha-Allah.

Because nobody should expect a stable government to arise from chaos -- with 'fair' and 'just' laws -- just like that. If you guys know your history then you know what exactly I am talking about.

<font color="0000FF">During the days of the American Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln suspended the habeas corpus, and denied the people the right to speak out or redress the government, until the civil war was over.

</font>During the days when the Roman Republic (note: not the empire period) was in some rough times, a simple farmer by the name of Cincinnatus took over as a dictator to stabilize things. (Also, please take into reference that he managed to stabilize the Repubic without any outside interference, thank you.

<font color="CC3000">The French revolution that was supposed to bring in democracy, was not without rampant lawlessness, violence, and heavy handed techniques of its own. And the revolution itself ended up bringing in a dictator by the name of Napoleon Bonaparte. Who ended up taking over almost all of Europe and causing destruction for a while. Why? Because all those European nations took it upon themselves to interfere in the revolution to protect the old regime of the despotic French Monarchy to protect their own despotic governmental systems from similar revolutions.</font><font color="007000"> (This especially should ring a de-ja-vu bell for all of you in Iran and Central Asia and maybe Russia also. Perhaps you can prevent it, because knowing Afghans, them being a very vengeful lot and all, i.e. badal......)</font>

There is so much more from history to cite for you guys, but I think I have written more than enough. Uzbekistan also has its own example of suspending the habeas corpus, that I leave leave for some Uzbek brother to explain in detail.

Anyways, I hope you have read this and understood what I am trying to get at and hope you will give afghanistan a break.

Thank you.<center>[B]

[Freestyler]

To &lt;Mahmud>:

As far as I can judge, there is no conventional, broadly agreed REAL Islamic governmental system.

There are lots of different views on it, so called schools or movements, which often contradict and deny each other. To take the example of Turkey, I know two different "tarikacilar" groups ("Nurculer" and "Suleymancilar"), which both propose differnet ideologies and systems of Islamic Government (the first has been illegalised for its attempts to intervene in the government policies). I am also aware of the hidden mutual distrust between the two movements, although both claim that they are REAL muslims and that only they know the true way to the true Islam.
To take the example of Uzbekistan, I know that the movement of the nurculer got spread since 1993 when the branch of turkish licees was opened throughout Uzbekistan. Other, more powerful and dangerous movements are wellknown to common uzbek - they are: Hezbit-Tahrir and and Vohabits. Between these, there is also constant misunderstanding and disagreement.

And now, &lt;Mahmud> I would like to know your view of the REAL Islam and Islamic government.

Respectfully

[Student]

I think the official position of Uzbekistan in this is correct, Uzb is ready to deal with every government supported by afghani people. The experience of last years showed that Taliban is capable to restore order in territories controlled by them and has presented no threat to neighbouring countries (russian media has always been talking about Taliban's plans to occupy Central Asia, Caucasus by Talibs). And drug trafficking was not less in previous rulers of Afghanistan, they all deal with drugs, it's fact that Afghani people major in cultivating and trade of drugs.

I have a little idea about government structure of Islamic Taliban, except their claims that they live under rules of pure Islam. I wonder if people of Afghanistan have had an opportunity to participate in building of their de-facto government, if they have had public elections etc. What I read about Taliban was about violation of women rights and imposing sharia rule by force (ex. The north of Afghanistan, Hirat was taken by the Talibs by force and they carried out slaughters against national and religious minorities (Uzbeks, tajiks and khazaras etc), because they delivered heavy causalities on Taliban’s militia. And the fact that Talibs are mainly pashtus, means other minorities are not duely represented in rule of Taliban.

If present Afghanistan want international recognition, it should have good relations with the west, primarily with the States(extradition of Usama ben, declaration of equal rights for both sexes etc).

Taliban gained the support from the population, and if the afganis accept Talibans rule - it’s a choise of afghani people, it should be respected. Third countries should not interfere in afghani matters, like Pakistan and Russia are doing right now.

P.S. It’s very hard to see equality of men and women in a fundamentalist religious society, be it islamic or Christian. If afghanis prefer to live under such a regime it’s their choice. You can have a look to history; example in Islam it is regulated that a men may merry 4 women (I have a question, why a woman may not merry 4 men?;)), I don’t know about Christians, but they used to discriminate women too.

[Freestyler]

Very clever!
I agree