This amazing [Archive] - Uzbekistan Online Forum - Онлайн Форум Узбекистана

Lucky

01-05-2001, 09:55 PM

The Universe
In the 1920s Edwin Hubble showed that, on the largest scales, all the galaxies were moving away from each other. It is simple to deduce from this that at some time in the past they must have been much closer together than they are now. Cosmology is the study of the origin and development of the Universe and the currently most popular theory is that of the Big Bang.

This theorises that at about 13,000,000,000 years ago all the matter and space that make up the Universe were concentrated into a very small volume. The theory states that the Universe came into being as an extremely small volume full of energy, which gave the Universe a very high temperature. As the Universe expanded so the fundamental atomic particles were formed as a mixture dominated by hydrogen with some helium and almost nothing else.

Some of the greatest current problems in astrophysics arise from consideration of how the galaxies formed, and what is the nature of the mass of the Universe (we can only identify 10 percent of what must be there!).

The study of the early Universe is possible due to the finite speed of light. As we look at galaxies many millions of light years away we see them as they were when the light left them -- many millions of years ago. These remote objects are, of course, faint and hence astronomers always want to use larger telescopes and more efficient detectors so that they can measure further back in time.

Evidence for the Big Bang
Until well into this century astronomers did not know that the Milky Way was a galaxy and that the ‘island universes’ seen through large telescopes were galaxies, systems of many, many stars grouped together like the Milky Way.

The fundamental discovery which demonstrated this was made by Hubble. He showed, from spectra of the galaxies, that there was an increase in the velocity of recession with distance. The deduction from this is that space is expanding and it was soon appreciated that the Milky Way was one of a very great number of galaxies and that it, like the Sun, had no special place in the system of galaxies.

This theory received a boost in 1965 when radiation at 3 degrees K, the microwave background radiation, was discovered coming from all directions in space. This radiation was predicted to be a remnant from the very early time in the age of the Universe, before matter had been formed, when the Universe was still filled with hot radiation. The radiation was isotropic and it corresponded to a temperature that was consistent with red-shifted radiation from the Big Bang.

From the observation of galaxies using optical wavelengths it was not possible to find evolutionary effects and so the hypothesis that the Universe was in a steady state was a plausible one. In 1997 the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) obtained very deep exposures of galaxies at enormous distances from the Milky Way. Objects at this distance were seen as they were when the Universe was only 10% of its current age. The ‘Hubble Deep Field’ images demonstrated a clear difference in the appearance of galaxies in the early Universe from those seen today – definitive evidence for evolutionary change.(http://www.rog.nmm.ac.uk/leaflets/cosmology/cosmology.html)

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/arabic/21_30.gif
Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?(Quran 21:30)

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/arabic/51_47.gif
"And it is We who have built the universe with our power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (Quran 51:47)

dreamer

01-05-2001, 11:58 PM

Lucky,

Can you comment on this please:

[URL="http://info.rambler.ru:8101/db/news/msg.html?mid=1423972"]

JIC, if the link does not work: http://info.rambler.ru:8101/db/news/msg.html?mid=1423972

thx,

Lucky

01-06-2001, 02:34 AM

Does it have anything to do with scientific stuffs in the "Words of The Lord of the Worlds"? What are you trying to say Dreamer? You know already what I think,do not you think so? A man fell down in a ditch and said "Damn it!!! It is because I am a Blackman, I would not fell down if I were a Whiteman" Do you see any relationship?" or look at this, A boy was walkin' down the street then all over sudden a flying bird crapped on his head, the boy said," this is because I ate an oatmeal for breakfast." Come on folk, let's stick to the point! Do not hit me from the back!! I am tryin' to be sincere and you guys, too, try to be sicere, please! So what is your point Dreamer? Are you sayin' islamic rule is brutal and that denies scientific stuff in Quran? Or are you trying to say that we gotta give rest to islam and do our own business which is promoting An american consumerism? Keep in mind if you do not face the truth, the truth will face you and smash you down, the head of the Uzbekistanis said We gonna fight with enlightment and knowledge against ignorance,not with ignorance itself. Critiques and comments are welcomed...
Cheers ;)

dreamer

01-06-2001, 04:39 AM

Lucky,

...(adding to my previous post) if you are less ignorant in shariat than me , I would like to hear your comment on the article.

thx,

Lucky

01-06-2001, 05:43 AM

I do not know a lot on sharia' and am not specialist in that, besides that I got no idea about your level of understanding of islam and islamic rules and laws.
Take it easy,
cheers;)

wonder

01-06-2001, 09:02 AM

thanks, Lucky for such info. it is quite interesting

i want to ask you a question:
what do you think: is our universe infinite?
what does Kur'an say about this?

cheers

Misha

01-06-2001, 12:42 PM

Dear wonder, Universe is expanding.

Lucky

01-06-2001, 01:09 PM

Wonder Because our universe is vast, it does not mean that it does not have an end. Conventionally we take it to be equal to 0 when divide 1 by infinitely big number. Every body knows that the graph of that function never touches 0 but it really makes to say that it will equal to 0 some time. The universe definietly have an end. Because our mind is finite and our brain is not capable of perceiving everything, we can not fully understand the Infinite being (Allah) and the the mystery of His creation. All we do is, stand with Awe wondering about His Power and Majesty.
Cheers, ;)

dreamer

01-06-2001, 01:22 PM

Lucky, I see...

Lucky

01-06-2001, 01:33 PM

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/arabic/10_37.gif
"And this Qur'вn is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allвh (Lord of the heavens and the earth), but it is a confirmation of (the revelation)[] which was before it [i.e. the Taurвt (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws and orders, etc, decreed for mankind) - wherein there is no doubt from the the Lord of the 'Alamоn (mankind, jinns,and all that exists)."
(Quran 10:37)

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/arabic/1_2.gif
"Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds" ( Quran 1:2)
As you see the Worlds and Universes are created. All created beings are subjest to Limit and Death. But This is Not the Case with the Originator,Lord of The Worlds.

Lucky

01-06-2001, 04:32 PM

I just found about ths one,
image (http://www.kavkaz.org/news/2001/01/02/kolaj1.gif)

Наука Химия демонстрирует чудо Аллаха. В ней
отразилась божественная роспись (печать)
нашего Творца. Автором этого открытия стал
директор сахарной фабрики и инженер Института
Химии (Турция) Ваджихи Бурдурлу. Он так
описывает результаты работы, ставшей причиной
многих бессонных ночей:
“В последние годы я стал ломать голову над тем,
чтобы с помощью диаграмм вывести имя
Всевышнего, которое непременно должно иметь
место, как в химии, так и во всем, что
существует во Вселенной. В этой связи первым,
что я сделал, было исследование периодической
системы химических элементов.
В диаграмме по горизонтальной оси я разметил
номера групп элементов от 0 до 8, так как они
размещены в периодической системе. А по
вертикальной оси расположил номера их атомов.
В результате точки пересечения их векторов
выявили четкое изображение имени “Аллаh”, но в
конце слова я обратил внимание, что буква “h”
вышла наоборот. В ту ночь я не сомкнул глаз. На
следующее утро я обнаружил, что допустил
ошибку в порядке размещения элементов и
исправил ее; естественно, буква “h” тут же
приняла правильное расположение”.
Ваджихи Бурдурлу завершил свою речь
следующим: “Самым удивительным в этой
работе было то, что при подворачивании
диаграммы наоборот (т.е. номера групп и номера
атомов сверху вниз) вновь появлялось четко
выраженное имя Всевышнего “Аллаh”.
Мы попросили прокомментировать этот материал
доцента кафедра химии ДГМА А.М.Лолуа. Она
сказала, проверив таблицу: “В этом нет ничего
удивительного для меня. Ведь и сама таблица
была подсказана Д.И.Менделееву Всевышним”.

Журнал «Каусар»
Cheers;)

JUST (wonder)

01-06-2001, 05:17 PM

thanks a lot, Lucky

this explanation is enough 4 me, but i've got an Italian flatmate who wonders more - two days before we had a discussion on this topic and he asked me just the question i ve asked you above. my answer to him was close to yours, that is, the universe is not infinite and that our minds are limited to understand such things as what comes after the borders of universe - he wasn't satisfied with my answer :(

JUST

P.S. dear Misha, i knew that universe was expanding ;)

enlighter

01-06-2001, 05:25 PM

Lucky... good job. :)
This is very interesting and enlightening.
BTW all I can say is that most of us are like an ant walking on the back of an elephant; having no idea where it is or what it is walking on.
Like an ant most of us cannot perceive the realities that are much more bigger in size and in depth than what we, humans, can take.

Urs,

Enlighter.

impressed

01-06-2001, 05:57 PM

yeah, Lucky - it's really amazing

and we have to think more broadly, i mean not only about this temporary world :)

good luck, and God bless you all!

Misha

01-06-2001, 05:59 PM

Sorry JUST if I offended you !!!!

By the way, I just wanna try to explain how it might be that our universe is not infinite. Imagine a ball.(vozdushniy sharik). If you start pump air inside it, you can see that its surface will start expand. You can see that although the surface is not infinite, it doesn't have any boundaries at all. I mean if some two-dimensional starts walking, he will never find its end. If the ball it big enough, then he would never think of it! There is now diifculties to imagine it at all. But just to remind to you, that surface of ball is two-dimensional while the ball(=sphere) itself is an three dimensional object.

Besides it, as you know, our universe is not restricted to three dimensions. You have to take into account time coordinate as well. So, according to modern scientific views, this four dimentional space(i.e. our universe) is reserved, closed into itself. It's like a four dimesional surface of the five-dimensional space.
This is it.
I hope I will be able to explain it more clear later on..

Thanks,
Misha.

Misha

01-06-2001, 06:00 PM

Sorry JUST if I offended you !!!!

By the way, I just wanna try to explain how it might be that our universe is not infinite. Imagine a ball.(vozdushniy sharik). If you start pump air inside it, you can see that its surface will start expand. You can see that although the surface is not infinite, it doesn't have any boundaries at all. I mean if some two-dimensional man starts walking, he will never find its end. If the ball it big enough, then he would never think of it! There is now diifculties to imagine it at all. But just to remind to you, that surface of ball is two-dimensional while the ball(=sphere) itself is an three dimensional object.

Besides it, as you know, our universe is not restricted to three dimensions. You have to take into account time coordinate as well. So, according to modern scientific views, this four dimentional space(i.e. our universe) is reserved, closed into itself. It's like a four dimesional surface of the five-dimensional space.
This is it.
I hope I will be able to explain it more clear later on..

Thanks,
Misha.

Misha

01-06-2001, 06:10 PM

There were some mistakes in my previous message.( I wrote "now" instead of "no" for example). I hope I have not done any mistake this time. :)

By the way, I just wanna try to explain how it might be that our universe is not infinite. Imagine a ball.(vozdushniy sharik). If you start pump air into it, you'll see that the ball's surface will start expanding. You can also see that although the surface is not infinite, it doesn't have any boundaries at all. I mean if some two-dimensional man starts walking, he will never find its end. If the ball it big enough, then he would never think of it! There is no difficulties to imagine it at all! But just to remind to you, that surface of ball is two-dimensional while the ball(=sphere) itself is an three dimensional object.

Besides it, as you know, our universe is not restricted to three dimensions. You have to take into account time coordinate as well. So, according to modern scientific views, this four dimentional space(i.e. our universe) is reserved, closed into itself. It's like a four dimesional surface of a five-dimensional ball.
This is it.
I hope I will be able to explain it more clearly later on..

Thanks,
Misha.

JUST

01-06-2001, 07:03 PM

things go so that my discussion with my dear italian flatmate (see above) is gonna be revealed :)

we talked about dimensions with him, and i said to him that we live in three dimensions, and the fourth is Time, and that we obey the rules set, and we can't see what happens in further dimensions (fifth, sixth, and so on).

and i said to him that TIME is also a creature, that is created by God, as well as all the system, including all other dimensions - so that the question - what was before God?, or where is God? cannot be asked because God doesn't obey to the dimensions he created (space, time, etc.) anyway at the end he kept on asking what comes after the universe if it has limits...

by the way, he says he doesn't feel himself to be a good christian...

P.S. i haven't used the rule of reported speech here (past time), it might seem odd here

Lucky

01-06-2001, 07:41 PM

God is absolutely other than His creation. The Creator cannot by any means be the same kind of being as that which He created. Although this is self evident to sense and reason, some people still ask why we cannot directly see God.

But direct vision is very limited and could never be an appropriate way of seeking the Unlimited. Let us explain:

There are innumerable bacteria in the human body, indeed innumerable bacteria in so small a space as a human tooth. These creatures are quite unaware of the tooth in which they live. To become aware of it, they would have to somehow situate themselves out of the tooth, and then, through the use of artificial means (telescopes and microscopes and the like) they might, conceivably, obtain some very approximate notion of the dimensions of the tooth, and then, perhaps, of the larger body to which the tooth is attached. Only through such an effort, which is scarcely imaginable, could the bacteria become aware of the human body which makes up the large ground or sustaining environment of their life. And this scarcely imaginable awareness is itself an immeasurable distance away from anything remotely resembling what we would call understanding.

Though on a very different scale, the sense-awareness of human beings is similarly limited. It may indeed be that, with the assistance of telescopes and other instruments, we can 'see' across distances of millions of light years. But all that we 'see' in this way is insignificant compared to the dimensions of the whole of which it is a minute fragment. In fact, allowing for the difference in scale, what human beings can 'see' is as insignificant as the bacteria's awareness of the living tissue within which they exist and perish, when compared to the dimensions of the body of which that tissue is a minute fragment.

Further, if we consider the matter closely, we soon realize that our 'seeing' (or hearing or any other mode of perception) is conditional upon our understanding. We need to have some general ideas about what we 'see' in order to distinguish it and recognize it. If we did not have some idea, however vague at first, of what, for example, a tree is, we should be literally unable to 'make sense' of that object before our eyes which we know as a tree. If our 'seeing' is as limited as it is, and if-even for the objects within creation, and within the reach of our 'seeing' or our 'seeing' instruments-we need some general understanding so that we can 'make sense' of what we 'see', how improper a demand it is, how absurd a demand, to ask why we cannot directly 'see' or directly 'know the Creator of the whole.

We are created beings, that is, finite, limited in our possibilities and our capacities. Only the Creator, God, is Infinite. By His Mercy, the Creation is available to us as the ground or environment within which we exist and perish, strive for understanding and virtue, and seek our salvation. The Messenger Muhammad said: Compared with the Seat of Honor, the whole universe is as little as a ring thrown upon a desert. Similarly, compared with the Throne, the Seat of Honor is as little as a ring thrown upon the desert. From that comparison we gain some understanding of how far the Infinitude of the exceeds our power of apprehending it. How can we even begin to conceive of the reality of the Seat of Honor and the Throne from which the All Mighty in His Infinite Majesty sends out His Will and Command and sustains His Creation, let alone begin to conceive of God Himself?

Lucky

01-06-2001, 07:58 PM

http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/arabic/6_59.gif

"With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, n or anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is inscribed in a record clear.(Quran 6:59)

Freesyler

01-07-2001, 09:43 AM

Honestly, guys, I can only laugh at you, but I guess you wouldn't care.

Kakoy-to tam uchyoniy reshil: "Chto-to vsyo taki doljno ved' otrajat' imya allaha v ximii", i on nachal userdno koldovat'. Kak je sdelat' tak, chtobi imya Allaha vsyo taki virisovivalos' v etoy paganoy tablice Mendeleyeva. I nado je, o chudo, on nashyol kak...
Vstayot vopros, a chto yesli imya Allaha bilo ne na arabskom, a skajem na Yaponskom? Ya uveren on vsyo ravno bi nashyol kak sgruppirovat' etu tablicu Mendeleyeva i vsyo ravno bi nashyol imya Allaha v ney.

Naschyot izmereniy i o tom chto cheloveku poka yesho ne vsyo dano poznat' - ya polnostyu soglasen, i o tom chto sushnost' i polnoye ponyatiye Boga ne mojet prosto ulojit'sya v primitivnom (v absolutnom smisle) mozgu cheloveka ya toje soglasen.

No verit' da yesho k tomu je bit' "impressed by" skazki o tom chto imya Allaha okazivayetsya napisano na lune, ili na to chto kto-to uvidel yego v tablice Mendeleyeva ili na kojure kakogo-to ploda...?
Hmm, ya doljen budu bit' chetiryoh-letnim rebyonkom veryashim v skazki i v mifi i veryashim v Ded Moroza.

Uchyoniye dokazali, chto v mozgu cheloveka yest' mestechko, kotoroye otvechayet za religioznost' i suyevernost' (tak je kak skajem spec-mestichko otvechayushee za to, chto devushki ot prirodi (ili ot Boga - kak hotite) bivayut boleye boltliviye chem parni).
Tak vot, u menya yest' podozreniye chto eto samoye mestechko v vashem mozgu gipertrofirovano

Take a grip and start to think more rationally.

Misha

01-07-2001, 10:23 AM

Hey, Freestyler!

Vozmi tablitsu Mendeleyeva i prover eto vse sam. Eto je ochen legko proverit......

Freestyler

01-07-2001, 11:44 AM

S takim je uspehom kakoy nibud' drugoy uchyoniy-ateist mojet nayti chto-nibud' na podobe "Boga Net!" i daje vplot' do vosklicatel'nogo znaka.

Konechno on toje doljen budet bit' takim je idiotom i takje userdno pokolduyet nad etoy samoy tablicey.

I kakoy vivod ti sdelal bi potom, kosolapiy?

{Interesno, a Mendeleyev dogadivalsya chto eto tablica yemu bila poslana Bogom? Dumayu net, ved' on bil christianinom, da i arabskogo ne znal ya uveren, da i voobshe s chego bi eto on stal iskat' imya boga v svoyey tablice, na koy chyort yemu eto nujno?}

Vsyo eto - chepuha i gluposti. I vot takimi glupostyami vi hotite vnushit' ostal'nim, chto bog yest'?
Tak vot, moy vam sovet - ispol'zuyte boleye racional'niye dovodi, potom mojet vas nachnut prinimat' vseryoz.

Vobshem vsemi etimi skazkami vi yesho raz podtverjdayete nenauchnost' religii, yeyo osnovannost' na mifah i yakobi neob'yasnimih chudah.

Kogda-to ludi ne znali pochemu solnce vstayot i pochemu nochyu luna svetit.
Konechno ostayotsya yedinstennoye v to vremya razumnoye resheniye - eto vsyo delo ruk Boga. Potom okazalos' chto nichego udivitel'nogo zdes' net, zemlya okazivayetsya kruglaya, u neyo yest' odin sputnik, i chto ona krutitsya vokrug etogo samogo solnca.
A v svoyo vremya lyudey podozrevavshih eto obzivali yeretikami-bezbojnikami...
Eee, vobshem ya tut dumayu zrya teryayu vremya

Respect

Lucky

01-07-2001, 11:46 AM

Freestyler- All right, what you said make sense on the turkish guy's invention. Could you make comment on the other posts, please?
Cheers, ;)

Misha+Kosolapiy.

01-07-2001, 12:30 PM

Freestyler, mojet tot "uchenniy"-ateist naychti "chto-nibud na podobe "Boga Net!""-eto sovsem drugoy vopros. Poka chto on voobsh'e nichego podobnogo ne nasheol ili yesli nasheol, to pojelal ostatsya neizvestnim. V etom to i delo. Nikogo tuta ne hotyat vnushit. Prosto nujno rukovodstvovatsya zdraviv smislom i vse. Yesli ateism treshit po vsem shvam i ne viderjivivayet nikakoy kritiki, to ne stoit yego tak zash'ish'at vot i vse.
Udachi tebe, vlyubom sluchaye, Freestyler. :)

Freestyler

01-07-2001, 12:46 PM

Misha - I am still laughing, you know

"Atheism treshit po vsem shvam" imish...:)
Prodoljay zablujdat'sya if it makes you feel happy.

I ti hochesh skazat' chto ti rukovodstvuyeshsya zdravim smislom?

Yesli bi ateizm bil bi takim gnilim, kakim ti yego sebe predstavlyayesh, on bi ne poluchil voobshe takogo shirokogo rasprostraneniya i voobshe on bi ne rodilsya.

A tot fakt, chto tot uchyoniy-ateist nichego ne nashyol, govorit o tom chto on ne takoy idiot chtobi voobshe brat'sya za takoye tupoye delo, kak nahojdeniye imya boga vezde i vsyudu, vnushaya sebe chto bog yest' vot on, posmotrite, i vot tut on toje yest' tol'ko nujno smotret' po neobichnomu (to bish pokoldovat'), nu posmotrite je - eto ved' ne trudno, i von tam vot on toje yest'...

Yesli chelovek istinno verit v boga, yemu ne nujni takiye gluposti.

I guess I'm still waisting my time but I kind of like it.:)

Bivayte

Lucky

01-07-2001, 03:09 PM

Freestyler - I found you really clever and I think I better give up the argument and leave you with the arguments in Quran. I wanna see how you can deny the facts in Quran. Then I'll laugh at you... and repeat your own words but with a slight difference "that he is not such an idiot to deny the Quran and give up such a great job seeking the Truth (I am talkin' about that turkish guy, 'cause I do not believe it was just a coincidence as materialists say the whole universe came to the existence just by a mere chance. The reason is this belief is baseless and a big BS. Indeed your so called atheist scholars are acknowledging Quran is the word of Allah"
Cheers ;)

Look forward

01-08-2001, 12:34 PM

Hello, everyone, this is absolutely amazing.
Freestyler much of my message will concern you, please will you read carefully and think more carefully at all imagining that you don't know about both religion and atheism.
First of all table of the elements is not the thing you mentioned, if you know a little chemistry you will see that it is amazing at all.
And all the chemists and physisists could never at all explain the every nucleus and the electron(s) around it. So to be honest they introduced quantum mechanics to explain experimental data, but have never explain at all, I quote again.
I will explain you the atom of the element, but i don't know much about it only from college: positively charged protons are all held together in a such small distance and if you measure coulombic repulsion force between only two of them by putting the required units in to the equation: where r is the distance between two protons, can you imagine the distance which is almost 0 than the repulsion force must be infinitely big. And what force do you think hold them together (neutrons don’t have charges as everyone knows). And secondly why if the force is so big then electrons don’t fall in to the nucleus where the attraction force is calculated by the same formula above.
And in the table none of the elements invented they were just found, that is they have already existed.

I will try to explain you another thing: if there is a book this means that there must be a writer of the book. And proving anything in the book means proving the existance of the Author and that He is not telling you the lie.
We all know lots of plants die in the winter and begins it is life again after cold winter, and the life comes, if you have ever noticed, after the earth is watered by some means, (snow, rain). Scientists prove that that is because of the seeds of the plants which carry all the genetic information.
Allah (SWT) promises in his book that He will collect us all in the day of judgement and says that we will be given life again like plants in this world. Have you ever heard that the scientists of GB investigated that one and only one thing remains after the dead of everyone, and this is a like a seed of plant but with different properties, none of the conditions can break it down. And we will be re-created in the Day of judgement, this the truth. And as we proved one the truth in the Book we proved the Author(SWT) of the book, simple logic.
And the other messages of other guys prove the other truths in the Book.
I would like to conclude my message by asking you a few questions and a story:
Are sure that Allah’s anger will not come to you?
Are sure that you don’t get mad in the future like many brains get today?
Are sure that you will get up healthy tomorrow morning?
Do you now when and where you will die?

In the Prophet Solomon’s (a.s) time, one man was shopping in the bazaar and realized that one man was staring at him very strangely. He came to the Solomon (a.s) and complained about that man. He said that he suspected him to be Azrail (farishta who takes life) and wanted Solomon (a.s) to send him to the India where that man could not get him. He (a.s) sent him to the india by ordering to the wind and called for the man in suspection. He (a.s) asked about his strange staring at that man. He answered that he had to take his soul in the India and he was surprised seeing him here.
I think you will think more carefully and take care.
Thanks

still impressed

01-08-2001, 02:39 PM

ok, Freestyler

"Yesli chelovek istinno verit v boga, yemu ne nujni takiye gluposti" - ti prav esli chelovek verit v Boga, ne nujno delat' issledovaniya v oblasti nauki shtobi nayti imya Allaha vezde i povsyudu. no esli etot turok zahotel, i esli u nego est vremya pochemu bi i net? eto ne takoe uj tupoye delo voobsheto, (ti ispolzoval slovo tupoye mnogo raz, don't get so emotional - stay cool :) ),

i eshyo tablitsa Mendeleeva - eto velikoe otkritie chelovechestva, i Mendeleevu udalos taki yeyo tak lovko i umno sostavit tolko posle togo kak emu eto prisnilos vo sne "to bish" (ur quote :) ), poslana Bogom, hotya on i bil hristianinom, it doesn't matter at all. on mog bi i ne znat' shto tam slovo Allah na Arabskom est.

"pokolduy" nad tablitsey (ili nad chem hochesh) - poprobuy nayti tam svoy nick "Freestyler" - na lyubom shrifte - ya ruchayus shto ti ne naydyosh nichego podobnogo (veroyatnost - 0.000000...1%) :)tak zhe esli ateist zahochet (koneshno zhe ne zahochet, no vsyo taki esli dazhe zahochet) zanyatsya etim to on ne naydyot slova "Boga net" (vosklitsatelniy znak - optional)

i yeshyo nashyot solnza i sputnikov, kotoriye ti upomyanul kak primer, eto v Biblii , kotoraya bila moddernizirovana i izmenena na vse ladi smertnimi, napisano shto zemlya ploskaya - reason for scholars (Galileo, Cpernik, etc.) being prosecuted.
v Kurane - kotoriy ostalsya i ostanetsya neizmenyonnim, napisano shto zemlya pohozha na yayzo strausa, "to bish" kruglaya i chut priplyushena. islam vsegda za nauku i znaniya, te religiozniye liza kotoriye presledovali uchyonnih za otkritiya, otnosyatsya k nevezhstvennim musulmanam, i ne predstavlyayut pure Islam.

cheers,

rgrds

take care ;)

P.S. Freestyler, ya ne chuvstvuyu k tebe ni kakoy lichnoy nepriyazni, i postaralsya otvetit na tvoi dovodi bez vsyakih emotsiy

enlighter

01-08-2001, 02:57 PM

Freestyler, what do you mean by "I can only laugh at you" and "I am still laughing"?
I have read all of these and did not find anything to laugh. K tomu je mne kajetsa chto tvoi dovody i argumenti ochen smeshny i neobdumanny. Ty govorish chto kakoyto uchyoniy-ateist mojet nayti chto-nibud' na podobe "Boga Net!" i daje vplot' do vosklicatel'nogo znaka. I edinstvennoye chto ego uderjivayet to chto on takoy umniy, chto on duryu ne mayetsa. Stranno no s kakoy eto pory ateisty stali tak oboryanatsa? Ateisty vsegda sopostavlyali nauku protiv religiyi. I vrodeby nauchno dokazyvali chto Boga ne sushestvuyet. I vot kogda nauka nachala dokazivat te znaki kotoriyi predskazany v Knige bolshe chem tysyacheletiye nazad, ateisty vdrug "poumneli" ne takli? Vrode mol my ne idioty i duryu ne maemsa! Smeshno!

I potom ateism ne tak uj rasprotranen ka ty dumayesh. Sovetskaya ideologiya osnovivalos na ateisme, vot pochemu vo mnogih respublikah byvshego soyuza kak i v UZb est ateisty. Daje v Amerike, v rodine materialistov, ochen mnogo ludyey praktikuyushih religiyi (ne obyazatelno Islam). Daje te kto sebya nazyvaet ateistom, ne veryashim v Boga, verit vo chtoto sverhestestvennoye (t.e. superstituous belief). Mnogiyi veryat v takiye duratskiye veshi kak cherniy kot, amulety, predskazivaniye i t.d.

Tsitiuryu: "Kogda-to ludi ne znali pochemu solnce vstayot i pochemu nochyu luna svetit. Konechno ostayotsya yedinstennoye v to vremya razumnoye resheniye - eto vsyo delo ruk Boga. Potom okazalos' chto nichego udivitel'nogo zdes' net, zemlya okazivayetsya kruglaya, u neyo yest' odin sputnik, i chto ona krutitsya vokrug etogo samogo solnca. A v svoyo vremya lyudey podozrevavshih eto obzivali yeretikami-bezbojnikami..." Stranno no eto pokazivayet kak odnoznachno u poverhstvenno ty rassujdayesh. Vo pervih religiya ne jivoye sushestvo, a stil jizni. V to vremya religiozniyi ludyi zanimali doljnostniyi posti ili je imeli nepodsredsvenniy kontrol nad gosudarstvom. I oni izpolzovali religiyu v tselyah kontrolirovat prostoludinov, imet polniy kontrol nad gosudarstvom. I vsyakoye nauchnoye obyasneniye protivorechashiy tomu chto govorili oni sami prinimalos kak ugroza ihnemu gospodstvu. Vot pochemu oni tak ryano otstaivali chto zemlya eto tsentr vselennoy i chto solntse krujitsa vokrug zemli. Oni ispolzovali religiyu dlya svoyey oborony i krutili eye i tak i syak, t.k. prostoludini ne imeli bolshoye znaniye o religii i prinimali vse chto govoryat takiye "znatniyi" ludyi za chistuyu monetu. Vot pochemu v Islame ukazano "beshikdan qabrgacha ilm izla". Bylo by ochen primitivno dumat chto vinovata religiya za to chto delali ego nekotoriyi posledovateli. S takim je uspehom ty mojesh obvinyat narod za to chto SSSR v svoye vremya istrebil milliony ludyey, ne tolko religioznih, no i mujey nauki, literatury i t.d.

No offense intended. Prosto nado podumat pered tem kak oskorblyat religiyu ni za chto ni pro chto. Pered tem kak ispolzovat slova "idioty", "turoy" i t.d. i t.p. nado horoshenko podumat. Ved ty ne tolko ochernyaesh religiyu no i vseh kto eye praktikuyet.

O'zbechada yahshigina maqol bor:" avval o'zinga boq keyin nog'ora qoq." Eto otnositsya ne tolko na cheloveka no i na vse drugoye.

Any arguments are welcome as long as they are just.

:)

Kosolapiy

01-08-2001, 04:15 PM

Ksati, na scheot "pochemu luna svetit....". Seychas vsem izvestno, chto luna svetit ne potomu chto virabativayet svet, a potomu chto lish otrajayet solnechniye luchi.(eto solntse, gde svet voznikayet). Sovetuyu prochitat Suru Nuh iz Qur'ana(29 Chapter, 71 Sura). Tochneye 16iy ayat ottuda.[click to get Arabic (http://ISLAM.ORG/mosque/arabicscript/60_79/71_15-22.htm) & Engilsh (http://ISLAM.ORG/mosque/quran/71.htm#15) texts]. Prcheom, sovetuyu obratit vnimaniye na to, chto luna bila nazvana svetom ("Nur"),oznachayushim chto-to svetyash'eye, no ne obyazatelno proizvodyash'eye svet, togda kogda dlya solntsa bilo ispolzovanno slovo "Siroj", chto v arabskom oznachayet imenno istochnik sveta!:)

Udachi vsem!:)
Freestyler, tebe ya osobenno jelayu udachi, (I guess you've got lots of exams, so good luck with them as well :) ) !!!!

Lucky

01-08-2001, 06:43 PM

Freestyler- be a little bit rational. Do not speak religion as a whole write particularly about islam otherwise I am sick of your generalization of other religions with islaam
. Give us your scinence based arguments which deny the facts in Quran. Not opinions but the facts concern us in that kinda situation, otherwise you sound more like a christian or smth else than an atheist (cause atheist hail themselves by being materialistic and relying only on the facts) As mentioned earlier, all I expect from you is just crystal pure facts.
I really admire and respect your replies, wishing you excellence in your studies,
Cheers;)

Unnown

01-09-2001, 05:53 AM

Support for "Lucky".

THE QURAN ON OCEANS AND SEAS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BARRIER BETWEEN THE OCEANS
DARKNESS IN THE DEEP SEAS
WAVES ABOVE WAVES

BARRIER BETWEEN THE OCEANS
Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity and density.” (1)

Here we see the divider between theMediterranean and the Atlantic ocean. In the middle of this photo we see a colored triangle, this is the base of the rock of Gibraltar. We can observe a colored partition between the two bodies of water, although the naked human eye cannot perceive it in nature. This has become possible by means of satellite photography and remote-sensing techniques. These are partitions that can only be seen and perceived by scientific research and modern technology.Allah has informed us in the Qur’aan that:
He has let free the two seas meeting together: Between them is a barrier which they do not transgress. (Qur’aan 55:19-20).

Traditionally, there have been two major interpretations of this verse. The Qur’aan goes on to state that there is barrier between them, means that this barrier will simply prevent the seas from encroaching upon each other or flooding over each other.
Proponents of the second opinion ask how can there be a barrier between the seas so that they do not encroach upon each other, while the verse indicates that the seas meet together? They concluded that the seas do not meet and sought another meaning for the term "maraja". But now modern science provides us with enough information to settle this issue. The seas do meet together, as we have seen, for example, in the picture of the Mediterranean and Atlantic Ocean. Even though there is a slanted water barrier between them, we now know that through this barrier the water from each sea passes to the other. But when we the water from one sea enters the other sea, it looses its distinctive characteristics and becomes homogenized with the other water. In a way, this barrier serves as a transitional homogenizing area for the two waters. This is an excellent example of Islamic modern scientific research. Modern techniques can thus be used to prove the inimitability of the Qur’aan.

Modern Science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a ”pycnocline zone with a marked density.
(2) discontinuity seperating the two layers.” This partition (zone of seperation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water (3)

“He is the one who has let free the two bodies of flowing water, one palatable and sweet, and the other salty and bitter. And He has made between them a barrier and a FORBIDDING PARTITION.” QURAN (25:53)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DARKNESS IN A DEEP SEA

“ Or is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darkness, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it...” QURAN (24:40)

The darkness in deep seas and oceans is found around a depth of 200 metres and below. At this depth, there is almost no light. Below a dept of 1000 metres there is no light at all. (4)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WAVES ABOVE WAVES

“ Or is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darkness, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it...” QURAN (24:40)

Scientists have only recently discovered that there are internal waves which “occur on density interfaces between layers of different densities. (5)

The internal waves cover the deep waters of seas and oceans because the deep waters have a higher density than the waters above them. Internal waves act like surface waves. They can also break just like surface waves. Internal waves cannot be seen by the human eye, but they can be detected by studying temperature or salinity changes at a given location. (6)

(1) Principles of Oceanography, Davis, Page:92-93
(2) Oceanography, Gross, Page:242
(3) Oceanography, Gross, Page:244
(4) Oceans, Elder and Pernetta, Page:92-93
(5) Oceanography, Gross, Page:205
(6) Oceanography, Gross, Page:205

Freestyler

01-09-2001, 10:40 AM

Nu, skaju ya vam, vi dayote!

First of all:
Ok, guys, honestly, I haven't read you dissertations completely.
Vas mnogo, menya - malo :), otvechat' po otdel'nosti - net vremeni i sil.
Just want to say: Please don't try to convince me in something in which I will never be convinced.

Vashi usiliya - Sizifov trud (nadeyus' znayete eto virajeniye)

Voot, ya takje znayu chto sporit' s vami - vsyo ravno chto gorohom ob stenku.

I voobshe, ya dopustil oshibku vmeshavshis' v vashi dela.
Mne hochetsya dumat' o sebe kak ob istinno demokratichnom cheloveke, a vmeshavshis v vashu filosofiyu, ya narushil odin iz osnovnih zakonov demokratii - princip svobodi sovesti (nadeyus' vi slihali o takom).

Vpred' obeshayu ne vmeshivat'sya v dela religii, pri tryoh usloviyah:

i)poka religiya ne meshayet progressu (i.e., ne stavit sebya vishe ekonomiki i nauki i sovremennoy morali voobshe)

ii) poka religiya ne budet vmeshivat'sya v prava i svobodi drugih, "inokomislyashih", grajdan

iii)Poka religiya ne obernyotsya politicheskim orujiyem dlya bor'bi s drugimi religiyami, naciyami. Inimi slovami poka religiya ne stanet politikoy

Keep it sober, hotya net, luchshe Keep the Mutual Respect.

Na posashok - istoriya pro "istinu" ("the truth", kotoruyu vi tak chasto lubite upotreblyat' dumaya, chto tol'ko vi znayete yeyo):

Yest' takaya istoriya:
Shli kak-to Mr. Ch, Mr. Mu, i Mr. At po doroge i uvideli blestyashuyu monetu joltogo cveta.
Mr. Ch podnyal monetu, pokrutil v ruke i skazal: "Moneta - mednaya"
Mr. Mu toje povertel monetu v ruke i skazal: "Nee, dorogoy, moneta - zolotaya"
Nu Mr. At, toje chelovek lubopitniy, polyapal monetu i skazal: "Moneta ne mednaya i ne bronzovaya, no ya ne znayu kakaya"

A na samom dele moneta bila platinovaya.

Tak vot, nikto ne mojet skazat' chto kakoy libo iz etih Misterov znayet istinu.
Odnako ochevidno, chto Mr. At hotya i ne znayet istinu, vsyo je blije k ney chem Mr. Mu. ili Mr. Ch.

Sincerely,

Me, the F-word,
(i.e., the Freestyler)

JUST

01-09-2001, 04:56 PM

JUST, glyadya na zhalkiy otvet Freestylera:

mdeee....

JUST

no offence intended

Freestyler

01-10-2001, 08:35 AM

Exceptionally to <JUST>:
Whatever you say, man...

Yet, I'm still laughing...

Keep it Sober

P.S. Offence intended
(if you've got anything to say, write me on freestylerfalonchayev@hotmail.com)

JUST

01-10-2001, 09:20 AM

exceptionally to <Freestyler>, but still open to public

"ok, guys, honestly, I haven't read you dissertations completely.

Vas mnogo, menya - malo , otvechat' po otdel'nosti - net vremeni i sil."

perepisivat' broshyuri na DB u tebya est' sili, a na to shtobi prochitat dissertatzii, napravlenniye tebe, ignotrirovat' dovodi otrizayushiye tvoi vzglyadi nehorosho, oni ved' pryamo i dovolno taki obosnovanno sveli na net tvoi predidushiye posti., a ti otvilivaesh ot pryamogo otveta,

"Just want to say: Please don't try to convince me in something in which I will
never be convinced.

Vashi usiliya - Sizifov trud (nadeyus' znayete eto virajeniye)"

dogmatik shtoli?

"Voot, ya takje znayu chto sporit' s vami - vsyo ravno chto gorohom ob stenku."

izvini daragoy, otkuda ti znaesh shto eto vsyo ravno shto ob stenku?, mozhet est' i takiye kotoriye izmenyat svoyo mneniye esli ti dokazhesh svoyu pravotu, ne vse ved' dogmatiki

precise and short conclusion of my attitude to ur answer till this point mdeee....,

"I voobshe, ya dopustil oshibku vmeshavshis' v vashi dela.
Mne hochetsya dumat' o sebe kak ob istinno demokratichnom cheloveke, a
vmeshavshis v vashu filosofiyu, ya narushil odin iz osnovnih zakonov demokratii
- princip svobodi sovesti (nadeyus' vi slihali o takom).

Vpred' obeshayu ne vmeshivat'sya v dela religii, pri tryoh usloviyah:

i)poka religiya ne meshayet progressu (i.e., ne stavit sebya vishe ekonomiki i
nauki i sovremennoy morali voobshe)

ii) poka religiya ne budet vmeshivat'sya v prava i svobodi drugih,
"inokomislyashih", grajdan

iii)Poka religiya ne obernyotsya politicheskim orujiyem dlya bor'bi s drugimi
religiyami, naciyami. Inimi slovami poka religiya ne stanet politikoy

Keep it sober, hotya net, luchshe Keep the Mutual Respect.

Na posashok - istoriya pro "istinu" ("the truth", kotoruyu vi tak chasto lubite
upotreblyat' dumaya, chto tol'ko vi znayete yeyo):

Yest' takaya istoriya:
Shli kak-to Mr. Ch, Mr. Mu, i Mr. At po doroge i uvideli blestyashuyu monetu
joltogo cveta.
Mr. Ch podnyal monetu, pokrutil v ruke i skazal: "Moneta - mednaya"
Mr. Mu toje povertel monetu v ruke i skazal: "Nee, dorogoy, moneta - zolotaya"
Nu Mr. At, toje chelovek lubopitniy, polyapal monetu i skazal: "Moneta ne
mednaya i ne bronzovaya, no ya ne znayu kakaya"

A na samom dele moneta bila platinovaya.

Tak vot, nikto ne mojet skazat' chto kakoy libo iz etih Misterov znayet istinu.
Odnako ochevidno, chto Mr. At hotya i ne znayet istinu, vsyo je blije k ney
chem Mr. Mu. ili Mr. Ch."

'otvechayte po sushestvu tovarish, po sushestvu!' (reference "Mimino")

tvoi vzglyadi zdes' sovpadayut s moimi, koe gde rashodyatsya, no eto uje drugaya istoriya i ne otnositsya k posledney tvoyey pros'be

nashyot tvoego email, spasibo. moy u_marat@hotmail.com write anytime

JUST

P.S. da i naposledok hochu zametit' eshyo odnu vesh':

- princip svobodi sovesti (nadeyus' vi slihali o takom).

Vashi usiliya - Sizifov trud (nadeyus' znayete eto virajeniye)"

shto za visokomerniy ton?, neuvazheniye k drugim. esli ti dumaesh shto ti ochen umniy, ne dumay shto tolko ti odin umniy...

Freestyler

01-10-2001, 09:43 AM

Yesli ti sidish u kompa, nadeyus ti tut-je prochtyosh'

"(nadeyus' vi slihali o takom).

(nadeyus' znayete eto virajeniye)"

Eti slova bili adresovani ne ruskoyazichnim rebyatam, i yesli ti delayesh' ne meneye cinichniye vivodi tipa:
"shto za visokomerniy ton?, neuvazheniye k drugim. esli ti dumaesh shto ti ochen umniy, ne dumay shto tolko ti odin umniy...",
to ya tebya skaju - <JUST> you are being unjust!

Yesli ti hochesh' sporit', ya gotov s toboy po-sporit', no tol'ko odin na odin i civilizovanno. Otvechat' na vashi dovodi ya schitayu pustoy tratoy vremeni, potomu chto ya etim zanimal'sya uje let 7 navernoye, kogda mne nachali vperviye vdalblivat' v golovi teoriyu i filosofiyu religii v tureckom liceye (turki delali eto ochen' hitro). U menya i seychas polno druzey islamistov, s kotorimi ya chasto sporyu. I vsyakiy raz kogda mi nachinayem etot spor, vsyo zakanchivayetsya nichem.

Vobshem tak. Ya vchera nemnojko podumal i reshil, chto sporit' s vami - eto ne znachit narushat' princip svobodi sovesti. Vsyo ravno ya ne smogu zastavit' vas dumat' po-moyemu, poka vi sami do etogo ne dodumayetes'. I potom, sporya s vami, ya prosto otstaivayu svoi tochku zreniya, pri etom ne zapreshayu vam dumat' i deystvovat' kak vi hotite (kak naprimer postupayut avtoritarniye stroi). Ya dumayu mi mojem sporit' v predelah razumnih demokraticheskih usloviy.

Poetomu hotite sporit (ili diskutirovat' - nazivayte kak hotite), davayte! Vot tol'ko ekzameni sdam, to bish v Fervrale mesyace - ya k vashim uslugam.

A to chto mne ne len' pechatat' knigu, tak eto potomu chto ya schitayu eto delo namnogo polezney.

(Sorry for makin it long)

Keep it Sober

Freestyler

01-10-2001, 10:08 AM

Opyat' ya:

Vzglyanite na etu statyu:

http://www.uzreport.com/cgi-bin/news?id=gen&act=read&rmsg=0101390&pg=

U menya bil shans kak to prisutstvovat' na lekciyah Baptistov v Uzbekistane, tak vot ih propoganda zvuchit na mnogo umney i rassuditel'ney chem islamskaya. Ya bil udivlyon videt' uzbekov v zale, prinyavshih christianstvo.

Povttryus': yesli vi budete dumat', chto vashi dovodi (kotoriye yakobi sveli na net moi dovodi, hotya ya v principe yesho i ne nachinal privodit' nikakih sushestvennih dovodov) i v samom dele nebezpochevenni i imeyut "racional'nuyu osnovu", to vi budete prodoljat' proigrivat' v "bor'be" s christianskim missionerstvom.
Kak mne kajetsya christiamskoiye missioneri deystvuyut na mnogo effectivneye islamskih, im udayotsya "prinimat' v svoi ryadi" naiboleye intellegentnih lyudey. A u islamistov glavnim "orujiyem" prodoljayut ostavat'sya visokaya rojdayemost' i nacelennost' na malogramotnoye naseleniye.
(Tol'ko ne podumayte, chto ya i vas vklyuchayu v gruppu malogramotnih, tot fakt chto vi Umidovci uje govorit o vashem visokom statuse)
I yesho ya - ne Baptist.

Look forward

01-10-2001, 11:15 AM

Dear Freestyler,
Eti vse gosudarstvenniye chinovniki(bolshinstvo kotorih bivshiye kommnisti i ne tolko v nashey strane) boyatsya Islama i dayut normalno deysvovat, toest delat Missiyu. Iz-za etogo stroyat verblyuda iz igolki. I eti vse igri vliyayut na naselenia i u teh kotoriye ne znayut Islam, rojdayetsya nenavest Islamu.
Cheeers

Look forward

01-10-2001, 11:18 AM

Ya sdelal ne bolshuyu oshibku, doljno bit : 'ne dayut Islamu;
tnx

JUST

01-10-2001, 03:10 PM

ok, ppl, let's stop it here

JUST

Cute

01-10-2001, 06:11 PM

"Christianskiye missioneri namnogo effektivneye". Freestyler, mate, religion is not politics(campaign). Who is effective and who is not, pomoyemu nemnogo ot temi ushli. I voobshe Islam po pokazatelyam ohvata namnogo operejayet christianstvo. Mojet bit izza orujiya ili izza urovnya rojdayemosti, ;)
Not sober ( ne otnositsya k tomu ,chto Freestyler lyubit govorit)
rahmat

Cute

01-10-2001, 06:20 PM

Yana bir bor. I think that posting topics about islam is not good. Takim obrazom vi mojete podportit koe chego. Undan tashqari o'zbekcha qilib yozadigan bo'lsam agar biron kishini fikri bu postlardan yomon tomonga o'zgarsa, ya'ni imonga ta'sir qilsa javobgarligini o'ylab ko'ring. I eshe v zashitu Freestylera Ya toje dumayu chto nikto ne smojet izmenit moyu tochku zreniya takim obrazom.
Nima keragi bor...

====

01-11-2001, 03:56 AM

Freestyler, vse ponyatno. Eto s toboy sporit' bespolezno. I bros' svoy neuvajitel'niy ton. Mojet tut est' nekotorie ne russkoyazichnie, no namnogo umnee tebya, tak chto kamtar bo'lgin- kam bo'lmaysan.

Boshqalarga: Agar odam tushunmasa tushuntirishning hojati yo'q, bunday odamlar jaholat pardasiga o'ralgan, haqiqatni ko'rsatsang ham tan olmaydi.

Haligacha "ne riba ne myaso" bo'lib yurgan odamlarga bitta hikoya.
Hullas bitta avliyodan bitta ateist so'ragan ekan: "Menga qara, mana shuncha o'zingni cheklaysan, ichmaysan, ayollar bilan ishrat qilmaysan, mazza qilib hohlagan narsangni qilib yashamaysan, faraz qilgin o'lganingdan keyin narigi dunyo bo'lmasa nima qilasan?". Avliyo debdi:"Men tirikligimda faqat odamlarga yahshilik qilishga intilaman, buzuqchilik qilmayman, mast bo'lib birovning halovatini buzmayman, sharmanda bo'lmayman, hech bo'lmaganda yahshi odam edi degan nomim qoladi. Bolalarim qaerga bormasin ularga ham ancha yengillik bo'ladi." Keyin Avliyo so'rabdi: "Hey falonchi mana sen hozir nafsing hohlagan narsani qilasan, ayollar bilan ishrat qilasan, Hudoga ishonmaysan, faraz qilgin, o'lsang-u narigi dunyo bo'lsa sen nima qilasan?" deb savol bergan ekan.

Hullasi kalom qissadan hissa chiqaring.

Dedi

01-11-2001, 06:53 AM

Freestyler was born to laugh:), he always laughed :), is laughing at the moment, and I don't know if he will be able to laugh forever......

Dedi

Freestyler

01-11-2001, 07:08 AM

Ok, rebyata, ya hochu i nadeyus' koye chto ispravit' i izvinit'sya.

Vo pervih, ya priznayu svoy visokomerniy ton i vpred' obeshayu yego izbegat'.

Vo vtorih, yesli vi hotite chtobi ya s vami podiskutiroval na temu religii, ya gotov eto delat' s vami, potomu chto menya etot vopros toje ochen' interesuyet, hotya v dushe ya vsegda ostayus' neverusyushim (to bish ateistom). Ya dumayu, chto mojno sporit' civilizovanno i plodotvorno. Iz vsego etogo topica mne stalo yasno, chto u vas nevernaya kartina ob ateizme i u menya ne sovsem vernoye predstavleniye ob Islame. Poetomu spor dumayu budet umestnim i poleznim dlya obeih storon. Ved' v ideale, kak kto-to skazal, "V spore rojdayetsya istina!"

Teper' hochu skazat' tem, kto dumayet, chto ya schitayu sebya samim umnim. Ya nikogda ne schital sebya samim umnim, hotya mne hotelos' bi dumat', chto ya po krayney mere ne UO. I yesho, ne dumayte, chto ya vas schitayu glupeye sebya, potomuchto ya vas takovimi ne schiatyu. Yesli vi sdelali takiye vivodi iz moih predidushih tekstov, gde ya bil visokomernim, to ya uje poprosil izvineniya i priznal svoyu nepravotu.

Sincerely,

Freestyler

Dave

01-11-2001, 07:57 AM

just posting news, don't write anything to me.
ТАЛИБЫ ВВЕЛИ СМЕРТНУЮ КАЗНЬ ЗА ОТКАЗ ОТ ИСЛАМА

"Associated Press", Газета.Ру, 08.01.2001

8 января глава движения Талибан Мулла Мухаммед Омар в своем радиовыступлении объявил о том, что теперь мусульманам, попытавшимся сменить вероисповедание будет грозить смертная казнь. Такое же наказание ждет тех, кто будет агитировать за переход от исламской веры к какой-либо другой. "Во всем мире враги мусульман пытаются уничтожить истинный ислам" - сказал Омар. Кроме того лидер талибов объявил о вводе наказания в виде 5 лет тюрьмы для книготорговцев, в чьих магазинах будут обнаружены книги других религий.

student+(Latin)

01-11-2001, 09:09 AM

Freestyler,

umeesh prosit proshenie eto uje govorit v tvoyu polzu; nado umet prosit proshenie i kogda kto to eto sdelal nado umet i proshat.

primer ot (s nickom) "---" eto uje krayniy primer, esli ne oshibayus iz knigi Imama Gazzali; ya uveren etot primer ne doljen bit adresovan Freestyleru.

Bil interesniy sluchay s chelovekom*, knigi kotorogo ya chital. On odnajdi opozdal na vstrechu - na bolshoy spor s kafirom (Freestyler takovim ne yevlayetsya, u nego eshe mnogoe vperedi, iA). Kafir sprashivaet pered vsemi prichinu ego opozdaniya. Tot govorit:" Znaesh, ya jivu na tom beregu reki i doljen dobiratsya suyda cherez most. No izza liven, uroven vodi v reke podnyalsya i snes most s kotorogo ya doljen bil priyti. Ya togda podojdal poka podnimitsya veter, vzbyetsya molniya i derevo upadet nad rekoy i postroitsya most. Kogda eto sluchilos ya pereshel cherez most i prishel syuda". Kafir zaoral: " Ti kem nas schitaesh, razve mojet most sam posebe postroitsya?" Na eto on poluchil otvet: " A razve mogla priroda (i vsyo vokrug nas) sama posebe poyavitsya (i mojet ona sama posebya sushestvovat bez nikogo upravleniya)"?

Ya znayu 4 punkta pokotoromu mojno uznat, chto Allah (jj) est:

1. Priroda (vsyo, chto nas okrujaet)- dayot ukazku, chto ona ne mogla sama posebe poyavitsya ( i, chto ona upravlyaetsya po kakim to zakonam).

2. Qur'an - Allah (jj) v etoy knige znakomit sebya.

3. Sunnat - Prorok Muhammed (sav) govorit nam i znakomit Allah'a i Ego Deen.

4. Sovest - nasha sovest (nado prislushitsya k nashey sovesti i bit iskrennim prejde vsego s samim sebya).

*Imam A'zam - ya ukorotil etot rivayat.

Nodir

01-12-2001, 10:47 AM

:)
Posle exams mi yesho etu temu taaaaaaaak obsudim, Hudo Hohlasa. :)

arbUZik

01-15-2001, 12:05 PM

Hi, Freestyler! (I don't wanna say "Assalamu a'laykum!", make sense?)

The first thing I gonna ask you whether if you are Muslim or not.

If not, then I can say nothing, but if you are a "Muslim" then please read this carefully...

"Honestly, guys, I can only laugh at you, but I guess you wouldn't care.
Kakoy-to tam uchyoniy reshil: "Chto-to vsyo taki doljno ved' otrajat' imya allaha v ximii", i on nachal userdno koldovat'. Kak je sdelat' tak, chtobi imya Allaha vsyo taki virisovivalos' v etoy paganoy tablice Mendeleyeva. I nado je, o chudo, on nashyol kak..."

The quote above is quoted from you...

Firstly, you didn't write The Name of Allah SWT with capitals.

You want to laugh at Muslims, yeah???

In the past (Prophet sollalahu a'layhi vasallam's period) Qureish mushreeks also laughed at Muslims, when Allah SWT revealed some ayats about small insects such as bees, ants and etc (For more information, please look at Surotu'l Naml).

I haven't got Qur'an with me now, anyway, let me write the meaning of the ayat about the issue...

Allah SWT says: "We never shy about what We are talking. We reveal some ayats about small insects. These ayats make strong the faith of those who believe in Allah and The Day of Judgement; and the ayats make weak the faith of those who are disbelievers. Obviously, Allah knows best..."

Is it make a sense???

If yes, then NEVER say bad things against Islam and Muslims.

ALWAYS bear in YOUR mind that, Allah SWT and Prophet SAV opened A WAR against kafirs (disbelievers) and munafiqs.

Take it easy!

I wish you tawfiq!

Moron

01-15-2001, 01:40 PM

It's just a coinsidence what seems to be amazing. So words of many sciense fiction writers come to be true, it's just imagination that sometimes fits the reality. And in fact not all these words of such fantasies fit the reality.

So stories about Yagog and Magog, Iskandar Zulkarnein, Ahli kuhuf etc. actually taken from folclore of ethnoses (Yemen, Egypt, Jews and others)in Arabiya.

honestly reading Kur'an you find that it's highly unstructured, there are suggestions that some of them may have been lost or added (it's just a suggestion!), because the first collection of Kur'an scrypts was made only in 651 (!) because of the fear that Kur'an will get lost (after a fighting, where men who had chance to live with the prophet were killed).

If learn kur'an systematically u'll find out interestinf things - it reflects the life of the prophet, first scrypts are emotional, since the prophet was trying to gain ower, the last are somehow different. You can read things, that has to do with the personal life of the prophet - how to speak to him, how his wives (women) should wear (hijab - it was adressed the prophet's women, after Usman told the prophet that young boys can get interested in your wives, so they should not show their beauty) or if his wife Aisha was true or not, if the son that is not his own will be like his own son or not (merrying a wife of his own son (adopted son)) etc.

But in general I have to say Islam was smth more then Christianism that conducted inquisitions burrying jews and schohlars, or killing native population of the continent and imposing their religion with force.

I think the religion is a need of human, like love, satisfaction etc, and it should be fitted to modern life's realities (the way europeans managed to come out from religion's suppression - reneissance).

nobody

01-15-2001, 04:09 PM

Hi everybody.
I am not very good in religous knowledge, but i
do know what any muslim obliged to do and not to do.You Moron think that it is an coinsidence. And you say that religion needs for human for satisfaction. What a BULL SHIT (sorry, but i like to tell the truth) are you speaking? May be for you it is so. You remember about God when you have bad days, or when you are tied drinking, when you are get bored on women. You satisfy your needs and then you go back to you everyday life(which comands you shaytan).
The word 'Relegion' reminds people likemind you only Mosque and grave, thats all. Do you know the meaning of this word 'Religion' or in Arabic 'Deen' . 'Deen' means 'The way of life'. So Religion is a your life or your life is your religion. It starts when you born and ends when you die, or even it lasts after your death. Do you know at the begining there was only one Religion or Only one way of life. 'One way of life' does not mean that all people should do the same thing, or eat the same thing, or dress like each other, or drive the same kind car, or build the same size house. No, not at all. It means that every person should live under the Laws of God. Only one set of Laws. Not contradicting, not harming anyone, not putting anyone up to another one, but showing the right way to them. Then people likemind you created their own way of life.
Actually it was dictated them by shaytan. They were proud what they had done. They also thought Religion as a Thing which satisfies their needs when and where nessesary. You say that Hijab was only for the wives of Prophet SAV. No. There is no seperate Laws or Rules for seperate people. For God we are all the same. He rewards people according their doings, not by their titles or ranks. So Laws the same for all, no exception.
And you say:" If learn kur'an systematically u'll find out interestinf things - it reflects the life of the prophet, first scrypts are emotional, since the prophet was trying to gain ower, the last are somehow different. You can read things, that has to do with the personal life of the prophet - how to speak to him, how his wives (women) should wear (hijab - it was adressed the prophet's women, after Usman told the prophet that young boys can get interested in your wives, so they should not show their beauty) or if his wife Aisha was true or not, if the son that is not his own will be like his own son or not (merrying a wife of his own son (adopted son)) etc.".
I think you are speaking about Hadiths of Muhammad SAV. If you learn the Holy Qur'an systematically you cannt find even the name of Prophet SAV. Even if you had read The Holy Qur'an i think you'd read it only by your eyes, not by your mind or your brain. Have you ever met the name of Aisha RA in Holy Qur'an? Or have you ever heard or read that Prophet SAV had son after him
who would merry his wives? Where? In what Verse?
You say that it was only written in 651. Yes, but it is an exam for people. And indeed, the same time unfortunatily most people fail in this exam.
I think you understand what i am speaking for.
For you the above things are not miracles of God, it is not amazing for you. You are proud with your little knowledge of ' everything'. You cant accept that an illeteral arab somehow 14 Century ago could say something something acceptable nowadays. But you dont know,or you dont want to know, like proud Jews and Cristians and others, The Holy Qur'an is not the book of illeteral Muhammad SAV, but the word of the Creator. You cant understand it until ALLAH SWT wishes it to be, until HE opens the doors of you Soul and mind.
It seems to you a fairy tail. You say that all of them are the folklor of Jews or Cristians or other nations.But you dont know the very, very simple truth. The Jews was the beloved nation by God until their rejection of Jesus Christ.
I dont want to teach you Religion, because i myself should learn much more things yet.
I just wanted to tell you that Islam is not something, it is not 'thing'.Your words:
"But in general I have to say Islam was smth more then Christianism that conducted inquisitions burrying jews and schohlars, or killing native population of the continent and imposing their religion with force."
One more thing.Not Religion should be fitted to our 'modern' life, but our 'modern' life should be fitted to religion. You may laugh and say:" Is it true religion which is in Afganistan. Is it the way of life that God Almighty bids us." You may laugh as much as you want. But it is not the way which ALLAH SWT bids people. You yourself and everybody else know that they are( the warriors in Afganistan) are the only toys on the hand of Kafirs and Munafiquns.
After all, dont worry. ALLAH Almighty doesnt need you wonder on HIS miracles. HE does need any of us.
But we need ALLAH SWT.
I dont want to offend you. If i offended you i am sorry. But as i told at the beginning i like to tell the truth. And this is only my opinion.
Not any person is perfect in this world.
With respect
nobody.

P.B. Moron your name recalled me the name one of the sectas of Cristiansy,"MORONS", which exists in USA nowadays. The difference of this secta from all other Cristian world, that they never attends churchs, not any church. They satisfy their religious needs with the way which created themselves. May be this is amazing for you and you accepted the name "Moron".

Kroka

01-15-2001, 04:35 PM

Nobody,

Man your last PS sounds pathetic. I think you have to do your research before you speak of anything. Even though I am a Muslim, I have lived a year in MoRmon family and know a lot about them. You are just pathetic in your conclusion:

PS. Moron your name recalled me the name one of the sectas of Cristiansy,"MORONS", which exists in USA nowadays. 

First of all it is MoRmon, named after their profit Mormon and Book of Mormons. Learn to read. Secondly they call them selves Latter Day Saints. Their church is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The difference of this secta from all other Cristian world, that they never attends churchs, not any church.

Bullshit! They are more religious than any other sect. They always go to church (for 5-6 hours compared to 1-2 hours for Baptists or Catholics) on Sundays. The difference is that they believe that there was another Gods revelation in the form of Book of Mormon sent to prophets that lived in American continent.

 They satisfy their religious needs with the way which created themselves. May be this is amazing for you and you accepted the name "Moron".

Do your research. And don't think thay if you say something everyone else will buy it.

Respect to all,
Kroka

someone

01-15-2001, 04:59 PM

To Moron.

Moron, do you believe in destiny? And can you support all your ideas by some facts? I'd like to know your answers for the questions above.

Cheers.

Moron

01-15-2001, 06:00 PM

nobody:

you have your opinion based on things you believe, so keep them with you, I am not going to persuade anyone here. It's a process of exchanging ideas.

<You remember about God when you have bad days, or when you are tied drinking, when you are get bored on women. You satisfy your needs and then you go back to you everyday life(which comands you shaytan).>

Well, if someone is in trouble he wishes to come out, he wants smth unusual to happen to him. I think many stories of religios book are reflection of peoples' wishes, dreams etc. Isn't that satisfaction???
People go to mosques and churches to find smth that they need, I think it's natural need of normal people.

And some information about personage "Shaytan", if you read Tora and old skrypts you'll get sure that the personage of Satane came from Zorastranians - idea of 2 beginnings - good and evel.

You questions - please read some commentation for Kur'an etc.

>someone,

there are too many interesting thing to be understood, one cannot understand everything. About destiny - propbably it exists to some extend, if you understand under destiny cause and result relationship.

someone

01-15-2001, 06:14 PM

To Moron

If there is God, your opinion about the God means nothing, I mean, whatever you think it will change nothing. And vice versa. So what is the reality of life? By the way, the things are not restricted to those which are known to a human being....... As for your opinion about Qur'an being "not-structured"- you have just acknowledged to some exend that Qur'an is not like an ordinary book.

Freestyler

01-16-2001, 10:56 AM

To the ones who are interested in my religion:

I come from a predominantly muslim society although I do not consider myself Muslim. I am an atheist.

<Moron>, why are you hiding your IP? I am afraid others might think that I am the <Moron>.
Although I must admit that I agree with most of your ideas.

C u lata, guys

Moron

01-16-2001, 01:17 PM

Freestyler,
the reason I am hiding my IP is I have very good friends who can feel offended by me, that's why I prefer to by anonymious.

about religion - I am not atheith , neither I am religious. I believe in things what I understand and find correct, so far what I got in religion is it gives ordinary ppl some values. In my opinion this kind of role of religion as part of culture is positive for society. The value for me is human being, so I accept everything that makes human happy, not on expence of other people.

>someone,

I think god is what a human cannot understand or what cannot be understood. If one interpretes definitions according on his knowledge he can see that everything, that is strange is related to the god. So in religious texts you can read "look at the camel, how it came to existence, isn't it the god who created things from nothing?" or "he is everywhere at the same time" kinda that. You read that there's nth is like the god etc. If we say god is what happens everyday - system of all processes - creation, evolution etc. then it exists. And in everyday life one can hear if smth bad happens to a bad guy - they'll say Allah punished him etc. So what's logic and correct in this world is god.

Lucky

01-16-2001, 04:27 PM

Guys I am sorry to interrupt you, but I think we should stop discussing the religion here. The purpose of this thread was not to affirm or deny any religios beliefs and practices. The purpose was, as the topic says, "This is amazing.", how amazing were those things in Quran. You were supposed to reply whether this was amazing or not. I noticed that only the few noticed the purpose of this thread. For those who would like to argue:
Yes, you have a right to believe or not to believe in any relgion however you do not have a right to say others that their belief is wrong and argue with them on that. Islam is our (muslims' religion), Atheism or any other thing is your religion. Propogate your way of thinking in another thread. I hope there won't be any objection to that. I see that people are accusing me on extremism and fanatism which is not appliable to me. I see those extremistic spirit on those very people. One of the sighns of extremism is that a person thinks that only he is right and others are always wrong and never wants to come on the common ground. Please, keep in mind extremism could be in any form: political, relgious and social. Personally, I respect democratic rules of human rights which I think does not contradict with islamic teachings on many conditions.
With respect and regards, yours sincerly
Cheers:),