Lets Talk About Bible. Increase Debate Skills!!!

[Uyyonli]

I know majority of the forum user's are Muslim, and it is important to know about the Bible to Muslim and Crestians. I Islam views Crestians as the followers of the Prophet Jesus SalAlohu Alaihi WaSallam. We can that way talk about the wars, disasters, and why did all that happened and how those wars have been solved, then we can also see and compare the solutions to the suni/shia conflict. So anybody have a bible? If u have a Bible if you read the Bible and Quran then u can always come up with upper hand in some debates.

[Sagittarius]

Bible was first historical text book. Really must-read book. In historic and 'Jews life' point of view it seems more interesting than Quran. However if we compare Bible and Quran are similar.

Vethoviy zavet manga ko'proq yoqadi.

[UzLand]

Bible was first historical text book. Really must-read book. In historic and 'Jews life' point of view it seems more interesting than Quran. However if we compare Bible and Quran are similar.

Vethoviy zavet manga ko'proq yoqadi.

I would argue about the historical part. Sodom and Homorra are real history:D

There is this story about Dead Seas scrolls. Some say that right after WWII in the Dead Sea palestinians found old scrolls. Some say those are the scripts torn from the original Bible and that today's Bible has been changed many times.

As is known, St. Paul is the founder of Christianity. However during Jesus' time he was pretty bad, persecuting Jesus' followers and then it was said he got some revelation and began preaching Christianity.

However those, who advocate the scrolls, say Paul changed the verses to make it suitable for Romans who didn't like some rules in the Bible. Paul is blamed for allegedly having softened the Bible to make it acceptable for many people.

And it is said that Vatican has been very critical of the scrolls saying they never belonged to the original Bible.

[UzLand]

Crestians

Бу нима дегани?:)

[Maroon]

I would argue about the historical part. Sodom and Homorra are real history:D

There is this story about Dead Seas scrolls. Some say that right after WWII in the Dead Sea palestinians found old scrolls. Some say those are the scripts torn from the original Bible and that today's Bible has been changed many times.

As is known, St. Paul is the founder of Christianity. However during Jesus' time he was pretty bad, persecuting Jesus' followers and then it was said he got some revelation and began preaching Christianity.

However those, who advocate the scrolls, say Paul changed the verses to make it suitable for Romans who didn't like some rules in the Bible. Paul is blamed for allegedly having softened the Bible to make it acceptable for many people.

And it is said that Vatican has been very critical of the scrolls saying they never belonged to the original Bible.

Christianity is the work of Paul, and Roman Emperor (forgot his name, lazy to look up). There were a lot of different Jesus followers but once the Romans converted to the Christianity we know now the others were abolished. There were a lot of Gospels sent to Egypt to get burned and some are hidden in the Vatican itself. Rumor says that the Vatican hides the gospel of Judah.

One interesting fact is that, it is said that Jesus Christ's birthday is on the 25th of December but there was a Roman goddess who's birthday was celebrated on that day, and it is said that the Romans changed it to Jesus birthday instead after they "converted"

There was one gospel found in Egypt which is half ruined but scientists could read some of it. I do not remember who's exactly it was. I would have to check.

So, who knows the real teaching of Jesus. There is a lot in Modern Christianities History that we do not know about.

[UzLand]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/dead_sea_scrolls/

[Akhee-Abdullah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/dead_sea_scrolls/


Uzland aka-mana shu videoni bir kuring : ) originalini olib : )

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5155833772371431915&q=%22historical+jesus%22

YouTube - Jesus Christ Peace be upon him

[Vector]

i think that's why Quran came after Bible been corrupted/changed.

[UzLand]

Uzland aka-mana shu videoni bir kuring : ) originalini olib : )

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=5155833772371431915&q=%22historical+jesus%22

http://youtube.com/watch?v=odSJhwDc_zM

Exactly, after Jesus Christians were preached wrongly that Jesus was God's son and later holy spirit was added to make a trinity.

Christians are wrong in saying that humans have an original sin. Humans are not born with sin, they acquire it during their life-time.

They were also wrongly preached that Jesus was crucified, because if God loved him he would not let him be crucified. And he was not. He was take to heaven and a criminal was crucified and christians now wear a cross with the wrong image...they worship the cross, not God...even porno stars wear the cross. The more objects of worship is created the farther people move away from God and the more objects are out there to bring shame on God.

[SAMARKANDI!]

The work of wicked "christian originators" are becoming so obvious nowadays that christians are already in panic:D asking themselves "should we change our 2000 old history/belief" kinda tough but inevitable:cool: Because Truth will sooner or later surface itself as Allah promised.

In fact there was no christianity in the first place

[SAMARKANDI!]

Exactly, after Jesus Christians were preached wrongly that Jesus was God's son and later holy spirit was added to make a trinity.

Christians are wrong in saying that humans have an original sin. Humans are not born with sin, they acquire it during their life-time.

They were also wrongly preached that Jesus was crucified, because if God loved him he would not let him be crucified. And he was not. He was take to heaven and a criminal was crucified and christians now wear a cross with the wrong image...they worship the cross, not God...even porno stars wear the cross. The more objects of worship is created the farther people move away from God and the more objects are out there to bring shame on God.

Ehe Uzland bu nima insipation keldimi?:) Ha bolarakanku odamga oshab gapirilsa shuncha narsalarni bilasakan, "ishonasakan" nima qilasiz qiy chuw qilib:D Yahshi gap bopti rahmat.

[melo]

I don't see this as much of a "debate" Don't you need two sides and someone who actually knows something about Christianity? Is this how Uzbek government "debates" work? :lol: :lol:

[UzLand]

I don't see this as much of a "debate" Don't you need two sides and someone who actually knows something about Christianity? Is this how Uzbek government "debates" work? :lol: :lol:

Being a Christian doesn't make you more knowledgeable on this issue.

[melo]

Being a Christian doesn't make you more knowledgeable on this issue.

I don't understand your logic. So a bunch of people who already don't believe that Christianity makes any sense can do justice to debating the truths of chirstianity? :lol: Obviously most christians know as much about their religion as most muslims, but yes, a person who knows about the religion and actually believes it would add tremendously to the "debate".:rolleyes:

[Frida]

you should get rid of the second part of this topic. or better, "lets bitch about Bible" alone would be even better.
on topic: do not you think it would be actually better to chose a part from a Bible and Koran on a specific topic, lets say, choose the pillars of Islam and Ten commandments of Christianity. or something else, I mean there are hundreds of topics that would make it a Debate, and help people to see both sides.
Otherwise, we are being ethnocentric here.

[Maroon]

The work of wicked "christian originators" are becoming so obvious nowadays that christians are already in panic:D asking themselves "should we change our 2000 old history/belief" kinda tough but inevitable:cool: Because Truth will sooner or later surface itself as Allah promised.

In fact there was no christianity in the first place

So according to your logic, if Christianity did not exist like you are saying, then the fact that Quran mentions them as "People of the Book" would mean that the Quran is wrong too?

It is one thing saying that the Bible has mistakes but another thing when people say that it is wrong fully because that would mean that some parts of the Quran is wrong too.

Just curious.

[Aziz]

some facts about the Bible:
1- The Bible itself does not have the word "Bible" in it, but the Qur'an has it.
2- The original scripture were lost during the Babylonian exile, and it was rewritten from what people have memorized.
3- There is no mention of trinity in the Bible, the Qur'an mentioned it.
4- There is no present edition of the Bible in its original language which is Aramaic.
5- Different Christian groups have different editions of the Bible.

[SAMARKANDI!]

So according to your logic, if Christianity did not exist like you are saying, then the fact that Quran mentions them as "People of the Book" would mean that the Quran is wrong too?

It is one thing saying that the Bible has mistakes but another thing when people say that it is wrong fully because that would mean that some parts of the Quran is wrong too.

Just curious.

Hmmm, how can i put it clear and short....well see the present day christianity was made up through many different steps of human inventions into "THE Religion" and the religion was not christianity it was Islam. In your understanding perhaps Islam came with the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, but in fact Islam started with Adam and Eva pbut, "people of the books" are also "SUPPOSED TO BE MUSLIMS" since books were sent by Allah to His prophets and the people around them who were Muslims (name MUSLIM was commonly used long after that but in essence it means person who submits himself to Allah, which makes it that Juses, Moses, Adam pbut were all muslims). Thus the people of the books were muslims but later their turned into shirk with their own inovations.

I hope it was smth to shed some light into your question. ( i am at work)

Another thing i wanted to point out is that Islam (which comes from the root word of salam which in turn means "peace), the religion of PEACE, didn't come with the Prophet Muhammad pbuh in the 7th century, rather It made its final/last announcement, declaration, form, message with the last messanger on earth. And the religion of peace started with Adam pbuh, continued with Moses.....Juses....pbuh..ended with Muhammad peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and it was for their followers "people of the book"

[Pilsner]

Injilni ozgargartirib yuborishgan hmm, agar Injilni yahshi tahlil qilselar oldingi yozilgan narsani inkor qilishi ham mukin, madomiki Injil diniy kitob hisoblanar ekan demak u hatosiz va mukammal bolishi kerak.

[Aziz]

So according to your logic, if Christianity did not exist like you are saying, then the fact that Quran mentions them as "People of the Book" would mean that the Quran is wrong too?

It is one thing saying that the Bible has mistakes but another thing when people say that it is wrong fully because that would mean that some parts of the Quran is wrong too.

Just curious.


No Muslim says that the Bible is fully wrong.
The Bible have been modified and changed several times during history, Christian themselves admit that.

[Maroon]

No Muslim says that the Bible is fully wrong.
The Bible have been modified and changed several times during history, Christian themselves admit that.

I know that Aziz. But my question was directed to Samarkandis post. I am aware of Christian History. Thanks though

, and it was rewritten from what people have memorized.

Something similar could be applied to the Hadith as well.

[SAMARKANDI!]

Something similar could be applied to the Hadith as well.

Thats why Prophet Muhammad pbuh said "if u hear or read smth that doesnt make sense and which is weak, then know it was not said by my" which means it was fabricated.


Thats why Many things in hadith are Sunnah not Fard. Sunnah valuntary, Fard obligatory

[Maroon]

Thats why Prophet Muhammad pbuh said "if u hear or read smth that doesnt make sense and which is weak, then know it was not said by my" which means it was fabricated.


Thats why Many things in hadith are Sunnah not Fard. Sunnah valuntary, Fard obligatory

And what about the Sharia?

[Aziz]

Something similar could be applied to the Hadith as well.

you can refer to the conditions of true, good, weak, and wrong hadiths established by scholars of Islam. In Islam we have something called "Ilm Al-Rejal" which means the knowledge of men, we have also "Ilm Aljarh wa Alta'adil" which is concerned about the qualification or disqualification of hadith narrators. That is beside the conditions of Al-Bukhari and Muslim of authorizing a hadith. In Islam we have a complete biography about every single hadith narrator, so we don't accept hadith narrated by anyone. Does Christians have anything similar?


about Muslims and Bible:
First and foremost, let me be perfectly clear on the position of Muslims regarding the authenticity of the Holy Bible. It is a condition of faith for believers to believe in all of God's Books and scripture as stipulated by the Quran, the Last and Final Testament from Almighty God to mankind, that the previous scriptures, including of course the Old Testament (Arabic = Torah), the Psalms (Arabic = Zabur) and the New Testament (Arabic = Injeel) were all from Almighty God (Arabic = Allah) in their original form. The beginning verses of the Quran clearly spell out the position of the 'Believer' with regard to these scriptures. As the translation from Arabic may be rendered regarding the conditions of believers:

"And they (believers) believe in what is being sent down to you (Muhammad, peace be upon him) and they believe in what has been sent down before (previous Holy scriptures to Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, and of course Jesus, peace be upon them all)." [Quran 2:2,3]

Therefore, it must be established that Muslims do accept that Almighty Allah did send down many Holy Books and he did allow the people to alter, change, delete and make additions to these Books, and as such, they can not longer be considered as the "Word of God" in their present condition. This is something immediately agreed upon by all qualified Biblical scholars.


source (http://www.islamcode.com/bible/bible_closer_look_ch2.html)

[Aziz]

And what about the Sharia?


Sharia is based on Qur'an and Sunnah...what about it?

[SAMARKANDI!]

And what about the Sharia?

Shariah is a combination of Quran and Hadith or Fard and Sunnah transformed into legal system. It is adopted by governments as their legal system that encompasses their social, political economic lives. Simply put.

Ulamahs, Shaykhs, Imams in other words scholars of Islam decide what is supposed to be in Shariah and how it should operate. And the Scholars of Islam are the favored, respected supported-by-the-population people, otherwise they wouldnt hold that status.

Like our own Shayhk, do u know him, how he is so supported and respected? these kind of people decide that. But in general they or anyone else can NOT overturn obvious Quranic laws or valid Hadiths, they go deep into details (such issues as how female should be covered, open, face half open face, or covered face) like every other Judge, Justice, Jury. Example they can not say, we have to make prayer 4 times a day instead of 5 times because of work. No such thing

[Maroon]

Ha yahshi.

I did not even know we had a Sheikh. :lol:

[SAMARKANDI!]

Ha yahshi.

I did not even know we had a Sheikh. :lol:

seriously or u r just teasing?:shock:

[Maroon]

seriously or u r just teasing?:shock:

Do I look like a person who is interested in the Sheikhs?

Ghm......nu eto tipa glavniy Imam? On chto-li?

[SAMARKANDI!]

Do I look like a person who is interested in the Sheikhs?

Ghm......nu eto tipa glavniy Imam? On chto-li?

:D yeah he is super duper Imam. His pictures are all over inside US embassy:lol: :lol: He lived in Saudi Arabia for a while (had some problems with the Freak), then came back, he comes to US often. He simply travels all over the world for speechs. My brother wanted to catch him the other day he was gone to Some Asian country.

Ask people about him, extremaly respected, famous Shaykh in Islamic World. One of the few Best.;)

[UzLand]

I don't understand your logic. So a bunch of people who already don't believe that Christianity makes any sense can do justice to debating the truths of chirstianity? :lol: Obviously most christians know as much about their religion as most muslims, but yes, a person who knows about the religion and actually believes it would add tremendously to the "debate".:rolleyes:

The existence of the Dead Sea scrolls make the authencity of the Bible dubious. The Koran on the contrary never had such a reputation. So what's to debate about?

The Koranic verses were collected by Muhammad's followers.

The Bible was compiled by Paul who hated Jesus during his lifetime and persecuted his followers.

Oh, Ten Commandments - eye for an eye? That's what happening in Iraq - a pretty biblical scenario.

And different Christian groups interpret the Bible differently and preach different versions of it. Which ones do you believe?

[melo]

The existence of the Dead Sea scrolls make the authencity of the Bible dubious. The Koran on the contrary never had such a reputation. So what's to debate about?

The Koranic verses were collected by Muhammad's followers.

The Bible was compiled by Paul who hated Jesus during his lifetime and persecuted his followers.

Oh, Ten Commandments - eye for an eye? That's what happening in Iraq - a pretty biblical scenario.

And different Christian groups interpret the Bible differently and preach different versions of it. Which ones do you believe?

I am no expert on the bible. I am not saying I should debate it. I was saying someone who knew something about it should debate it. Also, the ten commandants have nothing to do with eye for an eye.

[UzLand]

I am no expert on the bible. I am not saying I should debate it. I was saying someone who knew something about it should debate it. Also, the ten commandants have nothing to do with eye for an eye.

right, but it is in the bible...

[Black]

Christianity is the work of Paul, and Roman Emperor (forgot his name, lazy to look up). There were a lot of different Jesus followers but once the Romans converted to the Christianity we know now the others were abolished. There were a lot of Gospels sent to Egypt to get burned and some are hidden in the Vatican itself. Rumor says that the Vatican hides the gospel of Judah.

The famous Roman Emeror - the founder of current Cristianity was Constantin, the founder of Constantinopol. But the funny thing is that, he himself was not a Cristian. He was baptized (became cristian) after his death. LOL. What a funny thing did Cristian clerics- converted someone who is dead.


One interesting fact is that, it is said that Jesus Christ's birthday is on the 25th of December but there was a Roman goddess who's birthday was celebrated on that day, and it is said that the Romans changed it to Jesus birthday instead after they "converted"

25th of December was the birthday of Roman Sun "God", the main "god" of all roman "gods". Romans (more correctly Emperor Constantin) changed it to Jesus a.s. birthday. Poor cristians, they even do not know what are they celebrating. But some cristian groups of England reject this pagan holiday.

There was one gospel found in Egypt which is half ruined but scientists could read some of it. I do not remember who's exactly it was. I would have to check.

The Gospel of Barnabas, there were many debates about it.

[melo]

The famous Roman Emeror - the founder of current Cristianity was Constantin, the founder of Constantinopol. But the funny thing is that, he himself was not a Cristian. He was baptized (became cristian) after his death. LOL. What a funny thing did Cristian clerics- converted someone who is dead.

25th of December was the birthday of Roman Sun "God", the main "god" of all roman "gods". Romans (more correctly Emperor Constantin) changed it to Jesus a.s. birthday. Poor cristians, they even do not know what are they celebrating. But some cristian groups of England reject this pagan holiday.


I would like to point out that Christianity is not the only religion that uses pagan rituals and converts them into religious ones. The Kaaba might be a good example. And can anyone explain why Muslims stopped praying towards Mecca instead of Jerusalem? Sorry, but God is infalible and he does not change his mind based on current events. I find lots of these posts hypocritical. Rituals such as prayer 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, and praying towards the Kaaba also came from star worshipers living in the area. This is how religions are created. It is based off of standard customs of people in order to help them find God. Not many people are willing to convert away from all their ideas and customs instantly.

[Joha]

I would like to point out that Christianity is not the only religion that uses pagan rituals and converts them into religious ones. The Kaaba might be a good example. And can anyone explain why Muslims stopped praying towards Mecca instead of Jerusalem? Sorry, but God is infalible and he does not change his mind based on current events. I find lots of these posts hypocritical. Rituals such as prayer 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, and praying towards the Kaba also came from star worshipers living in the area. This is how religions are created. It is based off of standard customs of people in order to help them find God. Not many people are willing to convert away from all their ideas and customs instantly.

PART 1

There have been prophets in the past who have been “Jewish” by race as well as sent exclusively for the guidance of the Jews.

Even those prophets have found it necessary to “cease to follow” the example of the Jews.
Haven’t they? Please read Mark chapter 7. The disciples of Jesus “cease to follow” the example of the Jews. Jesus defends them!

Could a Christian blame Jesus for not following the example of the Jews? Had the “example of the Jews” been so perfect, would there be any need for any prophet to guide the Jews to the right path?

The prophet of Islam was neither “Jewish” by race, nor sent exclusively for the guidance of the Jews.

Mr. "atpaint" contention is that the prophet of Islam first tried to launch his movement by enlisting the support of the Christians and the Jews, and so he adopted their customs. Rejected by them, he turned to the pagan Arabs and sought to unite them.

[Joha]

PART 2

Why would a reformer seek the support of the foreigners in order to unite his own people? Adopting alien customs is more likely to alienate the indigenous people and cause them to resist his reforms.

Can Mr. "atpaint" name any successful reformist movement of the world that was launched by adopting the customs of the foreigners?

Leave aside the reformist movements. Has any movement of any kind been launched in the world that sought to unite the locals by adopting the customs of the foreigners?

Jews were the foreigners living in the land of the Arabs. Were they not? There were very few Jews living in Makkah where the Prophet of Islam first began preaching. Many beliefs and practices of Islam, like the appointment of the first Qibla and the fast of Ashura were established at that time.

[Joha]

PART 3


Why Similarity of customs among religions is not surprizing

This universe has only one God, He sent the same guidance to His messenger Moses, as He did to His messengers Jesus, and Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

It should be no surprise that the customs and rites established by the messengers are similar. Their source was the same.

Human beings, as also all beings created by God are the slaves of God. Arrogantly, the Jews pretend that God is their slave. They insist that God must not, cannot, and did not send guidance to any individual who did not belong to their race.

That God would be an unfair God, if He ignores all humanity and restricts guidance only to one tiny tribe does not ever occur to them. They try to always prove that all others have copied their beliefs and their customs.


Does God have the right to change His own Law?

Mr. "atpaint", if he is a Christian, would readily recognize God’s right to change His own law.

Christianity believes that God changed His mind, abrogated the “Old Testament” and its laws, and enacted a “New Testament” that radically changed the requirements of salvation. Reliance on the law is now a curse; a belief in the death of God (or the son of God) is henceforth enough for salvation!

Could a Christian have the gall to dispute the right of God to change the direction of the Qibla?


The Reasons for the change of Qibla

The Qibla is not merely a direction to face during the five obligatory prayers. It is a place to gather in a display of a brotherhood of mankind, and the equality of all human beings.

No other religion has a Qibla! The Hindus and the Jews do not believe in the equality of the human race. Hundreds of millions of human beings are considered untouchables by Hinduism.

Jews consider themselves to be the “chosen race”; all others are considered gentiles by them.

Christians accept this ridiculous claim of the Jews.

Islam is the only religion that declares all human beings to be equal. No race is superior to any other. There are no chosen ones!

The declaration of the brotherhood of mankind is not a mere lip service. The Hajj is the annual display of this equality of human beings. This living miracle of Islam has been put on display every single year since the last 14 centuries.

Makkah is the only town that qualifies to host this annual display of the miracle till the end of times.

[Joha]

PART 4

Why was the Qibla shifted from Jerusalem to Makkah

The shift of Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah is significant and symbolic.

The Israelites were given the means and opportunities to implement the laws of God on earth. Many Israelite prophets were granted empires and the political and military might.

But they declared themselves the chosen race, disparaged all others and forbade them to enter the religion of God.

They disobeyed and mocked the messengers of God, and even killed them. They committed these acts knowingly, willfully and out of defiance _ not out of ignorance, but rather out of arrogance. They considered themselves immune from any retribution from God.

They refused to be the servants of God; instead, they sought to turn God into their servant and their personal genie!

Their arrogance reached its height when they slandered Mary and plotted the murder of two messengers of God.

Mary was consecrated to God and was raised in their Sacred Temple. Miraculously she became pregnant. Tongues began wagging in every home. It was the greatest scandal of its time!

The new born infant spoke from the cradle in front of a large audience, and absolved his mother of any wrong doing. (Al-Quran 19: 27-33) That messenger of God, who proved his credentials right at his birth, lived among them all his life.

They recognized Jesus, knew fully well that he was the messiah and yet continued to slander Mary. They called Jesus an illegitimate child _ and continue to do so even to this day, murdered Prophet Yahya (John the Baptist) and even planned to murder Jesus.

That sealed their fate.

Those claiming to be the chosen ones were declared to be the “cursed ones” by the Almighty.

Jesus refers to them as "blind guides," "blind fools," extortionists, unclean, serpents, a brood of vipers, murderers, persecutors, and being full of iniquity, Mathew 23: 13-36

He declared that no more signs would be shown to them.

And [Jesus] sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation. Mar 8:12

The Quran concurs!

4:156 (We punished them) because of their rejection (of the messenger Jesus), and their atrocious utterances of slander against Mary

4:157 (We punished them because of) their (blatant and boastful) statement, “We killed Jesus, the son of Mary, the Massiah, the messenger of Allah!”

5:78 The disbelievers of the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus son of Mary. This is because they (disobeyed and) strayed beyond the bounds.

The change of Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah is a symbolic gesture.

It announced to the world that the people who call themselves the “chosen race” will henceforth be treated as the “cursed race”

That is why the Qibla was changed.

The history of the Israelites ever since the departure of Jesus bears ample proof of the cursed status of this self-styled “chosen race”

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Mat 24:2

[melo]

Joha, what happened to your fist post that quoted hadiths and supported my points? :lol: :lol: I am not here to support any particular view point. All I was saying is that all religions use paganistic rituals to help convert them into their religion.

And for whatever it is worth- I don't believe God makes mistakes and changes his views on things. God knows everything including the future.

[Joha]

Joha, what happened to your fist post that quoted hadiths and supported my points? :lol: :lol: I am not here to support any particular view point. All I was saying is that all religions use paganistic rituals to help convert them into their religion.

And for whatever it is worth- I don't believe God makes mistakes and changes his views on things. God knows everything including the future.

The Hadeeth you have mentioned are exactly what other so called Christian scholars tried to use as their base to proof your, mr "atpaint", point of view. I have started typing the article from Printout but noticed it is going to take long time. So i have cut short article and included points which concerns your point.

[Joha]

And for whatever it is worth- I don't believe God makes mistakes and changes his views on things. God knows everything including the future.

Do you mean Jesus is "fable" ? Do you want to imply that GOD cannot make mistake with Moses so it is IMPOSSIBLE for JESUS to be sent by GOD? Do you want to imply that GOD made mistake in creating Adam (male) and than decided to correct it with adding Eva (female) instead of one hermaphrodite individual? Or do you want to say that God changed his mind after creating Earth and decided to include humans, animals etc on it?

[melo]

Do you mean Jesus is "fable" ? Do you want to imply that GOD cannot make mistake with Moses so it is IMPOSSIBLE for JESUS to be sent by GOD? Do you want to imply that GOD made mistake in creating Adam (male) and than decided to correct it with adding Eva (female) instead of one hermaphrodite individual? Or do you want to say that God changed his mind after creating Earth and decided to include humans, animals etc on it?

This thread really isn't about my personal beliefs. You would need to open a seperate thread for that and I don't think I am interested because I already know my beliefs. It is not God who made mistakes. It is the humans. And God knew this and sent many prophets.

[Joha]

It is not God who made mistakes. It is the humans. And God knew this and sent many prophets.

Christianity believes that God changed His mind, abrogated the “Old Testament” and its laws, and enacted a “New Testament” that radically changed the requirements of salvation. Reliance on the law is now a curse; a belief in the death of God (or the son of God) is henceforth enough for salvation!

[melo]

Christianity believes that God changed His mind, abrogated the “Old Testament” and its laws, and enacted a “New Testament” that radically changed the requirements of salvation. Reliance on the law is now a curse; a belief in the death of God (or the son of God) is henceforth enough for salvation!

You are bsing this on the idea that God's word was ever put down in word correctly. Just because there were new ideas introduced in the new testament that changed ideas from the old testament does not prove anything. Humans make mistakes, sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally. None of the books you are listing were written or even read by the prophets you listed. Also a principal part of Jesus's message is that the religion at the time was not being practiced correctly. Muhammad made the same points. None of this can be correlated to God changing his mind. All mistakes have been made by humans. Why do you think God would ever change his mind???? Also, you don't understand my beliefs (nor is it relevant) so don't try to disprove them here.

[Joha]

You are bsing this on the idea that God's word was ever put down in word correctly. Just because there were new ideas introduced in the new testament that changed ideas from the old testament does not prove anything. Humans make mistakes, sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally. None of the books you are listing were written or even read by the prophets you listed. Also a principal part of Jesus's message is that the religion at the time was not being practiced correctly. Muhammad made the same points. None of this can be correlated to God changing his mind. All mistakes have been made by humans. Why do you think God would ever change his mind???? Also, you don't understand my beliefs (nor is it relevant) so don't try to disprove them here.

So than I don't see any point in your argument of "Qiblah direction change being not a decision of GOD?". If GOD changed prophets one after another that so the Qiblah. Can't remember of any Qiblah during lifetime of Lot, Noah!? Unless it is said in the Bible that Noah's or Lot's Qiblah was JERUSALEM :lol:

[melo]

So than I don't see any point in your argument of "Qiblah direction change being not a decision of GOD?". If GOD changed prophets one after another that so the Qiblah. Can't remember of any Qiblah during lifetime of Lot, Noah!? Unless it is said in the Bible that Noah's or Lot's Qiblah was JERUSALEM :lol:

Why did Muhammad pray towards Jerusalem? :shock: Even if it wasn't written anywhere- he did it for some reason. :rolleyes: You are not making any sense. You are now saying that people did not pray towards Jerusalem before and that God's first decision was that everyone should pray towards Mecca? The prophets were planned, not chosen based on events. You think that God has not planned all events that occurred or will occurr?

[Joha]

Why did Muhammad pray towards Jerusalem? :shock:

Why not?

Even if it wasn't written anywhere- he did it for some reason. :rolleyes:

I could not remember Gabriel delivering written orders from GOD ... People followed Prophets' orders while they themselves followed GOD's commands revealed to them.

You are now saying that people did not pray towards Jerusalem before and that God's first decision was that everyone should pray towards Mecca? The prophets were planned, not chosen based on events. You think that God has not planned all events that occurred or will occurr?

That is EXACTLY my point. DO YOU THINK THAT GOD HAS NOT PLANNED ALL EVENTS, INCLUDING CHANGE OF QIBLAH, THAT OCCURED OR WILL OCCURR?

I rest the case ...

[UzLand]

Thread номини бемалол "Joha-Atpaint мунозараси" га узгартириб куйсак булаверар экан.

[Joha]

Uzland, umumiy fikrga keldik shekilliy :)

[melo]

So I guess there is your answer Uzland. It would be very helpful to have a Christian on the thread if people are going to hold a "debate". When I confront the same questions about pagans and Islam there is no answer. Simply saying everything about Islam is logical while everything about other religions is flawed is not a "debate" without an opposing side. I am not here to tell truth from fiction. I was just pointing out the futility of this thread. Maybe you should invite back the former christian user on the forum (I can't remember his name). Or was this a way to find any possible christian users and then harass them. :lol:

Since we have no Pakistani users we could also debate why Uzbeks are better then Pakistanis here on the forum. Or wait, maybe we already did that. :lol:

[UzLand]

So I guess there is your answer Uzland. It would be very helpful to have a Christian on the thread if people are going to hold a "debate".

Not necessarily. I've been to many events in DC where local think-tanks talk about Islam. But not a single have I seen any Islamic scholar or just a Muslim expert in their midst.

[melo]

Not necessarily. I've been to many events in DC where local think-tanks talk about Islam. But not a single have I seen any Islamic scholar or just a Muslim expert in their midst.

That's DC thinking for you. :lol: :lol: :lol: It was built on a swamp. People always assume all the smartest people are there. I've never been convinced. Smart people stay away. :lol: It is more a void of intelligence with money and overwhelming firepower.

[referee]

I've been to many events in DC where local think-tanks talk about Islam. But not a single have I seen any Islamic scholar or just a Muslim expert in their midst.

That is because getting a visa to the US for a Muslim scholar has become a rarity of its own kind. So many good scholars and well-known experts were refused entrance visas or not let into the country, even on official invitations.

I guess those home-grown, anti-commie experts will magically be turned into home-grown, Islamic (anti-Islamic to be precise) experts. And that's how far American scholarship has gone so far, with some exceptions of good, old-time, American scholars...

[UzLand]

That's DC thinking for you.

This remark is completely irrelative. Whatever thinking it is, decisions are made in DC, not in Miami.

[melo]

This remark is completely irrelative. Whatever thinking it is, decisions are made in DC, not in Miami.

You just summed up the problem with the USA. :shock:

[UzLand]

You just summed up the problem with the USA. :shock:

Not just with the US. Each country has its own decision-making centers.

[melo]

Not just with the US. Each country has its own decision-making centers.

That was not the intention when this "democratic" nation was created. The authors of the constitution would not want to live here. Countries with strong central governments are inherently totalitarian (not democratic) The US has the strongest central government of any country I know with more rules and legal ways to do what they want. Hopefully other countries decision making centers are a little smarter. :cool:

[UzLand]

That was not the intention when this "democratic" nation was created. The authors of the constitution would not want to live here. Countries with strong central governments are inherently totalitarian (not democratic) The US has the strongest central government of any country I know with more rules and legal ways to do what they want. Hopefully other countries decision making centers are a little smarter. :cool:

Hey, that's all right. Lenin too didn't want the country to turn into what Stalin made of it. Uzbekistan will be different too:)

[melo]

Hey, that's all right. Lenin too didn't want the country to turn into what Stalin made of it. Uzbekistan will be different too:)

I know there is someone on the forum who would argue this, but Lenin would probably have killed Stalin for what he did to his vision. He totally destroyed any chance of it ever being a nation that would do anything without the incentive of fear. I feel the same about the American Continental Congress with this country and its leaders since 1950.

[real_life]

Thread номини бемалол "Joha-Atpaint мунозараси" га узгартириб куйсак булаверар экан.
endi bolsa "Uzland-atpaint" ga )
juda offtop bolib ketibdi...

[Black]

Ok guys, will you stop your off-top?

I would like to point out that Christianity is not the only religion that uses pagan rituals and converts them into religious ones. The Kaaba might be a good example. And can anyone explain why Muslims stopped praying towards Mecca instead of Jerusalem? Sorry, but God is infalible and he does not change his mind based on current events. I find lots of these posts hypocritical. Rituals such as prayer 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, and praying towards the Kaaba also came from star worshipers living in the area. This is how religions are created. It is based off of standard customs of people in order to help them find God. Not many people are willing to convert away from all their ideas and customs instantly.

Well, atpaint, there were some other user's replies regarding the questions how Islam came into being and rituals of Islam. I think you omitted (did not read) them.
Let me prove how wrong you are.
1. Islam, surprisingly to many people, is not the religion started from Muhammad :saws:, but it the original religion started from Adam a.s.
2. God sent different Prophets to different nations different times. But all of them taught and preached one religion-religion of God- Islam, which means "submission" (to God). They all called to the submission of the One and Only God. But it was the people, the nations of those Peophets (a.s.) who always betrayed and changed God’s religion. Islam is the final form of the religion sent by God and Muhammad :saws: is the last Prophets of the Prophets sent by God. That is why, there are some similarities of the rituals done by some Prophets and their followers.

3. God gave different Holy books to some Prophets, but always after the death of their prophets, people changed those books according to their desires and whims. But God knew this, i.e. He knew very well that those people would change the books. God sent new prophets and books not because He is fallible, but because it was His original plan to do it like this. So is with changing qiblah from Jerusalem to Mecca. It was not changed by Muhammad :saws: , but by God Himself. But, of course, it is difficult to explain it to someone who is not a muslim, he/she will never understand/admit that it was done by God, that it was His original plan, that he tested those people who were with His Messenger at that time: how many of them follow him after this change. It is like Prophet’s Journey to God when he (Prophet) was in Mecca. In one night, Muhammad :saws: first traveled to Jerusalem, then ascended (ko’tarildi) to God and then came back again. Not all followers of Muhammad could bear this test, some denounced their faith. The same with the change of Qiblah from Jerusalem to Mecca.

4. As I said above, Islam is the continuation of the teachings of all prophets starting from Adam to Jesus (p.b.u.t.). From what we know, all prophets had the similar prayers (rituals) like today’s muslims have: prayers (salat-namaz), fasting, hajj (pilgrimage), sacrifice an animal and etc. All these rituals originally done by one or another Prophet of God, but as times passed away after the death of a certain Prophet their prayers were forgotten partly or had been changed. We (Muslims) say that the best fasting is the David (a.s.)’s fast, who fasted one day and did not fast another day. So we know that fasting as a form of worship (ritual as you said) was there a long time before the last Prophet. Actually many Islamic worships (rituals), such as sacrifice an animal for God, making pilgrimage to Mecca roots back to prophet Abraham (Ibrohim), peace be upon him.
But you are wrong to say that “praying 5 times a day and fasting during Ramadan came from star worshipers living in the area”. Because.
1. Neither arabs, nor other people prayed (fixed) 5 times a day. Other prophets (many of whom in or nearby of Mecca, including the founders of Mecca and Kaaba Abraham and Ismail p.b.u.t.) prayed from 1 to 4 times before Muhammad a.s. It is a long story to tell who and how prayed and how many times prayed before our prophet. Besides I do not remember all details at the moment.
2. “Star worshippers” as you said, or pagans of Mecca did nt fast in Ramadan during the times of the last Prophet. When the order came from god to fast during the month of Ramadan, it was a new for them. As I said, there could be some other forms of fasting before it (fasting in Ramadan) was ordered, because, that is what used to do (to fast) other prophets and their followers before the final prophet came. This means fasting and praying came from God through His Prophets (pbut), not from idol worshipping pagans.
3. On the other hand, the celebration of the sun “god’s birthday”, as some historians admit, is a purely Roman pagan holiday, dedicated to honour the false sun “god”, who was the head of all “gods” (Like Greek Zeus). God is free from such fallible nature, i.e. being born. He is neither born nor gave a birth.


I personally think muslims should concentrate on learning their religion instead of discussing with other religions. My answer to atpaint was exclusive, because I wanted to show his misconceptions about Islam. If we learn our religion well enough, then we can answer other’s wrong claims or debate with them and show wrongness of their path. For this, we should first learn Islam.

[Sagittarius]

Black, knowing other religions is also very important.
in all religions we see cultural impact to religons like Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Christians made Jesus as God, since in Romans and Greeks there was "moda" to have baby from Gods. If daughter of one lord becomes pregnant from slave or "friend" she could easily blame the pregnancy to Gods. So we see that Romans also thought that God came to Maryam.

Something happening to Islam too. we are starting turn our cultural habits into mandatory islamic rituals.
Religion should be separated from culture. Culture belongs to particular nation, islam to everyone. If christians kept their religion pure, maybe...

[JOUBERAR]

Exactly, after Jesus Christians were preached wrongly that Jesus was God's son and later holy spirit was added to make a trinity.

Christians are wrong in saying that humans have an original sin. Humans are not born with sin, they acquire it during their life-time.

They were also wrongly preached that Jesus was crucified, because if God loved him he would not let him be crucified. And he was not. He was take to heaven and a criminal was crucified and christians now wear a cross with the wrong image...they worship the cross, not God...even porno stars wear the cross. The more objects of worship is created the farther people move away from God and the more objects are out there to bring shame on God.

:kill:Please do not get the prospective wrong if Jesus was'nt crucified were you there that time it has been writen for 2008 years if it was wrong then all the different countries where christianity were preached must at least have one page where it was writen that Jesus was not crucified why only in the quran it looks if muhamed or someone had made his own decision to say GOD would allow that and chanced the word of GOD which is not even the word of GOD and chanced his prophecy fullfilment into a lie.The best of all GOD is not permitted to have a son so we cant become children of GOD so muhammed is the one that prescribe to GOD if he can have a son or not.

REMEMBER GOD LOVE EVERY ONE EVEN MURDERES IF THEY REPENT.LOVE THE PERSON NOT THE DEED.
THOSE WHO ARE WITHOUT SIN THROW THE FIRST STONE.

YOU ARE BORN IN SIN AND NOT BORN WITH SIN OR TO SIN IS THAT MORE UNDERSTANDING

[Ahabba]

thanks for good info

[Abu-Hafiza]

:kill:Please do not get the prospective wrong if Jesus was'nt crucified were you there that time it has been writen for 2008 years if it was wrong then all the different countries where christianity were preached must at least have one page where it was writen that Jesus was not crucified why only in the quran it looks if muhamed or someone had made his own decision to say GOD would allow that and chanced the word of GOD which is not even the word of GOD and chanced his prophecy fullfilment into a lie.The best of all GOD is not permitted to have a son so we cant become children of GOD so muhammed is the one that prescribe to GOD if he can have a son or not.

REMEMBER GOD LOVE EVERY ONE EVEN MURDERES IF THEY REPENT.LOVE THE PERSON NOT THE DEED.
THOSE WHO ARE WITHOUT SIN THROW THE FIRST STONE.

YOU ARE BORN IN SIN AND NOT BORN WITH SIN OR TO SIN IS THAT MORE UNDERSTANDING

Jouberar, it can be easily proven that the fact that Jesus was NOT crusified was mentioned in christian sources as well. Refer to Acopolyps of St Peter, St Barnaba's gospel, Gospel of St Thomas.

Your logic in saying "God is not permitted to have a son" is stupid as noone permits God anything. Besides, can you show me one word in old scripture that says that God has a son who is in heaven with him and that there are three gods, but all three are one? Everywhere God says ""Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" Deuteronomy 6:4

Besides, it is easily proven that bibles as you know them today are tempered with and distorted, we have discussed this issue in different threads.

So it is not only Qur'an that claims that Jesus was not crucified at all. The oldest manuscripts (Nag Hamadi library) claim it, which date back before the "new testment" was actually written.

If you want an intellectual debate, then I am happy to debate with you. But with only one condition, you should be educated enough in your own religion (knowing the manuscripts, the history of christianity, the famoust christian apologysts like Justin Martin, Tertulian, clement of alexandria, Ireneus , Nisean Crede and Constantine and so on). If conditions suit you, we can have a debate on any issue regarding teachings of Islam vs Christianity.

Regards

[JOUBERAR]

PART 4

Why was the Qibla shifted from Jerusalem to Makkah

The shift of Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah is significant and symbolic.

The Israelites were given the means and opportunities to implement the laws of God on earth. Many Israelite prophets were granted empires and the political and military might.

But they declared themselves the chosen race, disparaged all others and forbade them to enter the religion of God.

They disobeyed and mocked the messengers of God, and even killed them. They committed these acts knowingly, willfully and out of defiance _ not out of ignorance, but rather out of arrogance. They considered themselves immune from any retribution from God.

They refused to be the servants of God; instead, they sought to turn God into their servant and their personal genie!

Their arrogance reached its height when they slandered Mary and plotted the murder of two messengers of God.

Mary was consecrated to God and was raised in their Sacred Temple. Miraculously she became pregnant. Tongues began wagging in every home. It was the greatest scandal of its time!

The new born infant spoke from the cradle in front of a large audience, and absolved his mother of any wrong doing. (Al-Quran 19: 27-33) That messenger of God, who proved his credentials right at his birth, lived among them all his life.

They recognized Jesus, knew fully well that he was the messiah and yet continued to slander Mary. They called Jesus an illegitimate child _ and continue to do so even to this day, murdered Prophet Yahya (John the Baptist) and even planned to murder Jesus.

That sealed their fate.

Those claiming to be the chosen ones were declared to be the “cursed ones” by the Almighty.

Jesus refers to them as "blind guides," "blind fools," extortionists, unclean, serpents, a brood of vipers, murderers, persecutors, and being full of iniquity, Mathew 23: 13-36

He declared that no more signs would be shown to them.

And [Jesus] sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation. Mar 8:12

The Quran concurs!

4:156 (We punished them) because of their rejection (of the messenger Jesus), and their atrocious utterances of slander against Mary

4:157 (We punished them because of) their (blatant and boastful) statement, “We killed Jesus, the son of Mary, the Massiah, the messenger of Allah!”

5:78 The disbelievers of the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus son of Mary. This is because they (disobeyed and) strayed beyond the bounds.

The change of Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah is a symbolic gesture.

It announced to the world that the people who call themselves the “chosen race” will henceforth be treated as the “cursed race”

That is why the Qibla was changed.

The history of the Israelites ever since the departure of Jesus bears ample proof of the cursed status of this self-styled “chosen race”

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Mat 24:2

:kill:

FACT #1: The Qur’an states that Jesus was a messenger of Allah and a prophet of Islam. Indeed, Surah 19 tells us that Jesus began preaching Islamic theology the moment he was born:
And the throes (of childbirth) compelled [Mary] to betake herself to the trunk of a palm tree. She said: Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten! Then (the child ) called out to her from beneath her: Grieve not, surely your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you; And shake towards you the trunk of the palmtree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates: So eat and drink and refresh the eye. . . . Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet; And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live; And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed; And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.[2]
Jesus continued to preach the message of God throughout his life, until he was taken to heaven. According to the Qur’an, the Gospel that Jesus brought was no different from the message of the prophets before him. Jesus, a servant and prophet of God, preached Islam:
The same religion has He Established for you as that Which He enjoined on Noah—That which We have sent By inspiration to thee—And that which We enjoined On Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain Steadfast in Religion, and make No divisions therein.[3]
[Jesus] was no more than A servant: We granted Our favour to him, And We made him An example to the Children of Israel. . . . When Jesus came With Clear Signs, he said: “Now have I come To you with Wisdom, And in order to make Clear to you some Of the (points) on which Ye dispute: therefore fear Allah And obey me. For Allah, He is my Lord And your Lord: so worship Ye Him: this is A Straight Way.”[4]
Thus, Jesus spent approximately 33 years, from his birth to his ascension, preaching Islam to the children of Israel. Prior to his apparent crucifixion, his preaching was moderately successful, as the conversion of some of his listeners indicates.
[I]FACT #2: The Qur’an states that Jesus won a number of followers. Since Jesus spent his entire life preaching an early form of Islam, his message to his disciples must have centered around the basic tenets of Islamic theology. These disciples would have become something similar to Muslims, which is exactly what Islam teaches about Jesus’ followers:
When Jesus found Unbelief on their [i.e. the Jews’] Part He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work Of) Allah?” Said the Disciples: “We are Allah’s helpers: We believe in Allah, And do thou bear witness That we are Muslims.”[5]
And behold! I inspired The Disciples [of Jesus] to have faith In Me and Mine Messenger; They said, “We have faith, And do thou bear witness That we bow to Allah As Muslims.”[6]
Then, in their wake, We followed them up With (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, And bestowed on him The Gospel; and We ordained In the hearts of those Who followed him Compassion and Mercy.[7]
If the Qur’an is correct, then Jesus converted at least some of the children of Israel to Islam. Though there is absolutely no historical evidence for any such conversions, let us assume for the sake of argument that there were first century Jews who believed the message of Jesus and became Muslims. As we shall see, this assumption only presents problems for Muslim apologists.
:argue:

[MUHLIS]

what Bible? :mrgreen:

[JOUBERAR]

Jouberar, it can be easily proven that the fact that Jesus was NOT crusified was mentioned in christian sources as well. Refer to Acopolyps of St Peter, St Barnaba's gospel, Gospel of St Thomas.

Your logic in saying "God is not permitted to have a son" is stupid as noone permits God anything. Besides, can you show me one word in old scripture that says that God has a son who is in heaven with him and that there are three gods, but all three are one? Everywhere God says ""Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" Deuteronomy 6:4

Besides, it is easily proven that bibles as you know them today are tempered with and distorted, we have discussed this issue in different threads.

So it is not only Qur'an that claims that Jesus was not crucified at all. The oldest manuscripts (Nag Hamadi library) claim it, which date back before the "new testment" was actually written.

If you want an intellectual debate, then I am happy to debate with you. But with only one condition, you should be educated enough in your own religion (knowing the manuscripts, the history of christianity, the famoust christian apologysts like Justin Martin, Tertulian, clement of alexandria, Ireneus , Nisean Crede and Constantine and so on). If conditions suit you, we can have a debate on any issue regarding teachings of Islam vs Christianity.

Regards

WHY ISN'T THERE ANY SIMALARITIES BETWEEN THE FIFE PILARS IN ISLAM AND THE JEWIS PASSOVER. THIS IS JUST A FRACTION OFF DIFFERENCE WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER THINGS IS IT ALSO WIPED OUT OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES.

[Frida]

:kill:
:argue:

do you guys have to shoot and bitch every time you make a point? an awesome way of leading a dialog about piece, love and god. :rolleyes:

[JOUBERAR]

PART 4

Why was the Qibla shifted from Jerusalem to Makkah

The shift of Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah is significant and symbolic.

The Israelites were given the means and opportunities to implement the laws of God on earth. Many Israelite prophets were granted empires and the political and military might.

But they declared themselves the chosen race, disparaged all others and forbade them to enter the religion of God.

They disobeyed and mocked the messengers of God, and even killed them. They committed these acts knowingly, willfully and out of defiance _ not out of ignorance, but rather out of arrogance. They considered themselves immune from any retribution from God.

They refused to be the servants of God; instead, they sought to turn God into their servant and their personal genie!

Their arrogance reached its height when they slandered Mary and plotted the murder of two messengers of God.

Mary was consecrated to God and was raised in their Sacred Temple. Miraculously she became pregnant. Tongues began wagging in every home. It was the greatest scandal of its time!

The new born infant spoke from the cradle in front of a large audience, and absolved his mother of any wrong doing. (Al-Quran 19: 27-33) That messenger of God, who proved his credentials right at his birth, lived among them all his life.

They recognized Jesus, knew fully well that he was the messiah and yet continued to slander Mary. They called Jesus an illegitimate child _ and continue to do so even to this day, murdered Prophet Yahya (John the Baptist) and even planned to murder Jesus.

That sealed their fate.

Those claiming to be the chosen ones were declared to be the “cursed ones” by the Almighty.

Jesus refers to them as "blind guides," "blind fools," extortionists, unclean, serpents, a brood of vipers, murderers, persecutors, and being full of iniquity, Mathew 23: 13-36

He declared that no more signs would be shown to them.

And [Jesus] sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation. Mar 8:12

The Quran concurs!

4:156 (We punished them) because of their rejection (of the messenger Jesus), and their atrocious utterances of slander against Mary

4:157 (We punished them because of) their (blatant and boastful) statement, “We killed Jesus, the son of Mary, the Massiah, the messenger of Allah!”

5:78 The disbelievers of the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus son of Mary. This is because they (disobeyed and) strayed beyond the bounds.

The change of Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah is a symbolic gesture.

It announced to the world that the people who call themselves the “chosen race” will henceforth be treated as the “cursed race”

That is why the Qibla was changed.

The history of the Israelites ever since the departure of Jesus bears ample proof of the cursed status of this self-styled “chosen race”

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Mat 24:2

:kill:
FACT #3: If there were first-century Jews who converted to Islam at the preaching of Jesus, they didn’t last very long. The idea that Jesus’ earliest followers were Muslims raises an obvious question: Why have we never heard of any Muslims existing in the first century? We have a great deal of historical information about Jesus’ first-century followers, but we have no evidence at all of any Muslims. Defenders of Islam will most likely claim here that Christianity wiped out all the records of Jesus’ non-Christian followers, but such a view is absurd. We have both Christian and non-Christian sources that report early Christian beliefs, yet none of these sources mention the existence of any Muslim-Christians. At the very least, we can say with absolute certainty that Jesus’ death was well-known among ancient authorities, and that Jesus’ earliest followers—including Peter, James, and John—came to believe that Jesus had died on the cross for their sins and that he had risen from the dead. (We also know that the disciples held Jesus to be the divine Son of God, but this isn’t necessary for my argument.) All four New Testament Gospels confirm the early Christian belief in Jesus’ death and resurrection, as does the book of Acts. Paul’s letters also repeatedly proclaim Jesus’ death and resurrection. Further, an ancient creed recorded in 1 Corinthians 15 has been dated to within a few years of Jesus’ life and therefore provides extremely early testimony about Christian beliefs during the time of the apostles. It reads:
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas [Peter], then to the twelve.[8]
We also have early Christian writings from outside the New Testament that report the beliefs of Jesus’ followers. For instance, Clement of Rome, who was ordained as Bishop of Rome by the Apostle Peter, writes about the apostles’ belief in Jesus’ resurrection from the dead.[9] Polycarp, who was ordained by the Apostle John, mentions Jesus’ resurrection numerous times.[10] There are even several ancient non-Christian sources that report crucial information about Jesus and the apostles. According to both the Jewish historian Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus, Jesus was crucified during the reign of Pontius Pilate.[11] Lucian of Samosata, a Greek satirist, states, “The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.”[12] Even the Jewish Talmud reports the crucifixion of Jesus.[13]
Hence, the most reasonable interpretation of the data is that the Qur’an is wrong when it says (1) that Jesus never died and (2) that Jesus’ early followers were Muslims. Nevertheless, let us be generous and grant, in spite of the facts, that there were a number of first-century Muslims, but that all evidence of their existence was later destroyed by Christians. Even if we grant such an outlandish assumption, this still presents Muslims with an enormous problem: What happened to these first-century Muslims? Why was Islam replaced by belief in Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection from the dead? Why didn’t Jesus’ 33 years of preaching amount to anything that lasted?
Muslims will most likely respond to these questions by arguing, once again, that Christianity corrupted Jesus’ message and that the Christian church erased all memory of Jesus’ Islamic teachings. However, no true Muslim should accept this position, for it conceals the true Qur’anic account of what happened.
:argue:

[Compromise]

do you guys have to shoot and bitch every time you make a point? an awesome way of leading a dialog about piece, love and god. :rolleyes:
Bu menimcha Joeberari Imidgi bo'lsa kerak qayrga qaramasa shunaqa boshida otishma ohirida tortishma. Yana tahmin qildimki bu Inson hozir ancha jahl ustida bo'lsa kerak shunaqa imidge yaratib olgandir. Uzi tinclik deb hamma yoqda otishma qilib tashlabdi bechoraaa :(

[Royal]

:kill::argue:
Jesus suffer for the Humans sins Then!
But why humans suffering Now ?

[JOUBERAR]

Jesus suffer for the Humans sins Then!
But why humans suffering Now ?

Because they do not practise what they preach and live thier religion like JESUS told them to live thier lives.

[NanOnaN]

Kecha ertalap 5 gacha maza qilip korimman shuni, oshatta 12 ta part bor.
Lekin otahot sindirip tashaptila maruzani

Eng qoyil qoladigani Bibliani luboy editionni yodlap tashaganakanla:D:shock:

YouTube - Jesus Christ (PBUH) in Islam 2 of 12

[JOUBERAR]

I know majority of the forum user's are Muslim, and it is important to know about the Bible to Muslim and Crestians. I Islam views Crestians as the followers of the Prophet Jesus SalAlohu Alaihi WaSallam. We can that way talk about the wars, disasters, and why did all that happened and how those wars have been solved, then we can also see and compare the solutions to the suni/shia conflict. So anybody have a bible? If u have a Bible if you read the Bible and Quran then u can always come up with upper hand in some debates.

The Bible & the
Sonship of Christ
Let us consider the testimony of Angel Gabriel.
.Then said Mary unto the Angel [Gabriel] how shall this be,
seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said
unto her, the Holy Ghost shall overshadow thee, therefore also
that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the
Son of God. (Luke 1:34-35).
When Jesus was baptized in the River Jordan, the Gospel says:
.And lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son in
whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 3:17).
On yet another occasion, while on the mountain of transfiguration the
Bible has the following to say:
.And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James and John his
brother and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart, And
was transfigured before them, and his face did shine as the sun,
and His raiment was white as the light. And behold, there
appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him. Then
answered Peter and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be
here. If thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for
thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake,
behold a bright cloud over-shadowed them and behold a voice
out of the cloud, which said: This is my beloved Son in whom
I am well pleased, hear ye him. (Matthew 17:1-5).
Writing later, one of the eye witnesses (Peter) testifies thus:
.For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we
made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus
Christ but were eye witnesses of His Majesty. For He received
from God the Father, honour and glory when there came a
voice to Him from the excellent glory, this is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from
heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount.
(2 Peter 1:16-18).
Anyone who has the slightest knowledge about the nature of God
would admit that the ever-consistent God, the true God, the God of

Islam Reviewed
13
1

Editor.s Note: Muslims believe that Christians, in calling Christ the Son of God,
are guilty of making a man into God (a blasphemy), and that Christians also
believe that God married and biologically produced a child. Allah knew better, this
ayat teaches an untruth that has deceived Muslims throughout time and kept them
from coming to the only One who could save them from their sins. Christ did not
become the Son of God by reason of the virgin birth, but through the virgin birth
a part of God.s Being became man. Christians did not take a man and make him
God; they worship God who came to earth in the form of a man. (John 1:1, 14).
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would never have sent any .angel Gabriel.
about 600 years later to refute this Bible teaching. Only hearts that have
been influenced by the jinns (demons) would believe otherwise. Those
who have been misled into believing that Christians and Muslims
worship the same God need to review their position. In the Bible, God
acknowledges Jesus as His Son on many occasions, while in the Koran,
Allah vigorously rejects it. The truth is that only Satan can teach in
opposition to God.s word. That Satan can assign one of his angels to pose
as an .angel Gabriel. is clear from the following passage of scripture:
.And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel
of light. Therefore it is no great a thing if his ministers also be
transformed as the ministers of righteousness: whose end shall
be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
If one really ponders the Koranic verses that object to the Sonship of
Christ, he is forced to query the ignorance of whoever is speaking. Sura
6, Al-An.am, 101 says:
.To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth:
how can he have a son when he hath no consort [wife]?1 He
created all things and he hath full knowledge of all things..
Can you imagine God to be so carnal as to ask a question any
Sunday School child would not ask? (Whoever composed this ayat failed
to start with Lo! or Say, so as to create the impression that an Allah was
speaking). Could Allah be so shallow of knowledge as not to know of
any sonship other that a biological sonship? Doesn.t whoever is speaking
in this sura know of legal sonship, Adoption? Doesn.t he know of
metaphorical sonships e.g., an Egyptian as son of the Nile, Arab as son
of the desert, necessity as the mother of invention, a student as the son
of knowledge, etc.? When the Bible teaches that Christ is the Son of God,

[Huzuri]

The Bible & the
Sonship of Christ
Let us consider the testimony of Angel Gabriel.
.Then said Mary unto the Angel [Gabriel] how shall this be,
seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said
unto her, the Holy Ghost shall overshadow thee, therefore also
that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the
Son of God. (Luke 1:34-35).
When Jesus was baptized in the River Jordan, the Gospel says:
.And lo a voice from heaven, saying, this is my beloved Son in
whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 3:17).
On yet another occasion, while on the mountain of transfiguration the
Bible has the following to say:
.And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James and John his
brother and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart, And
was transfigured before them, and his face did shine as the sun,
and His raiment was white as the light. And behold, there
appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him. Then
answered Peter and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be
here. If thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for
thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake,
behold a bright cloud over-shadowed them and behold a voice
out of the cloud, which said: This is my beloved Son in whom
I am well pleased, hear ye him. (Matthew 17:1-5).
Writing later, one of the eye witnesses (Peter) testifies thus:
.For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we
made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus
Christ but were eye witnesses of His Majesty. For He received
from God the Father, honour and glory when there came a
voice to Him from the excellent glory, this is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from
heaven we heard, when we were with Him in the holy mount.
(2 Peter 1:16-18).
Anyone who has the slightest knowledge about the nature of God
would admit that the ever-consistent God, the true God, the God of

Islam Reviewed
13
1

Editor.s Note: Muslims believe that Christians, in calling Christ the Son of God,
are guilty of making a man into God (a blasphemy), and that Christians also
believe that God married and biologically produced a child. Allah knew better, this
ayat teaches an untruth that has deceived Muslims throughout time and kept them
from coming to the only One who could save them from their sins. Christ did not
become the Son of God by reason of the virgin birth, but through the virgin birth
a part of God.s Being became man. Christians did not take a man and make him
God; they worship God who came to earth in the form of a man. (John 1:1, 14).
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would never have sent any .angel Gabriel.
about 600 years later to refute this Bible teaching. Only hearts that have
been influenced by the jinns (demons) would believe otherwise. Those
who have been misled into believing that Christians and Muslims
worship the same God need to review their position. In the Bible, God
acknowledges Jesus as His Son on many occasions, while in the Koran,
Allah vigorously rejects it. The truth is that only Satan can teach in
opposition to God.s word. That Satan can assign one of his angels to pose
as an .angel Gabriel. is clear from the following passage of scripture:
.And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel
of light. Therefore it is no great a thing if his ministers also be
transformed as the ministers of righteousness: whose end shall
be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).
If one really ponders the Koranic verses that object to the Sonship of
Christ, he is forced to query the ignorance of whoever is speaking. Sura
6, Al-An.am, 101 says:
.To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth:
how can he have a son when he hath no consort [wife]?1 He
created all things and he hath full knowledge of all things..
Can you imagine God to be so carnal as to ask a question any
Sunday School child would not ask? (Whoever composed this ayat failed
to start with Lo! or Say, so as to create the impression that an Allah was
speaking). Could Allah be so shallow of knowledge as not to know of
any sonship other that a biological sonship? Doesn.t whoever is speaking
in this sura know of legal sonship, Adoption? Doesn.t he know of
metaphorical sonships e.g., an Egyptian as son of the Nile, Arab as son
of the desert, necessity as the mother of invention, a student as the son
of knowledge, etc.? When the Bible teaches that Christ is the Son of God,


Hristiyan dini-eski rubl kabi hech narsaga yaramidi. Bu foydasiz pul bilan bozorga borish aqlli kishining ishi emas.
who still wants to say about hristiyan or :)

[Sahib]

The QUR'AN AL-KARIM and The BIBLES
P R E F A C E
Today the followers of the two great religions in the world, that is, Islam and Christianity, have two books that are supposed to be "the words of Allahu ta'ala." The holy book of the Christians is the Bible, Kitab-i muqaddas (holy book). This book consists of two main parts: Old Testament, namely the Torah (Tawrat), and the New Testament, the Injils and the pamphlets appended to them. The holy book of the Muslims is the Qur'an al-karim.
We, Muslims, believe that 'Isa (Jesus) ('alaihi 's-salam), who has been deified by the Christians, was a prophet. Since he was a prophet, it was natural for him to be given a book by Allahu ta'ala. That is why there can be no doubt that the real Bible, which was 'Isa's ('alaihi 's-salam) book, was certainly "Allahu ta'ala's word." But, today, the real Bible does not exist. In the book which the Christians have in their hands there are very few words which actually come from the original, true Injil (real Bible). The real Bible was in the Hebrew language. Later this book was translated into the Greek and Latin languages erroneously, and, in the course of time, many additions were made and it was continuously changed. Many Bibles have been written, but the majority of them were rejected. At last, today, there are four Bibles left.
The evidence for this will be seen in future pages. But changes, corrections and explanations in the Bible are still going on. However, in contrast, not a single letter has been changed in the Qur'an al-karim since it was revealed to the beloved Prophet Hadrat Muhammad Mustafah (sall-Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam) that is, it has remained in its pristine origin.
Our words up to here are not the claims of Muslims only. Scientists and theologists from the West have carefully re-examined today's Bible and have proved that it is not "the words of Allahu ta'ala." We should not forget that we shall enter the twenty-first century soon. In a century when science and technology have been developing rapidly, and when even the underdeveloped nations of the world have established universities, it has become impossible to accept any dogma blindly by saying, "I heard it from my father." "I don't know the reason, but my teacher told me." Today's young people have been exploring the origins and reasons for everything and have been refusing the things that are not logical. In Turkey, half a million people sat for the university entrance examinations in 1980. Those young people who have been educated by way of modern science will certainly examine carefully everything which has been taught concerning religion, too. For this reason, today's Western theologists, as you will see in this book, have been uncovering the errors in the Bible. Thus, after reading their publications, we wanted to report to our Muslim brothers the great differences between today's Holy Bible and the Qur'an al-karim once again. While we were preparing this chapter, we made use of an American author named Houser, who has written some books regarding religion.
In addition to this, we studied the book Tuhfat-ul- arib, which describes the errors in the Bible. It was written by Anselmo Turmeda, a well-known Spaniard priest who converted to Islam in 823 [1420]. We also examined the book Pearls of the Bible by S.Merran Muhyiddin Sahib Iqbal of Pakistan and the Turkish book Dhiya-ul-qulub by Ishaq Effendi of Harput, Turkey, who was a professor and a member of an educational council. He died in 1309 (1891). This book was published in 1295 (1878) and contains the author's deep research on the Bible. It was printed by Hakikat kitabevi in Istanbul, in 1407 (1987 A.D.), in the Latin alphabet, and given the name Could Not Answer. Another book written in Turkish by Ishaq Effendi is (See note on page 36.) Shams-ul Haqiqa published in 1278 (1861 A.D.). This book has two-hundred and ninety pages and proves, by means of using absolute proofs, that the Christian's so-called Bible is really a history book that was written later on, while the Qur'an al-karim is the actual word of Allahu ta'ala. Shams-ul Haqiqa is in the Sulaimania library in Istanbul registered under the number 204 in the "Dugumlu Baba" section. Furthermore, a Turkish book, Izah-ul-maram, written by Haji Abdullah Ibn Destan Mustapha Effendi (34) from Bosna (Bosnia), and printed in 1288 (1871 A.D.) at a printing house owned by Yahya Effendi, the sheikh of Mustapha Pasha Tekke, outside Edirnekapi, is registered under the number 771 at the "Nafiz Pasha" section of the Sulaimania library. This book cites many proofs to prove that Christianity is completely corrupt and invalid. But it is the book Idhhar-ul-Haq by Rahmatullah Effendi from India which hurts Christianity the most and indicates that Christianity is not true or based on facts.
On its three hundred and ninetieth page, the Persian book Maqamat-i ahyar says, "Fander, a Protestant priest, was very famous among Christians. A Protestant missionary organization sent him with some distinguished priests to India to propagate Christianity. In Rabi ul-akhir and on the eleventh of Rajab, 1270 [1854 A.D.], in the presence of other scholars and distinguished personalities, these missionary delegates had a scientific debate with Rahmatullah Effendi, the great Islamic scholar from the city of Delhi. At the end of the debate, which lasted quite a long time, Fander and his assistants failed to answer. Four years later, while India was occupied by the British [all her Muslim people, especially the Sultan (the Muslim ruler), and the men of religious authority were harshly tortured by them], Rahmatullah Effendi emigrated to the city of Mecca-i Mukarrama. Later the above mentioned Christian missionary delegation came to Istanbul in 1295 [1878 A.D.], and began to propagate Christianity. The Grand Vizier Hayruddin Pasha invited Rahmatullah Effendi to Istanbul. When the priest met him again, they were confused and did nothing, except to leave Istanbul without answering his questions. Rahmatullah Effendi was given many presents. In addition, the Grand Vizier, Hayruddin Pasha, requested him to write a book in order to explain how he refuted and made the priest a laughing- stock. Upon this request, after writing the Arabic book Idhar-ul-Haq during the time between the 16th of Rajab and the end of Zilhijja, he went back to Mecca again. Hayruddin Pasha had the book Idhar-ul-Haq translated into Turkish, and, subsequently, both books were printed. This book was also translated into several European languages and sent to every foreign country. Newspapers in England stated: 'If this book is widely read, Christianity will suffer greatly.' Sultan Abdulhamid Khan II, (35) the Khalifa of all the Muslims (rahmatullahi alaih), invited Rahmatullah Effendi again during the month of Ramadan, 1304. He entertained him respectfully in his palace and bestowed many gifts upon him. Rahmatullah Effendi passed away in the city of Mecca-i Mukarrama in the month of Ramadan in 1308 [1890 A.D.]."
Moreover, we also examined some Western books concerning the Qur'an al-karim that were written one hundred years ago. Thus, we have concluded that if these two holy books are examined impartially, it will become obvious to everybody, (even to the most inflexible man) no matter what religion he belongs to, which book is Allahu ta'ala's word.
We prepared this book in two parts. In the first part, as we said above, we shall report on the scientific research done on the Qur'an al-karim, the Old Testament (Torah), and the New Testament that is available today.
In the second part of the book, Hadrat Muhammad's (sall-Allahu 'alaihi wa sallam) miracles (mujizas), virtues and beautiful moral characteristics have been explained. We obtained all this information from a Turkish history book entitled Mirat-i Kainat, written by the famous Islamic scholar Nishanci-zada Muhammad Effendi, who was educated during the Ottoman State and died in 1031 (1719). This book of his was published in Istanbul in 1269 (1853).
I hope our dear readers will read this chapter with great interest and make use of the knowledge in it. May Allahu ta'ala bring us all to the right path and keep us on it. Amin!

[Sahib]

CONTRADICTIONS AND DIFFERENCES AMONG THE FOUR GOSPELS

The errors, contradictions and interpolations seen in the existing Gospels are uncountably numerous. Many of them are explained in the book Iz-har-ul-haq. Also, there is extensive and detailed information in this respect in books that were written and are still being written and published by a number of German orientalists such as Joizer, Davis, Miel, Kepler, Maìe, Bred Schneider, Griesbach Huge, Lesinag, Herder, Straus, Haus, Tobian, Thyl, Carl Butter, and many more. Here we shall only mention of few of them.
There is a great difference between the Gospels of Matthew and Luke concerning the ancestors of Isa 'sall-allahu ala Nabiyyina wa alaihi wasallam'.
In the Gospel of Matthew, the following names are written as the ancestors of Isa 'alaihis-salam': "Ibrahim, Ishaq, Yaqub, Yahuda, Faris, Hestron, Aram, Aminadab, Nahshon, Salmon, Buaz, Obid, Yassa, Dawud, Sulaiman, Rehobeam, Abiya, Asa, Yehashafat, Yoram, Uzziya, Yotam, Ahaz, Hazkiya, Manassa, Amon, Yoshiya, Yaqonya, Shaltoil, Zerubabel, Abihood, Alyakim, Azor, Sadoq, Ahim, Eliud, EliAzar, Mattan, Yaqub, Yusuf (Maryam(s husband)."
On the other hand, in the twenty-third and later verses of the third chapter of the Gospel of Luke the following names are written: "Taruh, Ibrahim, Ishaq, Yaqub, Yahuda, Faris, Hasron, Aram, Aminadab, Nahshon, Salmon, Buaz, Obid, Yassee, Dawud, Natan, Mattasa, Minan, Milya, Alyakeem, Yonan, Yusuf, Yahuda, Sem'un, Lavee, Metsad, Yoreem, Eliazar, Yusa, Eyr, Almodam, Qosam, Addi, Melkee, Neyri, Shaltoil, Zerubabel, Risa, Yuhanna, Yahuda, Yusuf, Shemi, Mattasiya, Mahat, Nadjay, Hesli, Nahum, Amos, Metasiya, Yusf, Yanna, Melki, Lavi, Metsat, Heli, Yusuf (Maryam's husband)."
1 - According to Matthew, Yusuf (who is said to be the father of Isa 'alaihis-salam) is the son of Yaqub. According to Luke, he is the son of Heli. Matthew is a person close to Isa 'alaihis-salam'. And Luke is a disciple of Peter's. These are the people to study and observe a person close to them, and yet they seem to fall short of making investigation wholesome enough to write correctly the name of a person who they say was the grandfather of Isa 'alaihis-salam'; now, who on earth will trust or believe their other narratives?
2 - According to Matthew, Sulaiman 'alaihis-salam' is the son of Dawud 'alaihis-salam'. And according to Luke the son of Dawud 'alaihis-salam' is Natan, not Sulaiman 'alaihis-salam'.
3 - Matthew says that Shaltoil is the son of Yaqunya. But Luke says he is the son of Neyri. In Matthew, the name of Zerubabel's son is Abihood, whereas in Luke it is Risa. What is equally startling is that in the nineteenth verse of the third chapter of the Ahbar-i- eyyam Safar-i-ula, that is, of the First Chronicles, the names of Zerubabel's sons are written as Meshullam and Hananye. There is no mention of Abihood or Risa there.
4 - According to the seventeenth verse of the first chapter of Matthew, the grandfathers attributed to Isa 'alaihis-salam' from Ibrahim 'alaihis-salam' to Yusuf-u-Najjar, make up forty-two generations. The names given above, nevertheless, count only forty. According to Luke's account, on the other hand, the number reaches fifty-five.
From the time when the Gospels first appeared to our time, Christian scholars have remained in utter perplexity as to this question. Some of them made such untenable explanations as would not be admitted by anyone with common sense. For this reason, scholars such as Ekharn, Keeser, Haysee, Ghabuth, Wither, Fursen, etc. admitted the fact by saying that "These Gospels contain lots of contradictions pertaining to meaning." This is the truth of the matter. For inconsistencies and errors are not only in this matter but also in all the other matters.
Isa 'alaihis-salam' came to this world without a father. Nevertheless, while Jews persistently calumniate him by calling him an illegitimate child [May Allahu ta'ala protect us from saying so!], Christians attribute a paternal case history to him and accept Yusuf as his father, though he is not his father; this is a consternating ignorance and a paradoxical state. In the Qur'an al-karim, the ayats concerning Isa 'alaihis- salam' use such terms as "Isa ibn Maryam," which means "Isa the son of Maryam." It is declared clearly in the Qur'an al-karim that Isa 'alaihis-salam' did not have a father.
5 - It is written as follows in the twenty-second and twenty-third verses of the first chapter of Matthew: "Thus all these happened so that what the Creator said, through the Prophet, came about. For thine Creator said: So the virgin shall conceive and shall have a son, who shall be named Emanuel, which means Allah is with us." According to Christian priests, by saying 'Prophet', Ishaya (Isaiah) 'alaihi-salam' is meant. As an evidence for this, they put forward the fourteenth verse of the seventh chapter of the Book of Isaiah, which purports, "The Creator shall give you a sign for this. The sign is this; the virgin shall conceive and shall have a son. He shall be called Emanuel." Rahmatullah Effendi explains this matter in detail in his book Iz-har-ul-haq. He states that their inference is wrong for three reasons:
First; the word which the translators of the Gospel and the translator of the Book of Isaiah translated as azra(=virgin) is 'ilmatun, which is the feminine gender of the word 'ilm (=knowledge). According to Jewish scholars the meaning of this word is young woman. They say that this term is used to mean married woman, whether virginal or not, in the thirtieth chapter of the (Matters of Solomon) in Sirf-ul-emsal.In the three Greek versions of the look of Isaiah translated by persons named Ikola, Thedusien, and Semiks, this term is interpreted as (young woman). these translations, according to Christian clergy, are quite old; it is narrated that the first was translated in 129, the second in 175, and the third in 200. All these translations, especially the Thedusien, were warmly accepted by the early Christians. Therefore, according to Jewish scholars and the interpretations of these three translators, the expression used by Matthew is apparently wrong. Fery, in his discourse on the Hebrew lexicon in a book of his which is popular and accepted among Protestant priests, says that this word, i.e. (Azra), means (young woman). They (Protestants) say that according to his explanation the two meanings are common in this word. Yet the native speakers of the language, i.e. the Jews, in response to this interpretation of the priests, state that firstly Matthew's expression is wrong and secondly translating the word as Azra (=virginal woman), which runs counter to the early translations of the Jewish interpretations, requires sound proofs. The priest who wrote the book Mizan-ul-haq says in his book Hall-ul-eshqal that the meaning of the word is certainly Azra; he is wrong. The two evidences we have mentioned above would suffice to refute him.
Second; the twentieth verse of the first chapter of Matthew reads of follows: "The angel of God was revealed to him in his dream and said: O thou Joseph, do not be afraid to accept Mary as thine wife! For she will have a son by the Holy Spirit; name Him Jesus (Isa)." And the twenty-fourth verse says: "When Joseph woke up he did as the angel said and named the child Jesus."
The first chapter of Luke, on the other hand, states that the angel was seen by hadrat Maryam herself. According to the thirty-first verse of the same chapter, the angel said to hadrat Maryam that "soon you shall become pregnant, have a son, and name him Jesus."
While Matthew states that the angel appeared to Joseph in his dream, Luke says that hadrat Maryam saw the angel in person.
Furthermore, it is written as follows in the twenty- third verse of the first chapter of the Gospel of Matthew: "Thus the virgin shall become pregnant and have a son and they shall name him Emanuel." This is the fourteenth verse of the seventh chapter of the Book of Isaiah. It is wrong, because Isa 'alaihis-salam' never said that his name was Emanuel.

[Sahib]

Third; the following episode prevents the naming of Isa 'alaihis-salam' as Emanuel: When Rasin (Rezin, or Rasun), the Aramean ruler, and Faqah (Pekah), the Israelite ruler, brought their armies together in Jerusalem in order to fight the Judah ruler, Ahaz bin Yusan was alarmed by their alliance, Janab-i Haqq inspired Isaiah 'alaihis-salam' to calm Ahaz. So he gave Ahaz the good news: "O thou Ahaz! Don't be afraid! They cannot beat you. Their sovereignties will soon be destroyed and perish." He also stated its harbinger as follows: "A young woman shall become pregnant and have a son. Before this boy distinguishes between good and bad the empires of these two monarchs shall become annihilated." Faqah's sovereignty was destroyed exactly twenty-one years after this news. Then this boy must have been born before the annihilation of Faqah's sovereignty. On the other hand the birth of Isa 'alaihis-salam' took place seven hundred and twenty-one years after the annihilation of Faqah's country. Therefore, people of the book fell into disagreement as to the authenticity of the narrative. Some Christian clergy and Bens [Dr. George Benson], a doctor of history, stated that by 'young woman' Isaiah 'alaihis-salam' meant his own spouse and told the story accordingly. This explanation seems to be the most acceptable and the most plausible.
6 - It is narrated in the second chapter of the Gospel of Matthew that Yusuf-u-Nejjar (Joseph the Carpenter), for fear of Hirodes (Herod), took Maryam and Isa 'alaihis-salam' and went to Egypt. And the fifteenth verse of the second chapter reads as follows: "He remained there till Herod's death. Thus God's word, 'I called my son from Egypt', which was said through the Prophet, was fulfilled." The Prophet meant here is Yusha'. Thus the author of the Gospel of Matthew refers to the first verse of the eleventh chapter of the Book of Yusha (Joshua) in the Old Testament. This is wrong, because this verse has nothing to do with Isa 'alaihis-salam'. The correct from of the verse exists in the Arabic translation printed in 1226 [A.D. 1811], and reads as follows: "I loved Israel since his childhood and invited his children form Egypt." This verse is a sign of the favor Allahu ta'ala conferred upon the Israelites in the time of Musa 'alaihis-salam'. The author of Matthew changed this verse in the Old Testament by replacing the plural form 'children' with the singular 'son' (ibn) and using the first person singular pronoun (my) instead of the third person (his). Following his example, the author of the Arabic version published in 1260 [A.D. 1844] made [intentional] changes, [thus changing the meaning altogether]. However, when the verses following it are read, the reason for this change becomes clear. As a matter of fact the next verse, the second verse of the eleventh chapter of the Book of Yusha', purports: "When they are called they turn away. They have sacrificed victims to the Bu'al [idols worshipped by the people of the time of Ilyas (Elijah) 'alaihis-salam']". This cannot be the case with hadrat Isa, nor with the Jews contemporary with Isa 'alaihis-salam' or even with the Jews that lived five hundred years before the birth of Isa 'alaihis-salam'. For it is written clearly in history that five hundred and thirty-six years before the birth of Isa 'alaihis-salam', that is, after their salvation from slavery in Babel, Jews gave up worshipping idols and turned away from idols in penitence. It is a recorded fact that after that time they kept off idols.
7 - It is written in the nineteenth and following verses of the second chapter of the Gospel of Matthew, "After Herod's death the angel of God entered Joseph's dream in Egypt and said unto him: Get up, take the mother and the child and go to the land of Israel. So he and the other two went to the region of Jelila (Galili) and settled in the town called Nasira (Nazareth) so that the word of Prophets saying that he would be called the Nazareth would come true." This is wrong, too. None of the books of Prophets contains a word of this sort. Jews reject this word and say that it is a lie, a slander. [In fact, Jews hold the belief that no Prophet lived in the region of Galili, let alone Nazareth. As it is narrated clearly in the fifty-second verse of the seventh chapter of John, "Answering him they said: Are you from Galili, too? look and see; no Prophet has ever come out of Galili." This verse of John's contradicts the verse of Matthew we have mentioned above]. If the Christian priests have other information in this respect, they ought to declare it.
8 - As is written at the beginning of the fourth chapter of Matthew; the devil wants to test Isa 'alaihis-salam'. He is taken to the desert by the Spirit. Fasting for forty days and nights, he gets hungry. Then the devil takes Isa 'alaihis-salam' to the blessed city and makes him mount the dome of the temple, and says, "If you are the son of God throw yourself down! He shall command His angels, and they shall carry you on their hands," Isa 'alaihis-salam' answered the devil: "God is not to be tested". Then he took him into the mountains and said: "If you prostrate yourself in front o me I shall give you all the countries of the world." Isa 'alaihis- salam' said to the devil: "Get out of here and leave me alone. Allah, alone, is to be worshipped, and towards Him do we prostrate ourselves."
It is written in the twelfth and later verses of the first chapter of Mark: "The Spirit took jesus to the desert, where he remained for forty days, being tested by the devil. He stayed with wild animals. Angels served him." No remark is made here as to the manner of the devil's testing or the forty days' fasting by Isa 'alaihis-salam'.
9 - The sixth and seventh verses of the twenty-sixth chapter of Matthew purports: "As Jesus was sitting at the meal table in the home of Simon the leprous in Beyt-i-Unya, a woman came with a white marble receptacle containing very precious oil. She poured it on His head."
The third verse of the fourteenth chapter of Mark purports: "As Jesus was sitting in the home of Simon the leprous in Beyt-i-Unya, a woman came with very (precious) pure spikenard in a white marble container. She broke the container and then poured the oil on His head."
As it is purported in the thirty-sixth and later verses of the seventh chapter of the Gospel of Luke, "One of the Pharisees requested Jesus to eat with them. So He went to his home and sat at his meal table. A sinful woman living in that city heard that Jesus was sitting at the meal table in the Pharises's home. She brought some very precious oil in a white marble container and standing behind Him very near His feet began to weep and wet His feet with tears. Wiping His feet with her hair, she kissed His feet and smeared the oil on His feet. Upon this Jesus redeemed her of her sins."
On the other hand, the same episode is narrated as follows in the twelfth chapter of the Gospel of John: "Jesus came to Beyt-i-Unya six day before the Passover. LuAzar, whom Isa 'alaihis-salam' had resuscitated from among the dead, was there. They gave a feast to Jesus there. Mary, the sister of LuAzar, brought some very precious spikenard and smeared it on Jesus' feet. Then she wiped His feet with her hair.' [As it is seen, the same one episode is narrated differently in the four Gospels].
10 - It is written in the nineteenth, twentieth and twenty-first verses of the first chapter of John: 'When the Jews sent kahins (Kohen, Jewish priest) to Yahya (John the Baptist) to ask him who he was, Yahya said, 'I am not the Messiah'. And when they said, Who are you then? Are you Elijah?, Yahya said, 'I am not Elijah.'
On the other hand, according to the fourteenth verse of the eleventh chapter of the Gospel of Matthew, Isa 'alaihis-salam' stated about Yahya in front of the people: "If you want to accept him, he is the promised Elijah." And again Matthew writes in the tenth, eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth verses of the seventeenth chapter: "His disciples asked hadrat Isa: Then, why do the scribes say that Elijah should come first? Isa 'alaihis-salam' replied to them: Yes, Elijah shall come and rearrange everything. But I am telling you that Elijah has come already. Yet they have not recognized him. They have done whatever they have wanted to him. Thus mankind also shall suffer grief from them. Then the disciples realized that these words said to them by Isa 'alaihis-salam' were about Yahya." As is understood from this final passage, Yahya is the promised, expected Elijah. According to the Gospels of John and Matthew, the statements of Yahya 'alaihis-salam' contradict those of Isa 'alaihis- salam'. [For in the Gospel of John, Yahya 'alaihis- salam' declares that he is not Elijah. One of the reasons why Jews did not accept Isa 'alaihis-salam' was because they had been expecting the coming of Elijah before him. The contradiction here is as obvious as the sun].
11 - In the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke, the angel who gives the good news of hadrat Yahya to Zakariyya (Zachariah) 'alaihis-salam' recount the qualities of Yahya, and says in the seventeenth verse: "A son that shall be given to you in the soul of Elijah shall have merits and virtues in common with Elijah and walk in front of the Israelities to turn the hearts of fathers to their sons and the disobedient to the pious." This verse runs counter to the verses of Matthew narrated above, For it would be paradoxical for Yahya both to be Elijah himself and to have virtues and merits common with Elijah.

[Sahib]

12 - The twenty-fourth, twenty-fifth and twenty-sixth verses of the fourth chapter of Luke state: "Jesus said: Indeed I tell you that in the days of Elijah, when the sky remained closed for three years and six months and there was famine all over the earth, there were many widows in Israel. But Elijah was not sent to any one of them. He was sent to a widow in. Sarepdaya in the vicinity of Sayda (Sidon)." Since this event did not take place in the time of Yahya 'alaihis-salam', this narrative is obviously contrary to the narrative of Matthew. [For it is stated in the Gospel of Matthew that Yahya 'alaihis-salam' lived in the time of Isa 'alaihis-salam' and that He was Elijah. On the other hand, contrary to the narrative in the Gospel of Luke, the event of the sky remaining closed three years and six months did not take place in the time of Isa 'alaihis-salam' or Yahya (John) the Baptist, who is represented as Elijah].
13 - The fifty-third, fifty-fourth and fifty-fifth verses of the ninth chapter of Luke purport: "As Jesus was going to Jerusalem, the Samaritans did not admit Jesus. When Jacob and John, two of His apostles, saw this, they said: O Lord, do you want us to order [as did Elijah] so that fire shall descend from heaven and destroy them?" Hence, even the apostles of Isa 'alaihis-salam' knew that Elijah had lived before them and that Yahya was not Elijah. This narrative contradicts the narrative of Matthew, too.
14 - It is written in the first, second and third verses of the twenty-first chapter of the Gospel of Matthew that Isa 'alaihis-salam' sent forth two apostles of his to a nearby village and ordered them to bring back with them a donkey tied there and its foal. The other Gospels do not mention the donkey and defer only to the foal.
15 - The sixth verse of the first chapter of Mark writes that Yahya ate grasshoppers and wild honey. The eighteenth verse of the eleventh chapter of Matthew, on the other hand, says that Yahya did not eat or drink anything. [Their statements are quite opposed to each other].
16 - The fourteenth and fifteenth verses of the third chapter of Matthew narrate that "When Jesus left Galili and went to Jordan to visit Yahya (John) and be baptized there, Yahya wanted to dissuade Jesus saying: Are you coming to me while I need to be baptized by you? Jesus replied to him: Let me do it, as it is necessary for us to do every kind of salah (pious act). Then Yahya let him go ahead. So Jesus was baptized and went out of the water. And the heavens were opened for him. He saw God's Spirit descending onto him like a dove. And a voice was heard to say: Here is my beloved son. I am pleased with him." Again, the second, third and fourth verses of the eleventh chapter of Matthew state that "When Yahya was in a dungeon he heard of the miraculous acts of the Messiah, and sending his disciples to Him (Jesus), he asked Him: Are you the promised person [Messiah], or are we to expect someone else"
Yahya 'alaihis-salam' did not get out of the dungeon. He was killed there. Baptism of Isa 'alaihis-salam' by Yahya 'alaihis-salam' was before his imprisonment. According to Matthew, Yahya 'alaihis-salam' knew of Isa 'alaihis-salam' before the baptism. [In the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth verses of the second chapter, as we have quoted above, Yahya 'alaihis-salam' asks Isa 'alaihis-salam' to baptize him and says, "I need to be baptized by you." and yet in the eleventh chapter it is narrated that when Yahya 'alaihis-salam' was in the dungeon he did not know Isa 'alaihis-salam' was the Messiah and that "he sent his disciples to find out who he was." But the actual fact is that Yahya 'alaihis-salam' did not get out of the dungeon and was martyred there by Herod. This fact is stated also by Matthew in the fourteenth chapter. Accordingly, the verses on this subject in the third chapter and those in the eleventh chapter belie each other].
17 - On the other hand, this episode, is narrated in an altogether different way in the Gospel of John. The thirty-second and later verses of the first chapter state that "Yahya bore witness and said: I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove. The Spirit remained on Him [Jesus], I did not know Him. But as he sent me to baptize others with the water he said to me: On whoever you see the Spirit to descend and remain, he is the person who baptizes with the Holy Spirit." According to this narrative, Yahya did not know Isa 'alaihis-salam' before. He learned of him when the Spirit descended on him. This narrative is contrary to the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth verses of the first chapter of Matthew, which we have cited above.
18 - In the thirty-first verse of the fifth chapter of the Gospel of John, Isa 'alaihis-salam' says: "If bear witness for my own self, my witness shall not be true." Isa 'alaihis-salam', again, says in the eleventh verse of the third chapter: "We say what we know and bear witness to what we see." These two statements are absolutely irreconcilable.
19 - In the twenty-seventh verse of the tenth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew he says: "What I say in the dark you are to say in the light. What I say into your ear you are to cry out on roofs." And in the third verse of the twelfth chapter of Luke he says: "Everything you say in the dark shall be heard in the light. What you say secretly into the ear shall be announced on roofs." As is seen, the statement was derived from the same one source but was changed afterwards.
20 - It is stated in the twenty-first and later verses of the twenty-sixth chapter of the Gospel of Matthew that "As hadrat Isa was eating with the Apostles he said unto them: One of you will betray me. They grieved, and one of them began to say unto him: O our lord! Am I the person you mean? Hadrat Isa said unto them: the one who dips his hand into the dish with me will give me away. Judas, who (later) betrayed him said: O Lord, is it me? And Jesus said unto him: it is as you say."
The twenty-first and later verses of the thirteenth chapter of the Gospel of John say: "After saying these words to his Apostles at the meal table, Jesus' soul felt rather uneasy. He said: Indeed I tell you that one of you will give me away. The Apostles looked at one another in suspicion as to who was meant. One of them. Peter, beckoned to the Apostle most beloved to the Messiah to ask Jesus who the man was. He did so. Hadrat Isa (Jesus) replied: He is the one I give the piece of bread to after dipping it (into the food). And he gave the piece of bread to Judas after dipping it." The difference between the two narratives is apparent.
21 - The twenty-sixth chapter of Matthew, while narrating how the Jews caught and imprisoned hadrat Isa, writes as follows beginning in the forty-eighth verse: "Judas had given the mute signal to those ordered to arrest Jesus and had said: Catch the person that I kiss. Presently he approached Jesus and said: I pay my salutations to you, o my Lord. Then he kissed Jesus. Jesus said unto him: Why did you come here, companion? Then the officials came and caught Him (Jesus)."
The third and later verses of the eighteenth chapter of John narrate that "Judas took a company of soldiers, some chief kahins (Jewish priests) and officials of Pharisees, and carrying lanterns, torches and weapons they came to the garden [where Jesus and His Apostles were]. Jesus, tough he knew what he was going to undergo, went forward and asked them who they were looking for. When they said they were looking for Jesus the Nazarene, Jesus said to them: I am Jesus. Judas, His betrayer was standing with them. This reply of Jesus' made them withdraw and fall down. Jesus repeated his question: Who are you looking for? And they said: Jesus the Nazarene. Jesus replied: I have told you I am Jesus. If you are looking for me now, let these people go." Contradiction betwee