Is Jesus God?

[Professor]

If we read the Bible, in all its 66 volumes of the Protestant versions, or in the 73 volumes of the Roman Catholic versions, there isn't a statement or a verse where Jesus directly says: “I am God”, "Worship me" or "I am God the Son". Assuming that Jesus is God Almighty, it would be somehow strange to believe that God Almighty inspired many scribes to write thousands and thousands of scripture, including detailed stories and songs, without mentioning that he (Jesus) is God Almighty -- a fundamental and important concept, in any verse.

[Professor]

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]
In this verse, Jesus implies that he cannot do anything by himself and that he acts according to the will of the Father (God Almighty).

"For I have not spoken on my own initiative; but the Father Himself who sent me, has given me commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." [John 12: 49]
It is clear from the above verse that Jesus was given commandments from the Father (God Almighty), on what to say and speak. Assuming that Jesus was God Almighty, requires us to believe that God (Jesus) was accepting commandments from God (the Father). Shogird, is there any contradictions?

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." [Mark 10:18]

In this verse, Jesus replies to a man that calls him "Good Master" with "Why call me good ? There is none good but one, that is God". Similarly, assume that your friend calls you "Strong", and you reply "Why call me strong, there is none Strong but one, that is, Mike". Would this give you an indication that (Jesus is God), or (you are Mike) ?

[Demir Kağan]

From which side we are looking? As a christian? As a muslim?

If we will answer this as muslim here is the answer:
Gulhüvellahü ehad. Allahüssamed. Lem yelid velem yüled. Velem yeküllehi küfüven ehad.

[anchio]

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me." [John 5:30]
In this verse, Jesus implies that he cannot do anything by himself and that he acts according to the will of the Father (God Almighty).

"For I have not spoken on my own initiative; but the Father Himself who sent me, has given me commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak." [John 12: 49]
It is clear from the above verse that Jesus was given commandments from the Father (God Almighty), on what to say and speak. Assuming that Jesus was God Almighty, requires us to believe that God (Jesus) was accepting commandments from God (the Father). Shogird, is there any contradictions?

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." [Mark 10:18]

In this verse, Jesus replies to a man that calls him "Good Master" with "Why call me good ? There is none good but one, that is God". Similarly, assume that your friend calls you "Strong", and you reply "Why call me strong, there is none Strong but one, that is, Mike". Would this give you an indication that (Jesus is God), or (you are Mike) ?



Professor, i love your posts. but when i read, it makes my eyes blurry because of the font. Can you change it to normal font so that..maybe other users that feel same become active readers..

Thx

[Professor]

From which side we are looking? As a christian? As a muslim?

If we will answer this as muslim here is the answer:
Gulhüvellahü ehad. Allahüssamed. Lem yelid velem yüled. Velem yeküllehi küfüven ehad.
Mash'allah brother Demir elci hazretleri. :)

Professor, i love your posts. but when i read, it makes my eyes blurry because of the font. Can you change it to normal font so that..maybe other users that feel same become active readers..

Thx

Insh'allah I will change my font.
P.S. I like your signature as well.

[Professor]

Jesus (as) is a prophet and messenger of God. According to the tenets of Islam, "Jesus . . . was only a messenger of Allah" (Surah 4:171 from the Koran). It also say He was a sinless prophet who never achieved the greatness of the prophet Muhammed (sav).
__________________________________________________ _________
Jesus is a man who achieved great things. Among the groups who hold to this view is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints--the Mormons. They teach that Jesus was a preexistent spirit--but they believe that about everyone. They say that Jesus' distinctiveness is not that He was God, but that He was God's firstborn spirit-child.


"His humanity is to be recognized as real and ordinary--whatever happened to Him may happen to any of us" (Elder B. H. Roberts citing Sir Oliver Lodge in Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse, p. 11 note).
__________________________________________________ ___________
Jesus is a man no better than we are. "It is plain that Jesus is not God Himself" (Divine Principle, p. 255). These words clearly spell out the view of his Unification Church. Its teaching is that Jesus' value is no greater than that of any other man. Those who follow this theology say that Jesus' work was a failure.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Jesus is a great moral teacher. Some people don't reject all of Jesus' work on earth, though they do reject His claims to deity. William Channing of the Unitarian church said, "Christ was sent to earth as a great moral teacher rather than as a mediator."

[nuriddin]

Why is important that Jesus is not the Son of God?

Read John 9.35-38. Jesus admits that He is the Son fo God and allows a person to worship him (he had previously healed that person from blindness)

[Professor]

A favorite debating trick of Christian missionaries is to quote various passages from the Bible - both Old and New Testaments - and read the oft-repeated phrase "son of man" as "God" or "son of God."

Through this verbal sleight of hand, the unproveable - the alleged divinity of the Prophet Issa (peace be upon him) (Greek, Jesus) - is "proven."

Such debates frequently involve citation to Daniel 7:13 - a verse in which the "Son of man" is presented in Heaven to the "Ancient of Days."

An extensive examination of the Old Testament usage of "son of man," however, conclusively establishes that the phrase "son of man" carries no implication of divinity on the part of the person so described.
"Son of man" appears some 109 times in the King James Version of the Old Testament.

In at least 12 instances, the phrase clearly means "man in general" or "humanity" and refers to no particular person. Examples include:

"God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)"

"Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help (Psalms 146:3)"

"As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. (Jeremiah 49:18)"

"And Hazor shall be a dwelling for dragons, [and] a desolation for ever: there shall no man abide there, nor [any] son of man dwell in it. (Jeremiah 49:33)"

"As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. (Jeremiah 50:40)"

"Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth [any] son of man pass thereby. (Jeremiah 51:43)"

Other similar examples appear in Job 25:6 and 35:8, Psalms 8:4 and 144:3, and Isaiah 51:12 and 56:2.

In the vast majority of instances, however, "son of man" represents a word used in place of the proper name of an individual, like we might, in everyday speech, use "brother," "sister," "buddy" or a like expression in place of the actual name of an individual being addressed or referred to.

The Prophet Ezekiel (peace be upon him) is addressed by God as "son of man" some 94 times in the King James Version! Some examples:

"And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. (Ezekiel 2:1)"

"And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, [even] unto this very day. (Ezekiel 2:3)"

[nuriddin]

The part of the Christian world that you get your sources from (mormons, unitarians) do not speak for all Christians, they comprise maybe 1% or less of all Christians.

There are sects in islam that believe in the divinity of Jesus, especially some sufi orders.

I agree with your longer post. 'Son of man' refers to the humanity of a person and it is a title or a proper name that was given somebody.

But you cannot ignore that the title 'son of man' has a long usage among prophets - as you cited - in this case: Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Job, etc.

Most of all, I agree that God is not a man, He is not to be confused with human nature that He created.

John 5.30 and John 12.49 shows - when read in their longer passages - that prophet Issa was submissive to God, that God had initiative in everything prophet Issa did. That is easy to believe for a Muslim, as all prophets did the same, they listened and obeyed God.

[Professor]

Why is important that Jesus is not the Son of God?
Read John 9.35-38. Jesus admits that He is the Son fo God and allows a person to worship him (he had previously healed that person from blindness)

You may be another mega-version pseudo user within Shogirds' network, anyway welcome to the forum. :)

The chapter 9 of John is about the man whom Jesus recovered from blindness. And when people asked him why he was blind, Jesus (as) replied
9-3. Jesus said in answer, It was not because of his sin, or because of his father's or mother's; it was so that the works of God might be seen openly in him.
Later that man was taken to Jewish Synagogue for questioning and when they asked who he was he replied:
9-17. Again they said to the blind man, What have you to say about him for opening your eyes? And he said, He is a prophet.

So let's now talk about those verses given by you in the same chapter;
35. It came to the ears of Jesus that they had put him out, and meeting him he said, Have you faith in the Son of man?
36. He said in answer, And who is he, Lord? Say, so that I may have faith in him.
37. Jesus said to him, You have seen him; it is he who is talking to you.
38. And he said, Lord, I have faith. And he gave him worship.
39. And Jesus said, I came into this world to be a judge, so that those who do not see may see, and those who see may become blind.

If you carefully analyse this verses, when that man asked clear question (verse 36) from Jesus (as) to show or name him that Lord, Jesus didn't say (verse 37) I AM YOUR LORD or he didn't use present tense, or didnt say IT WAS ME WHO TO TREATED YOU, instead he used past tense and thus refering to verse 3. In verse 38 it means he taught him to pray and the last version is about his prophecy, so in neither of verses Jesus (as) clearly admitts he's the God.

[Professor]

The part of the Christian world that you get your sources from (mormons, unitarians) do not speak for all Christians, they comprise maybe 1% or less of all Christians.

There are sects in islam that believe in the divinity of Jesus, especially some sufi orders.

1. Most of the Christian groups scripts are corrupted, this is the reason to believe that they're not reliable.2. I pointed out some groups referring to Bible claiming that Jesus (as) isn't a God, so I'll be glad if you do the same with sufis referring to Quran about Jesus (as) diety. Thanks alot.

[nuriddin]

Thank you.

Who was the blind man talking to?

[Professor]

John 5.30 and John 12.49 shows - when read in their longer passages - that prophet Issa was submissive to God, that God had initiative in everything prophet Issa did. That is easy to believe for a Muslim, as all prophets did the same, they listened and obeyed God.
John 5-30.
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 12-49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

These verses clearly shows that Jesus (as) received every command from Allah swt. It is impossible that God receive commands from God, it's stupidity. If Jesus (as) was a God before landing then he transfered his power to another God in the Heaven then again he re-gained his governance after resurection, no logic!!!

[Professor]

Thank you.

Who was the blind man talking to?

You are welcome.

Blind man was talking first to Jews at the synagogue about how being blind his eyes opened then when he was expelled out of synangogue and he came to Jesus (as) then Jesus (as) explained to him why he was sent to this world and with the God' miracle he treated him and he began to see the world then he became a follower of Jesus's (as) religion.
John 9-3. Jesus said in answer, It was not because of his sin, or because of his father's or mother's; it was so that the works of God might be seen openly in him.

[nuriddin]

I'll reply to you when I wake up
thanks

[Professor]

I agree with your longer post. 'Son of man' refers to the humanity of a person and it is a title or a proper name that was given somebody.

But you cannot ignore that the title 'son of man' has a long usage among prophets - as you cited - in this case: Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Job, etc.

Most of all, I agree that God is not a man, He is not to be confused with human nature that He created.

If Jesus is God, then he created all world kingdoms and kings and princes he created live in the aristocratic life with all modern comfort but as a God he was born in the manger. No logic!!!!

[Professor]

I'll reply to you when I wake up
thanks
Sure. Растворимое кофе с сахаром и заменителем сливок думаю поможет в этом, мы же привыкли заменять всё и везде :)

[Professor]

I agree with your longer post. 'Son of man' refers to the humanity of a person and it is a title or a proper name that was given somebody.

But you cannot ignore that the title 'son of man' has a long usage among prophets - as you cited - in this case: Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Job, etc.

Most of all, I agree that God is not a man, He is not to be confused with human nature that He created.

Why do people call him the Son?

11. When Israel was a child he was dear to me; and I took my son out of Egypt.
22. And you are to say to Pharaoh, The Lord says, Israel is the first of my sons.
Quote: King David was his First Begotten Son if one excludes Hosea 11:1 & Exodus 4:22-23 about Israel:
Psalms 2:7 The L-rd said to him: "You are My son; today I have begotten you."
Then more special sons:
I Chronicles 22; 9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. 10 He shall build an house(MIKdaSH) for my name; and he shall be my son, and I [will be] his father and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. 11 Now, my son, the LORD be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the LORD thy God, as he hath said of thee.

If one rejects these proofs then they reject their own bible and it's no longer a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact, denial, and excuses.
Conclusion: If people made this myth or image of a man into being God then they thieved from both Moshiach and God with one persona thus creating the imposter Moshiach who would come first and be claimed as God.

[Professor]

How can Jesus be "Suffering Servant of G0D", yet still be God?

What about the GOSPEL OF THOMAS the Church tried to destroy. IT EMPHASIZES JESUS' SAYINGS, CASTING HIM AS A WISE MAN, BUT NOT THE SON OF GOD.
"...My Chosen One...will bring justice to the nations...will not falter or be discouraged until He establishes justice on earth..." (Isaiah 42:1-4). Where has he done this and how can one be chosen by God yet still be God?


If Jesus was part of God, why did he pray to God?

Why would he talk about God in a second person tense, like when in the woods praying saying "God, if you can lift this cup", or talking about the "Son of Man" in Luke 6:5?
Luke 22:69 "But from now on the Son of man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God." (proof they are separate people or else you're saying God is beside himself?)

[Professor]

How can Jesus be "Suffering Servant of G0D", yet still be God?

What about the GOSPEL OF THOMAS the Church tried to destroy. IT EMPHASIZES JESUS' SAYINGS, CASTING HIM AS A WISE MAN, BUT NOT THE SON OF GOD.
"...My Chosen One...will bring justice to the nations...will not falter or be discouraged until He establishes justice on earth..." (Isaiah 42:1-4). Where has he done this and how can one be chosen by God yet still be God?


If Jesus was part of God, why did he pray to God?

Why would he talk about God in a second person tense, like when in the woods praying saying "God, if you can lift this cup", or talking about the "Son of Man" in Luke 6:5?
Luke 22:69 "But from now on the Son of man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God." (proof they are separate people or else you're saying God is beside himself?)

[nuriddin]

John 9.35-37
Man asks: Who is the Son of God. Jesus answers: the Person that talks to you (that you have seen). It's true, there is no direct saying: I am the Son of God. But if someone asks you: Who is the Professor? And you reply: The one who talks to you, that you see in front of you! Isn't that a clear answer?

9.38. Jesus does not teach the man how to pray, but accepts prayer.

[Professor]

John 9.35-37
Man asks: Who is the Son of God. Jesus answers: the Person that talks to you (that you have seen). It's true, there is no direct saying: I am the Son of God. But if someone asks you: Who is the Professor? And you reply: The one who talks to you, that you see in front of you! Isn't that a clear answer?

9.38. Jesus does not teach the man how to pray, but accepts prayer.

While you were sleaping I posted some important notes on Jesus (as), you can read them all and then continue on every topic or sentence, otherwise from the morning you are just writing same single sentence that I have clearified for you already.
If you're still sleapy take another cup of coffee dear. :D

P.S. I didn't open Holy Quran that clearly saying who's Jesus (as), so we're discussing on Bible, so try to back up your statement from Bible or whatever staff you read.

[nuriddin]

Logic. Professor said it isn't logic that Jesus would submitt to God, that he prayed to God, and that he was a man but Christians make him a God.

In philosophical terms, people refer to this as substantia and persona. There is the apple substance - only one fruit called apple - but there are many apples/fruits. There is only one God (again, humanity should not be confused with divinity), but there may be more then one Person in godhood. And this is not idol worship or believing in many Gods (three or more). Christians believe in one god.

With Jesus, Christians believe that he acquired the nature of humanity, so He is the only Person in this world with 2 natures: human & divine. That's why he was born in a manger, like any other human being; that's why he prayed in times of need, distress, and suffering; But according to Philipians 2, he kept his divine nature while he was on earth, even though he put on the robe of a servant.

This is what most Christians believe. And it's very logic in regard to philosophical/theological thinking.

When he prayed, Jesus didn't talk to himself, he talked to God (the Father).

Titles 'son' and 'father' are not to be taken literary, they are metaphors decribing the relationship between the Two Persons within the divinity. As with human beings, both father and son are human, but the type of relationship between the two is described in these terms as 'father' and 'son', which means that the father has the respect and authority, but they work together.

Within the divinity, there should be no talk about God the Father begetting Jesus the Son (see surah 112) - Christians do not believe that there was any action of acctually begetting Jesus as Son. The titles, I repet myself, describe the type of the relationship.

I wrote all this so as to be talking concrete about things and not acuse the Christians that they have no logic. They have logic allright. Just that sometimes we don't get it. I hope I did a good job in the explanation.

[Professor]

Logic. Professor said it isn't logic that Jesus would submitt to God, that he prayed to God, and that he was a man but Christians make him a God.

In philosophical terms, people refer to this as substantia and persona. There is the apple substance - only one fruit called apple - but there are many apples/fruits. There is only one God (again, humanity should not be confused with divinity), but there may be more then one Person in godhood. And this is not idol worship or believing in many Gods (three or more). Christians believe in one god.

With Jesus, Christians believe that he acquired the nature of humanity, so He is the only Person in this world with 2 natures: human & divine. That's why he was born in a manger, like any other human being; that's why he prayed in times of need, distress, and suffering; But according to Philipians 2, he kept his divine nature while he was on earth, even though he put on the robe of a servant.

This is what most Christians believe. And it's very logic in regard to philosophical/theological thinking.

When he prayed, Jesus didn't talk to himself, he talked to God (the Father).

Titles 'son' and 'father' are not to be taken literary, they are metaphors decribing the relationship between the Two Persons within the divinity. As with human beings, both father and son are human, but the type of relationship between the two is described in these terms as 'father' and 'son', which means that the father has the respect and authority, but they work together.

Within the divinity, there should be no talk about God the Father begetting Jesus the Son (see surah 112) - Christians do not believe that there was any action of acctually begetting Jesus as Son. The titles, I repet myself, describe the type of the relationship.

I wrote all this so as to be talking concrete about things and not acuse the Christians that they have no logic. They have logic allright. Just that sometimes we don't get it. I hope I did a good job in the explanation.

look, let's first clarify, what's your religion and the second I never said that Jesus would submitt to God, that he prayed to God. Instead I do support these statements.

[nuriddin]

John 5-30.
I
These verses clearly shows that Jesus (as) received every command from Allah swt. It is impossible that God receive commands from God, it's stupidity. If Jesus (as) was a God before landing then he transfered his power to another God in the Heaven then again he re-gained his governance after resurection, no logic!!!

Remember?

I am somebody who tries to submit to the will of God, who wants to search the Holly Books in order to receive understanding for afterlife. I don't generally like polemics, but a nice learning environment where we could all learn from each-other.

[Professor]

Remember?

I am somebody who tries to submit to the will of God, who wants to search the Holly Books in order to receive understanding for afterlife. I don't generally like polemics, but a nice learning environment where we could all learn from each-other.
You are always welcome brother. You may search for the truth with your logic not emotions. Insh'allah Allah swt will guide you to the right way.

[nuriddin]

I am surprised you have not answered my post, from your point of view. Thanks you for the warm welcome.

[Abu-Hafiza]

Hurmatlik Nuriddin

So'rayotgan ko'pgina savollaringizga javoblarni http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php?t=38367 linkda topishingiz mumkin, agarda topilmasa, o'sha yerda so'rashingiz mumkin, inshaallah qo'limizdan kelganicha javob berishga harakat qilamiz.

Hurmat ila

[SweetHeart]

Is Jesus God?
Stupid question:)

[dorahon]

Is Jesus God?
Stupid question:)

short and nice LOL men here trying debate gals just in 2 words.I don't believe that Jesus is god nor he is son of the God.

[Osman_ALi]

Пророк Иса алейхи уассалям не бог!!!!
Евангелие (Инджил) был готов полностью спустя 700 лет (!!!) после смерти пророка. Изменялся десятки раз.

[Mr. Putin]

Iso alayhisalom Allohni quli va elchisidirlar. Ularni buyuk Parvardigorimiz Alloh bilan tenglashtirganlarga Yaratganni Ozi insof berip, togri yolni korsatsin.

[nuriddin]

Пророк Иса алейхи уассалям не бог!!!!
Евангелие (Инджил) был готов полностью спустя 700 лет (!!!) после смерти пророка. Изменялся десятки раз.

Niet, Osman Ali. Injil was finished much earlier! Please research carefully when you say something. There is proof that the Injil was mentioned during the second century in its present form, but it was generally recognised during the third century, with at least 300 years before the Qur'an was completed (after the death of Muhammad).

Let's make sure we make a difference between what we wish or what we believe and what the historical documents proove.
Spasiba

[Scofield]

it also depends on branches of the christianity. orthodox, protestant, catholic and stuff...

[Abu-Hafiza]

Niet, Osman Ali. Injil was finished much earlier! Please research carefully when you say something. There is proof that the Injil was mentioned during the second century in its present form, but it was generally recognised during the third century, with at least 300 years before the Qur'an was completed (after the death of Muhammad).

Let's make sure we make a difference between what we wish or what we believe and what the historical documents proove.
Spasiba
Nuriddin, what historical documents are you talking about?

Ok, I'll give you some facts:

The full available bible as we know it today was compiled no earlier then 350-370 AD. The earlier manuscripts, the earliest copy available is no earlier then 150 AD. Please note, that when we talk about manuscripts, we dont mean full gospels. Those are some PAGES. Besides there are at least 150 different books (some of them lost) that are labeled as Apocrypha by the church, the interesting thing is upon what criterias four gospels alledged acts and epistles were cannonised and the rest was labeled as apocrypha, although many of the books predate the ones that we have in bible today.

Besides many books were included in different versions of bibles, then removed all the way up to 16th century. the proof is King James Version that contained:

1 Esdras (Vulgate 3 Esdras)
2 Esdras (Vulgate 4 Esdras)
Tobit
Judith
Rest of Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4-16:24)
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus (also known as Sirach)
Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy (all part of Vulgate Baruch)
Song of the Three Children (Vulgate Daniel 3:24-90)
Story of Susanna (Vulgate Daniel 13)
The Idol Bel and the Dragon (Vulgate Daniel 14)
Prayer of Manasses
1 Maccabees
2 MaccabeesThose we dont find today in King James version. It has removed apocryphas in 1640.
For the full list of known and available manuscripts dating up to 250 AD visit http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/(the site has got most but not all of the manuscripts)

So nuriddin, if you wish we can debate on this topic, i.e. the origins of bible, the authorship of bibles, the compilation of bibles, the editions and forgeries in the bible and so on, I would e happy to debage you, any time, anywhere (online of course).

Well, there is an ongoing debate and your friend Shogird II is struggling to answer the facts brought forward. You can help him, he really does need some help. The ongoing debate is here:
http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php?t=38367

[nuriddin]

Thank you, Salafi. You were helpful in bringing up the historical documents. I reacted to a post that said that the Injil (not the Bible) was finished 7 centuries after the death of the Prophet Issa. Thank you for the links, i didn't know about them.

I'll let Shogird answer his questions.

You bring up a few issues worth mentioning (they were other which I think it is not worth debating on as you start with preconceptions, ex. forgeries in the Bible:
The Bible (New & Old Testament)
Apocrypha

As is the discussion here, I think we don't talk about the Old Testament (all the books you mentioned were part of the old testament, of which the jewish community debated and established the cannon, and most of the CHristians just accepted it), but about the apocrypha of the new Testament (or even the books that are not included in the apocrypha).

What do you think were the criterias for which some books were included and some were not in the Injil?

Thank you


[quote

the interesting thing is upon what criterias four gospels alledged acts and epistles were ca
nnonised and the rest was labeled as apocrypha, although many of the books predate the ones that we have in bible today.

[Abu-Hafiza]

Thank you, Salafi. You were helpful in bringing up the historical documents. I reacted to a post that said that the Injil (not the Bible) was finished 7 centuries after the death of the Prophet Issa. Thank you for the links, i didn't know about them.

I'll let Shogird answer his questions.

You bring up a few issues worth mentioning (they were other which I think it is not worth debating on as you start with preconceptions, ex. forgeries in the Bible:
The Bible (New & Old Testament)
Apocrypha

As is the discussion here, I think we don't talk about the Old Testament (all the books you mentioned were part of the old testament, of which the jewish community debated and established the cannon, and most of the CHristians just accepted it), but about the apocrypha of the new Testament (or even the books that are not included in the apocrypha).

What do you think were the criterias for which some books were included and some were not in the Injil?

Thank you


[quote

the interesting thing is upon what criterias four gospels alledged acts and epistles were ca
nnonised and the rest was labeled as apocrypha, although many of the books predate the ones that we have in bible today.

I dont understand why we shouldnt talk about Old Testament, isnt it part of bible? isnt it considered to be "Word of God" by christians? Anyways, if you say "Stick with new testament only" I will do, no problem as in fact, NT has more problems then OT. Have you visited http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ website? You can find Nt apocrypha in there.

OK, here we go, New Testament Apocrypha (please note, the followings are the ones that used to be part of cannonical bible but later removed):
Shepherd of Hermas
1 Clement
Acts of Paul

Interesting thing, the book of revelations (revelations of St. John the Devine) was considered to be "inauthentic" by early christians and later it was authentified and included in cannonical bible.

Other books included in some of the earlier versions of cannonical bibles are:

The Gospel of the Hebrews
The Gospel of the Nazarenes
The Gospel of the Ebionites
Third Epistle to the Corinthians
The Gospel of Peter
The Gospel of Nicodemus (also called the "Acts of Pilate")
The Gospel of Bartholomew
The Questions of Bartholomew
The Resurrection of Jesus Christand so on. While Syrianic Peshitta bible for example doesnt include 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude and Revelation

It is also worth noting that Chriatianity itself was not formed as we know it today till after forth century. There were many groups, churches and schools who were equal or even more powerful then "mainstream" or Pauline (that is widely regarded as catholic" )christianity during the Common Era. Examples are Ebionites, arianists and Marcionists. Those were "agreed" by Constantine backed trinnitarians and paulines as "heretics" and thus their books were labeled as "apocrypha", although many mainstream books later enjoyed the same status as well. The New Testament as we know it today was cannonised after several councils of pauline churches, most notable of them of course is Council of Nicea.

Most of the rejected books were rejected simply because it did not agree with pauline teachings.

Thus for example, the gospel of John was debated over and over for centuries regarding its authentity. Marcion for example alledged that Gospel of John is a forgery made by Justin Martyr while Gospel of Luke "was not authentic" according to Marcion. But, of course, once Marcion was labeled as "heretic" many tales of "Marcion sedducing a virgin" and "trying to by off catholic church" were made in order to discredit him.

Also it should be noted that many early writings, gospels, acts and epistles which did not agree with "official" church were hushly destroyed and lost. some fragments of some of them remain but most of them are lost. This is the exact reason why we dont know what they really said.

Not of course mentioning "Gnostic" and "coptic" writings.
Even after books were cannonised, there are still disagreements regarding some passages and verses in them. for example, Mark 9:29, Mark 16:9-20, Mathew 17:21, John 7:53-8:11 are not found in earliest and most reliable copies of the bibles. And first letter of John (1 john 5:7-8) is a masterpiece. It is something called Comma Johanneum. Here is the funny thing, King James Version still has it, many versions removed it and some keep it in brakets. The issue of brakets is funny as well:

There are hundreds of "omitted/added" textual passages which early manuscripts do not agree upon. For example:
Matthew 5: 22, Matthew 18: 11, Matthew 18: 15, Matthew 21: 44, Matthew 23: 14, Mark 3: 14, Mark 7: 16, Mark 9: 44, 46, Mark 11: 26, Mark 15: 28, Luke 4: 4, Luke 9: 55, 56, Luke 10: 1, Luke 17: 36, Luke 22: 43, 44, Luke 23: 17, Luke 23: 34 and many more. In those verses you find some texts which some of the manuscripts ommit and some of the manuscripts add. Some of the versions put them in brakets, some of the versions put it as a text.

Now the important question arises:
If the words in brakets are indeed Words of God, divinely inspired by Holy Ghost, then why some manuscripts dont have it? If they are later additions, then why is it considered to be work of Holy ghost?This itself is the proof that the bible has been tempred with throughout the history. Anyways, the conclusion is, the bible as we have it today is not authentic.

Now can you please specify what we are actually discussing? Are we dicussing the "authentity of the bible", "apocrypha" or the topic of this thread which is "Is jesus God"?

[nuriddin]

THank you, Salafi. Again very well informed. I commend you knowledge.

Just a few comments now, I'll come back to the details of your post a bit later.
1. I think that the subject about the authenticity of the sacred writings is very important to the debate about the divinity of Jesus. Professor started with the statement that the Bible does not contain any proof that Jesus is God, assuming that the Qur'an affirms that He is not. In my opinion, Professor has not proved that Jesus does not affirm that He is God.
2. How different is the process in which the Qur'an has been written, edited, compiled, and preserved down the centuries?
Thank you.

[Abu-Hafiza]

THank you, Salafi. Again very well informed. I commend you knowledge.



Just a few comments now, I'll come back to the details of your post a bit later.

1. I think that the subject about the authenticity of the sacred writings is very important to the debate about the divinity of Jesus. Professor started with the statement that the Bible does not contain any proof that Jesus is God, assuming that the Qur'an affirms that He is not. In my opinion, Professor has not proved that Jesus does not affirm that He is God.

I think we have a difficulty in understanding on what needs to be proven. When jews, the Old Testament, most of the true religions AND early christians claim and say God is One (Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD) it is the side who claims that jesus is God needs to bring proofs forward. So far noone could prove that Jesus did affirm that he WAS INDEED God. So, I guess we will come back to this point again.

Regarding authencity of the "sacred" texts, we can discuss this topic seperately if you wish. We also have to define on what we understand when we say the text is "sacred". Now point two:

2. How different is the process in which the Qur'an has been written, edited, compiled, and preserved down the centuries?

Thank you.

I hope you have some knowledge of history of Islam and Qur'an. I dont have to go into great details, but following points are clear and beyond despute:

1. Qur'an was revieled to Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) throughout his mission (for 23 years). As soon as the verse was revieled, it would be memmorised immediately by hundreds of followers.

2. By the end of Muhammad (SAWS)'s life there were thousands of companions of the prophet who memorised the whole Qur'an. Many of them have recited Qur'an from beginning to the end in front of the prophet. All of the companions have agreed on every single verse.

3. Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.

4. The verses were also written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.

5. Immedeately after the death of Prophet (SAWS) there were big casulties in Battle of Yamamah which woke people up on the reality that all the people are mortal and one day everyone who memorised qur'an would die unless qur'an is written as a book, so Abu Bakr ordered a compilation of qur'an. There was no editing or tampering with the any of the qur'an at all.

6. During the time of kaliphate of Uthman (RA), seven copies of Qur'an were made, all of them exist to this day. Please remember that during that time there were still hundreds of companions who memorised qur'an still alive and present there and there were further thousands of muslims who memorised qur'an as well. The simple thing is that if there was ANY attempt of editing, changing or ommiting any of the verses of the Qur'an, it would be immediately recognised. Qur'an is considered to be THE HOLIEST of the books and any attempt to change it would cause a rebellion.

7. Qur'an as we know it today has AUTHENTIC UNBROKEN CHAIN OF NARRATION that leads directly to Prophet (SAWS) himself thus elliminating any possibility of any of the verses being changed.

8. Qur'an is one book. All the first manuscripts are the same. All the companions comfirm it. there is no Comma Johanneum, apocripha or words in brakets in Qur'an. What we read today is what Prophet (SAWS) was reciting 14 centuries ago.

I hope these answer your questions regarding qur'an.

[JOUBERAR]

A favorite debating trick of Christian missionaries is to quote various passages from the Bible - both Old and New Testaments - and read the oft-repeated phrase "son of man" as "God" or "son of God."

Through this verbal sleight of hand, the unproveable - the alleged divinity of the Prophet Issa (peace be upon him) (Greek, Jesus) - is "proven."

Such debates frequently involve citation to Daniel 7:13 - a verse in which the "Son of man" is presented in Heaven to the "Ancient of Days."

An extensive examination of the Old Testament usage of "son of man," however, conclusively establishes that the phrase "son of man" carries no implication of divinity on the part of the person so described.
"Son of man" appears some 109 times in the King James Version of the Old Testament.

In at least 12 instances, the phrase clearly means "man in general" or "humanity" and refers to no particular person. Examples include:

"God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)"

"Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help (Psalms 146:3)"

"As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. (Jeremiah 49:18)"

"And Hazor shall be a dwelling for dragons, [and] a desolation for ever: there shall no man abide there, nor [any] son of man dwell in it. (Jeremiah 49:33)"

"As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. (Jeremiah 50:40)"

"Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth [any] son of man pass thereby. (Jeremiah 51:43)"

Other similar examples appear in Job 25:6 and 35:8, Psalms 8:4 and 144:3, and Isaiah 51:12 and 56:2.

In the vast majority of instances, however, "son of man" represents a word used in place of the proper name of an individual, like we might, in everyday speech, use "brother," "sister," "buddy" or a like expression in place of the actual name of an individual being addressed or referred to.

The Prophet Ezekiel (peace be upon him) is addressed by God as "son of man" some 94 times in the King James Version! Some examples:

"And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. (Ezekiel 2:1)"

"And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, [even] unto this very day. (Ezekiel 2:3)"




He is God Almighty
Isaiah 9:6 -- For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 7:14 -- Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel (Prophecy).
Matthew 1:23-- "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"-- which means, "God with us" (Isaiah 7:14 prophecy fulfilled).

Jesus is the image of the invisible God
Hebrews 1:3 -- The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
2 Corinthians 4:4 -- The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Colossians 1:15 -- He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation

[Prince]

I like this guy very much!
MashaAllah, he converted to Islam in 1997 and knows Quran dot to dot! :shock:
We born as Muslim.. and still suck..

Quote: Quran confirms Message of Jesus, Abram, Moses, Noah , Adam&Eve

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O0PDpGc1ffY&feature=related

[satik]

From which side we are looking? As a christian? As a muslim?

If we will answer this as muslim here is the answer:
Gulhüvellahü ehad. Allahüssamed. Lem yelid velem yüled. Velem yeküllehi küfüven ehad.
Abi, Ihlasi Turk herifleriyle yazmak kotu fikir bence.
Tecvid bozulmush...

[JOUBERAR]

A favorite debating trick of Christian missionaries is to quote various passages from the Bible - both Old and New Testaments - and read the oft-repeated phrase "son of man" as "God" or "son of God."

Through this verbal sleight of hand, the unproveable - the alleged divinity of the Prophet Issa (peace be upon him) (Greek, Jesus) - is "proven."

Such debates frequently involve citation to Daniel 7:13 - a verse in which the "Son of man" is presented in Heaven to the "Ancient of Days."

An extensive examination of the Old Testament usage of "son of man," however, conclusively establishes that the phrase "son of man" carries no implication of divinity on the part of the person so described.
"Son of man" appears some 109 times in the King James Version of the Old Testament.

In at least 12 instances, the phrase clearly means "man in general" or "humanity" and refers to no particular person. Examples include:

"God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)"

"Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help (Psalms 146:3)"

"As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it. (Jeremiah 49:18)"

"And Hazor shall be a dwelling for dragons, [and] a desolation for ever: there shall no man abide there, nor [any] son of man dwell in it. (Jeremiah 49:33)"

"As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. (Jeremiah 50:40)"

"Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth [any] son of man pass thereby. (Jeremiah 51:43)"

Other similar examples appear in Job 25:6 and 35:8, Psalms 8:4 and 144:3, and Isaiah 51:12 and 56:2.

In the vast majority of instances, however, "son of man" represents a word used in place of the proper name of an individual, like we might, in everyday speech, use "brother," "sister," "buddy" or a like expression in place of the actual name of an individual being addressed or referred to.

The Prophet Ezekiel (peace be upon him) is addressed by God as "son of man" some 94 times in the King James Version! Some examples:

"And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. (Ezekiel 2:1)"

"And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, [even] unto this very day. (Ezekiel 2:3)"




I want to ask you on simple question if Jesus is not the Son of GOD how can Mary be conceived if she was still a virgin and by whom,by the HOLY SPIRIT who is GOD HIMSELF and whos son is it anyway if she was not by a man at all (O I haven't thought about that.)

Son of man means son man not Son of GOD.

Dan 7 Says one like the son of man, and not son man.


13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Take note! HIS kingdom shall not be destroyed.

[zakir]

If you want to test a candidate that he is God or not then that candidate must fulfill four criteria of Qur’an and Bible
(Mark 12:29) Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.
(Quran 112:2) Say 'He is Allah, the One!
(John 5:37) ……You have never heard his (GOD's) voice nor seen his form...
(112:3) Allah the Independent and Besought of all
(Numbers 23:19) God is not a man, nor a son of Man
(112:4) He begets not, nor, is He begotten,
(isaiah 46:9) ……I am God, and there is none like me.
[112:5] And there is none like unto Him.

[zakir]

WAS JESUS PROPHT OF GOD ??

Others were saying, "He is Elijah"; still others, "He is a prophet like any of the prophets." (Mark-6-15). Yes we believe that he is one of the mightiest messenger of Allah

The woman said to him, "Sir, I can see that you are a prophet. (John-4-19)

So they said to the blind man again, "What do you have to say about him, since he opened your eyes?" He said, "He is a prophet." (John-9-17)

Some in the crowd who heard these words said, "This is truly the Prophet." (John-7-40)

Yet I must continue on my way today, tomorrow, and the following day, for it is impossible that a prophet should die outside of Jerusalem.'((Luke-13-33)

Fear seized all of them; and they glorified God, saying, "A great prophet has risen among us!" and "God has looked favorably on his people!"( Luke. 7:16)

And he replied to them, "What sort of things?" They said to him, "The things that happened to Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, (Luke-24-19-20)

And the crowds replied, "This is Jesus the prophet, from Nazareth in Galilee." (Matthew-21-11)

When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, "This is truly the Prophet, the one who is to come into the world." (John-6-14)

[zakir]

I want to ask you on simple question if Jesus is not the Son of GOD how can Mary be conceived if she was still a virgin and by whom,by the HOLY SPIRIT who is GOD HIMSELF and whos son is it anyway if she was not by a man at all (O I haven't thought about that.)

Son of man means son man not Son of GOD.

Dan 7 Says one like the son of man, and not son man.


13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Take note! HIS kingdom shall not be destroyed.
Son Of God Does Not Means To Be God. God has tons of sons. Even we are also sons of God. As Bible says
Adam is a son of God
(Genealogy of Jesus)..."the son of Seth,the son of Adam, the son of God."
Luke 3:38
Israel
"Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son."
Exodus 4:22
David
"He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son."
2 Samuel 7:13-4
Ephraim
"They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I ring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel's father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son."
Jeremiah 31:9
One of the Good People
"I will proclaim the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father."
Psalm 2:7
Melchizedek the Priest
"Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."
Hebrews 7:3
Other examples for addressing people as the children / son of God:
"You are the children of the Lord your God."
Deuteronomy 14:1


"I said, 'You are "gods';
you are all sons of the Most High."
Psalm 82:6

"Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God."
Matthew 5:9

"But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."
Luke 6:35

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
Matthew 5:44-5

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 4:48

"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty."
2 Corinthians 6:18

...",because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
Romans 8:14

...."they will be called 'sons of the living God."
Hosea 1:10

"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bouncs of
the peoples according to the number of the sons of God."
Deuteronomy 32:8

"You are the sons of the Lord your God;
you shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead."
Deuteronomy 14:1

It is very easy for Allah to do anything. Jesus (PBUH) had at least a Mother. But Adam (PBUH) did not had even mother.

Jesus Is A Man.
ye men of Israel , hear these word; Jesus
of Nazareth, was a MAN approved of God among
you by miracles, wonders, and signs.
(Acts 2:22)

“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor the son of man, that He should repent” (Numbers 23:19)

[JOUBERAR]

Son Of God Does Not Means To Be God. God has tons of sons. Even we are also sons of God. As Bible says
Adam is a son of God
(Genealogy of Jesus)..."the son of Seth,the son of Adam, the son of God."
Luke 3:38
Israel
"Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son."
Exodus 4:22
David
"He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son."
2 Samuel 7:13-4
Ephraim
"They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I ring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel's father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son."
Jeremiah 31:9
One of the Good People
"I will proclaim the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father."
Psalm 2:7
Melchizedek the Priest
"Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."
Hebrews 7:3
Other examples for addressing people as the children / son of God:
"You are the children of the Lord your God."
Deuteronomy 14:1


"I said, 'You are "gods';
you are all sons of the Most High."
Psalm 82:6

"Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God."
Matthew 5:9

"But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."
Luke 6:35

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
Matthew 5:44-5

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 4:48

"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty."
2 Corinthians 6:18

...",because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
Romans 8:14

...."they will be called 'sons of the living God."
Hosea 1:10

"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bouncs of
the peoples according to the number of the sons of God."
Deuteronomy 32:8

"You are the sons of the Lord your God;
you shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead."
Deuteronomy 14:1

It is very easy for Allah to do anything. Jesus (PBUH) had at least a Mother. But Adam (PBUH) did not had even mother.

Jesus Is A Man.
ye men of Israel , hear these word; Jesus
of Nazareth, was a MAN approved of God among
you by miracles, wonders, and signs.
(Acts 2:22)

“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor the son of man, that He should repent” (Numbers 23:19)



He is the visable image of GOD he is the quickening spirit of GOD HE is GOD with us HE is the "messiah" that GOD have promise us ,if the messiah haven,t come as GOD has promissed then all the people will still murmer about his coming in Islam they teach muslims that GOD do not have a son and it it is not permitted to have a son, ok what is the big issue about for GOD to not have a son as a intercessor?, then he do not need angels and "he do not need prophets to convey his messages" ,HE is "capable" and "powerfull" enough to do it himself,His angels and prophets are also intercessors ( muslims will argue that they are messengers) so why then rejects his son who is higher than angels and prophets to give us the "MESSAGE" of good news from GOD?


Muslims believe that JESUS is the "Messiah" right or wrong, with "what criteria should we classify the messiah to be a mere prophet"?, then any prophet or a apostle can be a messiah, or should he be from a higher rank.

[Bukharan]

He is the visable image of GOD he is the quickening spirit of GOD HE is GOD with us HE is the "messiah" that GOD have promise us ,if the messiah haven,t come as GOD has promissed then all the people will still murmer about his coming in Islam they teach muslims that GOD do not have a son and it it is not permitted to have a son, ok what is the big issue about for GOD to not have a son as a intercessor?, then he do not need angels and "he do not need prophets to convey his messages" ,HE is "capable" and "powerfull" enough to do it himself,His angels and prophets are also intercessors ( muslims will argue that they are messengers) so why then rejects his son who is higher than angels and prophets to give us the "MESSAGE" of good news from GOD?


Muslims believe that JESUS is the "Messiah" right or wrong, with "what criteria should we classify the messiah to be a mere prophet"?, then any prophet or a apostle can be a messiah, or should he be from a higher rank.

Even 5000 years ago there were people like you in Egypt saying exactly same words about their God Horus (Osiris). Later there were Persians and Greeks and Romans repeating the same thing about their Gods Mithras and Dionysus. Seemingly, now its your turn to spread this mythology.

http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php?t=46657

[JOUBERAR]

Son Of God Does Not Means To Be God. God has tons of sons. Even we are also sons of God. As Bible says
Adam is a son of God
(Genealogy of Jesus)..."the son of Seth,the son of Adam, the son of God."
Luke 3:38
Israel
"Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son."
Exodus 4:22
David
"He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son."
2 Samuel 7:13-4
Ephraim
"They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I ring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel's father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son."
Jeremiah 31:9
One of the Good People
"I will proclaim the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father."
Psalm 2:7
Melchizedek the Priest
"Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever."
Hebrews 7:3
Other examples for addressing people as the children / son of God:
"You are the children of the Lord your God."
Deuteronomy 14:1


"I said, 'You are "gods';
you are all sons of the Most High."
Psalm 82:6

"Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God."
Matthew 5:9

"But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."
Luke 6:35

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
Matthew 5:44-5

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 4:48

"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty."
2 Corinthians 6:18

...",because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
Romans 8:14

...."they will be called 'sons of the living God."
Hosea 1:10

"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bouncs of
the peoples according to the number of the sons of God."
Deuteronomy 32:8

"You are the sons of the Lord your God;
you shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead."
Deuteronomy 14:1

It is very easy for Allah to do anything. Jesus (PBUH) had at least a Mother. But Adam (PBUH) did not had even mother.

Jesus Is A Man.
ye men of Israel , hear these word; Jesus
of Nazareth, was a MAN approved of God among
you by miracles, wonders, and signs.
(Acts 2:22)

“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor the son of man, that He should repent” (Numbers 23:19)



He is the visable image of GOD he is the quickening spirit of GOD HE is GOD with us HE is the "messiah" that GOD have promise us if the messiah haven,t come as GOD has promissed then all the people will still murmer about his coming in Islam they teach muslims that GOD do not have and it it is not permitted ok what is the big issue about for GOD to not have a son as a intercessor, then he do not need angels and "he do not need prophets to convey his messages" ,HE is "capable" and "powerfull" enough to do it himself,His angels and prophets are also intercessors ( muslims will argue that they are messengers) so why then rejects his son who is higher than angels and prophets to give us the "MESSAGE" of good news from GOD?


Muslims believe that JESUS is the "Messiah" right or wrong, with "what criteria should we classify messiah to be a mere prophet"?, then any prophet or a apostle can be a messiah, or should he be from a higher rank.

[Bukharan]

Stop flooding the thread and read what I said. Do you have any answer?

He is the visable image of GOD he is the quickening spirit of GOD HE is GOD with us HE is the "messiah" that GOD have promise us if the messiah haven,t come as GOD has promissed then all the people will still murmer about his coming in Islam they teach muslims that GOD do not have and it it is not permitted ok what is the big issue about for GOD to not have a son as a intercessor, then he do not need angels and "he do not need prophets to convey his messages" ,HE is "capable" and "powerfull" enough to do it himself,His angels and prophets are also intercessors ( muslims will argue that they are messengers) so why then rejects his son who is higher than angels and prophets to give us the "MESSAGE" of good news from GOD?


Muslims believe that JESUS is the "Messiah" right or wrong, with "what criteria should we classify messiah to be a mere prophet"?, then any prophet or a apostle can be a messiah, or should he be from a higher rank.

[JOUBERAR]

Even 5000 years ago there were people like you in Egypt saying exactly same words about their God Horus (Osiris). Later there were Persians and Greeks and Romans repeating the same thing about their Gods Mithras and Dionysus. Seemingly, now its your turn to spread this mythology.

http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php?t=46657

This is not 5000 years ago give me an answer do muslims belive JESUS is the messiah or not.

[JOUBERAR]

Stop flooding the thread and read what I said. Do you have any answer?

Stop running away from the point!!!!!!!

[JOUBERAR]

Stop flooding the thread and read what I said. Do you have any answer?

Islam'sprophet,Muhammad,believed JESUS was the MESSIAH, ALLAH'S anointed messenger. Allah'speople (Muslims) are told to listen toAllah'smessengers (Koran, 4:171; 5: 111*).







Allah took Jesus to heaven where he awaits until the day of judgment when he will return to earth (3: 55). Muslim traditions teach that Muhammad died not knowing if he would be judged worthy to enter Paradise - where God has already placed Jesus. Muhammad is Dead and buried in Saudi Arabia. Jesus is alive both with God in heaven (paradise) and in Spirit with his followers on Earth. (Koran 3:55; 4:158,159) This is the great difference between Jesus and Muhammad. according to the Quran/Koran, Jesus is alive in Heaven with God. Islam affirms Muhammad is dead and buried.





The Korantells how Allah anointed Jesus, through a virgin birth to be the MESSIAH - Savior of the world, nearly five hundred and fifty years before Muhammad was born.
Muslims believe the Koran was written by God and is God's message to all people.If Jesus is what the Koran teaches he is/was, it is impossible for Muhammad to have replaced Jesus. There can be only one MESSIAH.
Jesus did the Messiah's (http://www.messiah-101.org/) work (opening heaven) 550 years before Islam's Prophet was born.
As God's messenger, Jesus explained, simplified, and demonstrated God's will and message, although the Jews did not believe in him. Jesus' "GoodNews" - the Gospel - is about God's love and forgiveness for all mankind. Muhammad's revelations, recorded in the Koran/Qur'an teach that:
1. Jesus was sent by Allah, who supported him with the Holy Spirit, to tell the world Allah's will (2: 87; 5: 110-117*).

2. Allah gave to the world Jesus, exalted him above all others, and supported him with the Holy Spirit as proof of his sovereignty (2: 253*).

3. Allah caused the miracle birth of John the Baptist to the aged Zechariah and his barren wife so John could be the messenger to announce Jesus as the Messiah (3: 33-45*).

4. Allah appointed Mary to be the virgin mother of Jesus, the Messiah (3:42-45; 19:12-22; 21:90*).

5. Jesus would be righteous [sinless] all his life (3:46; 6:86; 19:19*).

6. Jesus (http://www.jesus-101.org/) would be raised from the dead (19: 33,34*).

7. Jesus, Messiah and son of Mary, crucified, appeared dead and was taken up by Allah himself (4:157,158; 3:55*). He did not "appear to be alive" because he was dead. Crucifixion was the Roman method of execution similar to hanging. No one survived being crucified. See # 6. above.

8. Jesus was a messenger of Allah, who is to be believed (4:171*).

9. Allah taught Jesus his religion and commanded Jesus to establish it (42:13; 43:63*).

10. Allah caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow [the prophets], gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him (57:27*).
11. Allah strengthened the group of Jews who believed Jesus and his message, so they overcame those who disbelieved (61:14*).

12. The true message of Jesus and the prophets was perverted by religious leaders who were condemned by Allah (9:31*).

13. Long before the Prophet Muhammad, Allah revealed the Torah and the Gospel for mankind's guidance (3:3, 4, 48, 65*).

14. Allah taught Jesus the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. Allah would do miracles through Jesus and make him a messenger to Israel (3:48, 49*).

15. Allah gathered Jesus and caused him to be resurrected and ascended to Allah himself (3:55; 4: 158*).
Muslimsbelieve the Koranwas written by God and is God's message to all people. If Jesus is what the Koran teaches he is/was,
It is impossible for Muhammadto replace Jesus. There can be only one Messiah. Jesus did the Messiah's work (opening heaven) 550 years before Islam's Prophet was born. Only the resurrected Jesus can put a person in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Muhammad is dead and buried in the ground in Medina. Jesus is alive in Heaven with God, our loving Father.

[Bukharan]

Islam'sprophet,Muhammad,believed JESUS was the MESSIAH, ALLAH'S anointed messenger. Allah'speople (Muslims) are told to listen toAllah'smessengers (Koran, 4:171; 5: 111*).

There was no Jesus whatsoever. Its for your consumption. Why don't you want to give me an answer based on your reason rather than emotions? I said, Jesus is the same Mithras, Dionysus, Osiris (Horus) etc. Based on all facts given in the other thread. All of them were born on 25 December of a mortal virgin, had 12 disciples, crucified and resurrected after 3 days. It is just a mythological story related to the Zodiac rather than history. What's your answer?

[zakir]

He is the visable image of GOD he is the quickening spirit of GOD HE is GOD with us HE is the "messiah" that GOD have promise us ,if the messiah haven,t come as GOD has promissed then all the people will still murmer about his coming in Islam they teach muslims that GOD do not have a son and it it is not permitted to have a son, ok what is the big issue about for GOD to not have a son as a intercessor?, then he do not need angels and "he do not need prophets to convey his messages" ,HE is "capable" and "powerfull" enough to do it himself,His angels and prophets are also intercessors ( muslims will argue that they are messengers) so why then rejects his son who is higher than angels and prophets to give us the "MESSAGE" of good news from GOD?


Muslims believe that JESUS is the "Messiah" right or wrong, with "what criteria should we classify the messiah to be a mere prophet"?, then any prophet or a apostle can be a messiah, or should he be from a higher rank.

You are right, Allah does not need angels and prophets to convey HIS Message. HE can make any one Muslim but if he does that then where is the test???
This life is the test for hereafter. Allah is our creator. He is not like us.
(Numbers 23:19) God is not a man, nor a son of Man.
Jesus and Muhammad (PBUH) are men like you and me.
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]
If you say that Jesus (PBUH) is God because he was born without Father. Then you have to believe that Adam (PBUH) is a bigger God then Jesus (PBUH) because he was born without even mother.
I can prove from your bible that Jesus (PBUH) was not died. He was raised up alive not in spiritual form but in his physical body.
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (PBUH).
We cannot have eternal life by just believing that Jesus(PBUH) was died for our sins.
Jesus (PBUH) brought the message of truth; the one who follow his teaching will enter in heaven like Moses (PBUH).
Jesus confirmed that the Law of Moses is the way to "Eternal Life"
Luke 18
18. A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19. "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
20. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "
21. "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23. When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth.
24. Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!
25. Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26. Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27. Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
28. Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"
29. "I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God
30. will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."

[zakir]

Islam'sprophet,Muhammad,believed JESUS was the MESSIAH, ALLAH'S anointed messenger. Allah'speople (Muslims) are told to listen toAllah'smessengers (Koran, 4:171; 5: 111*).
Allah took Jesus to heaven where he awaits until the day of judgment when he will return to earth (3: 55). Muslim traditions teach that Muhammad died not knowing if he would be judged worthy to enter Paradise - where God has already placed Jesus. Muhammad is Dead and buried in Saudi Arabia. Jesus is alive both with God in heaven (paradise) and in Spirit with his followers on Earth. (Koran 3:55; 4:158,159)
This is the great difference between Jesus and Muhammad. according to the Quran/Koran, Jesus is alive in Heaven with God. Islam affirms Muhammad is dead and buried. ....
.................................................. .............................................

....Muhammad is dead and buried in the ground in Medina. Jesus is alive in Heaven with God, our loving Father.


Let Me make one thing clear to you.
Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (PBUH). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (PBUH).
We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt).
We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe.
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (PBUH).
We believe that he gave life to the dead with God’s permission.
We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God’s permission but he himself is not GOD.
Islam Clerly says “
They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so (4:158)”
Jesus (PBUH) was raised up alive and will come in this world again because he was only the prophet of God who was misunderstood by his people. He will come again and tell the truth and will die.
What ever I said are not my words. I quoted the bible. Jesus (PBUH) is not only the son of God. We are all sons of God.
The word TRINITY not exists in the bible. Jesus (PBUH) never said that I am God or worship me. But he said.
(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]
(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]
(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]
(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20](v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.
“Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A man approved
of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by
him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.” (acts 2:22)
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." revelation 19:10
Jesus (PBUH) was not came to replace the Moses (PBUH) but to fulfill. Muhammad (PBUH) was not came to replace to Jesus (PBUH). The basic Message of every messenger is the same. God is one. Even Jesus (PBUH) is predicting the coming of a messenger after him.
John
12</SPAN>"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

[JOUBERAR]

Islam'sprophet,Muhammad,believed JESUS was the MESSIAH, ALLAH'S anointed messenger. Allah'speople (Muslims) are told to listen toAllah'smessengers (Koran, 4:171; 5: 111*).

There was no Jesus whatsoever. Its for your consumption. Why don't you want to give me an answer based on your reason rather than emotions? I said, Jesus is the same Mithras, Dionysus, Osiris (Horus) etc. Based on all facts given in the other thread. All of them were born on 25 December of a mortal virgin, had 12 disciples, crucified and resurrected after 3 days. It is just a mythological story related to the Zodiac rather than history. What's your answer?

What are you a idol worshipper or nothing then say nothing because what you saying is nonsense.

[JOUBERAR]

You are right, Allah does not need angels and prophets to convey HIS Message. HE can make any one Muslim but if he does that then where is the test???
This life is the test for hereafter. Allah is our creator. He is not like us.
(Numbers 23:19) God is not a man, nor a son of Man.
Jesus and Muhammad (PBUH) are men like you and me.
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."
[The Bible, Acts 2:22]
If you say that Jesus (PBUH) is God because he was born without Father. Then you have to believe that Adam (PBUH) is a bigger God then Jesus (PBUH) because he was born without even mother.
I can prove from your bible that Jesus (PBUH) was not died. He was raised up alive not in spiritual form but in his physical body.
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (PBUH).
We cannot have eternal life by just believing that Jesus(PBUH) was died for our sins.
Jesus (PBUH) brought the message of truth; the one who follow his teaching will enter in heaven like Moses (PBUH).
Jesus confirmed that the Law of Moses is the way to "Eternal Life"
Luke 18
18. A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19. "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
20. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "
21. "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23. When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth.
24. Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!
25. Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26. Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27. Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
28. Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"
29. "I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God
30. will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."

I have asked do muslims believe that JESUS is the MESSIAH or not now you seek refuge with answers out of the gospel which muslims say is corrupted tampered with make up your minds if you say the gospel is corrupted why using it as reference.

I asked you is JESUS the MESSIAH or not ? Just give me a "yes or no" and then is HE the SON of GOD "yes or no".

[JOUBERAR]

Let Me make one thing clear to you.
Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (PBUH). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (PBUH).
We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt).
We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe.
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (PBUH).
We believe that he gave life to the dead with God’s permission.
We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God’s permission but he himself is not GOD.
Islam Clerly says “
They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so (4:158)”
Jesus (PBUH) was raised up alive and will come in this world again because he was only the prophet of God who was misunderstood by his people. He will come again and tell the truth and will die.
What ever I said are not my words. I quoted the bible. Jesus (PBUH) is not only the son of God. We are all sons of God.
The word TRINITY not exists in the bible. Jesus (PBUH) never said that I am God or worship me. But he said.
(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]
(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]
(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]
(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20](v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.
“Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A man approved
of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by
him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.” (acts 2:22)
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." revelation 19:10
Jesus (PBUH) was not came to replace the Moses (PBUH) but to fulfill. Muhammad (PBUH) was not came to replace to Jesus (PBUH). The basic Message of every messenger is the same. God is one. Even Jesus (PBUH) is predicting the coming of a messenger after him.
John
12</SPAN>"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

He will come again and tell the truth and will die,( How can he come again tell the truth and then" die" may be you'f missed something.)

[Adam & Eva]

jesus was no god, i am sure he was as ordinary as any of people living on the earth.

the thing he got to the point of prophet happened long after his own death around 4AD by a roman king.

but i dont really care if you believe otherwise.

[JOUBERAR]

Let Me make one thing clear to you.
Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (PBUH). No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe in Jesus (PBUH).
We believe that he was one of the mightiest Messengers of Allah (swt).
We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians do not believe.
We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (PBUH).
We believe that he gave life to the dead with God’s permission.
We believe that he healed those born blind, and the lepers with God’s permission but he himself is not GOD.
Islam Clerly says “
They did not kill him and they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so (4:158)”
Jesus (PBUH) was raised up alive and will come in this world again because he was only the prophet of God who was misunderstood by his people. He will come again and tell the truth and will die.
What ever I said are not my words. I quoted the bible. Jesus (PBUH) is not only the son of God. We are all sons of God.
The word TRINITY not exists in the bible. Jesus (PBUH) never said that I am God or worship me. But he said.
(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]
(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]
(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]
(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20](v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet of God.
“Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, A man approved
of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by
him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know.” (acts 2:22)
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." revelation 19:10
Jesus (PBUH) was not came to replace the Moses (PBUH) but to fulfill. Muhammad (PBUH) was not came to replace to Jesus (PBUH). The basic Message of every messenger is the same. God is one. Even Jesus (PBUH) is predicting the coming of a messenger after him.
John
12</SPAN>"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.


The basic Message of every messenger is the same. God is one. Even Jesus (PBUH) is predicting the coming of a messenger after him.

The basic message is the same now you making a big mistake there is nothing to compare only thing you can compare the quran with is the jewis folk lore fabels and apocrypa gnostic books so what muhammed aparantly heard from the jews when he was on merchant mission to Isreal.


The Story of Cain and the Burial of Abel's Body

By far the greatest number of portions of the quran QurŸan that can be shown to have pre-Islamic origins are those that relate to Jewish folklore and other fables that were woven around Biblical narratives in the Old Testament. The quran QurŸan has been described as "a compendium of Talmudic Judaism" as a result of the wealth of Midrashic and Mishnaic material that has been repeated in it. It is well-known that Muhammad could read neither the Scripture of the Jews nor their folklore and, as he heard stories of Jewish antiquity repeated in market-places and elsewhere, he was unable to distinguish fact from fable and both appear side-by-side in his holy book. The evidences appear to disprove the claim that the quran QurŸan was revealed to him from above and the conclusion can hardly be resisted that it represents various materials that came to him from conversations, story-telling and other sources in day-to-day contact with the Jews in Arabia.

Then Allah sent a raven who scratched in the ground to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. Surah 5.34

There is an analogy, however, to this statement in a rabbinical work of Jewish fables and myths known as the Pirke Rabbi Eliezer contained in the section of Talmudic writings known as the Midrash. It predates the quran QurŸan by many centuries. In this book it is said that Adam and Eve wept when they found Abel's body and did not know what to do with it as burial was unknown to them. Then came a raven, whose companion had died, and it took its body, scratched in the earth, and buried it before their eyes. Adam then decided to do likewise and he buried Abel's body in the earth.

[Uyyonli]

The basic Message of every messenger is the same. God is one. Even Jesus (PBUH) is predicting the coming of a messenger after him.

The basic message is the same now you making a big mistake there is nothing to compare only thing you can compare the quran with is the jewis folk lore fabels and apocrypa gnostic books so what muhammed aparantly heard from the jews when he was on merchant mission to Isreal.


The Story of Cain and the Burial of Abel's Body

By far the greatest number of portions of the quran QurŸan that can be shown to have pre-Islamic origins are those that relate to Jewish folklore and other fables that were woven around Biblical narratives in the Old Testament. The quran QurŸan has been described as "a compendium of Talmudic Judaism" as a result of the wealth of Midrashic and Mishnaic material that has been repeated in it. It is well-known that Muhammad could read neither the Scripture of the Jews nor their folklore and, as he heard stories of Jewish antiquity repeated in market-places and elsewhere, he was unable to distinguish fact from fable and both appear side-by-side in his holy book. The evidences appear to disprove the claim that the quran QurŸan was revealed to him from above and the conclusion can hardly be resisted that it represents various materials that came to him from conversations, story-telling and other sources in day-to-day contact with the Jews in Arabia.

Then Allah sent a raven who scratched in the ground to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. Surah 5.34

There is an analogy, however, to this statement in a rabbinical work of Jewish fables and myths known as the Pirke Rabbi Eliezer contained in the section of Talmudic writings known as the Midrash. It predates the quran QurŸan by many centuries. In this book it is said that Adam and Eve wept when they found Abel's body and did not know what to do with it as burial was unknown to them. Then came a raven, whose companion had died, and it took its body, scratched in the earth, and buried it before their eyes. Adam then decided to do likewise and he buried Abel's body in the earth.
He is NOT a GOD u stupid shit. Just give up!!! Nobody is a God

[JOUBERAR]

He is NOT a GOD u stupid shit. Just give up!!! Nobody is a God

What have Muhammed said you shall not harm someone with your tongue or your hands.


O IS THERE NO NO GOD.

you are definitely not a muslim.

Agression and language watch it no hard feelings.

[zakir]

I have asked do muslims believe that JESUS is the MESSIAH or not now you seek refuge with answers out of the gospel which muslims say is corrupted tampered with make up your minds if you say the gospel is corrupted why using it as reference.

I asked you is JESUS the MESSIAH or not ? Just give me a "yes or no" and then is HE the SON of GOD "yes or no".
I have given the answer. At least read with open eyes. I am repeating it again.
YES Jesus (PHUH) is son of God like you and me, we are all sons of GOD.
(Psalm 82:6) ……You are all sons of the Most High.

We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (PBUH).
Yes, Bible is corrupted. I quote bible for you the Christians because for Christians it is most authentic book. For me as a Muslim Quran is enough.

The basic message is the same now you making a big mistake there is nothing to compare only thing you can compare the quran with is the jewis folk lore fabels and apocrypa gnostic books so what muhammed aparantly heard from the jews when he was on merchant mission to Isreal

You have to believe in Jewish law if you are a good Christian. It is not what I said, it is what your bible said.
Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

[zakir]

[quote=JOUBERAR;1018946]The basic Message .....................Abel's body in the earth./quote]
IS QURAN Copied from Bible????
Brother historical fact tells us that the prophet was illiterate is sufficient to prove this. But Qur’an also says in Surah Araf, Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 157, that they follow the prophet. They follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet which is mentioned in their scriptures, the law and the Gospels. And today, if you read the Bible, it is mentioned in the book of the Isaiah, Ch. No. 29, Verse No. 12, ‘the book is given to a prophet who is not learned’. Qur’an says it is mentioned in the scripture and if you open the Bible, it is there in Isiah, Ch. No. 29, Verse No. 12, those orientalists who claim that the prophet copied from the Bible, Nauzubillah, they fail to realize that there was no Arabic version of the Bible when the prophet was present. The first, the earliest Old Testament in Arabic that we have was by R. Sadias Gaon in the year 900 C. E. that is Common Era. More than 200 years after the death of the prophet. And the earliest New Testament – Arabic that we have was published by Erpenius in 1616 about a thousand years after the death of the Prophet (may peace be upon him). I do agree that there are some similarities between the Bible and the Qur’an. That does not indicate that the latter had been copied from the former. It can also mean that they both have a common third source. All the revelations of Allah (SWT) have the common message of ‘monotheism’. They have the common message. All the previous revelations since they were time bound, they have not been maintained in their original form and have been interpolated. And there are several concoctions, which have been done by the human beings. But there are bound to be a few points, which are common. Just because of these similarities, it would be wrong to say that prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) copied from the Bible. Then it would also mean that Jesus (May peace be upon him) Nauzubillah copied the New Testament from the Old Testament because there are many things common in the old and the New Testament. Both of them had a common source. And suppose some one copies in an examination, I will not write in the answer paper, I have copied from my neighbor. I will not write I have copied from Mr. XYZ. Muhammad (May peace be upon him) and Allah (SWT) clearly indicate that Jesus (May peace be upon him), Moses (May peace be upon him), all the other prophets were prophets of God Almighty. It gives them due credit and due respect. If he would have copied, he would not have mentioned, that Jesus and Moses (May peace be upon them) were prophets of God. This proves he did not copy. Only based on historical facts it is difficult for a person to say which of the two is correct Bible or the Qur’an. But let us put it to test using our scientific knowledge. On the face of it, if you glance, many stories, many points mentioned in the Qur’an and the Bible are exactly the same. But if you analyze, there is a difference of chalk and cheese. Bible for example mentions in the first book, in the book of Genesis, Ch. No. 1, ‘the creation of the universe, heavens and the earth, it was created in 6 days and the day is described as a 24-hour period’. Qur’an too speaks at several places in Surah Araf, Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 54, in Surah Yunus, Ch. No. 10, Verse No. 3, several places that… ‘The heavens and the earth were created in 6 ayyaam’. The Arabic word ‘ayyaam’ is the plural of ‘yaum’ which means day. Yaum means day. It also means a very very long period or an epoch. So here when the Qur’an says the heavens and the earth were created in 6 epochs, very very long period, the scientists have got no objection to description of the Qur’an. But to say that the world was created in 6-twenty four-hour days is unscientific. The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 3 and 5, that… ‘The day and the night were created on the first day and science tells us that the lights were creating in the universe is due to a reaction of the stars’. And the Bible says that the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 14 to 19, says that… ‘The sun was created on the fourth day’. How is it possible that the result, that is the light was created 3 days before the sun? Illogical, it is unscientific and the earth, which is required for the presence of day and night, was created on the third day. Qur’an too speaks about the creation of the light and the sun but it does not give this impossible unscientific sequence. Do you think Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him), he copied from the Bible and he made corrections in the sequence? No one knew 1400 years ago. Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 9 to 13, that… ‘The earth was created on the 3rd day’ and Verse No. 14 to 19, says that… ‘The sun and the moon were created on the 4th day’. Today science tells us that the earth and the moon are parts of the original star, the sun. It is impossible that the earth was created before the sun. It is unscientific, Bible says that the vegetable kingdom in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 11 and 13, ‘the vegetable kingdom, along with the seed, seed bearing plants, herbs, trees, etc. were created on the 3rd day and the sun’, Verses 14 to 19 says was created on the 4th day. How can the vegetation come into existence without the sun? Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 16, that God Almighty created two great lights – the sun, the greater light to rule the day and the moon the lesser light to rule the night. Bible says that the sun and the moon have its own light. And as I mentioned earlier, Qur’an clarifies in Surah Furqaan, Ch. No. 25, Verse No. 61, that the light of the moon is its reflected light. How is it possible that our beloved prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) copied and corrected all the scientific facts. It is not possible. If you analyze the several stories that is mentioned in the Qur’an and the Bible, if you analyze it closely, there is a difference of chalk and cheese. Bible mentions the story of Adam (May peace be upon him) that the first man to be created on the face of the earth was Adam and the Bible gives the date approximately 5800 years ago. Science today according to the archeological evidence and the anthropological evidence says that the first human being was present tens of thousands of years ago. Qur’an too speaks about Adam (May peace be upon him) as the first man but does not give this unscientific date. Bible speaks about the story of Noah Alaisalaam, Noah (May peace be upon him) that there was a flood there was a universal flood, in Genesis, Ch. No. 6, 7, 8. There was a universal flood in which all living creatures on the earth were submerged and were killed in this flood except those people that were there in the Arc of Noah (May peace be upon him). The date according to the Bible is approximately in the 21st or 22nd century. Today archeological evidence show us that the 11th dynasty of Egypt and the 3rd dynasty of Babylonian existed without any interruption in their continuation in the 21st century BC. Qur’an too speaks about Noah, may peace be upon him and the flood but does not give a date and the flood which Qur’an speaks about is localized flood. It does not speak about a universal cataclysm. It says that the flood was localized to the people of Noah only, may peace be upon him which scientists today have got no objection. So you yourself can decipher whether the Qur’an has been copied or not from the Bible.

[JOUBERAR]

I have given the answer. At least read with open eyes. I am repeating it again.
YES Jesus (PHUH) is son of God like you and me, we are all sons of GOD.
(Psalm 82:6) ……You are all sons of the Most High.

We believe he was the Messiah translated Christ (PBUH).
Yes, Bible is corrupted. I quote bible for you the Christians because for Christians it is most authentic book. For me as a Muslim Quran is enough.

You have to believe in Jewish law if you are a good Christian. It is not what I said, it is what your bible said.
Matthew 5
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Why then have Muhammed then abolish the Sabbath?.But whoever obey these commands will be call great in heaven.
Allah, Islam’s God, didn’t rest after the six days of creation and Moslems see no need to rest on their “Sabbath” which is Friday, the sixth day of the week

Isaiah 58:13-14 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbath a DELIGHT, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shall honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shall you delight thyself in the LORD...”

According to the Holy Quran, the Final Testament, God does not get tired "Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him" (Quran 2:255), verifying the focus of the Sabbath is not rest, but remembrance

And verily we created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six periods, and naught of weariness touched us" (Quran 50:38 see also v. 15).

[JOUBERAR]

[quote=JOUBERAR;1018946]The basic Message .....................Abel's body in the earth./quote]
IS QURAN Copied from Bible????
Brother historical fact tells us that the prophet was illiterate is sufficient to prove this. But Qur’an also says in Surah Araf, Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 157, that they follow the prophet. They follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet which is mentioned in their scriptures, the law and the Gospels. And today, if you read the Bible, it is mentioned in the book of the Isaiah, Ch. No. 29, Verse No. 12, ‘the book is given to a prophet who is not learned’. Qur’an says it is mentioned in the scripture and if you open the Bible, it is there in Isiah, Ch. No. 29, Verse No. 12, those orientalists who claim that the prophet copied from the Bible, Nauzubillah, they fail to realize that there was no Arabic version of the Bible when the prophet was present. The first, the earliest Old Testament in Arabic that we have was by R. Sadias Gaon in the year 900 C. E. that is Common Era. More than 200 years after the death of the prophet. And the earliest New Testament – Arabic that we have was published by Erpenius in 1616 about a thousand years after the death of the Prophet (may peace be upon him). I do agree that there are some similarities between the Bible and the Qur’an. That does not indicate that the latter had been copied from the former. It can also mean that they both have a common third source. All the revelations of Allah (SWT) have the common message of ‘monotheism’. They have the common message. All the previous revelations since they were time bound, they have not been maintained in their original form and have been interpolated. And there are several concoctions, which have been done by the human beings. But there are bound to be a few points, which are common. Just because of these similarities, it would be wrong to say that prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) copied from the Bible. Then it would also mean that Jesus (May peace be upon him) Nauzubillah copied the New Testament from the Old Testament because there are many things common in the old and the New Testament. Both of them had a common source. And suppose some one copies in an examination, I will not write in the answer paper, I have copied from my neighbor. I will not write I have copied from Mr. XYZ. Muhammad (May peace be upon him) and Allah (SWT) clearly indicate that Jesus (May peace be upon him), Moses (May peace be upon him), all the other prophets were prophets of God Almighty. It gives them due credit and due respect. If he would have copied, he would not have mentioned, that Jesus and Moses (May peace be upon them) were prophets of God. This proves he did not copy. Only based on historical facts it is difficult for a person to say which of the two is correct Bible or the Qur’an. But let us put it to test using our scientific knowledge. On the face of it, if you glance, many stories, many points mentioned in the Qur’an and the Bible are exactly the same. But if you analyze, there is a difference of chalk and cheese. Bible for example mentions in the first book, in the book of Genesis, Ch. No. 1, ‘the creation of the universe, heavens and the earth, it was created in 6 days and the day is described as a 24-hour period’. Qur’an too speaks at several places in Surah Araf, Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 54, in Surah Yunus, Ch. No. 10, Verse No. 3, several places that… ‘The heavens and the earth were created in 6 ayyaam’. The Arabic word ‘ayyaam’ is the plural of ‘yaum’ which means day. Yaum means day. It also means a very very long period or an epoch. So here when the Qur’an says the heavens and the earth were created in 6 epochs, very very long period, the scientists have got no objection to description of the Qur’an. But to say that the world was created in 6-twenty four-hour days is unscientific. The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 3 and 5, that… ‘The day and the night were created on the first day and science tells us that the lights were creating in the universe is due to a reaction of the stars’. And the Bible says that the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 14 to 19, says that… ‘The sun was created on the fourth day’. How is it possible that the result, that is the light was created 3 days before the sun? Illogical, it is unscientific and the earth, which is required for the presence of day and night, was created on the third day. Qur’an too speaks about the creation of the light and the sun but it does not give this impossible unscientific sequence. Do you think Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him), he copied from the Bible and he made corrections in the sequence? No one knew 1400 years ago. Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 9 to 13, that… ‘The earth was created on the 3rd day’ and Verse No. 14 to 19, says that… ‘The sun and the moon were created on the 4th day’. Today science tells us that the earth and the moon are parts of the original star, the sun. It is impossible that the earth was created before the sun. It is unscientific, Bible says that the vegetable kingdom in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 11 and 13, ‘the vegetable kingdom, along with the seed, seed bearing plants, herbs, trees, etc. were created on the 3rd day and the sun’, Verses 14 to 19 says was created on the 4th day. How can the vegetation come into existence without the sun? Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verse No. 16, that God Almighty created two great lights – the sun, the greater light to rule the day and the moon the lesser light to rule the night. Bible says that the sun and the moon have its own light. And as I mentioned earlier, Qur’an clarifies in Surah Furqaan, Ch. No. 25, Verse No. 61, that the light of the moon is its reflected light. How is it possible that our beloved prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon him) copied and corrected all the scientific facts. It is not possible. If you analyze the several stories that is mentioned in the Qur’an and the Bible, if you analyze it closely, there is a difference of chalk and cheese. Bible mentions the story of Adam (May peace be upon him) that the first man to be created on the face of the earth was Adam and the Bible gives the date approximately 5800 years ago. Science today according to the archeological evidence and the anthropological evidence says that the first human being was present tens of thousands of years ago. Qur’an too speaks about Adam (May peace be upon him) as the first man but does not give this unscientific date. Bible speaks about the story of Noah Alaisalaam, Noah (May peace be upon him) that there was a flood there was a universal flood, in Genesis, Ch. No. 6, 7, 8. There was a universal flood in which all living creatures on the earth were submerged and were killed in this flood except those people that were there in the Arc of Noah (May peace be upon him). The date according to the Bible is approximately in the 21st or 22nd century. Today archeological evidence show us that the 11th dynasty of Egypt and the 3rd dynasty of Babylonian existed without any interruption in their continuation in the 21st century BC. Qur’an too speaks about Noah, may peace be upon him and the flood but does not give a date and the flood which Qur’an speaks about is localized flood. It does not speak about a universal cataclysm. It says that the flood was localized to the people of Noah only, may peace be upon him which scientists today have got no objection. So you yourself can decipher whether the Qur’an has been copied or not from the Bible.

Muhammed could not read nor write then his fo