Undercover Mosque: Channel 4's Dispatches

[Guardian]

Watched the programme today in the morning (from On Demand Service). It is disastrous what some main mosques are going from. It is filmed by a regularly mosque attending reporter, he has filmed most of the preaches, the inside stories, the people's opinion, the Saudi Arabian wahhabism influence on British Muslims, such a horrible truth behind all. How far can one go? I mean, some of the preachers are ho9nestly fearful to listen, strongly negative to obey to, and god forbid, evil.

Have you seen the programme yet, please share your opinions.


The programme's official website: http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=1066 - you can read some comments in there too.

YouTube Video: YouTube - Dispatches - Undercover Mosque (1 of 6)


I am also aware the film is not totally objective, but wouldn't dismiss it has many true elements of reality in it.

[SAMARKANDI!]

Watched the programme today in the morning (from On Demand Service). It is disastrous what some main mosques are going from. It is filmed by a regularly mosque attending reporter, he has filmed most of the preaches, the inside stories, the people's opinion, the Saudi Arabian wahhabism influence on British Muslims, such a horrible truth behind all. How far can one go? I mean, some of the preachers are ho9nestly fearful to listen, strongly negative to obey to, and god forbid, evil.

Have you seen the programme yet, please share your opinions.


The programme's official website: http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=1066 - you can read some comments in there too.

YouTube Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo


I am also aware the film is not totally objective, but wouldn't dismiss it has many true elements of reality in it.

In this bit of video u pasted, i agree and support 100% what the imams said. Justice may sound creul sometimes but it is the truth afterall.

[Inspiredmind]

i have qeustion.. is there the kind of religions speeches in other nonislamic places like churches, i means against islam religion, if yes, please put here, share them,,, thanx...

[Prince]

Hijab , Hijab , Hijab again... Western people think that Hijab is bad thing but in actuallity , Allah clearly stated to all human kind that it is a MUST not an optional
Cheers,

[Uyyonli]

What I would like to see is the complete unedited version of the under cover operation. It is carefully edited to portray a negative image. But none the less I am staunchly against using any offensive term for non-muslims. And that does not include Kafir/Infidel. For other religions I am a Kafir(unbeliever) and for me they are. Why is this offensive? Yes the tone is important and I do agree it is wrong to use a strong tone against them.

[infolife]

Guardian

Could you not tell that most things imams said are true but have been used out of context?:rolleyes: another attack....
To things like that I'd just say no comment...no comment...no comment
Say what you want about Islam and Allah is surely able to defend His religion.

Watch Abu Usoma's reply here

abu_usamah_4.wmv

[Iqbol]

Guardian

Could you not tell that most things imams said are true but have been used out of context?:rolleyes: another attack....
To things like that I'd just say no comment...no comment...no comment
Say what you want about Islam and Allah is surely able to defend His religion.

Watch Abu Usoma's reply here

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5621979422472502457

No need to try to justify some muslims' actions saying that their speeches or deeds were used out of context.
we have to admit that we have many problems which have their origins within ourselves and seek for solutions.

[Guardian]

SAMARKANDI!, here are few statements I found quite appauling.


"If she doesn't wear hijab, we hit her."

"The UK, France, America, Germany ... they have come against the deen of Islam" - I think, it is a hate-stirred statement, reminds me of fanaticism, which is not quite helpful for Islam. I doubt he (Abu Usama) helps society by these type hate stirred statements against "THEM".

"Usama Bin Laden is better then millions George Bushes, better then thousands Tony Blairs ... because he is a Muslim." - this one shows how he is emotional in his speeches. Very negative picture it creates to me, personally, to praise Usama Bin Laden at all.

"If the imam wants to crucify him, he should crucify him. The person is put up in the wood ... and he is left there to bleed to death for three years." - Quite a shocking judgemental statement, very totalitarian.

"Women are deficient in their intellect and they are deficient in their religion" Very wrong. Allah said men and women are equal. In his Video Google respond he is just playing with the words regarding this question. It's pitty.

infolife, thank you for the link to Google Video, Abu Usama's reply for the Dispatches. Partly, he looks sad, which is also a positive effect from the dispatches. He should rather be a little cautious about the preaches he makes, the hates he spread on behalf of Islam and Muslim. Not everybody agree with his views. Alhamdulillah, I am a Muslim, but not Wahhabi. I am tolerant, I respect the society I live in, I try to expand my religion, but don't force, I do my best to follow Islam, but not a random hard liner ignorant Mullahs. I love my religion, but don't really enjoy to support other followers' hatred towards other people.

[Tabriz_Han]

There getting paranoid because so many people are re-vertig to Islam.

Don't take these programs seriously, these people they film are paid puppets, they're total aim is to present Islam as bad as they can.

Were a religion of tolerance, humanity and love they never want to show this. All they do is pay some illegal immigrant who speaks some Arabic to go and start preaching nonsense so they can say, look at them stupid muslims.

[Guardian]

There getting paranoid because so many people are re-vertig to Islam.

Don't take these programs seriously, these people they film are paid puppets, they're total aim is to present Islam as bad as they can.

Were a religion of tolerance, humanity and love they never want to show this. .

Not as bright as it could be, though...

Have you seen the programme? Can you prove if the filmmaker is paid puppet? Surely you can't prove or bring any evidence of your allegations, which shows how lame you are. The total aim is to show how some so called mullahs/ imaams are intolerant or even incapable of preaching. How dreadful are their brains. how dangerous they can be to the society they are part of.

I honestly didn't understand the bolded part. Can you please clarify?

All they do is pay some illegal immigrant who speaks some Arabic to go and start preaching nonsense so they can say, look at them stupid muslims. Lamer, blame them again, only because they have given freedom. And, your racist remarks degrades your whole point. Who is that "some illegal immigrant who speaks some Arabic to go and start preaching nonsense"? What you are going on about?

[Delf]

There getting paranoid because so many people are re-vertig to Islam.

Don't take these programs seriously, these people they film are paid puppets, they're total aim is to present Islam as bad as they can.

Were a religion of tolerance, humanity and love they never want to show this. All they do is pay some illegal immigrant who speaks some Arabic to go and start preaching nonsense so they can say, look at them stupid muslims.

People are getting paranoid because train stations were bombed and airplanes were hijacked. That imam prepares ideological ground for conflict and violence. He openly calls to kill all non-muslims, and how can you tell me after that Islam is religion of tolerance.

I want to call Black, Akhee-Abdullah, Joha and other strict followers of Islam - if you believe that Islam is religion of tolerance, than you should condemn every single word of bigotry and intolerance that comes out of filthy mouth of that imam. If you do not condemn him - than sorry, guys, you just accepted that Islam is the most intolerant and bigoted religion in the world.


Delf.
P.S. that imam does not make any difference between foreign policy of US and UK (which is pretty f*cked up, to be honest and deserves much criticism) and ordinary non-muslims. So, according to him, it is OK to kill Swedes, Germans, Japanese, etc etc.

[infolife]

No need to try to justify some muslims' actions saying that their speeches or deeds were used out of context.
we have to admit that we have many problems which have their origins within ourselves and seek for solutions.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: who am I justifying?those imams. i agree 100% with what they have said and dont see anything wrong in it. It only sounds awful for non-muslims or some muslims who dont understand what they're trying to say.
I do admit muslims in west dont always represent Islam 100%. I never say muslims are all correct and non-muslims are all wrong. This is BS. But this is not the case here.

[Tabriz_Han]

I see your point, don't get me wrong there's alot of screwed up people claiming to be Hoca/Imam in Europe but the media always focuses on these wacko's and not the majority which isn't like this.

These people just give us all a bad name. Some mosques they don't speak a word of English so if your not Pakistani you won't understand nothing and some don't allow woman in, what's that about? they're mixing tribal customs with religion.

[Iqbol]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: who am I justifying?those imams. i agree 100% with what they have said and dont see anything wrong in it. It only sounds awful for non-muslims or some muslims who dont understand what they're trying to say.
I do admit muslims in west dont always represent Islam 100%. I never say muslims are all correct and non-muslims are all wrong. This is BS. But this is not the case here.

don't you think that it is time we change our usual discourses on kafirs and company; on East vs West; on muslims necessarily fighting westerners, etc?

[Maroon]

It is sad how a lot of Muslims themselves have turned a religion like Islam into this whole mess.

It is easy in life to blame your problems onto other people, the hardest thing is to acknowledge that the problem in reality may be yourself.

[Aziz]

People are getting paranoid because train stations were bombed and airplanes were hijacked. That imam prepares ideological ground for conflict and violence. He openly calls to kill all non-muslims, and how can you tell me after that Islam is religion of tolerance.

I want to call Black, Akhee-Abdullah, Joha and other strict followers of Islam - if you believe that Islam is religion of tolerance, than you should condemn every single word of bigotry and intolerance that comes out of filthy mouth of that imam. If you do not condemn him - than sorry, guys, you just accepted that Islam is the most intolerant and bigoted religion in the world.


Delf.
P.S. that imam does not make any difference between foreign policy of US and UK (which is pretty f*cked up, to be honest and deserves much criticism) and ordinary non-muslims. So, according to him, it is OK to kill Swedes, Germans, Japanese, etc etc.

it's strange how come that people who claim to be democratic, science followers, and truth seekers to Judge Islam through words said by one man.
we have said many times, if you want to know what islam really is go back to the pure sources. Islam=Qur'an+Sunnah. any word goes out of that is just BS.

[HustleR]

It is sad how a lot of Muslims themselves have turned a religion like Islam into this whole mess.

It is easy in life to blame your problems onto other people, the hardest thing is to acknowledge that the problem in reality may be yourself.

well, it is also sad to see how "some christians" burn abortion clinics and practicing poligamy in 21c.

we might not know, how the cia and mossad makes strategies on using religion as an ideological weapon and creating geopolitical situations to create some gunselling environment, as the weapon business is the biggest on revenue and always requires demand ... so figure...it all goes back to money and power, as you know...

[Maroon]

well, it is also sad to see how "some christians" burn abortion clinics and practicing poligamy in 21c.

we might not know, how the cia and mossad makes strategies on using religion as an ideological weapon and creating geopolitical situations to create some gunselling environment, as the weapon business is the biggest on revenue and always requires demand ... so figure...it all goes back to money and power, as you know...

You are just backing my statement. It is typical of so many people of blaming others. So typical. People usually do not have the guts to acknowledge that maybe everything is not that complicated in life, it is us people who tend to create problems out of nothing and complicate things.

This is not about Christians, this is about the Muslim society. We can sit all our lives giving examples of other communities and religions but that was the point of my post.

[HustleR]

You are just backing my statement. It is typical of so many people of blaming others. So typical. People usually do not have the guts to acknowledge that maybe everything is not that complicated in life, it is us people who tend to create problems out of nothing and complicate things.

This is not about Christians, this is about the Muslim society. We can sit all our lives giving examples of other communities and religions but that was the point of my post.

Gotcha "smart" girl! I was just cross referencing Muslims to Christians, of course each society has certain issues to some extent. I see your point.

People make mess all the time...ain't they? (nobody's perfect, right?!) and people also sit all their life giving examples and stressing out their (some might call bs) opinions just like you and I do, thats why its called forum where people give frikin examples and discuss their frikin issues they way they feel like doing, might as well follow some moderator rules. No offence sista.

Above message does not have any "meany" context.

[Maroon]

Gotcha "smart" girl! I was just cross referencing Muslims to Christians, of course each society has certain issues to some extent. I see your point.

People make mess all the time...ain't they? (nobody's perfect, right?!) and people also sit all their life giving examples and stressing out their (some might call bs) opinions just like you and I do, thats why its called forum where people give frikin examples and discuss their frikin issues they way they feel like doing, might as well follow some moderator rules. No offence sista.

Above message does not have any "meany" context.

No one is saying to you that you should write your opinion. My point was that my post was directly related to the Muslim community. Write your freakin opinion as much as you want, and I will write mine. If you do not understand the context of my freakin post do not bother as you have right to do so. Prichem tut voobshe moderators, sam neznaesh o chem govorish.


Have the freakiest day.

[Delf]

Just watch that videom guys:
4:00 "We hate kuffaar, we hate kuffaar"
5:00 "Whoever changes his religion from Islam - kill him"
5:30 "Homosexuals are dirty dogs that should be murdered"
6:30 "When Islamic state is established, people won't be killed... unjustly" (meaning he will find a good justification for killing people).
8:30 "Should we establish good relations with Jews and Christians?" - "No, because they do not follow the Prophet Muhammad therefore they are kuffaar and they will go to hell".


Basically, the ideology divides all people into good Muslims (those who follow wahhabi interpretation of Islam) and kuffaar - everybody else. And the ideology makes it clear that there can be only one type of people on Earth, kuffaar will be either converted into this ideology or driven out of existence.


This type of preaching should make everybody very-very afraid for the future of their kids.

I believe it is the duty of Muslim to condemn that dirty bag of filth, just as it is duty of every person who believes in principles of Human Rights to condemn current foreign policies of UK and US (namely, the Iraq war).


Delf.

[Maroon]

Just watch that video:
4:00 "We hate kuffaar, we hate kuffaar"
5:00 "Whoever changes his religion from Islam - kill him"
5:30 "Homosexuals are dirty dogs that should be murdered"
6:30 "When Islamic state is established, people won't be killed... unjustly" (meaning he will find a good justification for killing people).
8:30 "Should we establish good relations with Jews and Christians?" - "No, because they do not follow the Prophet Muhammad therefore they are kuffaar and they will go to hell".


Basically, the ideology divides all people into good Muslims (those who follow wahhabi interpretation of Islam) and kuffaar - everybody else. And the ideology makes it clear that there can be only one type of people on Earth, kuffaar will be either converted into this ideology or driven out of existence.


This type of preaching should make everybody very-very afraid for the future of their kids.



Delf.

Delf, what is the point of telling them? Sadly,most of them here think that way. :rolleyes:

Where is the tolerance and peace they claim...:rolleyes:

[Guardian]

5:30 "Homosexuals are dirty dogs that should be murdered"



Delf, no disinformation please with selected quotes. The full sentence meaning a different point. It originally says as" If I said homosexuals are dirty dogs that should be murdered ... would it be a freedom of speech? ..." in the video.

In Youtube you can see the whole Dispatches parted into 6, refer to the right hand related-video selection.

[infolife]

SAMARKANDI!, here are few statements I found quite appauling.


"If she doesn't wear hijab, we hit her."

"The UK, France, America, Germany ... they have come against the deen of Islam" - I think, it is a hate-stirred statement, reminds me of fanaticism, which is not quite helpful for Islam. I doubt he (Abu Usama) helps society by these type hate stirred statements against "THEM".

"Usama Bin Laden is better then millions George Bushes, better then thousands Tony Blairs ... because he is a Muslim." - this one shows how he is emotional in his speeches. Very negative picture it creates to me, personally, to praise Usama Bin Laden at all.

"If the imam wants to crucify him, he should crucify him. The person is put up in the wood ... and he is left there to bleed to death for three years." - Quite a shocking judgemental statement, very totalitarian.

"Women are deficient in their intellect and they are deficient in their religion" Very wrong. Allah said men and women are equal. In his Video Google respond he is just playing with the words regarding this question. It's pitty.

infolife, thank you for the link to Google Video, Abu Usama's reply for the Dispatches. Partly, he looks sad, which is also a positive effect from the dispatches. He should rather be a little cautious about the preaches he makes, the hates he spread on behalf of Islam and Muslim. Not everybody agree with his views. Alhamdulillah, I am a Muslim, but not Wahhabi. I am tolerant, I respect the society I live in, I try to expand my religion, but don't force, I do my best to follow Islam, but not a random hard liner ignorant Mullahs. I love my religion, but don't really enjoy to support other followers' hatred towards other people.

I agree most things he tells do sound quite harsh. And many muslims might find it hard to accept as well, like yourself,like myself. But he is telling the truth regarding the gay-rights, do away with man-made laws and women being deficient-this is more about women being weak rather than being unintellectual.
He does admitt that not a single male muslim scholar has claimed to have more knowledge than Aisha RA to this day. Not a single man has ever claimed to be better in piety in their deen than Maryam, the mother of Isa.

Muslims have to respect and obey the laws of the society they live in-it is a MUST. None is ignoring that. We all do that. But it doesnt mean that we have to follow what most people of this society do-we obey the laws that dont contradict Shariah and dont obey the ones which are haram to obey. simple is that.

I wish we all could have listened to his and other imams' speeches in full not just cut and comment version.am sure we all would have better understanding then.

[HustleR]

No one is saying to you that you should write your opinion. My point was that my post was directly related to the Muslim community. Write your freakin opinion as much as you want, and I will write mine. If you do not understand the context of my freakin post do not bother as you have right to do so. Prichem tut voobshe moderators, sam neznaesh o chem govorish.


Have the freakiest day.


ya to znayu ochem ya govoru mojet bit eto vam ne ponyatno ili ya ne ponyatno virajayus dlya vas, mojet bit. :) anyways about this particular post. I think they guy might have exagerated a little but every religion leader can be talking things alike. Anybody has to be good at what he is doing.
Peace.

[infolife]

don't you think that it is time we change our usual discourses on kafirs and company; on East vs West; on muslims necessarily fighting westerners, etc?

Indeed. It's time we change everything you've mentioned. And it's time to put an end on Islamophobia which is being whipped by western media and foreign policy.

As I say there are many bad muslims out there and we never represent pure Islam in ourselves.

If they do a programme about young muslims grew up in west and too much reactional to every single thing said or done about Islam, yet they dont represent this religion by being violent and etc I'd be quiet happy to watch.

But this one is purely to attack the religion and nothing more and based on nonsense. Have you listened to their full speech?:rolleyes:

[Aziz]

Delf, no disinformation please with selected quotes. The full sentence meaning a different point. It originally says as" in the video.

In Youtube you can see the whole Dispatches parted into 6, refer to the right hand related-video selection.


this is called scientific method :lol:

[Delf]

this is called scientific method :lol:

The imam really-really wants to say in public "Homosexuals are dirty dogs and should be murdered", but he cannot, he is confined to his mosque to say those things. And he is not happy with people criticizing prophet Muhammad.

So, I am not misquoting him, it is just a minor technical difference, that does not change what he wants to say.

Delf.

[Alesser]

ehhh, hafa bup ketayotganimning asosiy sababi, kupchiligimizning yurishimiz, turishimiz, kiyinishimiz va hattoki eb ichishimiz bir xil bulgani yetmaganday endi hattoki Islom haqidagi fikirlashimiz ham gayri dinlarniki bilan bir xil bup qolagani:(...

Alloh Uzi hidoyati etsin!

[referee]

I have watched the dispatches half way through, then switched to response by Abu Usama, and went back watching the dispatches. This way one can get a more balanced picture of the situation.
Dispatches is trying to make a scandal, that is their job, and therefore they are quoting those people out of context, which makes them sound so much more threatening than they are. Any undercover reporter making a docu film in churches or synagogues can make a similar scandalous piece...

[Aziz]

The imam really-really wants to say in public "Homosexuals are dirty dogs and should be murdered", but he cannot, he is confined to his mosque to say those things. And he is not happy with people criticizing prophet Muhammad.

So, I am not misquoting him, it is just a minor technical difference, that does not change what he wants to say.

Delf.

did you get inside his mind?
or do you have revelation?

[Akhee-Abdullah]

I want to call Black, Akhee-Abdullah, Joha and other strict followers of Islam - if you believe that Islam is religion of tolerance, than you should condemn every single word of bigotry and intolerance that comes out of filthy mouth of that imam. If you do not condemn him - than sorry, guys, you just accepted that Islam is the most intolerant and bigoted religion in the world.


Delf.
P.S. that imam does not make any difference between foreign policy of US and UK (which is pretty f*cked up, to be honest and deserves much criticism) and ordinary non-muslims. So, according to him, it is OK to kill Swedes, Germans, Japanese, etc etc.

My Reply is Here. Next time watch your crooked tongue. You claim to follow and call for Justice. Why have you already Pre-Judged him without listening to his reply?

Dispatches Undercover Mosque Reply

and

Yasir Qadhi Response to Channel 4 documentary Mosques (Wahhabi Salafi Jibaly, Abu Usamah)


You claim to follow and call for Justice. Why have you already Pre-Judged him without listening to his reply?

[referee]

My impression from watching this film is that the Wahhabi sect-driven imams are using the same regrettible methods as right-wing and/or "liberal" Islamophobs - they are preying on fear and ignorance in their community and scare them to react irrationally in line with their political agenda of dominance. Similar to Islamophobs, Wahhabis are using their money to brainwash people into becoming hatefull to the "other". The problems for Muslims is that we have to deal with both Islamophobs who are set against Muslims and those like Wahhabis who want to alienate Muslims and lock their thinking capacity...

[referee]

No need to try to justify some muslims' actions saying that their speeches or deeds were used out of context.
we have to admit that we have many problems which have their origins within ourselves and seek for solutions.

In general, i agree but a complication is that the media is digging for "dirt" in the Muslim communities in Europe and USA. And as reporters say when you dig hard you are bound to find something. There are some hot-headed Muslims amongst us, no doubt. But dealing with them and convincing them that their methods are wrong or unadvisable becomes hard when the media attacks anything or anyone in Islam or Muslims. The situation has become so bad that ordinary Muslims are afraid to donate to their mosques and charities so that they are not accused of funding terrorism or extremism. And who steps in with cash in such situations, the government of Britain or Saudi groups? Or when ordinary Muslims stop going to mosques for fear of being discriminated, who is normally left in those mosques?

So if some of you are absent from your community, show no interest in it, or does not want to associate with it, then don't get surprised that some other people step in to that vacuum. Instead of simply condemning every mistake and misguided deed committed by Muslims, one should ask himself a question - "what have I done for Islam, my Muslim community and my mosque recently"? Unfortunately, for most of people here the answer would be only "I condemned, I criticised and I apologised for it".

[SAMARKANDI!]

SAMARKANDI!, here are few statements I found quite appauling.


"If she doesn't wear hijab, we hit her."

"The UK, France, America, Germany ... they have come against the deen of Islam" - I think, it is a hate-stirred statement, reminds me of fanaticism, which is not quite helpful for Islam. I doubt he (Abu Usama) helps society by these type hate stirred statements against "THEM".

"Usama Bin Laden is better then millions George Bushes, better then thousands Tony Blairs ... because he is a Muslim." - this one shows how he is emotional in his speeches. Very negative picture it creates to me, personally, to praise Usama Bin Laden at all.

"If the imam wants to crucify him, he should crucify him. The person is put up in the wood ... and he is left there to bleed to death for three years." - Quite a shocking judgemental statement, very totalitarian.

"Women are deficient in their intellect and they are deficient in their religion" Very wrong. Allah said men and women are equal. In his Video Google respond he is just playing with the words regarding this question. It's pitty.

infolife, thank you for the link to Google Video, Abu Usama's reply for the Dispatches. Partly, he looks sad, which is also a positive effect from the dispatches. He should rather be a little cautious about the preaches he makes, the hates he spread on behalf of Islam and Muslim. Not everybody agree with his views. Alhamdulillah, I am a Muslim, but not Wahhabi. I am tolerant, I respect the society I live in, I try to expand my religion, but don't force, I do my best to follow Islam, but not a random hard liner ignorant Mullahs. I love my religion, but don't really enjoy to support other followers' hatred towards other people.


Even though these quotes are taken out of complete speechs and as we all understand that if used that way quotes and their complete texts have/may have radically different meanings, impressions, I 100% support the quotes.

I also understand that we also have problems with our imams and interpretations, but in these cases they are totally true and I agree with them full-heartedly.

Concerning Hijab-Our modern times became that impure that we HAVE to go to even harsher resorts to make women to cover up, otherwise it is going worse day by day. If the western popular cultrue was not that extreme in muslim communities and muslim females were not that eager to open up their bodies then perhaps hitting or using harsher regulations could be seen as too extreme. But at this point, as times go bad, rules have to become stricter accordingly, as in the case of different levels of criminal acts: less damage less punishment, more damage more punishment.

Regarding US, UK, Germany and others being enimies of Muslims and Islam, this is THE VERY TRUTH OF MODERN DAY POLITICS, ECONOMICS AND SOCIAL IDOELOGY. Since Islam encompasses in itself politics, economics, society and its core ideology inherently dangerious for Capitalists and Democrats which build the foundations of Western Power, These "powerful" countries ARE the enimies and they are doing their best to fight Islam. And if u can't see that trend, then pitty for your ignorance.

About punishing people and the methods of punishment, knowledgable Imam could choose the right punishment and guilty person should be punished justly. So Just punishment and the method is up to Knowledgable Imam who works in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. Nothing is wrong with that. If Imam is some kind of stuck up, then he wouldn't be in the judging position in the first place. Our Prophet pbuh punished with his own hands tens of people in single day.


By females being deficient, he means that they are weak and it is true. Our prophet Muhammad pbuh said that in many different occasions that females are weaker in judgement..etc. You can check it for urself, there are sahi hadithes on this. But this is in general not in specific cases i.e. there r some much sharper females with skillfull minds but weakness refers to general female population here. THATS WHY ALLAH ORDERED MALES TO BE PROTECTORS OF FEMALES IN QURAN.

Lastly concerning equality of males and females in Islam, I think you have to read more on that. Because understanding of equality in Islam is not the same as it is in Western definition of the notion. Equality in Islam is based on Islamic justice which is what Allah prescribed us to follow. One short example to this: Husband in the family is considered the head and protector of the family who is responsible for economic, physical and moral support for his family. Wife is responsible for child rearing/caring, taking care of house hold, education of children, taking care of husband and making the overall atmosphere of the family peacefull and loving. In this cases Husand should not violate his responsibilities assuming them as superior or better or as more valued, he should take them rather as noble responsibilty, the same for wife she should not feel and take her share as inferior and underpreviliged, rather she should be seen as equally valued slave of Allah, who is doing the same ORDERED commands of Allah as the Husband, SO THATS HOW MALE AND FEMALE ARE EQUAL IN ISLAM, not like in the western idea that if males work only then they are better and if females sit at home then they are inferior and deprived of their rights.


Again I support these imams 100%

[Inspiredmind]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: who am I justifying?those imams. i agree 100% with what they have said and dont see anything wrong in it. It only sounds awful for non-muslims or some muslims who dont understand what they're trying to say.
I do admit muslims in west dont always represent Islam 100%. I never say muslims are all correct and non-muslims are all wrong. This is BS. But this is not the case here.
..

there are certain kind of speeches what imams and preachers must follow when they do try to explain very hard and emotional issues like religion, kind of speeches i think very emotional and scareful and influence negative rather than pozitive to people, nonmuslims. i know, they all spoken words are truth, truth and nothing except truth, coz they are in the KURAN, but when we teach chirden to read KURAN we never scare with such words and never be too emational,,, and nonmuslims seem to me like children, coz they are zero in ISLAM.
I say what, imam who was there too emational , is right i mean his words are right, but his kind of speeches, chosen speech's style is not right, wrong.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Guardian-Watch this Sh. Yasir Qadhi (GPU 2006)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

My impression from watching this film is that the Wahhabi sect-driven imams are using the same regrettible methods as right-wing and/or "liberal" Islamophobs - they are preying on fear and ignorance in their community and scare them to react irrationally in line with their political agenda of dominance. Similar to Islamophobs, Wahhabis are using their money to brainwash people into becoming hatefull to the "other". The problems for Muslims is that we have to deal with both Islamophobs who are set against Muslims and those like Wahhabis who want to alienate Muslims and lock their thinking capacity...

Why do you believe these People?

[referee]

Why do you believe these People?

I did not get what you mean, A-A?

[SAMARKANDI!]

My impression from watching this film is that the Wahhabi sect-driven imams are using the same regrettible methods as right-wing and/or "liberal" Islamophobs - they are preying on fear and ignorance in their community and scare them to react irrationally in line with their political agenda of dominance. Similar to Islamophobs, Wahhabis are using their money to brainwash people into becoming hatefull to the "other". The problems for Muslims is that we have to deal with both Islamophobs who are set against Muslims and those like Wahhabis who want to alienate Muslims and lock their thinking capacity...

Nothing but words, basically

[UzLand]

How sad to realize that the religion has indeed been hijacked.

[Guardian]

Guardian-Watch this http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4529915809587167584&q=yasir+qadhi
Thank you, brother, got much pleasure from the speech. That is what I call Islamic scholarly speech.

What do you personally think about Abu Usoma's speeches?

[SmIlIk]

There are points in the begining and at the end of the "dispatch" that I do not support at all. (besides the ones made by Abu Usama). Never supported Wahhabi views... Other than that Imam Abu Usama is quite right. ...And I sense that his speech is being taken out of context and being manipulated by the journalist. However, I have to point out that he is a little harsh when he talks about killings and punishment, where our prophet preached us to be forgiving and helpful twoards others.

[Royal]

Watched the programme today in the morning (from On Demand Service). It is disastrous what some main mosques are going from. It is filmed by a regularly mosque attending reporter, he has filmed most of the preaches, the inside stories, the people's opinion, the Saudi Arabian wahhabism influence on British Muslims, such a horrible truth behind all. How far can one go? I mean, some of the preachers are ho9nestly fearful to listen, strongly negative to obey to, and god forbid, evil.

Have you seen the programme yet, please share your opinions.

The programme's official website: http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=1066 - you can read some comments in there too.

YouTube Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo

I am also aware the film is not totally objective, but wouldn't dismiss it has many true elements of reality in it.

We have our greatgrandfathers word: KARVON KETVURADI, IT AKKILIYVURADI"

This is simple against Islam religion to play minds of people, all the atatements are made there in audio, not with direct person interview, with todays technologies You can make it that any person can say anything front of You, i did not watch everything, but this is entirely BS and once more simply BS...

Western world powers loosing the war game against the Islam and they trying to do whatever possible, so they start playing with words in Shariah : So that sinnest person, must be killed, so that person should be stonned, so that person must be punished for the worng doings...

But, what about western worlds own laws, they laws doesnt restrict unlawfull actions for they citizens or anybody in they territories ?....

Don't pay attention and whoever asks for this issue , we must explaine to them that is simply BS propaganda against Islamic Religion.

[Royal]

How sad to realize that the religion has indeed been hijacked.
dont go to such wrong assumsions ! brother.

[SAMARKANDI!]

There are points in the begining and at the end of the "dispatch" that I do not support at all. (besides the ones made by Abu Usama). Never supported Wahhabi views... Other than that Imam Abu Usama is quite right. ...And I sense that his speech is being taken out of context and being manipulated by the journalist. However, I have to point out that he is a little harsh when he talks about killings and punishment, where our prophet preached us to be forgiving and helpful twoards others.

Regarding Punishment and your word for Others. If those others don't go that extreme, punishments won't be that harsh either. Prophet pbuh was the symbol for justice in the first place. Present day world is unbelievably harsh with the growing Western influence, So we have to be HARSH BUT JUST. As he said "no person will be killed.........unjustly". We are living in real world with real crimes. Judge may bring a verdict following his emotions for mercy and grant some sort of forgiveness but then the pleading party would be dealt unjustly unless they also decide to forgive, but in most cases they demand for equal treatment i.e. punishment. (add: Prophet pbuh had himself executed many people for the sake of justice)

p.s. Thats what Imam meant in some sense that women are weaker (not in a bad sense of the word), they tend to follow their emotions more, thus dealing the situations emotionally not rationally (in general not refering to specific woman)

[UzLand]

dont go to such wrong assumsions ! brother.

What I saw and heard are not wrong assumptions. That black American convert is really ku-ku. I guess he doesn't even know what Islam is and there he is teaching others. Pseudo-Muslims. Most of them of Pakistani decent. No culture, no identity - a crowd of wild and uneducated fanatics.

[SAMARKANDI!]

What I saw and heard are not wrong assumptions. That black American convert is really ku-ku. I guess he doesn't even know what Islam is and there he is teaching others. Pseudo-Muslims. Most of them of Pakistani decent. No culture, no identity - a crowd of wild and uneducated fanatics.

I think and I know that this view is coming from someone who himself doesnt what Islam really is.

[UzLand]

I think and I know that this view is coming from someone who himself doesnt what Islam really is.

All of our knowledge of Islam is relative. Anyone who claims to know more or everything doesn't know much. Especially those who scream in every corner about it.

[SAMARKANDI!]

All of our knowledge of Islam is relative. Anyone who claims to know more or everything doesn't know much. Especially those who scream in every corner about it.

Relativity is also relitive, so the above of opinion of yours is least relative:)

p.s. Talking about Islam is not screaming around. "Screaming" around may have to do with my personal attitude.

[UzLand]

Relativity is also relitive, so the above of opinion of yours is least relative:)

p.s. Talking about Islam is not screaming around. "Screaming" around may have to do with my personal attitude.

I didn't mean you only. People like Shayx Muhammad Sodiq are trustworthy. I respect people like him. According to Igor Rotar, he reportedly said not to harm Akromiys. He said they went to the wrong side of Islam and through debates they can be convinced of that and return to real Islam. This is very smart. Not killing, not stoning, not hanging - but through a dialogue, dawat, debate.

[SAMARKANDI!]

I didn't mean you only. People like Shayx Muhammad Sodiq are trustworthy. I respect people like him. According to Igor Rotar, he reportedly said not to harm Akromiys. He said they went to the wrong side of Islam and through debates they can be convinced of that and return to real Islam. This is very smart. Not killing, not stoning, not hanging - but through a dialogue, dawat, debate.

Of course we are talking about in general terms thats why we have misunderstanding of what we are trying to say here, if we had specific cases, we could have argued wether dialogue and debate or capital punishment would suffice for that particular situation. So What I am talking about here refers to Capital punishments

With that being siad, I didn't back unrational killing or support who advocate that ideology. In every example i presented I used the word justice and justice is in Quran and Sunnah. That Imam also said "No person will be killed...unjustly", refering to Quranic justice but if he refered to any other justice code which does not agree with Quranic law in particular case should be dismissed. And I believe in his right mind he is using Quranic law.

Again about killing, stoning and other types of punishment. I dont want to put an image that I am for killing or I like stoning. I feel sorry for every bit of life that is being terminated be it guilty of unforgivable sin or not. If it were for me, If each parties (pleading and defendent) would agree and if Allah permitted, I would never implement such types of punishment, limiting myself to imprisonment or the like. I even go against practice of stoning myself even though Prophet pbuh allowed it (but i wouldn't forbid it if parties requisted that), In such stoning cases (which is death penalty) I would go for more modern methods that kill instantly with least possible pain. (Again all situations are according to Quranic justice).

p.s. About my knowledge in Islam as u said everything is relative, I have my own share of knowlegde and with that I can not claim myself, knoweldgable imam or clerc but I can present my judgement according to what I know against some other people.

[UzLand]

I think the problem is with the perception of Islam. Those who perceive it as a rebellious and revolutionary religion, are compelled to spread it, preach it via violent or hard means. But then you are showing the religion as militant and perhaps you are attracting less educated and more violent people.

But Islam can also be perceived as a religion teaching tolerance, kindness, forgiveness - something that touches hearts and minds and attracts educated people and perhaps even those from other religions.

If the overall aim is to bring people under Islam isn't it better to do it by showing the best of what it teaches and serving as a model to others.

Are anger, hatred, violence best means of showing what Islam is?

Some may argue that we have enemies and we need to fight them, but can't we fight them with intelligence, intellect and example?

I think some peoples' problem is with the means...

My perception of a real Muslim is someone kind, wise, tolerant, thoughtful and definitely not violent, angry and savage.

[referee]

Nothing but words, basically

Sure, these are words, but words, and the way they are delivered, are important. So even though Abu Usama's quotations of ijtihad are accurate, the way he, and especially other guys, were delivering them during sermons are not reasonable. Why to stress hatred of kufaar, when imam could be speaking about how to live in peace with kufaar, or how can anyone succede in daw'a by speaking of hatred and distrust? On the other hand, when he gave an interview in response to Dispatches, posted on video google, his words were measured and calmly delivered. These imams talk about following every action of the Prophet pbuh, which is applaudable, but sometimes they ignore how our beloved Prophet pbuh tried to breed love, respect, humility in Muslims' hearts, rather than hatred, fear, and aggression.

[Maroon]

My perception of a real Muslim is someone kind, wise, tolerant, thoughtful and definitely not violent, angry and savage.

Well thank you. That is my perception of a True Muslim too. There are so many nice people who are real devoted to their religion, it is always nice to talk to them and they are always understanding even if you do not agree with them or ask them stupid questions. But here...some are just WOHO...u know what I mean. You get insulted by the minute you do not agree with them...

[Black]

Generally I do agree with Brother Samarqandi.
Before telling my opinion on the issue, I have to admit, that I did not watch/listen what he (the imam) said, and the program itself. My Internet connection does not allow me to watch and listen audio-video files. So my solely base for deduction is the texts posted here.

I do agree with what Imam said (what his name is, Abu Usama?), with the exception the hitting of girls if they do not wear a hijab at the age of 10. Note that I am not saying that I disagree in that point, but simply I do not know what is the Sharia ruling for such cases. If the imams words are in the same line with the Sharia, then I agree with him, if not then not.

[Maroon]

Don't girls usually start wearing the hijab when they get their PMS?

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Don't girls usually start wearing the hijab when they get their PMS?

This is what I heard too.

[Black]

No need to try to justify some muslims' actions saying that their speeches or deeds were used out of context.
we have to admit that we have many problems which have their origins within ourselves and seek for solutions.

No need to apologies for what some muslims said or deed. I feel how stupid some muslims are when they apologies for what others (like Usama b.Laden, Zarqawi, and etc.) did/do. Yes, there are some not very good muslims, they do not very right things, we know that. But that does not mean that we muslims should apologies before the West, we should not feel guilty, we should not bow our heads before them. Some even try to distant themselves from muslim identity, call themselves "moderates" and criticise whose "wahhabi" "terrorist" muslims before the eyes of the westerners. What a pity that there are muslims that feel a guilty (although they claim that they are proud to be) of being muslims. I feel that quite a few of them in this forum as well. Disagreeing with something or somebody is one thing and calling him with different names, insulting him (your brother in Islam) on the bases of incorrect (false) propaganda before the eyes of unbelievers is another thing.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Thank you, brother, got much pleasure from the speech. That is what I call Islamic scholarly speech.

What do you personally think about Abu Usoma's speeches?

Guardian-Assalam alaikum brother.

I advise you to watch this Dispatches Undercover Mosque Reply

and

Yasir Qadhi Response to Channel 4 documentary Mosques (Wahhabi Salafi Jibaly, Abu Usamah)

And make your comments on them. Afterwards, I will share with you my personal opinion.

Regards,

Akhee-Abdullah

[Maroon]

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Asma bint Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands.[3] Sunnan Abu Dawud 32:4092

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

[Black]

What I saw and heard are not wrong assumptions. That black American convert is really ku-ku. I guess he doesn't even know what Islam is and there he is teaching others. Pseudo-Muslims. Most of them of Pakistani decent. No culture, no identity - a crowd of wild and uneducated fanatics.

What? Pakistani people have no culture? And after saying these words you consider yourself educated, tolerant, cultured person?

[Gareeb]

No need to apologies for what some muslims said or deed. I feel how stupid some muslims are when they apologies for what others (like Usama b.Laden, Zarqawi, and etc.) did/do. Yes, there are some not very good muslims, they do not very right things, we know that. But that does not mean that we muslims should apologies before the West, we should not feel guilty, we should not bow our heads before them. Some even try to distant themselves from muslim identity, call themselves "moderates" and criticise whose "wahhabi" "terrorist" muslims before the eyes of the westerners. What a pity that there are muslims that feel a guilty (although they claim that they are proud to be) of being muslims. I feel that quite a few of them in this forum as well. Disagreeing with something or somebody is one thing and calling him with different names, insulting him (your brother in Islam) on the bases of incorrect (false) propaganda before the eyes of unbelievers is another thing.

I agree with you bro.As if all doktors have apologised for what Harold Shipman did it is ridiculous to expect from muslims to aplogise for the actions of some individuals.I think Tony + Bush and their assosiates are the worst terrorists of all times.Have they ever apologised for their crimes?

[Black]

My impression from watching this film is that the Wahhabi sect-driven imams are using the same regrettible methods as right-wing and/or "liberal" Islamophobs - they are preying on fear and ignorance in their community and scare them to react irrationally in line with their political agenda of dominance. Similar to Islamophobs, Wahhabis are using their money to brainwash people into becoming hatefull to the "other". The problems for Muslims is that we have to deal with both Islamophobs who are set against Muslims and those like Wahhabis who want to alienate Muslims and lock their thinking capacity...

I feel very sad hearing such words from you... "wahhabi. wahhabi, wahhabi..." . Do you know what that means at first place? And do you know exactly whom you are referring to?
I used to get excited reading your posts, as I said, I could not stop myself thank your every post. And now these words, low sentences. It is a very pity. As Uzbeks say "Ko'za kunda emas, kunida sinadi".
I can understand that you can not agree with some or most points with the muslims or scholars of a particular country or particular group. But naming them with the names given by Islam's enemies and accusing them on what you did not witness or no proof of.

[Maroon]

Black why is that when someone disagrees with you start insulting them and telling them how you used to respect them and now you do not? You do that most of the time, sadly.

Good luck

[Black]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

Excuse me, what do you want to say? Are you saying that Islam is based only in a couple of hadises or oyats? If there is a certain hadis saying a certain thing, that does not always mean that this is the last word in this issue.

[Maroon]

Excuse me, what do you want to say? Are you saying that Islam is based only in a couple of hadises or oyats? If there is a certain hadis saying a certain thing, that does not always mean that this is the last word in this issue.

What are you talking about?:rolleyes:

[Black]

Black why is that when someone disagrees with you start insulting them and telling them how you used to respect them and now you do not? You do that most of the time, sadly.

Good luck

Where did I insult someone whom I used to respect (I usually insult those whom I do not respect, me is bad) ? And where I said that I used to respect him before disagreeing with him (except referee and one may be 2 more cases), although I disagree with many people in this forum. I still respect him (referee), but I hope one day he will realise his mistake. I am not the one to judge him, but I am the one, who has an obligation to warn him on his wrongdoings. May be I am a bit emitional, but it was my obligation to tell him what I said. May be not in a correct manner, you know I am a bit rude person, but in the right direction.

[Black]

What are you talking about?:rolleyes:

Am I ( or my words) too philosofical to be difficult to understand?

Well, I just wanted to say that the hadis you brought could be not the last word in determining the proper age for wearing hijab. May be there are other ayats and hadises as well regarding this issue. Did you get me now?

[UzLand]

Mrs Reaper is as always right. You jump on claiming people are ignorant, uneducated, blah-blah-blah. But I am 100% sure you yourself have very little education. Там услышал немного, здесь услышал немного и думаешь, что все знаешь. Тот, кто знает все или много, обычно скромен.

What? Pakistani people have no culture? And after saying these words you consider yourself educated, tolerant, cultured person?

Если я здесь не прав, ты поправь меня, но не укором, а информацией и фактами. Ну какая у пакистанцев культура? Бывшая индусская? Поверь мне, я со многими общался из них - ограниченные люди. Не все конечно. У них горный и базарный менталитет. Такой нации не было - пакской или пакистанской. Кто они? Индийцы, принявшие ислам. Если не так, поправь меня. Только нервничать не надо.

[Guardian]

Guardian-Assalam alaikum brother.

I advise you to watch this http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8048345222093348483

and

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7715763265765648367&q=qadhi

And make your comments on them. Afterwards, I will share with you my personal opinion.

Regards,

Akhee-Abdullah
My honest word is - I saw the the Qadhi reply to Channel 4's dispatches while watching the first link you advised.

Great reply, pity he is trying hard to cover up some others' fault. Things have already happened, the reporter caught all the hatred incitement, the media brought the hate-stirred preaches into the public eyes. I personally liked Qadhi's efforts to make changes, elaboration into the whole story. But in the same time, I am totally disappointed with some preachers, as Abu Usama & co. They are trully shocking, very fearful, misogynistic, ignorant in many cases, very emotional that shows Islam very different.

Here is Abu Usama's reply: Dispatches Undercover Mosque Reply
This man plays and fails with his words, in his reply, IMHO.

[Guardian]

Before telling my opinion on the issue, I have to admit, that I did not watch/listen what he (the imam) said, and the program itself. My Internet connection does not allow me to watch and listen audio-video files. So my solely base for deduction is the texts posted here.

I do agree with what Imam said (what his name is, Abu Usama?), with the exception the hitting of girls if they do not wear a hijab at the age of 10. Note that I am not saying that I disagree in that point, but simply I do not know what is the Sharia ruling for such cases. If the imams words are in the same line with the Sharia, then I agree with him, if not then not.

Dear Black, here is the link for transcipt of the programme, so giving you better opprtunity to research background for the thread agenda. it's a bit strange to write your opinion about "Undercover Mosque: Dispatches" without knowledge about the issue.

Thank you.


The link: http://4symbols.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!C97D2C379282BFB3!796.entry

[infolife]

Mrs Reaper is as always right. You jump on claiming people are ignorant, uneducated, blah-blah-blah. But I am 100% sure you yourself have very little education. Там услышал немного, здесь услышал немного и думаешь, что все знаешь. Тот, кто знает все или много, обычно скромен.



Если я здесь не прав, ты поправь меня, но не укором, а информацией и фактами. Ну какая у пакистанцев культура? Бывшая индусская? Поверь мне, я со многими общался из них - ограниченные люди. Не все конечно. У них горный и базарный менталитет. Такой нации не было - пакской или пакистанской. Кто они? Индийцы, принявшие ислам. Если не так, поправь меня. Только нервничать не надо.


Uzland, what you said above regarding Pakistanis sounds sooo racist!
As Pakistan only came into existence some 70 years ago, I'd agree most of the culture in Pakistan today is from India. All South-Asian subcontinent-Pakistan, Bangladesh etc share the sameor similar culture,traditions,food etc. So what???What's your problem? Does that mean Pakistanis have no culture?

[Guardian]

Where did I insult someone whom I used to respect (I usually insult those whom I do not respect, me is bad) ? And where I said that I used to respect him before disagreeing with him (except referee and one may be 2 more cases), although I disagree with many people in this forum. I still respect him (referee), but I hope one day he will realise his mistake. I am not the one to judge him, but I am the one, who has an obligation to warn him on his wrongdoings. May be I am a bit emitional, but it was my obligation to tell him what I said. May be not in a correct manner, you know I am a bit rude person, but in the right direction.
You are being a little bit too much judgemental about others' personalities. Not very nice of yours. Don't say someone is wrong unless you can prove it otherwise.

*sigh*

[Akhee-Abdullah]

My honest word is - I saw the the Qadhi reply to Channel 4's dispatches while watching the first link you advised.

Great reply, pity he is trying hard to cover up some others' fault. Things have already happened, the reporter caught all the hatred incitement, the media brought the hate-stirred preaches into the public eyes. I personally liked Qadhi's efforts to make changes, elaboration into the whole story. But in the same time, I am totally disappointed with some preachers, as Abu Usama & co. They are trully shocking, very fearful, misogynistic, ignorant in many cases, very emotional that shows Islam very different.

Here is Abu Usama's reply: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8048345222093348483&q=dispatches
This man plays and fails with his words, in his reply, IMHO.


Guardian- Thanks a lot brother. Now this also...Dispatches Undercover Mosque Reply By Dr. Bilal Philips my opinion is on its way!

[infolife]

My honest word is - I saw the the Qadhi reply to Channel 4's dispatches while watching the first link you advised.

Great reply, pity he is trying hard to cover up some others' fault. Things have already happened, the reporter caught all the hatred incitement, the media brought the hate-stirred preaches into the public eyes. I personally liked Qadhi's efforts to make changes, elaboration into the whole story. But in the same time, I am totally disappointed with some preachers, as Abu Usama & co. They are trully shocking, very fearful, misogynistic, ignorant in many cases, very emotional that shows Islam very different.

Here is Abu Usama's reply: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8048345222093348483&q=dispatches
This man plays and fails with his words, in his reply, IMHO.

I have been both Abu-Usoma's and Khalid Yasin's talks in live.
I have to say shayh Abu-Usoma is very very harsh but he speaks the truth. When I went to his talk, my best non-muslim friend was with me and she felt offended(badly). I felt very uncomfortable and we had to leave before the talk finished. But this in no way proves the accusations you have said about him. I dont agree with the way he expresses himself but he has definately got sound knowledge of Islam.

Khalid Yasin, on the other hand, softer than him. That's why they havent quoted him as much. There could be lots of nice things said about this religion otherwise.

[Guardian]

Uzland, what you said above regarding Pakistanis sounds sooo racist!
As Pakistan only came into existence some 70 years ago, I'd agree most of the culture in Pakistan today is from India. All South-Asian subcontinent-Pakistan, Bangladesh etc share the sameor similar culture,traditions,food etc. So what???What's your problem? Does that mean Pakistanis have no culture?
It's already an off-topic. I don't agree with Uzland's rather labeling method of Pakistanis. However, it is true that Pakistan's general public are very poor, the education system is disastrous, their culture is popular with dumb-men being on the top of all businesses, and in most cases those head-of-all dominant men are very hypocritical. Ofcourse there are some very lovable people in there, as in everywhere, but the culture makes their life a little harsh at time. they still have honour killings popular among, that is the worst fact.

[UzLand]

Uzland, what you said above regarding Pakistanis sounds sooo racist!
As Pakistan only came into existence some 70 years ago, I'd agree most of the culture in Pakistan today is from India. All South-Asian subcontinent-Pakistan, Bangladesh etc share the sameor similar culture,traditions,food etc. So what???What's your problem? Does that mean Pakistanis have no culture?

Look, I don't care if you call me racist. Didn't the guy on the video Abdulla gave was saying that if we don't like gays they (in the West) call us homophobes. So now you are calling me racist. And yes, Pakistanis have no genuine culture. Except for growing the weed, learning extremism at madrassahs and chasing whores everytime they visit Tashkent. Believe me in school I worked as interpreter at different hotels in Tashkent and worked with them. They usually never keep their word, undermine each other. Again, I am not saying all of them are like this.

[referee]

I feel very sad hearing such words from you... "wahhabi. wahhabi, wahhabi..." . Do you know what that means at first place? And do you know exactly whom you are referring to?
I used to get excited reading your posts, as I said, I could not stop myself thank your every post. And now these words, low sentences. It is a very pity. As Uzbeks say "Ko'za kunda emas, kunida sinadi".
I can understand that you can not agree with some or most points with the muslims or scholars of a particular country or particular group. But naming them with the names given by Islam's enemies and accusing them on what you did not witness or no proof of.

Sorry, brother, if you feel that way. But I only named that group Wahhabi, rather than labelling or shaming them. We can call them other names, but the fact is that their approach to Islam is strongly conditioned by Saudi traditions and unexposed to interactions with other communities. So my reference to Muslims of Wahhabi tradition is not pejorative but descriptive (in fact, my Arab friends referred to Saudis as Wahhabi as well). I am referring to them as Muslims still, not as an alien group.

You see I have had experience in dealing with such people, I mean people from Saudi Arabia or those who had adopted Saudi traditions, during my university time in regard to our mosque there. Most of them are very modest, pious and try to follow Prophet's traditions to the letter. But, they have little experience in dealing with other groups (non-Saudi Muslim, Christian, or Jewish) and also tend to "focus on trees while ignoring the forest". They were very charitable and most generous when it comes to supporting our mosque and other Islamic festivities. However, it was a nightmare to get anything done with them because they would be very picky on smaller things, while ignoring bigger issues. Our mosque committee had to take their views into account because their opinions were not totally out of tune with Hadiths and also because the mosque financially depended on their contributions, especially during Ramaddan etc. So we always had to have long discussions and convincing to do with them, always appointed a Saudi as financial officer and had an implicit agreement with them that formally we deal with non-Muslim groups to prevent misunderstandings etc.
Why I am saying this, because I think those Muslims are our brothers and we need to help them when they are aggressors and when ther are oppressed - help them in resisting the oppression by the media, by US/EU imperialists and their own governments, and help them by preventing their unjustified aggression or unjustified incitement of hatred to innocent people...

[Maroon]

Am I ( or my words) too philosofical to be difficult to understand?

Well, I just wanted to say that the hadis you brought could be not the last word in determining the proper age for wearing hijab. May be there are other ayats and hadises as well regarding this issue. Did you get me now?

You do not have to be rude because I was not rude to you, ok?

Talk about tolerance. :rolleyes:

As far as the hadith goes, it is mentioned only by Abu Dawud. But if you do some research you will find that it is recommended to girls to wear hijab when reaching puberty.

http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/hijab.html

http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html

If you find something else, share.

Bye.

[Maroon]

Funny when a person does not like a Pakistani he is immediately called racist, but it is ok to hate other nations for following another religion. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Thinking out loud. :rolleyes:

[referee]

Ну какая у пакистанцев культура? Бывшая индусская? Поверь мне, я со многими общался из них - ограниченные люди. Не все конечно. У них горный и базарный менталитет. Такой нации не было - пакской или пакистанской. Кто они? Индийцы, принявшие ислам.


I am not an expert on Pakistani culture, but would not call it as uncultured. Even if it's recent as a modern state, its culture goes back very long, similar to that of Central Asia. I am personally very fond of Pakistani traditional (sufi) singing, Qawwali. It's amazingly rich and heart-moving. I am sure there are other things that we are just not aware of.

This post could be easily applied to Uzbekistan by another foreigner: does Uzbekistan have any culture apart from that of Russia;) I am sure you have come across with many quotes like that in reference to Uzbekistan, which may have aroused your temper. Well, I have, and therefore, would not want to make a similar injustice to Pakistanis:D

[SAMARKANDI!]

I think the problem is with the perception of Islam. Those who perceive it as a rebellious and revolutionary religion, are compelled to spread it, preach it via violent or hard means. But then you are showing the religion as militant and perhaps you are attracting less educated and more violent people.

But Islam can also be perceived as a religion teaching tolerance, kindness, forgiveness - something that touches hearts and minds and attracts educated people and perhaps even those from other religions.

If the overall aim is to bring people under Islam isn't it better to do it by showing the best of what it teaches and serving as a model to others.

Are anger, hatred, violence best means of showing what Islam is?

Some may argue that we have enemies and we need to fight them, but can't we fight them with intelligence, intellect and example?

I think some peoples' problem is with the means...

My perception of a real Muslim is someone kind, wise, tolerant, thoughtful and definitely not violent, angry and savage.


Your words are true, I agree with your view that Islam is such and such. It is totally right way of putting it.

I also advocate the movement of peace, intelligence..etc. That's why I am here. Otherwise I may have ended up somewhere u can't even imagine:lol:

But What I am trying to say here is that these Imams are not lying or misleading people, they are speaking the very truth. Also the times we are living right now are not the same when great Islamic empire existed and we had relatively (much more) peaceful relationships with non-muslims and espacially with the West. Since West has launched massive over/underground campaign against Islam and its followers. So now we have different levels of reaction to that action. Although I, myself choose the way of "reacting" with knowledge, I also support other means as long as they are advocating the truth.

p.s. I seem to miss one question in Guardian's post about Bin Laden. I dont know who he really is. I don't know what he really did. Everything I know is coming from Western Mass Media (which when it comes to Islam speaks 100% bs). But I know what Bush and Blair did and doing very well and that they are not muslims rather enimies.

[UzLand]

But What I am trying to say here is that these Imams are not lying or misleading people, they are speaking the very truth.

Perhaps, when speaking publicly one should also be responsible for one's words, because what you said and what you actually meant may be interpreted and taken differently at the other end, by your audience. People are different. Like we say "shapkasini olib kelsa desa, boshini olib keladiganlar". Calling for violence may be implicit, not explicit.

[Maroon]

Nado sdelat tak, otpechatat transcript poyti k svoemu Imamu i sprosit ego mnenie na etot shyot. Pochemu bi i net??

Legko sidet i sporit o tem i o sem, and some people can get misleaded so the best thing is to double check.

[UzLand]

Nado sdelat tak, otpechatat transcript poyti k svoemu Imamu i sprosit ego mnenie na etot shyot. Pochemu bi i net??

Legko sidet i sporit o tem i o sem, and some people can get misleaded so the best thing is to double check.

И где гарантия, что после своего имама, ты не обойдешь еще дюжину имамов, чтобы окончательно убедиться?

[Royal]

What I saw and heard are not wrong assumptions. That black American convert is really ku-ku. I guess he doesn't even know what Islam is and there he is teaching others. Pseudo-Muslims. Most of them of Pakistani decent. No culture, no identity - a crowd of wild and uneducated fanatics.
Are You spoke with him in life or was online ?

How You know that he was saying things like that ?

Did You know that could be possibility that was done with some video editing proga ?

[Maroon]

И где гарантия, что после своего имама, ты не обойдешь еще дюжину имамов, чтобы окончательно убедиться?

Manga uzi nima? Man boshqalaga devoman.

My point is, everyone here claims this and that without even backing up the statments, is their own or that Imams. There are so many Imams that mislead people, they are human after all, and God knows what goes on inside them. You should always double check (a scholar, an imam, sources bla bla) when such serious things are said.

[melo]

Manga uzi nima? Man boshqalaga devoman.

My point is, everyone here claims this and that without even backing up the statments, is their own or that Imams. There are so many Imams that mislead people, they are human after all, and God knows what goes on inside them. You should always double check (a scholar, an imam, sources bla bla) when such serious things are said.

I would suggest double checking everything with logic (if available :lol: ). Just because someone wrote something or said something does not make it correct. Everyone is capable of sin aand error. That is why it is best to always think about everything and apply it to your life before blindly following. Think about this before replying- it relates to all sides of the argument.

[Maroon]

I would suggest double checking everything with logic (if available :lol: ). Just because someone wrote something or said something does not make it correct. Everyone is capable of sin aand error. That is why it is best to always think about everything and apply it to your life before blindly following. Think about this before replying- it relates to all sides of the argument.

Dear atpaint, some do not have a logic, unfortunately. ;)

To someone killing sounds logical as for another one it does not.

[SAMARKANDI!]

Perhaps, when speaking publicly one should also be responsible for one's words, because what you said and what you actually meant may be interpreted and taken differently at the other end, by your audience. People are different. Like we say "shapkasini olib kelsa desa, boshini olib keladiganlar". Calling for violence may be implicit, not explicit.

Sane Muslim understands what I mean and what i speak, whoever wants to use them in their advatage or dont want to understand them, it is their problem. I didnt come here for PR.

p.s. as i said above the harsh feeling u might be getting is not to do with what i said or what i am standing behind, it is simply my temperament. (rude guy:evil: ) I don't know who i may have become if islam wasn't with me:rolleyes:

[Black]

You do not have to be rude because I was not rude to you, ok?

Talk about tolerance. :rolleyes:

As far as the hadith goes, it is mentioned only by Abu Dawud. But if you do some research you will find that it is recommended to girls to wear hijab when reaching puberty.

http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/hijab.html

http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html

If you find something else, share.

Bye.

Ohhhh, when I was rude to you? Or did my question or answer seem to you rude? Sorry for causing misunderstanding.

As for the (the age of wearing) hijab, it is another issue. Puberty reaches different girls in different ages. At least you should know it better than me. I do not want to discuss this issue with you (both of have no knowledge to derive Shariah rulings from Qur'an and hadises, and it is a way off topic).

[Black]

Dear Black, here is the link for transcipt of the programme, so giving you better opprtunity to research background for the thread agenda. it's a bit strange to write your opinion about "Undercover Mosque: Dispatches" without knowledge about the issue.

Thank you.


The link: http://4symbols.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!C97D2C379282BFB3!796.entry

Thanks brother, I read it, it is no different from what I imagined. But, if you paid attention, I give my opinion on what you guys wrote here, nothing more than that. So you are a bit wrong to say that I gave my opinion without knowledge of the issue. I gave my opinion on what I know/read here, I said nothing more about the issue (my posts regarding "wahhabis", pakistani people and hijab are not related to the issue, they were a bit off-top).
Thank you anyway for giving me opportunity to get known the original programme.

As for the program, I mostly agree with it, i.e. with the words said by muslim clerics. Yes it is bit harsh and hard to accept, but that is how the Truth accepted always: chilling and hard to accept. What imams are saying are mostly correct (according to my knowledge, but I do not think that I have more knowledge than those imams).
Only few parts of their words seems to me doubtful, I mean I do not know the exact Sharia rulings on those issues, that is why I say I do not agree, or I do not know whether to agree or not on those issues. One of them, for example, where one imam says that in a Islamic state the imam can do anything, if he wants he can leave the criminal bleeding to death for three days. But my knowledge says that it is prohibited to leave criminals like that. Even if the person is ordered to death sentence, he should be killed instantly, not by torturing him.

Also, many accusations made by the programme, like Saudis fund those and those mosques, they especially train and teach imams to intolerance and to spread hate and etc. craps have no proofs. And bringing sufi leaders against Saudian was the most exciting side of the program. It is like bringing KKK member to judge black person. The authors of the program know what they are doing.

In short, I do agree with (most of) what has been said, although it is hard to accept those words. The West, with the leadership of the US and UK, is on the war with Islam and Muslims, whether they acknowledge it or not, despite whatever masks and colors they give to it, they have opened a war against Islam. In this situation, the worst response and reaction of Islamic world have not come yet. Much worse than those words imams said. The West have to eat what it cooked itself.

Many people speak that Islam is tolerant and peaceful religion, that muslims are tolerant and so, and so. Yes it is true, BUT it is true when those people are not in the war against muslims. How can you tolerate a person who bombed your house/your brother’s house or gave an order to bomb it, or gave his money to do it. Before asking tolerance and respect, one should follow it himself. Like famous saying of nowadays says “When our soldiers peacefully bombed their lands, those terrorists start to kill us”. Koroche kakoy privet takoy otvet.

[Black]

Sorry, brother, if you feel that way. But I only named that group Wahhabi, rather than labelling or shaming them. We can call them other names, but the fact is that their approach to Islam is strongly conditioned by Saudi traditions and unexposed to interactions with other communities. So my reference to Muslims of Wahhabi tradition is not pejorative but descriptive (in fact, my Arab friends referred to Saudis as Wahhabi as well). I am referring to them as Muslims still, not as an alien group.

Brother, I am not saying that you put those people out of Islam, but simply you are singing the song written by the enemies of Islam. I am not saying that you have to agree 100% with Saudians or those on TV programme, but it is not right thing calling your brothers with the names and distancing yourself from them.

You see I have had experience in dealing with such people, I mean people from Saudi Arabia or those who had adopted Saudi traditions, during my university time in regard to our mosque there. Most of them are very modest, pious and try to follow Prophet's traditions to the letter. But, they have little experience in dealing with other groups (non-Saudi Muslim, Christian, or Jewish) and also tend to "focus on trees while ignoring the forest". They were very charitable and most generous when it comes to supporting our mosque and other Islamic festivities. However, it was a nightmare to get anything done with them because they would be very picky on smaller things, while ignoring bigger issues. Our mosque committee had to take their views into account because their opinions were not totally out of tune with Hadiths and also because the mosque financially depended on their contributions, especially during Ramaddan etc. So we always had to have long discussions and convincing to do with them, always appointed a Saudi as financial officer and had an implicit agreement with them that formally we deal with non-Muslim groups to prevent misunderstandings etc.
Why I am saying this, because I think those Muslims are our brothers and we need to help them when they are aggressors and when ther are oppressed - help them in resisting the oppression by the media, by US/EU imperialists and their own governments, and help them by preventing their unjustified aggression or unjustified incitement of hatred to innocent people...

I understand you very well. Different people, different opinions, different education and different grown-up environments. And I do agree with your words about Saudians, it is hard to convince them on something. I know this things very well. Everybody makes a mistake, show me any person without any mistake, without any sin. But the things your forgot, or may be did not pay attention, is that we should not start naming each other with different names, if we do not agree in certain points. Today we can see muslims calling each other with different names, no need to go far, just the program mentioned above. That is what the enemies of Islam want: to divide us into several groups and destroy us. That is why we should not play the game by their rules, like distancing ourselves with the muslims with whom we do not agree in some points, calling them with different names, accusing each other, blaming each other and etc. We should play the game with our own rules, i.e. Islamic rules, correct each other, not to disclose our mistakes before others eyes, not to insult each others, show other part’s mistakes politely and humbly, listen to the scholars not to media, always check what the western media brings and etc.

You are right that we need to help them, or may be they need to help us. This is like a football. We muslims are one team, whether we want it or not. The Coach selected us to play in one team. At the moment the team is disorganised, not as good as previous players played in this team, not as skilled as they were and many players do not know well how to play, and do not follow the ones who play better. What we are doing now? If one player plays bad, or scores a goal to his own gate, we start to distance ourselves from him, start to call him with different names, tell to the opponents that we are not in one team, that our team is not bad, that he does not represent the whole team and etc. If one player plays bad, or if we think he is playing bad, instead of showing and advising how to play right, we go and kick in between his legs, and say “he is not from my team”, or we do not pass the ball to him if even he stands in better position. Whether we want it or not, we are on one team called “Muslims”. If one does not want to be in one team with Ben Laden, then he can leave Muslim team. But shouting and insulting Ben Laden does not help the team. Also apologising your opponents for what other team-mate did, even it is a disputable situation, and asking you to kick your ass instead of him, or to offer them to score a goal for them for your own gates are not right tactics and do not bring to our team any benefit. It is better to advice those bad players, call them to play according what is written on “Rule Book” of the game, and if they do not listen to you, call other team mates not to be like them. But in no case we should start insulting and fighting each other (which we (muslims) are doing right now), bow our heads, feel guilty for others deeds.

I hope you got my point. We always have to improve our conditions, help our brothers to understand their mistakes, debate with them if it is necessary, but in no way follow the rules which are against us.

I have no problem you not agreeing with those imams. But it is not correct start to label them with different names, especially originated by the enemies of Islam, when some non-muslims ask your opinion.

That is my humble opinion brother. Sorry if I misunderstood you. I want the same goodness which I want to myself.

[referee]

Brother, I am not saying that you put those people out of Islam, but simply you are singing the song written by the enemies of Islam.

I am aware of songs that our enemies would like us to sing, but if you ignore those altogether then you may be in danger of living in denial. My aim is not to join in the choir of our enemies, but try to understand why it is damaging us. Muslims in the past ignored or downlooked their enemies on a number of occasions and had to pay terrible price, you may recall Mongols' devastating invasion.

But the things your forgot, or may be did not pay attention, is that we should not start naming each other with different names, if we do not agree in certain points.


Without using names is a bit difficult to discuss problems, especially if Saudis ascribe themselves to a special group. And what term should we use to discuss them amongst ourselves?

Today we can see muslims calling each other with different names, no need to go far, just the program mentioned above. That is what the enemies of Islam want: to divide us into several groups and destroy us. That is why we should not play the game by their rules, like distancing ourselves with the muslims with whom we do not agree in some points, calling them with different names, accusing each other, blaming each other and etc.


You are right that is their intention - to divide and rule. But what shall we do? What do you do when imams, such as those flimed, try to draw harsh and arbitrary lines within Muslim community because they think if people don't act 100% in line, then they are not with us but against? You can see divisions in Iraq caused by US/UK and happily adopted by Iraqies.
My point is that social/philosophical divisions in our community are inevitable in today's world with our enemies working hard on it, but we should try to reconcile those divisions by building bridges, stressing our commonality, and strengthening our deen. This is what today's imam's should be doing! They should be sweet-tonged and heart-melting scholars, reconcilers, mediators, builders and leaders. And by watching this film, which is an obvious piece of spin, no imam comes out with such qualities. I was glad to see that in their post-docu interviews, they tried to correct their acts.


I have no problem you not agreeing with those imams. But it is not correct start to label them with different names, especially originated by the enemies of Islam, when some non-muslims ask your opinion.


Brother, the misunderstanding may come from your misunderstood perception of this forum imho. In no way do I see this forum as a hostile environment to Muslims, so therefore I debate and discuss our, Muslim issues, here in an open and honest manner. Raising issues and discussing them here is like talking about them amongst Muslims. If they can't get their answers from here, they'd get them from elsewhere (perhaps sources worse than dispatches).

I know there are atheists, agnostics and other users roaming the forum, but through addressing their stereotypes, prejudices or misunderstandings we could make a tiny contribution to unlocking their minds and hearts, imho. In short, I don't see them as "enemies" but as potential allies and friends. And if we can't convince our countrymen here, then what are the chances of convincing our antagonists from more hostile lands, like US and EU. So let's be more confident in the Truth, because it bends any lies and propaganda, sooner or later, inshallah...

[infolife]

Funny when a person does not like a Pakistani he is immediately called racist, but it is ok to hate other nations for following another religion. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Thinking out loud. :rolleyes:
Funny some people don't know it's stupid to generalize a nation

Did he say he doesnt like a Pakistani called Arshad, Asma or Saima?

Can you differentiate between

I dont like such and such(describing them) Pakistanis and Pakistanis have no culture and uneducated?

Now, I do agree that most Pakistanis living in the UK have serious problems: forced marriages, domestic violence, abuse female rights in the family or high rates of unemployment and most of them sit on benefit. Certainly true. But all of this could be said about uzbeks as well. Does that mean uzbeks have no culture then.?
Or uzbek culture is half Russian cos they've lived under Soviet Russia for nearly a century.

All nations have problems. i think it's wrong to judge the whole nation based on some of the individuals you came accross from that nation.

ps:you seem to think I'm taking their side cos Pakistanis are muslims?:rolleyes: being a pakistani doesnt mean being a muslim. i have met christian pakistanis, and shiites and am sure there are atheist pakistanis as well.i dont hate anyone just for the fact they are not muslims or like anyone just for the fact they bear a name of a certain group/nation who follow my religion.

[melo]

Funny some people don't know it's stupid to generalize a nation

Did he say he doesnt like a Pakistani called Arshad, Asma or Saima?

Can you differentiate between

I dont like such and such(describing them) Pakistanis and Pakistanis have no culture and uneducated?

Now, I do agree that most Pakistanis living in the UK have serious problems: forced marriages, domestic violence, abuse female rights in the family or high rates of unemployment and most of them sit on benefit. Certainly true. But all of this could be said about uzbeks as well. Does that mean uzbeks have no culture then.?
Or uzbek culture is half Russian cos they've lived under Soviet Russia for nearly a century.

All nations have problems. i think it's wrong to judge the whole nation based on some of the individuals you came accross from that nation.

ps:you seem to think I'm taking their side cos Pakistanis are muslims?:rolleyes: being a pakistani doesnt mean being a muslim. i have met christian pakistanis, and shiites and am sure there are atheist pakistanis as well.i dont hate anyone just for the fact they are not muslims or like anyone just for the fact they bear a name of a certain group/nation who follow my religion.

I think you are taking their side because your friends are pakistani. :cool:

Obviously it is stupid to classify people by their nationality or ethnicity. You can not make the claim that they are all stupid or evil or whatever. Can I get this same curtesy? :D

[UzLand]

Funny some people don't know it's stupid to generalize a nation

Did he say he doesnt like a Pakistani called Arshad, Asma or Saima?

If you read it carefully, I said "not everyone, of course", Didn't I say that?

Pakistan has been a nation state longer than Uzbekistan, but believe me, Uzbeks have far richer culture and history, that's why we can't, can't, can't say that about Uzbeks.

Of course, you can say that for the sake of defending Pakistanis, but then it would look stupid, wouldn't it?

[Ahmet]

SA dear brothers and sisters,

I don't know how that would be in other countries but here in Germany, every time when Media attacks Islam (by different means of;TV,Press...) the number of new converts (Germans) is increasing.

As an example, I've recently talked to some of them (in order to find out what the reason and why they'd choosen Islam). They told me openly most of them were real "Islamhaters" before but "somehow" they'd found out the meaning of this life and what would happen after. And they noted, one of the reasons was "special negative information" through media and s.o.

At the end, one of them made a note: Every time when western media attacks Islam, 1 "Moslem" (who doesn't live Islam) leaves Islam but at the same time 10 Nonmoslems (germans) are ready to get converted to Islam...

[Maroon]

Funny some people don't know it's stupid to generalize a nation

Did he say he doesnt like a Pakistani called Arshad, Asma or Saima?

Can you differentiate between

I dont like such and such(describing them) Pakistanis and Pakistanis have no culture and uneducated?

Now, I do agree that most Pakistanis living in the UK have serious problems: forced marriages, domestic violence, abuse female rights in the family or high rates of unemployment and most of them sit on benefit. Certainly true. But all of this could be said about uzbeks as well. Does that mean uzbeks have no culture then.?
Or uzbek culture is half Russian cos they've lived under Soviet Russia for nearly a century.

All nations have problems. i think it's wrong to judge the whole nation based on some of the individuals you came accross from that nation.

ps:you seem to think I'm taking their side cos Pakistanis are muslims?:rolleyes: being a pakistani doesnt mean being a muslim. i have met christian pakistanis, and shiites and am sure there are atheist pakistanis as well.i dont hate anyone just for the fact they are not muslims or like anyone just for the fact they bear a name of a certain group/nation who follow my religion.

My post was directed to everyone actually. I think it is wrong as well to judge this or that nation . My point was that generally in this forum, and in particular in the Religion Board a lot start insulting particular nations because he/she belongs to a certain religious group. I think it is wrong by many users to judge for example Jews, because like you said every nation has good and bad people and some stereotypes are true while some are simply wrong. I am can be prejudice as well, like everyone else, but there are limits to everything.

A lot of us call each other racist and prejudice but the ironic thing is, we ourselves are too. That was my actual point.


Anyway, I did not want to offend you in any way and I apologize if I did.

Ciao.

[infolife]

I think you are taking their side because your friends are pakistani. :cool:

True, but not all.

Obviously it is stupid to classify people by their nationality or ethnicity. You can not make the claim that they are all stupid or evil or whatever. Can I get this same curtesy? :D

Americans are really ignorant and violent:lol: they have no culture at all:lol:

Uzland,
I don wanna drag this.To Be honest, you have put the wrong statement in your post by saying Pakistanis have no culture,blah,blah

You shoulda said, most Pakistanis I've met in life are uneducated,blah,blah.
And I can say that too, most of them are very lazy.

peace

[UzLand]

Americans are really ignorant and violent:lol: they have no culture at all:lol:

True:D :twisted:

[infolife]

if any of you interested what was the public response to it in the UK
go to http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=1066

[Vector]

to be honest i don't like Pakistanis as well although a few of them are good and educated. Most of them try to cheat, pretending to be good muslim, uneducated, nasty, they have hell a lot of issues, etc...don't like them.

[SAMARKANDI!]

to be honest i don't like Pakistanis as well although a few of them are good and educated. Most of them try to cheat, pretending to be good muslim, uneducated, nasty, they have hell a lot of issues, etc...don't like them.

This is kinda strange, Although I haven't lived in UK and didnt really experience much with Pakis there but seeing them around, I have known some of them in US, they are kinda decent people:D educated, working, successful if u will or it is just me:D

[melo]

Americans are really ignorant and violent:lol: they have no culture at all:lol:


True

I appreciate the support guys. :P

[Maroon]

Uzbeks aint better. :lol:

[anatoliydaev]

I appreciate the support guys. :P

We all hate amerikanz. Zat iz why we watch hollywood moviz, listen amerikan muzik, drink kola and pepsi and most importantly we want tu migrate tu the state of amerikanz! Bekoz we hate low kultural pipl! :D

[Maroon]

We all hate amerikanz. Zat iz why we watch hollywood moviz, listen amerikan muzik, drink kola and pepsi and most importantly we want tu migrate tu the state of amerikanz! Bekoz we hate low kultural pipl! :D

Xixixi. Half forumers are In Uk or US.. The Satan himself. They work there, make their dollars and pounds, eat there food , live there, breath their, support their economy, use their roads but after all this they say they hate them. THEN DONT GO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY DID NOT U GO AND WORK SOMEHWERE IN THE MIDDLE EAST OR SOME ASIAN COUNTRY. GREAT LOGIC. NE BLAGODARNIE VI! :rolleyes:

[anatoliydaev]

Xixixi. Half forumers are In Uk or US.. The Satan himself. They work there, make their filthy dollars and pounds, eat there food , live there, breath their, support their economy, use their roads but after all this they say they hate them. THEN DONT GO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY DID NOT U GO AND WORK SOMEHWERE IN THE MIDDLE EAST OR SOME ASIAN COUNTRY. GREAT LOGIC. NE BLAGODARNIE VI! :rolleyes:
Bekoz it is gut in the kantry of amerikanz and we want to live a gut life after wot amerikans did tu us. In ze end we will okupy the amerikanz kantry and do Islamic Khalifat of Amerika! They are no kultural pipl! We must fite!

[Maroon]

Bekoz it is gut in the kantry of amerikanz and we want to live a gut life after wot amerikans did tu us. In ze end we will okupy the amerikanz kantry and do Islamic Khalifat of Amerika! They are no kultural pipl! We must fite!

Ja ja. Erst we machen kaput Mcdonalds und go zu Spielberg haus und also kaput machen, gut yes?

[Shokirbek]

Istehzo ham evi bilanda, do'stlar..
So'z erkinligi deb og'izga kelgan narsani aytaverasilarmi?
O'zlaring go'yo demokratiya dunyoda gullab yashnayotgandek, inson huquqlarini Amerikaliklar juda qo'riqlayotgandek gapirasilara..
Buyog'iga endi jiddiy gapirmasanglar mavzu yopiladi..

[Royal]

Yopilishidan oldin bir savolde hammani mulohazasi uchun:

Birinchi bop Tovuq paydo boganmi yoki Tuhum ???

oz fikrilani ilmie tarzda tasdiqlab bersayla yanayam yahshi bolardi...

[SAMARKANDI!]

Xixixi. Half forumers are In Uk or US.. The Satan himself. They work there, make their dollars and pounds, eat there food , live there, breath their, support their economy, use their roads but after all this they say they hate them. THEN DONT GO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY DID NOT U GO AND WORK SOMEHWERE IN THE MIDDLE EAST OR SOME ASIAN COUNTRY. GREAT LOGIC. NE BLAGODARNIE VI! :rolleyes:

Keep your friends close but your enimies closer;) deganlar ekan bita Boboy:lol:

[bacha]

Horrible.
In a century of science, technology and knowledge these idiots are preaching hostility and male supremacy.

[anatoliydaev]

Ja ja. Erst we machen kaput Mcdonalds und go zu Spielberg haus und also kaput machen, gut yes?
No, ae are not nemis or fascists! We will no doing kaput but we will make Amerika live in Sharia Laws! We like Spilberg moviz, we like MakDonald!

[bacha]

No, ae are not nemis or fascists! We will no doing kaput but we will make Amerika live in Sharia Laws! We like Spilberg moviz, we like MakDonald!
Unfortunately those preachers have similar logic and intellectual capability as you do. As you are now mocking them, they mock non-muslims, the bad thing is that you don`t have the cell-phone number of God, but they claim that they do.

[Maroon]

Unfortunately those preachers have similar logic and intellectual capability as you do. As you are now mocking them, they mock non-muslims, the bad thing is that you don`t have the cell-phone number of God, but they claim that they do.

Saying that they are cruel and them saying that 10 girls should be hit if they do not wear the hijab at that age are somewhat different my friend.

[Shokirbek]

Mavzu yopildi.