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Freestyler
12-27-2000, 12:06 PM
Hi, guys! You've gotta read this.
I've run across the brochure yesterday night and read it till the end - so engaging it was. The author, Bernard Lewis, takes a holistic approach offering a historical outlook to the political situation in the Middle East and Central Asia.
It should be equally interesing to all of you who are now participating in the discussions on the topics of religion, democracy and politics on this board.
What I liked most about this article is that it offers a virtually unbiased, objecitve analysis, taking a positive view rather then a normative (i.e., showing "what it is", rather then "what it should be")
I hope you will learn and clarify as many things for yourselves as I did from the brochure.
Despite it being intolerably long, I think you will be very much rewarded for your spent time.
I also want you to make analogues whenever you come across the topic of the Middle East" with Central Asia, because the situation seems quite to be repeating itself in our region, too.
(After all the discussions on the related topics on this board and after reading the brochure I felt as we were in some kind of scientific experiment while the author was the scientist conducting the experiment and making valuable notes) So here I am, trying to share my modest experience
Below are only the introductory part of the brochure and some extracts from the body:

================================================== ===========================
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<The Future of the Middle East>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

According to a conventiosn commonly agreed among historians, the modern history of the Middle East begins at the turn of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, when a French expeditionary force commanded by General Napoleon Bonaparte invaded and conquered Egypt and stayed there until it was forced to leave by a squadron of the Royal Navy commanded by Admiral Horatio Nelson. This was the first Western advance against the previously dominant power of Islam. But it was the first incursion from the West into the heartlands of the Islamic world.

This began a period during which ultimate power, and with it responsibility, for what happened in this region resided elsewhere; when the basic theme of international relations and of much else in the Middle East was shaped by the rivalries of Non-Middle Eastern states. These rivalries went through several successful phases – interference, intervention, penetration, domination and, in the final phase, reluctant departure. From time to time the actors in the drama changed and the script was modified, but the basic pattern remained the same. In the final act of this drama two external superpowers whose rivalry dominated the Middle East were the Soviet Union and the United States.

Future historians of the region may well agree on a new convention of periodization – that the era in the Middle Eastern history, which was opened by Napoleon and Nelson, was closed by Bush and Gorbachev. In the crisis of 1990-1 precipitated by Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait, neither of the two superpowers played the imperial role which tradition and popular expectation assigned to it; the one because it could not, the other because it would not.
Moscow, once so great a force in the Middle Eastern affairs, could neither restrain nor rescue Saddam Hussein. Washington, having freed Kuwait from occupation and Saudi Arabia from the threat of invasion, had accomplished its war aims and unilaterally declared a cease fire, leaving Saddam’s regime intact and permitting him, with only minor impediments to crush his domestic opponents and in due course resume his policies.

As long as the Soviet Union existed, and as long as the Cold War was the main theme policy, American presence in the Middle East was part of a global strategy designed to cope with a global confrontation. With the ending of that confrontation such a strategy became unnecessary. No discernible strategy has yet emerged to replace it.

The break-up of the Soviet Union brought another important consequence – the emergence of eight new sovereign independent states in Transcaucasia and Central Asia. Two of these, Georgia and Armenia, are Christian; the rest Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, are predominantly Muslim. All these countries are part of the historic Middle East, linked to it by a thousand ties of culture, language and history. The Tajik language is a form of Persian; the other five Muslim states use languages related to Turkish. The Turks, Persian and Afghans show increasing interest in their newly liberated kinsfolk across the former Soviet frontier. They are also interested in those other Muslim peoples – Tatars, Bashkirs, Chechens, Circassians and others, who remain within the Russian federation. The same interest will in time extend to the Muslims of Chinese Central Asia.

The emergence of a world of Turkic states, like Arab world that emerged from the break-up of the British and French empires, will be increasingly important in the decades to come, and will have a significant effect on the Middle East to which they are now returning. But there are differences between the two cases. With a few exceptions - Algeria, Aden – British and French rule in the Arab world was indirect and of brief duration, The Transcaucasian and Central Asian territories were annexed by the tsars and retained by the Soviets under a thin veneer of federalism. Their experience of imperial rule was in many ways profoundly different from that of the Arabs. Their efforts to disentangle themselves from their former masters offer some similarities to the early stages of Arab independence. But they will be dealing with Moscow, not with London or Paris; with land-based power, not with a maritime and commercial ascendancy. The course and perhaps the outcome of their struggle for the true independence will surely reflect these differences.

For the time being however, Russia is out of the game and likely to remain so for some years to come; America is reluctant to return. This means that in many significant respects the situation reverts to what it was before. Outside powers have interests in the region, both strategic and economic; they may from time to time interfere in the Middle Eastern affairs, or even influence their course. But their role will no longer be one of domination or decision.

Many in the Middle East are having difficulty in adjusting themselves to the new situation created by the departure of the imperial powers. For the first time in almost 200 years, the rulers and peoples of the Middle East are having to accept the final responsibility for their own affairs, to make their own mistakes and to accept the consequences. This is difficult to internalise, even to perceive, after so long a period. For the entire lifetimes of those who formulate and conduct policy at the present time and their predecessors for many generations, vital decisions were made elsewhere, ultimate control lay elsewhere, and the principal task of statesmanship and diplomacy was as far as possible to avoid or reduce the dangers of this situation and to exploit such opportunities as it might from time to time offer. It is very difficult to forsake the habits not just of a lifetime but of a whole era of history. The difficulty is much greater when alien cultural, social and economic pre-eminence continues and even increases, despite the ending of alien political and military domination.

Military and to a growing extent political intervention by the West has indeed ended, but the impact of its science and culture, its technology, amenities and institutions remains and even increases. As in other parts of non-Western world, this impact has been and will be enormous.

In these circumstances, it is natural that the Middle Easterners continue to assume – and proceed on the assumption – that the real responsibility and decision still lie elsewhere. In its crudest form, this belief leads to wild and strange conspiracy theories directed against those whom they regard as their enemies – Israel, and more generally the Jews, The United States, and more generally the West. No theory is too absurd to be asserted or too preposterous to be widely and instantly believed. Even among more responsible statesmen and analysts, a similar belief in an alien power, albeit in a less crude form, often seems to guide both analysis and policy. Some even go so far as to invite outside intervention, presumably in the belief that only outside powers have the capacity to make and enforce decisions. A case in point is the constant appeal to the United States to involve itself in the Arab-Israel conflict, oddly coupled with the repeated accusation of “American Imperialism”.

This state of mind is likely to continue for some time, with appeals for support or even intervention to the United States, to Russia and even to the European Union. In time, no doubt, Middle Eastern governments and peoples will learn how to use this window of opportunity to the best advantage – that is, of course, if the window remains open long enough.

Those who accuse the West and more particularly the United States of “imperialist designs” on the Middle East are tilting against shadows from the past. There is however another charge with more substance – that of cultural penetration.

American culture differs from all its predecessors in two important respects. First, it is independent of political control and extends far beyond the areas of American political dominance or even influence, as for example in Islamic Iran or communist China. Second, it is in profound sense popular. Previous cultural expansions were limited to political and intellectual elites. American popular culture appeals to every element of the population and especially to the young. It also brings a special message to elements disempowered in the traditional order, notably women. Not surprisingly, therefore, it is seen as a mortal threat by both the defenders of tradition and the exponents of fundamentalist ideologies. How that threat is perceived is clear from Khomeini’s repeated characterisation of the United States as the “Great Satan”. No intelligence service is needed to interpret this epithet – just a copy of the Qur’an. The last verses, the best known along with the first, talk about Satan, describing him as “the insidious tempter who whispers in the heart of men”. Satan is neither a conqueror nor an exploiter. He is a seducer, most dangerous when he smiles.

The challenge of the Western culture has been a major theme in Middle Eastern debate for almost two centuries. American popular culture presents this challenge in its most recent and also its most pervasive form. Middle Eastern rulers, leaders and thinkers have offered and will no doubt continue to offer various responses to this challenge – imitate, adopt, adapt, absorb, or complain, denounce, reject.


FAITH OR FREEDOM

When General Bonaparte arrived in 1978 there were only two sovereign states in the Middle East: Turkey and Iran. Today, these are resuming their inescapable roles as the major powers of the region. The regimes in both, in their present form, were founded by revolution – the secular republic of Turkey and the Islamic republic of Iran. Both are inspired by revolutionary ideologies, which might be named after their founders as Kemalism and Khomeinism. And both ideologies, albeit in very different ways, are under attack at home.

Today, increasing numbers of Middle Easterners, disillusioned with the past ideals and – in many countries – alienated from their present rulers, are turning their thoughts of their loyalties to one or other of these two ideologies – liberal democracy and Islamic fundamentalism. Each offers e reasoned diagnosis of the ills of the region, and a prescription for its cure.

In this struggle, fundamentalism disposes of several advantages. It uses language that is similar and intelligible, appealing to the vast mass of the population in a Muslim country. At a time of economic deprivation and political oppression, many are ready to believe that these evils are a result of alien and infidel machinations, and that the remedy is a return to the original, authentic way of Islam. The fundamentalists also have an immense advantage over other opposition groups in that the mosques and their personnel provide them with a network for meeting and communication, which even the most tyrannical of governments cannot suppress or entirely control. Indeed, tyrannical regimes help their fundamentalist opponents by eliminating competing oppositions.

The exponents of democracy in contrast offer a programme and a language that are unfamiliar and, for many, unintelligible. They have further disadvantage that the name of democracy and those of the parties and parliaments through which it operates have been tarnished in the eyes of many Muslims by the corrupt and inept regimes that used these names in the recent past. In contrast, appeals in the name of God and the Prophet to cleanse society by restoring his holy law have a force and immediacy unattainable by democrats whose arguments and examples, indeed, whose vocabulary is recognisably alien. An Arabic loanword like "dimuqratiyya" lacks the resonance of "shari’a".
...
The strength of the democrats, and the corresponding weaknesses of the fundamentalist, is that the former have a programme of development and betterment, while the latter offer only a return to a mythologized past.
...The problem is that the weaknesses of the democrats are immediate and obvious; their strength are long-term, and therefore for many, obscure.
...
(To be continued)
P.S. All the bold, italics, underline formats are my job and might probably reflect my bias, if some of you will sens one.

Keep it ...

Freestyler
12-27-2000, 12:07 PM
Oops, no specific formats in here...

Chitatel
12-29-2000, 06:26 AM
Tak znachit ti Bernard Lewis'a chitayesh? Malades, krutoy intelectual :)). Kstati kak knijka nazivayetsya?
Na moy vzglyad analogii zdes provodit dovolno tyajelo. Tem bolyee, naskolko Ya ponyal iz etogo otrivka rech idet skoree o protivostoyanii kultur Vostok-Zapad i meste Islama v sovremennom mire. (Lubimiy konek B. Lewis'a).
Middle East, vsegda bil chastyu Westren Civilization, v proshlom kak anti-pod, a v posledneye vremya vse bolshe kak okraina. On kak bi vistupayet predstavitelem vostochnoy kulturi i Islama. V to vremya kak Central Asia, dolgoye vremya ostavalas terra incognita dlya zapada, ili kak milo obozval nas Zbignev Brejinskiy v svoyem poslednem opuse- "Black Hole of Evrasia". O nas malo znayut i v printsipe nami ne ochen interesuyutsya, schitaya chto Central Asia lejit v sfere interesov Rossii.

Afandi
01-03-2001, 05:57 PM
Hi freestyler,

i am still waiting for the second part of the article, it is indeed excitingly interesting.

can we reach this source by any means, preferably internet
cheers
afandi

Lucky
01-03-2001, 08:57 PM
heheh, Ironically, I read the same stuff yeasterday in another book called "Oil and Islam : the ticking bomb / Farid A. Khavari" (he quotes from Bernard Lewis) It is not surprising that I smell the jewish work and of course the jew too. Do you guys know whom I am talkin' about? Of course, I am talkin' about professor Bernard Lewis. An antislamic writer, who teaches at Princeton. Basically, it is up to you to decide. As far as Farid A.Khavari, he is originally from Iran, professor of economics and a prolific writer in economics (this guy is also antiislamic writer, he lies a lot about islam and prophet of islam(pbuh).) He has special hatred towards islam because his fellow bahai's were kicked from iran with establishment of Islamic Republic of Iran (Iran with its great economic and military potential has been threat to the Western interest in Middle East (of course,I am talkin' about "oil")). Iran is really not a GOOD representative of Islam (do not forget this) and I do not hesitate rather to call it an antiislamic state. So, Farid A.Khavari hates islam because of Iran which is not itself, as was mentioned, islamic (both teachings and ideology.)
Cheers, ;)

Javanmard
01-03-2001, 11:36 PM
Thanks Freestyler,

That was pretty informative....I will also post some stuff later on and would like to ask you a few questions...

By the way are you Uzbek???

OPTIMIST
01-04-2001, 12:54 AM
Freestyler,

This is really interesting, could you please paste the second part also, or else let us have the name of the book, or the leaflet,

Thanks,

OPTIMIST ;)

afandi
01-04-2001, 10:46 AM
bolla,
yahoo'dan bernard lewis'ni search qilila, juda qiziqarli maqolalani topasila mainly about middle east, but still nice.
cheers,

afandi

Freestyler
01-04-2001, 11:29 AM
Hi, guys!
Sorry for not being around.

The name of the brochure is "The Future of the Middle East". It comes from a series of books under the title "Predictions", which is "a series of 24 short books in which some of the world's most distinguished academics and writers in their particular fields attempt to forecast the future over the next 50 years, across a range of social, economic, political, geographical and technological subject areas.(from the back of the book)"

This too more or less presupposes that the brochure is less likely to be biased and conceal some paranoical ideas of total jewish conspiracy, by which <Lucky> seems to be obsessed.

The brochure is actually 56 pages long and is in small shrift. I managed to type only 10 pages and it took me a hell lot of time. Unfortunately I haven't got enough time to finish the rest. I only would like to post the conlcuding part of the book. Those of you who are interested in the brochure, I hope, will be able to find it on your own. Sorry, I can't show you any related webpages.

To <Javanmard>: I am Uzbek, although more of a mixed blood.
Why do you want to know?

To <Chitatel>: Svoim sarkazmom i voobshe svoim otvetom ti pokazal chto ti ne meneye krutoy intellectual.

Keep it Sober

================================================== ===

A Return to Greatness?

In antiquity, the Middle East was the birthplace of human civilization and of monotheistic religion. In the Middle Ages, it was the home of the first truly international and intercultural society, the source of towering innovations and achievements in almost every field of science and technology, of culture and the arts. It was the base of a succession of great and vast empires. The last of them, in many ways the greatest, was the Ottoman Empire. In the 16th and 17th centuries, it was a mighty world power - its armies reached as far as Vienna, its ships sailed as far as Iceland and Sumatra. Since then there has been no Middle Eastern great power nor is there likely to be one until the Middle East has resolved the political, economic and societal problems that prevent it from accompliching the next stage in the advance of civilization.
The continuing struggle within the region, with the consequent diversion of energy and resources to the politics and weaponry or war, can only make a resumption of outside interference and domination more likely. If the Middle East falls under the rule of China or of a resurgent Russia, things will be different from the old days. Nationalist delegations will not follow each other to Beijing or Moscow as they used to go to London and Paris, to negotiate with their rulers and put their case before public opinion in the metropolis. Gandhi succeeded against Britain, the Intifada was effective against Israel. They would have had short shrift from such rulers as Hitler, Stalin or Saddam Hussein.
But there is another way - that of peace and progress. The second will depend very largely on the first. This requires from all parties a readiness to compromise on their own claims and willingness to tolerate the claims of others. Compromise and tolerance have not been much in evidence in the Middle East in the past, but there have been intermittent signs of both among some of the key players. If the different peoples of the region really pool their skills and resources, they may once again make the Middle East, as it was in an increasingly remote past, a mojor centre of human civilisation. If they do not, they and their children face a grim future.
For each and every country and for the region as a whole, there is a range of alternative futures: at one end, co-operation and progress towards peace and freedom, enlightment and prosperity; at the other, a vicious circle of poverty and ignorance, fear and violence, tyranny and anarchy, hatred and self-pity, leading perhaps in the end to a new alien domination.

======================

Respectfully

Freestyler

Chitatel
01-05-2001, 05:57 AM
Spasibo za kompliment Freestyler, no ti kajetsya obidelsya chto Ya nazval tebya intelectualom. Sorry, khotya Ya ne poymu chego zdes obidnogo.
Da, Ya tut nemnogo pokapalsya i nashol koye-kakie tvoi misli naschet WW2. Ochen khotelos bi podiskutirovat s toboy po etomu povodu.

Cheers

Afandi
01-05-2001, 06:40 AM
Freestyler,
can you do me a favour, scan the brochure and send to [EMAIL=afandiel@hotmail.com]afandiel@hotmail.com[/URL]
Of course, only if you have time to do so, i would really appreciate that.
I have a great interest in subjects related to middle east, that should explain my insistence.
many thanx in advance
afandi

Freestyler
01-05-2001, 08:55 AM
<Chitatel> - ti zrya dumayesh' chto ya obidelsya na tebya.
Dumayu mne sledovalo bi vstavit' "smiling face" (emoticon - virajayas' gramotneye), chtobi ti pravil'no ponyal menya. Odnako ya polenilsya - neobessut'.
Prosto mne hotelos' otvetit' komplimentom na kompliment. :)

Kasatel'no WWII: ya gotov s toboy podiskutirovat', hotya ne dumayu, chto budu ochen' poleznim, ya diletant v istorii.

<Afandi> - As soon as I have a chance, I'll scan the brochure and send it to you. For the time being, however, I am really busy - exams, you know.

afandi
01-05-2001, 10:31 AM
freestyler,

thanx mate,

afandi:)

Freestyler
01-07-2001, 11:17 AM
The second chapter of the brochure:
==================================================

FAITH OR FREEDOM

When General Bonaparte arrived in 1978 there were only two sovereign states in the Middle East: Turkey and Iran. Today, these are resuming their inescapable roles as the major powers of the region. The regimes in both, in their present form, were founded by revolution – the secular republic of Turkey and the Islamic republic of Iran. Both are inspired by revolutionary ideologies, which might be named after their founders as Kemalism and Khomeinism. And both ideologies, albeit in very different ways, are under attack at home.

Today, increasing numbers of Middle Easterners, disillusioned with the past ideals and – in many countries – alienated from their present rulers, are turning their thoughts of their loyalties to one or other of these two ideologies – liberal democracy and Islamic fundamentalism. Each offers e reasoned diagnosis of the ills of the region, and a prescription for its cure.

In this struggle, fundamentalism disposes of several advantages. It uses language that is similar and intelligible, appealing to the vast mass of the population in a Muslim country. At a time of economic deprivation and political oppression, many are ready to believe that these evils are a result of alien and infidel machinations, and that the remedy is a return to the original, authentic way of Islam. The fundamentalists also have an immense advantage over other opposition groups in that the mosques and their personnel provide them with a network for meeting and communication, which even the most tyrannical of governments cannot suppress or entirely control. Indeed, tyrannical regimes help their fundamentalist opponents by eliminating competing oppositions.

The exponents of democracy in contrast offer a programme and a language that are unfamiliar and, for many, unintelligible. They have further disadvantage that the name of democracy and those of the parties and parliaments through which it operates have been tarnished in the eyes of many Muslims by the corrupt and inept regimes that used these names in the recent past. In contrast, appeals in the name of God and the Prophet to cleanse society by restoring his holy law have a force and immediacy unattainable by democrats whose arguments and examples, indeed, whose vocabulary is recognisably alien. An Arabic loanword like "dimuqratiyya" lacks the resonance of "shari’a".

But thigs are changing. In countries where fundamentalists are a powerful force and still more in those where they rule, Muslims are learning to distinguish between Islam as an ethical religion and way of life and fundamentalism as ruthless political ideology. In countries where they oppose the regime, such as Egypt and Algeria {also Uzbekistan and Kirgizstan}, fundamentalist terrorists have shown a callous brutality that shocks and repels ordinary, decent believers. In countries where they rule, such as Iran and Sudan, they are, perhaps, inevitably, disappointing the high hopes that they evoked. The regime of the mullahs in Iran is not noticeably less corrupt than that which it replaced. It is more efficient and pervasively repressive, and increasing numbers of Iranians, in desperation, are turning against Islamic fundamentalism and sometimes even against Islam itself. Many good Muslims in Iran and elsewhere see in this a mortal danger to their faith and civilization, and there is a growing movement which challenges Islamic fundamentalism, not in the name of secularism, but in the name of Islam. The most serious challenge to the Iranian regime may well come from within its own ranks.

The fundamentalist regimes are also failing by the more palpable test of performance. In Iran, the effects of fundamentalist rule will for a while be palliated by the availability of money from oil and the remarkably skilfull use made of this resource in dealing with foreign governments and business corporations. But it is only a palliative, and of limited duration. In Sudan, where no such palliative exists, the most visible effects of fundamentalist rule are poverty, tyranny and unending internal warfare. The programmes and activities of fundamentalist oppositions in other countries promise nothing better. It is becoming increasingly clear that, whatever political and propoganda success they may achieve, fundamentaslist movements - and governments - have no real understanding of and therefore no solutions for the pressing problems of modern society. Their diagnosis is moral - society has been corrupted and enfeebled by pagan and infidel ways, especially in sexual matters, their remedy is legal - the restoration and strict enforcement of the holy law, that is to say, of those parts and those interpreations hat form the basis of fundamentalist ideology. The importance of morality and law is immense and obvious, but it does not suffice in confronting the pressing economic and social problems of the modern world. The resulting tensions grow daily more serious. They will become critical if these problems persist until the time when oil revenues are no longer available.

A triumph of Islamic fundamentalism would have far-reaching consequences outside as well as inside the region and would evoke sharp responses from other religions - and other findamentalisms. After the advent of Islam in the seventh century, Muslim jihad wrested vast lands from Christiendom and incorporated them in the realm of Islam. Several centuries later, Christianity - a religion with pacifist core - at last reacted with a jihad of its own, known as the Crusades. {Krestoviye pohodi}

It could happen again. Most Christians - even in the highest ecclesiastical hierarchies - have abandoned the triumphalism and militancy of their forebears. But Muslim triumphalism and militancy could bring revival, and there are signs that this already began. The problem begins with the position of non-Muslims in Muslim states. The very real tolerance once accorded by Muslim states to non-Muslims living under their rule was predicated on their acceptance of the supremacy of Islam and the primacy of the Muslims. When modern ideas disrupt the old consensus, the old tolerance comes under severe strain and is often broken. Attacks on Christians in Iran, in Egypt, in Algeria, in Sudan and elsewhere are reviving old and deep-rooted fears. They have also prompted, in some quarters, a perception of Islam as the new world menace, taking the place vacated by the defunct Soviet Union and its dead communist creed. For the time being at least, this veiw is an absurd axaggeration of the strentgh of Muslim militancy and a profound misinterprations of the nature of Islam. But the warnings of a new religious response to militant Islam are already there.

In the struggle between democracy and fundamentalism for power in Muslim lands, the democrats suffer from a very serious disadvantage. As democrats, they are obliged to allow the fundamentalists equal opportunity to conduct propoganda and to contend for power. If they fail in this duty, they are violating the very essence of their own democratic creed. Paradoxically it is the Western concern for democratic freedom itself, that sometimes prevents the Muslim secularists from dealing with this problem in the traditional way.

The fundamentalists are under no such disability. For them, winning an election is one of several possible roads to power - and it is one-way road on which there is no turning back. Fundamentalists, speaking at home, do not even pretend any commitment to democratic choice, and make it clear that , once in power, they would in no circumstances be willing to depart by the road through which they came. On the contrary, it would be their solemn duty to eradicate elements and ideas contrary to the law of God, and to enforce that law against all transgressors. The strength of the democrats, and the corresponding weaknesses of the fundamentalist, is that the former have a programme of development and betterment, while the latter offer only a return to a mythologized past. The problem is that the weaknesses of the democrats are immediate and obvious; their strength are long-term, and therefore for many, obscure.

Some speak of possible compromise between the rival extremes - a type of representative democracy not formally secular, in which a moderate but not fundamentalist Islam might play the role of the established churches in Britain and Scandinavia of the Christian democratic parties in Continental European countries. There is little sign of amy such compromise as yet ,and at the present time it seems unlikely that any will emerge. But the idea of a combination of freedom and faith in which neither excludes the other has achieved some results among Christians and may yet provide a workable solution for the problems of political Islam.

Until recently, one would have said that the best prospects for the emergence of such a compromise are in Turkey, a country in which most of the population are committed Muslims and in which a parliamentary democracy - albeit with difficulties and reversals - has now functioned for half a century. Turkey was the first Muslim country to establish and maintain such a democracy...

(to be continued...)
(To be continued)

Lucky
01-07-2001, 11:48 AM
What a big BS you are posting Freestyler!!! Do not you have anything good to talk about islam and muslims?
Cheers ;)

afandi
01-08-2001, 08:02 AM
Hi there,

thanx to Freestyler for posting the continuation of the message:)

this might be bit irrelevant to the topic, but nevertheless:
I have been observing the constant clash of opinions between Freestyler and Lucky for quite a while. Both have been strikingly persistent and rigorous in defending their points of view. I am afraid at times those clashes even extended to personalities.
I myself derived a great pleasure from reading your statements. My relative ignorance on the subject does not let me judge or take side of either party, but in my opinion you two guys sometimes take too extreme positions.

I am pretty sure that science often failed to explain all aspects of our existence and similarly the religion does not rul out science completely.

No offence intended

with best wishes
afandi :)

Lucky
01-08-2001, 09:50 AM
I hope we do not end up clashing and fighting each other;).However, we could differ greatly on our opinions on certain issues which I think it would definietly benefit the community 'cause without competition and equal opposition of opinions and ideas there won't be any progress. The problem is some "scholars" (actually antiislamic orientalists) can no more distinguish between extremism and fundamentalism. The guerrilas in Kirghizistan, Uzbekistan, Iran, Sudan are not "fundamentalist" muslims, they are extremists. One can go and ask any major scholar of islaam right now, I am sure he/she would definietly say that he/she is a fundamentalist muslim. Islam is based on the first teachings which is Quran and sunna of rasoolallah.And that's why more than %80 of the world muslims are in ahlisunna wal jamaa'. As far as those little dinky Zionists, they disclosed their enmity to islam. And they are trying to punch down this umma in many ways : political, economical, ideological. We have already people who do not feel for 300 people dead in palestine and talk about the women issues in Afghanistan. I would suggest those people simply to "shut the #### up". Who can say to me that women are being treated well in Uzbekistan as well as the western countries? Everyday, 1000 of american women come to hospital because of domestic violence and yet talkin' about uzbekistan, the men are being raped as a penny prostitute in our prisons and armies. How any of you underestimate such a gross sitiuation and make your tongues too much free that with no hesitation one is declared Wahabee another terrorist and the other one communist bastard or smth? What the heck is goin' on folks? walk around and learn from reality, it is that simple.
Cheers ;)

Afandi
01-08-2001, 01:23 PM
I hate being dragged into this kind of pathetic debate:(

dear Lucky,

I do appreciate your sympathy towards muslims and devotion to Islam. I do realize the current situation so called reality, but i believe that the main cause of our problems does not lie in global jewish conspiracy or other plots against our muslim brothers. It lies with ourselves, because we are muslims in our words only, not in our deeds. And the fact is that we are lagging far behind western countries. We, muslims, posses huge resources of wealth gas, oil, gold etc.
Nevertheless there is no unanimity of any kind in our policy, often we end up betraying our closest brothers not only at political but also social level. I don't need to go very far for examples, just remeber or beloved ippodrom, where our "businessmen" compete with each other in ripping off ordinary people. Isn't it pathetic? I don't think it is caused by the West.
Of course you can find many many dirty spots in western life, but they are only spots, it is not widely spread phenomenon. moreover you know about them because there is transparency and openness. they are not afraid of telling their problems.
In countries like ours you cannot and will not see the same degree of transparency, can you? So it does not mean we don't have the same problems, They do exist and get even worse because we don't discuss them, we don't face them.
I can go on with these, but don't want to. The main thing i want to state is that instead of accusing others we should look into ourselves and see what went wrong.

only then we can hope for better fate and mercy,

regards,

afandi

Lucky
01-08-2001, 02:36 PM
The West is relatively better in any aspects of life than any islamic country on the face of the earth. The west excelled because willingly or unwillingly they carried out isalmic laws in their lives like freeodom of faith and speech. The islamic countries are lagging behind because they left islam long before in the 12-13 th centuries. The situation in usbekistan is the result of Communism, and religious and political extremisms not islam.
Cheers,;)

hi-jacker
01-08-2001, 05:06 PM
This is quite interesting topic for discussion. Afandi is right saying that the problem lies in ourselves, not in some kinda jewish plot against us or muslims in general. Of course western life is much more advanced in many instances than ours. Why? My answer to that question is: even we got independent ten years ago, deep in our minds we still think as slaves. Just look at us ( I mean whole Uzbekistan). Our system has not changed much from that of soyuz times. We must do what people in power tell us to do. We cannot judge what is right and what is wrong by ourselves: some policymaker points that out for us. Or is not it like that? We have four political parties -- and three of them are the simulations of the major one( democratic party, which was based on the former kommunistic party). Look at our Oliy Majlis. Everytime they have syezd or something like that the 100%--can you imagine 100%!-- of deputats will vote for(against) whatever it is proposed for voting. And whenever there is some critique about sth, everybody tends to repeat official stand point, and what is more devastating people believe that BS. (Sorry it was just the burst of my frustration)

I will tell you what majority thinks about our problems. Most people tend to look for solutions for outsiders, i.e. USA, Russia or whatever. But nobody even realizes that the outsiders are not there to help you in the first place, they are after their own benefit. Nothing comes out of nothing. The only one who can help us is our own nation (i.e. residents of Uzbekistan, not only uzbeks). Its people of America who make the Usa of nowadays.

At the end it us who decide to be ruled by whoever rules us.

Cute
01-08-2001, 05:29 PM
Interesting topic. I agree with Lucky about communism effect. But i just want to ask a question. I have a neighbour arab from Oman, before him I just hated arabs. But this guy I think, is really outstanding. He respects other people of different religion. He is 32 years old and clever, I want to say he knows what he is talking about. He clearly distinguishes this vahhabists, extremists or etc. from muslims. But one day I asked him a question about fundamentalists. The answer was "Islam is in roots fundamentalism, we are fundamentalists as well as arabic states". What can you say about this. I know fundamentalism is not extremism, and I think it is not the case that scholars do not distinguish
(Lucky -The problem is some "scholars" (actually antiislamic orientalists) can no more distinguish between extremism and fundamentalism. ),
they just do not want to do so, and may be don't need to. And I think that the word "fundamentalism" and "extremism" are equally used now (may be for some benefits).

Lucky
01-08-2001, 05:39 PM
Hi-jacker, Cute - a very interesting comment, actually that's what i was trying to say for a long time but could not fit them all in one or two sentences. Tanks a lot.
Cheers,;)

Freesyler
01-09-2001, 11:23 AM
Another part from the body:
================================================== =========

PAST AND FUTURE

The competition between democracy and fundamentalism will have a direct bearing on another choice – between outward and inward modernisation. Outward modernaisation means accepting the devices, the amenities, the conveniences provided by Western science and industry while rejecting what are seen as pernicious Western values. All too often, this means also rejecting the science that produced these devices and amenities and the way of life that made that science possible. One might put it this way: outward modernization means buying and firing a gun. Inward modernisation means learning to manufacture and ultimately design one. This is not likely to happen in countries – like some in the region – where science is taught in schools from fifty-year-old textbooks.

Catching up with the modern world means more than borrowing or buying modern technology. It means becoming part of the process by which that technology is created – that is, undergoing the intellectual revolution, the economic, social and eventually political transformation, that precede, accompany and follow technological change.

In this respect, the Middle East still lags far behind other more recent recruits to modernity like Korea, Taiwan and Singapore. It lags much further behind Japan, whose first contact with the West came centuries later than that of the Middle East. The transformation of the “Asian Tigers” is even more dramatic, and the gap between them and the economies of the Middle East is widening every day. In a region where hundreds of universities turn out tens of thousands of engineers every year, it has become normal for governments and corporations requiring hi-tech construction work to bring in contractions from Korea – a country that only recently emerged from a long period of oppressive colonial rule followed by devastating years of war. Unless the countries of the Middle East are able to make the transition to the new age, this gap will grow even wider.


There are three elements which could help transform the Middle East: Turkey, Israel and women - the first previously aloof, the second previously excluded, the third previously suppressed.

Of these the most important is woment. They will, if permitted play a major role in bringing the Middle East into a new era of material development, scientific advancement and socio-political liberation. Of all the people of the Middle East, women have the strongest vseted interest in social and political freedom. They are already among its most valiant and effective defenders; they may yet be its salvation. As in other parts of the world, some women defend and even acclaim the subordination of their sex. Others, never having known anything else, meekly submit to it. But growing numbers, touched by the ideas of freedom and equality and increasingly open to outside influence and example, will rebel against it. Muslim countries cannot hope to catch up, let alone keep the pace with the advanced world, as long as they deprive themselves of the talents and energies of half the population and entrust the nurture of most of the other half to uneducated and downtrodden mothers.
The women' movement will still suffer reverses in the Middle East. But these, like the excesses of Taliban in Afghanistan and the murderous repression of women in some Arab countries, will not succeed indefenitely. Even Iran, where anti-feminism was a major theme in Khomeinist ideology, women are already beginning to play an increasing part in some aspects of public life. The influence of women from among the expatriate Muslim communities in Europe and America will also make an important contribution to the emancipation of their sisters who stayed at home.

...

Freestyler
01-09-2001, 11:28 AM
<Afandi> & <Hi-jacker>, good points, I absolutely agree with you.

There are some parts in the brochure which also support your idea.

Keep it Sober