Pochemu nekotorie uzbeki meniaut religiu?

[Reader]

http://www.svoboda.org/programs/rtl/2001/RTL.032201.shtml

[Lucky]

Because those who are converting to christianity or any other religion had never had religion, like me became muslim 4 years ago. Since I came to the United States 3 people became muslim in front of me, do not think that I preached them :) they became Muslim themselves by choice like I became by choice.
Cheers, ;)

[sanjar]

Ислам и Христианство, Radio Svoboda:

"Я хорезмская узбечка, меня зовут Махера, я пришла к Иисусу, я раньше - до Иисуса я молилась, я намаз читала (but did you mean 'em?), но Господь мне не помог, он не слышал, оказывается, меня. У меня жизнь была плохая, у меня муж очень пил и дома не было спокойствия. Я пришла в церковь в Хорезм, смотрю - там пастыри - узбеки, они говорят только об Иисусе. Ну, я покаялась, приняла живого Бога ???, Иисуса Христа. Моя жизнь изменилась на 360 градусов... (360 gradusov? :D Nichego ne izmenilos' znachit)".

" Шакад: Получилось так, что мой братишка Шакир стал ходить в какой-то молитвенный дом, к христианам, к Иисусу Христу, я стал над ним издеваться, сказал, что "Шакир, ты кафир, ты неверный, наш Аллах - это Мухаммед, наш Аллах - это Коран"..." (Kak i govoril Lucky "They had no religion". Da oni zhe v Islame dazhe ponyatiye Boga ne znayut")


"Тенгиз Гудава: Выпуск программы "Центральная Азия" завершен. Его составил и вел Тенгиз Гудава. Я поздравляю мусульман с праздником Навруз. Всего доброго!" (i chyo za tupi'ye (excume melingua) veduschiye, kotori'ye ne znayut elementarnuyu vesch': Navroz ne musul'manskiy prazdnik!"

SJ 8)

[Sash]

Mening "comment" larim huddi SJ nikiday, endi "copy & paste" qilmoqichi edim SHAHAD ning va haligi Sirdaryolik qizni gaplarini SJ mendan oldin ishni qoillatibdii. Faqat manu bu so'zlarni qo'shib qo'ymoqchi edim.
_________________________________________
Kamilya from Sirdarya said:

. У мусульман, если у человека появится какая-то проблема - они сразу бегут к колдунам, чтобы "отчитали", или еще чего-то делали, никакой ответ тебе не дают на эти вопросы. Я уже так устала от этой жизни... Поэтому мне говорили: вот там есть Церковь христиан полного Евангелия ......

___________________________________

Islom da meningmcha MAGIK qilish umuman gunoh, faqat OLLOHning qudratiga ishonish kerak hech qanaqa "KOLDUN or VEDMA" larga emas


CONCLUSIONS

Mening fikrimcha, agar inson o'zining dini haqida aniq fikraga va bilimga ega bo'lmasa u nimaga ishonganini ham aniq bilmaydi. Shuning uchun uni bir dindan boshqa dinga OG'DIRISH qiyin emas.

Yuqorida keltirilganlarning hammasi Qur'on va Hadislardan behabar va Islom yo'rig'lik, tinchlik, birodarlik keltirishini tushunmagan, Islom dinini haqida aniq ILMga ega bo'lmagan insonlardir.

[OPTIMIST']

Sanjar (Mar 24, 2001 07:49):
Ислам и Христианство, Radio Svoboda:

"Я хорезмская узбечка, меня зовут Махера, я пришла к Иисусу, я раньше - до Иисуса я молилась, я намаз читала (but did you mean 'em?), но Господь мне не помог, он не слышал, оказывается, меня. У меня жизнь была плохая, у меня муж очень пил и дома не было спокойствия. Я пришла в церковь в Хорезм, смотрю - там пастыри - узбеки, они говорят только об Иисусе. Ну, я покаялась, приняла живого Бога ???, Иисуса Христа. Моя жизнь изменилась на 360 градусов... (360 gradusov? :D Nichego ne izmenilos' znachit)".

SJ 8)

Hmm...

<Kharezmskaya Uzbechka>, how much did you get paid indirectly for that??? Those who have converted you must have been very generous towards you, right?

economic poverty, when combined with lack of religiuos knowledge, can often result in such converts, from one religion to any other,

OPTIMIST ;p

[umid-aka]

Guys,

Vi smeyotes' nad etimi lyud'mi kotoriye prinyali hristianstvo. No ved' (naskol'ko ya slishal) u nas ochen' strogo s musul'manstvom. Tut i v zonu mozhno ugodit' yesli perestarayeshsya v mecheti (at least HR organizatsii ob etom govoryat). Mne kajetsya eto glavnaya prichina - ved' eti vsyakiye yevangilisti - eto zhe secti, a musul'manskim sectam u nas gorazdo slojneye delat' PR campaigns. Vot tak i poluchayestsya.

[freestyler]

Fakti togo, chto lyudi vibirayut ne tradicionniye dlya nih religii, nabludayutsya vo vseh stranah i nichego udivitel'nogo v etom net.

Ya znayu, naprimer, chto v UK yest' tisyachi anglichan, kotoriye po svoemu jelaniyu vibiaryut "ekzotichekiye" religii, takiye kak Islam, Buddizm, Krishnaizm, Hinduizm i Zoroastrizm.

Kajdiy vibirayet to, chto yemu po dushe i eto normal'no!

Odnako fakti svidetel'stvuyut, chto v Uzbekistane mnogiye imeyut ochen' iskajonnoye prestavleniye o real'nom Islame. Tol'ko predstav'te sebe, sredi nas do nedavnego vremeni bili te, kto dumal, chto navruz - musul'manskiy prazdnik, a navedovat'sya k koldunam - vpolne v ramkah Islama. Tut uje ne znayesh' smeyat'sya ili plakat'.

Vo istinu: "Kogda golova pusta kak ogromniy chemodan, chto v neyo vlojish', to ona i promet!"

[orzu]

Assalomu alaykum va rahmatullohi va barakatuh

I agree with those who said that those people who converted into Christianity had no idea about true Islam.

I can bet that more than half of our "muslim" population has no idea about Islam whatsoever. Besides, they see that the government "dislikes" so called "true muslims" (Vahhobiy, Hizbut Tahrir, Akramiya, Taliban, etc.). Furthermore, I think everyone heard that whole bunch of mosques were shut down primarily in Fergana valley. If a police officer stops someone and finds some Islamic books (Quran, hadith, especially if they are in Arabic script), most likely that person will have trouble (fact based on personal experience). Those police officers does not know about islam either (they all 'bought' their diplomas).

To avoid all these misunderstandings, Uzbek goventment should try to enhance the knowledge of Muslims by giving them a chance to learn the real Islam. Establishment of Islamic University in Tashkent was a very good step.

I think it would be a good idea to teach basics of religion in the schools (9th grade is ideal) and at the Universities (preferrably as elective class).

Assalomu alaykum va rahmatullohi va barakatuh

[umid-aka]

Dream-aka,

Why not leave religion to people? Just make sure (for the state) that no one obuses the teaching powers.

But promotion, etc. it sounds like the USSR to me.

[Sho'r Peshona]

Why "Uzbeks" changing their religion?
After reading all other commets made by our dear readers, I decided to post my opinion too.

First of all, we have to think why people have converted to another religion. What are the reasons? What/who forced them? How are they being converted?

Well, we say that people are not educated, they do not know what Islam is, Allah or who was our Prophet (pbuh)and so on. This is a unilateral approach to this.
In my opinion, other things have had an impact on the people.
For example, I blame this on the government. Government has lots of uneducated so called "KGB"agents, dumb militia officers, and other authorities who cannot differentiate between truly religious and extremist. The implementation of the program which has been launched by the government to eliminate "extrimist groups" in Uzbekistan has been unsuccessful, because many innocent true religious persona ended up in jails. The atheist Soviet Union made many people to abandon their faith too.
At the moment, Uzbek authorities have tried to help people to build their faith as long as they do not cross the limits established by the government.
We, the ones who really know what Islam is, have to educate our people, our institutions and other organizations that govern us, if we want to continue excercising our faith.
Thank you
Allah is the most beneficient and merciful.

P.S. Please post your comments.

[Pakhtakor]

Hozir Uzbda har hil missiyonerlar kopaygan; Ingliz tili va computer orgatamiz deyishadiyu lekin ozlarining har hil Jesusni hudo deyishni orgatuvchi clublari bor. Mana shu kurslarga qatnayotganlarning bazilari Jesusni hudo deb tan olishga organishdi. Nima ham derdik, ha mayli hohlagan dinlariga siginishsin. Ular bilan Hudoning ozi razborka sborka qiladi. I hope Olloh will kick their ass when time comes.

[][he]Dude]

Salom rebyata.
Ya vo mnogom soglasen s freestylerom i Dreamom.
I religiu nado ostavit ludyam.
Voobshe ludi idut tuda gde im luchshe i legche, i esli Christ'yanstvo viglyadil luchshe i legche, to oni i idut v tserkov. A uchest nelegkuu jizn ludei v uzbekistane, tak tut srazo vidno, chto ishut vihod iz polojeniya.
Da i peremena proishodit izza neznaniya. ya naprimer, uznal bolshe ob islame v US, hotya vrode i bil "musulmaninom" po rojdeniu. A poluchit bolshe informatsii o islame v uzbekistane trudno, osobenno posle vseh sobitii, hotya i pravitelstvo "vrode" pitaetsya pokazat' svobodu vero ispovedaniya :)
S uvajeniem...

[Alpacino]

pochemu oni menyayut religiyu? hhhmmmmmm

oh otvet... potomuchto oni *******y!

alpacino

[Sotti]

Qusqasi hamma gap dinda emas...
Kerak bulsa din ham qiyinchilik tufayli tashkil topgan, va inson qachonki qiynalgandagina Ollohni tilga oladi...

Hozirda nega insonlarimizni dinini almashtirishi haqida chuqurroq fikr qiladigan bulsak, hozirgi hayotimizga nazar tashlamog'miz lozim... Hayot bizada yildan yilga og'irlashib bormoqda, yani boylar juda boy bulib ketishayapti, kambag'allar juda kambag'al bulishayapti. Huddi mana shu davrda halqqa qanaqadir yul kerak, yani usha yakkayu yagona yul bu din, Ollohni esga olish va qanaqa qilib o'lib qolganini sezmay qolish ;P

Endi bechoralar qanaqa dinni tanlasin?- Islom. Kechirasiz, bu dinni tanlab siz uzingizga hech qachon tinchlik yaratmaysiz, chunki bu din azaldan siyosat bilan bog'lanib kelgan, va siyosatga aralashgan... Huddi mana shu vaqtda esa Christlarda faqat machitida sig'inib kuchada bilganini qilish odat bulgan (Oddiy uqib yurgan davlatlaringizni oling)

Islom orqali sizni hozirgi kunda osonga olib borib tiqishadi, yoki ushlash oson, balki odamlarimiz hozirgi qiyinchilik kunlarda christlikni qabul qilib keyinchalik balki yaxshi bulib ketsak islomga utishar...

Baribir ham sig'inganlar usha Ollohga sig'inishadi, faqat yulimiz boshqacha...


P.S.: Agar christlikni hohlamasak nega shaharlarimizda uzbeklar uzbeklar bilan ruschada suzlashadi, yoki oddiy ish honalarimizda ham shu holat...

[shagane]

On my sophomore year back in uwed, an American guy(can't remember his name) started to teach English class.

It was end of December, when he said, we were going to celebrate the New Year (well, it wasn't a new year) in American way. So, he brought some food to class, and some sheets (paper), and later everybody was singing jingle bells and many more about the birth of Jesus. :) And only few had the idea, that they were religious songs.

Nancy.

PS. Anyways, Article 31 of the Constitution garantees the freedom to practice any religion, or none:
"Freedom of conscience is guaranteed for all. Each person has the right to practice any, or no, religion. Forced imposition of religious views is not
permitted. "
(SECTION II: BASIC RIGHTS, FREEDOMS, AND OBLIGATIONS OF THE PERSON AND CITIZEN; CHAPTER VII: PERSONAL RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS)

http://www.ecostan.org/Laws/uzb/uzbekistancon.html

[sh]

Special delivery from uncle Sam...

Nancy you're right. I never paid attention to these small things. This whole idea with Christmas is so exciting that I never really paid attention to the notion merry Christmas.

[Pax]

Sash (Mar 24, 2001 11:20):
Islom da meningmcha MAGIK qilish umuman gunoh, faqat OLLOHning qudratiga ishonish kerak hech qanaqa "KOLDUN or VEDMA" larga emas

Pravil'no!!
No, ya uveren chto oni, ili hotya by ihnie nastavniki ili eshe kto povyshe chto est' islam i chto net. Prosto oni ne jelayut eto videt' i v svoyu je pol'zu.

Govoryat i pishut, ili dopuskayut eto, s mysl'yu obrasat' gryaz'yu --chistit'-to vse ravno ne im![/quote]

CONCLUSIONS

Mening fikrimcha, agar inson o'zining dini haqida aniq fikraga va bilimga ega bo'lmasa u nimaga ishonganini ham aniq bilmaydi. Shuning uchun uni bir dindan boshqa dinga OG'DIRISH qiyin emas.

Yuqorida keltirilganlarning hammasi Qur'on va Hadislardan behabar va Islom yo'rig'lik, tinchlik, birodarlik keltirishini tushunmagan, Islom dinini haqida aniq ILMga ega bo'lmagan insonlardir.[/quote]

[Pax]

Sash (Mar 24, 2001 11:20):
Islom da meningmcha MAGIK qilish umuman gunoh, faqat OLLOHning qudratiga ishonish kerak hech qanaqa "KOLDUN or VEDMA" larga emas

Pravil'no!!
No, ya uveren chto oni, ili hotya by ihnie nastavniki ili eshe kto povyshe chto est' islam i chto net. Prosto oni ne jelayut eto videt' i v svoyu je pol'zu.

Govoryat i pishut, ili dopuskayut eto, s mysl'yu obrasat' gryaz'yu --chistit'-to vse ravno ne im!

CONCLUSIONS

Yuqorida keltirilganlarning hammasi Qur'on va Hadislardan behabar va Islom yo'rig'lik, tinchlik, birodarlik keltirishini tushunmagan, Islom dinini haqida aniq ILMga ega bo'lmagan insonlardir.

Vse eo verno. Prosto ne vse hotyat etogo videt'.

KTO ZAKRYVAET GLAZA, TOT DELAET NOCH' TOL'KO SEBE!

[Pax]

Sash (Mar 24, 2001 11:20):
Islom da meningmcha MAGIK qilish umuman gunoh, faqat OLLOHning qudratiga ishonish kerak hech qanaqa "KOLDUN or VEDMA" larga emas

Pravil'no!!
No, ya uveren chto oni, ili hotya by ihnie nastavniki ili eshe kto povyshe chto est' islam i chto net. Prosto oni ne jelayut eto videt' i v svoyu je pol'zu.

Govoryat i pishut, ili dopuskayut eto, s mysl'yu obrasat' gryaz'yu --chistit'-to vse ravno ne im!

CONCLUSIONS

Yuqorida keltirilganlarning hammasi Qur'on va Hadislardan behabar va Islom yo'rig'lik, tinchlik, birodarlik keltirishini tushunmagan, Islom dinini haqida aniq ILMga ega bo'lmagan insonlardir.

Vse eo verno. Prosto ne vse hotyat etogo videt'.

KTO ZAKRYVAET GLAZA, TOT DELAET NOCH' TOL'KO SEBE!

[o'zbeg bola]

har bir kishi o'zi mustaqil ravishda dinga ishonish ishonmaslik, din tanlash huquqiga ega.

O'z e'tiqodini o'zgartirish individium o'zning konstitutsiyaviy huquqidan foydalanishi misolidir.

Subjektiv sabablari turlicha bo'lishi mumkin - qiziqish, din almashtirishdan bilan bog'lil foyda (arablar boshka dindagilarni musulmon qilish maqsadida machitga borgan odamlarga pul to'lagan, soliklardan ozod etgan), ma'lum muhitda bo'lish va hkz..

[pptamancev]

Po-moemu luchshe bit kommunistom... LOL

[Pax]

PpTamancev (Apr 30, 2002 06:00):
Po-moemu luchshe bit kommunistom... LOL

A po-moemu luchshe byt' veruyushim. vse ravno ved' umrem!

Nu esli veruyushim to ya lichno ne viju al'ternativy islamu.

[liberal (muslim)]

soglasen...

yet, in my opinion, the explanation of our reluctance to accept uzbek converts to other religions (not only christianity, but also budhism and hinduism) is related to the fact that we as a nation emerged in realm of Islam. Islam and being Uzbek are indistiguishable factors of our life... and such things (converts) are not very pleasant to hear really (for me personally, at least :( )

legally, their (our) right to choose (whatever one might desire) is guaranteed by constitution. so we can't really say anything about that [although, as far as i know it is our duty as muslims to prevent our fellow muslims from turning to other beliefs (not quite democratic, is it? :) ) but hey, that's life...]

i really can't blame them and have no right to do so, because i myself find it difficult to observe basic perils of Islam. yesli ya sam za sebia ne mogu otvechat', kak ya mogu dumat' (i reshat' chto libo) za drugih?...
can you?

[Pax]

Freestyler (Mar 25, 2001 10:19):

Ya znayu, naprimer, chto v UK yest' tisyachi anglichan, kotoriye po svoemu jelaniyu vibiaryut "ekzotichekiye" religii, takiye kak Islam, Buddizm, Krishnaizm, Hinduizm i Zoroastrizm.


Uuuups...

Ne dumayu chto islam mojno otnesti k kategorii "exoticheskih" religiy, kak Vy vyrazilis'.

[Freestyler]

A ti chto j, dumayesh, Krishnaid otnyos bi Krishnaizm k ekzoticheskoy religii?!?!?!? ;)

[referee]

I agree that many reasons contribute to this trend:
1) 'unpopularity' of being a true Muslim among militia and KGB
2) lack of knowledge of 'MUslims' about Islam
3) distrust of Muslim missionaires
4) very shrewd and secret agenda of english teachers and foreign good-wishers who end up by converting people to Christianity without making their intent clear
5)willingness of the gov-t not to associate Uzb with the Muslim umma or world
6) gov-t policy to create a parallel Islam or official Islam like in Soviet years, which will end up disappointing people not only in Islamic org-n but also in the religion itself
and many more

I also agree with some who said that religion should be left to people to decide, but (and that's a big but) there should be 'equal opportunities' for such choice. What we see now in Uzb any religion (even zoroastrizm and witch-crafting) is in better position to spread than Islam!

[buhorogi]

to referee
--------
What we see now in Uzb any religion (even zoroastrizm and witch-crafting) is in better position to spread than Islam!
-------

TOTALLY AGREE!!!

[cute]

liberal (muslim) (Apr 30, 2002 18:26)
soglasen...

yet, in my opinion, the explanation of our reluctance to accept uzbek converts to other religions (not only christianity, but also budhism and hinduism) is related to the fact that we as a nation emerged in realm of Islam. Islam and being Uzbek are indistiguishable factors of our life... and such things (converts) are not very pleasant to hear really (for me personally, at least :( )

Agreed, but in addition to that, and like many others I would say that our notion of Islam is not quite right. Yes it is our way of life, but is this relation correct. Of course this way of life makes new borns muslims, but muslims which can be different than muslims in Koran. Our way of life changes, we are influenced by changes. We don't have Fikh (not enough if argued) which would change not the Islam but the answers to the changes. I'm not suggesting that something should be done government level, or something like that. Perhaps we don't have the freedom to practice this. Because of that there are people who think, as Freestyler said ,Navruz is religious Holiday.

[muk14]

Salom

Juda qiziq muamo. Nega endi o'zbeklar boshqa dinni tanlaydi? Nega bizlar dinini o'zgartirganlarga nisbatan yomon tasavurdamiz?

Boshidan aytay men islom bo'yicha chuqur bilim egasiman deyolmayman. Qolaversa boshqa dinlar haqida ham. Shunday bo'lsa ham dinini o'zgartirganlar va o'zgartirishini sababini dindan ko'rganlar ensamni qotiradi.

Nega endi hayotingdagi qiyinchilik albatta diningdan Ollohdan deb oylaysan. Agar bu dunyodagi hayoting jannatdagidek bo'lsa, yashashdan nima maqsad. Etilmaganmi bu dunyo sinov dunyosi.

Bu bilan etmoqchimanki odam umridagi qiyinchiliklarga sabab/javobni dindan emas o'zidan ohtarishi k-k. Hutti shu narsa kimnidir islom bu siyosiy tashkilotdir degan so'ziga javob. Islom uzicha (yani odamlarsiz) hech qanaqangi siyosiy maqsadlarga ega emas. Just like any other means (democratic ideal, communist theory, etc) Islam has been used by people to persue political goal. In these situations supposedly God vested power over masses to a particular individual. The masses recognize that individual as formal authority as dictated by god. We have the similar scheme with constitution and a presedant elected according to constitution. Just like a presedent would have the power to rule the people because of common agreement (elections), religious authorities could manipulate masses to believe through the means of common perceptions (religion) to afferm their status as political leaders. In its essence islam is a way of life rather than a political istablishment (such are official government). Nor is it intended to be seen/used as one.

Let's not forget that religion is there to provide salvation for our souls (existance in paradise as opposed to being in hell) not to facilitate material well being. Nor do we have the power (authority) to judge whether others souls will be damned in hell (that's better left to god (alloh, yahweh -- emphasis on that these different names for god stem from linguistic differences rather than from the fact that multiple ultimate authorities exist). The best way to be muslim (human) is not to be concerned with others convictions, but rather with those individuals' material well being. If that person views your beliefs (convictions) as being credible and responsible for your actions in helping that individual to get out of shit, he/she just might convert. Think why militia is dumb. No they are not, they are just acting on their best material interests (government is paying them afterall). So if the order is to eliminate extremism in among masses they will try to overachieve to show in front of their authority (the government). Just like a mullah will try to overachieve in front of god (for mullah's percieved personal gain), if that mullah believes in ellimination of evel by force (terrorizm, forced conversion, etc). O'zimizni juda zo'r maqolimiz bor buning uchun "sochini orniga boshini" olibkelish to'g'risida. Uzun mavzuni qisqa qilay.

Tak shto bollar please do not view the converts with disbain. They've got their own minds and interests. So if they think Jusus will save them, let them believe so. Instead be forgiving and act in the best material interests of our society. Ultimately the truth will be victorious, but to creat the grounds for it is our job. By this I mean we should work hard at getting our country out of the current economic trouble. Then and only then our people will have the satisfaction and may be some spare time to sit down and contemplate about the afterlife and which belief is true. For all I know they might just sit down and write full of bullcrap posts just just like mine.

I better get back to work at acheiving my material well being. Take care.

[Freestyler]

Wow, some clever thoughts, muk14!

Ochevidno odno: na tot fakt, chto uzbeki yakobi "menyayut" svoyu religiyu na Hristianstvo i drugiye religii, bol'shinstvo zdes' smotrit negativno, to bish' kak na yavleniye, kotorogo ne doljno bit'.

Odnako vse tut-je ogovarivayutsya, chto doljna bit' svoboda sovesti i vibora religii.

Drugjon, yesli ludi ne boyatsya "menyat'" religiyu, eto uje govorit o svobode sovesti. Tak chto ne nado smotret' na eto kak na yavleniye negativnoye. Ya lichno, napirmer, vpolne ponimayu ludey razocharovavshihsya ne tol'ko v nashem "gosudarstvennom" Islame, no takje i v fundamental'nom (blago, ya imel vozmojnost' poznakomit'sya so mongimi iz yego vidov).

To Cute:
Navruz - religiozniy prazdnik, tol'ko ne Islamskiy, a zoroastriyskiy. Ne putay.

======
4) very shrewd and secret agenda of english teachers and foreign good-wishers who end up by converting people to Christianity without making their intent clear
:D Umoril... Tochno! Tol'ko vot turki etim yesho kruche zanimalis'. Po sebe znayu. :) Konfeti, pechenya, podarki... Chego tol'ko ne pridumayut.

Chuj' da i tol'ko. Ochen' cinichniy vzglyad u tebya na vsyo eto, krome togo ne spravedliviy.

Ya uje gde-to pisal raneye. Ni turki, ni Yevropeyci ne idut k nam s plohimi namereniyami. Vse oni hotyat pomoch'. Hotya moyo mneniye chto Yevropeyci i Amerikanci v svoih namereniyah boleye al'truistichni, chem turki. Ne udivitel'no, chto mnogiye iz nih - hristiane. Buduchi zarubejom, ya znayu kak zdes' v hristianstve cenyatsya al'truizm i pomosh nujdayushimsya. Oni - nikogda ne "navyajut" tebe svoyu religiyu, poka ti sam ne nachnyoh ih rasprashivat'. They are there to help. And if that's spiritual help we need, they will do their best to provide it to us.
U turkov je eto bilo na boleye "pragmatichnoy" pochve. Ne zrya dumayu etogo Fethulla (osnovatelya tureckih liceyev) daje u sebya v strane malo kto jdyot (dumayu vo osnovnom ih KGB) :) Ochevidno i tam on kashu kakuyu-to zavaril.

A kasatel'mo religioznoy diskrimaniciyi po otnosheniyu k Islamu u nas v strane ya toje s vami soglashus'. Odnako ne nado zabivat' chto tolknulo na takiye meri nashi pravitel'stvo. Moyo mneniye - zdes' vinovati obe storoni.

[referee]

[quote]Freestyler (May 03, 2002 09:58):
:D Umoril... Tochno! Tol'ko vot turki etim yesho kruche zanimalis'. Po sebe znayu. :) Konfeti, pechenya, podarki... Chego tol'ko ne pridumayut.

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Yes, Turks had in their mind to strengthen Islam, but local public knew that pupils were encouraged to pray in the lizeys apart from receiving candies and learning English and Turkish. Even more, those Turkish shools in Uzb before their closure were clearly Secular in form and Islamic in content.



Ya uje gde-to pisal raneye. Ni turki, ni Yevropeyci ne idut k nam s plohimi namereniyami. Vse oni hotyat pomoch'.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
That's too naive to think that US, EU , Turks or any other nation wants to genuinely help Uzb - self-interest that is commanding their assistance! There's no free breakfast , only in the mice-catcher!



Hotya moyo mneniye chto Yevropeyci i Amerikanci v svoih namereniyah boleye al'truistichni, chem turki. Ne udivitel'no, chto mnogiye iz nih - hristiane.

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How do you know that ? Here I can see prejudice towards non-Christians! A decent and kind Christian is no better than a decent and kind Muslim!





Buduchi zarubejom, ya znayu kak zdes' v hristianstve cenyatsya al'truizm i pomosh nujdayushimsya. Oni - nikogda ne "navyajut" tebe svoyu religiyu, poka ti sam ne nachnyoh ih rasprashivat'. They are there to help. And if that's spiritual help we need, they will do their best to provide it to us.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
You have been abroad - yes, but have you been in a Muslim country abroad? What makes you be so sure that in Muslim countries altruism and helping people in need is not common?! Many Christian friends of mine who visited Muslim countries have views different from yours, and they always tell me that "people in those countries are much kinder and helpful than in the West".

[cute]

Freestyler,
My mistake - Navruz religiozniy pradnik, ya imel vvidu (hotel napisat') chto on ne odin iz prazdnikov Islama.
Cheerz :)

[OPTIMIST]

A friend of mine, who is from a muslim society, tells me that he believes in numbers, not in GOD! Why, he says any specific religion breaks down when put to test!

He is an econometrician! He does not want to be pushed towards religion - fair enough, as long as religion will not arise as a point of conflict between us!

just an input to ongoing discussion!

~ me

[Pax]

Freestyler (May 01, 2002 11:46):
A ti chto j, dumayesh, Krishnaid otnyos bi Krishnaizm k ekzoticheskoy religii?!?!?!? ;)

Net, konechno! I delo ne v tom chto buduchi musul'maninom ya zashishayu islam, net...

Prosto, daje v nashem neskol'ko odnorodnom v religioznom plane regione nikto ne nazyvaet hristianstvo (naprimer), exoticheskoy religiey, tak?
Da i smeshno bylo by. Ved' hristian-to 1/3 naseleniya zemli.
Nu a musul'mane sostavlyayut 1/4 naseleniya Zemli i poetomu vstretit' musul'manina daleko ne EXOTICA.

[bolel'shik]

Freestyler:referee - 0:1

Referee vedyot.

Good arguments

Bolel'shik

[reader]

moy drug pobival v Irake i tam on posetil odin iz samih drevneyshih hramov v kotorom nekotorie iraksi pokloniautsia Shaytanu. Moy drug sprosil u etih poklonnikov-Pochemu vi pokloniaetes Shaytanau a ne Allahu? Nachto te otvetili-Allah i tak horosh zachem emu pokloniatsia, a Shaytan plohoj emu nuzno molitsia chtobi pomenshe zla posilal ludiam. Takoe toze est na svete.

Konechno kazdiy svoboden vibirat relugiu. No esli ludi meniaut religiu iz-za materialnich blag to eto greh s tochki zrenia i hristianstva i musulmanstva.

A musulmanskie tradisii mne nraviatsia-HASHAR -eto kogda vse muzchini sobirautsia v kishlake v vichodnie i pomogaut stroit dom-razve on ne zamechatelen?
A TOY-prazdnik i radost dlia vsego kishlaka-gde tebe u vhoda ne nuzno pred'yavliat priglasitelnoe, gde kazdiy prohozij mozet pokushat PLOV i popit chau.
A kogda neschastie-POHORONI-ves kishlak pridet tebia podderzat. Ti ne odin. konechno v nashih gorodah vse ne tak.

[Freestyler]

<referee>, ya svoyu tochku zreniya viskazal i na tvoi voprosi otvechat' ne hochu. Uveren pererastyot v demagogiyu. And the last thing I need at the moment.
Ya budu vinit' tebya v cinichnosti vzglyadov, ti menya - v naivnosti... I kto prav? Da nikto. Those who want that, will only have to take sides (like some have done already).

Horosho, chto hot' naschyot turkov ti prinyal boleye spravedlivuyu poziciyu :). Besplatnim bivayet tol'ko sir v mishelovke, kak ti sam virazilsya.

to reader:
Tradicci kotoriye ti perechislil i vpryam horoshiye.

Odnako, tradicii kotoriye ti nazval musul'masnkimi, mojet i yest' v Islame, odnako v Sredney Azii oni sushestvovali zadolgo do prihoda Islama. Voz'myom k primeru to, chto teper' nazivayut Hasharom. V Sredney Azii izdrevle bila problema s orosheniyem i postroyeniyem kanalov. Odnako ne smotrya na eto, istoriki raspolagayut faktami, chto v te vremena zdes' bili ochen' dlinniye i slojniye iskustvenniye seti kanali. Rabovladel'stvo ne bilo tak rasprostraneno kak Egipte ili Rimskoy Imperii. Posemu yedinstvenniy sposob kotorim mogli bit' postroyemi eti kanali - eto cherez "hashar".

Kstati, ekvivalent "hashara" bil daje v SSSR, tol'ko togda on nazivalsya Vsesoyuznim Subbotnikom, i prohodil namnogo boleye massovo ;).

I yesho, ya ne sovsem uveren v horoshih ekonomicheskih posledstviyah hashara i subbotnikov. Hotya ih smislovoye i social'noye znacheniye - eg, pomosh' blizkim i splochyonnost' - ne osparivayu.

[Do'st]

Asssalomu alaykum disskussiya qatnashchilari!

Mani fikrimcha asosiy savolga javob berish bir chetda qolib, boshqa, ko'p joylarda umuman dinga tegishli joyi yo'q muammolarga o'tib ketilgan.
Disskussiya boshida berilgan savolga javob berish uchun, avvalo eng asosiy faktni aytib o'tishimiz kerak, yani Isom dini faqatgina o'zbeklar yoki Turklar yoki Arablarning, va boshqa islom dini hukm surgan Regionda yashab kelayotgan Halqning dini emas, balki butun odanzotga kelgan, millat va qabila degan tushunchalarda osmoncha ustun turadigan dindir.
Islomda Millat ajratish degan narsa yoq! Islomda faqat bitta millat - Islom millati bordir, va Islomga kirgan har bir Kishi mana shu bitta nom bilan Muslim yoki Muslima deb ataladur.
Shuning uchun O'zbek deganda birinchi navbatda Muslim tushinilmasligi kerak, balki tarihiy bir Regionga bogliqlik, Urf- odat, so'zlashish va ko'rinish jihatidan o'hshashlik tushinilishi kerak.
Lekin bu insonlarning Ma'naviy ruhiy shakillanishi, bu dunyoni mazmunini tushina olish qobiliyati, yoki ilohiyot ilmlarini qabul qila olish, o'zlashtirish, va uni qayta ishlash darajasi yoki imkoniyati ularning bitta millatga mansub bo'lishiga qaramay juda subjektiv va Individualdir.
Bizda manashu narsalarni etiborga olinmaydida, Harbir O'zbek, yoki asosiy qism O'zbeklar Musilmon deb qabul qililnadi. Bu bilan Dinga mansublik birmillatga tegishlilikni ikkinchi bir belgisi bo'lib qolgan.
Aslini olganda kishi qanchalik Ollohga ishonivchi, unga bo'yin sunuvchi ekanligini faqatgina Olloh va uning o'zi, yoki aniqroq aytganda uning qalbi biladi.
Shuning uchun boshqa hech kim tasdiqlay olmaydiki, anashu boshqa dinga o'tib ketayotgan Insinlar oldin haqiqiy Musilmon bo'lganlikarariga. Chunki Ollohni bir marta topgan odam, uni chin qalbidan sezgan, unga bo'yin egib HOLIS; YANA QAYTARIB AYTAMAN HOLIS ibodat qilgan odam bu dindan yuz o'girmasligiga ishonaman.
Yuqorida Holis so'zini kotta harf bilan yo'zganimga sabab shuki, manashu diskussiyani bo'shida bir qiz Olloh menga ibodat qilganimga qaramay so'ragan narsamni bermadi, shuning uchun Hristianlikni qabul qildim va keyin hammasi yahshi bo'ldi degan ma'nida gep aytgan edi.
Bu narsadan kelib chiqyapdiki, uqiz Holis ibodat qilmagan, Holis ibodat qilish - bu Islomda asosiy marsa, chunki Islom sizga qandaydir Bizness emaski siz qilgan Ibodatingizga Ollohdan biror narsa talab qilsangiz.
Shunging uchun Islomda boshqa dinga o'tib ketayaotganlarga qarshilik qilinmaydi, faqatgina Ollohdan anashu ojiz bandasiga ham Iymon nurlaridan berishini tilab qolinadi holos.

Assalamu alyakum rahmatallahi va barakatuh!

[Just curious]

Just curious.
Even if out of topic, just try to ask those converts or native christians these:

1. He says: 'Jesus is only begotten but not made' (like Adam) ask him what "begotten" means in English.

2. In the their old and new testament, there is no single place where Jesus says 'I am God' or 'Worship me'.

Sorry for my poor spelling.

[tokiec]

oooo, ya ochen' chasto zadavl im takoy vopros i skol'ko raz ya poluchal konkretniy otvet? ni razu!!! :)

tak chto ti tut ne pugay "converts" i christians svoimi tupikovimi voprosami! :p