The Destruction of Holy Sites in Mecca and Medina

[SmIlIk]

The Arabian Peninsula, the cradle of Islam, is being demolished by hardliners. In countries such as Saudi Arabia almost all of the Islamic historical sites are gone, but this is not the first time they have been destroyed
In 1802, and army led by the sons of Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab (the founder of Wahhabism) and Muhammad ibn Saud occupied Taif and began a bloody massacre. A year later, the forces occupied the holy city of Mecca. They executed a campaign of destruction in many sacred places and leveled all the existing domes, even those built over the well of Zamzam. However, after the army left, Sharif Ghalib breached the truce, inciting the Wahhabis to reoccupy Mecca in 1805.

http://www.islamicamagazine.com/content/view/161/59/

Read the whole article please and leave your thoughts on it...

[SAMARKANDI!]

The Arabian Peninsula, the cradle of Islam, is being demolished by hardliners. In countries such as Saudi Arabia almost all of the Islamic historical sites are gone, but this is not the first time they have been destroyed
In 1802, and army led by the sons of Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab (the founder of Wahhabism) and Muhammad ibn Saud occupied Taif and began a bloody massacre. A year later, the forces occupied the holy city of Mecca. They executed a campaign of destruction in many sacred places and leveled all the existing domes, even those built over the well of Zamzam. However, after the army left, Sharif Ghalib breached the truce, inciting the Wahhabis to reoccupy Mecca in 1805.

http://www.islamicamagazine.com/content/view/161/59/

Read the whole article please and leave your thoughts on it...


I have heard about some of them, they have been destroyed cuz people would come to worship there to the graves or sights. They were commiting some kind of shirk i have been informed. However, these tribal battles and killings r completely choatic, messy and unislamic. Arabs still excerise their tribal crazy rules that they had from before Islam. Of course, pitty sight.

[Aziz]

First of all: Saudi Arabia didn't destroy any HOLY sites. All what have been distroyed are HISTORICAL sites. They have distroyed them under religious cover. Dr. Sami Angawi, a specialist in Islamic archeticture, says: we are witnessing the last few moments of Makkah.

The Last Moments of Makkah?

The last moments of Makkah?

‘We are witnessing the last few moments of Makkah,’ said Sami Angawi, a Saudi architect who is an expert on 1400-year old buildings in Saudi Arabia.

The last few moments of the City of the Ka’bah? The birthplace of the Prophet? What could he be talking about?

Angawi is not crazy, nor delusional. The Saudi government, as part of its ongoing campaign to destroy any historical vestiges in Makkah and Madinah, are soon to reduce a 230,000 square metre area near the Makkah Haram to a commercial centre with towers, flats, shops and restaurants. But it’s not just any 230,000 square metres; it’s 230,000 square metres that contains buildings that date back to the time of the Prophet (s).

And, according to Angawi, a house of the Prophet that remains standing could also soon face the demolishers’ ball, like the Darul Arqam – the House of Arqam in Makkah where the Prophet (s) taught the first community of Muslims – did. Not long ago, Angawi had identified and excavated a house of a grandson of the Prophet (s). Soon after its discovery, King Fahd had it demolished.

Over the past 50 years, the Saudis have razed over 300 historical buildings that reflected the Islamic past.

Readers who have been to Makkah and Madinah on hajj or umrah recently will know how utterly history-less these two cities seem because of the campaign to destroy everything old and replace it with tall buildings, hotels and malls. Particularly, there is a campaign to destroy anything of Islamic historical value.

The Saudis claim historical sites could result in people worshipping at them and, thereby, committing shirk (polytheism). So, rather than Muslims visiting Darul Arqam to see the place where the Prophet (s) held his first halaqat and to feel the presence of our 1400-year heritage, the Saudis feel we will go there and pray to the house itself. A bit daft, if you ask me.

I’ve visited historical sites in Cairo and Palestine. Many date back thousands of years – some to before the Prophet (s). Do people come to these sites with a sense of reverence? Definitely! I felt overawed inside the Masjid Ibrahimi in Khalil (Hebron) as I stood before the graves of the prophets Ibrahim, Ishaq and Ya’qub, as I touched the rocks with which the mosque was built, placed centuries ago. I felt transported when I stood inside the Dome of the Rock and tried to see the ‘footprint of the Prophet’ on the rock (whether the footprint exists or not is another question). I felt connected to our intellectual and spiritual heritage as I stood before the tomb of Imam Shafi’i in Cairo’s City of the Dead. I felt numbed as I walked on hallowed ground in Karbala. I gazed with a feeling of timelessness as I stared at Jabal Rahmah on Arafah, where Adam and Eve are supposed to have reunited after years of separation and loss.

At many of these places, I felt like rolling on the ground, in the sand, to absorb some of the glory that lay here. Does that make me a mushrik?

No, it makes me a Muslim who sees himself as part of a long tradition, the last part of which is over 1400 years long. A tradition that stretches back to the first human beings created.

And I did not see, at any of these places, people worshipping these buildings or graves or otherwise doing anything that might lead one to regard them as polytheists. I’m not suggesting these things do not happen. I remember, for example, people in the Haram in Makkah bathing themselves with zam-zam water or praying facing the well. I have no hesitation is saying this is wrong. But I also have no hesitation in saying that the well has an important place in our history, in our tradition, in our understanding of hajj and that visiting it and drinking from it is a means of reconnecting us to that tradition.

But this is not the attitude of the self-proclaimed ‘guardians of the two holy mosques’ and their followers. Theirs is an attitude of holy arrogance. For them, there is no history, no tradition, no culture – except theirs. Nothing exists from the beginning of time until they did – with the exception of the Prophet (s). And even his existence must be sanitised so that it is a legalistic existence only. Not a human one, not a cultural one, not a historical one.

And that is why, for them, leaving a house of the Prophet (s) that Muslims can visit, marvel and celebrate at is so dangerous: because we might suddenly ‘see’ the Prophet (s) beyond his legalism, as a human being. A human being who lived in a house. Who had wives with whom he had sex – as opposed to someone who just gave us laws about sex. Who enjoyed socialising – as opposed to someone who gave instructions on socialising. Who lived within a cultural context – as opposed to someone who made statements about what kind of culture (or lack of it) his followers should have.

But sanitisation is not that simple or innocent. Replacing 1400-year old buildings with a parking lot is not simply neutralising what existed; it is, rather, replacing that with something else. Erasing the physical existence of the greatest human being to walk this earth and replacing it with a commercial enterprise.

If we remain silent witnesses to this outrage of the destruction of the one of the great cultural monuments in our tradition – the house of the Prophet (s) – then why do we complain about the destruction of the Babri Masjid or the Masjid al-Aqsa? Is it because in the one case the cultural massacres are committed by Muslims and in the other by Hindus and Jews? Surely this cannot be a good reason.

The destruction of Islamic history, Islamic cultures and Islamic traditions and the attempt to make all Islamic and Muslim practice uniform – a project the Saudis have undertaken with vigour over many decades – will leave us all poorer, colder and less able to face the civilisational challenges of our world. For without a history, without culture and without a tradition, we will have no civilisation to speak of or to fall back on. And who will we blame when our children marvel at symbols of age and tradition in the capitals of Europe, symbols which have stood the test of time, and we are unable to show them time-honouring symbols from our Islamic tradition?

[Demir Kağan]

Wahhabiys? Not even a human!

An example: Ecyad Castle is destroyed.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Wahhabiys? Not even a human!

An example: Ecyad Castle is destroyed.

Could you please prove that I am not even a human : )

[Demir Kağan]

Ofcourse.

... (edited by the author because of the forum rules)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

First of all: Saudi Arabia didn't destroy any HOLY sites. All what have been distroyed are HISTORICAL sites. They have distroyed them under religious cover. Dr. Sami Angawi, a specialist in Islamic archeticture, says: we are witnessing the last few moments of Makkah.

Thanks for the clarification, which means NO HOLY sight was destroyed. And only "historical" sights were destroyed as some claim. Can anyone provide the reason why they were destroyed if they were in the 1st place? Will much appreciate it.

My guts tell me they did nothing unislamic in doing that if they did that.

Regards.

[Demir Kağan]

Can anyone provide the reason why they were destroyed

For money wahhabiy, for money!

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Ofcourse.

... (edited by the author because of the forum rules)

So you cannot...aight but you called people not even humans, why did you not consider forum rules when you did that? Do not you think you broke the forum rules when you said that?

[Akhee-Abdullah]

For money wahhabiy, for money!


Assalam alikum brother,

I hope you will stop this.

Regards,

[Demir Kağan]

Actually "selamun aleykum" means nothing to me but "Tengri'nin roxmati sizningda uzaringiza bolsin"

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Actually "selamun aleykum" means nothing to me but "Tengri'nin roxmati sizningda uzaringiza bolsin"

hmmm...ok...no comments...As-Salam is the name of Allah that's mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

However, Tengri is the Sky-Father/God Turks used to worship prior accepting Islaam. Choose which side are you on? : ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengri

Please also, do not forget Muhammad alayhissalati wassalam was also an Arab!

...smells like a topic we discussed earlier...we discussed this here No To Pan-Turkism, Yes To Islam!!! (http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php?t=13341)

Getting to see a real muslim : ), and you call those who obey Muhammad alayhissalati wassalam Wahhabis? : ) Pot calls kettle Black...hmmm

[Demir Kağan]

First of all I use TENGRI instead of Arabic Allah.

I know Muhammet was Arab but he was a great person.

I am a PanTurkist but not discussing it here.

Menimg imonim Turklugatir. This is my side.

[SAMARKANDI!]

Thanks for the clarification, which means NO HOLY sight was destroyed. And only "historical" sights were destroyed as some claim. Can anyone provide the reason why they were destroyed if they were in the 1st place? Will much appreciate it.

My guts tell me they did nothing unislamic in doing that if they did that.

Regards.

Distroying historical sites are also unislamic (not in the meaning kufr of haram but not educationaly right thing to do since Islam longs for education and knowledge),With that being said, for the sake of knowledge we should preserve history not wipe them out.

[abcd]

Thanks for the clarification, which means NO HOLY sight was destroyed. And only "historical" sights were destroyed as some claim. Can anyone provide the reason why they were destroyed if they were in the 1st place? Will much appreciate it.

My guts tell me they did nothing unislamic in doing that if they did that.

Regards.

Ko'rga hassa qilib yozib qoyibdiku.

Angawi is not crazy, nor delusional. The Saudi government, as part of its ongoing campaign to destroy any historical vestiges in Makkah and Madinah, are soon to reduce a 230,000 square metre area near the Makkah Haram to a commercial centre with towers, flats, shops and restaurants. But it’s not just any 230,000 square metres; it’s 230,000 square metres that contains buildings that date back to the time of the Prophet (s).

[Aziz]

Akhee-Abdullah
the distruction of historical sites has happened. one of the main reasons to do that was it will lead to shirk. but I wonder, why the rulers of Makkah therough out 1400 years left these historical sites to us? did they left them to us so we destroy them? I don't think so.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Distroying historical sites are also unislamic (not in the meaning kufr of haram but not educationaly right thing to do since Islam longs for education and knowledge),With that being said, for the sake of knowledge we should preserve history not wipe them out.

Assalam alikum wa rahmatullah.

Brother, what is your proof for claiming that getting rid of older buildings and building newer ones is un-Islaamic?! The topic says, destroying Holy Sites in Mekkah and in Medina.

The Holy sites in Mekkac and Medina are intact. The author of the articles is not known to be from the ulema of Ahliss-Sunnah wal Jamaah, nor has he quoted a single person from the Imams of Ahlis-Sunnah denouncing such an action, nor has he referenced to a reliable source.

All I asked for was a PROOF! Did it happen in the first place? If it DID happen, then for what PURPOSE? In Islaam we know that Actions are Judged According to Intentions and Then if they are in Conformity with Qur'an and Sunnah. Let's research first which of the conditions of the actions were violated, and then we can judge them.

Can we agree on that point?


Now, how long can you keep an old building intact? Any strong building is subject to deterioration caused by weather conditions, erosion, corrosion and etc. Are we supposed to make the worship difficult to those who are present in this day and age, just because an old building is historic?! Then we should not have expanded the grand Mosque in Mekkah amd Medina, how would we accomodate millions of People?

Another point to raise, it is a sheer attack at the defenders of Sunnah who destroyed the Grave Shrines of Sufis and Shias because those places were mades places of worship which Allah and His Rasul (peace be upon him) forbade in numerous instances that are recorded authentically, hope someone will quote the exact wordings.

The article nicknames believing Muslims Wahhabis, and attacks their honor which is haraam in Islaam.

All I am asking for is not to rush for making judgements : ) rather research and clarify the matter first.

A rule of thumb that most of you respect is, a subject is innocent and free of guilt until PROVEN guilty!

The Real Historical matters that we should STRIVE to preserve are the Noble Morales of Quraan, and Sunnah, i.e the example of Rasul'Allah in our worship of Allah, in our daily social, political and economical interactions with other humans.

Have we preserved those HISTORICAL matters that will really count when we face Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala?!

How many of us started saying Allaahu akbar, Allaahu akbar, Allaahu akbar, laa ilaaha ill-Allaah, Allaahu akbar, Allaahu akbar, wa lillaahi’l-hamd (Allaah is Most Great, Allaah is Most Great, Allaah is Most Great, there is no god but Allaah, Allaah is Most Great, Allaah is Most Great, and to Allaah be praise) after fajr Prayer this Morning, because it is Arafah today?!!!

How many of us have revived this Sunnah? It is not a rhetorical question, ask yourselves in your heart!!! We have destroyed this noble Sunnah, we had abandoned many more, now we point our fingers at others who are preserving the religion to the best of their ability and rotate our tongues with insults at them?

Ya akheel kareem,

This is addressed to every single on of us, not you specifically.

Bosh ketganda, sochga yighlaymizmi?!

When we lose our Head, what is the point of Mourning for Hair??

Where is the Logic?!

Again, all I am asking for is the proof : )

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Ko'rga hassa qilib yozib qoyibdiku.

Angawi is not crazy, nor delusional. The Saudi government, as part of its ongoing campaign to destroy any historical vestiges in Makkah and Madinah, are soon to reduce a 230,000 square metre area near the Makkah Haram to a commercial centre with towers, flats, shops and restaurants. But it’s not just any 230,000 square metres; it’s 230,000 square metres that contains buildings that date back to the time of the Prophet (s).

Assalam alaikum,

Olmosbek-taxallusizdan ja otkir yigitga oxshaysiz brodar. Shu masala toghrisida odilona wa oqilona yozilgan hujjat kursatvorasiz, kur ekanmiz, shu hassa buladigan hujjat kursatvorasiz endi.

English part follows:

The article quoted by Aziz does not have an author nor does it have references. It is not that I mistrust the brother, it is not JUST to pass a guilty VERDICT based on RUMORS!

Have you been to Saudia? Have you talked to a person of knowledge who conveyed this message to you? If they are found guilty of that according to Islaam, can we do something about it to preserve the remaining "historical sites", if not what is the point of Shouting at the Wall if it Does not Listen to You?!!

Another issue,

Have you done any of the points I raised to brother Samarkandi in my previous post?!

If not then, you do not have a right to post in this thread, ethically it is incorrect.

Qopol bulsada "Ishtoni youq, Ishtoni yirtiqqi ustidan kulishi" mantiqsizdir brodar. Ya'ni oldi orqa "varota"si ochilib ashqal dashqallari chiqib yotibgan kishi, qanaqa qilib juldurwoqi bulsada avratini yopib oltirganni ustidan mazax qilish mumkin??!!

I mean, can a Kettle Call the Pot Black?!

Olmosbek-O'tkuriymas O'tkir bulishimiz ma'qulroq brodar : )

[Delf]

Anyone remembers Bamyan Buddhas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan#Destruction)?

"Based on the verdict of the clergymen and the decision of the Supreme Court of the Islamic Emirate (Taliban) all the statues around Afghanistan must be destroyed. All the statues in the country should be destroyed because these statues have been used as idols and deities by the non-believers before. They are respected now and may be turned into idols in future too. Only Allah, the Almighty, deserves to be worshiped, not anyone or anything else." This is a consensus of over 400 Islamic clerics.

Times quoted Mullah Mohammed Omar as stating, "Muslims should be proud of smashing idols. It has given praise to God that we have destroyed them."

Taleban Foreign minister: "We are destroying the Buddha statues in accordance with Islamic law and it is purely a religious issue".

There you go guys, full respect for other religions and tolerance of Wahhabi clerics.

BTW, Aziz, when you say HOLY, you define holy only from the point of view of current Saudi government. Places that are holy to other religious groups are not officially holy, therefore must be destroyed nonetheless.


Delf.

[wyxpat]

vaalaykumussalam


How many of us started saying
Allaahu akbar, Allaahu akbar, Allaahu akbar, laa ilaaha ill-Allaah, Allaahu akbar, Allaahu akbar, wa lillaahi’l-hamd (Allaah is Most Great, Allaah is Most Great, Allaah is Most Great, there is no god but Allaah, Allaah is Most Great, Allaah is Most Great, and to Allaah be praise)
after fajr Prayer this Morning, because it is Arafah today?!!!

How many of us have revived this Sunnah?
Sorry for offtop, but i used to know that one should to say this takbir after asr prayer. can you please bring up the proof that must be done from after fajr prayer? jazakallohu hoyr

[Demir Kağan]

Anyone remembers Bamyan Buddhas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan#Destruction)?

This is a consensus of over 400 Islamic clerics.

Times quoted Mullah Mohammed Omar as stating, "Muslims should be proud of smashing idols. It has given praise to God that we have destroyed them."

Taleban Foreign minister: "We are destroying the Buddha statues in accordance with Islamic law and it is purely a religious issue".

There you go guys, full respect for other religions and tolerance of Wahhabi clerics.

BTW, Aziz, when you say HOLY, you define holy only from the point of view of current Saudi government. Places that are holy to other religious groups are not officially holy, therefore must be destroyed nonetheless.


Delf.

Great point!

[abcd]

Olmosbek-taxallusizdan ja otkir yigitga oxshaysiz brodar. Shu masala toghrisida odilona wa oqilona yozilgan hujjat kursatvorasiz, kur ekanmiz, shu hassa buladigan hujjat kursatvorasiz endi.

The article is there. It is up to you to believe it or not.


The article quoted by Aziz does not have an author nor does it have references. It is not that I mistrust the brother, it is not JUST to pass a guilty VERDICT based on RUMORS! Have you been to Saudia? Have you talked to a person of knowledge who conveyed this message to you? If they are found guilty of that according to Islaam, can we do something about it to preserve the remaining "historical sites", if not what is the point of Shouting at the Wall if it Does not Listen to You?!!
It is not rumors but just one side of the argument which I tend to support. I do not have to be everywhere to have opinion on particular matter. We live in digital age where information is one click away. I am old and mature enough to understand and digest the information on my own. Besides, you can not prove it otherwise you are not in their head you can not read their intentions.


Another issue,

Have you done any of the points I raised to brother Samarkandi in my previous post?!

What I do, when I do, and why I do should not concern you at all. It is between me and my creator.

If not then, you do not have a right to post in this thread, ethically it is incorrect.
No, I think you don't have any rights to post on this account. http://forum.arbuz.com/showpost.php?p=501895&postcount=147 You supposed to leave, arslon izidan erkak kishi so'zidan qaytmaydi.

Qopol bulsada "Ishtoni youq, Ishtoni yirtiqqi ustidan kulishi" mantiqsizdir brodar. Ya'ni oldi orqa "varota"si ochilib ashqal dashqallari chiqib yotibgan kishi, qanaqa qilib juldurwoqi bulsada avratini yopib oltirganni ustidan mazax qilish mumkin??!!
Yeah, right whatever.

[SAMARKANDI!]

Assalam alikum wa rahmatullah.

Brother, what is your proof for claiming that getting rid of older buildings and building newer ones is un-Islaamic?! The topic says, destroying Holy Sites in Mekkah and in Medina.

The Holy sites in Mekkac and Medina are intact. The author of the articles is not known to be from the ulema of Ahliss-Sunnah wal Jamaah, nor has he quoted a single person from the Imams of Ahlis-Sunnah denouncing such an action, nor has he referenced to a reliable source.

All I asked for was a PROOF! Did it happen in the first place? If it DID happen, then for what PURPOSE? In Islaam we know that Actions are Judged According to Intentions and Then if they are in Conformity with Qur'an and Sunnah. Let's research first which of the conditions of the actions were violated, and then we can judge them.

Can we agree on that point?


Now, how long can you keep an old building intact? Any strong building is subject to deterioration caused by weather conditions, erosion, corrosion and etc. Are we supposed to make the worship difficult to those who are present in this day and age, just because an old building is historic?! Then we should not have expanded the grand Mosque in Mekkah amd Medina, how would we accomodate millions of People?

Another point to raise, it is a sheer attack at the defenders of Sunnah who destroyed the Grave Shrines of Sufis and Shias because those places were mades places of worship which Allah and His Rasul (peace be upon him) forbade in numerous instances that are recorded authentically, hope someone will quote the exact wordings.

The article nicknames believing Muslims Wahhabis, and attacks their honor which is haraam in Islaam.

All I am asking for is not to rush for making judgements : ) rather research and clarify the matter first.

A rule of thumb that most of you respect is,

The Real Historical matters that we should STRIVE to preserve are the Noble Morales of Quraan, and Sunnah, i.e the example of Rasul'Allah in our worship of Allah, in our daily social, political and economical interactions with other humans.

Have we preserved those HISTORICAL matters that will really count when we face Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala?!

How many of us started saying after fajr Prayer this Morning, because it is Arafah today?!!!

How many of us have revived this Sunnah? It is not a rhetorical question, ask yourselves in your heart!!! We have destroyed this noble Sunnah, we had abandoned many more, now we point our fingers at others who are preserving the religion to the best of their ability and rotate our tongues with insults at them?

Ya akheel kareem,

This is addressed to every single on of us, not you specifically.

Bosh ketganda, sochga yighlaymizmi?!

When we lose our Head, what is the point of Mourning for Hair??

Where is the Logic?!

Again, all I am asking for is the proof : )


Dear Brother, i dont want to put any hatred in between us but on what you said I disagree and i do not support your view on this one. But i agree on what you said regarding Islam and islamic morals/heritage.

However

My PROOF is, HISTORY is also KNOWLEGDE. And We should not/must not destroy our source of knowledge. We may find new discoveries in these sites which could bring new lights of the time of our prophet peace be upon him. More than that, we could find other historically important information Allah knows best. And Allah loves knowledgeable people. Look at yourself, What would you know about the history of our muslim past if they were distroyed cuz they had been presumed to be irrelevant and not worthy. In little historical findings we can open to ourselves whole new understand of past.

One of the many failures of muslims nowadays is being ignorant (in general, not in specific cases) of secualr knowledge. Remember Idn Sina. He had been confronted many times for his works, but his works brought so much use for Islam and humanity in general. Our prophet peace be upon him, encouraged us for getting education so much both religious and secular.

"The Quran urges the faithful to, think, ponder, reflect and acquire knowledge that would bring them closer to God and to His creation.(this inclueds both religiuos and secular knowledge)

The Quran uses repetition in order to imbed certain key concepts in the consciousness of its listeners. Allah (God) and Rab (the Sustainer) are repeated 2,800 and 950 times respectively in the sacred text; Ilm (knowledge) comes third with 750 mentions.

Islam and knowledge went together, closely, and from the very early stages. Other than the urge of the Quran and the sayings of the prophet Muhammad which prompted people to learn, the concrete symbol of Islam, the Mosque, was the centre of learning. And, indeed, until now, in most parts of the Islamic world, the word Jamia means at once both mosque and school, even when they are separate buildings, most often distant from each other. Finally, `Jamia’, the word for university in Arabic derives from Jami, mosque. No similar derivation exists in any other language or culture; no better association between Islam and higher learning than this."
islamfortoday.com

That is one of our failtures, not giving enough weight to the secualr education. And when we fall short secualrly our overal social conditions deteriorate and when u have bad social environment, rarely, only those with strong will stick to religious education, and others rush to better their secualr life. Thus to have better muslims and islamic knowledge we have to improve our direct secular environment first. Thats why both religious and secualr knowledge should go hand in hand, that is InshaAllah moderation not going out of shariah and Shariah is for all kinds of education.

NOW, you tell me what is your proof for getting rid of historical sights (excluding those that put harm to Islam) is Islamic?


I have been to Mekkah and around Mekkah and i have seen how they were implementing their projects but never thought that they could have been distroying historical evidence:(,they try to come as close as possible to the Mosque and other Islamically important sites, cuz of the population concentration, otherwise they have planty of land way off of the Mosque and other valuable sites (like the place where battle of Badr took place they built roads and all kinds of other things there), where they could extend their building business projects.

You are wrong, very wrong if you believe (and you do believe according to your posts) distroying Historical sites even though they dont relate to islam directly is right.

peace brother, may be you should rethink on this one.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

vaalaykumussalam

Sorry for offtop, but i used to know that one should to say this takbir after asr prayer. can you please bring up the proof that must be done from after fajr prayer? jazakallohu hoyr

Waalaykum assalam wa rahmatullah,

With regard to at certain times, it starts from Fajr on the day of ‘Arafah and lasts until the sun sets on the last day of the days of Tashreeq, in addition to the takbeer that may be recited at any time.

See Majmoo’ Fataawa Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him), 13/17; al-Sharh al-Mumti’ by Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him), 5/220-224. http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=36627&ln=eng&txt=wa%20lillaahi’l-hamd

[Akhee-Abdullah]

The article is there. It is up to you to believe it or not.



It is not rumors but just one side of the argument which I tend to support. I do not have to be everywhere to have opinion on particular matter. We live in digital age where information is one click away. I am old and mature enough to understand and digest the information on my own. Besides, you can not prove it otherwise you are not in their head you can not read their intentions.




What I do, when I do, and why I do should not concern you at all. It is between me and my creator.


No, I think you don't have any rights to post on this account. http://forum.arbuz.com/showpost.php?p=501895&postcount=147 You supposed to leave, arslon izidan erkak kishi so'zidan qaytmaydi.


Yeah, right whatever.

Olmosbek-assalam alikum brodar,

Mani sawollarim jawobsiz qolibdiku...: )...sizzi sawollarizga kelsak ha shunaqa gap bulgan forumdan ketmoqchi bulganman, brodarlar iltimos qilishgan, man shetta yozib turing deb...sababi mana shu...

What I do, when I do, and why I do should not concern you at all. It is between me and my creator.

Hapa bumeng brodar uzr haqoratdek tuyulbdi postim, sizga brodar sifatida qalbdan gapirdim xolos. Saudi podshosining fuqarosi emassiz, wa u sizga hisobot ham bermaydi, demak uning ishlariga sizziyam burnizni tiqishiz notoghri, albatta bu sizzi mantiqizdan kelib etilgan gap...men bunaqa fikr yuritmiyman.

It is not rumors but just one side of the argument which I tend to support. I do not have to be everywhere to have opinion on particular matter. We live in digital age where information is one click away. I am old and mature enough to understand and digest the information on my own. Besides, you can not prove it otherwise you are not in their head you can not read their intentions.

I asked you for proofs but I got the above quote from you. This is not a proof for your claim. I do not take the information from someone I do not know to be THIQAH i.e trustworthy. We are not on the same page, i.e your methodology of obtaining information seems to be based on bigotry, just because you do not like certain people i.e "wahhabis" you tend to support any accusations against without a due research.

If you are indeed old and mature enough brother, you shud change your attitude in judging people. If you do not want people to judge, do not judge them! What is your business anyways?!

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Dear Brother, i dont want to put any hatred in between us but on what you said I disagree and i do not support your view on this one. But i agree on what you said regarding Islam and islamic morals/heritage.

However

My PROOF is, HISTORY is also KNOWLEGDE. And We should not/must not destroy our source of knowledge. We may find new discoveries in these sites which could bring new lights of the time of our prophet peace be upon him. More than that, we could find other historically important information Allah knows best. And Allah loves knowledgeable people. Look at yourself, What would you know about the history of our muslim past if they were distroyed cuz they had been presumed to be irrelevant and not worthy. In little historical findings we can open to ourselves whole new understand of past.

One of the many failures of muslims nowadays is being ignorant (in general, not in specific cases) of secualr knowledge. Remember Idn Sina. He had been confronted many times for his works, but his works brought so much use for Islam and humanity in general. Our prophet peace be upon him, encouraged us for getting education so much both religious and secular.

"The Quran urges the faithful to, think, ponder, reflect and acquire knowledge that would bring them closer to God and to His creation.(this inclueds both religiuos and secular knowledge)

The Quran uses repetition in order to imbed certain key concepts in the consciousness of its listeners. Allah (God) and Rab (the Sustainer) are repeated 2,800 and 950 times respectively in the sacred text; Ilm (knowledge) comes third with 750 mentions.

Islam and knowledge went together, closely, and from the very early stages. Other than the urge of the Quran and the sayings of the prophet Muhammad which prompted people to learn, the concrete symbol of Islam, the Mosque, was the centre of learning. And, indeed, until now, in most parts of the Islamic world, the word Jamia means at once both mosque and school, even when they are separate buildings, most often distant from each other. Finally, `Jamia’, the word for university in Arabic derives from Jami, mosque. No similar derivation exists in any other language or culture; no better association between Islam and higher learning than this."
islamfortoday.com

That is one of our failtures, not giving enough weight to the secualr education. And when we fall short secualrly our overal social conditions deteriorate and when u have bad social environment, rarely, only those with strong will stick to religious education, and others rush to better their secualr life. Thus to have better muslims and islamic knowledge we have to improve our direct secular environment first. Thats why both religious and secualr knowledge should go hand in hand, that is InshaAllah moderation not going out of shariah and Shariah is for all kinds of education.

NOW, you tell me what is your proof for getting rid of historical sights (excluding those that put harm to Islam) is Islamic?


I have been to Mekkah and around Mekkah and i have seen how they were implementing their projects but never thought that they could have been distroying historical evidence:(,they try to come as close as possible to the Mosque and other Islamically important sites, cuz of the population concentration, otherwise they have planty of land way off of the Mosque and other valuable sites (like the place where battle of Badr took place they built roads and all kinds of other things there), where they could extend their building business projects.

You are wrong, very wrong if you believe (and you do believe according to your posts) distroying Historical sites even though they dont relate to islam directly is right.

peace brother, may be you should rethink on this one.


assalam alikum brother,

Ya akhee, I asked you for proof, you gave me a long polemic, which does not pass for proof.

[abcd]

Mani sawollarim jawobsiz qolibdiku...: )...
what questions? I don't see any questions.

sizzi sawollarizga kelsak ha shunaqa gap bulgan forumdan ketmoqchi bulganman, brodarlar iltimos qilishgan, man shetta yozib turing deb...sababi mana shu...
Good for you.

Hapa bumeng brodar uzr haqoratdek tuyulbdi postim, sizga brodar sifatida qalbdan gapirdim xolos. Saudi podshosining fuqarosi emassiz, wa u sizga hisobot ham bermaydi, demak uning ishlariga sizziyam burnizni tiqishiz notoghri, albatta bu sizzi mantiqizdan kelib etilgan gap...men bunaqa fikr yuritmiyman.
Do'h sa what that I am not citizen of KSA? Believe it or not, but I am not a citizen of USA and many many other countries, however this fact does not impede me to discuss world events. Since when KSA has special status, that you have to be a citizen to discuss them?

I asked you for proofs but I got the above quote from you. This is not a proof for your claim. I do not take the information from someone I do not know to be THIQAH i.e trustworthy. We are not on the same page, i.e your methodology of obtaining information seems to be based on bigotry, just because you do not like certain people i.e "wahhabis" you tend to support any accusations against without a due research.
Again what proof you need? Secret documents of KSA secret service on their plans? Or should hire witch who can read the mind of king? Again, this is something that you have to use your own judgement? You asked what was the reasoning, we merely told you that they are pursuing financial goals. You can shake religious scriptures as much as you want where it says that people must not worship historical monuments (which I believe is true in fact) but again in this case I believe that whoever destroying historical monuments, using religion as a cover. I don't care if you are a wahabbi or not. This is not my problem, it is yours, so deal with it yourself. When I was saying that saudis destroying the historical sites, wahabbi factor did not influence my argument.

If you are indeed old and mature enough brother, you shud change your attitude in judging people. If you do not want people to judge, do not judge them! What is your business anyways?!
Well, hello there? who started first whether it is ethically correct or not for me to be on this thread? If you want change in other people start from yourself. And lemme ask you the same question, what is your business anyways?


P.S. I don't know how much that helps but razorback is a type of a hog.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

what questions? I don't see any questions.


Good for you.

Do'h sa what that I am not citizen of KSA? Believe it or not, but I am not a citizen of USA and many many other countries, however this fact does not impede me to discuss world events. Since when KSA has special status, that you have to be a citizen to discuss them?


Again what proof you need? Secret documents of KSA secret service on their plans? Or should hire witch who can read the mind of king? Again, this is something that you have to use your own judgement? You asked what was the reasoning, we merely told you that they are pursuing financial goals. You can shake religious scriptures as much as you want where it says that people must not worship historical monuments (which I believe is true in fact) but again in this case I believe that whoever destroying historical monuments, using religion as a cover. I don't care if you are a wahabbi or not. This is not my problem, it is yours, so deal with it yourself. When I was saying that saudis destroying the historical sites, wahabbi factor did not influence my argument.


Well, hello there? who started first whether it is ethically correct or not for me to be on this thread? If you want change in other people start from yourself. And lemme ask you the same question, what is your business anyways?


P.S. I don't know how much that helps but razorback is a type of a hog.

Assalam alaikum brodar,

Taqabbal Allah Minna wa Minkum. Bizzi wa Sizzdan (ibodatlarimizni) Alloh qabul etsin.

Brodar, keling shu muborak kunlarni Takbir, Tasbih was Tashreeq bn otqizaylik : ) ... Saudida tarixiy imoratlarni buzilgani buzilmagani bizzarni kundalik hayotimizga ta'sir qilmaydi, umuman ikkala baloghat yoshidan otib ketgan yigitlarri qizlar kabi bachkanalashib ketishi yaxshi emas. Sizga nisbatan xatolik qilib qoygan bulsam brodar sizdan kechirib sorayman.

Avvalo, ozimizzani tuzatishshi ghamini yeyalik inshallah, afzalroq buladi. Butta hech kim ozini "wahhobi" degani youq, hech kim kelajakda demasa ham kerak. Balkim buyuk Allohning muborak Al-Wahhob ismlarini ba'zi ilmsiz yoki past insonlar ozlarining fikrlariga qoshilmaydigan muslimonlarni haqorat qilish yoki kamsitish uchun ishlatvotti.

Agar mandan dining nima kimsan deb sorasaiz sizga Dinim Islom, Ozim Muslim, Manhajim Ahlis Sunnah wa Mazhabim Imom Abu Haneefah maslaklari deb jawob beraman. Bu gaplarri mavzuga hicham aloqasi bulmagandek, Muslimonlarri Saudi hukumati "qilgan ishlarida" ayblab "Wahhobilar hammasiga aybdor" deb haqoratlasham orinli emas, bu gappi siz qilganiz youq umuman mana shu threadda etilgan gap.

Mana sizdan soragan talabim, Saudi Arabistonida Islom dinida Muhim hisoblangan Muborak dargohlarni toptalgani yoki buzilgani haqida dalil sorashlikdir. Shu voqeaning bulganiga shubham bor. Ya'ni butun yer yuzidan Saudi Arabistonichalik dini Islommi saqlab qolgan boshqa dawlat youq!!! Buni hamma biladi, bilmasa bilib qoysin, to'liq ishonch bilan, shirk wa masiat maskanlaridan holi bulgan kamdan kam 2 dawlatning biridir (2chisi Yaman)

Saud Abaistonini oppoq demadim ularri kamchiliklarini Ahlis Sunnah Ulamolari Qirolli yuziga borib etishgan, etishmoqda, wa bu narsa dawom etadi insha'Allah. Mening vazifam ularri himoya qilish emas. Mening vazifam Muslimon brodarimmi shani wa haqiga tuhmat bulganda, ma'lomatchilarni Allohdan qorqishliklarini baholi qudrat eslatishga sababchi bulib qolish brodar.


Yana bir bor Ayyomlariz Muborak,

Taqabbal Alloh Minna wa Minkum.

[Aziz]

BTW, Aziz, when you say HOLY, you define holy only from the point of view of current Saudi government. Places that are holy to other religious groups are not officially holy, therefore must be destroyed nonetheless.


Delf.

Delf...
why do you suppose that I'm talking on behalf of the Saudi government?
the reference for Muslims of what is Holy and what is not Holy is the Qur'an and Hadiths, any other reference is invalid. If there were any religious groups other than Muslims who has holy sites in Makkah let them come and take them away, we don't need them.

[Aziz]

English part follows:

The article quoted by Aziz does not have an author nor does it have references. It is not that I mistrust the brother, it is not JUST to pass a guilty VERDICT based on RUMORS!

Have you been to Saudia? Have you talked to a person of knowledge who conveyed this message to you? If they are found guilty of that according to Islaam, can we do something about it to preserve the remaining "historical sites", if not what is the point of Shouting at the Wall if it Does not Listen to You?!!


brother...
I live in Saudi and just two hours ago I was in Makkah and passed by Jabal Alnoor. Moreover, I know Dr. Angawi personally. He is a Makkan and he is a well educated man who used his knowledge in serving Makkah. I'm resposible for every word in that article. I don't want to say what happened to some historical sites in Makkah and Madina because I know some people will lead this discussion to the hill. But believe me, it is serious.

Sami Angawi's biography (http://www.amarcenter.com/resume.html)