Muslim is killing a Muslim...

[infolife]

It’s really hard to understand what is happening in Lebanon.
Why are Lebanese soldiers fighting so ferociously against their Arab brothers? Why are they pounding a Palestinian refugee camp so hard with artillery and tank guns and killing civilians?
Where were they last summer when their country was being invaded by the Israelis? Where were they when Beirut was being bombarded by Israeli planes and missiles... when their own brothers and sisters were being murdered?
Can anyone call these army soldiers heroic defenders of their country? Shouldn’t they show this bravery towards foreign invaders and occupiers and try to rescue their brothers and sisters who are languishing in Israeli jails?
Instead of attacking displaced Palestinians, they should show more compassion, love and understanding towards their own brothers living in terrible conditions in refugee camps. They should be brave and fight their enemy, not their brothers. http://www2.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=7813


Sadly, there have been many cases in the past 30years where we see a muslim killing a fellow muslim,not by mistake though!
Just in the past week nearly 100Palestenians dies in the deadly streetfightings between Fatah and Hamas....
Lebanese army's battle with rebels at Nahr-al-Bared, in one of the 12palestenian refugee camps....
Turkey is trying to attack the kurds in nothern Iraq....
Muslims fighting with tribal leaders in Waziristan....and about 150 dead

So,roughly,200-250muslims have been killed by their brothers.(How scary is that? Is this the End Time?)Not included the victims of shia-sunni fighting in Iraq and the victims of Taliban members and the supporters of Hamid Karzay's goverment......

What's your opinion on that?Is it for power muslims fighting with each other?Or any other social factors?
If the religion of GOD cant unite their hearts in love, what is the next option?
How do you think we can confrtont this problem?Any solutions?

so so sad....

[Demir Kağan]

You are getting angry when we say Arabs are betrayers.

They are betraying even their brothers!

Why shouldn't they betray us? :)

[Bilge_Kagan]

Turkey is trying to attack the kurds in nothern Iraq....

Turkey isn't trying to attack "the Kurds" in northern Iraq. If Turkey want it, it can do. But we have to clear the subject: If Turkey attack to northern Iraq, it won't attack "the Kurds", it will attack "PKK". Do you know PKK ? Have you ever heard about 35000 dead "muslim Turkish" people ? Have you ever seen killed little babies, killed pregnant women ?

So, if Turkey attack to northern Iraq, it will attack these blood-thirsty maniacs ( i can't say "humans" ).

Any questions ?

[Vezunchik]

...Gadoni dushmani Gado bo`ladi..., boyniki boy. No, gadoni ishtonidan boshqa hech narsasi yo`qligi uchun bir birini o`ldiradi, Boyla bo`sa siyosat (Diplomatiya, Game) qiladi, chunki odnim millionom bolshe, odnim menshe... chidasa bo`ladi....

2 ahmoqni urgandan ko`ra , ulani urishtirib qo`ysa, bir birini go`shtini yeb 1-ttasi tirik qoladi. Uni urush oson bo`ladi.

Dunyoda hozir faqat musilmonla hech qayerga agressiya qilib bosib olmagan, Lekin hamma yerda faqat musilmon ayibdor, musilmon odamho`r, musulmon kamikadze, musulmon fundamentalist.... Nega???

Isroil Falastinda, Hindla Kashmirda, Samolida hristianla, Uyg`uristonda hittoyla.... hamma joyda kaltak yeb yotibdi. Bo`tta arabla Londondan Pentehous lani sotvolish bilan ovora, Cho`lda qordan kurort qurish bilan ovora...

Pulga o`ch, g`ururi yo`q, kitob o`qishni o`rniga pul sarflashni payida, birlashishni o`rniga, qo`shnisini Diktator deb ayiblab o`ldirishligini kutib o`tiradi...
Etadiyu ko`rmaganni , ko`rgani qursin. Evropa, US, Japan ittedek ishlab pul topishni, zavod-fabrika qurishni, kitob o`qib olim bo`lishni orqasida yurganda, butun arab dunyosida faqat O`rta osiyoda ozgina olimla kitob o`qirdi, butun arab Dunyosi Olloh Bir Kuni Beradi deb, kitobni yig`ishtirib qo`yib (Qurondan boshqa) cho`lma cho`l yurishdi. Endi pul topganda o`zini topomi qolishdi.

ON:

urushlani sababi 1. musulmonlani och ko`zligi, nodonligi va qo`rqoqligi. 2. Isroil, US, UK ni siyosiy o`yini.
Arabla kuchaysa neftni-gazni narhini o`yin qilishni boshliydi deb qo`rishadi, va mana shunaqa o`yinla qilishadi.

off:
Arab dunyosiga qiziqish 30-yilladan beri, Neftni ishlatishni o`zlashtirilgandan beri boshlandi.

[Iqra]

This problem appeared even longer that 30 years ago, it all started with the distraction of the Islamic state, when everyone was divided into separate National states... Muslims no longer recognize themselves as a Single Muslim Ummah , A single Body...
They do not see each other as brothers...The corrupted governments of these countries are doing everything to deeply root the feeling of Nationalism and racism in people...People do not know what their are fighting for , they just became tools in the hands of few corrupted rulers...And the only solution is Unity for Muslims, recognizing that we are one Ummah, one body and if one part of it aches the rest responds with fever and restlessness...

[Delf]

Muslim killing a Muslim a bad thing? But Muslim killing a non-Muslim is somehow OK?

I think any killing, regardless of religious affiliation, is bad.


An by the way, people who you define as Muslims, by certain people's measure are kuffaar, so killing them is justified by those people with the help of certain suras from Koran.


Delf.

[infolife]

Turkey isn't trying to attack "the Kurds" in northern Iraq. If Turkey want it, it can do. But we have to clear the subject: If Turkey attack to northern Iraq, it won't attack "the Kurds", it will attack "PKK". Do you know PKK ? Have you ever heard about 35000 dead "muslim Turkish" people ? Have you ever seen killed little babies, killed pregnant women ?

So, if Turkey attack to northern Iraq, it will attack these blood-thirsty maniacs ( i can't say "humans" ).

Any questions ?

Or Turkey attacks the nothern Iraq and only members of Kurdistan Worker's Party will die,right
I know about 35000dead, also know about mlns of kurdish people who have been victims of the bloody warzone between 1984-1999
The BIG problem of PKK is, it was built on marxism-leninism(although later changed to a bit islamic ideology)
Do you know most of its members are nationalists,just like yourself?

Question for you: What makes them act like they do?Nationalism?:rolleyes:

[lilbit]

People are gready and they do not care about faith and other attributes of nation.

How much can we discuss the same stuff???

[Abu-Hafiza]

This problem appeared even longer that 30 years ago, it all started with the distraction of the Islamic state, when everyone was divided into separate National states... Muslims no longer recognize themselves as a Single Muslim Ummah , A single Body...
They do not see each other as brothers...The corrupted governments of these countries are doing everything to deeply root the feeling of Nationalism and racism in people...People do not know what their are fighting for , they just became tools in the hands of few corrupted rulers...And the only solution is Unity for Muslims, recognizing that we are one Ummah, one body and if one part of it aches the rest responds with fever and restlessness...

Well, I understand what you mean, but I would dissagree. Muslim states have been in state of war throughout of history. It all started with killing of Uthman (RA) and he time of great fitnah (i.e. Aisha (RA) vs Ali (RA), Muawaiyah (RA) vs Ali (RA), Ummaviy khilafah vs Abbasid)

Then it continued on. There was a fatimid dynasty fighting abbasids, seldjuks fighting fatimids, Timur fighting Memluks (which led to destruction of the later), Timur fighing Bayazid, Yavuz Selim conquering Bag'dad, haramain and the whole of middle east (ruled by different muslim states), Shaybani fighting Babur, 3 khanates fighting each other. The funny thing is none of them was religeous warfare but all of them were using religion from time to time declaring jihad against the other.

But the problems today are mostly the product of exterior forces stirring the conflicts and unfortunately our muslim brothers and sisters buying that.

But it is not as simple as this. On one side there is clear injustice and colloborating with enimies of Islam and the local population (egsample-hamas:fattah fightings or karzai government vs taleban). Now what is one to do? Political activism and democrcy is failing, armed struggle only plays to the hand of the arch enimies... The problem is lack of awareness of muslims. This is due to lack of the faith, education and political mentality.

europe on the other hand had been in war throughout its history. But after second world war they have understood the power of politics, controll and the demage caused by wars. Thus they have built several complicated systems preventing them from fighting one another. The system is mutual interests which in case of war would demage all, win or lose.

Now look at this forum. There are some guys who are ready to kill fellow users because they think they are "wahhabis, extrimists" and so on. Others call their fellow muslims as "hawarij" and are actually advising to kill them "wherever one sees them". It is truly sad. We are confused as to see who are enemies are and unfortunately this has been the case throughout our recent history

[infolife]

Muslim killing a Muslim a bad thing? But Muslim killing a non-Muslim is somehow OK?

I think any killing, regardless of religious affiliation, is bad.


An by the way, people who you define as Muslims, by certain people's measure are kuffaar, so killing them is justified by those people with the help of certain suras from Koran.


Delf.

Any killing is a bad thing, if it is done unjustly and unfairly
Have you ever thought why muslims killing non-muslims?

If non-muslims dont want to be killed by muslims, they have to stop declaring war on those countries where the majority of people are muslims. Non-muslims(occupying forces) can easily leave muslim lands and none will touch them

You wouldnt approve any Quranic verse,it would be useless to bring this up.

I would somehow understand if muslims get killed by christians/jewish in search of power/control but being targeted by a fellow muslim while you live in a refugee camp for no reason is something else.
My point here is to explore more what stands behind this scene with the public opinion of forum users

[Abu-Hafiza]

Muslim killing a Muslim a bad thing? But Muslim killing a non-Muslim is somehow OK?

I think any killing, regardless of religious affiliation, is bad.


An by the way, people who you define as Muslims, by certain people's measure are kuffaar, so killing them is justified by those people with the help of certain suras from Koran.


Delf.

There are millions of quotes like above comming from those who actually carries out "legitemate" killings. Why do people tlak about "muslim killing kuffar" while the practice is relatively new phenomenon? Why noone actually remembers thousands of muslims killed for no reason (in palestine, in Iraq and so on). Why do people fail to aknowledge that "humanist", "secular", "democratic" countries are the ones who are armed to teeth? What do they need the most modern tanks, rockets, nuclear warheads if not for killing? And why noone tlaks about mass killings of innocents in Iraq, Chechnya, Vietnam and so on? Muslims would never kill kuffar if the later didnt attack them. There is not a single country which can be classified as "muslim ruled" country and you would not see throughout the history muslims killing kuffar "just because they feel like it" or "just because they are kuffar". The examples that you Mr. Delf can bring will only be limited to those groups who are themselves under attack and are retaliating in the manner they feel legitemate (ili kak govoryat yevreyi oko za oko, zub za zub). The ways might be wrong, the consiquences might be dreadful, but the fact remains that it is not muslim groups who attacks "kuffar" just out of the blue. They are being attacked and they are retaliating.

[Bilge_Kagan]

Or Turkey attacks the nothern Iraq and only members of Kurdistan Worker's Party will die

No. If they try to prevent Turkey to kill terrorists, they will die.

I don't know what you heard about Turkish army but people always think good things about Turkish army, where they go ( like Kosovo, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Bosnia-Herzegovina etc. ). I don't think they will do something bad.

right
I know about 35000dead, also know about mlns of kurdish people who have been victims of the bloody warzone between 1984-1999

Which warzone are you talking about ? Iran-Iraq wars ? After Halepce massacre, Turkey opened its gates to millions of Kurds ( that's why today we have a civil problem ). Nobody can accuse Turkey about death of "millions of" (?) Kurds.

The BIG problem of PKK is, it was built on marxism-leninism(although later changed to a bit islamic ideology)

Before military government in 1980, USSR was giving money, weapons etc. After '80, USA started to do same thing. That's why it was Marxist at first and Islamic(!) now.

Do you know most of its members are nationalists,just like yourself?

No. Most of its members are members, because they must be ( if they don't want to get killed of course ). I don't know do you have an information about feodalist social stance of Kurds at southeast Turkey ? Others are some communists and people who earn money, gain power thanks to PKK.

Kurdish nationalists are not in PKK, they are trying to get PKK more powerful with their money etc. ( you can look at Ibrahim Tatlises for example )

Question for you: What makes them act like they do?Nationalism?

No. Only money.

[Iqra]

Assalamu alaikum
If you disagree with me brother fare enough ...I still believe the only major problem is disunity amongst Muslims and than comes all the rest. The First fitnah that you are talking about is very different to the current problems.. even though some of the Sahabis were fighting each other till the last moment they never forgot that they were brothers, and if you study more about it you will see that a lot of confusion was caused by Jews , who did everything to create this fitnah between Muslims...

I agree with you on some points such as we do not know who are our enemies and we lack in knowledge of our religion and current affairs. Muslims are very confused, they can't see the line between Islamic Identity and their Nationalistic identity...But if you look at current conflicts its all done under the banner of National flags...There is no Unity between Muslims...and West is doing it's best job to keep it like that, for e.g. the conflict in Iraq, at first glance it was about Weapons of Mass distraction and bad guy Saddam Hussein , now it turns out to be the hatred between Shias and Sunnis.

[Abu-Hafiza]

Assalamu alaikum
If you disagree with me brother fare enough ...I still believe the only major problem is disunity amongst Muslims and than comes all the rest. The First fitnah that you are talking about is very different to the current problems.. even though some of the Sahabis were fighting each other till the last moment they never forgot that they were brothers, and if you study more about it you will see that a lot of confusion was caused by Jews , who did everything to create this fitnah between Muslims...

I agree with you on some points such as we do not know who are our enemies and we lack in knowledge of our religion and current affairs. Muslims are very confused, they can't see the line between Islamic Identity and their Nationalistic identity...But if you look at current conflicts its all done under the banner of National flags...There is no Unity between Muslims...and West is doing it's best job to keep it like that, for e.g. the conflict in Iraq, at first glance it was about Weapons of Mass distraction and bad guy Saddam Hussein , now it turns out to be the hatred between Shias and Sunnis.

Sorry sister, I think I didnt make my position clear enough. I agree with what you were saying. What I was trying to say is that the wars between muslims were there throughout the history but most, if not all of them were because of the reasons you have given and other reasons too. Sorry if I was missunderstood.

[Aziz]

Muslim killing a Muslim a bad thing? But Muslim killing a non-Muslim is somehow OK?

I think any killing, regardless of religious affiliation, is bad.


An by the way, people who you define as Muslims, by certain people's measure are kuffaar, so killing them is justified by those people with the help of certain suras from Koran.


Delf.

you are either being a foolish or you don't know the difference between the belief and people who claim to follow it.
if you are under the first classification pls don't show up at any Muslim-related discussion. But If you are the second pls go and read Qur'an and some early Muslim's books and then come and say whatever you want.

[Delf]

Well, I understand what you mean, but I would dissagree. Muslim states have been in state of war throughout of history. It all started with killing of Uthman (RA) and he time of great fitnah (i.e. Aisha (RA) vs Ali (RA), Muawaiyah (RA) vs Ali (RA), Ummaviy khilafah vs Abbasid)

Then it continued on. There was a fatimid dynasty fighting abbasids, seldjuks fighting fatimids, Timur fighting Memluks (which led to destruction of the later), Timur fighing Bayazid, Yavuz Selim conquering Bag'dad, haramain and the whole of middle east (ruled by different muslim states), Shaybani fighting Babur, 3 khanates fighting each other. The funny thing is none of them was religeous warfare but all of them were using religion from time to time declaring jihad against the other.

But the problems today are mostly the product of exterior forces stirring the conflicts and unfortunately our muslim brothers and sisters buying that.

But it is not as simple as this. On one side there is clear injustice and colloborating with enimies of Islam and the local population (egsample-hamas:fattah fightings or karzai government vs taleban). Now what is one to do? Political activism and democrcy is failing, armed struggle only plays to the hand of the arch enimies... The problem is lack of awareness of muslims. This is due to lack of the faith, education and political mentality.

europe on the other hand had been in war throughout its history. But after second world war they have understood the power of politics, controll and the demage caused by wars. Thus they have built several complicated systems preventing them from fighting one another. The system is mutual interests which in case of war would demage all, win or lose.

Now look at this forum. There are some guys who are ready to kill fellow users because they think they are "wahhabis, extrimists" and so on. Others call their fellow muslims as "hawarij" and are actually advising to kill them "wherever one sees them". It is truly sad. We are confused as to see who are enemies are and unfortunately this has been the case throughout our recent history

Because Europe has understood that religion and politics should not be mixed. That King does not have a divine right for power. That Pope does not have power over every Christian. That government is only an instrument in hands of population for promotion of interests of population and if government does not do that, it must be replaced quickly through various mechanisms, most common being popular elections, without any bloodshed and violence. Where do you see in Muslim countries governments being quickly replaced without bloodshed and violence?

What instead do we see in countries where Islam is dominant religion? Every one branch of Islam declares itself "the only right one", that all others are kuffar and doomed (someone please quote that from Koran). We see politics being dominated by religious clerks, mullahs and muftis. Each one claiming moral superiority and divine truth. And each one is willing to proclaim Jihad for his own political goals (Iran maybe an exception). If politicians screw up, there is no accountability, they occupy their posts till death.

Entire Muslim Asia is a mess compared to developed and even developing countries. And it will stay this way as long as these countries will not understand that religion and politics do not mix. Turkey will rise, China and India will rise, South America will rise, even former USSR republics will rise to the level of developed countries, but Muslim Asia will sink. And when oil runs out or is replaced by alternative fuels, we will see a MAJOR violence outbreak, because all those royal families will be unable to keep status quo once windfall petrodollars will end. Only countries who are in right path are Turkey and maybe UAE.

Resort to violence is a result of absence and ban of non-violent forms of protest in Muslim countries along with inability to change government without violence. When freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, fair and open election of government is established in any country, resort to violence for resolving political problems decreases greatly. So, you would see all those banned/violent organizations forming political parties, participating in politics and most importantly, being held accountable for screw-ups when they are in office. So, instead of telling fairy tales of Khalifat, they would have to explain why import tariffs are so high, why economy is lagging. Come next elections - all those story tellers will be gone as crooked incompetent politicians.

And for anyone who thinks that I somehow support foreign policy of US or Israel - you guys got to be kidding. Just read my related posts, and you will see that I no more support those positions than positions of Muslim fundamentalists.


Delf.

[Ismoilzoda]

Ассаламу алайкум ва рахматуллохи ва баракатух

Жуда ачинарли мавзу...

Гарб давлатларининг сиёсий ўйинлари албатта молиявий масалага бориб такалади. Бойлик топиш илинжида улар нафакат мусулмон давлатлари, балки ўз эътикодидаги давлатларни хам талон-тарож килаётганини кўриб турибмиз. Бу ерда улар мусулмонларга нисбатан ишлатган методларини эмас (Ирок, Афгонистон ва Эрон), балки бошка методлардан фойдаланишади.
Уларнинг дастидан Жанубий Америка ўрмонлари кирилиб кетмокда, Африка давлатларида олмос сехри натижасида халклар, кабилалар бир-бирини кириб ташламокда.
Ер куррасининг кай бир жойида фойда орттириш керак булса гарбликлар ўша ерда биринчи навбатда дунёвий бойликларга хирс кўйишни ташвикот килиб келмокда. Бу уларниг энг кучли куроли деб хисоблайман.
Мусулмон давлатларида бу усулни кўллаш эса АКШ ва хамтовоклари учун алохида ахамиятга эгадир. Улар мусулмон давлатлар
бойликларидан фойдаланиш илинжида бу ишни устаомонлик билан амалга оширишмокда.
Гарб хирсий маданиятини мусулмон давлатларида имкон кадар кенгрок тадбик килишда уларнинг асосий куроллари мусика ва шоу-бизнес, кино
олами, интернет ва албатта порносаноат. Яъни имкон кадар мўминлар калбида хирсга булган кизикишини орттириш. Эсланг, АКШ харбийлари Ирокга бостириб киргандаги илк агитация ишлари нимадан бошланган. Бу Америка мусикий каналларининг Ирок радиоэфирлари оркали узатила бошлагани. Дальше-больше.
Бу хирсий маданиятдан фойда олиш мумкинлигини тушуниб етган ва узларини мусулмон хисоблаган баъзи фукаролар эса иймонини пулга сотиб, гарбликларга ўзлари билмаган холда ёрдам бериб келмокдалар. Бу эса гарбликларга факатгина кул келади. Хўш нега улар бунчалик муккасидан берилиб кетишди мусулмонларни хак йулдан адаштиришга.
Чунки бу дунё бойликларига хирс кўйган киши узининг мусулмон эканлигини аста-секин унутиб боради. Пул топишига(кандай йул билан топилиши энди унга ахамияти йук, топилса булди), узининг
хирсий эхтиёжларини кондиришига каршилик килган кишига нисбатан, у мусулмон булиш-булмаслигидан катъий назар адовати ошади.
Адоват эса маълум бир нуктага етганда урушга айланиб кетиши мумкин.
Вот и получается, что мусулмон мусулмонни ўлдиришининг асосий сабаблари бу дунё бойликларига, узининг хирсий эхтиёжларини кондиришга ўчлигидир. Бу хирсий мухаббатга каршилик килганларга эса осонгина "экстремист" тамгасини босиб кўйишяпти.
Хуш гарбликлар алдовларига хамма хам учмайдику, у холдачи? Ширин хурозканд билан алдаб бўлмайдиганларга нисбатан эса гарб давлатлари
турли хил иктисодий санкциялардан тортиб то харбий аралашувгача бормокдалар.
Хуллас хулоса килиб айтганда мусулмон мусулмонни киришидан асосий манфаатдорлар - дунёнинг бойликларига ўч булган кишилардир (хох
гарблик булсин, хох мусулмон).
Бунинг сабабларини сиёсатдан излайдиган бўлсак манимча барибир пулга бориб такалади.

Вассаламу алайкум..

.

[Abu-Hafiza]

Because Europe has understood that religion and politics should not be mixed. That King does not have a divine right for power. That Pope does not have power over every Christian. That government is only an instrument in hands of population for promotion of interests of population and if government does not do that, it must be replaced quickly through various mechanisms, most common being popular elections, without any bloodshed and violence. Where do you see in Muslim countries governments being quickly replaced without bloodshed and violence?
Delf I dont believe this is actually comming from you. I can smell double standards in what you are saying. As soon as the subject is "religion" you attack it left right and centre even though it doesnt comply with your principals. You know better then most people here that what you claim to be "muslim countries" it is the same old west and uncle sam who is supporting the bloodthirsty authoritarian regimes which west and uncle sam often brings to pover through bloodshed. Remember how Shah came to power? Or how Saddam came to power? Not mentioning the same old Saudi family, general Suharto or Hosni Mubarak. And when muslim countries attempt to change the government through democratic means what happens? Look at Palestine, hamas won through democratic elections, the west and in particular Uncle Sam has done everything in their power to start a civil war there. They cut all the aid upon which palestinians were dependent. Where did you see the violence?
How about Turkey? AKP has won a landslide victory with two thirds of the parliament being under their control. And when they were electing president, guess what happened? You went against your "democratic principles" and actually cried out with minority seculars saying "We dont want shariah, we want our belived ataturk who increased literacy from 20% to 90%". Remember your words? Now is it fair to talk about someone "failing" without even giving them a chance?

What instead do we see in countries where Islam is dominant religion? Every one branch of Islam declares itself "the only right one", that all others are kuffar and doomed (someone please quote that from Koran). We see politics being dominated by religious clerks, mullahs and muftis. Each one claiming moral superiority and divine truth. And each one is willing to proclaim Jihad for his own political goals (Iran maybe an exception). If politicians screw up, there is no accountability, they occupy their posts till death.

You must learn more about "branches of Islam" Delf, since when an atheist became an authority in Myslim theology? And where did you see politics being dominated by clerigy in muslim states?

And do you know why Iran is exception? Because it has a state according to its beliefs (i.e. shia state) and it has the power that any state would prevail.

Now comming back to the case of muslim clerigy dominating politics in the rest of muslim world. If only that was the case, the problems you have mentioned would shrink the next day. On contrary, the places where Islam did prevail, even for short period of time brought justice. Remember Somali and Union of Sharia courts? What was the valid excuse for uncle Sam and ethiopia to intervene when USC actually brough much wanted stability? And what is the circumstances there today? The only example you can bring would be "taleban afghanistan" in which many people are actually mislead. It was west who created taleban, it was west who radicalised taleban and it was west that ultemately left them and later destroyed. Who sponsored "terrorist" camps during afgan-soviet war? Who's begotten child was Mr. Bin Laden himself? Who was paying wages for taleban officials? And why not a single penny of aid went into Afganistan? And what do you expect? a war torn country that just managed to unify all the conflicting sides and establish a single county left without single penny, where people are starving and west is offering to "pay for restoration of buddahs" and nothing more, what do you expect of those people?

Entire Muslim Asia is a mess compared to developed and even developing countries. And it will stay this way as long as these countries will not understand that religion and politics do not mix. Turkey will rise, China and India will rise, South America will rise, even former USSR republics will rise to the level of developed countries, but Muslim Asia will sink. And when oil runs out or is replaced by alternative fuels, we will see a MAJOR violence outbreak, because all those royal families will be unable to keep status quo once windfall petrodollars will end. Only countries who are in right path are Turkey and maybe UAE.

Instability has nothing to do with religion. It wasnt religion that caused two world wars. It had nothing to do with religion. Religion had played no role at all in colonization and emperialism. Religion did not play any part in soviet intervention to Afghanistan. If religion would cause instabillity, it would be countries like Vatican and Israel that would be instable. Both are officially religious countries. But when they get support from seculars like yourself, muslims are being opressed. Islam has violent groups in it because west made them so since first world war. You know history man, why dont you remember it? Or is it convenient to ignore it if it doesnt suit your needs?

Resort to violence is a result of absence and ban of non-violent forms of protest in Muslim countries along with inability to change government without violence. When freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, fair and open election of government is established in any country, resort to violence for resolving political problems decreases greatly. So, you would see all those banned/violent organizations forming political parties, participating in politics and most importantly, being held accountable for screw-ups when they are in office. So, instead of telling fairy tales of Khalifat, they would have to explain why import tariffs are so high, why economy is lagging. Come next elections - all those story tellers will be gone as crooked incompetent politicians.

And for anyone who thinks that I somehow support foreign policy of US or Israel - you guys got to be kidding. Just read my related posts, and you will see that I no more support those positions than positions of Muslim fundamentalists.


Delf.
No, you dont support them, but when it comes to religion, especially Islam you abandon your "previous posts" and talk rubbish, the thing that doent hold ground at all. How many muslims inhabit this earth? Nearly one billion. How many of them are so called "extremists" and/or "terrorists"? Tiny minority and most either dont have popular support and/or actually financed by west or only take up armed struggle in the war zones like Irak, Chechnya, Afghanistan and so on. Or they are just labeled as terrorists just because they are against western and american interests. And unfortunately for you Delf, you have been eating, drinking and having as a dessert their propaganda, so called war for "heart and minds". You have still failed to comment on the fact that it is "democratic" "secular" and "modern" countries who are armed to teeth and who are actually attacking the other countries. Why is that? What do they need those weapons for? Suuuuuuuuureeeeeee they need it for "self defence" and "preemtive strikes" are self defence as well, or is it? When was the last time US was threatened and by who? Guys running around with AK47's agains U bombers and nuclear warheads? How come only muslim countries are being picked on and only tyrants and oppressors are being supported by west? You cant blame religion for everything Delf, religion makes a person better, it resolves the problem of crime, it cuts out corruption, it stops prostitution. When islam was state religion it was always considered to be a liberator, tolerant to any other faiths where science, architecture flourished and where people lived without the worry of their economical survival.

[ДЖИГИТ]

There was one artice saying: "... some of them went shahids in a battle in Vazaristan..." what a BS!

[Inspiredmind]

you are either being a foolish or you don't know the difference between the belief and people who claim to follow it.
if you are under the first classification pls don't show up at any Muslim-related discussion. But If you are the second pls go and read Qur'an and some early Muslim's books and then come and say whatever you want.


pls calm down.... teach person on his own way. (Ph. Muhammad)

[Professor]

It’s really hard to understand what is happening in Lebanon.
Why are Lebanese soldiers fighting so ferociously against their Arab brothers? Why are they pounding a Palestinian refugee camp so hard with artillery and tank guns and killing civilians?
Where were they last summer when their country was being invaded by the Israelis? Where were they when Beirut was being bombarded by Israeli planes and missiles... when their own brothers and sisters were being murdered?

This is another example showing that the only legitimate power in Lebanon is Hezbollah. Last summer and two month ago they tried to overturn Siniora government, corrupted and linked to western groups, mostly US and Israel.
Those refugee palestinians, weak and defenceless in front of Lebanese army strength, but those bustards attacking their positions well assuming they will no be retaliated.
When Hezbollah marched peacefully to protest Siniora government most Lebanese Sunni Moslems carried out anti-Hezbollah campaign, but when they're fellow brothers and sisters are killed (not by Hezbollah) by their own people they keep silency, WHERE ARE YOU NOW? Why you not going to call all Lebanese to come to Martyrs Square, because they're not Lebanese?
When Hezbollah fought back with Israel, their fellow arabs looked to the event from their televisions, but when Lebanese soldiers killing Palestinian Moslems they're rushing to aid them sending tons of arms and other equipments.

LONG LIVE HEZBOLLAH, the only Allah's Party in that region. They will die for Lebanon no matter who's inside in it's territories.
Oh Martyrs of Palestine, I bear witness of these cruelty and deceit against You!!.

P.S. That's why Hezbollah will never disarm as it was requested from Siniora and western governments, they follow Quran and they know what fitnah will be prepared against them, they could be in the same situation.