An Agenda of Disdain: Cultural Imperialism and the

[Lucky]

Read the reality about Afghani women's opinion on opression by Taleban.
take your time and read if you really care about woman.
http://members.nbci.com/CyberMuslima/disdain.htm
http://members.nbci.com/CyberMuslima/notes.htm

[SUN6500]

It would a be total ignorance to believe that article on the very event that Afghani women protested against Taliban regime in Pakistan just two weeks ago. This is just another propaganda verged by Taliban government and as I see you easily fell for it because your very own mental horizont is not far from of Taliban clerics.
Note, that the rest of the world also believed that Soviet Union was a "happy, prosperous" country due to a massive Soviet propaganda. Religion, is just another ideology and it will do its best to protect itself and assure its survival. It is either you're with it or against it. It won't tolerate any other ideas.

[Lucky]

I would love to repeat what you said "It would a be total ignorance to believe that" western media is telling us the truth and want us to be good boys,;). Tell those westerners not to teach us how to be, Uzbekistan has its own way, "An Uzbek way of democracy", we aint' gonna follow the whims of neither Cultural imperialism of the West nor the deadend road of the islamic or any kinda extremism."This is just another propaganda verged by the Western "Intellectuals and as I see you easily fell for it because your very own mental horizont is not far from of the Imperialistic ideas( Big Brothers)","Western Democracy, is just another ideology and it will do its best to protect itself and assure its survival. It is either you're with it or against it. It won't tolerate any other ideas."
Cheers;)

[SUN6500]

Ha-ha, I see you're running out of vocabulary ;) But anyway, in the very nature of democracy plural thoughts are encouraged, it is debated, analyzed and implemented. Therefore, your plagirizing of comments doesn't withstand a critisizm very much because you've advocating halifa structured state based on sha'ria in one thread and now you're jumping to "An Uzbek way of democracy" which does not exist.Besides how can you say that Uzbeks don't need a "Big Brother" (which I perfectly agree) and still advocate for halifat, which will be in the hands of Arabs. You undersigned to succumb for Arabs. And finaly "your" ;) comment of: "It is either you're with it or against it" which you referred to democracy is a total nonsense because as I mentioned above, democracy is based on diversity of opionion and it does treat every opinion equally, while religion does not. Since you've been studying in San Jose State University it is quite time to name things right. Let me bring me an example of something you wrote:

"Ignorance is a state when a person does not
understand the real meaning even if he knows
the knowledge."

I think this has so much thing to do with you...it's a loss for Uzbeks...how sad.

[lucky]

Dear SUN6500, you have very a strong sense of humor or you are just pretending to be the one who has it;)."But anyway, in the very nature of democracy plural thoughts are encouraged, it is debated, analyzed and implemented"- That is absolutely correct, however do not forget, it encourages only democratic thoughts,it does encourage neither dicatatorship nor theocracy:)."because you've advocating halifa structured state based on sha'ria in one thread and now you're jumping to "An Uzbek way of democracy" which does not exist"- Could you paste my exact words where I said I advocated "halifa based structure";)? Either I am runnning out of memory or I am being attacked by some kinda political or religious extremist (both kinda extremism have never been successful, as far as I remeber from my History class, people could exist together only WITH COMPROMISE not extremism which means the ruling and opposition groups should alawys give up something)."Now you're jumping to "An Uzbek way of democracy" which does not exist"- I am not jumping (I am sitting where I was;)), that's what 23 mln uzbekistanis have decided to build not a long time ago. As far as your concern about the existence of "An uzbek way of Democracy" I could say only one thing "it is obvious you are not Umidie and have not been to our dear homeland for a while. The whole world powers acknowledged our WAY. The thing is, we do not give tons of freedom to the individuals, but we think about the groups of people that's why we are always ready to ged rid of some individuals for the benefit of whole community (that's what even the States did when it started the Civil War, or got involved in Vietnam War.Yea, everything was done for the interest of "American people".)"
"Besides how can you say that Uzbeks don't need a "Big Brother" (which I perfectly agree) and still advocate for halifat, which will be in the hands of Arabs. You undersigned to succumb for Arabs."- again where did you get this "insane" ideas? The arab world can't unite among themselves for the last 1000 years how can they take US under their control? ( are you being sarcastic?)."You undersigned to succumb for Arabs."- this is gross, you better apologize in front of all Umides and visitors of this Site for the false accuasations you made towards me;)( I've already forgiven you, 'cause I know insane people are not reasponsible for what they say, 'cause they do not have the sense of "Taklif" (responisbility))."
"It is either you're with it or against it" which you referred to democracy is a total nonsense because as I mentioned above, democracy is based on diversity of opionion and it does treat every opinion equally, while religion does not." - do you really believe in what you said? I would name it BS. The law of Jungle rules everywhere (you can't deny, this is fact). The best, the strongest will survive at the expense of the dying ones. And they, only they, will rule.If let at their mercy, they could let some small old dying out groups to exist for a while."Since you've been studying in San Jose State University it is quite time to name things right"- there was no need for personal attacks, and San Jose State does not deserve your critique.
"I think this has so much thing to do with you...it's a loss for Uzbeks...how sad."- yes , how true it is, I am total loss for the people(Vatan gados) who ran away from uzbekistan at their earliest possibility of course they envy seeing us prospering day by day. If you are not convinced visit www.birlik.net(some fool people hang out over there)and I could name them a total loss and shame for uzbekistanis. I hope you are not one of them (if yes, I really feel sorry for you, you better visit a psychiatrist then).
Cheers:)

[SUN6500]

I think you're one dillusional dude ;) You can't even think straight. First you started out with how women should be dressed (without leaving it up for women themselves), and now you're going with personal attacks.
"...it does encourage neither dicatatorship nor theocracy," very good point. But in democracy you can at least say it without getting smacked, right ? You can question the very essense of democracy in democratic country. But can you do it under Islamic state ?? I don't think so.

"I am not jumping (I am sitting where I was), that's what 23 mln uzbekistanis have decided to build not a long time ago. As far as your concern about the existence"
It is still being built, and please don't dillude yourself as it does exist. You look simply ludicrous.

"and have not been to our dear homeland for a while. The whole world powers acknowledged our WAY." -- As per your claim, yes I have been home almost every year, so please don't pull your thoughts out of thin air. And as far as the whole world acknowldged "our WAY", (cough),eerr, what way ?? ;) Besides don't get nervous, pal, no one is questioning how the state should be run here, and especially not you.

"You undersigned to succumb for Arabs."- this is gross, you better apologize in front of all Umides and visitors of this Site for the false accuasations you made towards me( I've already forgiven you, 'cause I know insane people are not reasponsible for what they say, 'cause they do not have the sense of "Taklif" (responisbility))."
--Apologizing in fron of you ????!!! Who are you ?! You're one of the little trolls advocating to "wrap up" our women in chadors and defending Taliban. I am quite, (be rest assured) but I have doubts about your sanity, pal.

""It is either you're with it or against it" which you referred to democracy is a total nonsense because as I mentioned above, democracy is based on diversity of opionion and it does treat every opinion equally, while religion does not." - do you really believe in what you said? I would name it BS. The law of Jungle rules everywhere (you can't deny, this is fact). The best, the strongest will survive at the expense of the dying ones." -- Sure the law of jungle is paramount, but at least in democracy you do have a voice and you can raise it. And since you haven't understood it so far, well, there is no reason to explain it to you any further (some people are born this way).

"San Jose State does not deserve your critique." Well, read it twice it was addressed to your credentials and not San Jose ;)

"no need for personal attacks" -- Wohoho! Look who is talking... ;)

"'cause they do not have the sense of "Taklif" (responisbility))." -- Oh, p-l-e-a-s-e, save it for yourself, pal.

", how true it is, I am total loss for the people(Vatan gados) who ran away from uzbekistan at their earliest possibility of course they envy seeing us prospering day by day." -- Oouch, bite me, honey ;) Now, the term "vatangado" was widely used during Soviet period of time and it does not apply any more. Well, since you're from democratic state, didn't you know that people can reside wherever they want ?? Isn't that a democratic norm ? Well, I think your perception of democracy is somehow "special", should I say "your way" of viewing democracy, isn't it ? ;)

"...If you are not convinced visit www.birlik.net" --- What this has to do with the conversation. Is this guy for real, heh ;)

Here what I think from the conversation with you:

1.Deep inside you do want the state to be ruled by Islamic law, but you deny it. The very reason I think you want it is because you're for chadoring our women. Well, if it is according to an Islamic law, why not the other aspects of life should be also covered by it? This very conversation was originated on discussing if women should be free to wear what they want, and you came up against it. So, this is only aspect of conversation covered. I really think you're very passionate about what you think, especially on Islamic law emposition on women. Hence, my opinion is that you wouldn't doubt on applying other laws of Islam on everyday life of people. What conversation we have had was just a scratch on the surface what you really feel about.

2.You're afraid of what you really want to say, that's why went on with "variations of democracy" crap, but I understand why, so not to worry ;)

Aside from personal attacks, ;) I think you're one angry dude, calm down or you'll end up with cardiac arrest ;)

This stupid sideshow is over. You may scream as much as you want ;)

[lucky]

SUN6500 chill down bro here what you accused me of "The very reason I think you want it is because you're for chadoring our women." and here what I said in my first reply "Qizlarimizning, umuman fuqarolarimizning qanday libosda yurishlari o'zlarinig ixtiyorida bo'lishi kerak.Biz demokratik jamiyat qurayotgan ekanmizmi, Hijobni hohlaganlar hijobni, miniskirtni istaganlar esa miniskirtni libos sifatida va o'zlariga ma'qul ko'rgan holda qo'llashlari shart. Bizlarga qanday kiyinishni o'rgatadigon Aql tayoqlar keark emas.Ularga indamsa ertaga tushlikka nima eyishimgacha buyurishadi."- I hope you understand uzbek;). The reason I talked about hijab was to show you guys some of the benefits of Hijaab.
"You're afraid of what you really want to say, that's why went on with "variations of democracy" crap, but I understand why, so not to worry"- whom should I be afraid of? As you said ,"But in democracy you can at least say it without getting smacked" or "at least in democracy you do have a voice and you can raise it",that's why I am not afraid of (I am just enjoying the fruits of democracy and not using anonymizer as some other guys;)), cause I can stand up to what I said. Here what you said,"You're one of the little trolls advocating to "wrap up" our women in chadors and defending Taliban", again read my reply that I posted in my first reply in another thread, as far as Taliban they are one of the powers who can kick Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan's butt. It is not secret that IMU is being financed by Russian secret service and the 16th of april events goes back to Uzbekistan's signing out of Mutual Defense 6 months before the explosion. Uzbekistan Government supported and acknowledged Taliban as leaders of that region even in 1996 when president Karimov said, "Biz Toliblarga omad tilaymiz" and the peace treaty was signed on the border, in Termiz city. IMU got enormous help and support not from Talibans but from Ahmadshah Ma'sud. Another thing, we have been bordering with Taliban since 1996 and no problem. That's all Russia's policy (still wants to be a Big Brother). Russia definietly wants the pipeline to cross through Chehcnya, Azerbayjan, and Turkey not through Afghanistan and Pakistan ("Shell. Co." was thinking about investing $1bln investment just in Afghanistan Pipeline project)
,basically the whole war is being fought for Money, economic interests. Uzbekistan does not wanna have second afghanistan, thank you, rather we look at taliban as an economic ally. Our best interests lie in in Indopakistan subcontinent and the Middle East, that's our real economic market.If we can build an Economic Union among those countries and the former Sobiet republics, we can easily get out of the economic crisis and guarantee jobs for millions of unemployed. We have been living in peace with afghanis long before Russia intruded between us with its "gun". As far as Taliban's protection of Ben Laden its their business, one of the European countries (I guess Sweden) also gave a legal refuge to Mr.M.Saleh why none is talking about it? Beisides that Taliban already made it known that they are ready to punish Ben laden if he would be proven guilty of the crimes he is accused of by the US GOV. and do not forget that very Ben Laden used to be an agent of CIA,I do not know why US wants to get rid of its own agent. IT IS ALL POLITICS (A DIRTY GAME, Once the Father of Proleatriat V.I.Lenin said," Politika, Ona prostitutka"). As far as my own political beliefs, I am for what my nation wants and I am ready to give my blood to the least drop to the people who sent me over here to make Jihad (gaining knowledge.)
This board is not a place to scream!!! That's why I suggest all of us (including myself), not to scream over here. I kindly ask you, dear SUN6500 please back up all the false accusations you made towards me (Just paste what I said, please) otherwise ask for forgiveness I am still ready to acknowledge your mistakes and forgive you.
Cheers, :)

[SUN6500]

huh, this man has a lot of nerve... ;)

[muslim]

u know that its sad times when you have to hear (see) another Turk bad mouth Islam and its system... :(

<font color="0000FF">Sorry Sun6500, but Lucky is right. You and other Uzbeks and Iranians, etc., are only fooling yourselves when you say that you don't need Islam and you will find the way yourself. Thats like some guy driving around a street block for hours and refusing to ask for directions, because his enormous ego or his incredible stupidity gets in the way.</font>

HUMBLE yourselves and SUBMIT yourselves to your Maker. Thats all I can pretty much tell you guys. With Allah guiding you, how can you go wrong? Unless you can do better than Allah? MUHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA! :D

<font color="0000FF">I believe I am right when I say that Central Asia and the Middle East and Near East reached its peak of greatness under a system that utilized Islam, no? What brought them all down was straying away from that "straight" and "narrow" path of Islam, no? Isnt thats how Central Asia became a backward, feudal society (like medieval Europe)? When people stopped learning about Islam and applying its values (WHICH INCLUDES LEARNING AND EMPOWERMENT OF THE MASSES)?</font>:)

I am very sorry to say this, but based on the the numerous posts I have read, you guys don't even know anything about your own histories, only Amir Timur this, Soviets this, and Karimov that. As for current events, its easy for newspapers and other media to an impression on you guys. Kinda like two-year-olds watching Barney on TV (Now sing it along with me boys and girls....:"I love you, you love me...."). ;)

<font color="0000FF">You say you want to keep relations with India? With the same government that ordered the destruction of the Babri Masjid (And many other masjids)? The same nation that butchers hundreds of Muslims (many of them Uzbek & Turkmen descent themselves) on a monthly cycle? I was shocked to hear that Uzbeks actually kept ties with India after what is going on over there. Do blood ties means anything to Uzbekistan anymore? Or do they end just because they move away?</font> :(

I remember some guy one this discussion board saying that Uzbekistan and Iranians need to intervene in Afghanistan in order to "protect" their people from Taliban. But not lift a finger to protect their people from Hindu extremist groups (which pretty much numbers 800 million on a good day). *sniff* *sniff*.... I smell hypocrisy here......

<font color="0000FF">At least you can't accuse the Taliban of that.</font>

P.S. As for bin Laden being a CIA agent: he was just supported by CIA because he fought the Reds. He wasnt an agent himself.

<font color="0000FF">P.P.S I thought you guys were supposed to be the cream of the crop of Uzbekistan. What happened? I thought the selection process was based more on merit and less on hand-picking.</font> ;)

[Mahmud Ghaznevi]

Of course, dont take it personally :)... unless you insist upon it, that is... :)

[Lucky]

Fortunately he is not an Umidie, so Gaznavi you do not have to worry on that,
Cheers,;)

[SUN6500]

Yeah, whatever ... we got bunch of starvin' preachers here who can't even bring their house in order but try to teach others.

[muslim]

My own household is quite fine, thank you.

However I consider you guys as part of my family, lets say cousins... and that is why I care enough to type and type and type.... no matter how much you hate it :)

[Javanmard]

Get a grip on yourselves guys!!

I have read all arguments here and am still not moved. The Taliban are a step in the WRONG direction! Only a real pluralist democracy will lead to a strong government.....If anyone, be they communist, Facist or even Islamisist takes control in any country and just stays their, they will take advantage and will do nothing for the country.......

Don't let the beards take control!!!! Democracy, tempered with a little socialism (ie. free medicine and education) is the best way from Iran to Kazakhstan. Let the beards live in Afghanistan if they like it so much....

I like to play guitar, listen to Metal, read comic books and watch movies. Name one of those things I could do in a country with rulers similar to the Taliban???

[muslim]

Lets just see what happens.. I mean... u cant get any worse than u already are any way...

hey javanmard... do u live in the states or Iran?