MegaZ, why do you let some fundamentalist to use your board

[FIX]

Don't you see that Uzbekistan, USA, and the whole World have this fundamentalist enemies, which are trying to spread their stupid hate. Don't you care about what is going on? Why don't you clean up your board a little?

[FIX]

I know and I respect that you are very liberal guy, but the question is - Should freedom be enjoyed by the ones who are fighting against the freedom itself?

[underloaded_]

Esli ne dat' im prava govorit' zdes', oni uydut v podpol'e i budut govorit' tam, gde alternativnoy im tochki zreniya ne budet. Tak luchshe pust' govoriat zdes',gde mojno pokazat' vsu nesostoyatel'nost ih ideologii. A razumnie ludi razberutsia sami.

Cheers

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Dear Fix-Are you proposing that there should not be an alternative view?? Are you saying people with religious mind set are not supposed to post?? I have not seen anybody calling for Jihaad or destroying the holy "peace" that the West "esteblished" so far And can you pinpoint to particular board member. From what I understood, you are for freedom, if you wanna listen the alternative view that's what an ordinary Muslim says: "I am for Peace, Justice, Liberty and Equality. However, a muslim does not tolerate Peace at the cost of Injustice." Yu started to sound like this guy

[img="http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/terrorHate/hategifs2/handelsman.gif"]

Cheers, :)

[underloaded_]

Come on, Lucky. Don't make it up! You very well understand what he really means: he is not against Muslims, but those fundamentalists and extremists who use Islam in order to spread hatred. What you are doing now is the same kind of stuff. New folks, old tricks.

[cute]

FIX yesli poddayoshsya kakoy nibud tam propagande eto tvoya problema. Eto prosto board a ne perviy kanal uzbekskogo televideniye.
Kajduyu nedelyu kto-to pitayetsya komu-to rot zakrit.
Hehe, naverno noviy nabor, sam vrode takim bil LOL.

[FIX]

Ha-ha! Nu ty skazal :-D Perviy kanal! 1:0 v tvoyu pol'zu!
Chesno govorya ya uzhe i zabyl kak nash perviy kanal vyglyadit. Da i zatykat' chyo-to mnenie ya ne vprave. Prosto kogda ya slyshu pro soplyakov v Uzbekistane, kotorye po svoemu neponyatiyu, i vozmozhno bezotvetsvennosti okruzhayushih, primykayut k fanaticheskim gruppirovkam i poluchayut pochti-chto smertniy prigovor, to ya dumayu, v takie momenty, lyudi dolzhny osoznavat' nekuyu otvetstvennost' po povodu togo kakie boltovni rasprostranyayut.

[cute]

Hmm
primykayut k fanaticheskim gruppirovkam i poluchayut pochti-chto smertniy prigovor
Daa tut ti prav.
No ya ne viju kakoy-to yavnoy propogandi v etom forume, krome Ruslan's, hehe :)

[FIX]

Lucky,
If you want me to pin point I will pinpoint your picture above, O.K.? This is not TRALI-VALI for you, a WAR is going on. Leaders of the two sides clearly said "You are with us or against us" and it is clear. What alternatives you are talking about? US is standing up to defend my country also, while fundamentalists are for war against Uzbekistan. Any ideological hit against the US in the issue - is a hit against Uzbeks too and everything valuable to us.

[FIX]

If you do not understand what is wrong with your picture above, let me tell you. In reality American leaders are not yelling "kill them all", terrorists want to paint the reality like that and you are doing that job for them.

[cute]

FIX
keep in mind that US is "defending" Uzbekistan for obvious reasons. Not because they care, want us to prosper or whatever. If it was Russia instead of US it would be Russia defending us.
Any ideological hit against the US in the issue - is a hit against Uzbeks too and everything valuable to us. is NOT hit against us for sure.
There is line between cooperation and making a war.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

What the heck you talkin about??? from your statement I realized whom I am dealing with. A Zealot (Extremist) but none else. You said Vietnam war was a just war, DUDE is killing 3 million people can be justified?? Is killing 5,000 Afghanis civilians can be justified?? Lemme tell you one thing: I am against and with USA. I am against the US agression. I am with US in the fight against terrorism (in any form.) Do not make of yourself a "Hero." Read Adam Smith's invisible hand theory. A slightly different form of it: A real patriot is not the one who screams that he is a patriot but the one who pursues his own liberty,happiness and justice in order to maximize his happiness.
Cheers, :)

[referee]

FIX (Nov 07, 2001 08:36):
Don't you see that Uzbekistan, USA, and the whole World have this fundamentalist enemies, which are trying to spread their stupid hate. Don't you care about what is going on? Why don't you clean up your board a little?

I think you may have meant terrorists NOT fundamentalists! Because it is normal and democratic to be fundamental in your belief and culture as long as you express yourself peacefully and don't blow or kill people.

I believe that some people start losing the focus and soon will equalise a Muslim = an enemy! There are many Christian, Islamic and Zionist fundamentalists in the world, and to eradicate any of them due to their views/believes would be undemocratic(soft term) or genocidal (hard term)...

You must be fiercly confusing the Global War on TERRORISM with some totalitarian country's fight against FUNDAMENTALISM! i hope that confusion will not spread globally...

[underloaded_]

Ne znayu kto i kak ponimaet "fundamentalism", no s moey tochki zreniya fundamentalist - eto priverjenec teh osnov religii i vzgliadov na nee, kotorie sushestvovali pri ee zarojdenii t.e 15-20 stoletiy nazad v zavisimosti ot konfessii. A kak izvestno, v te vremena bilo priniato nasajdat' svoyu veru i vzgliadi luboy cenoy, chto i seuchas delaetsia, naprimer, v vide ogranicheniy svobod jenshin. Fundamentalizm, takim obrazom, otricaet vse izmeneiya, proishodiashie v mire, i adaptaciyu k nim, chto samo po sebe yavliaetsia antidemokratichnim.

Cheers

[FIX]

What a shame!
I dared to argue with Lucky without reading Adam Smith.
I gues it is not for avarage guy like me to argue with such a "smartie".
O.K. you are right, you are "against the US agression and with US in the fight against terrorism (in any form.)" as you say. Abracadabra, but it's O.K., this is Lucky's.
Let us ask Pentagon to sit home, read Adam Smith and wait when terrorists pop up somewhere in Alabama, because killing of Vietnamese can not be justified! Then the happines will be maximized!
Bravo! :)

[jafridi]

Dear FIX:

I can see the conflict in your self tearing you apart. You are trying to justify your "Loyality" to a Colonial Superpower, whose Real aim is to get hold of the Caspian Basin resources; and in the bargain screw what is left of Muslims in central asia.

The WTC carnage is being recreated in Afghanistan almost every day. The same scenes have been played out in Iraq, Libya, Palestine, Bosnia and Chechnya with boring regularity.

Every Muslim, regardless of his creed, origin or thinking is a Terrorist or a potential terrorist. THIS IS A WAR AGAINST ISLAM AND THE MUSLIMS. THIS IS A DECLARED CRUSADE. So let us not bury our heads in sand.

Now on your squeeming about the use of this Forum for "fundamentalist propaganda". Nobody is gonna buy your limp wet eyed justifications, even with a tinge of percieved impotence.

The WTC carnage was as deplorable as the bombing of our innocent Muslim brethern - I have reasons to believe that this was a home grown insiders work. If OBL or Al-Quaeda was that efficient as to successfully plan, direct , execute such a sophisticated operation - they could have given a run for its money to Uncle sam by now.

[Freestyler@]

"...THIS IS A WAR AGAINST ISLAM AND THE MUSLIMS. THIS IS A DECLARED CRUSADE..."

I don't think so... :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Neither do I. Nobody let's stop this useless argumentation which desnot benefit any of us unfortunately. The fact is Taleban and Al-Qaeda Network shud be removed from Afghanistan.
Cheers, :)

[nobody]

Lucky (Nov 10, 2001 12:23):
....... Nobody let's stop this useless argumentation which desnot benefit any of us unfortunately. .........
Cheers, :)

Dear Bro, did you mean me by saying Nobody? First of all i don't participate in such discussions, where some "democrates" suggest to ban somebody. These crackheads don't have their own ideas in their heads and thats why fear to fall any propaganda, or they think that its "propaganda" if you even speak about Ramadan or Salat. There is no point arguing with them.
Secondly, i didn't get you, what are you doing in this useless discussion?

[javanmard]

I would like to ask you Lucky...what is your solution to the problem. If You were George. W. Bush, and you had just witnessed the terrorist attacks in New York on September the 11th, and your best intelligence sources claim that the money and the ideological support for the attacks originated from Osama Bin Laden and the Al Qaida network........

What would the "right" move be???

Please answer this question to clarify what your position is.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

"Nobody"jon-Ja hapa ko'rinasiz?? Indiyskiy choydan damlab limon bn ichvorsangiz otdek kishnavorasiz.

I did not mean that this discussion was useless, I just wanted to let you and Freestyler know that you guys are going off the topic and it has become more of a Argumentation not a constructive reasoning to solve the problem and discuss the issue according to the rules of the board. BTW, Happy ramadhan!!!!

Javanmard-if I were given choice I would do the following:

a) Get all my intellignece in one room and discuss the whole issue with them. Why did that happen? And why intelligence did really suck this time again in front of bunch of "terrorists"?

b) If I really had strong evidence against Ben Laden and his network. I would call all the UN active members (Russia, China especially) and strategic partners i.e. the members of Gulf countires and finally the people who represent Taleban movement. I would put in front of Taleban the evidences and urge Muslim countries to press on Taleban to stop beating down other ethnic and religious minorities, at the same time I wold demand from Iran, Russia and other counries to stop interfering with Afghanistan's internal affairs . If Taleban insisted on giving him to some 3rd Muslim country, I would not mind. The point is I would persuade the whole Muslim world that they were indeed behind the "Events" and could not be justified in any ways.

c) If all this did not work at all, I would send UN troops along with NATO troops not the B-smth Bobmers. I would not bomb the cities. Responding to Terror with another Terror is not the right way to win the "terror." Once you are Terrorized, it means "terror" has won you over and you already lost the battle. I would stay calm and urge the same to my people, I would not create Anthrax fairy tale. Many people do not doubt that it is a propoganda to have the US citizen supportive of the new "War" to get the slowing down economy heck out of Recession.

d) Education, education and again Education. Education of so called "Taleban" about the WEST and Education of the WEST about East (Arab, Persian and Moslem Mind.) I would not mind having talks with them. Another thing, if the US had given the financial support to Taleban that it is giving now to its "new allies" may be it would not be necessary to launch such a big campaign.

e) US campaign drove heck a lot young Muslims crazy and further to Extremism. Particularly Muslim world is not really persuaded and can apprehend the real danger those Militant Groups are posing. Yes, the Muslim Governments are supporting the US, but what about the Muslim people, particularly young people?? I saw young ladies in Hijaab screaming in the streets in Islamabad. I felt so much shame. The whole world must be laughing at them, these so called muslim world does not know its religion better than the "non-religious West." I read US orientalists criticizing the Muslim response to the events to be un-Islaamic.

f) I would demand from the US gov-t to Spread Democracy and stand with firm commitment to its IDEALS and BELIEFS (Liberty, Equality and Justice) at any cost. Most people are already outraged and do not believe any more that the US is a "freedom-land."

Cheers, :)

[javanmard]

Dear Lucky,

Your reactions would be fine at a time of peace, BUT, you have forgotten to include the almost 200 million Americans who were outraged about the September 11 bombings. Why should the American administration wait 10 months before getting a UN resolution out? Why should the Americans urge Iran and Russia not to interfere in Afghan affairs but let the 6000 Arabs and over 20000 Pakistanis stay there. Is that fair to you??

Who cares about Pakistanis in the streets of Islamabad screaming and yelling? They were not hit by three passenger aircraft! Also, another thing for you to remember and remember well, Ahmed Shah Massoud, was not assasinated by Afghans, he was assasanted by two Arabs. If you the Americans kill Bin Laden you say there are interfering in other people's affairs. But if two ARABS kill an Afghan you think its Ok.

And what proof do you have the Americans have created the Anthrax scare?? What proof is there. You are the only person I have ever heard who said such a thing. Please tell me where you get your information from??

Your ideas are naive and biased. You really believe that just because a bunch of savage muslims are screaming and yelling everybody must be afraid. BEWARE WE MUSLIMS ARE BAD ASS! WE WILL MAKE JIHAD! YOU MUST BE SCARED!

Well not anymore...........the northern alliance are marching on Kabul.........and they are made up of Persians and Uzbeks. Who's side are you on Lucky??

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Whatever I said applies directly to the War time as well as "Peace" time. The whole world was outraged by the events not just Americans. Why shud American administration sacrifice Afghani civilian lives in oreder to save its Soldiers' lives?? It is because of Russia(Former Soviet) and the USA we have Taleban and those extremists. Pashtuns, Tajiks, Kahzaras, and Uzbeks have nothing to do with "terrorists." I never said it is ok to kill anybody without Justification and fair trial. Afghanistan's internal problems should be solved by Afghanis not us. Ahmad Shah Massoud' assasiniation can't be justified and you cant expect anything else, they were fighting each other, definietly one of them would kill the other, at any rates I would not approve of any killings (personally.) Not all Arabs are Terrorists and not all Terrorists are Muslims. I did not say that I have any proof that US is behind this big "anthrax" show, I just suspect that the US secret service is behind this, just a speculation.


Javanmard-Your ideas are naive and biased. You really believe that just because a bunch of savage muslims are screaming and yelling everybody must be afraid. BEWARE WE MUSLIMS ARE BAD ASS! WE WILL MAKE JIHAD! YOU MUST BE SCARED

Now you becomin' a real headache, at least a pain at the back. I did not say everybody should be afraid of "savage muslims" what I said was this type of policy breeds more Terror and more killing, it will not prevent. These people were not taking them ("savage muslims") seriously they got 5,000 dead in NYC alone, do you want stuff like that to repeat again? US might kill Ben Laden, but many young Ben Ladens are growing up over the whole world. To prevent this we gotta educate people, the West about Islaam, and Muslims about the West and as well as their own religion.

Javanmard-Definietly I am not on your side ;), I mean I am on neither side. I do not take criminals' side, for me personally all of 'em are "terrorists" including the US of America.

Jihaad is not equal with Terror or agression. In Quran Allah(swt) says:

"O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you. And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into the Fire, and that is easy for Allah. (Quran 4-29:30)"



And fight in the path of God with those who are fighting with you and do not transgress, God loves not those who transgress. (2:190)

Islaam does not call to spread Islaamic religion by SWORD.
"There is no compulsion in religion, for the truth has been made manifest from the false" (2:255)

The following verse should very clear:
"And call to the way of your Lord (Rabb) with the judgment and beautiful admonitions, and dispute with them with that which is beautiful..." (16:125)

Invite people to the path of your Rabba. With what? With force of sword? No. With beautiful admonitions and advice.

"And dispute with them with that which is beautiful... " (16:125)

With those who dispute with us, we must also dispute, beautifully. This verse has introduced clearly the way for Islam to be embraced.

"The truth is from your Rabba, so whoever has the will so he must reject..." (18:29)
"And if your Rabb willed all the earth would have believed, in total, will you then compel them to be believers." (10:99) "O Prophet! it is as if you intend to kill yourself because they have not believed as if you want to destroy yourself. Do not be so full of grief for their sakes. We, with Our Power of Creation and Might, if we wanted to force the people to belief we could easily have done so. If we willed it, we could send down the sky a sign to overshadow their neck, for them to be submissive"(26:4) From this verse one can easily understand that there is no Fighting in Islaam to convert or subdue people to Islaam. Here God says that if He wanted to send down from the sky a sign, an affliction, and tell the people that they must either become true believers or be destroyed by that affliction, all the people under compulsion would become believers, but He does not do so because He wants the people to choose for themselves.

"Peace is better..." (4: 128 )

Truly God defends those who have faith. Truly God loves not the treacherous rejecter (kafir). Permission (for warfare) is given to those who are attacked and definitely wronged. And truly God is capable of helping without justice, for no reason except their saying: "Our Nourisher is God" and if God did not prevent people, some with some (others) then truly cloisters, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the Name of God is oft brought to mind, would have been destroyed. And God will help whoever helps Him - for truly, God is Powerful, Prevailing - those who, if we settle them in the earth, establish prayer, pay the zakat and command to what is recognized and prohibit what is rejected. And with God is the result of all affairs.» (22:38-41)

Surah Al-Tauba verse 36: "And whosoever does any agression against you retaliate against them in the same manner but know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves."

Read and educate yourself about Islaam even if you do not consider yourself a Muslim, just stop making BS. And Please follow the rules of the BOARD no cussing is permitted in this board.
Cheers, :)

[javanmard]

First Lucky, learn how to speak to people. You are not hanging out with your "brothers" anymore.

Also, what are you trying to say...that not all muslims are terrorists. We already know that. What is the whole point of your long posts??? What are you trying to say? That everybody is doing bad things. Congradulations we already knew that......

Another thing, stop posting excerpts from the Quran on this board. If you had any respect for the Quran you would'nt do that........

What kind of muslim are you anyway??? You don't know anything about the spirit of religion or Islam. Its like some kind of hobby to you.

[Dervish]

Javanmard,
What do you think about America and Britain helping create and supporting Israel statehood from the very beginning? After all these two thousand years Jews were granted statehood in the hostile environment, everybody knew that Jews were not some kind of oppressed and poor nation even at that time. Well, they were little bit of oppressed in Europe, BUT NOT poor, except for the Holocaust time, they had no right for statehood there and they had to move to Middle East to their original biblical homeland. But that piece of land was already occupied by Arabs. Could you, for example, tolerate or put up with someone arriving to your soil after 2000 yeras of oblivion and claim according to the Bible the land of chosen people, on which you already live and call you terrorist at the same time? I wonder what your reaction would be? May be other people should have the right to claim other people's lands according to other religion's sacred books? How come it's only Bible and Bible, what about other sacred literature where I'm sure lots of information of some other mythical and legendary states. Hey! I like that - let's reveive them as well. After all how come only Jews get the soil from books? Don't you think it's little bit off line with justice?

[Freestyler@]

<Lucky>, so you still believe that "...Afghanistan's internal problems should be solved by Afghanis not us..." ?!?!?
I think they would end up killing each other and the rest of the world wouldn't bother.
BUT, the problem is that Afghanistan problem has spilled over the rest of the world. No more is it their internal business (thanks to Bin Laden and his al-Qaeda, as well as drug trafficking, btw). And I think everyobody should understand that!
The taliban killed and tortured women, the west did not interfere. They banned everything western (music, video, television, even haircuts :) ) - the west did not interfere. They vandalised the unique statues of Buddha - the west decided to leave that as it is.
And then, there is always a limit to patience!..

Bernard Lewis had predicted that if the Middle Eastern states failed to establish good governments and economy (ie, "fail to use the window of opportunity" to use his words), eventually they would be again put at stake among the world superpowers. Not that this revival of the Great Game would be something that West wants, but it would be rather a natural and inevtible response to the chaos. Unfortunately, this Lewis's bad scenario came true. (However, I admire how true he was about his predictions)

"...To prevent this we gotta educate people, the West about Islaam, and Muslims about the West and as well as their own religion..."
Hehe, the problem is that the very education that you want to give them is regarded as the greatest threat to their fundamentalistic values. How are you going to educate those who (myagko govorya) simply don't wanna do that?!?!

An interview was taken from a local from Mazari Sharif. The man said that everyone was happy after the taleban retreated. The man said that men trimmed their beards, and even schools opened (for girls as well!). BTW, the schools for girls are now functioning only on the territories held by the Northern Allience.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Well, here is what I think:

Freesyler-No more is it their internal business (thanks to Bin Laden and his al-Qaeda, as well as drug trafficking, btw). And I think everyobody should understand that!

Afghanistan does not have any internal affair since November of 1979. Russia (Former Soviyet) and the USA were poking their noses in this country for a long time.

Freestyler-The taliban killed and tortured women, the west did not interfere.

If my memory does not fail Taleban DID NOT EXIST before 1996. What was the condition in Afghanistan before 1996? Peace? Hell no. Actually what did the Soviets leave after themselves? 1.7 million deads,civilians alone, a lot maimed and orphans. Nothing was left, everything destroyed, except Soviet Style downtown Kabul, and couple of military bases which served Soviet purpose. We raped their women, tortured their yongsters, killed them with chemical weapons. I have a friend from Afghanistan, here in the States. He is only 20, looks 30. He looks like weeping all the time, but he does not, his eye function is destroyed by chemical weapons. Another friend of mine told me that in front of him, Soviet Soldiers threw his 15 year old nephew under T-80.
I talked with one Afghani veteran back home, he told me how his Russian friend was butchered by Afghani girl when he tried to rape her, and how the Afghani veteran shot her with machine gun until he emptied his Bullet ware twice (ie 64 bullets, I guess) If I keep on counting this is a long story. Taleban and whatever Terrorists you call are the fruits of Cold War between the West and Soviet Empire. Now even the Cold War is over they are suffering the consequences of what they themselves created. Their puppets are not any more controllable.

Freestyler-They banned everything western (music, video, television, even haircuts)

Bull crap!!! They banished Western nude movies, not Islamic movies. They had Television Station. They let people to get hair cut, but not the styles that imitated the "gay" Western style.

Freestyler-the west did not interfere.

Another Bull crap. The West did interfere when they had interest, Russians kept on supporting their old Soviet Commy allies, General Dostum. It was him who was against for United Afghanistan, when Afghanistan had a general council leadership until Rabbani defaulted on it, i.e the leaders had agreement which said leaders from each ethnicity would serve for 6 months (If I am not msitaken) term and hand it over to the next one, the one before Rabbani fulfilled his promise, but Rabbani did not, 'cause Iran was whispering to create A Great Persian State. Pakistan kept its ties in Afghanistan that was established through CIA office. Zbigniw Brezizinskiy has a very famous picture which he posed with "terrorists", how ironic it is.


Freestyler-Not that this revival of the Great Game would be something that West wants, but it would be rather a natural and inevtible response to the chaos. Unfortunately, this Lewis's bad scenario came true. (However, I admire how true he was about his predictions)

Another Bull crap!! Afghans were never let alone to choose their government, even the very Taleban at some point got some back up from the US "special" services, of course Pakistan was their Master.


Freestyler-How are you going to educate those who (myagko govorya) simply don't wanna do that?!?!

They got enough educated people all over the world, you do not need to go and educate them, plus the West itself needs Education as I mentioned earlier. It seems the West doesn't wanna learn from the lessons and keeps on pushing its own "Manifest destiny." (Manifest Destiny -- a phrase used by leaders and politicians in the 1840s to explain continental expansion by the United States -- revitalized a sense of "mission" or national destiny for many Americans.We shall be as a City upon a Hill, the eyes of all people are upon us...," the Puritan John Winthrop wrote. The Puritans who disembarked in Massachusetts in 1620 believed they were establishing the New Israel. Indeed, the whole colonial enterprise was believed to have been guided by God. "God hath opened this passage unto us," Alexander Whitaker preached from Virginia in 1613, "and led us by the hand unto this work."

Promised Land imagery figured prominently in shaping English colonial thought. The pilgrims identified themselves with the ancient Hebrews. They viewed the New World as the New Canaan. They were God's chosen people headed for the Promised Land. Other colonists believed they, too, had been divinely called. The settlers in Virginia were, John Rolf said, "a peculiar people, marked and chosen by the finger of God.")


Freestyler-An interview was taken from a local from Mazari Sharif. The man said that everyone was happy after the taleban retreated. The man said that men trimmed their beards, and even schools opened (for girls as well!). BTW, the schools for girls are now functioning only on the territories held by the Northern Allience.

Yes, interview was taken. And the Human rights organizatin reported how the drunk Alliance soldiers raped women, beaten women in hijaab and forced people to shave and take off their hijaabs. They did report how Dosum made prostitution and alcohol legal the day he took over Mazari Sharif. Amnesty intenrational reported the similar story, how Pashtun ethnicity is being beaten, looted and discrimianted by Uzbeks,Tajiks and all others. Schools for girls did exist during Taleban rule, but not co-ed. Do you have some more fairy Tales left after "carpet bombing" taleban with all yor lies???
http://www.lenta.ru/ww3/2001/11/13/slaughter/


Cheers, :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

In Kabul itself several residents have told CNN they are unhappy at the prospect of the Northern Alliance taking control of the city.
Some were reported to be leaving fearing a takeover of the city.
Afghans experienced numerous hardships while the Northern Alliance governed Afghanistan from 1992 to 1996, frequently battling each other in factional squabbles. Source CNN http://europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/11/12/ret.kabul.alliance/index.html
Cheers, :)

[underloaded_]

Nikto i ne govorit , chto Severniy al'yans eto oplot demokratii. Po krayney mere oni ne ugrojayut svoim sosediam, ne ugoniayut samoleti i ne prizivayut k jihadu protiv drugih.
A chto kasaetsia stradaniy prostih ludey pod gnetom svoih praviteley iz severnogo al'yansa, vo-pervih eto ih praviteli, kak govoritsia kajdiy narod poluchaet togo pravitelia, kotorogo zaslujivaet. Vo-votrih pri lubo, pravitel'stve budut nedovol'nie. Tak chto nalichie teh, kto pokidaet Kabul niskol'ko ne pugaet civillizovanniy mir. Pri Talibah, ya dumayu, nedovol'nih bilo mnogo bol'she.

Da i voobshe, pora primirit'sia chto tvoi brat'ya po razumu :) , poluchili pinok pod zad. A to chto ti zdes' miamlish' eto popitka opravdatsia i uspokoit' sebia. Deskat' bili takie Talibi, oni zabotilis' o prostih ludiah. Oni skoro vernutsia. Vse znayut kak oni zabotiatsia.
Nado bi radovatsia, chto po krayney mere ugroza ot granic Uzbekistana otodvinuta.

Cheers.

[Chijik@]

Bull crap, bull crap... Kak zayezjaya plastinka, <Lucky>!
Whatever, <Lucky>. From now on I don't even care what you write here.
At one post you say that "it is a fact the taleban should be destroyed..."
just to defend them in another...
I always knew you were a hypocrit.

I don't even want to argue with you anymore on the topic. I don't need any convincing, what's happenning is already proving me right.

You can see with your own eyes now how people began to trim their beards, women with happy and OPEN! faces, the dancing youth (what a surprise, you can actually hear the music)?! You can imagine now how repressed they must have been under the taleban.

It must be a surprise for you <Lucky>, mustn't it, that people are so happy to get rid of the "humane" taleban, the very "liberators" of them, who banned only pornography but not TV, who did not prohibit girls to go to school, but simply said to study at home, who told the women to close themselves from head to toe only for the good of the women themselves and so on... ?! :D

Apparantly, things changed very dramatically while you were typiong your long reply to my arguements. So now you have a chance to check for yourself. ;)
...

[Chijik@]

<Lucky>, if you are still interested I advise that you should read that book by Bernard Lewis I posted last year here. I am re-reading it now, and most of his predictions are coming out to be prophetical, as it seems to me.
He is indeed THE expert in his field.

[Tank]

pomenshi post delaite a to chitat zaebki
peace out

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Well Freestyler, I think if there are only two liberals in this board, without doubt one is you and the other is me,if I do not exaggerate it (I know that there are some other liberals in this board.) And I can assure I do enjoy discussing with you 'cause I learned a lot from you may be you did not learn anything from me, that was not a compliment BTW but a confession and a statement.

Freestyler-I always knew you were a hypocrit.

This type of harsh statments are not necessary, besides please discuss the issue not the board participants.

Freestyler-I don't even want to argue with you anymore on the topic. I don't need any convincing, what's happenning is already proving me right.

The reason I do participate in this forum discussion is not to convince people, 'cause I know there is nothing harder than convincing people especially when they take totally opposite pole. I do wanna share my thoughts with you, and share yours with me. I just wanna let you know that there are always alternative opinions, and at the same situation I wanna know the alternative ideas, this way the democratic free society evolves and devleops otherwise it is bound to failure, as this system collapsed so many times like other civilizations and systems when there was a lack of competition and especially freedom of speech.


Freestyler-You can see with your own eyes now how people began to trim their beards, women with happy and OPEN! faces, the dancing youth (what a surprise, you can actually hear the music)?! You can imagine now how repressed they must have been under the taleban.

I am happy if people are happy, that's what many of us want and you? And I am for covering from head to toe if that makes them happy. I do not like when some force others to shave or to grow, to cover or uncover. This is what lacked under Taleban regime so does our own society, unfortunately. If you wanna criticize there are many repressive regimes in the world even worst than Taleban's, I can guarantee you. The reason you picking on them is obviously becuase the values that Taleban promoted are indeed Islaamic values: Covering, Growing beard, forbiddance of Music except some. Personally I do not observe any of them, but I really respect the rights of people who wanna observe them, plus I have no right to call those people uncivilized, the reason is it is a matter of Preference, not civility, prove me if I am wrong.

I choose lesser of the two evils when I am forced to choose from. That's why I preferred taleban over alliances in posts, 'cause there was no other competing alternative.

It is true that couple of days ago I mentioned that "taleban should be removed." And I am still on that opinion, the harm they gonna bring to their society outweighs the benefit they might bring to society and themselves as well. I hold this opinion since they became an open enemy to us not a long before September events. Even if the September events had not occurred we, still, would have been forced to face them either on the battlefield or in some other type of clash, that was quite obvious after J.Namagani became Commander n' chief of a Northern Taleban Special Forces Platoon (TSFP.) TSFP was composed of, mainly, people of Central Asian origin and they were ready to carry out agressive moves towards Uzbekistan and its Constitutional State system at any moment, they were quite unpredictable. That's why Uzbek government re-estableshed its ties with Pakistan government last year, duiring the summer, at couple of closed meetings between foreign ministers of both countries.

The reason I "defended" Taleban in my previous post is becuase of Islaam's instruction not to lie about others even if they are enemies. Even if they are our enemies we should not try to hide what they have in terms of goodness, and we should not lie about in terms of what they really did not, that simple.

Thanks a lot for your advice, I really had enough of Bernard Lewis over the Summer and last Spring, he is not a news to me. He is an orientlist and an expert indeed.I'll be looking forward to reading your next posts. Good Luck.
A friend not an opponent!!!
Cheers, :)

[nobody]

Lucky (Nov 11, 2001 10:07):
"Nobody"jon-Ja hapa ko'rinasiz?? Indiyskiy choydan damlab limon bn ichvorsangiz otdek kishnavorasiz.

I did not mean that this discussion was useless, I just wanted to let you and Freestyler know that you guys are going off the topic and it has become more of a Argumentation not a constructive reasoning to solve the problem and discuss the issue according to the rules of the board. BTW, Happy ramadhan!!!!
........
Cheers, :)

Eeeeeee, birodar nimagayam hursand bolar edim....
Agar gap limonli choyda bolsa man hech kachon hapa bolmas edim ;)

Happy Ramadan you too Bro.

[underloaded_]

Lucky (Nov 14, 2001 00:13):

The reason you picking on them is obviously becuase the values that Taleban promoted are indeed Islaamic values: Covering, Growing beard, forbiddance of Music except some.
I choose lesser of the two evils when I am forced to choose from. That's why I preferred taleban over alliances in posts, 'cause there was no other competing alternative.

It is true that couple of days ago I mentioned that "taleban should be removed." And I am still on that opinion, the harm they gonna bring to their society outweighs the benefit they might bring to society and themselves as well. I hold this opinion since they became an open enemy to us not a long before September events. Even if the September events had not occurred we, still, would have been forced to face them either on the battlefield or in some other type of clash, that was quite obvious after J.Namagani became Commander n' chief of a Northern Taleban Special Forces Platoon (TSFP.) TSFP was composed of, mainly, people of Central Asian origin and they were ready to carry out agressive moves towards Uzbekistan and its Constitutional State system at any moment, they were quite unpredictable. That's why Uzbek government re-estableshed its ties with Pakistan government last year, duiring the summer, at couple of closed meetings between foreign ministers of both countries.

The reason I "defended" Taleban in my previous post is becuase of Islaam's instruction not to lie about others even if they are enemies. Even if they are our enemies we should not try to hide what they have in terms of goodness, and we should not lie about in terms of what they really did not, that simple.


Cheers, :)


Stop bullshiting here, Lucky. I searched your posts and found lovely quotes from the posts you have made not so long time ago. Hypocrits like you can cause really big troubles.



Lucky (Mar 25, 2001 03:45):
Keep in mind, in the Whole former Soviet Uzbekistan not Turkmenistan is the best ally with Taleban. I heard from Pr.Karimov's own mouth, " Biz Toliblarga Omad tilaymiz wa qollaymiz."

last updated at Mar 25, 2001 03:45 (1 times)
What you said here was 95% BS, sorry for my language.
Uzbekistan supports Taleban, because Taleban kicked IMU's ASS when your MAT Rossiya kept on helping IMU. Where the heck IMU crosses the border with any notice of Russian Soldiers, LOL? Are you kiddin? It is not secret that IMU gets its support from Russia, and Ahmad Shah Ma'sud.And Who supports Ma'sud, Mat Rossiya not Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan borders with Afghanistan only in Termiz, my city, which borders with Taleban. If the Taleban were really on hurting Uzbekistan that would happen in 1998. ... Why the heck you blaming Taleban then?
Cheers, :)

[underloaded_]

Escpecially, I like your words :) :

"...Taleban promoted indeed Islaamic values: Covering, Growing beard, forbiddance of Music except some."

If these are values you and your brothers striving for, they are doomed like talibans are.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Wow, from where so much hatred??? Take your breath back. Napasing na muncha sovuq bomasaydi :) My values should not bother you, time shows who is doomed, let's count. Qipqizil extremist Fashist ekansanu ah? Shu mi demokratiya? Orgildim Sandaqa demokratlardan, Demokratiyaning D harpiniyam bilmiysanlar, eski Kommunistsanlarda, noming ozgarsa ham ozligin ozgarmagan. No offence intended. Hail Democracy (Uzbeki Way)
Cheers, :)

[underloaded_]

Ishi svoyu demokratiyu sredi svoih Talibov, dorogoy, kotorih ti prodoljaesh' zashishat'. Da ya extremist, esli ponimat' eto slovo kak krayniya neterpimost' k ludishkam, kotorie kontroliruyut dlinu borod okrujayushih ne gnushayas' nikakimi sredstvami,i zabivayut chto sushestvuyut drugie cennosti v etom mire.

Ne nravitsia dlina nashih borod, poezjay k svoim Talibam, a nas ostav' v pokoe :)

[nobody]

Lucky (Nov 14, 2001 09:48):
Wow, from where so much hatred??? Take your breath back. Napasing na muncha sovuq bomasaydi :) My values should not bother you, time shows who is doomed, let's count. Qipqizil extremist Fashist ekansanu ah? Shu mi demokratiya? Orgildim Sandaqa demokratlardan, Demokratiyaning D harpiniyam bilmiysanlar, eski Kommunistsanlarda, noming ozgarsa ham ozligin ozgarmagan. No offence intended. Hail Democracy (Uzbeki Way)
Cheers, :)

C'mon Bro, Ramadan is coming :) Don't bother with what they say. You can't change them, only Allah swt can.
Have a good Ramadan Bro.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Nobodyjon-Rahmat, Rahmat,Ozlariniyam qutliymiz.

underloaded-nima ularni soqqolli ko'tinga kiryaptimi :D :D :-D :D :D :-D :D

Da ya extremist, esli ponimat' eto slovo kak krayniya neterpimost' k ludishkam, kotorie kontroliruyut dlinu borod okrujayushih ne gnushayas' nikakimi sredstvami,i zabivayut chto sushestvuyut drugie cennosti v etom mire.

To'gri etasan, oshani uchun soqoltoylarni soqqoliga osilmagin, sandan birov nega soqqolin yoq deb soroq qivottimi :D :D :-D :D :D :-D :D ? To'g'ri soqqol qoyishshi majburlash Ahmoqlik, Toliblarning mana shunisi ham really stupid, manga okshgan "Kosalar" nima echkini soqqolini yopishtradimi :D :D :-D :D :D :-D :D ? A tak USA da soqqollilar juda kop ekan, ayniqsa anu harley davidsonny minib yuradigonlar boru, manimcha ular amerikaning "vovchik"lari bosa kerek. Metroda bir Rassomni mazgisini qoqvotganda milisalar bn tortishib qoluvdim 99' yilda. Nima emish soqol qoyish noqonuniy emish? Bechora rassom manga ming marta rahmat etib, "Soqollini umuman olmaslikka qasamyod ichib ketuvdi" :D :D :-D :D :D :-D :D
Cheers, :)

[underloaded_]

Osilganim yoq'. O'zingni gaping emasmidi:

"...Taleban promoted indeed Islaamic values: Covering, Growing beard, forbiddance of Music except some."

Again, If this is all you see in Islam after reading Qo'ran, nobody can help you.
Looser, javob beromasdan, endi qo't kovlashga o'tdingmi. Bir kun shuni o'ylab bu gapni topibsan-de? Kovlaver birovnlarni ko'tinni. Hech bo'lmasa shunda usta bo'larsan.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Woy sotakey.. :D :D :D :D

Man etvoman, "Soqol qoyadimi qoymiydimi sani ishing nima???"

Kot kovlash deb, birovni izidan eshittirmasdan boshqalarga yashirib etish hisboblanadi, Punk!! Man san Tasqarani betinga etvomanu, Jalu.

Musulmonchlikda soqol qoyish, yopinib yurish rekommendatsiya qilinadi Taliban buni oylab topgani yuq. Keginam men etdim, "Shaxsan ozim soqol qoymiyman, khokhlamiymanam, unchalik osmiydi ham :D :D :D :D ." Girl friendim ham yopinmiydi, oddiy Toshkanlik qiz, ammo birow soqol qoyaman, yopinaman disa bu manga kasatsya qimiydi, qarshiligim ham yoq, uyalmasa Yalangoch bop yursin skverda, I aint give a damn.

Sanga Okhshgan Lamerlar Musulmonchilik disa Soqol bn yopinishshi tushunasan. Mana Westda sochchi kokka boyab, soqqolli olib, beti ochiq qizlar bn gulyat qilib musulmon bop yurimizzayu, bolarkanu, Lamer. You R a real Loser, I am a damn "Lucky" :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Cheers, :)

[underloaded_]

Betimga degin... Internetda otir'volib gapirgan gapin bu.
Bir kun qo'rarman, betimga nima qapirarkansan...

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Sani oldingda, sandan yashirmasdan dimoqchiydim...Chichqon bosang ozim bn nima diyishshi, Ayuq bosan' a tak kachatsya qib yurimman, boks boyicha birinchi razryad, milliy kurashdanam yomonmas, bir gap bular nima diding.. kozzyollik qimasan boldi kelishib oluvuramiz
Cheers, :)

[underloaded_]

Bir kinoda, bittasi: "U mneia 1-i razriad po boksu" deganida.

"A umenia montirovka pod siden'em" deb javob bergan edi ikkinchisi.

[underloaded_]

Ha etgancha esdan chiqibdi, ohiri montirovka ham kerak bo'lmadi, 1-i razriad boksdam emas , shashkadan ekan.

[nobody]

C'mon Bro, stop it. Its Ramadan now :) Beheave Bro, for yourself not for others. Dont give a **** what they say. You gave me good advice, so you also keep on it.

Peace Bro.