POCHEMU AMERIKA NEFIGA NE POGIBNET, A NAOBOROT POBEDIT MRAKO

[FIX]

Da potomu chto v Amerike lyudi zhivut luchshe i svobodnee chem v bol'shinstve drugih mest v mire. Potomu chto v Amerike umeyut uvazhat' kazhdogo cheloveka nezavisimo ot nacii ili religii bol'she chem vo vseh drugix mestah. Prosto sprosite u teh kto pozhil v Amerike, i nenado zlostnyh "umozaklyucheniy".
A to chto Amerika voyuet protiv mrakobesnyh voyak "specializiruyushihsya" na Jihade, tak eto vo blago ne tol'ko sebya, no i vseh drugih narodov Evrazii. Nado byt' ochen' glupym chtoby ne ponimat' eto.

[underloaded_]

Ne dumayu , chto, kak skazal Bush, amerike dostalos' za ee priverjennost' demokratii. Eta otmazka horosha dlia teh kto pitaet svoi mozgi popcornom i gamburgerami. Chto je, v Europe net demokratii?

Konechno talibi -eto mrakobesi. I nado borot'sia s nimi. Act 9.11.01 eto otkrovenniy terror. No vse je nel'zia provodit' politiku dvoynih standardov: vspomnim hirosimu i nagasaki, v'etnam, podderjku samimi US afganskih modjahedov.

[toje stranger]

I agree with underloaded, when Bush said that "we've been targeted because we promote justice and peace around the world" this is B.S. big time.

I spent a bit of time in u.s. and i can say that u.s. often has good intentions, i would not doubt that, but around the world it is viewed as a monstor because it often associates itself with governments which are politically unpopular. Take Iran shah for example, Egypet, King of Saudis is other unpopular regime. So by association it is perceived to be as tyranic as these leaders often are. and all that is compounded by Israel. Support to israel could not be explained by 'peace and justice" but it could be easily explained by the fact that u.s has strong jews community.

As for talibans, I don't understand one thing. these people were fighting and kiling Northern Alliance (NA), who are Muslims by themselfes. there are a lof fighters in NA who used to fight jihad with soviets. That is there are a lot mujaheedens, while very few talibans are in fact knew that war. and talibans were fighting agaist these people who were fighting jihad in its own time.

and now when US boms them, they run around calling for jihad. that does not make sense to me. they put military installations around the civilian villages and then they show how civilians are dying, saying look at the monster u.s., all these people want is to kill Muslims.

and do u remember what was the response of mulla omar when u.s. ask him to hand o.laden? he said he does not where the guy is! this is so stupid, entire countries after o.laden, guy has 300 or smth mln dollars, in the country where average wage is $1/month, and u r telling that u don't know where laden is?? what do u think entire world is collection of idiots? the only explanation is the fact that it is o.laden who controls the country

talibans could've handed him, they could've saved people, they could've get money from u.s. and help the nation, last thing these people needed was another war! what is the point now to show dying people when talibans did NOTHING themselves to prevent this war. instead they omar was saying that u.s. will never attack them. how can u play with human lives like that? they as responsible for so many dying Muslims as u.s. that bombing them.

and even if u.s would show the evidence (if any exist of cause) i don't thing they would hand him over. there was no cooperation in the beggining.

and who the hell laden is to determine who are the true Muslims and who are not? no human being can judge people, can look in their brains or hearts and see who is "right" Muslim and who is not. and Saudi themselves are full of it. they have been contributing to o.laden so that he will stay in afganistan and screw central asia, but will not touch them.

[SUN6500]

Because those idiot Talibananis have to declare jihad first and foremost against the ill-treatment of women and children, against social injustice, discrimination based on nationality, sex and religion. They have to declare jihad against severe uneducation of their children, so woman can be allowed to study and work alongside with men. This is what they have to announce their idiotic "jihad" for. Idiots...

[FIX]

Terroristy est' terroristy i im pofigu protiv kogo obyavlyat' "Jihad" -protiv Ameriki, Protiv Uzbekistana, Rossii itd itp.
Za 5 let svoego pravleniya Talibi okonchatel'no obosrali Afghanistan, a teper' sozdali "vozmozhnost'" obvinit' vo vsem teh, na chyi den'gi, vse eti gody, otpravlyalos' Afghanskomu narodu bol'shaya chast' gumanitarnoy pomoshi i edi.
Nado zhe byt' takimi poddonkami!
S drugoy storony, mnogie gosudarstva v regione teper' budut starat'sya poluchit' FREE RIDE, zhelaya US den'gi za podderzhku usiliy USA, kak budto Amerike eto nuzhno bol'she vsego. Ne day Bog Amerika ne smozhet dobit' etih poddonkov, togda deystvitel'no dadut FREE RIDE vsem okruzhayushim - tol'ko ne Amerika, a Islamskie extremisty.

[Asad']

Fix,

ti ne zabud, chto Amerika v vietname sdelal.... Na cheya blaga umerli, pogibli tam millioni vietnamci izza Amerikanskix pul i bomb?????? A v Afrike? ehhh, primeri mnogo blin...

Da, v Amerike uvajayut daje vsex nacionalnostey, a s kakogo perioda? Razve ne s seredini 20-ogo veka???

[FIX]

Asadbek,
Vietnamcy segodnya imeyut bol'shoe uvazhenie k Amerikancam potomu chto v toy voyne Amerikancy byli pravy - oni hoteli spasti Vietnam ot bolota Kommunizma. Pravda togda vo Vietname Kommunism vzyal verh i Vietnam upal v glubokuyu propast' kak i vse drugie Kommunisticheskie strany. Vietnamcy v bol'shinstve ponimayut chto esli-by togda Amerika tam pobedila, oni seychas zhili by namnogo luchshe. Istoriya eto uzhe davno dokazala i Vietnamcy seychas otnosyatsya k Amerike s ochen' bol'shim uvazheniem. Voz'mi hotya by Yuzhnuyu i Severnuyu Koreyu.
Tak chto, moy drug, vzglyani glubzhe i ty sam eto vsyo uvidish.

[Asad']

Fix,
ti naprimer s kakimi vietnamcami besedoval? S temi, kotoriye v Amerike jivut?
Vot ya lichno s mnogimi vietnamcami v Germany besedoval, oni virazili mneniye kotoriye tvoimi ne sovpadayut!
No eto ne oznachayet, chto oni bivshiye kommunisti, oni prostiye ludi, kotoriye ubegali kogda-to izza voyni iz svoix rodin.
Ti perestav, izza ideologie umerli millioni ludi!!!!!!!
I tvoya Amerika ne vsegda prava. Ne Vsegda!

Voyna- xotim ili ne xotim, eto ne 100%noe reshenie problemi. Etogo pokazivayet kakraz segodnya Afganistan.
Amerika daje ne xochet blin ostonovit voynu xotya v Ramazan, eto obidno. Oni uje daje ne dumayut o sudbi ubejishix, skora tam zima.

[FIX]

Asad,
To chto Vietnam byl zhertvoy Kommunizma, a ne Ameriki tebe ponyat' trudno, hotya ryadom prekrasniy primer Koreyi est'. Ya besedoval s Amerikancami kotorye poseshali Vietnam, eto i byl moy primer.
Nikto ne govorit chto America vsegda prava. Takogo ne byvaet. No pochemu ty tak uporno na etom nastaivaesh? Hochesh skazat' chto ona ne prava v voyne s terrorismom? Slava Allahu chto est' strana kotoraya tak rezko stala na puti fundamentalisticheskogo der'ma, kotoroe v pervuyu ochered' napryamuyu ugrozhaet moemu Uzbekistanu.
I chto teper' dat' etim terroristicheskim vyrodkam peredyshku v Ramazan? Tak oni, eti fundamentalisty oporochili imya Islama kak nikto drugoy! Kakaya im molitva? Oni dumaesh budut tiho milit'sya v Ramazan? Chem skoree ih dobit' tem luchshe. Che, zhalko mirnyh zhiteley? V Amerike tozhe gibnut mirnye zhiteli, tol'ko ne vsledstvie voennyh promashek, a ubivayutsya celenapravlenno.
Mozhet ty, kak nash dorogoy lider v proshlom, prizovesh priznat' Taliban v nadezhde mirnogo sosedstva? Poluchitsya - Kozlyonok mechtaet o mire s golodnym volkom? Razve ne tak?

[underloaded_]

Vse tak, Fix.
No vot est' raznie metodi resheniya problem. Tot metod chto ispol'zuet USA, daleko ne luchshiy. Mojet daje i opasniy dlia vseh nas. Vmesto zatrat v Voenno-Promishlenniy Kompleks, mojno i nujno deystvovat' proactivno, t.e. activnee pomogat' razvivayushimsia stranam zaranee. Seychas je ispol'zuetsia reactivniy metod, po principu "poka petuh v zadnicu ne klunet..." Bombejki v konechnom itoge sozdadut, vo-pervih, pochvu dlia nenavisti sredi millionov, vo-vtorih, razruhu i golod, chto yavlieatsia ideal'noy pochvoy dlia razvitiya mrakobesiya.
Podumay, pochemu vse sil'nee i sil'nee razdayutsia protesti v Europe. Ludi ponimayut tot chto delaet USA - eto daleko ne reshaet problemu, a mojet i usilivaet ee.

Cheers

[FIX]

Byt' proaktivnym i zaranee pomogat' razvivayushimsya stranam?
Takoy primer. Mezhdy 1992 i 1998 USA potratili 144 milliona dollarov v celyah sozdaniya v Uzbekistane rynichnoy economiki i razvitiya demokratii t.e. uvazheniya k pravam cheloveka. Ne poluchilos', rezul'taty absolyutno ne vpechatlyayut. Eto vina USA po tvoemu?
U arabov i samih deneg do figa i bol'she, a oni kak pomogayut bednym? Vahabismom?
Vmesto togo chtoby otstraivat' stranu, Taliby stroili mashinu mezhdunarodnogo terrora. Nekotorye i v etom umudryayutsya obvinyat' USA...
Konechno eto voyna vseh problem ne reshit, no kto ee nachal? Ne USA! Vseh terroristov voynoy ne ubyosh, no otstranit' gosudarstvenniy rezhim kotoriy ih otkrovenno prikryvaet dolzhno sluchitsya ne tak li?
Situaciya v Sredney Asii uhudshalas' do predela i bez USA. A kak teper' budet luchshe? Dozhidat'sya poka fanatiki stanut stroit' yadernye raketi?
Na samom dele, kazhetsya, situaciyu oslozhnyayut te kto, skoree neosoznanno, zashishayut interesy terroristov.

[FIX]

K stati razruha v Afghanistane dohodila do predela pri Talibane, etu zimu ozhidali bol'shoy golod eshe do Sentyabrskih sobytiy. Y dumayu na to Taliban i razvyazal voynu, potomu chto prostakov v mire mnogo i teper' im skazhut "vot, mol USA takuyu cvetushuyu stranu pogubili".

[Freestyler@]

<Underloaded>, a ti to chto nuh poteryal? Konechno voyna - eto ne shuri-muri. Konechno budut nejelatel'niye poteri. I pri jelanii talibi mogli bi legko ih izbejat' yesli b oni hot' chutochku pomogli s vidachey Bin Ladena i dopuskom mejdunarodnih nabludateley k sebe na terrotoriyu. Odnako oni etogo ne sdelali.
Poetomu v etoy voyne ya vinyu ne US, a imenno talibov, kotoriye palec o palec ne udarili chtob predotvratit' yeyo, skoreye naoborot.

Bilo bi glupo ojidat' kakih-nibud' boleye "mirnih" metodov bor'bi s terrorismom.
Ya lichno ne viju drugogo vihoda bor'bi s etimi fanatikami. K sojaleniyu terror porojdayet terror. Yesli ih ne unichtojit', ne dumayu, chto oni kogda-libo obrazumyatsya. Da daje yesli b oni obrazumilis', oni vsyo ravno doljni ponesti nakazaniye za svoi tyagchayshiye prestupleniya. K schastyu, amerikanci ponimayut, chto unichtojeniyem Al-qaidi i Ladena oni ne otdelayutsya ot terrora i chto nujno borot'sya krome vsego i v pervuyu ochered' s prichinami, a ne posledstviyami. Nadeyus' posle etoy voyni oni peresmotryat svoyu mejdunarodnuyu politiku i sdelayut dlya sebya pravil'niye vivodi. Ved' kak-nikak, ya toje uveren chto v konechnom itoge terror bil spravocirovan samimi amerikancami yesho zadolgo do vzrivov (desyatiletiya nazad, vo vremena Holodnoy voyni). Yesli b amerikanci poshli na peregovori, eto dalo bi znak dlya terroristov, a takje dlya vseh would-be terroristov, chto ih politika deystvuyet i prinosti svoi plodi, a etogo kategoricheski nel'zya dopuskat'!

Inogda bivayet tak, chto palec narivayet tak sil'no, chto yedinstvennoy al'ternativoy ostayotsya yego amputirovaniye, inache gnoy mojet vsosat'sya v krov', proniknut' v mozg i ubit' cheloveka. Jalko rasstavat'sya s pal'cem, no chtoj podelat', iz dvuh zol vibirayut naimen'sheye.

Keep it Wiser!

[underloaded_]

Ya ne prizivayu razdavat' den'gi nalevo i napravo.Vse delo v tom chto ejednevno tratiatsia desiatki millionov, na bombejki Afganistana. Odna raketa stoimost'yu v paru millionov dollarov razrivaet zemlu na territorii gde nahoditsia 1,5 Taliba. Vmesto etogo nado bilo eti millioni vkladivat' v obrazovanie, nauku i kul'turu tret'ih stran. A pravitel'stvam skol'ko deneg ne davay, vse proedyat, poetomu i tolku nebilo i net. I eto nado bilo delat' ne vchera, a let 20-30 nazad. U USA togda bilo bi bol'she soyuznikov, chem nenavistnikov. V etom i sostoit proactivnaya poziciya. Drugoe delo , chto voennoy mashine US net interesa delat' etogo. No grajdanam US est' bol'shoy rezon. Konechno, eto chrevato konkurenciey so storoni razvivayushihsia stran. No mir vsiako luchshe , chem chem ugroza mirovoy voyni.

[underloaded_]

Freestyler@ (Nov 07, 2001 14:22):
<Underloaded>,
1)...
Poetomu v etoy voyne ya vinyu ne US, a imenno talibov, kotoriye palec o palec ne udarili chtob predotvratit' yeyo, skoreye naoborot.

A ya vinu i teh i drugih. Odnih kak zachinshikov problemi, drugih kak usugubiteley ee.

2)
........K schastyu, amerikanci ponimayut, chto unichtojeniyem Al-qaidi i Ladena oni ne otdelayutsya ot terrora i chto nujno borot'sya krome vsego i v pervuyu ochered' s prichinami, a ne posledstviyami.

No eto eshe bol'shoy vopros ponimayut li oni eto. Kak oni mogut borot'sia s prichinoy, esli ih sobstvenniy prezident veshaet lapshu narodu o tom, chto prichina teraktov eto superdemokratichnost' ameriki (He-he!) A chto v Europe antidemokratiya?

3).......
Inogda bivayet tak, chto palec narivayet tak sil'no....

Chto bi palec ne narival , ne sleduet ego sovat' kuda ne sleduet :)

[Freestyler@]

Vse ponimayut chto ne sleduyet, no chto delat' kogda vsyo taki on narivayet?!?!

A naschyot Busha, ya soglashus'. Etot cowboy - prosto ne tot chelovek, v ne to vremya...

Slishal yego vcherashnuyu rech', kak on proiznnosit slovo nuclear weapons - umora :)? - Nyukelar weponz... I eto prezident USA

[referee]

There is always another side of the coin!And if the coins is USA!
America may be a free and democratic country but its foreign policy SUCKS! I am not going in detail about US 'undemocratic' policies towards the rest of the World.

About the war on terrorism: nobody considered bombing N.Ireland because terrorists operated from there, or Basque province because of ETA which is still bombing to bits Spanish people, or Japan with their terrorists and many more!!! What a person can claim that by simply bombing Afghanistan they would eradicate terrorists.
If you want to minimise civilian casualties and other atrocities you HAVE to send ground forces to sort out the mess! You can't fight the war with somebody's hands and lives! The US hypocracy again is evident in here, they'd RATHER destroy the country to ashes, kill by accident a few hundred/thousands civilians, create even worse humanitarian disaster THAN just sending some American troops, who are meant to fight and die if the need be!


there are always alternatives, if there is a willingness to look for them!

[sm1]

"About the war on terrorism: nobody considered bombing N.Ireland because terrorists operated from there, or Basque province because of ETA which is still bombing to bits Spanish people, or Japan with their terrorists and many more!!! What a person can claim that by simply bombing Afghanistan they would eradicate terrorists."

However neither Spain, nor Japan supports and funds terrorism, neither these countries are funded by terrorism. They also fight with, and try to eradicate it. Talibans receive finanicing from terrorism, they gave safe heaven and support to terrorist from accross the globe.

[Freestyler@]

I agree with <sm1>. Don't forget also about the extent of the 9.11 terrorist attacks!

Besides, there ARE already ground forces in Afghanistan, while special forces have been involved from the outset of the war, which for obvious reasons was kept under secret.

[FIX]

O.K. Some people are critical about the foreight policy of the USA. In general there is nothing wrong with criticism of course. But in this context, what is your point? What in your oppinion the US should do now? Forget about the past mistakes of the US foreign policy, who does not make mistakes?
The point is, what is that better solution that makes you to criticize the current US acts?
To calm down and negociate with the terrorists?
To tolerate Taliban's total ignorance or aggression against the values of the civilization?
Do you think that would make this World better place then?
May be you know solution that the Aamerican leaders do not know yet....
What is that?

[Anger]

Karoche govorya, Bin Ladenni bilmadimu no Tolibla haqida toplagan ma'lumotimdan hulosa qilib "Toliblani onasini eshshe sikvotgan bo'lsa Ey gap yoq deb o'zim shag'am tutib turgan bo'lardim"

I wish u All "Peace" Guys

[referee]

sm1 (Nov 08, 2001 11:05):
"About the war on terrorism: nobody considered bombing N.Ireland because terrorists operated from there, or Basque province because of ETA which is still bombing to bits Spanish people, or Japan with their terrorists and many more!!! What a person can claim that by simply bombing Afghanistan they would eradicate terrorists."

However neither Spain, nor Japan supports and funds terrorism, neither these countries are funded by terrorism. They also fight with, and try to eradicate it. Talibans receive finanicing from terrorism, they gave safe heaven and support to terrorist from accross the globe.


I suppose you have missed part of the evidence that shows that funding for IRA and Seinfein has come from donations in the US and Ireland, as much funding for Bin Laden! The same with ETA, they can't exist wihtout popular support and finance, and if you knew more details on those hot spots that you would realise that there are more common grounds for International terrorism in Spain, Ireland etc. and in Afghanistan.

And, you have forgotten that Talebans have never been recognized as a GOVERNMENT by the world community, SO your talk of a GOVERNMENT-SUPPORTED terrorism is nonsense!

And, thirdly, MY POINT has been that just because terrorists OPERATE from a country has not previousely meant to bomb it to pieces: so why has it now become an undeserved destiny for Afghan people?????

[Propavshiy]

Amerika mojet imenno v etoy voyne ne pogibnet... No eto mojet bit nachalom kontsa! Zdes' mnogie podderjivayut US. Ok, ponimayu, vam ponravilos tam, chestno skaju mne toje :), no est' odno no...Pochem u US tak mnogo vragov? Ya dumayu izza politiki dvoynih standartov US... Vspomnite do Sept 11, US kritikovala Rossiyu za ee politiku v Chechne, a chto seychas govoryat :) (mi podderjivaem deystviya rossii v chechne...ok, podderjivayte, no pochemu bombili Serbiyu, oni ved' toje hoteli sohranit teritorialnuyu tselosnost', no ob etom zabili) Ili te je talibi i Ben-Laden, kto ih porodil? Kto ih finansiroval? A ved' vse eto bilo sdelano chtob USSR ne pobedili tu voynu, i oni ne pobedili... No chto sdelala Amerika posle etogo, prosto zabila svoih zarodishey, i vot rezul'tat!
Konechno, mir bez talibov i im podobnih fanatikov bil bi namnogo spokoynee... No chto delat? Ih podderjivaet ih neobrozovanniy narod, I vmesto togo chtob tratit' milliardi na to chtob bombit' i bez togo razrushennuyu stranu, mojno bilobi pribegat' k drugim sposobam bor'bi. Talibov sperva nujno bilo razrushat iznutri, po printsipu "razdelyay i vlastvuy". No, vlastyam US ne terpitsa bistrenko kakbi nakazat teroristov, i tem samim opravdat sebya pered svoim narodom, I oni deystvitel'no dumali oni dobyutsa uspehov ochen bistro, no netje... Talibi eshe derjatsa, i ih glupiy narod sjigaet produkti gumanitarnoy pomoshi. I eta voyna obeshaet bit' prodoljitel'noy... A eto krayne nevigodno US, vot poetomu eto vpolne mojet bit nachalom kontsa gospodstva US v mire... Vse Derjavi kogdanibud' padayut, i eto neizbejno. No eto proizaydet ne v odin den i daje ne v odin god...Tak chto,,,, te kto v US, kak i ya :) mojem ne volnovatsa. I hochu obnadejit, fanatiki nekogda ne pobedyat, potomu chto to chto oni hotyat eto absurd. Vmesto Ameriki mirovoe gospodstvo uje pereydet v East Asia...
I naschet islamskogo terorisma, davayte mislenno poschitaem... Kto bol'she ubival v mire... Hristiane? Musul'mane? ili drugie? Kto nachal pervuyu mirovuyu voynu? A vtoryu? Musul'manskie strani??? ili krestovie pohodi? I kogda v uzb. ili v Rossii vzrivayut zdaniya, jilie doma eto ok... a kogda v US, to ves' mir doljen podelitsa na svoih i chujih? Chto ya hochu skazat': V mire net i ne doljno bit sverhgosudarstv s sverhnatsiyami(vot odna strana dumala ona luchshe i sil'nee vseh, chto sluchilos? Odin den' izmenil VSE!!!). Vspominayu, bush nedavno v kitaye skazal: "Mi dali im vibor, oni nam vidadut Osama, ili mi nachnem bombejdi. Oni vibrali vtoroe, i eto ochen nepravilnoe reshenie(i neodnoznachno ego glaza smeyalis, chto mol' mi im pokajem kus'kinu mat'). Ok, jdemsss.....Kogdaje vi pokajete.
Thanx for you attention...
Propavshiy

[Propavshiy]

Narod, vot chto govorit bivshiy President: http://www.lenta.ru/world/2001/11/09/clinton/
I mnogie iz vas podderijavayut etu stranu??? Chto ya dumayu: chto tvoritsa v mire eto kasha-parasha... V ney net sovsem nevinnih, net belih voron, vse VINOVATI v tom chto proishodit, eto estestvenno...
Thanx fot your attention...
Propavshiy

[HMMM]

Propavshiy,ya soglasen s tem , chto tut vse vinovati i chto USA y Talibi ne belie voroni.No chto podelat eto- jizn i nikto ne perfect.Mnogie govoryat, kak ya tut chital, chto vmesto togo chto bi jdat nado bilo USA delat to ili eto.A chto vse USA da USA , nado chto li ey vse eto s odnoy storoni.Da, nu ona suet kuda ni nado svoy nos i poluchaet za eto , a ne sunet vse budut govorit vot USA takaya mol derjava ne pomogaet.To chto hochu skazat trudno bit monopolnim ili borotsya za eto mesto, mnogo problem sozdayutsya.Da uj, mi vot tut beseduem sporim kto tut prav , a kto net.Esli chestno ya bi hotel skazat chto vmesto togo chto bi osujdat chyi-to proshlie oshibki, nujno jit nastoyashim, a ne proshlim.Konechno ne hochu skazat, chto proshloe sleduet zabit.Nujno uje deystvovat, pora uje i tem chto mi sidim i beseduem kto prav , a kto net, vremya idet i kto-to deystvuet.Tak glupo, iz-za dvuh akterov na mirovoy arene, kotorie mogut ubejdat, pogibayut stolko lyudey.No eto bilo vsegda i budet.Ufff, esli bi lyudi pobolshe lyubili bi sebya i osoznovali bi vse, senu svoey jizni, poshli bi oni na voynu?Patrioti glupie, v istorii chto li ostanutsya ih imena?Vse na pokaz, vse na korotkoe imya slavi.Esli bi oni znali eto , ne bilo bi i voyni, no etomu ne bit, nikogda.I vse eti vashi spori naschet kto prav , a kto net, eto vse erunda.Nichego ne zavisit ot vas, kto hochet priznat, chto on ne prav?Vse takie umnie, pryam do gluposti dohodyat , chto bi ne znat chto eto truizm.Nelzya oprovergnut to, chto yavno!Net ved oprovergayut.Nu , prodoljayte v tom je duhe,UDACHI,HMMMMM