The Brutality of September 15-16

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Wazzup?!!
Food for thought..
The Brutality of Spetmeber 15-16, 1982 Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps.

They shot anyhting that moved in the small streets. They smashed down doors and exterminated entire families who were eating evening meal. People were killed in bed, in their pajamas or wrapped in blankets. Often the murderers were not satisified with killing. In many cases, they cut off their victims' limbs before killing them.. They smashed the heads of young children and babies against the walls. Women and even young girls were raped before being axed to death. Sometimes people were pulled out of the houses and summarily executed in groups on the street. With axes and knives the militias spread terror, indiscrimintaely slaughtering men, women, children and old people...
In the Horch Tabet district of Shatilla camp, the entire Mikdad family was murdered at the beginning of the massacre:39 people, men, women and children, all massacred....Some had their throats cut, others had their bodies split open, among them a 29 year old woman called Zeinab. Her belly was cut open and the fetus put in the arms of the dead mother.Taken from Frangi-1983, "The PLO and Palestine" London:Zed Books

Sad, :(

[moshe]

January 20, 1976, Palestinians and their leftist allies attacked in force the Christian town of Damour which lay across the Sidon - Beirut highway about 20 km south of Beirut.

The relentless pounding the town received resulted in the deaths of many. In the siege that had been established on 9 January the Palestinians cut off food and water supplies and refused to allow the Red Cross to take out the wounded. Infants and children died of dehydration.

A plan was devised to evacuate the civilians and fortunately the majority of the population of Damour was evacuated by sea but about 500 civilians defended by some 20 Phalangists did not make it out in time.

Damour was captured, the Phalangists were executed, the civilians were lined up against the walls of their houses and shot, their houses were then dynamited.

Many of the young women had been raped and babies had been shot at close range at the back of the head. 149 bodies lay in the streets for days afterwards and 200 other civilians were never seen again.

In all, about 582 civilians had been murdered. The horror did not end there, the old Christian cemetery was next, coffins were dug up, the dead robbed, vaults opened, and bodies and skeletons thrown across the grave yard.

Damour was then transformed into a stronghold of Fatah and the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine). The massacre and destruction of Damour is best described by Becker in the book "The PLO".

[stud]

what's happening over there is not business of UZ, I think.

even though I do sympatise Israel, which is capable of dealing with wild aggressive neighbours, which dream to kill israelis everyday.

There are a lot of positive things to be learned from Israel (agriculture, education, security etc.).

[Akhee-Abdullah]

First of all, the message that I posted was about the brutal action done by Israel Special Forces. Secondly, you gotta refer to the real source. Thirdly,Even if PLO did that it does not justify to do those actions against civilians of the "refugee camps." Finally,IF PLO did that it would have been in the US toll of "terrorists." As Freestyler puts it,"have a break, have a kit-kat."

STD-you are absolutely right that it is not Uzbekistan's business but an international affair. But I never mentioned Uzbekistan shud take some action did I? Another fact, in 1970's Zionism was equated with racism, then later on they (UN) made changes in 1990 that it is not racism. Again now, they (The UN) made up its mind Zionism is a racism. Zionism=Israel are synonymous terms.

I would not learn anything from the "morons" who can do this much brutality against the native people of Palestine.

Cheers, :)

[moshe]

Israel and Uzbekistan do have a lot to offer each other.

Embassy of Uzbekistan in Israel (http://www.uzbekistan.org.il/)

[moshe]

First of all, th message that I posted was done Israel Special Forces.

Wrong. The massacre was carried out by Phalange militiamen. Their commander was a Syrian agent named Elie Hobeika.

Secondly, you gotta refer to the real source.

Here is a real source: From Israel to Damascus (http://www.geocities.com/moshe_madness/Cobra/intro.html)

I would not learn anything from the "morons" who can do this much brutality against the native people of Palestine.

Your mind is poisoned with hate.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Read the book-Frangi-1983, "The PLO and Palestine" London:Zed Books

Then you'll realize how inhuman these Israeli Special Forces were.Your source is nothing but a provocation. refer me to smth written by Western scholars and a printed book somewhere in the UK or the USA then I might think about buying your bull
Cheers, :)

[moshe]

Read "The PLO and Palestine." Then you'll realize how inhuman these Israeli Special Forces were.

The book is propaganda from a high-ranking PLO member. As if he would have anything truthful to say.

Your source is nothing but a provocation.

Why? Because it exposes the truth? Cobra was right there. You prefer the official Syrian version, no doubt.

refer me to smth written by Western scholars and a printed book somewhere in the UK or the USA then I might think about buying your bull

Why don't you ask the Lebanese themselves? The PLO raped their country, and turned it into a fiery hell.

[PEACE]

Moshe,
а не лучше бы вам,американским евреям,посоветовать своему президенту ,а заодно и Шарону с Пересом поучиться кое-чему у узбеков? Евреи жили в мире веками в Бухаре,Самарканде,Коканде.Мусульмане не трогали их никогда ,в отличие от израильтян, которые с удовольствием вырезают последние 50 лет арабов-палестинцев.
Почему бы им,израильтянам ,не взять пример с мусульман Центральной Азии?

А твоя "литература" и ссылки рассчитана на слабоумных,ты уж не обижайся.
Если две трети американцев с их куриным кругозором и верят всей этой пропаганде,то на этом форуме,к твоему сожалению,большая часть-это трезвомыслящая молодёжь.
Существует,помимо "Ассошиэйтед пресс",
"Рейтерс" и CNN ещё и Интернет :),где можно раздобыть правду.
У нас нет ненависти к евреям,но у многих здесь есть мозги :), чтобы понимать,что происходит в мире, кому нужна война в Афганистане и кем были произведены теракты в США.
Так что,лучше бы ты предложил что-нибудь существенное ,касательно борьбы за мир.

[Freestyler@]

Hmm, <PEACE>, ti chto o sebe voobrazil, govorya ot imeni "bol'shey chasti trezvomislyashey molodyoji"? Ya lichno ne v etu chepuhu, chto za vzrivami stoyat yevrei i uveren takih zdes' mnogo (yesli ne bol'shinstvo). Tak chto je, mi poluchayemsya ne trezvomislyashey molodyojyu?

Pochitay topic "Bukharan Jews" v Main Boarde, mojet koye-chto proyasnish' dlya sebya, pered tem kak bezpochvenno oskorblyat' drugih. A to pochemu-to slaboumnim ti zdes' nachinayesh' kazat'sya...

[moshe]

It was bad manners to join this board and start arguing. But the massacres have been used as a propaganda tool for many years. The Israeli connection is the only reason why it's commemorated. And most People don't know all the facts.

That is all I have to say.

[nobody]

stud (Nov 01, 2001 05:39):
..................

........................

There are a lot of positive things to be learned from Israel (agriculture, education, security etc.).

Yes , for example to kill 10 year old girl while she is on her home, or to kill 12 year old girl while she is in school , fire to the school full of children to revenge for the death fasict Jew (as British papers described him) , surround the village and massacre its people , then not to allow media to enter in, to shoot dead teenager boys throwing stone, to use real bullet instead of plastic bullet or high pressure water againist civilian demonstrators, massacre more than 30 people in a 4 days in revenge of a fasict one...........
The list is endless , as some suggest "to learn" from Isrealies.
May be we should learn to occupy others land and declare it as Uzbekistan??? Isreal has a very BIG and real experience on this. May be we should learn to call shamefully others home as ours?
Yesterday i've seen a picture, where Isreali soldier was preparing to shoot two kids-2 year old boy and 4 year old girl- with machin gun. And their mother stood between kids and Isreali to protect her children. May be we should learn how to send our soldiers to kill kids?
Why not? Because Isreal is more developed than us and it has right to kill people who less developed than they are. Of course Isreal is more developed technologically and agricalturally and etc. It gives to them to occupy others' lands, where they lived for ages, for a several thousands of years.
Is it your standards? Do you think the right to live in their own land depends upon how nation's economy or country developed? Is it your measures? Where is your consince then? Oh sorry , i forgot , you are developed and i am "wild". I have no right to ask you such questions. I should learn from you.

[nobody]

stud (Nov 01, 2001 05:39):
................

even though I do sympatise Israel, which is capable of dealing with wild aggressive neighbours, which dream to kill israelis everyday.

..........


Oh yes, arabs are agressive. They want to occupy the land of Isrealies. Do you have an elementary knowledge on history? If yes , you should know there was no territory called Isreal in the first half of the last century. Even if you look to the map which the UN proposed in 1948, more than 55-60% of nowaday Isreal belonged to Palastine and it was 1.5 time bigger than Isreal. But now , less than 10% of its territory belongs to the so called "Palastine Authority", which can't build even toilet in its own territory without enterferance of Isrealies.
So where is the implication of the UN decisions? When any Muslim country or any other country from the third world does not obey to the UN decision US and other "democratic" states do whatever they can. Thats good in one hand. But in other hand , why don't they make Isreal to withdraw its troops from the land of Palastine? The UN drawed the map for Palastine not Palastines themselves. Why then Isreal don't listen to the UN?

Oh yes, because Arabs don't want in westren way of life they are "wilds". Because they don't have as many cars as Isrealies it makes them "wild". Because most ordinary Arabs don't lie on the beach it makes them "wild". Is not it so?
No , i think i am a little bit wrong. The premerie reason you think them "wild" , because they are Muslims. Is not it so?
Is it your standarts? So anybody else in the world has the right to live in his own land, in his own home, but not muslims? This is your standards.
You know man , you have double standarts. When it is about others you cry about democracy and freedom, but when it is about Arabs or muslims, you support the one opposing them, even that one is facist and killer.
How do you feel if Russians come to Tashkent and declare Uzbekistan as Russia? Russia is not America but we have a lot of things to learn from Russians, in science, in technology , etc. May be you feel good because more developed people occupied our land? Most probably yes (according to your replies,if you don't have double standards). Do you go to live in refugee camp somewhere in Qoraqum or Qizilqum, giving away your home to Russians?
Oh yes, Jews people lived in Palastine somehow 2-3 or may be 1.5 thousand years before. What about white hunns who lived in Central Asia and moved to Hungary about 1.5 thousand year before. How do you feel if they come and invade our lands? May be you feel happy but not me. Or you have double standards? May be you think the laws which apply to everybody does not aplly to Palastinians or Arabs or Muslims?

[BuBu]

good reasoning <nobody>, agree with you

[Freestyler@]

I think the jews are entitled to their own state! But I also think they shouldn't have occupied Palestine and other territories beyond the area allocated to them by the UN. They are occupants!
However, the arabs are no better (I mean the neighbours of Israelis). They think by terrorising Israelis they can achieve something. Morons. The only thing they achieve is the brutal retalliation from the Israelis on innocent arab people. :(.
Terrorism is a coward and cunning war. You can never fight terrorists exclusively. Which is why it is usually the innocent people from both sides who ultimately bear the greatest losses, unfortunately.

[nobody]

Freestyler@ (Nov 03, 2001 05:23):
I think the jews are entitled to their own state! But I also think they shouldn't have occupied Palestine and other territories beyond the area allocated to them by the UN. They are occupants!
However, the arabs are no better (I mean the neighbours of Israelis). They think by terrorising Israelis they can achieve something. Morons. The only thing they achieve is the brutal retalliation from the Israelis on innocent arab people. :(.
Terrorism is a coward and cunning war. You can never fight terrorists exclusively. Which is why it is usually the innocent people from both sides who ultimately bear the greatest losses, unfortunately.

100 % agree. Both sides have terrorist. I don't think neither Jews nor Arabs want to live under scare or so bloodthurst to kill each other. Isreal must listen to the UN. And Arabs also should stop killing innocent Jews people. It does not give them anything , just some death of their own people.
I hope that they can negotiate.

[PEACE]

I'm agree with you, Nobody.
This war is useful just for "World Government",not for Jewish or Arab civilians.
But we must not be afraid to talk openly about this. There are many true information and alternative points of view (different from CNN or Assoc.Press ) in Internet,
just search for!

Freestyler, I don't want to say that you are "moron". I just want to say that there are 2/3 of Americans who are the victims of masonic system. This system has turned them to morons.
Don't let them to turn also you to moron.
(to be honest I thought you are more objective with regard to politics)

[stud]

nobody (Nov 03, 2001 04:15):
Oh yes, arabs are agressive. They want to occupy the land of Isrealies. Do you have an elementary knowledge on history? If yes , you should know there was no territory called Isreal in the first half of the last century. Even if you look to the map which the UN proposed in 1948, more than 55-60% of nowaday Isreal belonged to Palastine and it was 1.5 time bigger than Isreal. But now , less than 10% of its territory belongs to the so called "Palastine Authority", which can't build even toilet in its own territory without enterferance of Isrealies.
So where is the implication of the UN decisions? When any Muslim country or any other country from the third world does not obey to the UN decision US and other "democratic" states do whatever they can. Thats good in one hand. But in other hand , why don't they make Isreal to withdraw its troops from the land of Palastine? The UN drawed the map for Palastine not Palastines themselves. Why then Isreal don't listen to the UN?

Oh yes, because Arabs don't want in westren way of life they are "wilds". Because they don't have as many cars as Isrealies it makes them "wild". Because most ordinary Arabs don't lie on the beach it makes them "wild". Is not it so?
No , i think i am a little bit wrong. The premerie reason you think them "wild" , because they are Muslims. Is not it so?
Is it your standarts? So anybody else in the world has the right to live in his own land, in his own home, but not muslims? This is your standards.
You know man , you have double standarts. When it is about others you cry about democracy and freedom, but when it is about Arabs or muslims, you support the one opposing them, even that one is facist and killer.
How do you feel if Russians come to Tashkent and declare Uzbekistan as Russia? Russia is not America but we have a lot of things to learn from Russians, in science, in technology , etc. May be you feel good because more developed people occupied our land? Most probably yes (according to your replies,if you don't have double standards). Do you go to live in refugee camp somewhere in Qoraqum or Qizilqum, giving away your home to Russians?
Oh yes, Jews people lived in Palastine somehow 2-3 or may be 1.5 thousand years before. What about white hunns who lived in Central Asia and moved to Hungary about 1.5 thousand year before. How do you feel if they come and invade our lands? May be you feel happy but not me. Or you have double standards? May be you think the laws which apply to everybody does not aplly to Palastinians or Arabs or Muslims?

well, fisrt of all it's very arguable if there is a nation called 'palestinians', there are 21 arabic states called Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc. They all are arabs, as they call themselves.

Israel is a land of jews, long history tells about that, from this point they have every right to exist as a sovereign state.

and dear Nobody, before teaching history to others, learn it yourself first,

all wars against Israel was initiated by violent arabic countries, and what was the result - arabs lost, it is problem of them (just recall 6 days war).

the fact Israel temporary occupies some territories of neighbours could be justified for security measures, one can expect everything from neighbours, I am sure they will attact Israel give the first chance.

and watch what's happening all these days, suicide bombers blowing up civilians indiscriminately, thousand of violent people dreaming to dye for the sake of killing jews...
it's not fair to present israelis like killers and palestinians as martyrs, let's get not biased.

it's only my personal view, in a situation like that, being surrounded by such unfriendly neighbours the country achieves high level education, living standards is interesting area to be researched.

and lastly, I don't think it is a conflict between jews and islam, it's a conflict between arabs and jews, from this point I do sympathyse jews, since we had very peaceful jews living in our UZ, who contributed to every brunch of economy and society, as for arabs only memories about of capture of the region by Kutaiba and other invadors and destroying culture of Transoxania...

[BuBu]

it's only my personal view, in a situation like that, being surrounded by such unfriendly neighbours the country achieves high level education, living standards is interesting area to be researched.

Well, when you have USA behind to support any time, why not...

[Chitatel]

Well, when you have USA behind to support any time, why not...[/quote]

Well, when Syria, Egypt and Iraq had the second superpower- USSR behind to support, it was 5 million Israel, that won almost all wars against 100 million Arab nation.

[BuBu]

Won't argue with that, USSR supported arabic world. For every action there is a reaction. Let's consider that USA back in time decided to protect Palestinian people. To maintain its presense USSR would have to support Israel. That's politics. But, consider this:
1) When those wars occured, USA had enourmous advantage in strategic weapon. In 1961 it was as 14 to 1 (!!!).Think, for every russian atomic bomb there were 14 ready to launch from US.
2) Support from USSR cannot be compared with support from USA. For USSR it was kind of business: selling weapon (sometimes too old to use) to arabic world. USA supported with modern weapon, shared with MOSSAD intellegence sources. There was a famous example from 6-day war:almost all arabic MIGs were destroyed on ground without taking off simply because there weren't pilots for these planes among arabs.

Anyway this is all much off the topic. I see the matter as the presence of Israeli state in palestian territories is ILLEGAL by means of today's international law, norms, whatever and nobody gives a shit about it. It was ruled by United Nations but who cares?

I wrote without intending to offend or blame, but to see things with open mind and without prejudice in difference of nations, religion, etc

cheers

[Freestyler@]

<PEACE>, davay uje zakanchivat' eti subyektivniye zametki ob obyektivnosti vzglyadov drugih, ok?

[moshe]

Yesterday i've seen a picture, where Isreali soldier was preparing to shoot two kids-2 year old boy and 4 year old girl- with machin gun. And their mother stood between kids and Isreali to protect her children.

I saw the same picture. The soldier is pointing his rifle in the direction of Palestinian snipers, as the Mother and 2 Chlidren walk by. Your version is false.

Freestyler, I don't want to say that you are "moron". I just want to say that there are 2/3 of Americans who are the victims of masonic system. This system has turned them to morons.
Don't let them to turn also you to moron.

"The Masonic Conspiracy" is a common theme in Fundamenalist hate literature, designed to fuel hatred. This is scary stuff you believe.

[moshe]

Support from USSR cannot be compared with support from USA. For USSR it was kind of business: selling weapon (sometimes too old to use) to arabic world.

This is simply not true. The USSR supplied Arab armies with gigantic arsenals of modern weapons.

And it was a huge embarrassment for Russia when tiny Israel defeated vastly superior Arab forces with US-made firepower.

Anyway this is all much off the topic. I see the matter as the presence of Israeli state in palestian territories is ILLEGAL by means of today's international law, norms, whatever and nobody gives a shit about it.

What you forget to mention is that the Arabs attacked Israel first. And the war is still going on right now.

If the Palestinians were willing to Live peacefully alongside Israel, the IDF would have withdrawn 30 years ago! Most Palestinians still want Israel erased from the map. But this will never happen.

It was ruled by United Nations but who cares?

When the UN declared Israel a state, the Arab world ignored international law, and invaded Israel. But now they want UN resolutions observed, because it suits them.

I wrote without intending to offend or blame, but to see things with open mind and without prejudice in difference of nations, religion, etc

Your "open mind" is heavily biased (IMHO).

[Chitatel]

I'm agree with Moshe, both USSR and USA were deeply involved in the Middle East conflict. And it was not only weapon supply or military advisers.
During, the war in Lebanon in 1982, military units of USSR and USA navy were directly involved.
http://airbase.uka.ru/hangar/planes/russia/mig/mig-23/livan-1.htm
When those wars occured, USA had enourmous advantage in strategic weapon. In 1961 it was as 14 to 1 (!!!).Think, for every russian atomic bomb there were 14 ready to launch from US.

Yeah, in 60-s USSR was short in nukes. However this disbalance couldn't stop Nikita Khrushev from sending Soviet missiles to Cuba and bringing the world into the 'Missile Crisis'. Remember, it all happen in sixties.
Support from USSR cannot be compared with support from USA. For USSR it was kind of business: selling weapon (sometimes too old to use) to arabic world. USA supported with modern weapon, shared with MOSSAD intellegence sources. There was a famous example from 6-day war:almost all arabic MIGs were destroyed on ground without taking off simply because there weren't pilots for these planes among arabs.

It just ridiculous, aproximately in the same period of time, Vietamese who used the same Soviet weapon as arabs defeat US army. Probably pilot training in Vietnam was better ;)

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/losses.htm (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2848/losses.htm)

[PEACE]

Freestyler, OK :)

Moshe
----The Masonic Conspiracy" is a common theme in Fundamenalist hate literature, designed to fuel hatred. This is scary stuff you believe.----

Я верю в то,что видят мои глаза и в то,к чему я самостоятельно пришёл,анализируя разную информацию и размышляя.Логика и факты- упрямые вещи,Moshe :)

---When the UN declared Israel a state, the Arab world ignored international law, and invaded Israel. But now they want UN resolutions observed, because it suits them.---

Ты забыл небольшой нюанс: НИ ОДНО арабское государство не проголосовало: "ЗА" на том заседании ООН 53 года назад.

Кстати, скро-омная такая просьба:
намекни,пжлста, какие у тебя соображения по установлению мира на святой земле?

[LULIBACHA]

Ya viju ti chelovek slabogo uma... Smotri, kogda ti bejish bistree? Kogda za toboy begayut, ili ti za kemto... Tak vot, arabi napadali na Israil, i oni mogli ne delat etogo, no Israil ne mogla nezashitit sebya iz poslednih sil, i ne stoit pereuvelichevat' chto israelityan bilo 5 millionov a teh 100... :) Ti chto dumaesh Arabi vsego mira napali na Israel?
Chto ya hochu skazat, da, vas vsegda bili, i seychas vi mojno skazat narod isterichka... Esli chelovek ne lyubit russkih eto ok, esli chelovek ne lyubit turkov eto ok, no esli chelovek ne lyubit EVREEV... on ANTISIMIST, SAMIY PLOHOY NA SVETE CHELOVEK,DAJE MOJNO SKAZAT JIVOTNOE (eto evrei tak dumayut). U kajdoy natsii est vragi... ne tolko u vas, kak vi sebya nazivaete "izbrannogo naroda"... A v etoy voyne ya dumayu ne budet kontsa... I skajite spasibo arabam, eto blagodorya im vi stali umnee...A to chto vi bili glupiy narod, mojete ubeditsa i v Tore i v Biblii i v Korane... Vspomnite hotyabi kak vi bistro predavali boga i poklonyalis idolam... Thank you for your attention...

[Chitatel]

Mde, Lulibacha prostoy ti paren, bukvalno ot sohi. Khotya pohoje ti na bazare telejku katayesh, uj bolno u tebia intelekt "bazarniy" :-)
Mojno dolgo i terpelivo obyasnyat, chto nelzya sudit o tseloy natsii po otdelnim predstavitelyam. No boyus na tebia eto ne proizvedet osobogo vpechatlenia.
I ne nado o ludyah po sebe sudit, mojet ti bistro begayesh kogda za toboy gonyayutsya, a mnogie normalnie ludi prosto razvorachivayutsya i byut, tak chto jelanie gonyat nadolgo propadayet. Ne zrya Israel army schitayetsya odnoy iz samih effectivnih v mire.
Ya polnostyu soglasen s toboy, ne vse arabi napadali na Israel, takje kak ne vse 5 millionov evreyev s nimi voyevali. Tolko kogda odni arabi voyevali, drugie prodoljali prodavat Amerike neft. Toy samoy Amerike kotoraya snabjala Israel orujiem i toplivom. Tak chto vpolne veroyatno, chto v Israelskie samoleti i tanki bil zalit benzin sdelaniy iz nefti prodanoy USA bratyami arabami.
Nikto ne govorit chto nenavist k ruskim ili turkam, chem-to lutshe ili huje antisemitizma. Luboye proyavlenie netirpimosti osnovannoye na natsionalnoy, rasovoy ili religioznoy nepriyazni zlo. I s etim zlom nado borotsya.
I otkuda ti znayesh, chto evreyi dumayut, ti chto evrey ili dolgo jil v Izrael'e? Otkuda u tebia takaya informatsia? Skoree vsego takie dannie ti gde-nibud na bazare poluchil?
Ya ne sobirayus komentirovat ves tvoy bred o
gluposti evreyev, pohoje informatsiyu o Tore, Koran'e i Biblii ti toje podcherpnul gde-to na bazare ili v pivnoy.
Uvi bidlo ono v luboy strane bidlo, i takie ludi ne lubyat mnogo razmishlyat, im prosto nujno na kom-to otorvatsya.

Cheers