Real Story of Taleban

[Anti-Anti-Taliban]

Qchi bolgaBr. Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi:



I was just coming from [a meeting with] a group of scholars, and the first thing we started there was the statues. And the first thing we started here was also the statues. It's very unfortunate how little we see and how little we know. And it really confuses me, if people really know that little or not. Nobody has seen the problems of Afghanistan; nobody saw their problems before. And the only thing that represents Afghanistan today are the statues.



The problem of Afghanistan was not new. As you know that Afghanistan is called, "The Crossroads of Asia." So, we are suffering because of our geo-strategic location. We have suffered in the 18th century, 19th century, and we are still suffering in this century.



We have not attacked the British. We have not attacked the Russians. It was them who attacked us. So the problems in Afghanistan you see is not our creation. That reflects the image of the world. If you don't like the image in the mirror, do not break the mirror; break your face.



The problems in Afghanistan started in 1979. Afghanistan was a peaceful country and it was doing its own job. The Russians, along with their 140,000 troops attacked Afghanistan in the December of 1979, just 21 years ago, stayed there for a decade, killed one and a half million people, maimed one million more people, and six million out of the eighteen million people migrated because of the Russian brutalities. Even today, our children are dying because of the landmines that they planted for us. And nobody knows about this.



After the Russians left-during the Russian occupation, on the other side, the American government, the British government, the French, the Chinese, and all of the rest, supported the counter-revolutionaries called the Mujahideen; 7 parties only in Pakistan and 8 parties in Iran who fought the Russian occupation. And after the Russians left, these parties went into Afghanistan. All of them had different ideologies, a lot of weapon[s]. And instead of having a single administration, they fought in Afghanistan. The destruction that they brought was worse than the destruction the Russians brought. 63,000 people were only killed in the capitol, Kabul. Seeing all this chaos, and the complete destruction of our country, and I don't have to forget that after the Soviets left, another million people migrated because of the lawlessness that existed in Afghanistan-7 million people.



So seeing this destruction and lawlessness, a group of students called the Taliban-Taliban is the plural word of "students" in our language; it may be two students in Arabic, but in our language it means "students"-so a group of students started a movement called the Movement of Students. It first started in a village in the southern province of Afghanistan, called Kandahar. It happened when a war-lord, or a commander abducted two minor girls, raped them, and the parents of those girls went to a school and asked the teacher of the school to help them. The teacher of that school, along with his 53 students, finding only 16 guns, went and attacked the base of that commander. After releasing those two girls, they hanged that commander, and so many of their [the commander's] people were also hanged. This story was told everywhere; and this was called the "terrorist" story of the Taliban, or the Students. BBC also quoted this story. Seeing or hearing this story, many other students joined this movement and started disarming the rest of the warlords, who were worse than these. I will not prolong this story-so far, this same students' movement controls 95% of the country; they captured the capitol, including the four major cities. And only a bunch of those warlords are remaining in the northern corridor of Afghanistan.



So our achievements are as follows. We are in a government for only five years, and the following things that we have done, and many of you may not know:



a.. The first thing we have done is reunify the fragmented country. Afghanistan was formerly fragmented into five parts. The first thing we have done is to reunify that country. The United Nations, the United States, everybody was confused as to how to reunify that country, and nobody could do it. First thing we have done is to reunify that country.
b.. Second thing we have done, which everybody failed to do, was disarming a population. After dealing [with] the war of the Russians, and the Americans I would say, every Afghan got a Kalashnikov, and even sophisticated weapons such as stinger missiles, and they even got fighter planes and fighter helicopters. So disarming these people was impossible. The United Nations in 1992 passed an appeal asking for 3 billion dollars to re-purchase that arms, to start a process of repurchasing those arms. And suddenly, because of its impracticalibility, that plan never materialized, and everybody forgot about Afghanistan. So the second thing we have done is to disarm 95% of that country.
c.. And the third thing that we have done is to establish a single administration under Afghanistan, which did not exist for 10 years

[Anti-Anti-taleban]

d.. And the fourth achievement that we have-that is surprising to everybody-is that we have eradicated 75% of all worlds Opium cultivation. Afghanistan produced 75% of all worlds Opium. The drug, you know that Opium? The Narcotics business? And last year we issued an edict asking the people to stop growing Opium, and this year, the United Nations Drug Control Program, UNDCP, and their head, [Mr.] Barnard F., proudly announced that there was 0% of Opium cultivation. Not at all. And this was not a good news for UN itself because many of them lost their jobs. In the UNDCP, 700 so called "experts" were working there and they got their salaries and they never went into Afghanistan. So when we issued this edict, I know that they were not happy. And this year they lost their jobs. And this was our fourth achievement.
e.. The fifth achievement that we have, but it's a little controversial, some of our friends will not know is the restoration of Human rights. Now, YOU may think that is a violation of Human Rights, but from OUR perspective that is the restoration of Human Rights. Because usually [among] the fundamental rights of a human being is the right to Live. Before us, nobody could live peacefully in Afghanistan. So the first thing we have done, begun [to give] to the people is a secure and peaceful life. The second major thing that we have restored is to give them free and fair justice; you don't have to buy justice, unlike here. You will have justice freely. And you have criticized us for violating women's rights; now, who knows what happened before us. Only some symbolic schools, or symbolic posts were given to some women in the ministry, and that was called the restoration of women's rights. I can see some Afghans living here, and they will agree with me, that in the rural areas of Afghanistan, women were used as animals. They were SOLD actually. The first thing we have done is to give the self-determination to women, and it happened not in the history of Afghanistan. Throughout the history of Afghanistan, during all the so-called civilized kings or whatever, they didn't give this right to women, so women were sold. They didn't have the right to select their husbands, or to reject their husbands. First thing we have done is to let them choose their future. And you will know that throughout south Asia, women are killed under the title of "honor killings." It happens when a woman's relation is detected with a man, whether or not the relation was sexual, they're both killed. But now this is not happening in our country. And the third thing that happened only in Afghanistan, was women were exchanged as gifts; this was not something religious; this was something cultural. When two tribal tribes were fighting among themselves, then in order to get their tribal issue reconciliated, they would exchange women, and then [they] would make, or announce reconciliation. And this has been stopped. If we [had to give] fundamental rights of woman, we had to start from zero; we couldn't jump in the middle. Now you've asked me about the rights of women's education and the rights of women's work. Unlike what is said here, women do work in Afghanistan. You're right that until 1997-I mean, in 1996 when we captured the capitol Kabul, we did ask women to stay home. It didn't mean that we wanted them to stay at home forever, but nobody listened to us. We said that there is no law, and there is no order, and have to stay at home. They were raped before us, everyday. So, after we disarmed the people, and after we brought law and order, and now women are working. You are right that women are not working in the ministry of defense, like here. We don't want our women to be fighter pilot[s], or to be used as objects of decoration for advertisements. But they do work. They work in the Ministry of Health, Interior, Ministry of Education, Ministry of Social Affairs, and so on. So, and we don't have any problem with women's education. We have said that we want education, and we will have education whether or not we are under anybody's pressure, because that is part of our beli

[Anti-Anti-Taleban]

We are ordered to do that. When we say that there should be segregated schools, it does not mean that we don't want our women to be educated. It is true that we are against co-education; but it is not true that we are against women's education. We do have schools even now, but the problem is the resources. We cannot expand these programs. Before, our government there were numerous curriculums that were going on; there were curriculums which preached the king-for the kings, and there were curriculums which preached for the communists, and there were curriculums from all these seven parties [the previously mentioned]. So, the Students were confused as to what to study, and the first we have done today is to unify that curriculum, and that's going on. But we are criticized, and we say that instead of criticism, if you just help us once, that will make a difference. Because criticism will not make a difference. If you [talk?] criticism from New York, thousands of miles away, we don't care. But if you come there and help us, we do care. So actually there are more girls students studying in the faculty of medical sciences than boys are. This is not me who is saying this, it is the United Nations who has announced this. Recently we reopened the faculty of medical science in all major cities of Afghanistan and in Kandahar, there are more girl students than boys. But they are segregated. And the Swedish committees have also established schools for girls. I know they are not enough, but that's what we can do. So, that is what I say that we have restored. I don't say we are 100% perfect, and nobody will say that they are 100% perfect. We do have shortcomings, and we do need to amend our policies. But we can't do everything over night.
f.. And the sixth problem, that we are-is it sixth or seventh? Seventh I think-the seventh problem that we are accused of is Terrorism, or the existence of terrorists in Afghanistan. And for Americans terrorism or terrorist means only bin Laden. Now you will not know that Afghanistan, or bin Laden was in Afghanistan 17 years before even we existed. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan, fought the Soviet Union, and Mr. Ronald Reagan, the president of America in that time, and Dick, Mr. Dick Chaney called such people "freedom fighters" or the "Heroes of Independence," because they were fighting for their cause. So Osama bin Laden was one of those guys who was instigated by such media reports, so in that provocation by these countries to go to Afghanistan and fight the Soviets there. And now when the Soviet Union is fragmented, such people were not needed anymore, and they were transformed into terrorists-from heroes to terrorists. So exactly like Mr. Yassir Arafat was transformed from a terrorist to a hero. So we don't know as to what is the definition of Terrorism. We do regret that the terrorists were actually horrific acts and they were terrorist acts. But if they are terrorist acts, what is the difference between those terrorist acts and the attacks on Afghanistan-when in 1998 attacks, cruise missile attacks on Afghanistan. Neither of the two were declared and both of them killed civilians. So we are confused as to what is the definition of Terrorism. If it means killing civilians blindly, both of them killed civilians blindly. And the fact is, I'm not going to be offensive or rude, or rude about this, I'm going to be frank. And I think it's sometimes honest to be rude. If the United States that it has acted for its defense, lets see. The United States government tried to kill a man without even giving him a fair trial. In 1998, they just sent cruise missiles into Afghanistan and they announced that they were trying to kill Osama bin Laden. We didn't know Osama bin Laden th

[Anti-Anti-Taleban]

I didn't know him; he was just a simple man. So we were all shocked. I was one of those men who was sitting at home at night, I was called for an immediate council meeting and we all were told the United States have attacked Afghanistan. With 75 cruise missiles and trying to kill one man. And they missed that man; killed 19 other students and never apologized for those killings. So what would you do if you were in our status; if we were to go and send 75 cruise missiles into the United States and say that we were going to kill a man that we thought-not believed-that we thought was responsible for our embassy, and we missed that man, and we killed 19 other Americans-what would the United States do? An instant declaration of war. But we were polite. We didn't declare war. We had a lot of problems at home; we didn't want further problem[s]. And since then, we are very open-minded on this issue. We have said, that if really this man is involved in the Kenya/Tanzania acts, if anybody can give us proof or evidence about his involvement in these horrific acts, we will punish him. Nobody gave us evidence. We put him on trial for 45 days and nobody gave us any kind of evidence. The fact is that the United States told us they did not believe in our judicial system. We were surprised as to what kind of judicial system they have? They showed us as to what they are doing to the people-they just tried to kill a man without even giving him a fair trial, even if one of us is a criminal here, the police is not going to blow his house, he must go to a court first. So, that was rejected. Our first proposal, despite all these things, was rejected. They said they will not believe in our judicial system, and we must give him to New York. The second proposal that we gave after the rejection of this first proposal we gave was, we are ready to accept an international monitoring group to come into Afghanistan and monitor this man's activities in Afghanistan. So that he does nothing. Even that he has no telecommunications [--]. That proposal was also rejected. And the third proposal we gave, six months ago, was that we were ready, that we were ready to try or accept a third Islamic country's decision, or the trial of [--] in a third Islamic country, with consent of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan-that was also rejected. So we don't know, as to what is the problem behind. If bin Laden was the only issue, we are still very open minded, and for the fourth time, I'm here, with a letter from my leadership that I'm going to submit to the state department hoping that they will resolve the problem. But I don't think so [that] they'll solve the problem. Because we think, and I personally think now that maybe the United States is looking for a Boogy Man always. Remember what Gorbachev said? He said, that he's going to do the worst thing ever to the United States. And everybody thought that he's going to blow the United States with nuclear weapon[s]. But he said, "I'm going to remove their enemy." And then he fragmented Soviet Union. And he was right. After he fragmented Soviet Union, a lot of people lost their jobs in the Pentagon, in the CIA, and the FBI, because they were not needed anymore. So we think that maybe these guys are looking for a Boogy Man now. Maybe they want to justify their annual budget, maybe they want to make their citizens feel that they are still needed to defend them. Afghanistan is not a terrorist state; we cannot even make a needle. How are we going to be a terrorist state? How are we going to be a threat to the world? If the world "terrorism" is really derived from the word "terror", then there are countries making weapons of mass destruction, countries making nuclear weapons, forest deforestation, soil, air, and water pollution-they are terrorist states; we are not. We cannot even make a needle; how are we going to be a threat to the world? So as I said in the beginning, the situation in Afghanistan is not our creation. The situation in Afghanistan reflects the world's image. If you don't like the image in the mirror, do not break the mirror; break your face.

[Anti-Anti-taleban]

Now, we are under sanctions. And the sanctions have caused a lot of problems, despite that we are going under so many problems, the 23 years of continuous war, the total destruction of our infrastructure, and the problem of refugees, and the problem of land mines in our agricultural lands, all of a sudden the United Nations, with the provocation of Russia, is imposing sanctions on Afghanistan. And the sanctions have been approved; we are under sanctions. Several hundred children died a month ago, here it is (holds up pamphlet). Seven hundred children died because of malnutrition and the severe cold weather. Nobody even talked about that. Everybody knows about the statues. For us, we are surprised, that the world is destroying our future with economic sanctions, then they have no right to worry about our past. Everybody is saying that they are destroying their heritage-they don't have any right to talk about that. They are destroying the future of our children with economic sanctions, how are they going to justify talking about our past? I know it's not rational and logical to blow the statues for, for retaliation of economic sanctions. But this is how it is. I called, after this announcements, I called my headquarters, and I found out, I was really confused, I asked them, why are they going to blow the statues, and I talked to the head of the council of scholars of people, who had actually decided this, he told me that UNESCO and NGO from Sweden, or from one of these Scandinavian countries-Norway, Sweden, one of these-they had actually come, with a project of rebuilding the face of these statues, which have worn by rain. So the council of people had told them to spend that money in saving the lives of these children, instead of spending that money to [restore these] statues. And these guys said that, "No, this money is only for the statues." And the people were really pissed off. They said that, "If you don't care about our children, we are going to blow those statues."



[Person from the Audience yells, "Takbeer!"]

[Audience responds, "Allahu Akbar!"]



I don't say that he's right or wrong, the decision is yours. Think of yourself. If you are in such a problem, what would you do? If your children are dying in front of your eyes, and you are under sanctions, and then the same people who have imposed sanctions and are coming and building statues here? What will you do? So, I talked to my headquarters today, and they said that the statues have not been blown so far. But the people are so angry. They are really angry, they want to blow them. And there is-Kofi Annan is going, you know Kofi Annan, the Secretary General of United Nations? He went to [--], to Pakistan, and he said he's going to meet our representative there. This man never bothered to enter, to talk about these children, he never bothered himself to talk about six million refugees, and he never talked about [the] poverty of Afghanistan. He only goes to that region because of these statues. And the OIC is also, they've also sent a mission to go to Kabul and talk about those statues.

[Anti-Anti-Taleban]

So we're really confused. That the world is really caring about the statues, and then they don't care about human beings. I don't say we have to retaliate in blowing the statues; we have not done that. But if we were to destroy those statues, we would have destroyed them three years before now, because we captured those areas those areas three years before now. We didn't want to blow them. And now the situation has come, and it's not our decision. This is the decision of the scholars and the people. And that is the decision has been approved by the Supreme Court. We cannot reject this decision. So these guys are there, the OIC and some, even I think some ministers from different countries are there to save the lives of these statutes. I think they will not be blown because of the concerns of these people. But it is really, really ridiculous. These people do not care about children, about people who are dying there, about the foreign interference that still exists, they only care about the statues. And I'm sure they don't care about our heritage. They don't care about our heritage; they only care about their "picnic site" one time. Maybe they'll have a good picnic site there, seeing those statues. They don't care about our heritage, I'm sure. If they were to care about our past, they wouldn't destroy our future. And I'm sure these sanctions which are imposed on our government will never change us, because for us, our ideology is everything. To try to change our ideology with economic sanctions will never work. It may work in the United States, where the economy is everything, but for us, our ideology is everything. [--] And we believe that it is better to die for something than to live for nothing.



We are still open-minded. We are still, we have still opened our doors for negotiations, but our offices are closed everywhere-our office was closed in New York a week ago. They are trying to shut our offices in other countries, trying to isolate us, and they don't know that isolation is counter-productive. Because they don't have experts; the only experts they have are those people who speak English. They don't even speak the language. Those experts who are advising the sanctions, or the sanction committee have not even been to Afghanistan. And they are setting benchmarks for us to achieve.



I'm prolonging this speech, I'm sorry, because I have been repeating it everywhere, so I may have left some thing in it, and I will let you ask me questions.

[Applause from Audience]



***Important Note: What follows are some of the answers to some of the questions that were asked during the Question and Answer session. Most of the questions were not included due to the poor recording. Apologies for the inconvenience.***

[Anti-Anti-taleban]

Br. Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi:



· [A questioner asks about the statement he heard on the radio from the Afghan former minister (Mutawakkil) confirming that the statues have been destroyed, and further adds, "Does that mean the statues of Hindus and Sikhs will also be destroyed?" He further asked that since the destruction of the statues was done in retaliation, "Was it really saving the children?" (it was asked in a provocative manner)]



Thank you very much and unfortunately again, the first question is the statues. So the statues as I told you, have not been destroyed so far. And I have contacted my headquarters there, and if they were destroyed, then people would not bother going there; as I told you Kofi Annan is there, OIC is there, and our foreign minister is there. And for us, as he [the questioner] said that Mutawakkil has said that [that the statues have been destroyed], I don't think he has said that they are destroyed. He said that [that the statues have not been destroyed]. And I don't reject this. They raised an edict which says these [the statues] should be blown. And we are not against Buddhists; absolutely wrong. We are not against any religion. There are Hindus living in Afghanistan; there are different religions. There is one man who is a Jew living in Afghanistan.



[Audience laughs]



So we are not against any religion. And there is no Buddhist in Afghanistan, this I can say. In our religion, if anything, you can leave anything until it is not harmful to you. If these Buddhas were not harmful to us, so far. But now when the money is going to Buddhas reconstruction, and the children are dying next door, we think it's harmful now. Not we think, the people think. And I told you that this decision is taken by the council of scholars and the council of people. And has been approved by the Supreme Court. And the media is saying everywhere that it is an edict by our leadership. Have you ever seen our leadership on TV? Have you ever seen or heard him (Mullah Umar) on international radio? He has never been on radio, so it's absolutely wrong that we issued an edict. I do agree that there is an edict, but by the council of people and the scholars, and has been approved by the Supreme Court, but has not been implemented so far. Is it enough? You know, really, I am asked so much about these statues that I have a headache now. If I go back to Afghanistan, I will blow them.



[Audience laughs]



· [Questioner asks about the infighting between Mujahideens now. He asks, in the past we knew that there was one common enemy (the Russians) and it was easy to support the Mujahideen but now it's the groups of Mujahideens fighting between each other. How do you explain this?]



They [the different Mujahideen groups] killed so many people, and there were so many problem[s]. And that's why we started our movement. It's all in these people. They didn't fight for Shari'ah, or they didn't fight for Afghanistan, they only fought for their future post in power. So we, as I told you that, we finished that. And only now, we have one opposition headed by Ahmed Shah Masood. And we don't have much problems with him. We had talks with his representative in Ashkabad in Ramadhaan this year, and I was there. So, we say that he failed in bringing about a constitution, a unified government; he could not even unify the capitol, Kabul. So we did all these things. So we asked him, despite that he controls nothing, except 5% in the mountains, and we have said we are still open-minded. We agree that he should have a post, because he has fought the Russians. And in `98, we agreed on a joint government; actually, I was also there, so we agreed in giving them three ministries and accepting their judicial system merging with our judicial system, and giving them three or four district or provincial governors or something like that. And they agreed on that. Our, on our part, we asked them to give us their weapons, because the problem in Afghanistan is not political differences. The problem in Afghanistan is the weapons. Everybody has had weapons, and now if they are fighting us, it is not because of our very much ideological differences; it's because of weapons. There were a lot of weapons before, and you know, the Afghans will know that so many times they tried to have one government and then after a week or so, they fought, because all of them got different defense ministries, and they would fight. So now we have said that the problems in Afghanistan is not the political problem; it is the arms which exist. We are, we will accept them to be in our government if he accepts to give his arms to the Ministers of Defense. We have no problem however.

[Anti-Anti-taleban]

· [A questioner asked, "As Salaamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatullaahi wa Barakaatuh. Brother, Afghanistan is now supposed to be a Muslim country, Insha'Allah. And these statues are just like the statues in Makkah, when Rasoolillah (saws) came to Makkah, and it was the very first thing that he did was to destroy the statues. What is taking us so long? Why aren't they destroyed already?" Audience laughs, some say Takbeer]



So, I don't know what to say. We don't have any Buddhists as I told you; we have to look at the problems of the Muslim minorities in some countries. So we do not want to create problems for them, that's why we are still waiting, and we hope that we will resolve this problem.



· [A written question read, "What is your opinion about killing the Iranian officers in Heraat in 1998?"]



So, there is this story about seven-nine, nine Iranians, one of them was a journalist, and the rest of them were called diplomats. It happened in `98 when we were capturing a city in the north of Afghanistan called Mazar-e-Shareef when we were, we announced before our campaign in liberating that city, we announced that all diplomats of organizations, including the UN, the diplomatic missions, and NGOs to evacuate because of the possible fighting that may happen in the city too. So, all of them evacuated, the United Nations, the NGOs, and even those people who actually bombed them, they also evacuated, so the only people who remained there was some seven, or eight, night Iranians, who were actually not diplomats, who were actually military advisors to their puppets in Afghanistan. So, and we didn't kill them in diplomatic mission; they were killed on their way to Bamiyan; Bamiyan is another city in central Afghanistan, so they were-and we didn't want to kill them; they just died because of the shelling that happened. And we issued an edict, and we declared that we were sorry for what happened. And now the Iranian government has also sent their mission, and when I was coming there, three of their villages were in Afghanistan; they reopened their consulate here and I think they have re-thought their policies now and maybe they will have a new chapter of friendship with us and I hope it will happen.



· [Question asked about how people, especially Muslims, need to be educated about the situation in Afghanistan. He went on further to ask about whether or not he would be under a physical threat if he were to shave his beard and walk into Afghanistan, or if a sister would be under a physical threat if a sister were to wear Hijab according to the Islamic standards, not wearing Burqah.]



You say that all the Muslims, or all the people, must be educated on the situation in Afghanistan. And now I am thinking that first they must be de-educated to try to understand what we are saying. There are not [--], they are really trying how to approach, and you are right, and I agree that you must have Public Relations, in teaching people, or at least, letting them know what we say. But as I told you that we have other priorities.

[Anti-Anti-taleban]

Our priority is to save the children. Our priority is to de-mine our country. Our priority is to reunify our country. Our priority is to stop the foreign interference. Our priority is to fight the [--] that is already operating in our country. So for us to talk about Public Relations, it is important, but it cannot-what would you do if you were in this status? And it is not easy to do Public Relations. You have to spend a lot of money. I will tell you a story of CNN. CNN was in Afghanistan interviewing bin Laden, in `98. You have to be careful in listening to this. I was there, and they asked bin Laden as to what was the thinking about the killing of civilians in Iraq. After three hours of formal conversation, and the camera was rolling. He said, that if all American citizens and if all British citizens are willing, or supporting, to kill all Iraqi civilians, then all American citizens and all British citizens deserve the same thing-or to be killed. CNN cut everything. Three-hour conversation was not there, only thing they put was-and it was not complete-the only clause that they said was, the independent clause of what he said, they said that, "all American and British citizens must be killed." This is what came on the air. But he didn't mean this. And I know that all Americans do not support the killing [of] civilians there. Not even a quarter of that. That was impossible. But now what they taught their people was that bin Laden is saying that all American civilians must be killed. That is the story of media, and the media here is very irresponsible. They are commercialized, and they'll do anything for selling advertisements.



He [the questioner] talked about the beard and the veil. First of all, for all non-Afghans, this rule does not apply. So there are many non-Afghans who are working there; there are actually Americans who are working there in the UN, there are many people from different parts of the world. And they do whatever [--], they don't care. And we don't have a law for them. But Afghanistan is a country that has gone through 23 years of war, and there is still war, and the military is mixed with the people. Then you must have some sort of strict law, in order to insure security and peace in Afghanistan. So, maybe it is ridiculous for you that we ask people to grow beards, but this is what, it is in Afghanistan, and the Afghans do leave beard, whether or not you tell them. And it's something natural, and it's something [--]. And regarding the veil, or the Burqas, or the Islamic dress code, that is something that exists in Afghanistan for centuries. And it does exist in Iran, it does exist in Saudi Arabia, it exists in many Islamic countries. It has nothing to do only with Afghanistan. And it does even exist here. So you can't force people not to have Burqas, and we do have that constitution that at this time, women should cover up. For us because our priority is that they should be safe.



· [Questioner asks about what Afghans living in the US can do for Afghanistan. She also gives a brief account of her experience in Afghanistan, when she traveled there recently, and gave proof that schools existed there, and that the situation there is much better, more peaceful than it was six years ago. She traveled alone, all over the country.]



Thank you very much. I'm very happy that at least I found a proof!



[Audience laughs]

[Anti-Anti-taleban]

I'm thankful to you [for] what you say, and I really appreciate the emotions you have for your country. I myself, I'm 24, and serving my country. I could play football now, and I could even play here, and I could stay in the United States, but I don't do any of those things-I serve my country. So I agree that whatever, all those things that exist in Afghanistan, maybe there are many things that we don't want, but they do exist. So we are not a sponsor for that. They did exist for two decade[s]. So the best thing to do for Afghanistan is to have an association of Afghans to raise funds, and the best thing I would say [is to] educate people. Instead of criticism, they can come there and open a school. They can open a school for girls, for boys. But that would be the best thing. Unfortunately some of our Afghans are sitting in their air-conditioning rooms here, play their TV's, and when they have nothing to do, then they criticize us because we can't make Europe for them. We can do it, we have a lot of problems, but the first thing they should do is to stop harming us. They have to come and help us, in all the sectors. We do need all the Afghans from here. If they really criticize our policies, they should come there and criticize our policies, not from here. So the best thing for you is for you people to raise funds, do NOT give it to us, one of you should come there, help the people.



· [Questioner: "Do you respect our right to tell you that if you didn't believe in PR, you wouldn't be here right now. [--] Actually I'd like to ask you, does your version of Islam preach hate? I don't know, I'm asking you; do you believe in the religion of hate? Because I was very disgusted when that lady got up and asked you why don't you blow those idols, because that boy right there (points to a boy in the audience) laughed." MSA Representative interrupts, "Please ask your question." Questioner, "I'm asking you, are you preaching hate?" MSA Representative, "Is that your question?" Questioner, "That is the question." He continues to argue.]



Enough? I don't know what to say but you only expressed your emotions. Islam means Peace. First you have to understand. And a peaceful religion will never preach for Hate. And we do not preach for Hate. And you said that if we didn't believe in Public Relations, I wouldn't be here. It's my first time here, and I've waited for an American Visa for a long time, and I'm not used to doing these things. I brought a letter from my leadership that I explained before that I will be submitting to the leader of the administration here, and hoping that they will re-think their policies. So I do believe that, I say that we must believe in Public Relations because they are very important. But I say that Public Relations needs a lot resources, and at this time we have resources for the [--] for the plight of our people.



[Questioner: "I actually agree with you about the western media; they are very biased [--], but looking at people like him (the young boy who laughed) at such a young age.[--]."]



[Small dispute in the Audience]



[Father of young boy, "He is my son, ok, and you have come here to accuse him..[--]." MSA Representatives calm both parties and rest of Audience, and apologizes to audience.]



· [Questioner asks about women being required to have a male escort whenever they go out. She also questions whether or not if she were to go into Afghanistan wearing what she was now (a jilbab and hijab) would she be under any physical threat.]

[Anti-Anti-taleban]

You [the questioner] said, told me about whether a woman was allowed to go without a male escort. I'm here, and my wife is shopping in Kandahar now. So they don't have to be escorted, this is absolutely wrong. Yes, they were, in those cities that we captured first, because that was for their safety. Now, they don't have to. And I don't have any problem with whatever you wear, and women do wear the same thing that you do wear, and they don't have any problems. And I say that those cities, which are close to the frontline and there is military operations going on close, there are thousands of military soldiers of ours, we do ask women to avoid the social areas. Now you're not understanding what I mean, but some of our friends here do understand. In a country that is in a war, the military is mixed with the people, and there are certain limitations. So I can't go beyond that, and I say that women does not have to be escorted. I'm here now and my wife is shopping maybe in Kandahar.



· [Questioner asks "What is Afghanistan's priority in regards to establishing an Islamic state for all Muslims, not just for Afghans?"]



He'd like to destroy us.



[Audience laughs]



We have our first headache in Afghanistan, and that's a big headache. We have a full-time job there. If we were worked 24 hours a day, we will hardly ever be able to re-construct an [--] Islamic system in our own country. And we have no intention of going beyond our borders, and neither we can. So, all these people who exist in other countries, or their policies, they have nothing to do with us. We are only concerned about Afghanistan. And please do not try to make assumptions. Ask me questions. I was asked in, I was in Bay Area just yesterday, a journalist asked me, "Why do you hate women?" And I told him, "Why do you beat your wife?" And he said, "I don't beat my wife." I said, "I don't hate women."



[Audience laughs]



So you have to ask me questions. You just make assumptions. You just make an assumption. Like he said, you explain for one hour, for five minutes saying the same thing again and again, you've made an assumption. You didn't ask me whether a woman must be escorted or not-this is an easy question. But if you say, "Why are you doing this", "Why are you doing..." We're not doing it. The question is, here, you don't have to make assumptions.



· [Questioner: "My country (Iran) is suffering from drug-trafficking from Afghanistan; you said that you [--] drugs from your area, but how can you explain this contradiction? You have said that you cannot even make a needle, what does it mean..?"]




I would like to answer this question first and then I will not forget. I said Afghanistan produced 75% of all worlds Opium, 75% of all worlds. And we eradicated it last year. And this was announced not only by United Nations, who rejects this? All of them know it was announced by Iranian government [--]. I don't say it was we eradicated five years ago-[it was] this year. United Nations announced.



[Questioner: "You mean 2001? So that's two months ago??. But our country is still suffering from that?!" He continues to argue.]



Please, please try to hear what I'm saying.



[Questioner continues to talk and argue, MSA representatives try to calm him down.]



[Questioner goes on, "I know, but this is the question I wanted to ask!"...]

[Anti-Anti-taleban]

My brother, listen to me. You say that your country is still suffering from Opium from Afghanistan. I do not say that we eradicated it five years ago. This year, the United Nations Drug Control Program, announced that there was 0% Opium cultivation; Iran, too, admitted that. So if you don't know that, your problem. New York Times announced this; it was in a New York Times editoral. So if you don't know this, then it's your problem. I do admit that there are still some piles of Opium that exists from the years before the last cultivation that may [have been sent] to your country. But we will admit, that we have, and I told you that, there are missions for us, across Afghanistan, to Iran, to our country, and they are trying to eradicate the already existing Opium; it was not produced this year; it was produced the year before last.



· [Questioner asks whether or not they have asked for a loan from the World Bank or BMF]



Not yet. We have not asked BMF neither the World Bank to help us. But if they do help us, we will no reject it. So we are not asking because we are not being recognized so we can't ask them for loans.



· [Questioner is a Political Scientist and is asking whether or not Bureaucrats and Technocrats are needed in Afghanistan because, according to him, the Taliban are not smart enough, suitable to be governing Afghanistan.]



We never say that we are perfect. The question is, "Who could do more than we do?" These seven parties? The Communists? Or the King? Who did this? The things that we have done? Who could do more than that? It's very easy to say, to criticize from here, "Do this, do this, do that.." But it's very difficult to do that. You said that the Taliban are not Bureaucrats and Technocrats, and we're not going to change that. I'm sorry to say, you know what the old king of Afghanistan, he was 88 years old, and he spent seven years living in Rome, he had bought an island there, and now this man wants to come back to Afghanistan and head the government. The old, rotten knucklehead.



[Audience laughs]



So, we were very surprised as to what did he do in 43 years of his government? He didn't do anything. He only knew how to decorate his palace. I'm sorry to say this. And now the same man, after 43 years-Sorry, 27 years, is willing to go back and govern; he cannot even take a flight back to Afghanistan. He's too weak. So how's he going to? So we do need professionals. We don't say that we are perfect. And I repeat it again, we cannot come here, and ask everybody to come help us. We have asked so many times. Anybody willing to help their country, come and help. And many people come and ask me, "Well, how do we go?"...How did you come here?!



[Audience laughs]



And yeah, go there-if women can go there, what is the problem? But if you ask us to give you the government, then that's difficult. So I agree with you that we need Technocrats, but we don't need politicians.





This ends the transcribed version of the lecture by Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi. Please distribute it to as many people as you can Insha'Allah, as it contains a lot of valuable information and insights; it clears up many misunderstandings that people have today regarding the Taliban. If we can come together to spread this knowledge, perhaps we can alleviate the burdens that Afghanistan is experiencing by creating an awareness of the situation there, and thus bringing forth funds and resources to aid them, bi idhnillaahu ta'ala.


Subhaanak-Allaahumma wa bi-Hamdik, Astaghfiruka wa atooboo ilaik

[Lucky]

An awesome, a must-read Article. That's what I can say all about this. It was amazing, a great article. This article clarified lots of stuff for me, now I know what the talebans are up to. Agreeing with Pr.Karimov, I just repeat his words, " Biz Tolibonlarga Omad Tilaymiz."
Cheers, :)

[Lucky]

Everybody-this is a Must-read article. Learn about Taleban from their own people who is right now in the US and came to the US in the name of Taleban and doing certain job at the UN. Do not believe to what some baseless infor-n about taleban.
Cheers, :)

[some1two]

Lucky:

" Biz Tolibonlarga Omad Tilaymiz."
You are so pathetic...

Ya na vse 100%% uveren v tom chto prezident v svoem okrujenii kroet ih(talibov) trex-etajnim matom.

[Lucky]

Some1two, do you always guess on what Pr. Karimov thinks? :) Anyways, let's do not discuss me, or how pathetic I am but the article :), stick to the point please,
Cheers, :)

[Kalashnikov]

can anyone give the link where this article was copied from?

[some1two]

Not always, sometimes...

Wanna bet? Let's see what he will say about talibs when they will try to broaden territory of their influence and will threaten our borders.
Unfortunately, I will not have a chance to know your opinion too.

By the way what was the point? I hope you don't assume I'll will read all these copy-pastes. I know in advance what are they all about:

1.Whole world will be blamed for situation in Afganistan (Britain, Russia, US, China, all neighbors).Which is partially right.

2.Talibans will be declared as a force, uniting whole country (and reader should inference: talibans are progressive) .Uniting is right.
Progressive is not applicable to word taliban.

3.It will be declared that talibs are peaceful people who don't have goals to spread fundamentalizm beyond Afganistan.
Maybe they don't, but their masters do.

What else you expect taliban emissary to say?

some1two

P.S.
Real'naya jizn' daleka ot skazok o geroyah.Pora bi priznat' eto. Nashego prezidenta razdrajayut "svoi" borodachi, chtobi on iskrenne jelal uspehov "chujim".

[nobody]

Yeah, up until now i never supported Talibans. Even, sometimes i thought that they are bad Muslims. But the questions arose on me repeatedly. If they are terrorists why Saudi Arabia support them???? If they are bad why they did destgroy all drug fields? Why..., why,... why....
Thanks to God Almighty. I did get answers here.
Heh. I wish all Brothers and Sisters in Afganistan to be Patient and ask God Almighty Support them in their Good Deeds.

With best wishes
nobody

[nobody]

I just forget wish them Good Luck.

nobody.

[Freestyler@]

<nobody>, Saudi Arabia is the first country ineterested in spreading Islam, no matter how radical or fundamental it is.

Just look at this:

"We unified the country!" - Heh, really? is this natural unification. Are people really happy from that "unification"?

"The United Nations, the United States, everybody was confused as to how to reunify that country, and nobody could do it. " - Well of course, because they even did not think about terror and violance as a measure.

They prohibited production of narcotics? - From the real-life documentary I saw huge plantations (like those of cotton in Uzbekistan). Official statistics from the documentary: 80% of drugs in the Europe comes has its roots in Afghanistan! Yeah officially they may have banned but they know that drugs is the only income for them and for the Afghanis to survive in this chaos and to buy arms.
...
==================

<Lucky> and <nobody>, so far I've been thinking that it is still possible to argue with you with common sense. But it seems you lack one.
Go on praising those illeterate barbarians. We'll see what they'll achieve.
My prediction they'll take (if not already) the country back to dark ages!

[Freestyler@]

Just two more questions to nobody and Lucky:

Will you still be wishing them luck when they invade Tajikistan or Uzbekistan?!?!
Do you also wish luck to any of the following: Hezbit-Tahrir, Nur, Vahabits?!?!

[Lucky]

Freestylerjon,
Congratulations, you failed to read the Article. I am for the spread of Islaam,which is Peace(what is wrong with that? you got scared?! :) ) But, I am against for the spread of Ignorance and Hate somth which you are propagating. From, now on I do support Taleban, because they have no bad intentions neither to Uzbekistan nor to Tajikistan or any country in the world. The UN officially admitted the Taleban destoyed all the Narcotic harvesting fields, that's enough for me, I do not need your approval, LOL. As far as their Barbarianism , I do not hesitate to call them Humble, Open minded people. If you want to know my opinion about you, leave here your email, I'll send it to you,I bet you won't recognize me :) if you promise not to post them here :) 'cause I do not wanna make big scandal on MB and start arguing on personality :) May Allah(swt) make the reltions of Uzbekistanis and Talebans beneficial to both sides, and May Allah(swt) help us reestablish our centuries long friendship.

[Lucky]

I do not know or seen anybody claiming to be Vahabit, and do not wanna make a judgment on my 20mln Saudi brs and Sisters, because the Saudis I met never called themselves Vahabit, and I do not suggest you to call them with that name, it is considered derogatory. And they were one of the nicest people I've ever met in my life. If "Wahhabits" of Saudi are so bad, how come Pr.Karimov often times exchanges with the King Of Saudi letters, and how come did he perform two rakaa' sunna prayer with the King of Saudi and performed Pilgrimage in the King's companinonship. You know very well how Saudis responded to Airplane hijackers, do not you? Sauidi Arabia ackonwldeged Uzbekistan as an Independent State long before while Russia was still considering the annexation of new Uzbekistan to New Russia, :)Wahhab is one of Allah's names, it is foolish to use this name in order to nick others with bad intentions. As far as the " Vahabits" of Uzbekistan, Nur, and Hezbut Tahrir, I am against for their destructive non-constuctive actions.
Cheers, :)

[Freestyler@]

Oh really, <Lucky>? Ne obol'shaysya, menya tvoyo mneniye obo mne ni kapel'ki (uje) ne volnuyet. (By the way you have already got my e-mail, ili pamyat' tebya zdes' toje podvela?)

Me propagating Ignorance?!?! Da ti yavno nyuh poteryal, drujok (I think you understand russian)

Otkroy poshire glaza i perechitay vnimatel'no svoi i moi posti, a potom delay vivodi, kto zdes' "propagating ignorance".

Open minded, humble - ?!?!!? Eto Taliban to!?!?! - Laughable!
===========

I voobshe pochemu ti uvilivayesh' ot moih voprosov?
Do you want to say that even if they invade Central Asian states, they will only have good intentions?!?! If so, you must be blind!

Banning narcotics is just not enough to justify all the terror taliban bring!
If I also get to speculate like you with you pseudo-appeals to humanity, I could say that banning opium plantations will only kill those starving people left in misery because of the war. Do they think that by only banning drug production they will somehow save the nation?!?!
It is just not enough!

[Freestyler@]

oops, you must be online
Thanks for the answers.

[Lucky]

Advice-Re-read the article.
BTW, I do not, usually, write personal issues to fake emails, (falonchayev@hotmail.com or smth like that) I should know whom i am addressing. Leave you real email, or email me at uzhamza@hotmail.com
Cheers, :)

[Freestyler@]

Yeah, horoshaya otmazka!

[Lucky]

I am not makin' any otmazka. Why are you so afraid to reveal your identity? do not be scared I am not gonna eat you, LOL :)
CheerS, :)

[Lucky]

BTW.,where did you get your well put and scary stories about taleban? let me know the source, wanna check the validity of your tales
Cheers, :)

[Triple anti talib]

BTW, before you have posted your "anti anti talib" posts you would have first read anti-talib references and don't ask "gde ti vzyal?".

[Freestyler@]

Haha, now listen to my otmazka:
My privacy is more important to me, then your cursing!

What the hell do you need my name for? You just wanted me to know your opinion about me. You can as well use my inbox here on this board.
I do not come here to make enemies and "propagate hate", Luckyjon. What is important to me is to share opinion and find out the truth! But not making enemies with whom I might tomorrow get to work together.

ALso, I've already told in another thread that those posts were not mine! I don't use anonymisers and rarely use other nicks!

[Freestyler@]

Oops, it's all messed up.

Sorry, <Triple anti talib> I mistook you for <Lucky>

Ignore the last paragraph in the above message

[nobody]

Hi everybody.
Freestyler are you here? Ok, anyway. I think you asked me some questions.

Will you still be wishing them luck when they invade Tajikistan or Uzbekistan?!?!
Hmmmm, Hehe. Where did you get this notion that they will invade Tajikistan or/and Uzbekistan?
May be you had talked to Taliban Leaders ? When? I dont think that you didnt. Or do you work on Special Servises(like CIA), to get such kinda information? It doesnt seem to me that you do.
OOOOO, of course, i almost forgot. You read it and/or watched it on Newspapers, on Channels Like BBC,CNN,ORT,RTR etc,etc,etc.
You like to laugh on us. But look for yourself. You are like puppet, believe to everything they told, they showed.
I have noticed here ( in West) one tendency.
If you dont Behave like Local people they consider you Barbarian. If you dont eat what they do eat they call you Animal. If you dont like what they do like you are Stupid. If you dont dress like they are, then you old mind is not developed , If you dont speak like they speak, you are fool, if you dont joke like them then you dont have a sense of humour( their JOKES tooooo STUPID like they are). If you dont see things like they see them then you are Vandal/Barbarian/Monkey whatever.
They think that only they are right. They never think that maybe they are wrong,maybe somebody who come from Afrika/Asia could be right in his/her Behave, Faith, etc,etc. No they cant and dont.
All i want to say that you are one of them (Freestyler). You read the article, but anyway you repeat your words again. Why you close your eyes to the FACTS? Why? Or may be your proud doesnt allow to you to accept the Truth? If so, get rid of your proud. (Its just advice, nothing more)
And about Hizbut tahrir, Vahhabits.
First of all. to khom you consider Vahhabits or Hizbut Tahrir. You mean the persons which are showen on Uzb. TV? Have you ever met one of them???????
As for real Vahhabists and Hizbut tahrir i never wish them good luck. Because, the Ulamas of our country( Islamic Leaders) announced them nonMuslims and proved it by their Prove. But , nobody , neithier our Ulamas, nor other Ulamas consider Talibans as nonMuslim, because, they understand that they(Talibans) are not that.
So dont compare these two groups.
Ok then. If you have any other question(s) or i need clearify something leave massage here. But for now I have a lot of stuff to do .

Lucky Brother, qalay, examsni have qilib yuribsizmi. Exams have kip tashlashingizga Omad Tilayman.

nobody.

[Lucky]

Hmm, I got sick of this,
Freestylerjon, when do we learn to converse like civilized people?! It was me, who was caring about your privacy, and offering you that suggestion. I cared about your privacy that's why did not want to address wrong person that's why I asked for your real email. I see you respect privacy as far as you yourself concerned. What about the privacy of Taleban? Are not they human being? Do not they have simple human rights not to be ridiculed by everybody? I read the message of Embassador of taleban and then yours, and now I came to conclusion his writing is far more civilized than yours, yours smell with barbarianism no offence intended, 'cause I got no other choice than expressing my feelings about you here, you did not give me your email, sorry for that. When do you, freestylerjon, start talking about something constructive. I got tired of "Hate" preaching. Here, in the US our teachers are teaching us to respect everybody irrespect of their behaviours and thoughts, like gays, nazis, KKs, satanists, demokrats, commys :) there is room for everybody. If you do not wanna talk good about Talebans talk good about yourself or smbdy you like. Do you have good words in your vocabulary at all? I never get tired of defending innocent people, as long as Allah(swt) gives me strength and power. Please, read the article Anti-Anti- Taleban posted, you can obtain similar version of that speech from UN report, about Taleban for the coming month, I guess. Please, let's respect each others' privacy and get committed to that belief.
Nobody- thanks bro, I gotta talk to you. Email me whenever possible. With regards and respect har doimgi, Comrade (BTW, Freestyler thinks I am Like Taleban, I wish that was true, so that all Talebans would be attending colleges and having a good life like I do)or Freestyler's version "Lucky Taleban", LOL
Cheers, :)

[realist]

freestyler I fully support you. Lucky,nobody and others--some of you said that you have changed your ideas about Taleban after reading the article posted above. It seems that it's very easy to make you change your thoughts. Why do you think that this article is 100% true without any falsifications or exagerrations? If he is in the US as a special envoy of Taleban it doesn't mean that he doesn't tell lies, but on the contrary he must be the biggest lier. Otherwise he would not be in America.In some parts of the article he contradicts himself,for example he says that in Afganistan it's natural that most men have beards,if it's natural then why do they need law enforcing men to have beards. In my opinion it's just as freestyler mentioned "otmazka" to kill those ethnic minorities of afganistan,in one case they stopped an ethnic uzbek who did have a beard but they killed him anyway and declared that his beard was not long enough.If they are indeed for stability in Central Asia then why did they give Juma and his men a political asylum.If they are for stability, then how can you explain their claims to our historical cities like Samarkand and Bukhoro. I don't see any good from Taleban,yes it's a fact that they are a strong power. But there are 2 types of power: power to destroy and power to build.Unfortunately,they have been only destroying so far.

[realist]

People, I have just found out that we have not only similar thoughts but similar IPs as well with freestyler,so please don't get confused we are different people.

[One]

Interesting...This site tells a different story...
http://www2.rawa.org/

[img="http://www2.rawa.org/herat3.jpg"]

[sanjar]

Freestyler,

I have no intention to control you, fella, but let's respect others' opinions as well. Self-ego makes us blind! ;-)

Take it easy.

Respect.
SJ 8)

[Freestyler-2]

http://www.hrw.org/hrw/press/1999/aug/uzbek0818.htm

"...in the basement, they regularly beat me...they burned my legs and arms. They put a [gas mask] on me and cut off the air...[and] hung me up by my hands, which they tied behind my back." "They told me they were holding my wife and daughters and threatened to rape them in front of my eyes." The other five defendants also reported that authorities threatened to rape their wives. Officers also allegedly threatened to rape Mahmudov and tormented him, describing the various ways in which they would kill him."

http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1998_hrp_report/uzbekist.html
Uzbekistan is an authoritarian state with limited civil rights



Police use sexual violence to degrade and humiliate the detainee in addition to inflicting physical harm. Several interviewees said torturers threatened to use photography to record their abuse and to use degrading photographs tocause further injury to them. Orlova described in detail how police threatened to photograph her while being sexually assaulted:

Then they said they would take a picture of me in a certain way, with one bottle inserted in the front, the other in the back. They said they would send me to prison with this picture as my passport...One man said, "We'll force you to kiss another woman between her legs, we'll grab you by the hair and force you to kiss her between the legs."

www.hrw.org/reports/2000/uzbek/Uzbekd00-03.htm
All this was accompanied by constant slurs of "bitch," "whore," and other sexually degrading insults.

[Freestyler-2]

http://205.167.142.6/~d34/historical.jpg

[Freestyler-2]

http://205.167.142.6/~d34/historical.jpg

[Freestyler-2]

Which is worse, Mat Rossiya, ili Dydya Sam?


http://63.249.218.164/images/mass4.jpg


http://63.249.218.164/images/mass5.jpg


http://63.249.218.164/images/mass3.jpg

Don't "smart bombs" steer clear of Iraqi civilians?
In 1991, we used twelve times more dumb bombs that missed their military targets than smart bombs that were accurate (10-40% were not, Int'l Herald Tribune, 3/18/91). The carnage was hidden by Pentagon censorship of the media.

Make your decision, kto v samom dele yavlyayetsya Dr.Evil...

[Freestyler-2]

Those were the images of Chechen victims now see this...who are the Terrorists and barbarians, why do not you talk about them Freestyler? Answers Freestyler: Because they are not Muslims

http://www.kavkaz.org/bomb/sled voyni/foto105.jpg

[Freestyler-2]

Those were the images of Chechen victims now see this...who are the Terrorists and barbarians, why do not you talk about them Freestyler? Answers Freestyler: Because they are not Muslims

http://www.kavkaz.org/bomb/sled voyni/foto105.jpg

[Freestyler-2]

http://www.kavkaz.org/bomb/lizo voyni1.htm



http://www.kavkaz.org/bomb/sled voyni/foto100.jpg

[Freestyler-2]

"In an act of stark cruelty, the US dominated Sanctions Committee refuses to permit Iraq to import the clean-up equipment that they desperately need to decontaminate their country of the Depleted Uranium ammunition that the US fired at them. Approximately 315 tons of DU dust was left by the use of this ammunition.The Sanctions Committee also refuses to allow the mass importation of anti-cancer treatments, which contain trace amounts of radio-isotopes, on the grounds that these constitute '...nuclear materials..' Why can't you utter a word about these innocent kids Freestyler???!!!


http://www.wakefieldcam.freeserve.co.uk/untitled04.JPG

http://www.wakefieldcam.freeserve.co.uk/untitled12.JPG

[kanzler]

Ux ti bliiiin,
bilasilarmi bolalar, nima?
Agar usha qoldirgan maqola va boshqa fikr-mikrlaring inglizchada bo'lmaganda,
o'lay agar, hammasini tushungan bo'lardim!
:-(

[nobody]

Brother Lucky. I'll email you later. Next week i have exam. I have to prepare . Good Luck Brother.

Freestyler-2 ,odamni konglini pora pora kip tashadingku :'(

Realist, although your nick is realist you are far from reality, you are also blind puppet like others.
I think i expressed my opinion last time inaccurately. I said i was confused about Talibans for a long times( but i have never confused about Russians and US and others like you have). Thats why i have never supported them. I had unanswered questions. I couldnt find a chain for whats going on. But day by day i am getting answers for these questions. Huh, change your nick to "another puppet" ( its advice) and NO OFFENCE INTENDED


Sad nobody

[some1two]

US imperialism..., Chineze imperialism..., Russian (former communistic ) imperialism ... or Saudian (halifat,fundamentalism, talibans) imperilaism...

Same thing...

US puppet, Russian puppet, Chineze puppet
Saudian puppet...

Same thing...puppet...

Nobody is proud to be Saudian puppet.

Hey, nobody, I quess you need to change your nick in order not to confuse people, and not to offence Saudian puppets.

[Freestyler@]

Vot imenno, kto zdes' chey puppet - eto yesho bol'shoy vopros!

Lucky and nobody: while one of you is accusing the west of all sorts of imperialism, the other tells about what he learns in US about respect to pluralism and personal choice.
In one thread you, Lucky, accuse the US of its degrading consumerism, in another you boast with how democratic is US, and trying to put down Britain just because it is officially a monarchy. I PERSONALLY find it what one calls HYPOCRICY!
Maybe US is more democratic then UK (maybe, I've never been to US), but believe me, me and you still have lot to learn from both of them. Apparantly, your living in democratic US has not taught you to be democratic. You still support taliban - who are in fact antipods of democracy. I find them the embodiment of totalitarian terroristic regime! Just look at what they are doing to the statues. Just have a look at those reports from RAWA, and I'm sure there are still lots of them like that out there.

Maybe taliban are muslims according to some groups, maybe. But what they are doing cannot be justified by their simply dogmatic adherence to Kuran. They now nothing about respect to other religions and cultures, as well as maybe to other ethnic minorities.
You're wrong if you think that learning Kuran by heart, putting a long beard and fighting the "kuffar" makes taliban the rightious people in the world! That's just simply not enough (if good at all from some point of view)!

They must learn to respect others, other cultures, their heritage, try somehow to provide the universally accepted human rights in Afghanistan! (If of course they still wish to gain some respect of the rest of the world and deserve the chair in the Leage of the Nations (the UN) )

To be honest you have cleared a longstanding suspicion in me. From now on I will know that Islamic fanatism, dogmatic adherence to Kuran (such as the case with taliban) do not itself guarantee respect and democracy!
These are two concepts that come independantly from religion and they come by the free will and any rational thinking (and I suspect also by good education)!

So far as these two latter concepts exist in a religion I have nothing against religion, be that Islam or any other relgion. But apparantly taliban lack those, which is why I am against them and will go on criticising them!

=========
Freestyler-2, if you'd been more careful, you would have noticed that I am against any kind terror and cruelty. I know the situation in Uzbekistn, about the tortures and so on. And I am against them! So no need to distort the picture and deviate from the main topic about taliban
Besides, there is no need to imitate my nick, use your own.
If you think that I don't respect Islam or totally aginst it, you're wrong! I am only against, fanatism, fundamentalism and extremism (I dont' care if it is religious or any other kind)

[Newman]

Excerpts from the Resolution of the Rally Protesting the Visit by an Envoy of the Taliban to the United States:

"...
·We express our extreme puzzlement over how this envoy was able to enter the United States against specific terms of the UN Resolutions imposing travel restrictions on the Taliban. What legitimate passport does this man carry, and how was he allowed to obtain an Amerivcan visa? Who provided him with tickets to fly on international carriers? Who is responsible for his movement in the United States?
·Today is the Afghan New Year(I guess: Navruz), an event celebrated by Afghans for over two thousand years. Since 1996, the Taliban militia has outlawed the traditional Afghan New Year and banned Afghans from celebrating this day -- just as they have trampled most other national traditions and human rights.
· Taliban's claims that they have improved conditions and banned poppy cultivation in the country are a shamand part of a calculated deceptive public relations tactic. The US government has also not validated the self-congratulatory reports of the UNDCP. The opium cultivation is lower mainly due to the drought that has hit most of Taliban-controlled Afghanistan."


These are just a part of the Resolution of the Rally. Who knows who is right and who is wrong?!

[Guest]

Prejde chem virajat svoe otnoshenie k nim, podumayte chto oni delayut s Buddistkimi pamyatnikami. Eta eres.

[Lucky]

Ok hello there, I am really sick all of these BS
I do not consider myself a puppet to any of those, and especially to the peole like you. I am muslim, and he is supposed to say the truth no matter what. If the US has good sides, I won't hide it. If it has bad sides I'll also speak it out. The same with any other nations or types of people. I do not care who he/she is. All I care is what he/she says and does. What he/she believes is his/her problem , none of my bisiness. If US is doing well in terms of many social cases, it means that it is doing better in the pursuit of establishing peace, justice and equality among its own people. Just a common sense, this what Islam also teachs, Tolerance, Peace, Equality, and Justice. For those who do not wanna trust me:" i do not care..." And that was not done in a day. It took the US to live through colonial, slavery, post slavery, reconstruction, re-reconstruction, jazz age, Great depression, Hoover, Roosevelt administration, post war and cold war period and nowadays America. If you compare the achievements and losses done during these time period, Taleban by far outweighs the US in good deeds. All we have to do is try to understand them and do not interfere with their business. As far as Uzbkistanis concerned, I really got sick reading human rights organizations' reports. We got clean up the ourselves first, we really stink, to outsiders. Talebans are not inserting bottle in prisoners' anus as our shovvoz ' s are doin, it is really gross and sickenin'. We gotta educate, and re-educate ourselves in terms of behaviour, and democratic and moral norms before jumping on others and instructing them how to behave. I justify what Taleban did, and I do not care what you guys think or say about me. I would do the same thing if somebody came to my country and offered the offer that they made to taleban. Whom do you value more? the rocks or humans? Do not blame the Taleban for Afghanistan, Taleban did not exist when Soviets entered and killed 1 million people in Afghanistan, and those soviets were us, keep that in mind.
I've never seen anyone so dogmatic, extremist, close minded people in my life before yoy, Freestyler, Realist, Some1two (so called). Newman-stop the game you palying with Freestyler, and stop foolin' people. Ok, I do not hesitate to say right onto your faces, what you guys up to, then I'll say what I am up to: All Taleban stuff, Statutes, Human rights, women rights is BS, but nothing else. You do not even care about them. You wanna talk about human rights? Talk about South Africa, Mexico, Russia, Argentina, Chile, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Israel, Korea, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan. The human rights are not violated in those countries less than Taleban, in Afghanistan. Russia has already killed 70,000 Chechen civilians. What you guys up to is to show ISLAM in a bad picture, and persuade others that your way is right. And according to your beliefs they shud be like you, taleban, then they are considered Civilzed.

[Lucky]

In order, to be civilzed, they gotta let all that shitty stuff happening in the WEST and join your ranks. Thanks a lot. Neither, taleban, nor the new muslim generation are gonna follow your whims, whisperings and orders. The US practices simple common sense (at least in the US), equality and tolerance towards its people to a certain extent. You guys are not tolerant at all. Becaue of your intolerance, you got Chechnya, Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq (with the Dictator at the top), Iran. If you keep on insisting on your intolerance, you'll get worse than that. It might even cost you a lot than you can imagine. You are not caring about what we are saying, and not paying attention what we are up to as a nation, civilization.At the same time you are violating our simple rights. You do not care abaout what we hold the most sacred and important in our lives, our deen, Islam, a way of life. You guys are critcizing it, thorowing trash on it. Yes, we are different, we are not like you. We do not drink Budwiser, Heinz, we do not go nightclubs. We do not wear minis. Yes, we Grow Beards, we wear Hijabs, none of your *****business. We chop off the hands of the robber, we stone to death the adulterer/ess if proven guilty and muslim, nonmuslims are not subject to this law. None of your business. We care about other beliefs, we respect them, We hold sacred your blood and wealth so that we help you when necessary and urgent. We give you the right to live the way you want, and the law that you wanna be judged with. That what the muslims in early generation did towards Christians, Jews. We were tolerant, all the time, unless they violated the simple rules first. We believe in Allah, and we spend our whole life in the obedience to Him, whoever becomes an obstacle to our obedience to Allah, we'll get rid of that person. We do not make comromise in terms of the Worship of Allah and obediesnce to Him. I know your intentions behind the curtain, to convince the people that Islam is backward and incompatible to a modern life to live with, that Islam is nothing but a trivial cultural stuff. You think wrong if you thought that way. Islam is the first thing for Muslims, nothing else, do not bring anything in exchange and think about exchanging Islam with something else. In other words, Taleban is just a "Bahona", you real intention is Assault into the Hearts of the people, spreading your way of life, which is kufr but nothing else.

[Lucky]

And here what I am up to: I am up to new Uzbek way of Democracy. Uzbek way of Democracy is very tolerant to other nations. It derives its laws from the practices, moral codes of the people of Uzbekistan. It treats all the nationalities equally. It makes Uzbek, Tajik and Russian acceptable state languages. Takes care about minorities. Makes it possible to nonmuslims to have their own schools, Courts, laws, practices, Churchs(if they believe in any religion) and communities. At the same time, Uzbek way of democracy opens up doors for the muslim majority as well. In Uzbek way of democracy, there is no priviliges given to Uzbkes over other nations, or muslims, or seculars, or democrats, priviliges to other types of beliefs. In Uzbek way of democracy state is not affiliated with any religion, dogma, ideology. There is no Slogans "Elim deb Yurtim deb yonib yashayman", the only motto acceptable is "Live for myslef, and die for myslef" State's function is not the Pope of Rome. State is supposed to protect borders, insure peace within the border. Shud not let any group hate preaching whether secular democrats, or fundamental Muslims, or any other group of people. The President shoud be elected by the majority, republican type of system also would not hurt. State should provide public education. The curriculum should consist of Social sicences, arts, sciences. No Ideology or relgious teaching should be provided. BTW there shud not be Ma'naviyat or classes like 21 asr Bosagha :) None needs them. Whoever needs an ideology, beliefs system religion he could get them from non state controlled but community based agencies, like in the US for example. Churches do not pay taxes, they are not controlled by the State. They (Mosques, Churches) do not propogate political rallies contrary to the ones in our homeland. Police, Army, Supreme Court should be under state control. And the Supreme court shud derive the laws from the majority opinion contrary to the ones in the homeland. In our country majority do not know what is going on in Oliy Majlis.( Even me, umidie, so called educated Student of Uzbekistan) The state position should be very little, the ones available should earned by passing the test like in the US. In the US if you wanna work at the State offices, all you have to do is to pass certain exams. And you'll get the job according to yuor qualification. New Boss can never kick you out unless you mess up yourself and everything is obvious that you messed up. State positions shoud be in no way a source of accumulation of power in the hands of few people, like hokimiyats in Uzbekistan compared to the States in the US. Tashkent should not order other regions what to do and when to do. Economy should be 80% private more than that would not hurt. All the State should control is the law that some firms are not hurting others by using unfair methods. State shoud not have Ideology to preach people contrary to what is happening right now back in home. As mentioned Earlier State's function should be to secure peace inside and ouside the border. There shud not be state owned TV channels excpet the one, which talks about only state laws and affairs. This is what I am up to, eqauality, peace and justice to everybody. In other words, leave the people alone what to do and how to do, and what to believe, how to believe. I am sure non of the religions or philosophical, secular, democratic, school of thoughts provide or propogate hate preaching, killing, stealing, and all other stuff. At least the ones I know: Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, even Sataninsts do not preach killing, and destroying :)
This is what I am up to,
Cheers, :)

[muslim]

Lucky is right.

Crafty folks, arent you?

Everything can be used as bahana. You guys probably rank up with jews and hindus in their usage of bahanas to make war with Muslims.

Only difference is that your forefathers were champions of Islam. Which makes you even more disgraceful in comparison.

Arright, you go on and call us "Saudi puppets". But the real fact is that you guys have been reduced to Slaves of Slavs, what your forefathers fought against to prevent happening to you, they failed in vain. You dont even have to worry about Russia or anyone else trying to colonize you anymore, because they did what they set out to do and succeededed.

[nobody]

Freestyler, some1two-->
I told you many times " ne sravnivay KOLESO s EYSOM", didnt i?
Ok, i reply your Stupid questions, Stupied compares and Stupid replys later on, after my exam , Inshalloh.
As for me , Islam is my FAITH,NOT SAUDIAN. I am not repeating what Saudians told, i am telling what my heart feels and what my brain thinks about it.
Freestyler you told that you want to talk to me in a common sense. What common sense could we have , when you close your eyes to the TRUTH, to the FACTS?????? What? Do you want the Truth? I dont think so. It seems to me that you want to convince us that YOU ARE "RIGHT".
And after all what was told here , you havent changed your opinion. Dont be cynic if you want the truth. Dont be proud if you want the truth. Read the article. If you have read it already, reread it. But this time not with your eyes, but with your brain.
Ok, i have no any more time. Just last word.
For khom , who spreads Westren BS.
THEY FU** YOU WITH SWEET WORDS
( NO OFFENCE). It was so, it is so, it will be so.

nobody.

[nobody]

I forgot something.
For your information Some1two. I am NEVER proud.

[sash]

Albata bu maqola ni o'qib Tolibonlarni butunlay yangi "YUZINI" deeymizmi ko'rdim. Haqiqatdan behabar bo'lganligimni bildim. Doim Tolibolarga nisbatan SALBIY fikrda edim. Bu maqola mening fikrimni o'zgartirdi.

Agar yo'zilganlar haqiqat bo'lsa nega dunyo bilmaydi buni va hamma ularni TERROR da ayblaydi, balkim bu maqola bilan odamlarni ko'ziga parda solib Tolibonblarni davlat boshqaruvini "Ma'qullash" maqsadlari yo'tadimi degan fikrlar ham bor.

Bu maqolaning haqiqat ligini isbotlay oladigan hech qanday DALILLAR yo'q mi?

Sash

[wolf]

it would be too naive to readily believe things written in this article. this is obviously a speech of a religios leader. those guys are very good at talking and can be really persuasive. i saw no sources, no links, no footnotes. given that, i believe some parts are credible (like the story with raped women) but i refuse to accept others as long as i cant compare them with original sources of information.
what was said about policies of us & co. is nothing new to the world - the strongest rules. remember the story of barbarians and rome?

[Freestyler@]

"We chop off the hands of the robber, we stone to death the adulterer/ess if proven guilty and muslim, nonmuslims are not subject to this law. None of your business." (Lucky)
Hah, it's like saying: we're doing bad things but it's none of you business because we're different.


We care about other beliefs, we respect them, We hold sacred your blood and wealth so that we help you when necessary and urgent. We give you the right to live the way you want, and the law that you wanna be judged with. " (Lucky)

What a crap! Chto je vi nam odoljeniye delayete, chto vi nam razreshayete pit' pivo i jit' tak kak mi hotim!?!?!?!
Pathetic! Vot v chom problema: vi dumayete chto vi pub zemli, etalon pravednosti! Da kem ti sebya voobrazil, Luckyjon?

At least I am glad you started to appreciate democracy in US. But it seems your religious fanatism does not allow you to see the many bad antidemocratic sides of taliban.
==========
"Only difference is that your forefathers were champions of Islam. Which makes you even more disgraceful in comparison." (Mahmud)

What a cheap trick! For one thing, I could also successfully argue that forefathers of our forefathers were zoroastrians, which makes our forefathers disgraceful in respect to them.
One thing you probably won't understand is that time, systems and matter change. So your appeals to our champions of Islam does not mean that we have to be also champions of Islam.

==========
"As for me , Islam is my FAITH,NOT SAUDIAN. " (nobody).
With the same luck I could say that tolerance, respect and democracy my faith, not BBC's or ORT's.
In fact it was you who started to call us puppets of the west. Hah, then we can as well call you puppet of the Saudis. It is just of no use to argue about who is whose puppet. It's just your words against ours. So let's stop this rigmarole
The simple fact is that I am for western values and you are for Saudi values.
=======

As I said, let taliban be muslims, I really don't care what religion they follow or what mashab!
The important thing to me is that they provide humanity, basic human rights, tolerance and respect to other cultures and civilisation.
Question is then why is it my business at all?!?!
The answer is, they affect me, my country, my people and, more selfishly, my interests.

For one thing: they still have not substantially cut the production of drugs, which then pass through and precipitate in Central Asia!

Second: they are harbouring extremists like Usama Bin Laden, IMU, and chechen bandits! (All of them have a very good excuse for the naive taliban. It's enough that the extremists call themselves true muslims and mention that they are fighting with infidels and immediately they are under a warm wing of taliban)

Third: They obviously have no idea of world culture history and civilisation, and which is why statues of Buddha are just rocks for them, they carry no cultural, historical or moral value to them. Taliban also ban everything that is not related to Islam (Navruz is an example). All these are what people in the world have come to call barbaric and vandal.

Fourth:Ordinary people are under such severe pressure and terror, that they now doubt if it was worse under the regime of mojahedin. I wouldnot care if they were all pushtuns like taliban themselves, but it seems they suppress uzbeks, tajiks, Iranians.


Fifth: although they've claimed to have united the country, they haven't done that by democratic rules. (However it is quite understandable: ne mojet bit' i rechi o demokratii v strane gde voyna i nerazbiriha uje dlyatsa okolo 100 let.)

Other effects on us: They distabilise the whole region thereby discouraging huge investments so much needed during this vulnerable period, as well as needed for themselves.

So can now anybady show me why should I "respect" taliban and not interfere in "their" business? Do they respect others? They are not alone in this world and their actions directly or indirectly but certainly affect us. And I dont' like what they are doing because I've got a strong belief that what they are doing is WRONG!

[Lucky]

Bor damingni ol, oqishingni oqi.
Hali yoshsan, vaqti kelib ozingni, korsatarsan. Ozbekistonning tashqi ishlar siyosat dasturini oqib chiqqin. Bizar hech bir dovlatning ichki ishlariga aralashmaymiz, sanga yoqadimi, yoqmaydimi. AQSH ning harbiylariga aerodromlarimizni ishlatishga ruxsat bermaganmizzi sababi ham, shudir. Toliblarga (Mujahidlarga) bir narsa qila olganda osha SSSR 10 yilda bir ish qilardi. 20,000 lashakaridan judo bulib, pushaymon bolib chiqib ketmadimi, 1000,000 tinch aholini oldirib.Tolobonlar san oylaganchlik ahmoq emas, bizarda (toshkentda) tashqi ishlar vazirlarimiz ushrashishganda ham ishonchlari komil bo'lishgan. Nihoyat hozir mana shu tos-topolonda Ozbekiston tinchlik saqlanib qolinishiga eng katta kafolatdir. Osha IDUni Orqasida ham Rossiyadan bolak hech kim turgani yoq. Man uchun bu katta sir ham kashfiyot ham emas. Bizarga biron bir ham haf buladigon bulsa bu toliblardan emas, ana u Tojikistonda turgan Rossiyaning harbiy bazasidandir. Nima uchun Pr. Karimov ularning yangi harbiy baza qurishiga qattiq norozilik bildirdi? San Tovuq mya bolmasang man shetta qilayotgan gaplaringni bir oylardingda, taroziga tortarding. Ozi san bizarni nimaga chaqirvotsan? Esing joyidami sani? Urush devossanmi? Maqsadga otaylik? Bitta o'q $6 turishini bilasanmi ozi? Kimga kerek urush sengami? yoki Rossiyada ishsiz otirgan Qurol zavodlarmi? Sani fikringcha butun jahon birlashadida kelib Toliblarning iniga ot qoyadi, shundoqmi? Ular qatdan turub urush qiladi, albatta ozbekistondan turib, keyin ular qaytib ketadi, kim qoladi bizar wa afghonlar. Hammasi sip silliq. Ana endi tomoshani kor keyin, san nima Afghoniston halqi sani yaxhsi koradi deb oyliysanmi? Shuncha halqini qonini tokib, endi botta otirvolib biz afghonlarga civilizatsiya olib kelvomiza deb jar solasanmi? Bir farosat aql degan narsani ishga solib oylab korgin, hozir qanday ahvolda turibmiz sen propaganda uchib nima devossan, sanga oxshagan shovvoz ertaga hukumatga kelib qolsa urush ham elon qil vorishdan qaytmaydi.Aqling joyida bolsa, san bosqacha gap qilarding. San nima Toliblarga dars oqitmoqchimisan?@! Ular kimu, san Kim? Ozbekistonga, na janjal, na urush, wa na qahramonlik kerek Ayni paytlarda. Agar, sani gapinga kirib bir ish qilinsa, Ozbekiston ikkinchi Afghanistan Bolishi kerak, shuni hohliysanmi? Ana utta Pentagon wa Kremlda otirganlar yangi budgetga harbiy harajatlarni kiritishga olazarak bolib turishibdi, san nima ularning bizarga ichi achishadi deb uyliysanmi? Bizarni eng yaqin dostlarimiz shu atrofdagi qoshnilar. Sen tovuq miyani har kuni BBC dan turib zaharalshadi, aksiga olib san ularni gapini totiday takrorlaysan. Urush kerak emas bizga, Bizga tinchlik kerak.Sanga oxshan baqiroqlarni kop kordim, qolingdan sabzi artish ham kelmasa kerek. Bir kolxozzni boshqaraolasanmi? Tushingda ham qilolmiysan. Shundoq ekan Pr.Karimov ga instruktorlik qiladigan to'tilar ham kerek emas. Ozi yaxshiroq biladi. Bor Daminggi ol, oqishingi qoyillat, hech esi kirmaydigan tirriq turidan ekansanu. Shu hom sut emmay, Suxoy moloko ichib kotta bolganmisan deyman, saning Common senseing 180 degree farq qivotti manikidan. Man A desam san, Be deysana. Maqsad gap tortishish bolsa, Uyga boraylaik, sanga bir ikkita kocha ayolini topib beraman, ularga Gapga tug'uilishgan San ga zor partnyor bolishadi. Siyosat, madaniyat, urushu tinchlik hohlagan mavzuingda qiziqarlik suhbatlar berib, kozingi ochadi qoyadi. IDU keladigon bolsak, IDU ni dumini Toliblarning ozi qirqadi, bir necha bor Ozbekistonning iltimosi bilan, IDU ning tazrini ham bergan. Hozir, ular Afghonistonda bolishsa, u ham Ozbekiston hukumatining iltimosi ila. Toliblara bizrga, IDU ni qurolsizlantirishga vada bergan, ishonaman ularga sanga emas. Civilize yourself, probably it would not hurt you.
For those interested in the source, I found something like that " New York Times", 5-6 days ago. He submitted the Letter Of taleban to W.Bush, and met with the Foreign Affairs Secretary of the US.
Cheers, :)

[muslim]

It all boils down to faith.

If its not too personal, do you mind me asking you what your religious beliefs are?

[apple]

In 1999 BBC had reported that Taliban prosecuted a gang of drug dealers (i think their hands were chopped off, sorry i can't remember the details of that report) since then i approved them. After two decades of war if someone think it's easy to build new life, they completely wrong. They must be tough to deal with that. And i believe they are on the right way, bringing order to chaos. Why UN or US not helping afgans with their problem, moreover, they are critcising their efforts. Even the Peter I of Russia and our hero Timur, and even the American father of democracy had to shed blood to achieve something. If you argue that now the times has changed, that's BS, the world is the same " the strongest rules". So i think, critics do not help anyone in Afganistan neither UN nor US nor anyone else.
My point is, instead of criticising talibs from a corner, first go there and see the problems with your own eyes. And who is doing that? Nobody. All of us (including myself)making judments without direct knowledge of the real situation.
Don't you think that Uzbekistan benefits if Afganistan unites, and peace is established there? I think Uzb should build peaceful relationship with afgans, whatever you do-- they are our neighbours. Geographically, it's shorter to get to Indian ocean through Afganistan. That's why i think cooperation is beneficial to both parties.
And about the puppets I have several questions. What you think about the uzbek soldiers who serving in Red Army and fighting in Afganistan? Don't you they were also puppets? Have you thought what afgans think about them. Can you say that they didn't hate them? What was these uzbek soldiers purpose, was it an "International duty". if it was our duty to interfere with their internal affair why don't we do again? What about their mothers? So many uzbek mothers lost their sons for nothing.

[Lucky]

Thanks, Apple I started to see people in this MB, who thinks with their brain not other part of the body as Nobody said. Keep up that way. The only way of establishing Peace right now is only through peace. We need Peace and We need to establish Peace, we need Peace as we need water and air.
Cheers, :)

[SUN6500]

Ha,ha... So if Freestyler disagrees with you, it means to you that he thinks with other part of his body ? Can you get more pathetic than that, Lucky ? I see intolerance for other opinions are really getting into you, huh ? And you were saying the Sharia law is possible, right :) What if someone disagrees with you ? Would you get angry and tell people he's going against god, and have him hang just get even with the guy ? Behold the power of hate!!! :) Hold on to your leash, pal...

[Akhee-Abdullah]

What you talking about? LOL You funny, SUN5600, use your brain not the other part, lol
Cheers, :)

[SUN6500]

Just another proof that you're biased, Lucky. Very biased. That's why your words don't make any sense :)

[freestyler]

SUN6500, thank you for standing up for me.
But just try to take it easy. Lucky is angry and apparantly his hadiths about good character did not taught him much. I just don't give a shit what he says about me.
===========================
<Mahmud>, you can ask about my "religion" from your roommate Lucky.
=============
<apple>, neither Peter I, nor Timur had a slightest idea about democracy. Feudal imperial times have long past. The world has changed in the way it tries to achieve prosperity and in treatment to humans.
Besides, I don't think that Timur is an appropriate hero (who successfully replaced Lenin) for Uzbeks. These things are just needed to awake the sense of national identity in uzbeks, the sense of past greatness. If you want, we can open another thread to dicsuus on the matter).
In general your post shows that you haven't got a clue about my views and are trying to make some groundless conclusions.
Making it clear to everyone: the soviet army, irrespective of what nationality they were, WERE the "puppets" (as you wished to put it) of the Soviet Union, the goal of which was to spread the idea of communism around the world, just like muslims are eager to spread the word of Islam, the Crhistian - Christianity, and americans - capitalism! .
If you accuse any one of the oabove in imperialism, then according to the law of equal treatment you may as well have all grounds to accuse the others!

What makes the difference is the way they conduct it: by force or by open and fair propoganda.
The Soviet Union used the force, and had to pay a dear price for it. The americans helped the mojahedin, but retreated soon after the Soviets did. So current chaos in Afghanistan is essentially a by-product of the Cold War.

Taleban is a new force, which seems to have united Afghanistan (which is a good goal by itself). But I remember words of <Lucky> when he said once that good goals can only be justified if they are achieved by the right way.
AFAIK, (BBC, private documentaries, press and even individuals who had personal contact with them) taleban are very poor, uneducated people, who know very little if anything about the other world, technology, science, cultures. They have no idea as to how to pull Afghanistan from its cuurent economic disaster and start to attract investements. And even this would be OK.
But these are the people who now govern, that's the most disturbing thing. What they are doing certainly does not help people starving and fying there from the famine. Heh, but even this would be OK, because it's their own business. But they are not only doing nothing to progress, worse than that, they've started to destroy. And this is already not the business of the Afghanistan only! These statues are part of the world heritage, neither taleban's, nor buddhist's only.
If this is not vandalism that what is?!?! Did you ask yourself why on earth they would want to destroy them, what they need it for?!?! (By the way I still have not got an answer from any of you on the question ).
The only rational explanation that I can find is that taleban are illiterate religios fanatics, intolerant to anything non-Islamic. Their banning of Navruz only proved my suspicions.

My sole purpose was to show that what taleban are doing is WRONG! All those who try to defend them are only proving that Islam is indeed that intolerant and radical, which I believe is not true.

Lucky, I am totally against force against taleban ,and you know that. In one of my previous threads I and I think <Cute> as well, proposed that the best way is to "educate" them. But, apparantly, they seem not to stand negative feedback about them (which is a great pity)! Sanctions also did not achieve much if anything good at all. :(

Keep it cool, guys

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Addition:And Democrats democracy, Seculars secularism :) Right Freestyler? I did not know that you were for against using force against Taleban, which is a good sign :) You proposed educating them. Can I know on what you want to educate them and how? :)
Cheers, :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Nawruz is the holiday of Fire Worshippers, and it is not Islamic at all. Islam forbade celebrating un-Islamic holdiays which are against the teachings of Islam and it applies only to Muslims, but did not forbade for non-Muslims that's why I agree with you that non-Muslim population of Afghanistan should have the right to celebrate Nawruz and worship their Lord Ahuramazda. Personally, I do not care, if a person wants to attend the celebration, there shud not be any problem.
Cheers, :)

[Freestyler@]

I have no good idea about "educating" them. As I've said neither punishment nor feedback gave any fruits. Taleban are really a hard case (weak students ;) ).

I suspect that Saudi Arabia has great moral influence on the taleban. They could teach some lessons of humanity and respect for the beginning.
Then some lessons in basic trade and economics would I think help those starving.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Not a bad idea, how about Uzbeks can we do it? Like cooperation ad all that stuff, like cultural exchange, huh? BTW did you get my email?

[budwiser]

Freestyler@ (Mar 21, 2001 10:48):
Just two more questions to nobody and Lucky:

Will you still be wishing them luck when they invade Tajikistan or Uzbekistan?!?!
Do you also wish luck to any of the following: Hezbit-Tahrir, Nur, Vahabits?!?!

Mr. Freestyler, and other co-ideals.
Tell me what, how many times have u guys been to Afganistan to judge how they live and what they do? If u got news from the media, then so far i havent heard anything good about Turkey for example, that doesnt mean that all of turks are killers of Armenians, that they live in streets because of the crisis and the whole turkish nation is drug dealing mass.
Second, Mr. Freestyler, u seem to be trying to act like a "wise guy" but in fact u just idiot memorised some flying words. What is the link between wahhabis, hizbuttahrir, and especially Nur? i guess u have no idea at all about them. Its just like asking, what is the difference between bed, worderope and the door, arent they made of the same thing i.e. wood?
3. Afganistan has the borders with uzbekistan in only one city, i.e. termez, while they have hundreds of kilometres of borders with turkmenistan. Dont forget that at the part of Tajik-Afgan borders, there are no talibans, but Masood and aliance. Why taliban is not invadin to turkmenistan? The population of turkmenistan is less then even uzbekistan, while they have huge lands and gas and petrol, dont u think its strabge?
cheers
wazzzzzaaaaaaappppppppp

[some1two]

Why?

Not because they don't want to invade Turkmenistan, just because it is stupid idea to fight with enemy inside, while you didn't eliminate enemy inside yet.

[some1two]

sorry, first "inside" read as " outside"

[Notice]

Hi,

I think that there is no need to teach anyone how to trade.

Anyone can trade so.

Trade must be ALLOWED, not tought.

Thanks

[Freestyler@]

Budweiser (BTW r u also Freestyler2 and Mahmud?). Firstly, to whcih of my topics were you refering?
I really don't need to know all the differences about Hezbit-Tahrir, Wahabi, Nur and others. (But trust me I know enough about them to make up my mind. I've also had opportunities to converse with members of each group). Besides, it's enough for me to know what their common things are. It's their similarity that makes me draw them to one herd.
Hope I made it clear.
(BTW, I'd be greatful if you brielfy outlined the differences between those three. and then I'll see if I really had a distorted view about them)

Take it easy

P.S. Have you yourself been to Afghanistan recently?
=======

<Notice>, you're right about allowing the trade. But what I meant was to teach about the benefits of trade to taliban who think that it is much easier to beg money intended to preserve the statues, than to raise economy.

[Cleo]

Hi guys!
I don't know if I'm the first girl in here.
I can say that it was really an interesting topic and I can say hammani uziga yarasha fikri bor,tak chto san tugri man tugri deb bumagan gaplani yozishmas, balki sekin chiroylik qilib tushuntirish kerak!(Uzr agar yigitlani ishiga aralashgan bulsam)

What u can say to this?
Smb. told me that russians podkupili talibanov.I chto oni (russians) hotyat' obratno Uzbekistan pod svoyu vlast'.Konechno zvuchit' glupo,no ya slishala ot seryoznogo cheloveka.

[Shagane]

The question is left unanswered. I have read all the threads, trying to find the source of the info. Looks like someone has got it on the mail as a forward message. :)

It's a nice article, very informative, but where is the source??

Personal opinion: We're living in the 21st century, not seventh, many things[conditions] have changed since Muhammad(saw) first heard "read."
Everyone is given a life to live, the faith is a support. :)

Nancy.

PS. We all need to go back to the "ethics" class and learn more about the principles of "Rhetoric" :)
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~honeyl/Rhetoric/index.html

[Akhee-Abdullah]

"taleban are illiterate religios fanatics"(Freestyler)
LOL, Freestyler :) Amazing I just heard from one of my brothers who have seen Sayeed Rahmatullah Hashemi the guy whose speech was posted here and look this what I found : Sayeed Rahmatullah Hashemi 24 years old, works for Taleban Government and from Afghanistan, got his education at Cambrifdge University, UK. in Political Science. Speaks English, Pushtun, and Arabic fluently. Yet, because of little information maybe I underestimated him :) , I think, now, we gotta not use the word "Illiterate Taleban." :) , as far as I know there is none among Umidies who studies or studied at Cambridge or Oxford ;) correct me if I was wrong.
Cheers, :)

[Javanmard]

Hello all,

Lucky,

as usual you use the same fanatic reasoning...Just because one guy has a degree and then went and joined the Taleban, that does not cover up the fact that the rest of this group ARE uneducated.

Also, I thought you camel Jockies were against secular education. How can you be against secular education and then applaud this guys "Kafir" degree from Cambridge?? I thought (as according to Taliban law) only Islamic teaching is acceptable....

Remember everybody, Support Ahmed Shah Masood!!!

cheers :)

[Javanmard]

Lucky (Mar 25, 2001 13:32):
Nawruz is the holiday of Fire Worshippers, and it is not Islamic at all. Islam forbade celebrating un-Islamic holdiays which are against the teachings of Islam and it applies only to Muslims, but did not forbade for non-Muslims that's why I agree with you that non-Muslim population of Afghanistan should have the right to celebrate Nawruz and worship their Lord Ahuramazda. Personally, I do not care, if a person wants to attend the celebration, there shud not be any problem.
Cheers, :)

Lucky,

You should learn to have respect for other people...especially the indigenous inhabitants of Central Asia....to be honest, from the way you talk, you sound like someone on the payroll of a Saudi group. Your job is to try and spread this cracked propaganda amongst young Uzbek Intellectuals....

Nowruz, is an ancient celebration...who are you and your boyfriends from the Dessert to tell us that this is wrong...Nowruz is a beautiful celebration of the beginning of spring and the constant cycle of life......

You should also know that Zorastrianism was the monotheisitc religon and and Zartushtis do not worship fire...Ahuramazda was the first one God...about 3000 years before Islam..........

I am not saying that They are right and Islam is wrong...but I am saying that freedom to practice ones culture is very important...and Nowruz is apart of that culture.....

You have betrayed yourself as a sell-out and a traitor to your own forefathers.....you are just another pathetic wannabe rag-head....instead of learning about barbaric desert tribals, why don't you study more about your own people..........I think it would give you more self-respect and when you start to respect yourself, you will learn to respect other people.....

Good day.....

[Akhee-Abdullah]

LOL, Javanmard. I did not say Nawruz was wrong, what I said was it has nothing to do with Islaam, 'cause some one in the board said that it was an Islamic Holiday. An advice : Do not hang around with your vannabi friends, you could become one of them since you have a constant contact with them, :) LOL, my own people? who you talkin about? Persians? Arabs?Uzbeks? I am neither of them, ;) Those, raghead Arabs are your blood brs not mine LOL, I am mongolian, ask your grannny she can tell how we "helped" Persian empire in the 13 th century, LOL. That part was a joke, do not take it serious. I started to respect you since I found out that you respect MalcomX ;)
Cheers, :)

[Javanmard]

Lucky,

If you are so "Islamic" try not to be so crude.....You are saying things that will be taken seriously....and also BTW....if you really think Persians have been so mixed with Mongols I suggest you open a history book...You'll see that Iran (modern day area) was spared the horrors the people of Samarkand and Bukhara had to go through....This is why the amount of Mongol looking people in Transoxiana are much much more than in Iran....I personally have a little Mongol blood but mixed blood makes for strong people......

Mixed culture makes for lost people.....

If you like Malcolm X so much I suggest you take a real good look at his teachings....I'll tell you one thing...he may of been muslim but he understood that modernity and education are your tickets to future prosperity......His Islam is the way to follow..because it respects all men and woman....

Something you obviously don't do......

[nobody]

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
WUAHAHAHA---->Javanmard. I like these Persian guys. They always make me to laugh.
You have betrayed yourself as a sell-out and a traitor to your own forefathers...
First of all, the question is who is called THE TRAITOR . AFAIK, THE TRAITOR is one who gives an oath but dont keep it. So, Dear Javanmard give me the evidence that WE TOOK AN OATH TO OUR FOREFATHER TO BE WIREWORSHIPPERS????????????? Of course , you cant , cauz, NO ONE of us did it. Furthermore, let's look who is real Traitor.
When God Almighty created all Human Beings, He gathered all of them together.... Then all of US TOOK THE OATH TO OBEY HIM IN OUR LIFES. Sorry , i dont remember in what chapter and verse it is written in Holy Qur'an, but it is in it.( At least it is in Hadith collection of Imam Bukhari (r.a)) Please , guys, who knows it Post it here, because ,i cant search for Qur'an just now. May be you( Javanmard) know it very well.
So, who is Traitor. The one who Didn't keep his oath which he took before the God, or the one who Hadn't followed his wireworshipper forefather???????????
Or may be , you dont believe to my words about OUR OATH BEFORE GOD ALMIGHTY. Ok. I give you another FACT. Who was the Father all Human Being. Yes, Odam Ato. So, was he true believer to ALLAH (JJ) or was he follower of Zardusht????? Ok, You are not convinced i think.
May be , i'd better tell you about the first Forefathers of Turks and Persians.
As you know, only few people remained alive with Noah(as) or the "Second Odam Ato" after Flooding. He had three sons. Hom(as) (the Father of all arabic nations), Som(as) (the Father of all Persians) and Yofas(as) ( the Father of all Turkic nations). So, Noah (as) gave an instruction to his sons to apart and began their own life seperately................
I am not going to tell you how Turks came into being. All i want to say that, all of three sons of Noah (as) was True believers of ALLAH (JJ), not Ahura and Mazda.
In Uzbek we have saying like this: Look to this one, who has no trousers. He is laughing on whom, who has tired trousers. Something like this, sorry i am bad in translation.(So, first of all find your "trousers", then we will speak with you who is traitor, who are not.)

nobody

[nobody]

So , i didnt tell yet, why these Persian guys make me always to laugh. I put it a bit later time. Because before it i want to talk about next funny statement of our DEAR Javanmard.
You should also know that Zorastrianism was the monotheisitc religon and and Zartushtis do not worship fire...Ahuramazda was the first one God...about 3000 years before Islam........

WUAHAHAHA, so you say that Ahura and Mazda were( or was) one God. Heh, but our sources tell us that they were two sons of the King of Gods. One resembling Good side ( I think it was Ahura, correct me if i am wrong) and another resembling( or representing ) Bad side. ( like in Hollywood movies, White side and Black side).
I believe to our historians, not to your poor guy. Because they are not biased like you. They just translated Avesto into modern Uzbek, thats all.
So, poor guy you think that "Zartushtis do not worship to fire..... ". Hmmmmm, go to my place of birth ( Horazm) , i show you their palces of worshipping. If you will go to here, we will catch two rabbits up with one shoot. First, we will clearify the Truth about Zartushtis , Second we can have a new stream of tourists after viziting that places( because, as i c, you are good in advertising, we can use your skills).
So many silly mistakes in one or two statement. Huh, where did you get the notion that Zorastrianism is older than Islam. Islam is the first relegion in Earth and is Destinated to be the last Religion in the Earth. I think , i needn't to continue it, cauz as a guy who lives in Arabic country and Furthermore being Highly Educated , you know it better than me, who is "uneducated" :-D :-D