Why to Quran if you dont understand it?

[Qizil-Gul]

Why do we read Quran, even if we can't understand a single Arabic
word????

This is a beautiful story.

An old man lived on a farm in the mountains of eastern Kentucky with
his

young grandson. Each morning Grandpa was up early sitting at the
kitchen

table reading his Qur'an. His grandson wanted to be just like him and

tried to imitate him in every way he could.

One day the grandson asked, 'Grandpa! I try to read the Qur'an just
like

you but I don't understand it, and what I do understand I forget as
soon as

I close the book. What good does reading the Qur'an do?'

The Grandfather quietly turned from putting coal in the stove and

replied,'Take this coal basket down to the river and bring me back a
basket of

water.'

The boy did as he was told, but all the water leaked out before he got

back to the house. The grandfather laughed and said, 'you'll have to
move a

little faster next time,' and sent him back to the river with the
basket

to try again. This time the boy ran faster, but again the basket was
empty

before he returned home. Out of breath, he told his grandfather that it

was impossible to carry water in a basket, and he went to get a bucket

instead.

The old man said, 'I don't want a bucket of water; I want a basket of

water.You're just not trying hard enough,' and he went out the door to
watch

the boy try again.

At this point, the boy knew it was impossible, but he wanted to show
his

grandfather that even if he ran as fast as he could, the water would

leak out before he got back to the house. The boy again dipped the
basket

into river and ran hard, but when he reached his grandfather the basket
was

again empty. Out of breath, he said, 'See Grandpa, it's useless!'

'So you think it is useless?' The old man said, 'Look at the basket.'

The boy looked at the basket and for the first time realized that the

basket was different. It had been transformed from a dirty old coal
basket and

was now clean, inside and out.

'Son, that's what happens when you read the Qur'an. You might not

understand or remember everything, but when you read it, you will be
changed,

inside and out. That is the work of Allah in our lives.'

If you feel this stroyl is worth reading, please forward to your
contacts/friends. Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahoAlieheWasalam) says: 'The
one who guides to good will be rewarded equally'

[lyalyapo]

:) Yeah 1-2 kun oldin emailga kelgandi, qo'ymoqchiydim ne uspela :)

[Karayılan]

Why do we read Quran, even if we can't understand a single Arabic
word????Why do we read Quran that we can completely understand what Tanri says when we read it in our language?

Which one is logical? understanding or just reading without understanding?

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Why do we read Quran that we can completely understand what Tanri says when we read it in our language?

Which one is logical? understanding or just reading without understanding?

First of all dear Turansoyu, Muslims do not worship Tanri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangri_%28god%29. Tanri is a sky or heaven God, a very akin to Chinese Shangdi, or Heaven Worship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_worship

Secondly, not all Turkic people are brainwashed Nazi Panturkists!

Thirdly, I do understand Arabic to some degree, and I am not totally ignorant of what I am reading or reciting. Learning Arabic slowly, but it is definietly helping to increase my scope of understanding the words of Allah azza wa Jal!

Fourthly, Quran was revealed in Arabic, cannot be translated, cannot be imitated

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an in order that you may understand. (Yusuf 12:2)

وَكَذَلِكَ أَنزَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا وَصَرَّفْنَا فِيهِ مِنَ الْوَعِيدِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَّقُونَ أَوْ يُحْدِثُ لَهُمْ ذِكْرًا

And thus We have sent it down as a Qur'an in Arabic, and have explained therein in detail the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause them to have a lesson from it (or to have the honour for believing and acting on its teachings). (Ta-Ha 20:113)

وَمِن قَبْلِهِ كِتَابُ مُوسَى إِمَامًا وَرَحْمَةً وَهَذَا كِتَابٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّسَانًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّيُنذِرَ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا وَبُشْرَى لِلْمُحْسِنِينَ

And before this was the Scripture of Musa (Moses) as a guide and a mercy. And this is a confirming Book (the Qur'an) in the Arabic language, to warn those who do wrong, and as glad tidings to the Muhsinun (good-doers - see V.2:112). (Al-Ahqaf 46:12)

قُل لَّئِنِ اجْتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالْجِنُّ عَلَى أَن يَأْتُواْ بِمِثْلِ هَـذَا الْقُرْآنِ لاَ يَأْتُونَ بِمِثْلِهِ وَلَوْ كَانَ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ ظَهِيرًا

Fifthly, if you were gather together all those Nazis amongst the Turks and other than them, and tried to produce something similar in our Turkic language, you will not be successful, even if you claim it to be translation of the word of Allah.

Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." (Al-Isra 17:88)

وَإِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَى عَبْدِنَا فَأْتُواْ بِسُورَةٍ مِّن مِّثْلِهِ وَادْعُواْ شُهَدَاءكُم مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. (Al-Baqarah 2:23)

فَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلُواْ وَلَن تَفْعَلُواْ فَاتَّقُواْ النَّارَ الَّتِي وَقُودُهَا النَّاسُ وَالْحِجَارَةُ أُعِدَّتْ لِلْكَافِرِينَ

But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers. (Al-Baqarah 2:24)


Finally, you could lash me out for being Pan-Arab, Islaamist, or Anti-Turkic, I do not give a rat's a$$ about it, because I am Turkic, cannot be a anti-Turkic. I am sick of those who worship a deviant called Mustafa Kemal. I know you are gonna find it very hard to digest what I said, insha'Allah,...because Nazis...cannot comprehend my statements unless they recant their position of Nazism, and repent to Allah, and stop worshipping an idol called Turkism/Tenrism, and following its messenger, Mustafa Kemal, Enemy of Turks.

[Tabriz_Han]

Akhee-Abdullah
Secondly, not all Turkic people are brainwashed Nazi Panturkists!


1. There is nothin "Nazi" about supporting a union of Turkic states

2. Nazism is anti-Turk in ideology, read what an "Untremench" is, its ideologically impossible for a Turk to support Nazism, unless they renounce being a Turk or are severly ignorant.

3. Tanri, is what many Turkic muslims call God, God Tanri Huda Allah, its a name, Allah is not a "name" by identifying Allah as a "name" this is idolatory in my opinion. Its the belief that is important, if people say "God" because theyre English speakers, "Tanri" as Turkic or Huda as Iranic speakers it's up to them.
Nobody lectures Iranic speakers who use, "Huda/Xuda" or calls them Nazi's for using this term.

4. If you cannot understand the Holy Qur'an, memorising Surahs and Ayats doesn't mean anything, they are just words if you don't know the meaning.

5. There is nothing wrong or theologically against learning Islam in your native language, Islam is meant to be understood,its teachings are beautiful.

Stop mixing "dogmatic" Near Eastern ideas with our wonderfull religion, Yusuf Qardawi has commented on this. We are ignoring the essence of Islamic principles and too caught up in dogma. Wearing the hat, growing a beard, wearing a jiljab, giving the "image" does not make somebody a great muslim, its superficial and shows the materialistic nature and lack of spirituality in the modern world.

'O people, Remember that your Lord is One. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab
(Excerpt from the Prophet’s Last Sermon as in Baihiqi)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

1. There is nothin "Nazi" about supporting a union of Turkic states

2. Nazism is anti-Turk in ideology, read what an "Untremench" is, its ideologically impossible for a Turk to support Nazism, unless they renounce being a Turk or are severly ignorant.

3. Tanri, is what many Turkic muslims call God, God Tanri Huda Allah, its a name, Allah is not a "name" by identifying Allah as a "name" this is idolatory in my opinion. Its the belief that is important, if people say "God" because theyre English speakers, "Tanri" as Turkic or Huda as Iranic speakers it's up to them.
Nobody lectures Iranic speakers who use, "Huda/Xuda" or calls them Nazi's for using this term.

4. If you cannot understand the Holy Qur'an, memorising Surahs and Ayats doesn't mean anything, they are just words if you don't know the meaning.

5. There is nothing wrong or theologically against learning Islam in your native language, Islam is meant to be understood,its teachings are beautiful.

Stop mixing "dogmatic" Near Eastern ideas with our wonderfull religion, Yusuf Qardawi has commented on this. We are ignoring the essence of Islamic principles and too caught up in dogma. Wearing the hat, growing a beard, wearing a jiljab, giving the "image" does not make somebody a great muslim, its superficial and shows the materialistic nature and lack of spirituality in the modern world.

Tabriz_han-Nazism, nationalism is a same **** different pile...please do not insult my intelligence...I know what Nazism is, and I can smell Nazism from Nationalism...let me prove to you why:

Nazi is derived from the NAtionalsoZIalistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei which is National Socialist German Workers Party...

When it comes to the word Khuda, Tengri, because they were idols that worshipped during the pre-Islamic times, I would not use these words at all. In some languages Khuda, Tengri is used for "God" in literature...thus people assume that Tengri and Khuda means the same as Allah. But they do not, historically. However, from the language perspective I have no problem anyone calling the God, Khuda...or Tengri if they do not mean pre-Islaamic Idols...I meant language wise...in lexicology only...

Also, I am not against learning the basics of Islaamic religion in your tongue, this is how I learned it myself...Every science has its own "language", "terminology". No matter what language you speak, you have to use the same terminology in Mathematics, i.e arabic numbers (not the numbers used today in Iran, Arabic countries), integral sign, multiplication, and etc...so is the language of Islaam is Arabic...you like you do not like it...too bad...I mean you can still study Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" or "Hamlet" in Turkish, however, you will not truly feel the tongue of Shakespeare until you read it in the original language...that taste...is IRREPLACEABLE...trust me : ) Thus we should not stagnate on reading books on Islaam in our language...we should move on, master arabic, and be the true descendants of Bukharis and Tirmidhiys!!!

Prophet Muhammad sal'Allahu alayhiwassalam, grew and commanded to grow beard, and also he ordered us to not dress like disbelievers nor to imitate them, thus we do not imitate them : )...you have chosen to follow Shaikh Qaradawi over Muhammad sal'allahu alayhiwassalam...shame on you brother...what type of rational person you are? Would any one exchange 1 KG of Platinum to 1KG of cheap copper? Would intelligent person do that? Nope...is the answer...then why you are saying what you saying?? Have you thought about it at all?

[Tabriz_Han]

Ahkee-Abdullah
Tabriz_han-Nazism, nationalism is a same **** different pile...please do not insult my intelligence...I know what Nazism is, and I can smell Nazism from Nationalism...let me prove to you why:

Nazi is derived from the NAtionalsoZIalistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei which is National Socialist German Workers Party...


There is nothing wrong with loving your homeland, people and working hard to try and improve the region and lifes of people there. There is nothing wrong with loyalty to your homeland and loving it.


The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) when he was obliged to leave Makkah said this about beloved Makkah saying:

"O I swear by God that you are the dearest piece of land to my heart and had not your people forced me out of you, I would have never left you."

What your describing, ie Nazism, is nothing but racism, the ideology of racial superioty of the Aryan race against the rest of the world. This is what Islam is fundamentally against.

However, being a Turk is not a crime or a sin, its what we are and working to help and benefit our homelands is commended, there is nothing wrong with building schools, helping the poor and working to build a better future.

Turks are not superior or inferior to anybody else, there is no this blood that blood only human blood, were all equal, however, we are what we are I'm not ashamed of what I am and my religion doesn't teach me to be either.



Akhee-Abdullah
When it comes to the word Khuda, Tengri, because they were idols that worshipped during the pre-Islamic times, I would not use these words at all. In some languages Khuda, Tengri is used for "God" in literature...thus people assume that Tengri and Khuda means the same as Allah. But they do not, historically. However, from the language perspective I have no problem anyone calling the God, Khuda...or Tengri if they do not mean pre-Islaamic Idols...I meant language wise...in lexicology only...


I understand where your comming from, its wrong to connect idols to Allah, however, there is only one God, Islam has always existed since humans were created and this has been in different languages and cultures. For Turks, the religion was initially monothiest, one God, the name for the creating power was Tengri therefore it wasn't idolatory. Later there were some idols, however, our forefathers embraced Islam and re-verted. However, Islam is a religion, it doesn't conflict or cause people to change their culture (if its not against Islamic principles). In some Turkic communities locals will say Tanri, its just a word, the meaning and belief is more important.


integral sign, multiplication, and etc...so is the language of Islaam is Arabic...you like you do not like it...too bad...I mean you can still study Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" or "Hamlet" in Turkish, however, you will not truly feel the tongue of Shakespeare until you read it in the original language...that taste...is IRREPLACEABLE...trust me : ) Thus we should not stagnate on reading books on Islaam in our language...we should move on, master arabic, and be the true descendants of Bukharis and Tirmidhiys!!!

Hamlet and such works of English literature are a different story, its not the language which is of the essence but the use and manipulation of it.

What were discussing however, is not literature and flowery language but religion.
Even an English speaker cannot understand "Romeo and Juliet" by just picking it up, its not meant for everyone, you have to study the language and other socio-historical factors in order to understand.

However, the Holy Qur'an is for all humanity to understand. The more we learn the more knowledgable we'll become. The key is in knowing what were believing, otherwise it defeats the point.

Ahkee-Abdullah
Prophet Muhammad sal'Allahu alayhiwassalam, grew and commanded to grow beard, and also he ordered us to not dress like disbelievers nor to imitate them, thus we do not imitate them : )

Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) also had long hair but not as many men grow their hair as they do their beard. Growing a beard is not obligatory, what I was trying to point out is that some people do it just as a "show", its good to show respect however, we shouldn't be focusing on material issues and more on spiritual and more important matters.

[doranos]

Finally, you could lash me out for being Pan-Arab, Islaamist, or Anti-Turkic, I do not give a rat's a$$ about it, because I am Turkic, cannot be a anti-Turkic. I am sick of those who worship a deviant called Mustafa Kemal. I know you are gonna find it very hard to digest what I said, insha'Allah,...because Nazis...cannot comprehend my statements unless they recant their position of Nazism, and repent to Allah, and stop worshipping an idol called Turkism/Tenrism, and following its messenger, Mustafa Kemal, Enemy of Turks.

Well,i dont think that you'll comprehend my statements unless you recant your position of talibanism..

You think that Mustafa Kemal is a deviant.
Why?Because he provided us our independence and dismissed the "Enemy of Turks" who have signed treaty of sevres.
You just cant digest our struggle for freedom..

I am muslim too but im not bigot(nor pan turkic btw) and i want to understand my religion with my own language.Islam is not a religion for only Arabs...
the word "Allah" is different in all languages(the word not the creator!) and we call Allah "Tanrı" in OUR(not arab)language.

btw there is no difference between nazi and a jihadist.
digest it...

[Aziz]

Why do we read Quran that we can completely understand what Tanri says when we read it in our language?

Which one is logical? understanding or just reading without understanding?

just a simple answer to your argument:
what you're reading is not Qur'an. It is a translation of the Qur'an. Qur'an is only in Arabic.

[Karayılan]

just a simple answer to your argument:
what you're reading is not Qur'an. It is a translation of the Qur'an. Qur'an is only in Arabic.Sorry but I prefer understand what Tanri said to us than just reading like idiots. Secret of Quran is its meaning. Tanri tells everything u want in Quran. Therefore, I have to read it in my language in order to understand Tanri's words.

What u do is just Arab nationalism, that's it. Actually, such ideas are coming from Emevi times which Arab racism was very common.

PS: Don't say "Why u say Tanri" It is better than sayin Ilah that totemist Arabs called their gods or Hudo that paganist Persians used. :evil:

[Karayılan]

And Akhee-Abdullah if you know Turkish we can discuss about those parts from Quran. My english is not good so I cannot tell what I think.

I can only ask to u "Why did u translate those parts to English?" Because we couldn't understand in Arabic so we couldnt know what TANRI said to us ;)

Moreover, Pan-Turkism is not Nazism...

[Kaptan-i Derya]

I did read whole Quran in Arabic, but i also did read the translation of it to understand what the Allah's words where to us. I am also a supporter to keep everything in his original BUT you MUST do something to understand the original, otherwise it will bring you nothing but 0. In this case you have to learn to speak, read and understand arabic (i can only read) or search for a good recommended translation of it.


AKhee Abdullah, do not atack or insult your counterpart in a discussion lets keep it nice and polite. You do insult people by saying Nazi or something similar for just saying it should been translated into the language that your own people should understand and then you reply with a passage from Qur'an with an ENGLISH translation, why did you do that? You are making a clown of yourself by doing that or give me an reasonable answer.

Also to which scholary do you belong to? Hanafi?

[Aziz]

Sorry but I prefer understand what Tanri said to us than just reading like idiots. Secret of Quran is its meaning. Tanri tells everything u want in Quran. Therefore, I have to read it in my language in order to understand Tanri's words.

What u do is just Arab nationalism, that's it. Actually, such ideas are coming from Emevi times which Arab racism was very common.

PS: Don't say "Why u say Tanri" It is better than sayin Ilah that totemist Arabs called their gods or Hudo that paganist Persians used. :evil:

I didn't say that you shouldn't read the translation in your language. But you cannot call that Qur'an.
Anyway, how about saying "Allah" it is not a name of an idol or a totem. It is the name of the one God, The God who revealed Qur'an, the God of Muhammed.

[Karayılan]

I didn't say that you shouldn't read the translation in your language. But you cannot call that Qur'an.
Anyway, how about saying "Allah" it is not a name of an idol or a totem. It is the name of the one God, The God who revealed Qur'an, the God of Muhammed.
Well, reading Quran in Arabic has no benefit for me. I cannot understand so it is better to use my time for reading its translation. That was the topic actually...

Also, Allah comes from El Ilah. Old Arabs called their totems as Ilah(God in Arabic). Therefore, the name Tanri, Allah, Rab, Huda, God... are all same. All of them were used before Islam for the totems or Pagan gods.

[Aziz]

Also, Allah comes from El Ilah. Old Arabs called their totems as Ilah(God in Arabic). Therefore, the name Tanri, Allah, Rab, Huda, God... are all same. All of them were used before Islam for the totems or Pagan gods.

you are wrong...Allah was never used for any pagan God. It was used by Arabs before Islam for the same God we worship. They used to worship Allah along with the other Gods.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Well, reading Quran in Arabic has no benefit for me. I cannot understand so it is better to use my time for reading its translation. That was the topic actually...

Also, Allah comes from El Ilah. Old Arabs called their totems as Ilah(God in Arabic). Therefore, the name Tanri, Allah, Rab, Huda, God... are all same. All of them were used before Islam for the totems or Pagan gods.

Turansoyu - let me tell you something, and I will be very frank with you, insha'Allah.

1) Aziz, myself are Turkic people...we would never promote Arab nationalism, because we are against Arab nationalism as we are against Turkish nationalism. I can very much assure, if someone like you stood up and called for Arab nationalism, I would fight against him, as I would fight against you...and I will advise you to read the next post...to know why I hold this position : )

2) The Word Allah, اﷲ, means The DEITY, it does not mean Sky God, Heaven God, Geese (Birds) : ), Ancestors' Spirit, Angel to be Worshipped (Khuda) as other words were referred to historically.

The word Allah was never ever used for an Idol even in the pre-Islaamic times, in fact when Arabs of Jahilia referred to Allah in their lexicon, they meant a Supreme Deity who created all of these deities, also they did not EQUATE Allah with other Idols, in fact Pagan Arabs DID believe, there was One Supreme Creator, to prove this point I will bring you these verses from the Qur'an:

قُلْ مَن يَرْزُقُكُم مِّنَ السَّمَاء وَالأَرْضِ أَمَّن يَمْلِكُ السَّمْعَ والأَبْصَارَ وَمَن يُخْرِجُ الْحَيَّ مِنَ الْمَيِّتِ وَيُخْرِجُ الْمَيَّتَ مِنَ الْحَيِّ وَمَن يُدَبِّرُ الأَمْرَ فَسَيَقُولُونَ اللّهُ فَقُلْ أَفَلاَ تَتَّقُونَ

Say (O Muhammad SAW ): "Who provides for you from the sky and from the earth? Or who owns hearing and sight? And who brings out the living from the dead and brings out the dead from the living? And who disposes the affairs?" They (Pagans) will say: "Allah." Say: "Will you not then be afraid of Allah's Punishment (for setting up rivals in worship with Allah)?" (Yunus 10:31)

As you can see those idolators deemed Allah to be The Supreme Creator not a mere Idol.

أَلَا لِلَّهِ الدِّينُ الْخَالِصُ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاء مَا نَعْبُدُهُمْ إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَا إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفَى إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِي مَا هُمْ فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ كَاذِبٌ كَفَّارٌ

Surely, the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allah only. And those who take Auliya' (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): "We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah." Verily, Allah will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allah guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever. (Az-Zumar 39:3)

As you read in this ayah, the pagans did not worship idols because they believed that there were many main gods, no rather they DID believe, there was One Supreme Deity, and they did believe by worshipping the "daughters of Allah" they would be close to Allah, this is same as seeing many Turks going and worshipping the grave of Abdil Qadir Jilani, Jalaluddin Rumi, Naqshabandi (May Allah forgive them) and others who worked for and served the Muslims. We observe the same argument from those who ask those dead people in the grave saying, "These are holy people, close to God, they hear our calls, and could intercede on our behalf with God", this practice is unfortunately widespread amongst the Turkic people and the people of Indian Subcontinent...

Now, they idols that Arabs worshipped were actually, many of them were pious people like Abdil Qadir Jilani...the proof of that is a well known statement...now let's look at these ayahs:

أَفَرَأَيْتُمُ اللَّاتَ وَالْعُزَّى

Have you then considered Al-Lat, and Al-'Uzza (two idols of the pagan Arabs) (An-Najm 53:19)

وَمَنَاةَ الثَّالِثَةَ الْأُخْرَى

And Manat (another idol of the pagan Arabs), the other third? (An-Najm 53:20)

Commenting on the above mentioned verses Ibn Jarir at-Tabaree (the author of the famous Tafseer at-Tabaree) mentions the explanation of Mujahid, “He (al-Laat) used to serve the pilgrims by preparing Seewaq (fine flour of barley or wheat mixed with water and ghee) for them. After his death, the people began to stay and confine at his grave for the purpose of reward.”

Now if we look at Imam Ibn Katheer (rahimahullah)'s tafsir mentions in Qasas al-Ambiya:

“Ibn Abi Hatim related this story, “Waddan was a righteous man, who was loved by his people. When he died, they withdrew to his grave in the land of Babylonia and were overwhelmed by sadness. When Iblees (name of Shaytaan) saw their sorrow caused by his death, he disguised himself in the form of a man saying, ‘I have seen your sorrow because of this man’s death; can I make a statue like him which could be put in your meeting place to make you remember him?’ They said: ‘Yes.’ So, he made a statue like him. They put it in their meeting place in order to be reminded of him. When Iblees saw their interest in remembering him, he said: ‘Can I build a statue of him in the home of each one of you so that he would be in everyone’s house and you could remember him?’ They agreed. Their children learned about and saw what they were doing. They also learned about their remembrance of him, until they took him to be a deity and worshiped him instead of Allah. So, the first to be worshiped instead of Allah was Waddan, the idol which they named thus.”

As we could see now, for Pagan Arabs Allah did not merely mean a god, but it was The God...Also keep in mind the Jewish and Christian Arabs called their Lord Allah, and they do so till day, if you look at the Arabic Translation of the Bible, both in the Torah, and The New Testament sections you see the word Allah often, when it refers to the Supreme and only God. Aslo in Hebrew the Word God is El (אל) or Eloah (אלוה)

This becomes further clear if you look at:

وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَهُنَا وَإِلَهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)." (Al-'Ankabut 29:46)

I provided several irrefutable proofs for my arguments...

Now, let's move on to the next argument...

[Akhee-Abdullah]

2) Pan-Turkists are one of the greatest threats to the Islaamic ummah, because they are dividing the ummah based on blood, race, i.e Turkicness...before, knowing Islaam, I used to be a huge supporter for the unity of Turkic nations...then I had conversations with several people, which shed light to me that, actually Pan-Turkism is an attemt by Turkey to increase its sphere of influence on the other Turkic nations...I am absolutely convinced, Turkish people would not accept Uzbeks to Rule the Turkic nations...Because, it is the intent of Turkish to rule other Turkic people...that also proves that these Pan-Turkists contradict themselves....They do not want to really unite Turks, rather they Want to Unite and Rule all the Turkic people.

3) Turkic tribes were NEVER historically united. Rather historically they always FOUGHT EACH OTHER...Uzbeks were never really friends with Oghuz Turks...Rather, just remind them of Amir Temur and the humiliation of Bayazid, the blood of Turkish people boil...: ) Also, let me tell you, Mr. Pan-Turkist, Uzbeks have more in Common with Mongolians than the Oghuz Turks (except uzbeks of Khorazm, they are actully, oghuz people)...Kipchak and Qarluq Turkic tribes kicked ancestor's A$$ so hard that Seljuqi Empire of your Ancestors crumbled and fell into the hands of Karakhanis : )...since that day you guys were exiled from Central Asia : )...well let me correct myself...there was another Oghuz Empire which lasted longer, Khorazm-Shahs, they defeated Karakhanids...however, my great grand father Chingiz-Khan, came and kicked the last Khorazm-Shah's A$$ so hard that, no more Oghuz Dominance was left : )...the Age of Uzbeks really started : )...so guess what...we are your historical foes, we were not your allies....and we were never united...and do not even dream about it...if I have a drop of blood in me left...I am gonna fight to abase those Oghuz turks if they raise their finger to rule over my people!!!

4) Finally, as a good gesture...let me remind you that on the day of Judgment Allah will speak to people in ARABIC, not in your broken dialect of Turkic!!!

edited

Yes, the residents of paradise in the company of their prophet Muhammad sal'Allahu alayhi wassalam will converse with each other in Arabic...I am not praising Arab people...I believe, we are all the children of Adam...rather I am showing respect to the Language in which Qur'an was revealed...

To be honest, as I said earlier, we all come from Adam, why limit ourselves to Yasin only??? Anyhow Yasin, the father of Turkic people descended from Adam... : )

My Turkish friend...open your eyes...do not live in illusion...Iysa alayhissalam will fight the Dajjal and he is of Ishaq alayhissalam, Mahdi will be ARAB...be proud if Turks end up being foot soldiers to be fighting for the cause of Islaam, this the greatest honor to the Turks, if you only understood!!!

Those Turks who took Istaanbul were not brainwashed Pan-Turkists like you, they were Muslims, they did not make Adhan in Turkish like Mustafa Kemal did, nor did they claim that there is no Benefit in Reading Qur'an, they should only read the translation of the approximate meaning...

edited

[Qarama]

very logical, the turks mixed with the people which they have ruled for many centuries but the others didn't mix ;)

i'm sure that you are not 100% mongolian (i said mongols because he really has the opinion that uzbeks are mongols or have more in common)

your words sound like from a non believer if you are a muslim than behave like one!

"la ilahe ilallah muhammedun rasulullah" is written in your avatar and not "say bad thinks about turks"

it seems like that you must learn more about Islam.

btw. i'm not a pan turkist, but they don't have an idea of beeing your and other turkic peoples masters.

[Einstein]

Moreover, Pan-Turkism is not Nazism...
You are exactly right, Panturkism is more than Nazism.
Nazism is just a drop in the ocean of Panturkism. :)

turansoyu: Please change your nick into something in your own language that you could be able to understand it.
Otherwise, as what you said, with your bublle headed charms you can not understand anything?

[Aziz]

4) Finally, as a good gesture...let me remind you that on the day of Judgment Allah will speak to people in ARABIC, not in your broken dialect of Turkic!!!


what's your evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah?

[Akhee-Abdullah]

what's your evidence from the Qur'an or Sunnah?

Aziz- This is my evidence for I being wrong on that issue and relying on a fabricated hadeeth. Jazakum'Allah khairan for asking me the question, it led me to correct this mistaken idea I had:

Question:
I would like to know what the language of the people of Paradise is. Is it Arabic?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

There is no mention in the Qur’aan or in the saheeh Sunnah – as far as we know – of which language is spoken by the people of Paradise. What is narrated concerning that is a hadeeth which is not soundly narrated from our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and some other reports (athaar).

It was narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat, al-Haakim, al-Bayhaqi in Shu’ab al-Eemaan and others that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Love the Arabs for three reasons, because I am an Arab, the Qur’aan is Arabic and the speech of the people of Paradise is Arabic.”

Ibn al-Jawzi ruled that this hadeeth is fabricated. Al-Dhahabi said: I think that the hadeeth is fabricated (mawdoo’). Al-Albaani said in al-Silsilah al-Da’eefah (no. 160): (it is) fabricated.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Similarly, Abu Ja’far Muhammad ibn ‘Abd-Allaah al-Haafiz al-Koofi, who is known as Mateen, told us: al-‘Ala’ ibn ‘Amr al-Hanafi told us: Yahya ibn Zayd al-Ash’ari told us: Ibn Jurayj told us, from Ibn 'Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Love the Arabs for three reasons: because I am an Arab, the Qur’aan is Arabic, and the language of the people of Paradise is Arabic.”

Al-Haafiz al-Salafi said: this is a hasan hadeeth. I do not know whether he meant that its isnaad is hasan according to the way of the scholars of hadeeth, or that its text is hasan in general terms. Abu’l-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi mentioned this hadeeth among the mawdoo’ (fabricated) texts and said: al-Tha’labi said: it has no basis. Ibn Hibbaan said: Yahya ibn Zayd narrated unsound ahaadeeth from sound narrators, so it is invalid to quote his reports as evidence. And Allaah knows best.

End quote from Iqtida’ al-Siraat al-Mustaqeem (1/158).

Al-Tabaraani narrated in al-Awsat that Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I am an Arab, and the Qur’aan is Arabic, and the language of the people of Paradise is Arabic.”

Al-Albaani said in al-Silsilah al-Da’eefah (no. 161): it is fabricated.

The point is that there is no saheeh evidence to show which language is spoken by the people of Paradise. Hence we should refrain from speaking about this issue and not indulge in it, and we should refer knowledge of the matter to Allaah (may He be exalted), and focus instead on issues that will lead to good deeds in this world.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: in what (language) will Allaah address the people on the Day of Resurrection? Will Allaah address them in the tongue of the Arabs? Is it true that the language of the people of Hell will be Farsi and that the language of the people of Paradise will be Arabic? He replied: Praise be to Allaah, the Lord of the Worlds. It is not known what language the people will speak on that Day, or in what language they will hear the words of the Lord, may He be exalted, because Allaah has not told us anything about that, nor has His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). It is not true that Farsi will be the language of the people of Hell, or that Arabic will be the language of the people of Paradise. We do not know of any discussion of that among the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them), rather all of them refrained from speaking of that because speaking about such a thing is discussion of something unnecessary… but there was a dispute concerning that among later scholars. Some people said that they will be addressed in Arabic and others said that the people of Hell will respond in Farsi, which will be their language in Hell. Others said that they will be addressed in Syriac because that was the language of Adam and from it stemmed all other languages. Others said that the people of Paradise will speak Arabic. There is no basis for any of these ideas, whether on the grounds of common sense or in any report or text, rather they are mere claims that are devoid of any evidence. And Allaah knows best and is most Wise. End quote.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa (4/299)

And Allaah knows best.http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=83262&ln=eng&txt=arabic

[Akhee-Abdullah]

The Evils Of Nationalism

By the Noble Scholar, Shaykh ’Abdul-’Azeez Ibn Baaz

Indeed Islaam has forbidden the calls of jaahiliyyah (the pre-Islaamic days of ignorance) and there are many textual evidences which forbid all of the characteristics and manners of jaahiliyyah and their actions, except those (good and decent) practices which Islaam agreed to. And there is no doubt that the call to nationalism is from these calls of jaahiliyyah, since nationalism is a call to other than Islaam and an aiding of other than the truth. And how many ills, evils and serious wars has such calls of jaahiliyyah caused to their people, causing great harm to their souls, their wealth and their possessions. The consequences of such calls (for the Muslims) was a splitting up of their unity and a planting of enmity and hatred of each other in their hearts and a fragmentation and splitting between tribes and nations.

Ibn Taymiyyah (d.728H) – rahimahullaah – said: [2] “Everything which is outside the call of Islaam and the Qur‘aan, with regards to lineage, land, nationality, schools of thoughts and ways, then it is from the calls of jaahiliyyah. Indeed, even when the Muhaajirs (those Companions who migrated from Makkah to al-Madeenah) and the Ansaars (those Companions who aided and supported those who migrated) argued, such that one of the Muhaajirs said: “O Muhaajirs! (implying; rally to my aid).” And then one of the Ansaar said: “O Ansaar!” Upon hearing this, the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said: “Is it with the calls of jaahiliyyah that you call, and I am still amongst you!” And he became very angry at that.” [3]

And from the textual evidences pertaining to this issue is Allaah the Most High’s saying:

“And stay in your homes and do not display yourselves, like the display of the times of jaahiliyyah (pre-Islaamic ignorance). But establish the Prayer, give the Zakaat and obey Allaah and His Messenger.” [Sooratul-Ahzaab 33:33]

“When those who disbelieved placed in their hearts pride and arrogance the pride and arrogance of jaahiliyyah then Allaah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam and upon the Believers...” [Sooratul-Fath 48:26].

The Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said: “Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa’ah (united body) and dies, then he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for ’asabiyyah (partisanship and party spirit), or calling to ’asabiyyah, or assisting ’asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah.” [4] Also in Saheeh Muslim (8/120), the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said: “Indeed Allaah has revealed to me that you should have humility, and that no one should act proudly and oppressively over anyone else, nor should anyone boast over anyone else.”
And there is no doubt that the call to nationalism is a call to ’asabiyyah (partisanship and party spirit) and it is a call to becoming angry for the sake of ’asabiyyah and fighting for ’asabiyyah. And there is no doubt also, that the call to nationalism is a call to transgression, pride and arrogance, since nationalism is not a divinely revealed way of life which prevents its people from oppression and proud boasting. Rather it is an ideology from the time of jaahiliyyah which leads its people to boasting about it and having ’asabiyyah for it even if they are the oppressors and the others are the oppressed! So – O noble reader – consider this and the truth will be clear to you.

And from the textual evidences connected with this is what at-Tirmidhee relates from Allaah’s Messenger (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) that he said: “Let people stop boasting about their forefathers who have died, who are merely fuel for the Hellfire; or they will certainly be more insignificant with Allaah than the beetle which roles dung with its nose. Allaah has removed from you the party spirit of the days of jaahiliyyah and the boasting about one’s forefathers. Indeed a person is either a pious Believer or a wretched sinner. All of mankind are the children of Aadam, and Aadam was created from clay.” [5]

[Akhee-Abdullah]

The Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) also said: “Indeed there is no excellence for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab over an Arab, nor a white person over a black one, nor a black person over a white one, except through taqwaa (piety and obedience to Allaah).” [6]

And this accords with Allaah the Most High's saying:

“O mankind! We have created you from male and female and have made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Indeed the most noblest of you with Allaah is the one who has the most taqwaa.” [Sooratul-Hujuraat 49:13].

So Allaah – the One free from all defects – made clear in this noble aayah (verse) that people have been made into nations and tribes so that they may come to know each other, not that they should boast and have pride over one another. And Allaah the Most High considered the most noblest of them to be the one with the most piety and taqwaa. Likewise, the previously mentioned narration shows the same meaning, and guides to the fact that it is from the ways of jaahiliyyah to vainly boast and to have false pride for one’s fore fathers and ancestry.

This is what the calls of jaahiliyyah lead to, whereas Islaam is in opposition to this. Rather Islaam calls to modesty, humility, taqwaa and to having love for the sake of Allaah, and that the true and sincere Muslims are merely one of the categories of the children of Aadam (’alayhis-salaam), and that the Muslims are a single body and a single structure; each part supporting the other and each part feeling the pain that the other parts are suffering as occurs in an authentic hadeeth (narration) from the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam), that he said: “The Believer to the Believer is like a solid building, one part supports the other.” And he interlaced his fingers to demonstrate this. [7].

The Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) also said: “The example of the Believer in their mutual love and mercy is like the example of a body, if one part of the body feels pain, then all the body suffers in sleeplessness and fever.” [8]

O people! I call to you in the name of Allaah. Does your nationalism call you to these noble manners of mercy and kindness to the Muslims the Arabs and the non-Arabs and of having mutual sympathy and concern for them, and feeling pain at their pain? No, by Allaah! Rather it calls you to having allegiance with those who have evil character and it calls you to cultivating enmity and hatred for those who deny this false creed of nationalism. So beware, O Muslim who desires safety and salvation, and consider the reality of the affair with a fair consideration, without being prejudiced with party spirit and desires. Only then you will see the reality as it truly is. So may Allaah guide me and you to the means of safety and salvation.

And it is related by Imaam al-Bukhaaree in his Saheeh (8/137), that a young man from the Muhaajirs and a young man from the Ansaar quarreled. So the Muhaajir said: “O Muhaajirs! (meaning: rally to my help).” And the Ansaaree said: “O Ansaar!” So the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) heard this and said: “Is it with the call of jaahiliyyah that you are calling out, and I am present amongst you!” Even though the term Muhaajir and Ansaar are two ascriptions which are beloved to Allaah the One free from all defects and He has praised these two groups with a very great praise, in His the Most High’s saying:

“And the first to embrace Islaam from the Muhaajirs and the Ansaar, and those who followed them in goodness, beliefs and actions. Allaah is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens of Paradise, beneath which rivers flow, to live therein forever. That is the supreme achievement.” [Sooratut-Tawbah 9:100].

Yet in the above incident, this ascription to the Muhaajirs and seeking the help from them, and the Ansaar and seeking the help from them, when the likes of this was considered to be from the calls of jaahiliyyah, then what about those who claim allegiance e to nationalism and seek help through that and become angry for that? Will this not be more fitting to be considered one of the calls from the days of jaahiliyyah? This is a matter in which there is no doubt, and it is one of the clearest of all matters.

And this is what has been established in the authentic hadeeth (narration), from al-Haarith al-Ash’aree (radiyallaahu ’anhu), that the Prophet (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said: “I order you with five things which Allaah ordered me with: The Jamaa’ah, listening, obeying, hijrah (migration) and jihaad in the way of Allaah the Mighty and Majestic. So whosoever separates from the Jamaa’ah by a hand span, he throws the yoke of Islaam from his neck, unless he repents. And whosoever calls with the call of jaahiliyyah (the days of ignorance), then he is from the hoarded heap of Hell Fire.” It was said: Even if he fasts and prays? He said: “Even if he fasts and prays. So call with the call of Allaah which Allaah gave: The Muslims, the Believers, Worshippers of Allaah.” [9]

This hadeeth is absolutely clear with regards to rendering futile the calls to nationalism. Its callers deserve that they should be from the heap of Hellfire, even if they fast and they pray and claim that they are Muslims. So what a severe threat and severe warning is given here; warning every Muslim from the calls of jaahiliyyah and warning them from entering into this even if such calls are adorned with false talks and enchanting speeches. Rather it is a deception and a blind following which leads it s people to the worst and most despicable of ends. And we ask Allaah for safety and freedom from that.

Footnotes:

[1] Naqdul-Qawmiyyatul-’Arabiyyah (pp.39-44), slightly edited

[2] Majmoo’ul-Fataawaa (3/456)

[3] Related by al-Bukhaaree (8/137)

[4] Related by Muslim in his Saheeh (6/21), from Aboo Hurayrah (radiyallaahu ’anhu).

[5] Hasan: Related by Aboo Daawood (no. 5116) and at-Tirmidhee (no. 4233) from Abu Hurayrah (radiyallaahu ’anhu). It was authenticated by Ibn Taymiyyah in Kitaabul-Iqtidaa‘ (p. 35).

[6] Saheeh: Related by Ahmad (5/411), and it was authenticated by Ibn Taymiyyah in Kitaabul-Iqtidaa‘ (p. 69).

[7] Related by al-Bukhaaree (no. 481) and Muslim (no. 2585) from Aboo Hurayrah (radiyallaahu ’anhu).

[8] Related by al-Bukhaaree (no. 6011) and Muslim (no. 2586) from an-Nu’maan Ibn Basheer (radiyallaahu ’anhu).

[9] Saheeh: Related by at-Tirmidhee (no. 2863) and at-Tiyaalisee (no. 1161) and others. It was authenticated by Shaykh al-Albaanee in his checking to Ibn Abee ’Aasim’s as-Sunnah

[Akhee-Abdullah]

very logical, the turks mixed with the people which they have ruled for many centuries but the others didn't mix ;)

i'm sure that you are not 100% mongolian (i said mongols because he really has the opinion that uzbeks are mongols or have more in common)

your words sound like from a non believer if you are a muslim than behave like one!

"la ilahe ilallah muhammedun rasulullah" is written in your avatar and not "say bad thinks about turks"

it seems like that you must learn more about Islam.

btw. i'm not a pan turkist, but they don't have an idea of beeing your and other turkic peoples masters.

Bakma-I was being sarcastic...all I wanted to say was that Turkish people and Uzbeks do not even look the same : ) in general...I did not want to say, Turkish are bastards of Greeks...I apologize for using the wrong words...however, I said may be, supposedly, I did not claim certain proof unlike someone who claimed that I was born out of wed lock : ) ...Again all I wanted to say was that we do not even look the same, we were never united, we did not descend from Oghuz Turks...rather Ozbeks are mix of Tukic, Mongol, Persian and other groups...However, Ozbeks are more Mogol than anything!!! Read this article from BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1502189.stm

These migrations are reflected in the DNA, too, and it is clear that despite the majority of modern Central Asians speaking Turkic languages, they derive much of their genetic heritage from the conquering Mongol warriors of Genghis Khan.

I am not at all against the Turkic nations uniting against the enemies of Muslims and standing strong against them!!! What I am against is, uniting upon FALSEHOOD, i.e NATIONALISM. We should unite upon Islaam all Muslims not only Turkic people...

Unfortunately, I noticed amongst lots of Turkish people the desease of Arrogance, Nationalism, Hatred towards Arab people...

If they want to change everything, why do not they change the Word Qur'an to Oqish Kitobi, and Islaam into Taslimlik dini...yeah, we should also ask them to come up with a new word for Muhammad (sal'Allahu alayhiwassalam)...This is ridiculious, stupidity should have some limits...

I would love to see Turkic people united, it is sad to see Turkey inching towards Europe...giving up on Islaam as a rule, it is sad to see 2-3 mln Kafir-Secular Turks marching against the Muslim Parliament members...it aches the heart definietly...I wish Turkic nations created their own with other Muslim nations to create their own Union...

On one side, claiming to unite the Turkic people, on the other hand, giving up Islaam, and inching towards Europe, make me to doubt the honesty of Pan-Turkists...They honestly, do not mind uniting with Buddhist Turkic people living up there in Siberia of Russia...

This is all I have to say about this topic...I am Turkic myself, I am not ashamed of myself, at the same time, I believe a Pakistani is not inferiour to me just because he is dark, or smells with Biryani...

As long as a person is sincere to Allah azza wa jaal and obeys Him sincerely, we are brothers in Islaam and all have degrees according to their deeds, and sincerity...Allah does not favor people because he is a jew or english, or turk or arab, we are all the same to Him as long as we are obeying and worshipping Him alone...

[Qoraka]

just a simple answer to your argument:
what you're reading is not Qur'an. It is a translation of the Qur'an. Qur'an is only in Arabic.


Brother Aziz.
There is no translation of the Quran. The Holy Quran can not be translated. There are only translations of the meanings of the Quran. Only Allah SWT knows the full meaning of the Quran.

With regards,

AAWW

[Kaptan-i Derya]

You have to bring evidence for your statement...otherwise, you will known in this forum as a Kadh-dhab/LIAR!!!

Ok i'll proove it:

Turkic tribes were NEVER historically united. Rather historically they always FOUGHT EACH OTHER...Uzbeks were never really friends with Oghuz Turks...Rather, just remind them of Amir Temur and the humiliation of Bayazid, the blood of Turkish people boil...: ) Turkic people where once united, look into history or get a proper history lession. Xiong Nu (Huns as we know it), Gök Turuk empire.
Uzbeks arent, wherent a tribe on themselfs, they where part of the Qarluq Turkic tribes.
Also you seem to be happy that Amir Timur did humiliated Beyazid and the boiling of the blood of Turkish people. That's what i call hatred.

This one part is full of bias, hatred and propaganda but it doesnt end in here, lets continue lil bit.

Uzbeks have more in Common with Mongolians than the Oghuz Turks (except uzbeks of Khorazm, they are actully, oghuz people)...Kipchak and Qarluq Turkic tribes kicked ancestor's A$$ so hard that Seljuqi Empire of your Ancestors crumbled and fell into the hands of Karakhanis : )...since that day you guys were exiled from Central Asia : ) Uzbeks and Mongolians have nothing but nothing in common otherwise proove it!
Seljuqi fell into the hands of Karakhanids?? Give me the source of this please. ALso something interesting that you might to know it, Karakhanids where the first Turkic khanate that accepted Islam as a religion, also they where the first Turkic people who did translated Qur'an into Turkish!

there was another Oghuz Empire which lasted longer, Khorazm-Shahs, they defeated Karakhanids...however, my great grand father Chingiz-Khan, came and kicked the last Khorazm-Shah's A$$ so hard that, no more Oghuz Dominance was left : ) You are soo proud of Chingiz khan dont you? What did he do in the name of Islam, tell what? You remember the besieging of Bagdat by mongols? The Muslim capital of learning and science? What did happen to Bagdat after the besieging? And who did defeated him twice? ALso the last khorazm prince Jelaleddin did defeated an Mongol army.

So you do believe there where no Oghuz dominance left in Central asia, look to this:
Sovereign of The Osman Family, Sultan es Selatin (Sultan of Sultans), Khakhan (Khan of the Khans), Caliph of the Faithful, Servant of the Cities of Mecca, Medina and Kouds (Jerusalem), Padishas of The Three Cities of Istanbul (Constantinople), Edirne (Andrinople) and Bursa (Brousse), and of the Cities of Châm (Damascus) and Misr (Egypt), of all Azerbaijan, of Mägris, of Barkah, of Kairouan, of Alep, of Iraq, of Arabia and of Ajim, of Basra, of El Hasa, of Dilen, of Raka, of Mosul, of Parthia, of Diyarbakir, of Cilicia, of the Vilayets of Erzurum, of Sivas, of Adana, of Karaman, of Van, of Barbaria, of Habech (Abyssinia), of Tunisia, of Tyrabolos (Tripoli), of Châm (Damascus), of Kybris (Cyprus), of Rhodes, of Candia, of the Vilayet of Morea (Peloponnese), of Ak Deniz (Marmara Sea), of Kara Deniz (Black Sea), of Anatolia, of Rumelia (the European part of the Empire), of Bagdad, of Kurdistan, of Greece, of Turkestan, of Tartary, of Circassia, of the two regions of Kabarda, of Gorjestan, of the plain of Kypshak, of the whole country of the Tartars, of Kefa and of all the neighbouring countries, of Bosnia and dependancies, of the City of Belgrade, of the Vilayet of Serf (Serbia), with all the castles and cities, of all the Arnaut Vilayet (Albania), of all Iflak and Bogdania, as well as all the dependancies and borders, and many others countries and cities
this was the Ottoman title used till the end of their dominance, so there wherent any Oghuz dominance left eh?

Again i proved you did lie and barked your hatred, but i'll continue non stop.

I am gonna fight to abase those Oghuz turks if they raise their finger to rule over my people!!! heey big guy, who are you to speak on behalf of whole Uzbek population?

4) Finally, as a good gesture...let me remind you that on the day of Judgment Allah will speak to people in ARABIC, not in your broken dialect of Turkic!!! I have never heard this statement before my entire life, this is simply nonsense!

Proove this!!

I'll have to go to work now, i'll continue when im back inshallah.

[Qarama]

what i can't understand is this:

-you do so that you are a strong believer but you write racist replies and hatred full posts against Oghuz people. Don't you know that hatred toward other people is forbidden?

-you say pan-turkists are Nazis but on the other hand you say we are a mixture nation?

[Abu-Hafiza]

Unbelievable

I always respected muslim turks but seeing the likes of Turansoyu makes me disgusted of even speaking to likes of him. fortunately, I know that not all of turks or supporters of Turkic union are like Turansoyu and Turansoyu and some of the turkish members of the forum are tiny minority.

Those people are even allergic to word Allah prefering to call Him as "tanri".
Allah is the name of Lord of Ibrahim and is not only the "arabic name" for Him (SWT). Those narrow minded chauvinists hate anything to do with arabs under the prefix that Arabs have betrayed Turks but they dont have any problem with learning English and actually debating in religeouse issues in English. If you guys are so hard core "turkish" why dont you learn Uzbek and we perhaps could discuss in the language of Navoiy?

Those people find learning Arabic insulting but they have no problem of learning English although English will not benifit them neither in this world nore hearafter. English is actually the language of open enemies of Turks while Arabic is the language on which your faith has been revieled. This is the biggest contradiction. they also prefer to learn English first and then pretend to be learning other turkick languages. Turansoyu, if you are brave enough, lets discuss this issue in Uzbek?

Qur'an is not even understood fully by arab speakers, thats why we have "ilm al tafsir". Qur'an is the miracle of Allah, revieled in Arabic and it should be recieted in Arabic. Throughout the history there are millions of greatest non arab scholars who changed the course of history and humanity, NON of them actually advocated praying in Turkish or reading qur'an in Turkish or other language at all.

Turansoyu, dont forget that even the state language of Seljuk turks was NOT Turkish, Ottoman turks did not speak Turkish (Seljuk's official language was Persian and Ottomans had their own language, osmanli language).

Noone is stopping you from reading the translation of the meaning of Noble Qur'an in any language you want, but one thing you should not forget is that translators write what they understand. I dont want to read what translator actually understood, I want to understand what Allah is saying to me. For that reason, I prefer to read Qur'an in Arabic, where I am stuck, I would refer to different translations AND most importantly I would read the tafseer (commentory of the Qur'an) in order to understand it clearer.

If the translation of Quran was enough, why would there be hundreds of translations of Qur'an into Turkish for example and not one version so that everyone could read it? Same goes to translations of quran into Uzbek, Russian, Persian, Urdu and so on.

Those who claim that everyone can understand Qur'an directly contradict to what Allah is saying:


هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ

3.7 . У сенга китобни туширган зотдир. Унда муҳкам оятлар ҳам бор ва улар китобнинг аслидир ва муташобиҳ (оят)лар ҳам бор. Қалбларида ҳидоятдан оғиш борлар фитна мақсадида ва уни таъвил қилиш мақсадида ундан муташобиҳ бўлганига эргашади. Унинг таъвилини Аллоҳдан бошқа ҳеч ким билмас. Илмда собит бўлганлар эса, унга иймон келтирдик, барчаси Раббимиз ҳузуридандир, дерлар. Ва фақат ақл эгаларигина эслайдилар. («Муҳкам» сўзи маҳкам, очиқ-ойдин, бошқа ёққа буриб бўлмайдиган, деган маънони англатади. «Муштабоҳ» сўзи эса, ўхшаш, бирини биридан ажратиш қийин, бир неча маъноларни англатадиган, деган маъноларни билдиради. Қуръони Карим оятлари ҳам муҳкам ва муташобиҳга бўлинади.)
(O, sana Kitab’ı indirendir. Onun (Kur’an’ın) bazı вyetleri muhkemdir, onlar kitabın anasıdır. Diğerleri de mьteşabihdir.4 Kalplerinde bir eğrilik olanlar, fitne зıkarmak ve onun olmadık yorumlarını yapmak iзin mьteşabih вyetlerinin ardına dьşerler. Oysa onun gerзek manasını ancak Allah bilir. İlimde derinleşmiş olanlar, “Ona inandık, hepsi Rabbimiz katındandır” derler. (Bu inceliği) ancak akıl sahipleri dьşьnьp anlar.)
What is mutesabih?
(Mьteşabih вyetler, manasını ve hakikatini sadece Allah’ın bildiği вyetlerdir. Bunların insan zihni tarafından tьmьyle kavranmasına imkan yoktur.)

So Allah is saying that there are some verses that people would not understand and those who try to explain it (do ta'vil) are those who have deviation in their hearts.

The conclusive evidence brought by Akhee-Abdullah shows once and for all that Qur'an, the Holy Book of Allah is in ARABIC and the reast of the translations can only serve for one purpose only, to HELP to understand the meaning and cannot be the means of worship and prayers.

Once on this subject, I would like to make following statement:

Although I agree with most of what Akhee Abdullah is saying, I would like to remind brother Akhee Abdullah not to get too agressive and not to cross the line while trying to explain things. Insults and agression are not the proper way of carrying the da'wah. I hate chauvinism and ultra-nationalism as much as you do but it shouldnt lead to throw insults to those who do not agree with what you are saying.

with regards to Qaradawi, some people respect and follow Qaradawi as much as you respect and follow Sheikh Ibn Baaz, sheikh Albani, Sheikh Uthaymin or shayhul islam Ibn Taymiyya so we must respect our scholars as well. Just the reminder, I hope you dont get it personal.

[Karayılan]

Salafi, It is better to be a Turkist than a Vahabi like u.

Aptalligin gozlerimi kamastirdi ayrica. Sen Arablarin putlara dedigi gibi Ilah de, Eski Misir tanrilarina soyledikleri gibi Rab de, ya da atese tapanlar gibi Huda de. Ne istersen de ama benim ne dedigime karisma tamam?

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Unbelievable

I always respected muslim turks but seeing the likes of Turansoyu makes me disgusted of even speaking to likes of him. fortunately, I know that not all of turks or supporters of Turkic union are like Turansoyu and Turansoyu and some of the turkish members of the forum are tiny minority.

Those people are even allergic to word Allah prefering to call Him as "tanri".
Allah is the name of Lord of Ibrahim and is not only the "arabic name" for Him (SWT). Those narrow minded chauvinists hate anything to do with arabs under the prefix that Arabs have betrayed Turks but they dont have any problem with learning English and actually debating in religeouse issues in English. If you guys are so hard core "turkish" why dont you learn Uzbek and we perhaps could discuss in the language of Navoiy?

Those people find learning Arabic insulting but they have no problem of learning English although English will not benifit them neither in this world nore hearafter. English is actually the language of open enemies of Turks while Arabic is the language on which your faith has been revieled. This is the biggest contradiction. they also prefer to learn English first and then pretend to be learning other turkick languages. Turansoyu, if you are brave enough, lets discuss this issue in Uzbek?

Qur'an is not even understood fully by arab speakers, thats why we have "ilm al tafsir". Qur'an is the miracle of Allah, revieled in Arabic and it should be recieted in Arabic. Throughout the history there are millions of greatest non arab scholars who changed the course of history and humanity, NON of them actually advocated praying in Turkish or reading qur'an in Turkish or other language at all.

Turansoyu, dont forget that even the state language of Seljuk turks was NOT Turkish, Ottoman turks did not speak Turkish (Seljuk's official language was Persian and Ottomans had their own language, osmanli language).

Noone is stopping you from reading the translation of the meaning of Noble Qur'an in any language you want, but one thing you should not forget is that translators write what they understand. I dont want to read what translator actually understood, I want to understand what Allah is saying to me. For that reason, I prefer to read Qur'an in Arabic, where I am stuck, I would refer to different translations AND most importantly I would read the tafseer (commentory of the Qur'an) in order to understand it clearer.

If the translation of Quran was enough, why would there be hundreds of translations of Qur'an into Turkish for example and not one version so that everyone could read it? Same goes to translations of quran into Uzbek, Russian, Persian, Urdu and so on.

Those who claim that everyone can understand Qur'an directly contradict to what Allah is saying:


هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ

3.7 . У сенга китобни туширган зотдир. Унда муҳкам оятлар ҳам бор ва улар китобнинг аслидир ва муташобиҳ (оят)лар ҳам бор. Қалбларида ҳидоятдан оғиш борлар фитна мақсадида ва уни таъвил қилиш мақсадида ундан муташобиҳ бўлганига эргашади. Унинг таъвилини Аллоҳдан бошқа ҳеч ким билмас. Илмда собит бўлганлар эса, унга иймон келтирдик, барчаси Раббимиз ҳузуридандир, дерлар. Ва фақат ақл эгаларигина эслайдилар. («Муҳкам» сўзи маҳкам, очиқ-ойдин, бошқа ёққа буриб бўлмайдиган, деган маънони англатади. «Муштабоҳ» сўзи эса, ўхшаш, бирини биридан ажратиш қийин, бир неча маъноларни англатадиган, деган маъноларни билдиради. Қуръони Карим оятлари ҳам муҳкам ва муташобиҳга бўлинади.)
(O, sana Kitab’ı indirendir. Onun (Kur’an’ın) bazı вyetleri muhkemdir, onlar kitabın anasıdır. Diğerleri de mьteşabihdir.4 Kalplerinde bir eğrilik olanlar, fitne зıkarmak ve onun olmadık yorumlarını yapmak iзin mьteşabih вyetlerinin ardına dьşerler. Oysa onun gerзek manasını ancak Allah bilir. İlimde derinleşmiş olanlar, “Ona inandık, hepsi Rabbimiz katındandır” derler. (Bu inceliği) ancak akıl sahipleri dьşьnьp anlar.)
What is mutesabih?
(Mьteşabih вyetler, manasını ve hakikatini sadece Allah’ın bildiği вyetlerdir. Bunların insan zihni tarafından tьmьyle kavranmasına imkan yoktur.)

So Allah is saying that there are some verses that people would not understand and those who try to explain it (do ta'vil) are those who have deviation in their hearts.

The conclusive evidence brought by Akhee-Abdullah shows once and for all that Qur'an, the Holy Book of Allah is in ARABIC and the reast of the translations can only serve for one purpose only, to HELP to understand the meaning and cannot be the means of worship and prayers.

Once on this subject, I would like to make following statement:

Although I agree with most of what Akhee Abdullah is saying, I would like to remind brother Akhee Abdullah not to get too agressive and not to cross the line while trying to explain things. Insults and agression are not the proper way of carrying the da'wah. I hate chauvinism and ultra-nationalism as much as you do but it shouldnt lead to throw insults to those who do not agree with what you are saying.

with regards to Qaradawi, some people respect and follow Qaradawi as much as you respect and follow Sheikh Ibn Baaz, sheikh Albani, Sheikh Uthaymin or shayhul islam Ibn Taymiyya so we must respect our scholars as well. Just the reminder, I hope you dont get it personal.


Assalam alaikum wa rahmatullah,

Akheel kareem jazakum'Allah khairan for a beatiful advice...I wanted to ask you what led you into thinking that I think negatively of Shaikh Qaradawi havizahullah??? We love and do not love for the sake of Allah...if he commands to obey Allah we love him, if he commands otherwise, we disobey him and do not like him on that. Please refer to this, to know my thoughts of some controversies related to Shaikh Qaradawi's (hafizahullah) verdicts: http://forum.arbuz.com/showpost.php?p=728694&postcount=23

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Salafi, It is better to be a Turkist than a Vahabi like u.

Aptalligin gozlerimi kamastirdi ayrica. Sen Arablarin putlara dedigi gibi Ilah de, Eski Misir tanrilarina soyledikleri gibi Rab de, ya da atese tapanlar gibi Huda de. Ne istersen de ama benim ne dedigime karisma tamam?

He is not a Wahhabi...Trust me... : ), trust a "wahhabi" when he says about someone that he is not a "wahhabi" : )

[SmIlIk]

Well, reading Quran in Arabic has no benefit for me. I cannot understand so it is better to use my time for reading its translation. That was the topic actually...

Also, Allah comes from El Ilah. Old Arabs called their totems as Ilah(God in Arabic). Therefore, the name Tanri, Allah, Rab, Huda, God... are all same. All of them were used before Islam for the totems or Pagan gods.

Pardon me, first of all you cannot use turkish in this part of forum. If you want to discuss something, please refer to uzbek, english or russian. Or shall I say arabic? :) If you want to udnerstand Quran in arabic it is your obligation to learn it. Some of us are so lazy, we do not even try to learn it and uderstand. Ignorance is the word for it. Only ignorant people will reject something even without trying to embrace the truth of it.

Why do you learn english/german? To understand charles Dickens? To get a better job? To have a better resume than other turks who do not speak the language? For us most probably learning arabic, or at least try to understand and listen to Quran in arabic might be a challange. But that challange comes with gazillions of rewards besides better resume. If it is too much for you why don't you leave this conversation until you come up with something actually arguable?

If you want to understand something LEARN it. But then some people just might have sixth sense about things :) And believe me God wouldn't give that sense to those who cannot handle it. Read the manual...

[Akhee-Abdullah]

what i can't understand is this:

-you do so that you are a strong believer but you write racist replies and hatred full posts against Oghuz people. Don't you know that hatred toward other people is forbidden?

-you say pan-turkists are Nazis but on the other hand you say we are a mixture nation?

Racist replies??? Come on this is now a new allegation : )...

Please keep in mind I am of Turkic origin, and I speak Uzbek, i.e my mother and father tongue...how could I be racist against my own race?!

If you mean I hate Oghuz people, I have a lot of Oghuz friends in Uzbekistan (Khorezmians) as well I have some friends in Turkey...they have never accused me of that...and a few Turkish gardeshler here in North America...they never accused me of that...

I talked too much about why I do not support nationalism and nazi ideas hidden behind the veil of pan-Turkism...also, let me reiterate again, Uzbekistan and Uzbeks do not support Turkish dominance of Central Asia. We were never one nation historically, we have common history...however as a nation as a state we were not one, and I can explain that by telling you that Uzbeks as an ethnicity did not exist until the 15 th century, we are truly conglomerate of myriad of tribes...you want to learn how to unite Turkic people, come to Uzbekistan you will learn it...

Also, what aches me about Pan-Turkists' ideas, destiny of Tajiks, who usually get dismissed from the conversation because they are not TURKIC...and wide spread belief amongst the Turkish people that Arabs betrayed Islaam and betrayed Turkish people...here in my town we have "Turkish Masjid", "arab masjid", "pakistani masjid", "somali masjid"...I hate this division based on ethnicity...I have observed nationalism in all of those masajid by bigots...however, I have not seen anything close to PAN-TURKIST nationalism...they are crazy, they believe they own the whole world...

You know why I accuse your sect to be tainted by Nazi/Nationalist ideas? Becuase you guys have a strong vision and belief that Turkey is the Big Brother of all Turkic people, and has a job to Unite them and Rule them...Nazis also had a vision to unite all the Aryan people and rule over them against non-aryans...

I tell you what, until you guys do not learn to respect smaller nations than you guys, Uzbeks, Uyghurs, Bashkirds, Karachay, Totor, Bulghar Totoar, Kirghiz, Qazaq and etc...you guys won't be respected by me at all...

Uzbekistan aint Kurdistan to you to bully around...got it? We are Uzbeks...not dependent on you, never were dependent on you, never were really part of you...You have seen what we are capable of...If Allah wills we will go to Istanbul again and teach you guys more lesson, if you continue on your vision Nazism and drift away from the true teachings of Islaam...

Rest In Peace dear Nazi-Pan-Turkists : ) ...cannot understand...why you guys have some much in common with Zionists...and actully state of Turkey was in good terms with Zionist state of Zionists long before some Arab nations agreed to make a temporary peace with the Zionists...unfrotunately, Uzbekis are also in good terms with Zionists, and it has similar reasons as yours, disgust of Islaam preached by Arabs...

[Abu-Hafiza]

Salafi, It is better to be a Turkist than a Vahabi like u.

Aptalligin gozlerimi kamastirdi ayrica. Sen Arablarin putlara dedigi gibi Ilah de, Eski Misir tanrilarina soyledikleri gibi Rab de, ya da atese tapanlar gibi Huda de. Ne istersen de ama benim ne dedigime karisma tamam?

Turansoyu, first of all, as Akhee said, I am not a wahhabi (whatever you mean by that name)

Second of all, speak in the language that everyone understands (most of the users here dont speak Turkish). OK, now, I will try to translate what you said:

Your foolishnes has blinded my eyes. You call Ilah like arabs call their idols, Rab like old Egyptians are calling their gods, Hudo like fire worshipers, say whatever you want but do not intervene to what I said (i hope this is close translation, although I admit that in original language it sounds more true and the translation that I did is not the original and have some mistakes)

So let's us analize point by point:

First of all, I want to bring your own advice:

deliyi arastirsanda arastirmasanda delidir, bu kadar basit
Yakindan tanimadigin biri hakkinda boyle konusmak dogru degil.

http://forum.arbuz.com/showpost.php?p=745789&postcount=50

So act upon your own advice.

Regarding the name of Allah, ilah and Allah are different things. Allah is the name of the Lord of Ibrahim (AS), the name is also used in Torah and Injeel although jews call Allah as Yehweh.

The names of idols are seperate you have to do some reading. The word Rab is the same as Lord and it is NOT the name of idol of egyptians. The word TANRI (it is actually Tengri) is the name of Skygod or Sky Father, why do you use the word Tengri and not the word Ece which is the "Mother Earth"? Learn some more about tengriism before you actually use the name Tengri. Now, when Akhee compares pan-turkism to Nazis, this is what he means, I dont agree with the term but you are proving me wrong and Akhee right :)

Secondly if you claim that Allah and Rab are names of idols you contradict the Creator himself. Allah calls himself ALLAH in many places in Qur'an and Rab as well. So I should believe YOUR WORDS and disregards the words of Allah? Where is your logic?

Thirdly, you still havent answered the question, why did you learn English and did not learn Uzbek, Kyrgyz, Kazakh and so on? If you are a man enough, lest debate in Uzbek, or even better in classical Uzbek?

If you cant answer and only shower the insults then I would advice you to shut up, get locked in your concentration camp called "turkistan forumu" or even better disapear from here alltogether (i think most of uzbeks in this forum will agree)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Turansoyu, first of all, as Akhee said, I am not a wahhabi (whatever you mean by that name)

Second of all, speak in the language that everyone understands (most of the users here dont speak Turkish). OK, now, I will try to translate what you said:

Your foolishnes has blinded my eyes. You call Ilah like arabs call their idols, Rab like old Egyptians are calling their gods, Hudo like fire worshipers, say whatever you want but do not intervene to what I said (i hope this is close translation, although I admit that in original language it sounds more true and the translation that I did is not the original and have some mistakes)

So let's us analize point by point:

First of all, I want to bring your own advice:
http://forum.arbuz.com/showpost.php?p=745789&postcount=50

So act upon your own advice.

Regarding the name of Allah, ilah and Allah are different things. Allah is the name of the Lord of Ibrahim (AS), the name is also used in Torah and Injeel although jews call Allah as Yehweh.

The names of idols are seperate you have to do some reading. The word Rab is the same as Lord and it is NOT the name of idol of egyptians. The word TANRI (it is actually Tengri) is the name of Skygod or Sky Father, why do you use the word Tengri and not the word Ece which is the "Mother Earth"? Learn some more about tengriism before you actually use the name Tengri. Now, when Akhee compares pan-turkism to Nazis, this is what he means, I dont agree with the term but you are proving me wrong and Akhee right :)

Secondly if you claim that Allah and Rab are names of idols you contradict the Creator himself. Allah calls himself ALLAH in many places in Qur'an and Rab as well. So I should believe YOUR WORDS and disregards the words of Allah? Where is your logic?

Thirdly, you still havent answered the question, why did you learn English and did not learn Uzbek, Kyrgyz, Kazakh and so on? If you are a man enough, lest debate in Uzbek, or even better in classical Uzbek?

If you cant answer and only shower the insults then I would advice you to shut up, get locked in your concentration camp called "turkistan forumu" or even better disapear from here alltogether (i think most of uzbeks in this forum will agree)


Good Post eh...!!! (With a french accent)

[Abu-Hafiza]

Akhee, dont get agrrevated, Bakma is not the same as Turansoyu, I think there is just slight missunderstanding between you guys.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Lyalpapapapaao : ) ...ochirib nima qilardiz...

Imom Shofiyga nisbat berishadi shu gappi, 'Agar ahlil baytni sevmoqlikni Rofidiy deyilsa, bilib qoyinglar men unda rofidiyman' deganlaridek...agar Qur'on Wa Sunnatga Rasul'Allah tushuntirgan (sal'Allahu alayhi wassalam), sahobalara tushunib ergashgan, tobeenlar wa atbauttobeenlar ittibo qilgan yulga, Ahlis Sunnatning 4 ta mazhabining boshi, Hanafi mazhabiga ergashishga orzu qilishlikni "Wahhobiylik" deyilsa...shu forumdagilar eshitib olsinlar, wa quloqlariga qurghoshin qilib quyib olsinlar, men kotta emas..., qorin ghamida, ariday ghimillab yurgan kichkinagina "wahhobiyman" : )

Lekin ozimmi hech qachon 'Wahhobiy' demas edim, Hanafiman, Sunniyman, Athariyman, Salfimanman, ahlil hadeethman deb bong ursam ozimga tazkiya berib qoygan bulaman...'kichkinagina' hanafiyman desam adashmagan bulsam..kk...kelinglar mavzuga qaytaylik...

[Abu-Hafiza]

Interesting things about Tengri:

The core beings in Tengriism are Sky-Father (Tengri/Tenger Etseg) and Mother Earth (Eje/Gazar Eej). In history, Chinggis Khan (Gengis Khan), the unifier of the Mongolian nation, based his power on a mandate from Tengri himself, and began all his declarations with the words "by the will of Eternal Blue Heaven." Father Heaven is worshipped for what he is, the timeless and infinite blue sky. He is not visualized as a person, although he is said to have at least two sons.

And this as well:

Tangri or sky god, in ancient Turkish, Altaic and Hun mythology, is a pure, white goose that flies constantly over an endless expanse of water, which represents time. Beneath this water, Ak Ana ("White Mother") calls out to him saying "Create". To overcome his loneliness, Tangri creates Er Kishi, who is not as pure or as white as Tangri and together they set up the world. Er Kishi becomes a demonic character and strives to mislead people and draw them into its darkness. Tangri assumes the name Tangri Ulgen and withdraws into Heaven from which he tries to provide people with guidance through sacred animals that he sends among them. The Ak Tangris occupy the fifth level of Heaven. Shaman priests who want to reach Tangri Ulgen never get further than this level, where they convey their wishes to the divine guides. Returns to earth or to the human level take place in a goose-shaped vessel.

OK, so you want us to believe in this nonsense? turansoyu, you have to review your faith and your beliefs

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Interesting things about Tengri:

The core beings in Tengriism are Sky-Father (Tengri/Tenger Etseg) and Mother Earth (Eje/Gazar Eej). In history, Chinggis Khan (Gengis Khan), the unifier of the Mongolian nation, based his power on a mandate from Tengri himself, and began all his declarations with the words "by the will of Eternal Blue Heaven." Father Heaven is worshipped for what he is, the timeless and infinite blue sky. He is not visualized as a person, although he is said to have at least two sons.

And this as well:

Tangri or sky god, in ancient Turkish, Altaic and Hun mythology, is a pure, white goose that flies constantly over an endless expanse of water, which represents time. Beneath this water, Ak Ana ("White Mother") calls out to him saying "Create". To overcome his loneliness, Tangri creates Er Kishi, who is not as pure or as white as Tangri and together they set up the world. Er Kishi becomes a demonic character and strives to mislead people and draw them into its darkness. Tangri assumes the name Tangri Ulgen and withdraws into Heaven from which he tries to provide people with guidance through sacred animals that he sends among them. The Ak Tangris occupy the fifth level of Heaven. Shaman priests who want to reach Tangri Ulgen never get further than this level, where they convey their wishes to the divine guides. Returns to earth or to the human level take place in a goose-shaped vessel.

OK, so you want us to believe in this nonsense? turansoyu, you have to review your faith and your beliefs

Let him worship the goose "god" : ), and let us worship the Lord, Allah, Robb of all that exist.

[Einstein]

Salafi, It is better to be a Turkist than a Vahabi like u.

Aptalligin gozlerimi kamastirdi ayrica. Sen Arablarin putlara dedigi gibi Ilah de, Eski Misir tanrilarina soyledikleri gibi Rab de, ya da atese tapanlar gibi Huda de. Ne istersen de ama benim ne dedigime karisma tamam?

What language is this? Turaka or Turumsa? maybe Kurdish?
I didn't understand. Please respect the forum rules and write into uzbek, russian or English languages.
Pardon me, first of all you cannot use turkish in this part of forum. If you want to discuss something, please refer to uzbek, english or russian. Or shall I say arabic?..
А куда вообше модератори смотрят?
Давно надо было банить его за умышленное использование нам непонятного языка.
Блин, как же мне эти турки надоели уже…со своими идиотскими шовинистическими понятиями.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

What language is this? Turaka or Turumsa? maybe Kurdish?
I didn't understand. Please respect the forum rules and write into uzbek, russian or English languages.

А куда вообше модератори смотрят?
Давно надо было банить его за умышленное использование нам непонятного языка.
Блин, как же мне эти турки надоели уже…со своими идиотскими шовинистическими понятиями.

Einstein-mi toje Tyurki, ne pravilno tak govorit o nyom...ne vse Tyurki shovinisti...shovinisti vezde, u kajdogo est svoy shovinist...u nas sam znayesh kto : ) bolshoy shovinist i.a.k...on lyubit govorit..."Uzbekistan-gosudarstvo s velikim budushem", gorditsya s palachom Temurom, puskay togda nemtsi gorditsa Gitlerom ...

Uzbeki this and that...vklyuchay perviy kanal uzbekistana...poln s shovinisticheskimi lozungami...ochen pechalno...

[Tabriz_Han]

Akhee_Abdullah
Aziz, myself are Turkic people...we would never promote Arab nationalism, because we are against Arab nationalism as we are against Turkish nationalism. I can very much assure, if someone like you stood up and called for Arab nationalism


What do you define by nationalism? you seem to confuse it with racism, nobody claims Turks are superior to anybody else, Turks are equal in Islam to Arabs that is something some people find hard to accept.
Our language, culture, identity, is equal, there is no force in Islam, infact these aspects are protected and respected.
However, the problem arises when some come along and say, oh you use Turkic words your a nationalist, you speak and want to speak Turkic not Arabic your a nationalist, you don't want to abide by Arab customs your a nationalist.

I have absolutely nothing against Arabs, infact I have so many Arab friends. I wish Arabs would unite, as if Arabs united a large section of the muslim world would be united. Why shouldn't Arabs unite? its not "nationalism" in calling for unity, its logical, they're all Arab but divided by powers who want them weak, who does division help? not Arabs.

Same with Turks, if we unite, if Arabs unite, a large section of muslim world will have unity then can build ties.



Akhee_Abdullah
The Word Allah, اﷲ, means The DEITY, it does not mean Sky God, Heaven God, Geese (Birds) : ), Ancestors' Spirit, Angel to be Worshipped (Khuda)


Etymology - The English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language) word "deity" derives from the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) "deus," ("God"). Related are words for "sky": the Latin "dies" ("day") and "divum" ("open sky"), and the Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) "div," "diu" ("sky," "day," "shine"). Also related are "divine" and "divinity," from the Latin "divinus," from "divus." The English word "God" comes from the Anglo-Saxon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_language), and similar words are found in many Germanic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_language) (e.g. the German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language) "Gott" — "God").


Kok Tanri is Sky God, Tanri is just God, there is only one God. People in different languages may use different names, its worshipping and trying to live by Allah laws which is important.





Akhee_Abdullah
As you read in this ayah, the pagans did not worship idols because they believed that there were many main gods, no rather they DID believe, there was One Supreme Deity, and they did believe by worshipping the "daughters of Allah" they would be close to Allah, this is same as seeing many Turks going and worshipping the grave of Abdil Qadir Jilani, Jalaluddin Rumi, Naqshabandi (May Allah forgive them) and others who worked for and served the Muslims. We observe the same argument from those who ask those dead people in the grave saying, "These are holy people, close to God, they hear our calls, and could intercede on our behalf with God", this practice is unfortunately widespread amongst the Turkic people and the people of Indian Subcontinent...



Going to forefathers tombs is not bad.
However, praying to them won't help, there is only one Allah.

However, calling this "idol" worship is wrong, its not idolatory, its ancestor worship.





Akhee_Abdullah
Pan-Turkists are one of the greatest threats to the Islaamic ummah, because they are dividing the ummah based on blood, race, i.e Turkicness...


In my opinion its completely the opposite.
A union of Turkic states is actually good for the muslim world, a large section of it will be united, there will be more stability, stronger ties can be built with the Indian Sub-continant and other muslim regions in the region.


before, knowing Islaam, I used to be a huge supporter for the unity of Turkic nations...then I had conversations with several people, which shed light to me that, actually Pan-Turkism is an attemt by Turkey to increase its sphere of influence on the other Turkic nations...

Before knowing about Turkic unity, I thought it was some evil awfull unspeakable thing, I was even scared to say the word Turk, Russians were so against it to the extent it was taboo.

Then I thought to my-self, why does everyone else call us Turks except Russians? why are Russians ruling lands of regions of Turks? why do they try to hard to make me hate other Turks?

It dawned on me, will I be a puppet of the Russians and just for their interests and convenience reject my Turkic brothers and sisters or will I stand against their wishes and not go along with their ideas.

The idea of Turkic unity can be traced back to the Gok-Turks, Timurids, Ozbek Khan.

In the wake of Russian threat against Turkic regions, many intellects like Sultan Galiev, Yusuf Akcura, Mirza Feth Ali Ahundzade, Cholpan were not from Turkiye. Infact the greatest backer of Pan-Turkism was AbdulHamid II Khan who was also the greatest backer of Pan-Islamism, just like Akcura and others they saw no conflict between the two. A strong Turkic unity and union of states means that Islam can survive in such a region and this would be a benefit to the muslim world.




Akhee-Abdullah
I am absolutely convinced, Turkish people would not accept Uzbeks to Rule the Turkic nations...Because, it is the intent of Turkish to rule other Turkic people...that also proves that these Pan-Turkists contradict themselves....They do not want to really unite Turks, rather they Want to Unite and Rule all the Turkic people.


Qardesh, this is what I used to think but its has no basis.

To somebody who fully understands and supports a Turkic union of states it doesnt matter if the leader is Ozbek, Turkmen, Kazak...these terms don't matter in their mindset because we are all TURKS, as were all Turks it doesnt matter if Ozbek is a ruler or Azeri because were all brothers, were all the equal, there is no older-younger brother, there is just Turk.

The idea of a union of Turkic states, is not an "imperialist" or ambition to start some Empire. I'm totally against such ideas.
What is being promoted is, the 7 Turkic states which already exist today, form a pollitical frame in which they form a unity. Countries stay the same but we work together, boost our economy, strategic strenght and stability.

Its a union of states to benefit these states, we have resources, land, water and huge potential. However, this can be a disadvantage if we are to be used and exploited. Only if we work together and stand strong can we form the strength needed to stand strong, for the region to benefit and people to prosper.




Akhee-Abdullah
Turkic tribes were NEVER historically united. Rather historically they always FOUGHT EACH OTHER...Uzbeks were never really friends with Oghuz Turks...Rather, just remind them of Amir Temur and the humiliation of Bayazid, the blood of Turkish people boil...: )


This is historically incorrect.

Turkic tribes always formed unions and united and also had wars.

Examples of Unions.

Gok-Turks
Karakhanids
Timurids

Also, why would the victory of Timur make anybodies blood boil? he was a Turk, infact "Basbug", you do realise that Timur won the war because the Turks, the Turk beys and their armies joined Timur because he gave importance to Turks and they felt that Bayazid at the time didn'.t

In addition to this Ozbeks were always friends of Oguz Turks, its Timurids who were always enemies of Ozbeks. You do realise that Ozbek Khan, defeated the Timurids and expelled them to India.

The Ozbeks were allies of the Ottomans as was Babur, Ottoman generals trained Baburs troops.



Akhee-Abdullah
Also, let me tell you, Mr. Pan-Turkist, Uzbeks have more in Common with Mongolians than the Oghuz Turks (except uzbeks of Khorazm, they are actully, oghuz people)...Kipchak and Qarluq Turkic tribes kicked ancestor's A$$ so hard that Seljuqi Empire of your Ancestors crumbled and fell into the hands of Karakhanis : )...since that day you guys were exiled from Central Asia : )...well let me correct myself...there was another Oghuz Empire which lasted longer, Khorazm-Shahs, they defeated Karakhanids...however, my great grand father Chingiz-Khan, came and kicked the last Khorazm-Shah's A$$ so hard that, no more Oghuz Dominance was left : )...the Age of Uzbeks really started : )...


Again, historically totally incorrect.

The Karakhanid Turks formed a great civillisation, however it was destroyed by the Mongols as was the Khorazm-shahs.

Then, Amir Timur, finally got rid of the Mongol dominance and toppled their power.

The age of Ozbeks did not begin after Khorazm-Shah's, the Mongols did, then Ilkhanids, then Timurids and then Ozbeks.

Kipchak's of Crimea, Astrakan, Kazan, Kafkas joined the Ottomans and became part of their Empire.


This is history, Turks have been allies and had wars with each other. However, in example to say, Europeans who had never been allies and killed more of each other than anybody else anywhere else are today united and its them who are benefitting.

There is no reason why Turks cannot aswell :cool:

[Tabriz_Han]

Akhee-Abdullah
Finally, as a good gesture...let me remind you that on the day of Judgment Allah will speak to people in ARABIC, not in your broken dialect of Turkic!!!


Oh really...


[O humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know and deal with each other in kindness (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God (is he who is) the most righteous of you, and God is Knower, Aware.] (Al-Hujurat 49:13)

Where is your evidence that Allah speaks "Arabic" :rolleyes:
If that's the case 90% of humans will not understand anything and everyones going to Cehennem :rolleyes:

And you said you were against Arab nationalism, this sounds similarly like the arguements of the Ummayeds who are forefathers rose agaisnt and the great scholors like Maturidi, Hanefi, Yesevi denounced.



Akhee-Abdullah
Yes, the residents of paradise in the company of their prophet Muhammad sal'Allahu alayhi wassalam will converse with each other in Arabic...I am not praising Arab people...


Yes you are, Arabic is Holy and so are Arabs.
Heck, a Jewish, Christian or Pagan Arab has more chance after death than we do according to you...



Akhee-Abdullah
My Turkish friend...open your eyes...do not live in illusion...Iysa alayhissalam will fight the Dajjal and he is of Ishaq alayhissalam, Mahdi will be ARAB...


Any proof?

be proud if Turks end up being foot soldiers to be fighting for the cause of Islaam, this the greatest honor to the Turks, if you only understood!!!


All I've understood from your outburst is.
Its an Arab religion, Arabs are holy, Allah only speaks Arabic, only Arabs will save the world, all we can do is worship Arabs...



Akhee-Abdullah
Those Turks who took Istaanbul were not brainwashed Pan-Turkists like you, they were Muslims


Yeah, that's why they created the idea of "Qizil Alma" ;)
They were muslim Turks, they didn't make Arabic the language of the land instead Turkic, they were led by Yesevi-Bektashi dervishes and wise teachers from Turkiston. There aim was to unify the Turks of there land and they were muslim aswell.



Akhee-Abdullah
Sometimes, I even suspect you guys are Turkic honestly...Blond hair, white skin...may be children of those widow Greeks :


Even if some are, what does it matter? it would only matter if your a racist :(
Also it could be Kuman/Kipchak Turks, in Arabia, if you have lighter hair your called a Turk because alot of Kuman Turks had lighter features than Arabs.

[Tabriz_Han]

What great muslim spirit, the self-confessed muslims are giving here, really you should be proud, insulting people whose views differ to yours, calling Arab nationalism Islam, claiming Allah speaks only Arabic, that pagan Arabs have more a chance after death than the rest of the world just cos they speak Arabic.

Were all Turks whether we like it or not, its something we cannot change, were also muslim.

However, the ignorance of some people is trully shocking, hopefully we can learn to debate and stop being so "jahil".

Open your eyes and look at the muslim world today.
Then look at the muslim world of our forefathers.

Instead of being denial I like to be open, I'm ashamed :(

Insallah, the Turkic states will form a union, the Arab states will form a union, we can stand on our feet and start becomming stronger again.

Don't you realise as things stand, there will never be a muslim unity.
Palestinians are killing each other, Arabs in Iraq are slaughtering each other.
There can only be unity, once we as nations unite and stand strong then we will be natural allies anyway. Today, the puppet masters don't even allow Arabs to be ally of Arabs forget other's...

[Einstein]

Einstein-mi toje Tyurki, ne pravilno tak govorit o nyom...ne vse Tyurki shovinisti...shovinisti vezde, u kajdogo est svoy shovinist...u nas sam znayesh kto : ) bolshoy shovinist i.a.k...on lyubit govorit..."Uzbekistan-gosudarstvo s velikim budushem", gorditsya s palachom Temurom, puskay togda nemtsi gorditsa Gitlerom ...

Uzbeki this and that...vklyuchay perviy kanal uzbekistana...poln s shovinisticheskimi lozungami...ochen pechalno...

Ну я же не говорил что все турки шовинисты.
...эти турки...-Тут я имел ввиду болшинство наших турецких форумчан.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Ну я же не говорил что все турки шовинисты.
-Тут я имел ввиду болшинство наших турецких форумчан.

Polnosty soglasen..eishtein...pravilno govoryat ti je yest geniy u nas : )

[Abu-Hafiza]

What great muslim spirit, the self-confessed muslims are giving here, really you should be proud, insulting people whose views differ to yours, calling Arab nationalism Islam, claiming Allah speaks only Arabic, that pagan Arabs have more a chance after death than the rest of the world just cos they speak Arabic.

Were all Turks whether we like it or not, its something we cannot change, were also muslim.

However, the ignorance of some people is trully shocking, hopefully we can learn to debate and stop being so "jahil".

Open your eyes and look at the muslim world today.
Then look at the muslim world of our forefathers.

Instead of being denial I like to be open, I'm ashamed :(

Insallah, the Turkic states will form a union, the Arab states will form a union, we can stand on our feet and start becomming stronger again.

Don't you realise as things stand, there will never be a muslim unity.
Palestinians are killing each other, Arabs in Iraq are slaughtering each other.
There can only be unity, once we as nations unite and stand strong then we will be natural allies anyway. Today, the puppet masters don't even allow Arabs to be ally of Arabs forget other's...

Tabriz, first of all noone is saying that pagan arabs, christians or jews have more chances then turks. Noone is even claiming that arabs have more chances then non-arabs. All of us know that nationality and nationalism has no effect to your well-being in day of judgement. The things that Akhee said should not be taken out of context and understood upon the nature of his replies. He was saying what he was saying because he (as well as me) is sick from ultra pan-turkish nonsense (please note, I am not saying that pan turkism is nonsense but ultra pan turkism IS nonsense) of Tuyransoyu. On his later posts he clarefied his position. He is Turkic, uzbek, muslim and NOT nationalist and doesnt hate any other nations.

But turansoyu's ideas are the ideas of Yasar Nuri Ozturk who is considered to be heretic by ALL of the muslims (arabs, turks, bengalis, malasiyans and so on). The idea of turkish prayers, turkish azan, turkish quran and dismissing Prophet himself is stupid nonsense. Noone has any problems of Turkic union but what Akhee is stressing is that in his view (and in mine) it should not be limited to that. Union should be far greater and if turkic union is the first step, then let be it.

But that union should not be under the banner of tengriism or one nation being superior to the other.

The topic here is that Qur'an should be recited in Arabic only and translations are only good to HELP understanding the meaning.

Here is good article that is relevant to the topic:

http://www.quran.org.uk/out.php?LinkID=57

I hope this clarefies the issue