Some of the restrictions imposed by Taliban on women in Afgh

[Triple anti talib]

The following list offers only an abbreviated glimpse of the hellish lives Afghan women are forced to lead under the Taliban, and can not begin to reflect the depth of female deprivations and sufferings. Taliban treat women worse than they treat animals. In fact, even as Taliban declare the keeping of caged birds and animals illegal, they imprison Afghan women within the four walls of their own houses. Women have no importance in Taliban eyes unless they are occupied producing children, satisfying male sexual needs or attending to the drudgery of daily housework. Jehadi fundamentalists such as Gulbaddin, Rabbani, Masood, Sayyaf, Khalili, Akbari, Mazari and their co-criminal Dostum have committed the most treacherous and filthy crimes against Afghan women. And as more areas come under Taliban control, even if the number of rapes and murders perpetrated against women falls, Taliban restrictions --comparable to those from the middle ages-- will continue to kill the spirit of our people while depriving them of a humane existence. We consider Taliban more treacherous and ignorant than Jehadis. According to our people, "Jehadis were killing us with guns and swords but Taliban are killing us with cotton."



Taliban restrictions and mistreatment of women include the:

1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.)

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors."

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden".

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only").

27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.


Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has:

- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.

- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.

- Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic.

- Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday.

- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.

- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.

- Ordered all People to choose Islamic names for them if their names are not Islamic .

- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.

- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.

- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.

- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.

- Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping.

- Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.

- Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed.

- Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.

[Lucky]

What a BS. Please,Stop posting the propoganda of certain groups. I would suggest these ignorant people read an article by Anti-Anti-Taliban so that they would stop their baseless accuations and false tales about taleban, BTW the Speaker on the side of taleban made this speech very recently, not a week ago, at the University of Southern California, before that at the UN office in New York city.
Cheers, :)

[Triple anti talib]

Lucky,

let readers judge what's BS and what's not.
Nobody is asking you not to paste your "propaganda". Right?

[Lucky]

I got no propoganda at all. And the infor that was posted is not the opinion of some dinky people who have never been to Afghanistan. I am not asking you to stop posting. What I am asking you is to stop spreading BS about taleban. If the stuff you saying is baseless and no International Agency whether UN or any other thing approves the validity and accurateness of yours, then it would be better if you stopped confusing and fooling people. The validity of the information that somebody posted under the topic Real Story of Taleban can be easily approved and that was recently Printed in major US newspaper. If you are really eager, you may call the UN and check it. That's what I am saying. Why do you base your opinion on certain groups of peoples' opinion and do not want to listen to what others are saying? I would not care if the information that you posted were accurate, but they are not accurate. And as I posted in my earlier message that's all BS about taleban. I can't stand if somebody speaks falsehood about others and demand, "let readers judge what's BS and what's not" this is not fair at all. I am not asking you to believe in what somebody or I am saying. What I am asking you is to post what the UN officers think about Taleban, if you are so kind and nice person. I want simple truth about taleban, not the trash and BS. This is not something to be judged by people when have no clue about the validity of what you writing here, it is clear, it is only two of those black or white. And what I am saying is what you posting is definietly Black, read the mentioned article, and check its validity, you'll probably understand. Would you like if I kept on accusing you of something that you have never done, like murder? How would you like if I said to everybody, that you raped a young girl and murdered her in order to hide your crime? What would you do? of course, you would sue and take me to the court. And I do not want somebody coming and suing you in a Court, for the same reason. I am just warning you not to do it, it is not ethical and not for your best interest what you doing now.
Cheers, :)

[Freestyler@]

Very sad indeed!

Heh, but why am I not surprised?

I never expected anything humane from those half-literate barbaric taliban. (I've seen a documentary recently about taliban by an independent traveller who managed to film somehow life in Afghanistan. Seems like what you listed above ,<antitaliban>, is nothing but truth. Those vandals do not even allow filming, the excuse being that filming is antiIslamic. No surprise that BBC fled from Afghanistan)

<Lucky>, stop your hypocricy and be man to admit that you ARE defending those ignorant, tyrant taliban, although you say sometimes they are not right! If they are nto right stop defending them! You are just like one of them.

Indeed it is up to readers to decide what is BS and what is not on this board. Chto je, ti sebya voobrazil zdes' policiyey nravov?!?!

[SUN6500]

Freestyler, thank for posting this article. Hopefully it will somehow "enlighten" our Taliban supporters.

[Freestyler@]

SUN6500, thanks went to the wrong adress:)

The first post was not mine. I never use anonymisers

[SUN6500]

Oops, my mistake. I want to Thank "Tripple anti talib" for posting this article.
And wish some our "Muslim Brothers" stop taking dope and take a look at harsh reality that might be coming this spring to our country and stop supporting Taliban for their support of IMU.

[muslim]

Enlighten? Waaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaahooooooo!

damn, yous real funny, all you jiggas out there! Quit your daydreaming and WAKE UP!

Every "muslim" nation that has people like you guys running the show has turned out to be an ABSOLUTE joke!

Just name one secular "muslim" nation that is considered strong these days. Just ONE.

Reasons why Western European nations are considered well off, because:

1) There is no fighting going on over there.
2) America pretty much rebuilt their economy after WWII.
3) Western Europe has never been colonized, Save Spain & a bit of France. (And the muslim colonizers ACTUALLY helped out the society advance instead of raping it). When Western Europe and Russia colonized the muslim regions, they RAPED it.

West was able to rape the muslim world for these following reasons:

1) Discovery of New World and the new riches
2) Islam was lazily practiced by the leaders of Islam. Therefore incompetent rulers arose, who only cared for themselves.
3) Intrigues. Whores for the West started breaking up the infrastructure from inside. YES ATATURK ALSO.

So now WEST is on the top.
Even SO, Western Civilization is endowed with new social problems. For ONE example, how often would you hear about a kid shooting up schools in lets say, anywhere, but for U.S.?

And before you guys start opening ur yaps, lemme remind u that there is NO Islamic nation on Earth right now, and Taliban are the first to attempt to start one. I can then understand why the West and their whores hate the Taliban so much.

[muslim]

and Triple Anti-Talib

Why dont u actually read the entire transcript of the Taliban representative that was posted on the message board before you start going off on your RAWA crusade?

Most of the things they complain about is trivial.
Perhaps you should look into the wisdom of such decrees.

For example, stoning adulterers. First of all, there is a trial that RAWA conveniently failed to mention. Then if the accused is convicted, then both man and woman accused in adultery is stoned. Do they deserve anything less? Aldulters ruin the lives of countless families, with kids growing up psychologically damaged. You have sympathy for those jerks? Come on, give me the reasoning for THAT?

Technology and material wealth is advancing. But society is falling backwards and backwards. Much of the Earth has been destroyed, polluted, and disfigured in the name of capitalism and materialism. People behave worse than shaytan himself. Kids kill parents, parents kill kids.... Old folks are tossed aside, Peoples personal rights are violated time after time, and the police can't even stop most of them!

And this is just AMERICA alone! Comon dudes, I know. I have lived here like practically all my life. Of course there are plenty of good souls in this country, but there is more than enough bad elements in this society that ensures that this society is going down. Like if there is one spoiled apple in the basket, pretty soon all apples will become spoiled also. And at the rate Western society is going, bad apples multiply too fast for all of them to be picked out.

[SUN6500]

By all means Mr.Ghaznevi, you're and people like you are the biggest joke here. I don't know what your nationality is, and if you somehow or anyhow related to Uzbekistan, but there is something called thread to our nation that is coming out of Afghanistan if you know ? There is something called IMU that is trying to make inroads into Uzbekistan that actually controls the most part of narco traffic trespassing Central Asia. There is also something called a potential full scale war that might happen in Central Asia, and Uzbekistan being its hotbed. So before you make any statements please be acquianted with the region well enough not to make fool out of youself on this board.
As far the transcript of Taliban representative, I've read his statement, and it is nothing more than a crocodile tears coming out of the guy who is harboring someone who killed innocent people in Dar-Es-Salam and Nairobi.
And finally speaking of so called "West and their whores" as you politely pointed out, don't you be forgetting that you're living in this country that you're calling a whore. Which makes you a person whois making a livelihood in a whore country. If you hate west so much, why don't you make like tree and leave to Afghanistan ?

"Just name one secular "muslim" nation that is considered strong these days. Just ONE."

--Huh, just name one Muslim country that it is ? If there is none, do you see a repressive regime of Taliban of being one? If you think it is, why don't you have it for your lunch and leave Uzbekistan out of it.
"Western society is going, bad apples multiply too fast for all of them to be picked out"
-- Oh, yeah....Taliban is in a forefront of progress making significant advances in genetics, physics, computer sciense and space technology. Sober up dude, they're nothing more than a bunch of guys in power and have absolutely no difference than Chilean regime in 70s.

[sm1]

Mahmud Ghaznevi (Mar 22, 2001 14:43):
and Triple Anti-Talib

To Mahmud Ghaznevi: So what are u suggesting? let's burn everything and come back to stone age? People were dying that time too, including old people.

Or u think if u killed women who commit adultery that will solve all problems? if u hand hurts would u cut it off? it is not treating the cause.

Or u think there is no adulteries in muslim countries? there is a lot. U think muslims do not commit adultiries ? they do. in fact no world religion encourage adultery but yet it is present everywhere.

U think that girl that did not have access to education, will be better off then girl whose parents comitted adultry? or kid who watched his/her parent to be shot will not be psychologically damaged? Who is more jerk the one who slept with somebody's else wife, or the one who killed somebody for whatever the reason is?

They claim to be muslims, but in Uzbekistan there are more drug addicts right now, then it was before talibans came. all they are imported from afganistan, if talibans are destroying fields, how come
we have more drug addicts?

Or u think kids are not killing their parents in other countries? if u don't like technology why are u using internet. there is porn there.
u r capable of making choice and that's what it all about.

talibans remind me communists. different ideology the same methods. if u spent ur entire life in U.S. u have not seen anything. i saw people like u here, who have everything, bs all the time, having no idea what they are talking about. if u r so supportive of talibans, why don't u move there? U.S kofirs' country after all.

[muslim]

Ok "enlightened" ones. Here goes. In no particular order.

1) I never said I hate U.S. READ before reacting. I said that America has many good souls, Kafir or otherwise. However, American society is spiraling downwards.

2) I never said that we should go back to the stone age, or I never said that technology sucks. Quit assuming things. I said that stop putting so much emphasis on material wealth over humanity.

3) I never said that the current "muslim" states are free of social problems. Hell no. Thats why we need to bring Islam back.

4) Killers and adulterers should both be put out of their miserable lives.

5) Girls should definetely be educated. Everyone should. I believe schools have opened up in many places where taliban rule has STABILIZED.

6) America is not the whore. America is Pimp Daddy.

7) Taliban recently destroyed the poppy fields... Ask the UN.
so that means either the drugs are stored in some wherehouses in Uzbekistan or you guys are getting the supplies from someplace else. I dont know whats your source on all this news... but if its ur government, then im gonna be ROTFL.

8) Since I am talking to representatives of a nation that suppresses the Best of All Religions and Way of Life, and promotes immorality, who should I believe, Karimov's henchmen, or the ghazis?

9) I guess you could say I come from Hindustan, From a village that was founded as a garrison for Ghaznevid soldiers and their families. My father and mother from the same community and are of Turkish lineage, along with some Pashtun parentage as well. My ties to Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and rest of Turkestan is simply it is my ancestrial homeland, which you guys have suceeded in ruining in such a short time. Therefore I have as much right to speak out on these issues as u foolios do.

10) My only beef with you guys is that u guys have a serious lack of appreciation of Islam and of what it is and represents and teaches, or else you wouldnt be promoting secularism over Islam.

11) Note that "Islamic terrorism" only really surfaced maybe 50 years ago or less. Ever ask yourself why?

12) Oh, yeah....Taliban is in a forefront of progress making significant advances in genetics, physics, computer sciense and space technology.

Haha. Like you guys have done much either. And to top it off Afghanistan is going throught yet another civil war. What did you expect? A space program to be set up?

13) Is there proof that bin Laden did any of the bombings? Who was once conveniently a hero for the CIA when fighting Pimp daddy Russia and his flock sheeps. and now the most wanted man? Something tells me its not that simple. You see, I have a hard time believing anybody who backs a criminal state of Israel making all sorts of security bahanas for them, and then turns around and bombs impoverished nations of Iraq, Sudan, and Afghanistan in the name of human rights.

My question to you: I may be wrong, but you guys dont belong to the MSAs in your school, am i right? probably the TSAs but not MSA.
all my questions will be answered with a simple yes or no.

- MG

"je me souviens", and a whole lot more than you.

[muslim]

Mahmud Ghaznevi (Mar 23, 2001 17:21):
Ok "enlightened" ones. Here goes. In no particular order.

1) I never said I hate U.S. READ before reacting. I said that America has many good souls, Kafir or otherwise. However, American society is spiraling downwards.

2) I never said that we should go back to the stone age, or I never said that technology sucks. Quit assuming things. I said that stop putting so much emphasis on material wealth over humanity.

3) I never said that the current "muslim" states are free of social problems. Hell no. Thats why we need to bring Islam back.

4) Killers and adulterers should both be put out of their miserable lives.

5) Girls should definetely be educated. Everyone should. I believe schools have opened up in many places where taliban rule has STABILIZED.

6) America is not the whore. America is Pimp Daddy.

7) Taliban recently destroyed the poppy fields... Ask the UN.
so that means either the drugs are stored in some wherehouses in Uzbekistan or you guys are getting the supplies from someplace else. I dont know whats your source on all this news... but if its ur government, then im gonna be ROTFL.

8) Since I am talking to representatives of a nation that suppresses the Best of All Religions and Way of Life, and promotes immorality, who should I believe, Karimov's henchmen, or the ghazis?

9) I guess you could say I come from Hindustan, From a village that was founded as a garrison for Ghaznevid soldiers and their families. My father and mother from the same community and are of Turkish lineage, along with some Pashtun parentage as well. My ties to Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and rest of Turkestan is simply it is my ancestrial homeland, which you guys have suceeded in ruining in such a short time. Therefore I have as much right to speak out on these issues as u foolios do.

10) My only beef with you guys is that u guys have a serious lack of appreciation of Islam and of what it is and represents and teaches, or else you wouldnt be promoting secularism over Islam.

11) Note that "Islamic terrorism" only really surfaced maybe 50 years ago or less. Ever ask yourself why?

12) Oh, yeah....Taliban is in a forefront of progress making significant advances in genetics, physics, computer sciense and space technology.

Haha. Like you guys have done much either. And to top it off Afghanistan is going throught yet another civil war. What did you expect? A space program to be set up?

13) Is there real proof or just theories that bin Laden did any of the bombings? I mean if someone confessed, he could have been tortured before hand to lie. You country is pretty good at that.

Bin Laden, who was once conveniently a hero for the CIA when fighting Pimp daddy Russia and his flock of baa-baa sheeps, and now the most wanted man? Something tells me its not that simple. You see, I have a hard time believing anybody who backs a criminal state of Israel making all sorts of security bahanas for them, and then turns around and bombs impoverished nations of Iraq, Sudan, and Afghanistan in the name of human rights.

My question to you: I may be wrong, but you guys dont belong to the MSAs in your school, am i right? probably the TSAs but not MSA.
all my questions will be answered with a simple yes or no.

- MG

"je me souviens", and a whole lot more than you.

[SUN6500]

No shit, Sherlock ? Well, if US is a pimp daddy, don't you think it should be put out of its misery as well ? The issue is not US backing Israel but Taliban backing IMU who is trying to get into our country.

"However, American society is spiraling downwards"

--Huh, name me a country that is not ? Afghanistan where they paint windows black so people wouldn't see outside ? Or is it Saudi Arabia which should treat all muslims equal but apparently some muslims there are more "equal" than others ? Duh!


"I never said that we should go back to the stone age"

--But subconciously you are, since you're arguing for stoning adulterers to death and backing Taliban that are putting women into chadors locking them up in their homes without sufficient access to education, work or equal rights with men. No matter what the criminal is, he/she should be given a sufficient access to a defense lawyer. Besides you haven't given life to that person and you shouldn't be assuming God's role in taking this person's life for this person is to be judged by God only and definetely not by you.

"I never said that the current "muslim" states are free of social problems. Hell no. Thats why we need to bring Islam back."

--Huh, it'll work like in Afghanistan ? You gotta be a total nut-cake to say that, unless otherwise you like what is going on there! If you do, I suggest you to give up everything you have here and move it out there. Can you do Mahmud ? Do you have guts to do it ? 100 percent out of 100 you will chicken-out, pal. So don't make hero out of yourself and defend fiends whom you don't wish to joing physically while supporting them morally. You'll be dead in a month b'se they'll probably accuse you being a spy and put you to death while you cannot defend youself because their decision is paramount and pluralism of thoughts are not tolerated. Welcome to authoritarianism 1.01, pal.

"Girls should definetely be educated. Everyone should. I believe schools have opened up in many places where taliban rule has STABILIZED"

-- Huh, you believe ?? Do you, Mahmud ? Well, I think I should really appreciate your sense of optimism. Yeah, right... you know as well as I do that they actually closed schools for girls and have NEVER reopened it. Why don't you tell them your opinion, Mahmud ? Literally, why don't you fly over there and tell mulla Omar that he is wrong, that schools for girls should be reopened ? I wonder what he's going to say to you ? Quite likely the only thing the will fly back to "Pimp Daddy" would be a little sack of Mahmud Ghaznevi's parts, tightly put together.

"Taliban recently destroyed the poppy fields... Ask the UN"

--Yeah, right... And all these streams of heroin is coming from Mars. Wake up, dude. What the hell is happening then accross the border every freakin' day in Uzbek Afghan borderline ? How about Tajik Afghan border ? Or how about routes via Turkmenistan ? Destroyed all the poppy fields, you make me laugh, pal. You're really funny! How come all that Afghani drugs are ending up in Moscow and Rotterdam en route to UK and US ?

"Since I am talking to representatives of a nation that suppresses the Best of All Religions and Way of Life, and promotes immorality, who should I believe, Karimov's henchmen, or the ghazis?"

--Well, have you been to Tashkent ? If you haven't I suggest you to fly over there and compare the living standards between Kabul and Tashkent, and then honestly tell me who is better off. Besides, I think to this question Lucky will answer the best. Ask him.

--Continiued -->

[SUN6500]

<-- (Continiued from above)

"My ties to Afghanistan, Uzbekistan and rest of Turkestan is simply it is my ancestrial homeland, which you guys have suceeded in ruining in such a short time."

--Oh, yeah ? We succeeded to ruin it ? Well, by all means Mr.Ghaznevi who is quite very distantly related to Central Asia, we do not have disease like measles, rubella and other unlike you have. Besides, you haven't lived here so stop freakin' judging it, allright ? Unlike your remote village, our women do have an access to education and work right side by side with men. Almost equal opportunity, eh ? And what the hell you meant by ruining it ? Following Taliban footstep would be a solution ? Well, Professor I suggest you to camp out elsewhere b'se your ideas are quite foreign to us.

"My only beef with you guys is that u guys have a serious lack of appreciation of Islam and of what it is and represents and teaches, or else you wouldnt be promoting secularism over Islam"

-- The issue here is not Islam. The issue here is Taliban. If you think that Taliban is an Islamic country that is implementing Islamic rules correctly than I do have a very big problem with it. What is here being discussed is a threat of Taliban to our country ( and not yours) and a danger of a full-scale war. If you want to discuss religion, you should point your e-mail reader to something like alt.religion or something.

"Haha. Like you guys have done much either. And to top it off Afghanistan is going throught yet another civil war. What did you expect? A space program to be set up?"

-- Well believe or not we have done something. Every major rocket that Russia launches comes out of Baikonur. Every satellite that gets deployed on space uses solar panels Chirchik instrumental factory. Every space capsule that Russia puts together uses insulation manufactured in Uzbekistan. So, get the facts, or skip it. Therefore stop telling that West going bust because in comparison to Talibanistic Afghanistan it is light years ahead. Besides, it was Taliban who destroyed modern buildings and got rid of scientists and their books claiming that it is a heresi. What a joke! And you expect them ever to be developed ? On what ? On Pistachios or Dope ?

"Is there real proof or just theories that bin Laden did any of the bombings? I mean if someone confessed, he could have been tortured before hand to lie. You country is pretty good at that."

-- Yeah, there is proof, and you know it. There are also countless video tapes where he calls to destroy Americans wherever they see. Americans! So no matter who the person is, women, elderly or a child should be destroyed as long as they're American in passport. So it could be Nancy from Mobile, AL, a mother of three, who could get stabbed around the corner for just being an American. And speaking of people who have been captured (unlike in Talib Afghanistan) do have an access to a lawyer, a lawyer they can choose! Again, we're talking about Taliban's threat to Uzbekistan and their guilt for supporting Juma Namanghani for making terrorist acts as well as invasion plans against Uzbekistan. They generously provide financial support as well as training grounds in their territory with Pakistani instructors.

"My question to you: I may be wrong, but you guys dont belong to the MSAs in your school, am i right? "

-- You are wrong and you know it. Speaking of school, I am done with it long time ago.

Best of luck in your future endeavors!

[SUN6500]

Here is another news, read it on...

ТАЛИБЫ НЕ ПОДПУСКАЮТ АФГАНСКИХ ЖЕНЩИН К ВЫДАЧЕ ХЛЕБА ОТ ООН
MIGnews.com. 17:44:56

Руководители движения "Талибан" запретили привлекать афганских женщин к работе гуманитарных организаций ООН по выдаче хлеба в Кабуле.
Ранее местные женщины помогали составлять списки афганского населения, которому по решению Всемирной продовольственной программы отпускали хлеб по цене, составляющей 10% от его стоимости. Талибы категорически отвергли подобный план, заявляя, что женщины, в соответствии с законами шариата, не имеют права свободно ходить по улицам и разговаривать с незнакомыми мужчинами. Таким образом, семьи этих женщин остались без хлеба, которым с ними расплачивались за работу.
В настоящее время пятая часть населения афганской столицы (300 тыс. человек) получает дешевый хлеб. Однако в списки особо нуждающихся не включены десятки тысяч вновь прибывших беженцев.
Представитель Всемирной продовольственной программы Питер Гусенс ранее заявил, что если талибы запретят привлекать к работе по распределению хлеба женщин-афганок, эта организация может в мае приостановить свою работу в Кабуле.

[sm1]

SUN, u just said what i was going to say. I met alot of people like this kid. They suffer from substantial lack of education and their head full of b.s.
And MG I never said that u hate U.S. READ TOO, dolban. And if u so close to Uzbekistan read this: Men MSAning vise presidenti bulaman, kerak bulsa spicok bor.

[Lucky]

LOL, SUN5600, where did you get all those BS about Taleban? Lemme know if possible I wanna check the source :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

What Would Buddha Say to the Taliban?
by Enver Masud, 18 March 2001, The Wisdom Fund
WASHINGTON, DC--The Taliban's destruction of the statues of Buddha at Bamiyan, Afghanistan, have provoked near universal condemnation. One voice, however, has not been heard--that of Buddha himself.
What would Buddha say having witnessed 13 centuries of Muslim rule in Afghanistan during which centuries of cultural heritage survived? Yet in just 21 years, since the Russian invasion of 1979, "thousands of Hellenistic, Iranian and Indian artifacts from Afghanistan's many-layered past have been smuggled out to the voracious and amoral Western art market."--Robert Hughes, "Buddha Bashing," TIME, March 19, 2001.

What would Buddha say having witnessed a decade of Soviet occupation, the expulsion, by the courageous Afghans, of the mighty Soviet superpower--which led to its demise, and the fall of the Berlin Wall at the cost of 1.5 million Afghans killed, another million maimed, six million who migrated because of Russian brutalities (out of a total population of 18 million), and many thousands who continue to be maimed or killed by the land mines left behind by the Soviets?

What would Buddha say to the U.S. that not only turned its back on the Afghans following these sacrifices, but continues to fuel a civil war against the Taliban which has brought a large measure of security to the 90 percent of Afghanistan which it controls, is reported to have wiped out virtually all opium production (roughly 75 percent of the world's supply), but sees peace and progress thwarted by the U.S.?

What would Buddha say to the U.S. which in the mid-1990s embargoed arms to the Bosnian Muslims, and a world that stood by and watched the genocide of the Bosnians, and the destruction of over 8000 mosques and priceless treasures from Bosnia's National Museum, by Christian Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats?

What would Buddha say to NATO, which on its 50th anniversary, desperate for a new mission following the break up of the Soviet Union, and to protect its credibility, under the guise of saving Kosovo's Muslims, bombed military and civilian targets in Yugoslavia?

What would Buddha say to the U.S. which demonizes the Taliban because it seeks control of Caspian oil, enemies to justify defense spending--the U.S. share of the world's military spending at about 35 percent is now substantially higher than during the Cold War, and nearly three times that of all its potential adversaries combined--and to deter others from building an oil pipeline through Afghanistan?

What would Buddha say to the Chinese, Russians and Indians who fear the Taliban's support for oppressed Muslims in the Chinese province of Xinjiang, the former Soviet republic of Chechnya, and in the disputed state of Kashmir?

What would Buddha say to the world's powers for their determination to protect the statues at Bamiyan, while they do little to prevent the destruction of Palestinian homes, and the killing and wounding of thousands of Palestinians, armed only with stones, and a few rifles and automatic weapons, against the most powerful state, and nuclear power, in the Middle East--Israel?

What would Buddha say to a "world [which] seems to care more about the
destruction of two stone statues, which--let's be honest--hardly anyone had ever heard of until ten days ago, than about 100,000 refugees who have been starving and freezing to death near Herat a few hundred miles away from them?"--"The Afghan iconoclasts," The Economist, March 10, 2001.

Born in 563 B.C. in India, Siddharta Gautama, the Buddha, was deeply moved by the suffering of his people, and at age 29 gave up his kingdom and a life of luxury to seek enlightenment. When asked, "Are you a saint? Are you an angel? Are you a god? What are you?" answered, "I am awake." His answer became his title, for this is what Buddha means.

Buddha might ask the world, "Are you awake?" To the Taliban he might say, "I have failed to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people. Forgive me."

I am just wondering why every body knows about the Buddha, and none talks about 8000 Masjids? Or do you guys have a double standard of equality? Of course, you do...
Cheers, :)

[sm1]

Prichem tut budda, ne ya ne Sun ne MG ego ne mentionalyi, kakiye dobl standardi?
and if destruction for the destruction is the only answer, should then all Native Americans kill present population of U.S.? OR should we kill Russians for collonaization CA? OR should Germans be killed because of WWII? I can continue forever. Oko za oko iz not the answer, that's why people don't practice it anymore.

[sm1]

and for the sources, i know drug problem from my own observation. u go to capital every time u see them growing, no source needed for that, it is real live example.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

We are not calling for oko za oko. What we are saying is instead of victimizing muslims all the time, if you are truthful talk about the harms made to the Muslims. If A Buddha is blown up everybody screams, "He Bastard taleban, Barbarian", but if "8000 Masjids are blown up" none of you even make a lip service. Of course , it is a double standard, but nothing else. For ex, I' ve never seen you posting even a single post abut 400 dead in palestine, another 400 dead 2 weeks ago in Afghanistan , Another 600 dead kids in Afghanistan. Do you have a HEART, or is it A ROCK? Uyalmisysanmi shu hulqinga? All you want is not THE TRUTH but to make argument that Taleban are bad guys. Whom are you trying to fool? Me? not me, but yourself, go walk away your piece of the way, borey damingni ol.
Cheers, :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

You think I am gonna trust you? LOL. Whom shud I trust you or UN :) Please do not say, "UN lies"
Cheers, :)

[SUN6500]

Huh Lucky, please get me the source where it says that Taliban has completely wiped out the poppy fields. As far as the source goes, here it is:

http://www.ytro.ru/topnews.shtml

Besides, the point here is that Taliban is harboring IMU. It is not a secret. That's why Uzbekistan is trying to get IMU leaders off the Taliban Administration and its been quite disappointing so far. As far as wishing it a luck, I don't Uzbekistan would give a horses ass to what is going to happen to Afghanistan as long as it wouldn't export terrorism to its soil. But the fact is IMU is still within Afghanistan soil which makes Taliban responsible for all IMU incursions into Uzbekistan. IMU is trying to break into our country. By taking sides with Taliban you're indirectly in support of IMU.

[SUN6500]

Funny that you mentioned about children dying in Afghanistan. But whom to blame ? The fact is UN is trying to get food into Afghanistan but it is hard distribute it and it is getting blocked by Taliban regime itself. Say you have a widow, a mother of four. So she lost her husband for Taliban's cause, but now, she can't work. If she can't work, she can't feed the kids! Now, the hell would you suggest she earn for her living along for her kids ? She can't work according to Sharia law (as Taliban proclaimed which you so eagerly support), she can't get any government subsidies (because Afghanistan is in Dire Straits), she can't get any outside help from NGO's (because Taliban wouldn't let it). So the only she can do, is to die. And this is the regime you're supporting. Please, be advised that majority of male population has been forcibly conscripted to fight for Taliban and there is no people to distribute incoming WESTERN aid (Yeah, the same West that it dispises, and calls kafirs). By far, the biggest kafir in Afghanistan is Taliban, which is causing hundreds to die, discriminate women, even muslims (shiites <-- they're human, you know. They breathe the same air as you and I do).

[Akhee-Abdullah]

What you said here was 95% BS, sorry for my language.
Uzbekistan supports Taleban, because Taleban kicked IMU's ASS when your MAT Rossiya kept on helping IMU. Where the heck IMU crosses the border with any notice of Russian Soldiers, LOL? Are you kiddin? It is not secret that IMU gets its support from Russia, and Ahmad Shah Ma'sud.And Who supports Ma'sud, Mat Rossiya not Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan borders with Afghanistan only in Termiz, my city, which borders with Taleban. If the Taleban were really on hurting Uzbekistan that would happen in 1998. And who borders with Tajikistan on Afghan side? Of course, Ma'sud. And who is patrolling the border? Russians. And why the Heck IMU does not come through Taleban, first to kashkadarya, then from that to heartland Uzbekistan? It is easier, if they come that way, they can Blow up Power plant in Kashkadarya,Chemical Plant, and Oil refinery Plant cut off the energy source and get Samarkand. But you know very well that the nergy back bone of Uzbekistan is Kashkadarya, and Bukhara. You know why IMU can't come through that route? Because that part is protected. Not by Uzbek or Turkmen at any rates by Russian soldiers. There is no border, nothing.But by Taleban, stupid!!! Taleban, is really helping us these days, and we are in turn ready to give them energy, electricity. That's why IMU is using the last refuge, mountains of Hissar. Before accusing me of smth why the heck you do not ask yourself? Who is right now serving his country, me or you? If I did not love my people, I would not be here in the US or in this chat arguing with you. Think before speaking, I never thought you were such an idiot to call me the one who supports IMU. I hope the people who send me here knew who I was, otherwise they must be pulling their hairs, what you think? It is always people like you, make big noise, when it comes to action you run away. It was always the case. I do blame IMU, but not only IMU everybody including your and my parents (I cant blame you and myslef becuase we were too young those days, at least me, if not you). Where the heck they (IMU) come from? Do not say from Afghanistan. It was us in general who raised those people. Those oeople grew up with us, drank from the same river and ate Osh from the same plate, and slept under the sam e blanket. Who produced such a people, Afghans? Wrong, it is us... Why the heck you blaming Taleban then? Was Taleban there in Namangan in 1992? or Tajikistan in 1992-93 Wars? Heck no Taleban came into existence in 1996. Most of those guys, I mean IMU, were trained by our own hands to blow up Bridges, houses, military bases in Israel. Dear Mat Rossiya Trained Hesbollah, Xamas all that stuff where? In our Dear Ryazan of course, where else? And these guys did not end up going to Israel, because soviet union collapsed, and they went home to Uzbekistan, hehe. What about Namangani, highly trained Killer, served in Desant in Afghanistan for Moder Russia then Spetsnaz of Soviet Union. Who produced those people? Blame yourself, Ozingdan Chiqqan baloga qayga borasan davoga. Ozing qazigan chohga ozing yiqilasan. If you need further infor. I'll go to the Terrorism section of my University Library and refer to you couple dozen books where it explains how our Mat Rossiya produced "Muslim Terrorists." Do you want? Next time do not name me with that shit, I am not threatening, I am just asking you kindly.
Cheers, :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

The fact is UN is trying to get food into Afghanistan but it is hard distribute it and it is getting blocked by Taliban regime itself Na munchali tovuq miya bomasang, esing bormi sani ozi? Nima Tolibonlar ozlgini farzandlariga UN degan kelayotgan oziq ovqatlarni Block qivottimi? Kayfing youg'mi ish qilib nima devotganingni bilvotsanmi ozi? UN Afghonistonning 95% egallagan Tolibonlarga har qanaqa yordamni toxtatgan. Yordam paqat Ahmad Shah Mau'sudga borvotti, urushvotgan oppozitsiya uchun, boshqa maqsaddamas, Tolibonlar osha ketvotgan oziq ovqatlarni ushlab qovotti ilojlari yetganda, va ochidan o'lvotgan kishilarga tarqatvotti. Anau refer qilgan siteingni ochmadimam oqimadimam RU dedimi provakatsiya degani, bor damingni ol. Bring me smth like UN.ORG or US.GOV next time alright, ? and you cant ... Read New York Times, since you are in New York.
Cheers, :)

[SUN6500]

First and foremost, if you start insulting me with "stupid", I'll promise, I'll start doing the same. And if I'll starting the adequate foul language it ain't going to be pretty here, understand ? Now, getting to your comments, here is what I think:

1.Speaking of Russian soldiers, no one is saying that they're not corrupt of Russian FSB is allowing IMU in. This is not a secret. But the training grounds provided to IMU are provided by Taliban, and they're located in Qunduz and Baghlan, you should admit it, because you know. Also, you mentioned about Uzbekistan not being in border with Talib Afghanistan, you're wrong. It does border with Talib Afghanistan, take a look at your map again. Uzbekistan trying to normalize its relationship with Taliban opened up minimal a trade route and expressed its desire to resume rail links as situation progresses. So, before calling anyone "stupid" try to get real data so you won't end being what you said. IMU doesn't come from Kashkadarya because a border with it is reinforced with 3 motorized division back to back. Going through Kashkadarya would be meeting Uzbek Army head on and does constitute a good strategic planning because being small in number they won't be able to accomplish anything big. Speaking of energy source, that you were referring as being a focal point for Samarkand, the city does have a Navoi electric plant to fall back.
So, turns out, Taliban is not helping us after all. If they would have been helping us, they would have compeletely got rid off training camps on its territory. Now, base camp of Taliban is in Afghanistan that is under Talibs control, while some "daughter" camps are in Tajikistan's Tavildara region.
Now, speaking your such pompous justification about helping your country, I am positive there will be time when you will help.
Now, with Taliban, what are you trying to say about blaming me and yourself and stuff ? What is your point ? Yes IMU is a group that came out of Uzbekistan and the only thing I know that Taliban is supporting it. I see when you don't want to accept facts and see the link. You say that our issues with IMU and not with Taliban but the fact is Taliban is supporting IMU. Uzbekistan gov-t itself made declarations about training grounds of IMU in Qunduz region constantly visited and supported by Taliban.

"Most of those guys, I mean IMU, were trained by our own hands to blow up Bridges, houses, military bases in Israel..."

--Where you got that fact ? I didn't know that Uzbekistan secret service was traininig our Uzbek guys to carry out sabotage operations in Israel and neither was KGB during Soviet era. The only thing I know that during Soviet era, people like Namangani were working in cotton fields and not getting trained on plastic explosives and definetely not against Israel. So what if Namangani was a paratrooper ? It doesn't mean anything. It means a guy knows how to jump shute that's all.

Now, getting back to what I think about you is what I actually see. I didn't make biased judgements, and didn't pull the data out of my ass, so please be considered. You gave me the impression of IMU supporter, no one else. I made judgements based on you replies and arguments. So whatever you say, I am always open to reconsider my judgement but it is my judgement I rule only. Different people may different opinions and I expressed mine. So, stay cool, don't give into your emotions.

[SUN6500]

Avvalombor, tovuqmiya deb ayblashni o'rniga faktga asoslanib gapirish lozim. Hozirgacha man faktga asoslanib gapirib kelyapman. Tepada Rus gazetasidan qoldirgan maqola aynan shu faktni bildiradi. Agar istasang, keyinchilikda san uchun maxsus NY Times gazetasidan parchalar yuborishim mumkin. Ammo....san shundan so'ng "NY Times Sionistlarning gazestasi, unga ishonmayman" deb ham o'z so'zingda turishing mumkin. Shunday ekan, man sani fikringni o'zgartirishga urinib ham o'tirmayman. Istaganingcha hur, bu sani ishing.
Yordam Ahmad Shoh Ma'sudga boryatgani yo'q chunki unga etishish uchun Tojikiston orqali helicopterda uchub borish kerak (they don't have a landing strip for an aircraft). Shunday ekan fakt, faktligicha qoladi, lekin san fikringni o'zgartirasanmi yo'qmi bu sani ishing.

[SUN6500]

Here is specifically for Lucky's discretion. You asked for non-Russian so here it is:

http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/mar98/19_19_078.html

WOMEN: Taleban Discrimination Blocks U.N. Aid Work In Afghanistan

By Dipankar De Sarkar

LONDON, Mar 13 (IPS) - The only woman heading a United Nations office in Afghanistan says the Taleban regime's hardline anti- women policies are hampering her efforts to deliver food aid to women in the embattled Asian country.
Daniela Owen is in charge of the World Food Programme (WFP) sub- office in Herat, near Afghanistan's border with Iran. Her three women staff are not able to go into the office, however, because a Taleban edict forbids any women, other than those employed in the health sector, to work in offices.

The rest must stay at home, the Islamic fundamentalist regime has ruled.

''The Taleban are not letting our staff monitor our projects,'' Owen told IPS in an interview in London.

When the Taleban advised WFP that its female staff could no longer go to the office, the organisation responded by adjusting its modus operandi so that they could operate from their homes.

Monitoring is essential to the success of the WFP's efforts to deliver badly-needed food to Afghan households, particularly tracking women-only training and bakery projects, which provide bread at subsidized prices.

Staff are also meant to determine what new projects are needed and conduct house-to-house surveys to gather data on the food situation in Afghanistan. The North-central regions of the country are already suffering from acute food shortages and aid agencies have warned of the possibility of a long-term disaster.

The Taleban ruling has isolated WFP's women staff because they are only able to stay in touch with the office by telephone and radio and through visits from non-Afghan women colleagues.

And when they leave home, they are in constant fear of being harassed, being pulled even from the supposed protection of their U.N. vehicles and beaten, arrested and even imprisoned simply for appearing in public. Female WPF staff also carry the additional burden of knowing that they may be harming the safety of their families.

Owen was in Rome recently to receive a WFP International Women's Day Award on behalf of the staff in Afghanistan, who have been commended ''for their commitment to improving the lives of women.''

''In the Western part of Afghanistan, we are working as a feeding programme really, not a training programme,'' Owen said.

To do such a task effectively, the agency needs to hire more women -- preferably Afghan women who can speak the local Pushtu language.

''But we cannot because of the edict -- so we are trapped in a Catch-22 situation,'' Owen said.

''It is a problem finding women to work under these conditions. There is pressure from the community - neighbours will tell you 'you will go to jail'. So there is cultural pressure. And nobody knows who is a Taleban informer and who is not,'' she added.

In addition, most women are married and that means they have the extended family to think of in case they take employment.

''In Herat, it's not physical but psychological harassment,'' Owen said.

Since gaining power, the Taleban militia has placed Afghan women under virtual house arrest, decreeing that women and girls cannot attend school or take jobs; they cannot leave home unless accompanied by a husband, father, brother or son; and that women cannot be treated by male doctors.

Recently, WFP considered recruiting Pushtu-speaking women from neighbouring Pakistan to do the job.

''But the Taleban responded by ruling that any Muslim woman working anywhere in Afghanistan must be accompanied by her family,'' Owen said, adding that Afghanistan is a non-family posting for WFP.

The Taleban rulings come at a time when food shortages have gripped much of the country, including Herat city where, Owen said, disparities between wealthy merchants and workers on inadequate, daily wages have exacerbated an already precarious situation.

''There are no factories and no city jobs. So in the urban areas, large sections are just above the poverty line,'' she said.

Owen conceded that the issue of delivering food aid to countries such as Afghanistan -- at the risk of helping prop up internationally-isolated regimes like the Taleban -- ''is going to become a dilemma for us in the future.''

''We are feeding the hungry poor and, in areas that are food insecure, we need to be there. Are we not going to be there or should we compromise ourselves to feed the poor?

''The feeling is that if you have to bend a bit to get things done, then it's worth it. Otherwise we could get into a mindset that is a bit like the Taleban itself,'' she said.

''WFP is increasingly tying food aid with human rights considerations. So these are questions that do concern us and we come up against them every day,'' Owen added.

WFP's experience in Afghanistan is shared by the non governmental development agency, Oxfam, which has now stopped working in the Kabul area after being told their projects could not involve women.

Tricia O'Rourke of Oxfam said though the agency believed in engaging the Taleban in a ''constructive dialogue in order to influence their policies'', the agency felt it could no longer continue working with women in local communities and rural areas as long as the Taleban edict was in place.

Instead, the only work in which it is currently engaged is an urban water supply project in Kabul because the engineering work requires only men.

O'Rourke said that the Taleban ruling meant many households in Kabul -- now headed by women because of male casualties resulting from years of war and conflict -- were worse off.

''These households are in poverty and we cannot support the women,'' she added. (END/IPS/DDS/PD/98)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

The first the thing I wanna tell you is, I live on the border with Afghans, fool. Re-read it. I am from Termiz and know those areas better than you :) There is no border In Kashakadarya and Turkmenistan and border between Turkmenistan and Afghnistan. Basically all they have to do is cross it. Yes there is a big army in kashkadarya, and there are guys who are guarding the GRES in Kashkadarya. Who the ****you think IMU is little dinky guys?! I said they are highly trained killers, not the guys directly from high school. And they do not fight with you face to face, they like diversiya. I did not say Uzbekistan trained those guys, Soviyet Union trained them, trained guys were mainly from Central Asia, for many reasons.I'll refer you to the books, if you wanna read. I called with name when you first called with that shit. What kinda facts you talkin' about? All the stuff you talkin is from newspapers, or secondhand people :) Assossiz gapirgandan ko'ra salgina oylab reserch qimiysanmi, Ozbekiston hukumati, Toliblar nima uchun kelishganini. Sani Maqasading Toliblarni yomonlashmi, yoki haqiqatni topishmi?! Manku ancha bilib qoldim. Agar osha Tolibonlar Musulmon emas, qanaqadir boshqa bir dovlat bolganida, hech nomini ham tilga omasding. Bu anuqku.
Cheers, :)

[freestyler]

Just replying Lucky's post, I haven't read the other ones.
Where did you find that IMU was trained by the Soviet Union? Did they exist already during USSR? Could you show the sources, please?

I agree with you Lucky, when you said that Russia is using the IMU for its policy to keep Uzbekistan close ot itself, but that is only indirectly, through exagerating their threat to us. And I also agree that IMU could not have past the border with Afghanistan without collaboration of the Northern Aliance. I think they are in good relations with both taleban and the mojahedin.

[SUN6500]

I don't really care if you live in Termiz or in Alaska. As far as I know IMU WAS NOT trained by Soviet Union, you have absolutely no proof of that, none! Yes, I know IMU are highly trained, and trained they were not by us but by Pakistani/Arab Instructors. Ok, go ahead refer me to books, and if you can quote them. The facts I am talking about are media that you read every day, and the ones I posted for your discretion. O'ylab research "qimiyman" deganing avvalombor o'zingga taa'luq. Hammaga ayonki O'zbekiston Tolibon bilan IMUning boshlig'larini O'zbekistonga berilishi to'g'risida gaplashgan edi, ammo natija chiqmadi. Ha, Tolibonning Islomga hech qanday aloqasi yo'q. Ular o'zligicha o'zligini Islom davlati deb e'lon qilishgan. Men ularni Islom davlati deb tanimayman.

"Agar osha Tolibonlar Musulmon emas, qanaqadir boshqa bir dovlat bolganida, hech nomini ham tilga omasding. Bu anuqku"

-- Bu sani fikring, o'zigni fikringda turaver, mani ishim yo'q.

NOTE: For the last time, stop your abusive language, or I'll start abusing it as well, this is not a joke.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

I'll stop using it when you apologize for that shit you called me with, if you got a sense of respect towards others. LOL, I did not say IMU was trained by Soviet Union,LOL, stop making assumptions, why do not you ask me if do not understand? The guys who later made IMU,I guess in 1994, were the members of the then trained Terrorist organization. I'll give you the source when the Library opnes,which is tomorrow, we are on Spring break now. Freestyler if you think IMU's danger is being exaggerated you underestimeted their capacity. You must remeber the panick during summer...WE gotta be on guard...
Cheers, :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Since you/SUN5600/ questioned Sharia couple of times although it was not the topic, then let me tell you smth. First of all,: "I am not an expert in Sharia or at any rates in Islaam. Because, I do not dedicate most of my time for studying Islaam another reason , I am quite new to this religion and I myself have a lots of stuff to calrify in this religion. However, I got here somth which might benefit you and most of us, please read and enjoy if any questions reply. I know that you are open minded fella :) just keep on bein' that way, thanks:
INTERNATIONAL SEMINAR ON ISLAM LED BY DIRECTOR-GENERAL UNESCO, AMADOU-MAHTAR M'BOW. Paris, 4 December 1980 Printed by the UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural organization, Imprimerie des Presses Universitaires de France, Vendome.

...Everyone agreed to the setting up of a city-state; and the Prophet of Islam, the wise and humane man whose idea it was, was chosen by all to be its head. This city-state justifies us in speaking of tolerance. The Prophet was illiterate; and it is an extraordinary thought that the first written constitution to be promulgated by a head of state should have emanated from this illiterate man. Neither the Romans, the Greeks, the Hidus, the Chinese or anyone anywhere in the world before Islam had ever thought of promulgating a written constitution for a state, though there had been laws, such as the code of Hammurabi. The text of constitution of Medina has come down to us complete. I shall mention only one or two points from this document, which fifty-two clauses covering all the requirements of the then state. The text states that there was to be freedom of conscience for each community and also mutual tolerance. The Jews were to have their religion, the Muslims theirs and so on. The implication of mutual tolerance was that everyone was to be not only free in respect of the dogma and practice of religion but also free to comply the laws of the community to which it belonged. Jews were to be judged by Jewish law, Christians by Christians and so on. Another very interesting point is that this constitution introduces some highly modern conceptions, e.g. social insurance. Surprising though it may there are definitely references to it in a dozen or so clauses… Social insurance had been set up on a pyramidal basis, so that if one group did not have enough money to honor its obligation another insurance group had to come to its assistance. In the last resort the state became the debtor… At a somewhat later date some non-Muslim citizens were captured by the enemy. The then Caliph, Umar ibn Abdul Aziz sent an order to the governor of the province concerned to the effect that the ransom for everybody, even to non-Muslims, was to be paid from the public purse… “There shall be no compulsion religious matters.” (Koran 2:256) Thus from the Prophet’s time until the present day non-Muslim subjects never experienced difficulties in the Islamic State. To be a citizen of the state it was not necessary to be a Muslim. If Muslim rebelled he received no quarter, but was punished in accordance with his crime (basically equal rights for all privileges for none)…Thus Islam has become a religion of continuity and universality: continuity since Adam, and universality covering all parts of the world in all periods… The point is that the object of this religion was not to dominate or exploit individuals or peoples but to create a climate of peace for all mankind. It showed the way for later periods: and today we have not reached the level of the rules set forth by the Koran fourteen centuries ago…This decentralization of state laws, according to the religions of the citizens of the state, has always been a reality in Islam. Alas, even in the twentieth century and even Under UNESCO’s roof some others have not yet reached that point… The Emperor Constant II sent secret messengers to the Christians in the Islamic State saying: “Here is the God-given opportunity: rise up against your government, and I also will at the same time dispatch an army…” The Christian population of the Islamic state replied as follows: “The enemies of our religion are preferable to you” The point was that the freedom the Christians enjoyed was such that they had never known anything like that, even under the Christian government…Under Islamic policy, on the other hand, complete cultural, religious and legal independence was given to every section of population, and this was something they had never previously known under their own government.” And I hope from now on yu are gonna change your position toards Islam and as well as Sharia.
Cheers, :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

To Mahmud:
I got no clear Idea about Freestyler's beliefs right now, but I read him saying somth like this, "...I am not true Muslim..." Do you help me with that Freestyler, apologize if I misunderstood you :). According Uzbekchilik every uzbek in Uzbekistan is a Muslim :) , but according to Islam not everybody, From that I can deduce, so Freestyler could be one of those according to Uzbekchilik, am I right Freestyler?
Cheers, :)

[SUN6500]

Why should I apologize ? This is my opinion of you and I have formed my opinion based on your arguments. You may like it, or may not like it. But calling person a 'fool', 'idiot' is deragotory, so if anyone should apologize it, it should be you. Now, to reiterate, I am right now witholding, but be forewarned, I will retailiate if won't stop. Now, the issue is not Sharia but Taliban's implementation and interpretation of it against women.Wheather you like it or not it is what it is that is happening in Afghanistan besides your off-topic of code of Hammurabi which has absolutely no relevance to the issue discussed.

" .... I did not say Uzbekistan trained those guys, Soviyet Union trained them"

" ... I did not say IMU was trained by Soviet Union,LOL, stop making assumptions"

Now, do I see Lucky suffering from dual personality disorder or does he have a 1K buffer that can't hold any data within ?

"...And I hope from now on yu are gonna change your position toards Islam and as well as Sharia."

-- And I hope you stop deviating from topic and discuss it accordingly without branching off to completely different issues.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

LOL, SUN5600, it was also my opinion calling you "fool", "Stupid", and I aslo consider the shit you called me with derogatory.The guys who later made IMU,I guess in 1994, were the members of the then trained Terrorist organization This is how clarified in my previuos message for those who do not have a sense of logic, LOL. First, Soviyet Union Collapsed in 1991, and IMU was organized after that how Soviyet Union could train them?! It does not make sense, hehe You should have looked at the context, DUDE :) I guess it was you who mentioned Sharia and all that stuff, LOL,
Cheers, :)

[SUN6500]

Well, then. Eye for an eye, right ?

"... trained Terrorist organization "

You just pointed out above twice contradicting yourself, why are you still trying to make sense out of it ? The entire context was read and contradicting statements by you pointed out, and still you trying to save face! So pathetic! O'zbeklar bunaqani TIRRAQI-BUZOQ deb atashadi. Before you make your nervous sneakering try to read the comments posted by you and make out the difference.

" .... I did not say Uzbekistan trained those guys, Soviyet Union trained them" (IMU Assumed)

" ... I did not say IMU was trained by Soviet Union,LOL, stop making assumptions" (IMU Clearly Stated)

How obvious can one get in contradicting ??

"... how Soviyet Union could train them?!"

-- Ask youself, buddy, you said it.

"I guess it was you who mentioned Sharia nad all that stuff, LOL"

--Mentioning Sharia does not mean to deviate from the main topic branching off to completely different issues.

"Afandi, bog'da nima qilib o'tiribsiz" deyishsa
"Xotininga nimaga kalish olib bermading" deydi :) :) :) <--Bunaqangi tirraqilikni birinchi ko'rishim.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

If I meant what you claiming I would said I meant this, I cant uderstand why you clinging on this? Do you like disgracing others? This is not the first time, may times, even if you remeber in our previous topics. This is your problem, all of yours :) . You always assume, istead of assuming and jumping why do not you ask politely, "Lucky is this what you meant? are you trying to say this?", I'll clarify it as much as I can. Erkak digan munchalik mayda gap bomiydide, O'gil bolamisan Ozi?! Nima endi har gal tushuntirish xati yozvotishim shartmi?
Cheers, :)

[SUN6500]

Erkak kishi degan o'z gapida turadi, og'ayni-chalish, darchasi past bo'lib bo'zchining mokisiday dam u erga dam bu erga sakramaydi.

Omad.

[sm1]

"[quote]Lucky (Mar 24, 2001 19:23):
We are not calling for oko za oko. What we are saying is instead of victimizing muslims all the time, if you are truthful talk about the harms made to the Muslims. If A Buddha is blown up everybody screams, "He Bastard taleban, Barbarian", but if "8000 Masjids are blown up" none of you even make a lip service. Of course , it is a double standard, but nothing else. "

I don't consider Talibans as Muslims. Budha and 8000 Masjids are not relevant here, topic is not Islam, but Talibans, not harms made to Muslims but TALIBANS!!!! don't steer away from topic.

"For ex, I' ve never seen you posting even a single post abut 400 dead in palestine, another 400 dead 2 weeks ago in Afghanistan , Another 600 dead kids in Afghanistan. "
Afganistan is country suffering from civil war, from embargo. these 400 dead are Muslims, refuges most probably, died because of talibans in the first place, somebody who hurms muslims is kofir.

"Do you have a HEART, or is it A ROCK? Uyalmisysanmi shu hulqinga? All you want is not THE TRUTH but to make argument that Taleban are bad guys. Whom are you trying to fool? Me? not me, but yourself, go walk away your piece of the way, borey damingni ol."

Who r u to judge me? uyalmisnami? nimadan uaylaman? why do u thiink u have the truth? just becuase u found couple of websites of dobtful nature and completely biasied information does nto mean u know the ttruth. if fact nobody here knows the truth, exept people in Agfanistan. and as for drugs go to Tashkent and c for uself. u r baised, kerak bulsa uzing dam ol dolban
Cheers, :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Kotta Rahmat SM1, barcha complimentlar uchun. Ammo ularga javob topishni lozim topmadim. I c couple of you guys calling taleban kaffirs, Astaghfirallah. Who gave you the right to make takfeer/calling others kaffir unless Talebans confess themselves that they are kaffirs? Have you opened their Hearts? Kaffir is a person who does not believe in La ilaha Il Allah Muhammadan Rasoolallah. None of the actions takes them out of the folds of Islam, as long as they believe in Shahada. For the takfeer makers, I suggest to consider about their beliefs and find out who is really dearer to Allah. Ofd course this is a Muslim issue, :) Another thing the very action of destroying Statutes is a dearer to Allah than the action that you are doing against Taleban.All of the prophets were against idols. Ibrahim alayhissalam, Muhammad alayhissalati wassalam fought against idolworship. Your version of Islam sounds really odd to me :)I c from your tone, 8000 masjids just passes by your mouth, hah? Is that what can I expect from a Believer? 8000 Masjid means at least 8000 dead and 8000 Quran burned, thanks.
Cheers, :)

[SUN6500]

Lucky if you could, can you explain what do you mean by

"... None of the actions takes them out of the folds of Islam, as long as they believe in Shahada" ?
-- I really want to know what you meant!

"... Is that what can I epect from a Believer? 8000 Masjid means at least 8000 dead and 8000 Quran burned, thanks"

-- well, may know who bombarded the rest of masjids after Soviets left Afghanistan? Wasn't Hikmatyar fighting Alliance, and Alliance fighting Taliban using howitzers, 120mm mine launchers, "Grad" mulitiple rocket launchers and tanks ? May I also why they would (both of the sides) use masjids as a point of continiuous fire, so eventually they had to be rooted out with artillery ? Well don't you think if they're deeply religious they have to somehow respect those masjids so they wouldn't draw fire on them? Well, of course buidings would get destroyed because its a war! Ho'l va quruq baravar yonadi, urushda.
One last thing, Lucky, before you start selecting people to Muslims and Muslim-nots, you should for one thing think about the notion that perhaps it is up to God to decide if a person is Muslim or not ? Don't you being pre-judgemental by telling people if a person is Muslim or not ? One thing is true, interpreting things literally and praying five times a day does make a person Muslim unless it is supported by his/hers actions. So far in my opinion Taliban has failed miserably.

Good Luck.
Bekorga Mullaning aytganini qil, qilganini qilma deb aytishmagan.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

The Summit of Evil in this World is Disbelief
"Good And Evil" By Sh. M. Al-Sha`rawi


Many non-Muslims to whom we talk about religion have a hard time understanding why they could be punished in the Hereafter if they are kind, honest, just etc. with other fellow humans. Their problem is that they do not realize that Allah ta`aalaa may forgive killing of a hundred people, but has promised not to forgive taking anyone as a partner to Him. Ey bani Odam! Yer yuzini to'ldiradigan darajada ko'p gunohlar bilan huzurimga kelsang, shirk keltirmaganing holda Mening huzurimga kelsang, yer yuzini to'ldirajak qadar bir maghfirat bilan qarshi olib, seni avf etgayman (Termiziy)" Qulim menga shirk keltirmasa, huzurimga bir dunyo gunoh bilan kelsa ham, uni bir dunyo Maghfirat bilan qarshi olaman.(Tabaronoiy) They do not realize that their crime against their Creator is much worse than any crime against creation that they can imagine. So their being kind and just towards the creation is of no use if they show arrogance, heedlessness, denial and ungratefulness towards the Lord of the worlds, His Law, His Books, His Prophets etc..

AlHamdulillaah, I have found a written piece that discusses the greatness of the crime of kufr, may Allah ta`aalaa protect us from it.

The Summit of Evil in this World is Disbelief

"Good And Evil" By Sh. M. Al-Sha`rawi

The summit of evil in this world is disbelief. There is no greater evilto be found than that because there is no sin grater than disbelief. An unbeliever has committed something which causes Allah to exclude him from His mercy. That is why Allah Almighty says: "Allah does not forgive anything being made a partner with Him but He forgives apart from that to anyone He wills." (4:48 )

Thus even if someone who enters into disbelief were to be given the entire world, it would be evil for him, because however much he has, the enjoyment of this world is very little. However much wealth, rank, or power he has it will leave him. That is why Allah Almighty says: "The worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject and do not believe." (8:55)

Why are they the worst of beasts? We know that beasts have no intellect. They cannot think or understand. Nonetheless, they carry out their appointed tasks in full. They carry loads and perform all that is asked of them or for which they were created. They are ruled by instinct. When food is brought they eat what they need and then stop eating. If you try to tempt them with more food they refuse it, no matter what it is, because the rule of instinct is a true one which only lets the animal have what it needs. On the other hand, you find man, who has been given choice, stuffing his belly with food. Someone tells him, "You did not try this sweet," or "You have never tasted this variety," and he does not respect the fact that Allah has forbidden us excess with regard to food. He fills his stomach until he is unable to move. The human species directs itself to sensual gratification and not simply to self-preservation.

Allah Almighty has honored man with intellect so that he can reflect on His signs in existence and come to believe that this universe has a Creator who brings things into existence. But instead of that, he uses his intellect as a means to disbelief and heresy and so it distances him from Allah and makes him disobedient to Allah. So it is as if he repudiates this great honour which Allah has given him. Indeed, he directs it to the opposite of its appointed task and in doing so he is lower than a beast which crawls on the earth on all fours.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Praise be to Allaah.

According to Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, the basic principle is that the issue of who will go to Paradise and who will go to Hell is the matter of ‘aqeedah based on what is said in the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and there is no room for reasoning or ijtihaad in this matter.

If the Qur’aan or Sunnah says that a specific person will be in Paradise or Hell, we bear witness to that. At the same time we hope that those who do good will go to Paradise and fear that those who do bad will go to Hell, but Allaah knows best how people will end up.

The issue of saying who will go to Paradise or Hell may be divided into two categories:

General statements, which have to do with people’s qualities, such as saying, “Whoever associates anything with Allaah in an act of major shirk is a kaafir who is beyond the pale of Islam, and will be in Hell.”

Similarly we say that whoever fasts Ramadaan out of faith and in the hope of receiving reward will be forgiven his previous and future sins, and that an acceptable Hajj has no other reward but Paradise. There are many such statements in the Qur’aan and saheeh Sunnah.

If a person asks, “Will the one who calls on anything other than Allaah and seeks the help of anyone but Allaah be in Paradise or Hell?” we would say that he is a kaafir who will be in Hell, if he is shown clear evidence that he is wrong but he stills persists and dies believing that.

If it were said, Whoever does Hajj then does not commit any obscene or immoral act, and dies after his Hajj, for example, what will his fate be? We would say that he is in Paradise. Or the person whose last words in this life are Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah will be in Paradise, and so on.

All of this has to do with people’s qualities and does not apply to any specific, named person.

Specific statements referring to people by name, stating that a particular person will be in Paradise or in Hell. This is not permissible except in cases where Allaah or His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have informed us of it.

Whoever Allaah or His Messenger have mentioned by name and stated that they will be in Paradise are definitely among the people of Paradise, such as the ten who were given the good news of Paradise (al-‘asharah al-mubashsharah), foremost among whom are the four Khulafa’, Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq, ‘Umar, ‘Uthmaan and ‘Ali, may Allaah be pleased with them.

Those who the Qur’aan and Sunnah mention by name and state that they will be in Hell are definitely among the people of Hell, such as Abu Lahab and his wife, Abu Taalib, ‘Amr ibn Lahiy, and others.

We ask Allaah to make us among the people of Paradise by His Grace and Mercy. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

You are right SUN5600, Believing that Allah alone has the right to legislate for mankind in all aspects of life and religion. Allah said, what translated means, "And Allah judges, there is none to put back His judgment." [13:41] And, "The decision (al-hukm) is only for Allah." [6:57] The right to legislate is for Allah alone. Halal (permissible) is what Allah made Halal, Haram (impermissible) is what Allah made Haram, the religion, the Law, the way to follow, the Path and the faith to embrace, are all for Allah alone to decide. Allaah says: "The judgement is His, and to Him you shall return." (28:88 ) Allaah says: "Verily, Allaah commands you to deliver the trust committed to you to their due owners, and that when you judge between people, to judge with justice."(4:58 ) And with regards to the subjects, He said: "O you who believe, obey Allaah and obey His Messenger, and the people in authority among you. And if you dispute over anything, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger if you really believe in Allaah and the Last Day, that is best in terms of consequences." (4:59) And He says: "And he who does not rule by what Allaah sent down, it is they who are the rebellious." (5:47) So basically when a Judge makes decsion he is not judging for Allah (swt) because Allah (swt) Judges everything at the end, what he is doing is obeying Allah (swt) in the ayat which says And He says: "And he who does not rule by what Allaah sent down, it is they who are the rebellious." (5:47) Verily, Allaah commands you to deliver the trust committed to you to their due owners, and that when you judge between people, to judge with justice."(4:58 ) So they rule according to what Allah (swt) down the Sharia, the Quran and Sunnah of prophet Muhammad (saw).
Last point, everybody is equal before sharia law. If a muslim is found to be a killer and it is porven. And if the people whose relatives were killed demand capital punishment instead of getting financial fine, the person will be executed, however, we can't call him kaffir. His action was bad, and he violated the rule of sharia. We can't open the the hearts of people that's why we can't call a person nonbeliever unless he testifies openly by his tongue and actions.
SUN5600 instead of tortuing me with questions, why do not you go to a local masjid and ask the Imam?! I hope you are Muslim, and it is allaways better if you study your religion from the one who knows. You know that I am new to Islaam and I do not want to confuse people with the little I know about Islaam, thanks.
Cheers, :)

[Javanmard]

Lucky,

You are wrong...you are so happy now...going to your mosque...meeting with your fellow Pakistani muslim brothers..attending religious meetings....you feel so justified and enlightened with your big religious talk....

I can smell your kind 10 miles away because you stink of pretention...I know you think you have it all figured out and that when you die.......you will go straight to heaven because you have been so good....I know you feel you can tell people what to do because you are just doing "God's work" on Earth......

You don't have clue what the truth is...you feel your views are right??? Well, how come the Caliphate before broke up??? How come some peoples, like the Turks (real Turks from Turkey) and Persians from Iran did not want to be part of the big old Caliphate anymore....because it was dragging them down...the old ways drag us down...you and the people who have no heritage can cling together under this new "Islamic" fad and make a new "Islamic" culture and way of life..........

but for those of us who are real men.....we have our own ways of life....we have respected and accepted Islam as a religon and a personal guide but when you start saying things like Culture is outdated just be a Muslim...well then your wrong......

Just because you have nothing to be proud of, does'nt mean we're all like that...

Cheers :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

I am just wodering how come great ARYAN STATE fell apart under the feet of Bedouin ARABS. hehe, there is NO Arayns left actually, first arabs, then US turkomen came and mingled with you guys, how can you claim your self aryan, :) trace your 10th Grandfather either he is Arab, Turk, or Uzbek LOL. As far as heaven and hell, I got no idea whether I am gonna to Paraidise or Hell. And it does not happen until the day of Judgement, Punk!!! But I know one thing, whoever dies as a muslim, goes to Jannah after the day of Judgement and whoever dies as a disbeleiver he'll abide in hell forever, this is Allah's promise. But none knows except Allah who is dying as a whom. So cheer up you still got chance , :)
Cheers, :)

[Javanmard]

First of all genetically it aint true...Iranians still are genetically different and they still look different from both Arabs and Turks.....and we were in all the countries way before...you showed your ugly face...

But thats not important....I know you, you poofter I know what you are.....

Can't get a social life normally..huh..big man???

You go back to your Friday group and say hi....cause the new Modern Asians are coming....we have our own heros...Reza Shah, Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) and we are gonna show you what we do to bottom feeders who try to act tough.......Your a fake, charlatan, who probably has 10 porn files in his PC...shut up we are not buying it.....

Cheers :)

[SUN6500]

Great, Lucky... Let's not than divide each other to Muslims and Muslim-nots since the Allah alone decides who is and who is not a real Muslim. Therefore, as per my understanding, no one but God should be a judge when it comes for a final decision. As per some other people who judge and question people of their religion and faith, they're indeed equating themselves to God and ruling on his behalf without his approval. In my opinion these people are true violators, and not us. Actions speak louder than words. I've seen so called "pusulmons" who reach out to help children of Afghanistan then those who trade drugs and live off the misery of other but call themselves proudly "true Muslims" and are respected greatly by ulamos.

[Javanmard]

Hi Sun,

I am glad someone discussing this topic has some sense...What people don't understand is that some people are using Islam as a very dangerous weapon.....they are saying that people who don't believe in what they believe in are kafir..ie.unbelievers...

Then they will tell you that Allah will never forgive them for their unbelief...that they are damned....some people even go so far as to equate these people with "enemies of Islam"....

and as we all know an enemy of Islam must be killed as part of Jihad....So what do we have in the end???

A witch hunt!!! I call you Kafir....other idiots believe me...and then maybe we kill you!! The only thing protecting people from this crap are secular democratic institutions....because Sharia law only guarantees rights to people who agree with Sharia law!!!! and laws like that are not very effective for a country.......

I am deeply worried by this new brand of political brainwashing Islam...I have already lost 3 friends to it....they are total freaks now...they were Pakistanis but now they actually say they hate their own language and want to learn Arabic and become just Muslims...not Pakistani Muslims but just muslim.....this is terrible....I believe deeply that this evil must be stopped as it is getting very serious, especially in the free atmosphere of the west...the very same Western countries these hypocrites hate so much give them the freedom to grow...Freedom these so-called Islamic groups would never give there own people.....

If anybody else feels the same as I do....pls. let me know...we should get organised and put a stop to hypocricy in the name of religion...put a stop to people pushing there own interpretation of the Sharia on others and let people choose their own way to heaven or to hell....we don't need babysitters with beards.....

cheers :)

[SUN6500]

Absolutely agreed. Well lets take a look at Taliban that is implementing its way of Sharia law. Well, I am curious how they're judging wright from wrong? There is no lawyer in their court, they're the judge and the executioner ? How can one be sure that a person being indicted is just another criminal and not an innocent person ? What if one of the guys on top, so called Sharia experts wants to square off with an old archrival? It's just like in medieval Spain when church wanted to put out midwives out of business and created so called "witches" to burn on a stick. They couldn't argue anything back because blind crowd believed what those religious clerics said. Its absolutely no different what it happening right now in Afghanistan. A guy comes out and says "well so and so is an adulterer" although he is not, he would be stoned to death. In US even with a lawyer and checks and balances, sometimes an innocent goes to a jail and after a awhile after appeal or case revision, it turns out that he is innocent (sometimes they won't at all), now consider this case where a person is already dead!
What does Taliban bears as a excuse for not letting women to study? Guess what they say? They say that a woman is a flower that one should keep this "flower" away from a light in a confined, secure place and nourish it. What a hypocracy!!! What a hideous, idiotic statement! What if this flower has four kids to feed and a husband long gone in a war ?? What the hell she suppose to feed those kids ? She is not allowed to teach, she is not allowed to work, well what then ? Two ways out that she can see is, either prostitute herself to feed her kids under constant threat of being exposed and stoned to death or to hang herself on a nearest branch leaving four kids as orphans that they'll probably die as well sooner or later. Well, I don't see any way out, do our Taliban proponents see any ?
You know what Taliban is all about ? Power! It's either their way or highway! You can't argue anything with them, and you cannot argue against because you will die if you do. Questioning the authority of Taliban is the same as questioning the authority of God which would immediately result in termination. No matter how many times they spit on West critisizing it, but one thing is sure: in west, they have a right to disagree, they have a right to talk back without a fear of being hanged, they have right to study and be educated and they have a freedom of movement. No matter how they will try to dump dirt on it, with a first opportunity they would jump ship and rather live here than there. That's why they talk the talk but when it comes to walking the walk they chicken out!

[Javanmard]

Amen my friend...I am glad there are realistic people out there who are not living in the clouds...who understand the harsh realisties of living in a system that is not designed for politics and criminal law....

Sun I want to send you an e-mail...is that cool???

Pls. let me know..

[Freestyler@]

It's such a pleasure to read your posts, SUN and Javanmard.
I share your views with all my heart!

SUN I also agree that taliban regime ressembles the enquisition times in Europe, but probably even in a harsher way.

[SUN6500]

Thank You Freestyler and Javanmard. Javanmard, sure I'd like to have your e-mail address, post it out.

Thanks.

[sm1]

Blin, opozdal, bez menya vse razobralis lol.
well let me wrap it up then. thank u everyone for participating, i had a good time and Sun u r da man!

[SUN6500]

Thanks sm1, likewise, thanks for the help!!!

[ulugbekTR]

mazidan sizga bir up, up yapmak yashi :)