The Arab-Israeli conflict: your opinions.... [Archive] - Uzbekistan Online Forum

sm1

05-05-2002, 04:57 PM

I agree that there is a blame to be placed on Arafat, but not for not agreeing. Clinton's Camp David was not fair for palestinians, they were not given Jerusalem. what israel did is occupaed villigaies near to Jerusalem and called them Jerusalem and wanted to "give" it back to Palestine calling it "concessions". What he should be blamed for is for NOT continiung negotiations, but going with intifada.

below some facts obtained from searchforjustice.org

Jerusalem
The information below, and all quotes, unless noted, are largely based on "Jerusalem: Injustice in the Holy City," a report issued in Spring 2000 by B'Tselem - The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories.

Jerusalem and Human Rights

Before the 1967 War, Israeli West Jerusalem covered 38 square kilometers. Arab East Jerusalem, ruled by Jordan and including the Old City, consisted of only 6 square kilometers. Following the War, Israel annexed 70 square kilometers, mostly land from West Bank villages like Beit Hanna and Um Tuba, villages most Israelis have never heard of.

In many cases villages and neighborhoods were divided in two. Agricultural lands belonging to villages were in some cases annexed to Jerusalem, while the villages remained in the West Bank.

Most Palestinians in Israeli-occupied Jerusalem chose to take residency permits, rejecting Israeli citizenship. While East Jerusalem Palestinians enjoy certain benefits such as health insurance, "in practice they are subject to discriminatory laws and policies intended to curb the growth of the Palestinian population in East Jerusalem."

Jerusalem's population in mid-2000 is 646,000, of which about 31 percent is Arab. This percentage is likely to climb higher given the greater birth rate among Arabs. Since Israel seeks to keep the Arab percentage below 30 percent, some Israeli leaders are considering a trade-off whereby Israel annexes Jewish settlements in and near East Jerusalem and allows the Palestinian Authority to take over Arab sectors of much or all of East Jerusalem.

In the Old City, an area of one square kilometer, Jews make up only nine percent of the population of 32,000.

Of the 70 square kilometers annexed to Jerusalem after 1967, 24.5 were expropriated, mostly from individual Arab landowners. This expropriated land has been used "exclusively for the benefit of the Jewish population."

Israel allows Palestinians to build on only 7 percent of East Jerusalem, land which is already mostly filled with Palestinian neighborhoods. In East Jerusalem, on expropriated Arab land, there are some 43,000 Jewish homes and not a single Arab home. By contrast, in all of East Jerusalem there are 28,000 Palestinian homes. Despite a housing shortage among Palestinians exceeding 20,000 units, Palestinians, who comprise 30 percent of the population of municipal Jerusalem, were allowed to build only about 7.5 percent of the homes built during the years 1990-1997.

Much of the land adjoining Palestinian neighborhoods has been put off limits for Palestinians. Palestinians are denied permits to build on this land - even on land they own, including land adjacent to an existing home. It is also difficult even to obtain permits to expand existing homes. While both Palestinians and Israelis build illegally, Palestinians are responsible for less than 20 percent of illegal construction, but nearly two-thirds of demolitions are of Palestinian homes. During 1992-2000, Israel demolished 198 Palestinian homes.

Amnesty International, in its 1999 Report, "Demolition and Dispossession: The Destruction of Palestinian Homes," notes that while the number of homes demolished in any year is "large," it is small compared with the number "which are at any time issued with a demolition order and under threat of demolition." Amnesty believes that perhaps 12,000 homes in East Jerusalem, housing over a third of the Arab population, live under demolition orders.

Amnesty concludes that Israel has a policy of "land confiscation from private Palestinian ownership which is then used exclusively for Israeli development."

Since 1995, Palestinians who have lived for a time outside of Jerusalem, for whatever reasons, have been liable to lose their residency status. Between 1995 and 1999, over 3,000 Palestinians lost their right to live in Jerusalem, in what B'Tselem calls a "quiet deportation." The Barak government has suspended this practice at this time. Meanwhile, the National Insurance Institute has subjected all Palestinian residents to arbitrary investigations which have resulted in withdrawal of health insurance from Palestinians, including thousands of children.

.

sm1

05-05-2002, 04:58 PM

Methods used to encourage Palestinians to leave Jerusalem (the "quiet deportation") have included: withdrawal of residency permits and health insurance; expropriation of land; demolition of housing; denying family reunification; creating a severe housing shortage; and neglecting basic services.

Although 30 percent of the population, Palestinians benefit from only 9 percent of the 1999 Jerusalem Development Budget. In Jerusalem, Jews have 36 swimming pools, Palestinians none. Jews have 26 libraries; Palestinians have two. "Entire neighborhoods are not hooked up to a sewer system, without paved roads or sidewalks."

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza have difficulty obtaining permits to enter Jerusalem, a city which is the center of religious, cultural, and economic life for West Bank Palestinians. So in the year 2000, millions of Christians from around the world are able to visit Jerusalem, but Palestinian Christians living a few kilometers away find it difficult, if not impossible, to visit their holy city.

Veteran Israeli journalist Danny Rubinstein writes that for the past decade "most Muslims from the West Bank and Gaza have not been permitted [by Israel] to pray at Al-Aqsa" mosque in Jerusalem. "There has not been a single case in which a Muslim from Gaza requesting a permit to pray in Jerusalem has received one." (Ha'aretz, October 2, 2000.)

Jerusalem and International Law

Under the UN partition Plan of 1947, Jerusalem was to be internationalized. During the 1948 War, Israel and Jordan seized, respectively, West and East Jerusalem. The Old City was held by Jordan. Both nations were in violation of the Partition Plan and international law, but both ignored the international community.

The 200,000 or so Jewish settlers who have moved into East Jerusalem since Israel occupied the area in 1967 are in violation of international law. The Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 49), states that "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transport parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." Both Israel and the United States have signed the Geneva Convention.

The UN Security Council, in numerous resolutions, and the International Committee of the Red Cross, have reaffirmed the applicability of the Geneva Convention to the lands, including Arab East Jerusalem, occupied by Israel in 1967.

The Security Council has repeatedly deplored and declared null and void Israeli actions in East Jerusalem which have changed the demographic composition and physical character of East Jerusalem.

The European Union, in October 1996, stated: "East Jerusalem is subject to the principles set out in UN Security Council Resolution 242, notably the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force."

On November 3, 1996, British Foreign Secretary Malcolm Rifkind stated: "All the Jewish settlements - the Jewish settlements in the occupied territories - are illegal and, therefore, should not continue."

The Vatican remains opposed to Israeli actions. In 1998, Vatican Foreign Minister Jean-Louis Tauran repeated this position: "East Jerusalem is illegally occupied."

Only Costa Rica and El Salvador have moved their embassies from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. That means, almost no government has recognized Israeli control over even West Jerusalem - seized in 1948.

Israeli policy in occupied East Jerusalem violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (signed by Israel and the US), namely:

Denial of equal protection under the law (Article 7)
Arbitrary arrest, detention, or exile (Article 9)
Denial of the right to return to one's country (Article 13)
Arbitrary expropriation of personal property (Article 17)
Interference with religious worship and observance (Article 18)

In 1999, 1,100 religious leaders in the US called on the US government to support a peace which "recognizes the unique religious significance of Jerusalem and gives equal national status to Israelis and Palestinians in a shared, undivided Jerusalem." In 2000, 300 American Rabbis, in a statement circulated by the Jewish Peace Lobby, called for a shared Jerusalem.

Responding to Recent Events

Below are talking points on current controversies and developments. These talking points are intended to help people communicate with the media and Congress as well as with religious and human rights groups, among others. For more detailed information see Resources and Links, Fact Sheets.

sm1

05-05-2002, 04:59 PM

Palestinian Refugees

The rights of Palestinian refugees is an issue which involves close to two thirds of the Palestinian people. Israel has denied the refugees their rights and their exile is, arguably, the root cause of the entire 52-year old Arab-Israeli conflict.

Israeli policy of first forcing out Palestinians and then refusing to allow them to return is clearly a case of "ethnic cleansing."

Under Israel's "Law of Return" any Jew anywhere is able to move to Israel. Hence one ethnic group was moved out and another has moved in.

It is practical and feasible to allow back large numbers of refugees. According to one Arab researcher, the return of refugees would be facilitated by the fact that 78 percent of Israelis live on only 14 percent of Israel's land. Only 22 percent of Israelis live on the remaining 86 percent of Israeli land, most of which belonged to the refugees.

The Right of Return is supported by Amnesty International, the Episcopal Church (USA), and over 1,100 US religious leaders.

More than 50 years after the holocaust, Jews are fighting for and receiving compensation for personal suffering and material losses. Palestinians deserve similar compensation.

Jerusalem
The future of Jerusalem is considered by the media and the US, rightly or wrongly, to have been the issue which caused the collapse of the Camp David talks.

Israel's denial of self-determination to 200,000 Palestinians in Arab East Jerusalem is a violation of international law and the human rights of the Palestinians.

President Clinton's claim (echoed by much of the media) that Ehud Barak was more willing to compromise over Jerusalem than was Yassir Arafat, ignores the fact that Israel is violating UN resolutions condemning Israeli policy in East Jerusalem. While Barak offers Palestinians control over Arab villages just outside Jerusalem, he asks Palestinians to accept the illegal annexation of Palestinian lands inside Jerusalem and Israeli control of non-Jewish holy places.

Israel's treatment of Palestinians since 1967 demonstrates Israel's inability to treat non-Jews fairly. Since 1967, Jerusalem's history has been, according to B'Tselem, Israel’s leading human rights group, "a history of dispossession, systematic discrimination, and a consistent assault on the dignity and basic rights of the Palestinian residents of the city."

Religious leaders in the US have consistently supported settlement of the Jerusalem issue in ways which protect the rights of both peoples and all three faiths, solutions which must be based on justice and not a settlement resulting from the superior force - and hence, superior negotiating position - of an Israel backed by the economic, military, and diplomatic power of the US.

Barak's "compromises" are akin to Party A taking the home of Party B and then offering to return a bedroom or two, provided party B recognizes the right of Party A to keep the rest of the house.

Arafat had already made the biggest concessions by not insisting on Palestinian control of West Jerusalem (illegally occupied by Israel in 1948) and by, if press accounts are correct, showing a willingness to allow Israel to incorporate large settlement blocs, illegally built in East Jerusalem on Palestinian land, into Isr

sm1

05-05-2002, 05:19 PM

Historic injustice happend to Palestinians. Europe and U.S. decided to establish an Israel but no1 asked palestinians about it. Can you imagine some1 decides that part of your house belong to somebody else and transfer it without even talking to you! Europe that felt guilty after WWII for Nazi treatment of Jews decided to "repair" it guilt by establishing Israel. but instead of establishing it somewhere in Europe, which would be logical, they transferred their own collony. Now europeans support palestinians because they will guilt for them. so stupid if you think about.

referee

05-06-2002, 05:16 AM

stud (May 05, 2002 15:48):
again a biased, pro-palestinian position.

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It's hard to come up with an unbiased position in regard with such injustice; it's only in nature you find balanced and symmatric relations between objects - in a human society it nearly doesn't exist! Human bias should be towards justice, that what commands me.

Whom do you refer with "we" when talking about sending arms to palestinians?
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I refer to the civilised nations of this planet!

It's fact, that Israel has been targeting primarily members of terrorists organizations, groups like al-fatah, hezbolla etc., what you cannot say about palestinians blowing up innocent civilians.

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That what they military say on CNN, but if you ask ordinary Palestinians they will laugh with anger at you! Firstly, not all Palestinians commit terrorist acts, as you imply, it's only org-ns like Hamas etc., so, you can't say that whole Palestinian nation is enaged in that! Secondly, even if militants blew only Israeli military and settlers, Israel would consider them as terrorists. Thirdly, it's naive to think that Israel targets only terrorist org-ns, I won't go much into detail just remind you of massacre in Jenin (Israel did all it could not to allow UN inspectors there), and many more deaths of Palestinian women and children - that is terrorism as well!
The bottom-line is that for Israel every Palestinian is a potential terrorist , and for Palestinians every Israeli is a potential military murderer (in Israel nearly all men and many women are reservists).

What about bringing those terrorists to justice? singling out Israel for crimes and leaving palestinians on the loose show a biased, partial approuch to the problem.
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Let me remind you that many Palestinian 'terrorists' are in the Israeli prisons, fled, assasined or were in Palestinian jails before Israel bombed them. Can you name any Israeli soldier or officer who was tried for criminal felon while on service?? Israel reserves the right for immunity for its military, you should know it! It's only in Israel can a general boast on TV that he personally 'crushed the sculp of Palestinian prisoners by a stone' and then be successfully appointed to a senior gov-t post afterwards!

In this problem, giving one side right, another wrong will not make sence. It has little to do with Uzbekistan, from this point of view it's better not to get involved in this complex problem.

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here you are wrong! justice is important in every corner of the universe! Palestinian nation should have their state on their land, this illegal occupation and apartheid should be stopped, and equally important that Israeli civilians should feel secure, but i'm confident that once Palestinians get their rightly-claimed land back, Israelis will have their peace.

stud

05-06-2002, 03:58 PM

referee (May 06, 2002 05:16):
stud (May 05, 2002 15:48):
again a biased, pro-palestinian position.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's hard to come up with an unbiased position in regard with such injustice; it's only in nature you find balanced and symmatric relations between objects - in a human society it nearly doesn't exist! Human bias should be towards justice, that what commands me.

Whom do you refer with "we" when talking about sending arms to palestinians?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I refer to the civilised nations of this planet!

It's fact, that Israel has been targeting primarily members of terrorists organizations, groups like al-fatah, hezbolla etc., what you cannot say about palestinians blowing up innocent civilians.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
That what they military say on CNN, but if you ask ordinary Palestinians they will laugh with anger at you! Firstly, not all Palestinians commit terrorist acts, as you imply, it's only org-ns like Hamas etc., so, you can't say that whole Palestinian nation is enaged in that! Secondly, even if militants blew only Israeli military and settlers, Israel would consider them as terrorists. Thirdly, it's naive to think that Israel targets only terrorist org-ns, I won't go much into detail just remind you of massacre in Jenin (Israel did all it could not to allow UN inspectors there), and many more deaths of Palestinian women and children - that is terrorism as well!
The bottom-line is that for Israel every Palestinian is a potential terrorist , and for Palestinians every Israeli is a potential military murderer (in Israel nearly all men and many women are reservists).

What about bringing those terrorists to justice? singling out Israel for crimes and leaving palestinians on the loose show a biased, partial approuch to the problem.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me remind you that many Palestinian 'terrorists' are in the Israeli prisons, fled, assasined or were in Palestinian jails before Israel bombed them. Can you name any Israeli soldier or officer who was tried for criminal felon while on service?? Israel reserves the right for immunity for its military, you should know it! It's only in Israel can a general boast on TV that he personally 'crushed the sculp of Palestinian prisoners by a stone' and then be successfully appointed to a senior gov-t post afterwards!

In this problem, giving one side right, another wrong will not make sence. It has little to do with Uzbekistan, from this point of view it's better not to get involved in this complex problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

here you are wrong! justice is important in every corner of the universe! Palestinian nation should have their state on their land, this illegal occupation and apartheid should be stopped, and equally important that Israeli civilians should feel secure, but i'm confident that once Palestinians get their rightly-claimed land back, Israelis will have their peace.

first of all I have never said "all Palestinians commit terrorist acts",
secondly your example with CNN and ordinary palestinians (blind with hate on jews) is a weak argument. It's kind of bringing arguments - "ask ordinary israelis, they will laugh with anger at you".

what you wrote is nothing else but support for palestinians and blaim on Israel for crimes. You claim to be commanded by "justice", at the same time forgetting, that "justice" is a very relative notion - e.g. a palestinian terrorist blowing up innocent civilians or criminal maniak also claims to be commanded by "justice". As you see "justice" for someone can be considered as unjustice by others. So you cannot claim justice to be with you. Besides, I think you like yourself too much, if you think you speak for "civilised nations of planet" ;)

and please no retoric with "justice in every corner of planet" story, noone questions about importance of justice everywhere. In my previous massage i stressed upon practice of international relations, where every nation defines its politics depending on its national interests. It was concluded from progmatical point of view, there was no good for Uzbekistan to get involved in this issue.

regards

Lamer

05-06-2002, 06:02 PM

ya voshe malo znayu pro etot konflikt i tolko ne davno bil prosveshen turkom, ne znayu naskoko tam bias bil, poka ya neytralen po etomu voprosu. v ferghana.ru nashel statyu, vot pochitayte vi toje,

http://www.voskres.ru/taina/duke.htm

referee

05-07-2002, 05:52 AM

stud (May 06, 2002 15:58):
[quote]referee (May 06, 2002 05:16):
[quote]stud (May 05, 2002 15:48):
again a biased, pro-palestinian position.

first of all I have never said "all Palestinians commit terrorist acts",

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you didn't say 'all' but your quoting of Palestinians blowing up Israelis implied that, so just try to be specific then.

secondly your example with CNN and ordinary palestinians (blind with hate on jews) is a weak argument. It's kind of bringing arguments - "ask ordinary israelis, they will laugh with anger at you".

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Here again comes your unspecific argument: I never said 'Jews', I stated Palestinians' opinion of the occupation by the Israel. Here, I make distinction between Jews and Israeli state or Israeli gov-t! The same would apply to Israelis; many Israelis want to stop occupation but they are in a minority in that country.

what you wrote is nothing else but support for palestinians and blaim on Israel for crimes.

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Wrong, I support not Palestinians per se but the idea that injustice comitted towrds Palestinians should stop.
I do blame though Israel for crimes against humanity but so do many International organisation who uphold humanitarian rights. I also denounce terrorist acts towards civilians by Palestinian militants but I realise that that terrorism (and support for it) can only be ended after 'hard questions' are addressed.

You claim to be commanded by "justice", at the same time forgetting, that "justice" is a very relative notion - e.g. a palestinian terrorist blowing up innocent civilians or criminal maniak also claims to be commanded by "justice". As you see "justice" for someone can be considered as unjustice by others. So you cannot claim justice to be with you.

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Bravo, you got to the point you've come up with the idea that such a contested notion as JUSTICE can not be completely objective and universal - sorry, i assumed that you had been aware of such simple facts of life, therefore, didn't really emphasise the point...
Well, I can't possibly say that 'justice is with me' but I can say that my position to what the justice is as such....
And in our case, I say that my perception of justice is line with the view that Israelis got their state on Palestinians' land several decades ago, and it's high time that Palestinians had their state established at least in the territories occupied by Israel in 1967!

Besides, I think you like yourself too much, if you think you speak for "civilised nations of planet" ;)

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well, i wouldn't think of myself being part one of the uncivilised nations of the planet of Earth, would you think of yourself that way? It seems not to be an issue of my 'self-obsession' but maybe of your self-underappreciation.

And again, I am not 'speaking for' the civilised nations (it's in Bush's jurisdiction), I was suggesting what international community should be doing to improve the injustice around the world.

and please no retoric with "justice in every corner of planet" story, noone questions about importance of justice everywhere. In my previous massage i stressed upon practice of international relations, where every nation defines its politics depending on its national interests. It was concluded from progmatical point of view, there was no good for Uzbekistan to get involved in this issue.

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I thought we were not speaking about national interests of Uzb-n in here, we are discussing the case of Arab-Israeil conflict. And, our opinions expressed in the forum will hardly constitute a framework of Uzb national and foreign policy unless one of us is a president of Uzb-n :)

Our debates don't have to be on the level of high shattle diplomacy, it's just an exchange of views....

regards

tokiec

05-09-2002, 12:55 AM

the Justice is - triumph of the objective and undeniable truth.

referring to the article Palestinians deserve compensation from Israeli government for all humiliations they suffered from as well as Jews for "Holokost".

it is my opinion also.

tokiec

NoOffence

05-10-2002, 07:14 PM

Very well coverage here.
Highly recommended.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/khodr60.html

Pax

05-11-2002, 11:08 AM

CHUVAK (May 05, 2002 15:58):
arafat tupica vse isportil..

Iz za bezdarnogo lidera i pogibaut deti. nado bilo sebya po umu vesti kogda jews otdavali 90% zemli zavaevannoi v voine 1967 itd itp. vremya ushlo

http://www.agentura.ru/opponent/conflict/
http://www.agentura.ru/opponent/conflict/udavka/budjet/
http://www.agentura.ru/opponent/conflict/udavka/europa/

kogda jews otdavali 90% zemli
kakie oni, yevrei odnako shedrye... :)
A tupica ne tot kto boretsya protiv OKKUPANTOV, a tot kto ne ponimaet, ili ne hochet ponimat' etogo.

Ya, mlya, kak ne stoyal by na storone kogda den' za dnem' stroyntsya evreisskie poseleniya ne v samom Izraile a v Palestinskih territoriyah, kotorye yakoby Izrail priznal v itoge Oslovskih soglasheniy.

I dumayu kajdyy mujchina postupil by takje!

Pax

05-11-2002, 11:41 AM

stud (May 05, 2002 15:48):

again a biased, pro-palestinian position.

Whom do you refer with "we" when talking about sending arms to palestinians?

It's fact, that Israel has been targeting primarily members of terrorists organizations, groups like al-fatah, hezbolla etc., what you cannot say about palestinians blowing up innocent civilians.

1) So, stud, you call a sympathy for people who suffer invasion sponsored by well-know western countries, again a biased, pro-palestinian position?

2) Terrorists??? Who are the terrorists by your definiton?

3) It's true that innocent civilians civilians are blown up. But, these innocent civilians are responsible to know what the fuss is all about, aren't they? If they they learn NOT, should bear the consequences.
They should have known in advance that the new-comers are not welcome there.

Pax

05-11-2002, 11:56 AM

Here is a schedule of the vicitims of the current Intifadah.

Year 2000
Month-------------Palestinians-------------Israeli
10______________140_____________10
11______________125_____________20
12______________63______________7
Year 2001
Month
1_______________22______________6
2_______________25______________12
3_______________42______________7
4_______________45______________6
5_______________52______________22
6_______________26______________34
7_______________49______________8
8_______________47______________32
9_______________70______________10
10______________90______________12
11______________48______________12
12______________74______________43

Year 2002
Month
1_______________45______________17
2_______________99______________27
3_______________174_____________60

tokiec

05-13-2002, 04:35 AM

USA plohoy sud'ya, on doljen dat' penal'ty izrailyu chtobi sravnyat' schyot

weezer

05-31-2002, 04:15 PM

In my opinion, all Israilies in other words jews people are to blame for all those crimes and conflicts in the Middle East.
As far as i'm concerned, these ****ing jewish people are trying to shit where they eat. Remember? During the WW-II most of 'em were destroyed by Hitler, they even didn't have their land and they were not acceptable as a nation. Finally, back in 1949, UN and some other countries decided to give them a little land in the Middle East and it was done exactly where and how they wanted. Then, they announced themselves as a great nation and started attacking their neighboring countries and taking over their holy lands including Jordan, Syria and Palestain.

So who is the terrorist here? Still Muslims????

ShumBOLA

06-17-2002, 01:24 AM

stud Oh so it is a war? Yeah, uhu stones vs guns, suicide bombers vs tanks, right?
As to your statement referring to incidents of babies death calling "accidental" i have to object. For mistakes happen rarely and the death toll of palestinian babies wouldn't have been in hundreds. Oh, let me guess were those babies who were accurately sniped strapped with explosives??? or did Israel fear that they would grow up and become next suicide bombers???
You also said that the death of babies are the result of indiscriminate use of guns, that a soldier wouldn't do it intentionally. You are 100% right, if the Israeli army had a little compassion to Palestinians they probably wouldn't have sniped those babies in the first place. Similar acts are done in Palestine everyday, and they are done solely to put fear in the hearts of Palestinians, in other words they were engaging in Terrorism.

Chuvak you said Arafat was offered 90% of Palestinian land occupied prior to 1967.
For your information bro, it was all a myth. The Occupied Territories are just 22% of pre-1948 Palestine. So the entire “unprecedented” offer is about 10% of the original land of Palestine. Tricky huh? ;)

For details read The Myth of Camp David by Stanley Heller at http://www.thestruggle.org/fraud.html

I suggest everyone to read "Blaming the Victims" by Edward Said. It's a collection of scholarly essays written by Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars on the issue of Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It's not a sum of personal stories but rather scholarly work with documents, facts, and statistics. I'll try to put it up online, definately worth time.

Zionism = Racism ; Zionism - No , Judaism - Yes

For those of you who think all Jews are for Israel (you are wrong, it ain't so) visit: http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Peace,
SHuMBOLA

pax_americana

06-21-2002, 02:13 PM

ShumBOLA (Jun 17, 2002 01:24):
stud

Zionism = Racism ; Zionism - No , Judaism - Yes

For those of you who think all Jews are for Israel (you are wrong, it ain't so) visit: http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Peace,
SHuMBOLA

Thanks for your contirbution!!

Мукбил Тошотар

07-02-2002, 09:48 PM

http://www.al-muslim.org/palestine/jenin_pictures.html

Мукбил Тошотар

07-02-2002, 09:54 PM

2002 йил, 22 июн

Мухтарам ўкувчи, куйида эътиборингизга хавола этилаётган Якин Шаркка оид киска савол-жавоблар "The Orlando Sentinel" мухбири Чарли Риз томонидан тузилган бўлиб, ишончимиз комилки, келтирилган далиллар сизни ажаблантиради. Зотан, мана ярим асрдан кўпрок вактдан буён давом этаётган Якин Шарк можароси хакида бугунги ўзбек ўкувчиси атрофлича маълумотга эга эмас. Шу билан бирга ўзининг шафкатсиз хатти-харакатлари туфайли билдирилаётган халкаро талаб ва даъватларга беписанд Исроил расмийлари дунё жамоатчилигининг хакли танкидига учраб боришмокда. Ушбу матнларнинг инглиз тилидаги аслини www.islamevents.com дан топишингиз мумкин. Кавс ичидаги изохлар тахририятники.

ЎЗИНГИЗ ХУЛОСА ЧИКАРИНГ-ЧИ!

(Инглиз тилидан таржима)

С: Якин Шаркда ядровий куролга эга бўлган ягона давлат кайси?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Якин Шаркда кайси мамлакат ядровий куролларни таркатмаслик шартномасига имзо чекишдан бош тортиб, халкаро тафтишларга тўскинлик килаяпти?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Якин Шаркдаги кайси мамлакат минтакадаги бошка давлатларнинг худудларини харбий куч билан босиб олган хамда БМТ Хавфсизлик Кенгашининг резолюцияларига зид равишда уларни эгаллашда давом этмокда?
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С: АКШ нинг Якин Шаркдаги кайси иттифокчиси йиллар давомида ўз сиёсий душманларини ўлдириш учун ўзга мамлакатларга ёлланма котиллар жўнатиб келмокда (бу амалиёт баъзан терроризм экспорти деб номланади)?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Якин Шаркдаги кайси мамлакат уруш асирларини онгли равишда катл этган ўз аскарларини жазолашдан бош тортиб келмокда?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Якин Шаркдаги кайси мамлакат 762 000 кочкинни келтириб чикарган (БМТ Ярашув комиссиясининг 1949 йилги маълумотларига кўра) хамда уларга ўз уйларига, экинзорларига ва иш жойларига кайтишга рухсат беришдан бош тортиб келмокда?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Якин Шаркда ўзи томонидан ерлари, банк хисоблари ва ширкатлари мусодара килинган одамларга товон пули тўлашдан кайси мамлакат бош тортмокда?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Якин Шаркдаги кайси давлатда БМТ нинг олий даражали дипломатига суикасд уюштирилган? (Афсуски, шу ўринда макола муаллифи ўлдирилган дипломатнинг шахсига оид маълумотларни келтирмаган экан.)
Ж: Исроил.

С: Якин Шаркдаги кайси мамлакатда БМТ нинг олий даражали дипломатини ўлдиришга буйрук берган шахс бош вазир бўлди?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Якин Шаркдаги кайси мамлакат Мисрда АКШ дипломатик биносини портлатган хамда АКШ да "Озодлик" хайкалига, халкаро сув хавзасида эса АКШ кемасига хужум уюштириб, америкалик 35 нафар денгизчининг ўлими ва 177 нафар денгизчининг ярадор бўлишига сабаб бўлган эди?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Якин Шаркдаги кайси мамлакат АКШ даги махфий хужжатларни ўгирлаш учун Жонатан Поллард исмли жосусни ёллаган ва шундан сўнг баъзи хужжатларни Совет Иттифоки билан ўртоклашган эди?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Кайси мамлакат дастлаб Поллардга алокадорликни расман инкор этган, кейин эса унга фукаролик берган ва давомли суратда АКШ президенти томонидан унинг тўла-тўкис авф этилишини талаб килиб келган эди?
Ж: Исроил.

С: "Фортуна" журнали томонидан якинда нашр этилган Вашингтон инсайдерлари шархига биноан, АКШ да энг кудратли иккинчи лобби кучига Ер юзидаги кайси давлат эга?
Ж: Исроил.
(Инсайдерлар - ички маълумотга ваколати бўлган кишилар, одатда корпорация бошкарувчилари, бош менежерларга нисбатан кўлланилади)
(Лобби - АКШ сенатида маълум бир гурух манфаатини химоя килувчи вакил, айни ўринда яхудийлар манфаатини химоя килувчи лобби назарда тутилган)

С: Якин Шаркдаги кайси мамлакат БМТ Хавфсизлик Кенгашининг 69 та резолюциясига карши ва буларнинг 29 дан ортикрогидан АКШ нинг ветолари билан химояланган?
Ж: Исроил.

С: Дунёдаги кайси мамлакат БМТ тинчликпарвар кучларининг Фаластин халкини Исроил харбий боскинчилигидан химоялашини маъкулламайди?
Ж: Америка Кўшма Штатлари.

С: АКШ "БМТ Хавфсизлик Кенгаши резолюцияларига итоат килиниши лозимлиги" нуктаи назаридан кайси мамлакатга бомба ёгдириш билан тахдид килмокда?
Ж: Ирокка.

Akhee-Abdullah

07-05-2002, 07:48 PM

Nice and provocative articles:
http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/fiskjourn.htm

Akhee-Abdullah

07-05-2002, 07:49 PM

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=79818

javanmard

07-07-2002, 07:35 AM

I don't think even talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict is constructive.

Muslims are sad to say terrorists. This is the truth. But just because Muslims are killers, that does not mean that the Israelis (not all Jews are Israelis) are justified in killing and persecuting Arabs.

In the end of the day, it is a very hard conflict to figure out. One would ask,

"If the Arabs are given back Palestine, where will the Jews go????"

"If the Palestinians are given a state, ALONG SIDE Israel, will that guarantee peace???"

One must remember that Israel is country built by the Jewish people. And now, fifty years on they have just as much right to live there as the Palestinians. PLEASE don't get me wrong. I am not saying the ill treatment of the Palestianians is justified. It is most certainly not. But I am just trying to point out the complexities of the problem and in the end the futility of discussing it.

ElNemo

07-24-2002, 04:41 AM

Assalamu alaykum dear brothers and sisters,

I got to know about this conflict in may, 2001. I wasn't much aware of the character of the problem but once I started some survey and could see that Israil was just using force with no actual aim. they claim they want to protect themselves and the security of its citizens... but how?.. i mean if you go out and occupy territories that do not (!) belong to you, if you just shoot at kids carrying stones... i fully understand the policy and actions that common palestinian citizens are adhering to. i really do not have any clue in terms of arafat's rule but i believe that (as ivanov, the russian external minister said) he is a chosen, elected leader. and if sharon sees him as a week leader, who cannot stop suiciders from doing so (don't forget the suiciders are not mentally sick - they have clear thought and brain), well its his and his peoples' problem!!!

i believe that palestine is to be provided the sovereignty it's fighting for. just think, why did this problem emerge and still is there?.. because israil (with a support of guns and force) started to occupy territories inside palestine claiming that those are their holy lands and that palestine people filth those areas...

one more proof for my words: israil is much stronger, in terms of military, than filistia. see: "2002 йил, 22 июн
Мухтарам ўкувчи, куйида эътиборингизга хавола этилаётган Якин Шаркка оид киска савол-жавоблар "The Orlando Sentinel" мухбири Чарли Риз томонидан тузилган бўлиб, ишончимиз комилки, келтирилган далиллар сизни ажаблантиради. Зотан, мана ярим асрдан кўпрок вактдан буён давом этаётган Якин Шарк можароси хакида бугунги ўзбек ўкувчиси атрофлича маълумотга эга эмас. Шу билан бирга ўзининг шафкатсиз хатти-харакатлари туфайли билдирилаётган халкаро талаб ва даъватларга беписанд Исроил расмийлари дунё жамоатчилигининг хакли танкидига учраб боришмокда. Ушбу матнларнинг инглиз тилидаги аслини www.islamevents.com дан топишингиз мумкин. Кавс ичидаги изохлар тахририятники.

ЎЗИНГИЗ ХУЛОСА ЧИКАРИНГ-ЧИ!

(Инглиз тилидан таржима)

С: Якин Шаркда ядровий куролга эга бўлган ягона давлат кайси?
Ж: Исроил..."

what does palestine have??? stones and dead children... yes, the palestine also has some strength. maybe all of the guns possessed by the palestinian groups do not come from "clean" sources but don't people "вышибают клин клином"???

look what i found on http://muslimuzbekistan.com/uzb/worldnews/iyul2002/world23072002.html#5

"2002 йил, 23 июл

Исроил Газо шахрига зарба берди

Кеча кечкурун Исроилнинг F-16 учоклари "Хамас" исломий ташкилоти рахбарларидан бири Шайх Салох Шаходнинг Газода жойлашган уйига карата ракета зарбаси берди. Бу хакда "Associated Press" хизмати хабар таркатган. Яхудлар ўзларининг ушбу зарбаларидан уни йўк килишни кўзлашган эди..."

besides, there are historical facts to prove the non-reliability of israil and its people. remember the story of IUDA ISKARIOT... didn't he betray Iso Alayhissalom?! wasn't Jesus Christ and Iuda from the same tribe - bani israil?!?!? so, now, how can one trust this nation with such background.

Вывод: о, исроил, дай нашим братьям-мусульманам независимость и будешь жить вечно и в мире, ибо в противном случае закон "око за око, кровь за кровь" не даст твоим сыновям спать спокойно!!!

02:19 25.03.2002 x
Сгорел храм. Реакция СМИ:
1. Если это Мечеть - внутренние разборки бандформирований
2. Если это Церковь - русские работяги по пьянке сами сожгли
3. Если это Синагога - Караул! Антисемитизм! Евреев бьют!

Pax

07-26-2002, 03:01 AM

Javanmard (Jul 07, 2002 07:35):
I don't think even talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict is constructive.
Neither do I!
There are only two ways: (1) Israel will stop occupation and try to estalish good neighborhood relations; (2) Israel will continue it's current policy.

Since, Israel does no seem to withdraw... their will be now peace. The will take the land, and arabs (and perhaps not only arabs) will dream for a revenge.
Jews in Israel are stupid, really!
To be sure there great people in Israel, who criticize their government and empathize with Palistinians, too. But their stupidity is in naivly believing that there will be peace without bloodshed, which they do not want.
They are stupid not to leave that land... is it holy or damned? Jews turned it to damned, both for their fellow Jews and Arabs.
Another group is even more stupid: the religious right. They claim its their land.... well good morning! But where have you been?

Muslims are sad to say terrorists. This is the truth. But just because Muslims are killers, that does not mean that the Israelis (not all Jews are Israelis) are justified in killing and persecuting Arabs.

Oooops... guy, stop!

FIRST
"Know thine enemy!", exclamed one of Shakespeare's hero. There are different Jews and different Israelis. There even Arab Israelis. So the real problem here is Zionism and Zionists.

THEN
It's funny, we don't know our "partisans" as terrorists, as probably Nazis would call them. What mada them "partisans" was their intention to protect their land. You had a nice point: Israel needn't kill (they call)innocent Arabs (I think we can justify the suicders. The blood of innocent civilians is on the bully state of Israel!)

In the end of the day, it is a very hard conflict to figure out. One would ask,

"If the Arabs are given back Palestine, where will the Jews go????"

The creation of the state of Israel, was not the dream of Arabs, right? Jews were the mentors of this "comedy" let them pay. Isn't this just??

"If the Palestinians are given a state, ALONG SIDE Israel, will that guarantee peace???"
This is exactly the rhetorics Israelis use most frequently. Yet, for those ruling the Israel, it's just another chance to occupy the territory.
Do you think that not recognising Arafat as a legitimate authority helps to prevent the suiciders? No, it simply destabilizes the region.

One must remember that Israel is country built by the Jewish people. And now, fifty years on they have just as much right to live there as the Palestinians.
Yeah, true, there is only one place where a man passes his childhood, the best part of life! Since there Israelis born in Israelis, from now on it's THEIR motherland, despite all the historical facts. And it must be a bitter sensation to lose it. But hasn' the Palestinians experienced the same?

PLEASE don't get me wrong. I am not saying the ill treatment of the Palestianians is justified. It is most certainly not. But I am just trying to point out the complexities of the problem and in the end the futility of discussing it.

javanmard

07-28-2002, 04:03 AM

Hello Dragonman,

Thanks for your reply to my earlier post. I do agree with you, but on some points I have to clarify:-

Muslims are seen as killers. When I refer to muslims here I am not talking about Hamas, Hizbollah or any Palestinian group. I am talking about the bad press given off by so-called muslim freedom fighters. Al Qaeda, Hizb Ul Tahrir, Abu Sayyaf. Let me ask you a few questions. What was the real benefit of the September 11th attacks?? Is it justified to attack civilians because the government is seen to support another regime thousands of miles away?? How about the killers of Daniel Pearl?? They cut his head off, for no reason. The leader of their gang was a british muslim. That tells you alot about what he was thinking.

I must disagree on this point. Muslims are killers and they like doing it. America uses its army and military might to push its global policy. THIS IS WRONG!! but only Muslims murder people believing deep down what they are doing is right. That is the difference.

Pax

07-29-2002, 03:04 AM

Javanmard (Jul 28, 2002 04:03):
Hello Dragonman,

Thanks for your reply to my earlier post. I do agree with you, but on some points I have to clarify:-

Muslims are seen as killers. When I refer to muslims here I am not talking about Hamas, Hizbollah or any Palestinian group. I am talking about the bad press given off by so-called muslim freedom fighters. Al Qaeda, Hizb Ul Tahrir, Abu Sayyaf. Let me ask you a few questions. What was the real benefit of the September 11th attacks?? Is it justified to attack civilians because the government is seen to support another regime thousands of miles away?? How about the killers of Daniel Pearl?? They cut his head off, for no reason. The leader of their gang was a british muslim. That tells you alot about what he was thinking.

I must disagree on this point. Muslims are killers and they like doing it. America uses its army and military might to push its global policy. THIS IS WRONG!! but only Muslims murder people believing deep down what they are doing is right. That is the difference.

I am not DragoNman... I am DRAGOMAN (an interperter from Oriental languages like Persian, Arabic or Turkish), OK?

Then,
It seems, for you muslims are blood-thursty group of people. Well, I don't know how did you come to this conclusion, and what had (exactly!) driven you, but let me remind you that muslims comprise 1/4 of the current population (and keeps growing despite all the obstacles with a rate greater than that of its major rival -Christianity(??, I don't know))

Presuming that a man can kill at least another one, by this calculation and through eye-glasses, there should have less people by 50%... nice news for Chinese.

Islam and muslims are nothing new... since 7th century you know. I don't know if I should give you some lessons of history of Mid-East, for example, of Middle Ages...??

And what is more evil: a state, claiming to be a patron of democracy, and a bunch of terrorists with doubtful religious credentials. Who is that Bin Laden in the end? A civil engineer by education.

tokiec

07-29-2002, 03:47 AM

Javanmard? may be your name is Juvonmarg?

well, bush pronounced that the war against terrorism was not aimed to blow off islam, it is impossible. now, if you're american, than you're proving that originally war was and is against islam, all muslims all over the world.

are you jewish? only jewish people can f@ck themselves and claim that they were raped by muslims! afterwards, revenge for this crap!

have yo ever visited jews web-forums? do you know what they say about themselves - they say that they were selected by God to govern the World, can you bear with it?

when they talk about palestinians losses they talk as it were a fun...

i used to know one, ****ed up ukrainian jew with russian surname, which is read in jewish manner, crap! to the point, he had been to israel fo several times, and was proud that he, not a citizen of israel, was allowed to participate in those clearings!!! shit, do you understand what does it mean? it means most of those, who go to israel are potential combatants on the israeli side!!!

juvonmarg, stop craping yourself out, never say that almost one third of the world's population r killers! if it were true, you could not say this crap.

remember, nobody will touch you and harm, unless you do it first!

Dragoman (Jul 29, 2002 03:04):
Javanmard (Jul 28, 2002 04:03):
Hello Dragonman,

Thanks for your reply to my earlier post. I do agree with you, but on some points I have to clarify:-

Muslims are seen as killers. When I refer to muslims here I am not talking about Hamas, Hizbollah or any Palestinian group. I am talking about the bad press given off by so-called muslim freedom fighters. Al Qaeda, Hizb Ul Tahrir, Abu Sayyaf. Let me ask you a few questions. What was the real benefit of the September 11th attacks?? Is it justified to attack civilians because the government is seen to support another regime thousands of miles away?? How about the killers of Daniel Pearl?? They cut his head off, for no reason. The leader of their gang was a british muslim. That tells you alot about what he was thinking.

I must disagree on this point. Muslims are killers and they like doing it. America uses its army and military might to push its global policy. THIS IS WRONG!! but only Muslims murder people believing deep down what they are doing is right. That is the difference.

I am not DragoNman... I am DRAGOMAN (an interperter from Oriental languages like Persian, Arabic or Turkish), OK?

Then,
It seems, for you muslims are blood-thursty group of people. Well, I don't know how did you come to this conclusion, and what had (exactly!) driven you, but let me remind you that muslims comprise 1/4 of the current population (and keeps growing despite all the obstacles with a rate greater than that of its major rival -Christianity(??, I don't know))

Presuming that a man can kill at least another one, by this calculation and through eye-glasses, there should have less people by 50%... nice news for Chinese.

Islam and muslims are nothing new... since 7th century you know. I don't know if I should give you some lessons of history of Mid-East, for example, of Middle Ages...??

And what is more evil: a state, claiming to be a patron of democracy, and a bunch of terrorists with doubtful religious credentials. Who is that Bin Laden in the end? A civil engineer by education.

javanmard

07-29-2002, 06:43 AM

Listen Dragoman, or whatever. If you want to talk to people keep an open mind.

Sindbad, I gave my opinion and you spend an hour talking about Jews. I am not a Jew, nor do I give a shit about Jews.

You are just a savage muslim, waiting to kill everybody who disagrees with you.....

Akhee-Abdullah

07-29-2002, 11:37 AM

LOL, U are so pathetic,

"Javanmarg"-You are just a savage muslim, waiting to kill everybody who disagrees with you.....Muslims are killers and they like doing it. America uses its army and military might to push its global policy. You so pathetic :), a piece of anti-islamic shit ;) Where did u get so much hatred, Javanmargjon???

Muslims are lagging behind because they left Islam, not because they had the Islam.
Read the History...

javanmard

07-29-2002, 01:08 PM

Lucky, what do you know about Islam???

Also, answer me this....why did your friend Sindbad, attack me??? Why could he not reply like a human being instead of a savage???

No wonder the whole world hates us. You think if a war started between the west and the Islamic countries we would win??? We would lose because we are stupid from the start.

Abdulloh

07-29-2002, 02:33 PM

Dear Javanmard-Allah swt is enough for us. And He swt gave the description of the true Muslims:

[B]You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his Sunna (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind, you enjoin Al.Ma 'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid what is Al.Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah [b/](V.3:1 10)

Brother Lucky-I agree with you that Muslims are lagging behind because they deserted their religion, however, you should not have been that harsh towards Javabmard. He is a an ignorant person, and it is not worth talking to them.

Food for thought:

And when the term (time limit) was prolonged for the Muslims and their hearts were hardened and they forgot their religion and became ignorant of the fact (that for what purpose Allah (swt) has sent and chosen them from among the great number of mankind and from the great number of nations of the earth. Allah (swt) said:

So (today) they (Muslims) are leading a life of the one who knows not any Prophet, nor believes in any Divine Message or Divine Inspiration, nor expects any reckoning nor is afraid of the Hereafter. They (Muslims) resemble the pre.Islamic ignorant nations, against whom they used to fight in the past. They have turned on their heels (back) as apostates from Islam, they have imitated them (ignorant nations) in their civilization, in their social affairs, in their political affairs, in their character and in the pleasures of their lives. They (Muslims) also imitated them in many other things because of which Allah (swt) hated and forsook them. He (Allah) put them (Muslims) into trials under the effects of (1) Western civilization (2) and the Eastern Communist propaganda. So their land became "a free wealth" with no protector, their kingdom became a victim for every beast of prey and a food (nourishment) for every eater, and the meaning of the statement of the Prophet (Muhammad pbuh ) became apparent:
"It is expected that the nations will call other nations to share them against you (Muslims) as the eaters call each other to eat from the food in front of them in a large wooden plate." A person asked the Prophet (pbuh) will that happen because of our small number on that day? The Prophet said: "Nay! Your number (will be great, but you will be rubbish like the rubbish of flood-water. And certainly Allah will remove from the hearts of your enemies 'the fear from you' and surely He (Allah) will throw Wahn in your hearts." A person asked: What is 'Wahn', O Allah's Messenger? The Prophet (pbuh) said, 'Wahn' is to love (this) world and to hate the death."
The Prophet pbuh also said,
"If you: (1) practiced Bai'a Al. 'Aina (i.e. selling goods to a person for a certain price and then buying them back from him for a far less price), (2) and followed the tails of the cows (i.e. indulged in agriculture and became contented with it) (3) and deserted the Jihad (holy fighting) in Allah's Cause, Allah will cover you with humiliation and it will not be removed till you return back to your religion (Abu Daud).
And now they (Muslims) have deserted the Jihad and asked help from (their) enemies and protection from the disbelievers, begging them; turning towards them, expecting good from them. So they (Muslims) have become mean, despised before Allah in spite of their Islamic names and in spite of the presence of righteous pious persons amongst them and in spite of the fact that some of the religious laws, signs and ceremonies are practiced in their countries.
One of the orientalists said: "When the Muslims turned away from their religious teachings and became ignorant of its wisdom and its laws, and deviated towards the contradictory (man.made) laws taken from the opinions of men, there spread in them immorality of character, falsehood, hypocrisy, ill.will and hatefulness increased in them. Their unity disintegrated and they became ignorant of their present and future state and became unaware of what will harm them or will benefit them. They have become contented with the life in which they eat, drink, sleep and compete not with others, in superiority." AII this is a visible fact, which every true believer feels, and which every enthusiastic person (about his religion) palpates in every community (nation) that gives up Al-Jihad and dips itself; (1) in a luxurious life, (2) in the worshipping of wealth and (3) in the love of this world.

They judge their people with the contradictory (man.made) laws which conflict and clash with the Islamic laws, which were the origin of their honour and pride and in which was their peace and steadfastness. Allah (swt) said:
Do they then seek the judgment of (the Days of) Ignorance. And who is better in judgement than Allah for a people who have firm Faith? (V.5:50).
We beseech Allah to make victorious His Religion (Islam) and to make superior His Words and to lead all the Muslims to that in which His Pleasure is-Amin.
"If Allah is your helper, none can overcome you.
But if He withdraws His help from you,
then who is there who can help you?
In Allah then, let believers put their trust!"
(Al-Qur'an 3:160)

Akhee-Abdullah

07-29-2002, 04:21 PM

Javanmard (Jul 29, 2002 13:08):
Lucky, what do you know about Islam???

Also, answer me this....why did your friend Sindbad, attack me??? Why could he not reply like a human being instead of a savage???

No wonder the whole world hates us. You think if a war started between the west and the Islamic countries we would win??? We would lose because we are stupid from the start.

Javanmard, you are well-known with your slander against Islam and Muslim people. If a person misbehaves, it does not give u the right to generalize all of the Muslims and call em with names.

Javanmard-No wonder the whole world hates us.

You shud have asked the question-"why do Muslims hate them??"-and here is the answer http://www.afsc.org/pwork/0110/011022.htm

BTW, wat do u mean by "us"??? You are considering urself a Muslim?? Wat a hyppocrite...

About this war thing,I hope this war will not start...none needs it except the idiots like W.Bush and Ben Laden. My answer is none will win in the war, everybody loses, if that's wat you expected.

Here what Islam is:

Also on the authority of Omar, who said :
One day while we were sitting with the messenger of Allah there appeared before us a man whose clothes were exceedingly white and whose hair was exceedingly black; no signs of journeying were to be seen on him and none of us knew him. He walked up and sat down by the prophet. Resting his knees against his and placing the palms of his hands on his thighs, he said:"O Muhammed, tell me about Islam". The messenger of Allah said: "Islam is to testify that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is the messenger of Allah, to perform the prayers, to pay the zakat, to fast in Ramadhan, and to make the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to do so." He said:"You have spoken rightly", and we were amazed at him asking him and saying that he had spoken rightly. He said: "Then tell me about eman."He said:"It is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and to believe in divine destiny, both the good and the evil thereof." He said:"You have spoken rightly". He said: " Then tell me about ehsan." He said: "It is to worship Allah as though you are seeing Him, and while you see Him not yet truly He sees you". He said: "Then tell me about the Hour". He said: "The one questioned about it knows no better than the questioner." He said: "Then tell me about its signs." He said: "That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and that you will see the barefooted, naked, destitute herdsman competing in constructing lofty buildings." Then he took himself off and I stayed for a time. Then he said: "O Omar, do you know who the questioner was?" I said: "Allah and His messenger know best". He said: "He was Jebreel (Gabriel), who came to you to teach you your religion."

(Narrated by Muslim.)

Here what Islam is not: http://www.thetruereligion.org/terror.htm

Abdulloh-thanks for the comments. Very thought provoking post...

javanmard

07-29-2002, 11:26 PM

Thanks Abdollah, for at least trying to act civilised. It is much appreciated.

Lucky, you are living in a dream world. Muslims are hateful evil people. Why do you call all non-muslims Kafirs??? Like it is a derogatory term?? Don't you think people who don't agree with you have rights as well??

Do you know something. I will say something now, and I would all of you to research this and then answer me. Read the hadiths on this. The Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) destroyed all the Jewish tribes in Arabia. He killed all of them. He did this because they would not pay tribute to him. There are many who would tell you that the Isrealis current treatment of the Palestinians is just revenge for these acts by the Prophet of Islam....

After looking at the facts (please only look at the writings of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim because they are universally accepted) what is your honest human opinion. Forget what we are talking about now and base your reply on the facts. Try to be fair.

Many Muslims I have spoken give me the same answer. The Jews of Arabia refused to become Muslims and therefore diserved to be destroyed. But is that what God really wants from us?? To kill each other???

Look it up and let me know.

Pax

07-30-2002, 03:12 AM

Javanmard (Jul 29, 2002 06:43):
Listen Dragoman, or whatever. If you want to talk to people keep an open mind.

I listen Javan Nerd, or what ever creature you are...
What do you call open-minded? With brains full of western propaganda?

No thanks, I would prefer to be "a narrow-minded" in your eyes, than to believe in the bullshit from the western media.

Once I subscribed to Newsweek, and everytime there appeared an article about Mid-East, the Jews were the heroes, the sufferers. To be sure, they author (Joshua Hammer) occasionally wrote about Palestinians plights as well. But there were never visual illustration of their suffering.

JEWISH?
Oh, yes! A family bemoaning their lost son. Maimed Jews etc. But Arabs? No!

Look at the statistics pasted at the previous (page/s) by PAX (i.d. me). This list I compiled from Newsweek. But does coverage of news runs parallel to their own statistics.... definitely, NO!

LUCKY
I agree with you. EXACTLY!! We (as umma) are backward because we went astray from the path prescribed by the Prophet (PBUH).
Really, this NERD from JAVA should have some lessons of the history of religions.

Pax

07-30-2002, 03:36 AM

Javanmard (Jul 29, 2002 23:26):
Thanks Abdollah, for at least trying to act civilised. It is much appreciated.

Lucky, you are living in a dream world. Muslims are hateful evil people. Why do you call all non-muslims Kafirs??? Like it is a derogatory term?? Don't you think people who don't agree with you have rights as well??

I thnink at this forum, except for some guys like Javanmard, everyone behaves civilisedly. His arrogance goes so much as to blame us with just responding his question in the same mood they were asked.

Javanmard, where did lucky call the non-believers Kafirs?
And if he really did, I think this term needs some clarification. Are the People of Scripture classified as Kafir, that' s what I would like to discuss.

javanmard

07-30-2002, 06:44 AM

I don't know how to get a proper word in edge ways when all you guys can do is try to make fun of my name....:)

Dragoman, your take on the western propaganda is real, but over the past few years it has changed. If it will make you feel better the news here in the middle east is even worse. They actually portray Jews as devils. People in Arab countries really see all Jews as evil...like they are monsters!!! I am not a huge Jewish fan myself. They seem to think they are better then everybody but still........they are not monsters who enjoy killing babies. Also the whole point of my discussion, is that Muslims are not perfect either. Even if all muslims followed the ummah of the Prophet, your not going to have world peace......We need to look further than that.

Lucky, sorry lets start fresh. If I offended you I openly apologize. Lets re-start our discussion. I asked a question earlier about the roots of the Muslim - Jew hatred. I'd like to hear your opinion on it. Also, Kafir, is somebody who does not believe that Allah is the only God and Mohammed is his Prophet. That is the literal meaning of Kafir. There are people who are recognised as being people of the book, ie, Christians, Jews and even (there is some confusion on this) Zoroastrians.

Akhee-Abdullah

07-30-2002, 07:32 AM

Hello there-I'd like to reply to two questions.

Fistly, Jews of Madina lived in peace until they plotted against the prophet Muhammad (saw) along with pagan Arabs. Afterwards, they got what they deserved.

Kafir-literally means a peasant or the one who covers the seed under the earth. In Islamic sense, a Kaffir is a person who hides the truth, his own nature.

Kafir is not a derogatory word. But it is so much abhorred by the Muslims that they never wanna go back to that state. They'd rather die instead of going back to kufriya. If a person hates to be Kaffir, it does not mean that the word kaffir is a derogatory.

Kaffir in a larger context includes any one who denies the Prophethood of Muhammad (saw), thus includes, Jews, Chrsitians and Majus. Specifucally, Kaffir refers to the Idol worshippers, pagans and etc.

There is no point in discussing anything with you Juvonmarg. I can see that you take all ur bullcrap from un-Islamic and non-historical sources which are "truth" with intentional bias and twisted meanings. Discussion is productive, but argument (in a neg sense) is destructive. ( I am not denying the fruits of objective debate). Juvonmarg-You are just a waste of time, a pathetic camel rider, with ur rug on ur head, from UAE, lol.

kuzatuvchi

07-30-2002, 08:13 AM

Hi y'all,

I dropped a post earlier and still think the way I did when posting it. The aim of THIS particular post is to find out where Javana Mat' is from? ??? I mean you act like... I dunno what!!! one cannot determine whether u r a muslim or not!

so be so kind - let every1 here no ur origin. I mean whoever comes in here and sees this thread says that Israil is not the best party to love!!! and you are sole person to reject that. Maybe we all, being Muslims, are seeing only the Muslims' suffer. But aren't they REALLY suffering??? Why r they suffering by the way?!. because they don't have air crafts to respond to Israil's attacks, because they don't have the US (go'rida to'ng'iz qo'psin) support ya know...

So, anyway, plz let us know who you are and where you are from.

Regards, Elmurad

p/s don't consider every1 but yourself not civilized. like we say in Uzbek - birovning ustidan kulmagin zinhor sening ham ustingdan kuluvchilar bor (i.e. better not laugh at others, u might fall into alike situation) hehe

javanmard

07-30-2002, 01:56 PM

Based on Lucky's thinking we would have to conclude that what is happning to the Palestinians is what they deserve. According to Lucky's twisted logic, the Jews deserved to be butchered, killed, raped and enslaved by the holy holy Prophet because they disagreed with him and would not pay him tribute....

If you are going to live in a world where such things are acceptable, than you must believe that the Palestinians are just paying the price for being muslim. One could even say that God is punishing them.......

You can go on and on with your twisted hate. Perhaps you think its ok to kill people for disagreeing with you, actually it is what most muslims think. But real human beings would disagree with you.

BTW, I am Iranian and you guys are monkies. I have never been attacked by a bigger bunch of ignorant idiots in my life. You guys don't even understand the articles you read. Your facts are all half and half. Half fact and half your fantasies.

Lucky you don't anything about Islam. I suggest you go live in an Islamic country for a while, then you can talk.

Akhee-Abdullah

07-30-2002, 02:50 PM

Hey Wazzup pieace of Shit :p

I know wat u talking about now :) according to you, if i did not misunderstand, Palestinians deserve this because they are Muslims. Jews of Madina were punished not because they disagreed or did not pay tribute, but because they tried to kill prophet Muhammad (saw) and overthrow Islamic government of Madina along with pagan Arabs. Actually they poisoned him (saw) afterwards they got kicked out. That what I meant when i said they deserved it.

Juvanmarg or whatever "Aryan" BullCrap, you think you deserve respect??? LOL, You are full of hatred shit, cant believe this, pathetic uncivilized piece of "Aryan" Shit. LOL, even their shit is a superior race, LOL. Cannot just understand, how come thousands of Christians and Jews preserved their deen under Islamic rule, if muslims were that intolerant??? Why in the world, the Jewish people had their Golden Age under Islamic rule in Andalusiya??? Cant still understand that we got over a million Arab Chhristians living in Lybanon, Jordan, Palstine and Syria. DO you think they converted to Christianity recently??

Listen-you piece of aryan shit. DO u know why your ancestors left your holy Zaroastrian religion?? Because, they saw Islam was superior in all aspects.Plus, before Islam this barbaric Aryans used to marry their own mothers, and sisters, can you believe this??? How pathetic these people were... So called "uncivilized" Arabs came and civilized you people. Bunch of Nazi-Aryans treated all other races like shit, including the Jewish people. Yes, Jewish people were enslaved by Pagan Persians.

Thank God, because of mercy of God the children of these pathetic people came to the Guidance, and enlightened the world with the light of wisdom. And gave the world, the great thinkers like Imam Abu Hanifa, Ghazzali, and Rumi others. The Golden Age of Islamic period was built on the shoulders of these people, not the pathetc outcasts like you.

I live in one of the so-called Islamic countries of the world. Who gave Islamic world Bukharis, Tirmizi's, Samarqandi's, Qoqandi's, Khorazmiy's and the rest. I know wat the condionns are like in those countries. No where in the Islamic world, I can point to a country and say, "they are ruling Islamically." But i can point to you Muslim Individuals, the living Quraan's. The pious, and humble and amazing people. They are many, but not the majority, unfortunately.

I do not blame any one for the Muslim misfortune except the Muslims themselves of our current days. Isalm by its nature is a Democrtatic, it does resepect difference of opinions. Never in the History true Islamic society/country was ruled by a tyrant. The country was ruled by the Ijmaa (consensus of the majority.) of the people, i.e, the ruler was elected and selected. All faiths could and did co-exist within the Islamic society as long as they did not make public propagation and paid the jizya for getting protection from the Muslims. Actually the christians of Byzantine Empire preferred Islamic rule over the Christian rule, and they remained on their faith until today.

Preach your hatred somewhere else, old- donkey...and chill..:p

javanmard

07-30-2002, 11:12 PM

Lucky,

Please show me the hadith that states that all the Jews in Madina poisoned the Prophet. I really suggest you re-read the hadiths and see what they actually say.

People in Iran became muslim because if they did'nt there lives would be made a living hell. Also, most people were Zoroastrian in Iran well after the Arabs were thrown out. This was roughly 150 years after the invasion. Shah Abbas later came in and declared that everybody should be Shia Muslim. Zoroastrians were persecuted, but still till today there is a small minority of Zartoshtis in Iran and there numbers are growing. Did you know that the Arabs were in Spain longer than they were in Iran?? Ask yourself why you will not find on Muslim in Spain now even though the Moors were there for more than 300 years..............

I have heard many people say that there is nobody on earth following Islam properly. Lucky, I don't dislike you, or want to put you down, but how do you know?? If I ask a Wahabbi in Saudi Arabia, (BTW, there are many Wahabbis in the Persian Gulf that I've met) he will tell me that YOU (ie. You Lucky) don't know what you are talking about. Uzbeks cannot even understand the hadiths and the Quran properly. The Arabs know the language of the Quran and the hadiths and are therefore in a much better position to understand them.

If I tell an Arab that Uzbeks and Pakistanis are saying that they do not know about there own religion they will laugh at me. Islam came from Saudi Arabia. They are studying the Quran and the sayings of the Prophet 24 hours a day. You a man coming from over 70 years of atheist culture (Soviet) are now saying that Wahabbis don't know there own religion?????

Listen Lucky, I am not trying to make you upset or argue, but you have to admit I do have a point. Osama Bin Laden is as far as he is concerned a good muslim. He, and Arab who can read the Quran, who understands his own religous background, believes that killing civilians is allowed in Islam. I for one agree that it is allowed in Islam. I would never condone killing civilians but I would agree that some surrahs in the Quran can be interpreted as such.

Pax

07-31-2002, 09:05 AM

Javanmard (Jul 30, 2002 13:56):
Based on Lucky's thinking we would have to conclude that what is happning to the Palestinians is what they deserve. According to Lucky's twisted logic, the Jews deserved to be butchered, killed, raped and enslaved by the holy holy Prophet because they disagreed with him and would not pay him tribute....

Hey guy where did you pick this bullshit? Or is it simply ur imagination? You know even the missionary do not go as far in their lies. They may say the Prophet killed the Jews and add that they were innocent, while actually he just punished them for their attempt so plot against him. Tell me where traitors are loved? And can we do if those specific Jews of Madina were traitros? "Raped" was too much.

Now, read this one more time, just in case you forget (it seems you have problems in your head), or maybe you didn't get it "straight". If it didn't work out read once more, and once again.
If this doesn' help hit a wall with your head tree times, this should increase overall metabolism and supply of blood to ur sucking head. Then try to grasp what is said once again, if doesn't help, drop it drop it, you are helplessly stupid!

If you are going to live in a world where such things are acceptable, than you must believe that the Palestinians are just paying the price for being muslim. One could even say that God is punishing them.......

Maybe Lucky is right: definitely, this guy has a fixed system of ideas.... even obsessions.

Hey you, are that stupid or just pretending. I am not in favor of using vulgur words, but you seem not to understand. Where did Lucky say, like you said "According to Lucky's twisted logic, the Jews deserved to be butchered, killed, raped and enslaved by the holy holy Prophet because they disagreed with him and would not pay him tribute" ????? Poor, Javan Mare (a female horse... for your information), you should see a doctor.
You can go on and on with your twisted hate. Perhaps you think its ok to kill people for disagreeing with you, actually it is what most muslims think. But real human beings would disagree with you.

Javan Mare,
Just two things, OK?
1) Islam means peace. We are not enemies to anybody. We want to live our lives and preach (do not confuse terms here) our religion. That's all! Is this too much?
2) Whoever doesn't leave us alone, will have trobles.

BTW, I am Iranian and you guys are monkies. I have never been attacked by a bigger bunch of ignorant idiots in my life. You guys don't even understand the articles you read. Your facts are all half and half. Half fact and half your fantasies.

Lucky you don't anything about Islam. I suggest you go live in an Islamic country for a while, then you can talk.

I really had better to begin your postings from announcing that you are announcing. What do you call Islamic country? I am afraid Iran with all its zoo of clerical authority is not truly islamic in my perception of "islamic".

Well, you insult us first and then wonder why we insult you?? Guy, you lost the balance!

Akhee-Abdullah

07-31-2002, 09:19 AM

Javanmaraz said - I have heard many people say that there is nobody on earth following Islam properly. Lucky, I don't dislike you, or want to put you down, but how do you know?? If I ask a Wahabbi in Saudi Arabia, (BTW, there are many Wahabbis in the Persian Gulf that I've met) he will tell me that YOU (ie. You Lucky) don't know what you are talking about. Uzbeks cannot even understand the hadiths and the Quran properly. The Arabs know the language of the Quran and the hadiths and are therefore in a much better position to understand them.

Lucky said- No where in the Islamic world, I can point to a country and say, "they are ruling Islamically." But i can point to you Muslim Individuals, the living Quraan's. The pious, and humble and amazing people. They are many, but not the majority, unfortunately.

I think I have already replied to your comment, old ass.

Javanmaraz said-Listen Lucky, I am not trying to make you upset or argue, but you have to admit I do have a point. Osama Bin Laden is as far as he is concerned a good muslim. He, and Arab who can read the Quran, who understands his own religous background, believes that killing civilians is allowed in Islam. I for one agree that it is allowed in Islam. I would never condone killing civilians but I would agree that some surrahs in the Quran can be interpreted as such.

:) Janamaraz, no verse of quraan neither indicates no confirms the killinfs of innocent civilians, in fact there is saheeh hadith which says that any one who kills an innocent Dhimmy (non-muslim) will no smell the scent of pradise. If ben laden was really behind those killings, the same rule applies to him.

Read this idiot:

Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen on Committing Suicide
Kayfa Nu'aalij Waaqi'unaa al-Aleem - Page 12
Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen
Fatwa-Online

Question: What is the ruling regarding suicide in Islaam?

Response: Suicide is when a person kills himself intentionally by whatever means. This is haraam and regarded as amongst the major sins, and likewise included in the general statement of Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala):

{And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein, and the Wrath and the Curse of Allaah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him}, [Soorah an-Nisaa, Aayah 93].

And it is established from the Sunnah on the authority of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) who said:

((Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever)), [Bukhaaree (5778 ) and Muslim (109 and 110)].

In reality, the one who commits suicide, generally does so because of his desperate situation, either as a direct result of an act of Allaah or a human being. So you find him unable to cope with that which has afflicted him, and in actual fact he is like one who is calling for help from the scorching heat of the fire. So he has progressed from that which was tough (bad) to that which is worse. And if he was patient, then Allaah would have assisted him in dealing with the difficulty.

Akhee-Abdullah

07-31-2002, 09:21 AM

Another nice piece:

Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen on Attacking the enemy by blowing oneself up in a car
Kayfa Nu'aalij Waaqi'unaa al-Aleem - Page 119
Shaykh Ibn 'Uthaymeen
Fatwa-Online

Question: What is the ruling regarding acts of jihaad by means of suicide, such as attaching explosives to a car and storming the enemy, whereby he knows without a doubt that he shall die as a result of this action?

Response: Indeed, my opinion is that he is regarded as one who has killed himself (committed suicide), and as a result he shall be punished in Hell, for that which is authenticated on the authority of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam).

[((Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever)), [Bukhaaree (5778) and Muslim (109 and 110)]].

However, one who is ignorant and does not know, and assumes his action was good and pleasing to Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala), then we hope Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala) forgives him for that which he did out of (ignorant) ijtihaad, even though I do not find any excuse for him in the present day. This is because this type of suicide is well known and widespread amongst the people, so it is upon the person to ask the people of knowledge (scholars) regarding it, until the right guidance for him is differentiated from the error.

And from that which is surprising, is that these people kill themselves despite Allaah having fordbidden this, as He (Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala) says:

{And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allaah is Most Merciful to you}, [Soorah an-Nisaa., Aayah 29].

And many amongst them do not desire anything except revenge of the enemy, by whatever means, be it halaal or haraam. So they only want to satisfy their thirst for revenge.

We ask Allaah to bless us with foresight in His Deen and action(s) which please Him, indeed He is all Powerful over all things.

Pax

07-31-2002, 09:36 AM

Javanmard (Jul 30, 2002 23:12):
Lucky,

Please show me the hadith that states that all the Jews in Madina poisoned the Prophet. I really suggest you re-read the hadiths and see what they actually say.

That's a novelty, really. Who relates the hadith? I am not sure of your SHIA background.

People in Iran became muslim because if they did'nt there lives would be made a living hell. Also, most people were Zoroastrian in Iran well after the Arabs were thrown out. This was roughly 150 years after the invasion. Shah Abbas later came in and declared that everybody should be Shia Muslim. Zoroastrians were persecuted, but still till today there is a small minority of Zartoshtis in Iran and there numbers are growing. Did you know that the Arabs were in Spain longer than they were in Iran?? Ask yourself why you will not find on Muslim in Spain now even though the Moors were there for more than 300 years..............
Because Spain was the western-most part of islamic world while Iran, keeping Central Asia, India and even western China in mind, was in the heart of it.
You must know it better how far from Iranis Baghdat, the capital of Abbasid dynasty.

I have heard many people say that there is nobody on earth following Islam properly. Lucky, I don't dislike you, or want to put you down, but how do you know?? If I ask a Wahabbi in Saudi Arabia, (BTW, there are many Wahabbis in the Persian Gulf that I've met) he will tell me that YOU (ie. You Lucky) don't know what you are talking about.
Of course in the ideal, there's barely a man that can be said a true muslim.
But probably by saying I have heard many people say that there is nobody on earth following Islam properly, then you must have heard wrong ones. Talking about Wahhabis, we should not forget the group of this dissent was established by Lawrence of Arabia, a British spy who deceived arabs and made them attack the Ottomans. We should not forget that they are a bunch of peole yearning for power.
It' hard to have a discussion with the one with poor background. Once you said "lucky, you' re daydreaming", actually it's you who daydreams.

Uzbeks cannot even understand the hadiths and the Quran properly. The Arabs know the language of the Quran and the hadiths and are therefore in a much better position to understand them.

Again you see a pervert image and call it islam and then set out to fight it. Sorta modern Don Quixote!!.
Accoriding to Sunni traditions, in religion all races are equal. Arabic is not our mother-tongue, but see, Javanmard, life is not that primitive. We can learn it, we can have it translated. We understand what' sent by God by reading translation and comments. And that's not like "discovering America". Prophet (aleyhis-salam) encouraged translation of Surat al-Fatiha to newly converted iranians by Salman al-Farisi.

If I tell an Arab that Uzbeks and Pakistanis are saying that they do not know about there own religion they will laugh at me. Islam came from Saudi Arabia. They are studying the Quran and the sayings of the Prophet 24 hours a day. You a man coming from over 70 years of atheist culture (Soviet) are now saying that Wahabbis don't know there own religion?????

I wonder if you will get satisfied if I name the best Sunni university, Al-Azhar. Do you know what the lecturers of that university preach? It seems you don't.

Listen Lucky, I am not trying to make you upset or argue, but you have to admit I do have a point. Osama Bin Laden is as far as he is concerned a good muslim. He, and Arab who can read the Quran, who understands his own religous background, believes that killing civilians is allowed in Islam. I for one agree that it is allowed in Islam. I would never condone killing civilians but I would agree that some surrahs in the Quran can be interpreted as such.

You are to the point, Javanmard!
It's very doubtful that Osama is a good muslim. Actually, Allah knows his heart better. But, it seems so...
Then, who is that Osama, you tell me?? Just a civil engineer. Is he a lecturer at, say, that same al-Azhar? Or does he have a diploma testifying to his knowledge of islam. Wake up, guy. The world is not that simple, not white-and-black, as you see it.

javanmard

07-31-2002, 11:29 PM

I suppose you believe what your writing.......

Your point about Islam not only being for the Arabs is quite wrong. Islam is the ultimate in Arab nationalism. It was a religion tailor made for them. The customs, observances are all Arab.

Before you start yelling at me, find out these answers:

Where did the word "Allah" come from????

Did Djinn exist in pre-Islamic belief. Have we ever seen Djinn??

Is it not strange that all three of the worlds major religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all came to the same people, ie. Semites. When great civilisations were already in existance, (Romans, Persians, Greeks, Aztecs, Eqyptians, Chinese, ) why give all three of your books to a bunch of desert peoples who never contributed anything to the world at all????

Why is heaven so pathetic??? Rivers of honey?? Virgins??? To a desert warrior living in the desert 1500 years ago, this may have sounded fantastic. But even a Roman emperor would not have been impressed by this. What the hell are you going to do with a river of honey. You can't swim in it...:)

Its all a bit strange actually. But one thing we know for sure. Islam was spread to bring wealth back to a poor people. In many ways you can compare the Prophet and the Khalifas to the Mongols. Ofcourse they were not as savage as the Mongols but they still did a lot of damage.

Dragoman_no_time_to_login

08-01-2002, 02:29 AM

Javanmard (Jul 31, 2002 23:29):
I suppose you believe what your writing.......

Your point about Islam not only being for the Arabs is quite wrong. Islam is the ultimate in Arab nationalism. It was a religion tailor made for them. The customs, observances are all Arab.

Before you start yelling at me, find out these answers:

Where did the word "Allah" come from????

Did Djinn exist in pre-Islamic belief. Have we ever seen Djinn??

Is it not strange that all three of the worlds major religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all came to the same people, ie. Semites. When great civilisations were already in existance, (Romans, Persians, Greeks, Aztecs, Eqyptians, Chinese, ) why give all three of your books to a bunch of desert peoples who never contributed anything to the world at all????

Why is heaven so pathetic??? Rivers of honey?? Virgins??? To a desert warrior living in the desert 1500 years ago, this may have sounded fantastic. But even a Roman emperor would not have been impressed by this. What the hell are you going to do with a river of honey. You can't swim in it...:)

Its all a bit strange actually. But one thing we know for sure. Islam was spread to bring wealth back to a poor people. In many ways you can compare the Prophet and the Khalifas to the Mongols. Ofcourse they were not as savage as the Mongols but they still did a lot of damage.

What do you call "great Roman, Greek and Roman civilizations"? True, established great states, they just enslaved the others. I have no time at the moment to go into the details, to tell you how savage all those civilisations were.

It seems you have an enemy in your mind and see every method to assault it, legitimate. Well, go on with your hatred, but it won't prove anything. That's all. Either you cool your head and set your hatred apart, or I simply ignore your posting.

Dragoman_no_time_to_login

08-01-2002, 02:32 AM

And whenever I present an argument, or pose a question you seem not to see it. I wander if you really read what we write here. You know, you may believe it's a nonsense, but we waste our time to not leave your aruments (assalts rather) unanswered.

javanmard

08-01-2002, 08:40 AM

Bahram Jan,

I deeply apologize. When you have time....make a point, anything you want at all and we will discuss it like gentlemen.

You are an Uzbek and therefore my Central Asian brother. I am not a believer in Islam anymore but I am open to discussion. If someone were to prove to me that Islam is a pure and good religion I would be in the mosque at 4 o'clock in the morning for Salat al Subeh...but that has not happened yet! :)

Go ahead, lets go point by point.....

gela

08-01-2002, 09:06 AM

I hate Israelis because thay are not honest people. One of them was leasing his house to me during my stay in Germany. You should have heard how much shit he was telling me about muslim people although he knew that I was from Uzbekistan. Politness was an alien word for him. At the end it appeared to be a big problem to get my deposit back from him. Every day he found a new excuses to delay with a money. Finaly when I was living elsewhere he let me know that i made an appartment completely KAPUT and that it cost at lieast 500 euro to repair everything.
So my friends the question is "if one of them is such a bastard what are the others like?"

Pax

08-02-2002, 02:06 AM

Javanmard (Aug 01, 2002 08:40):
Bahram Jan,

I deeply apologize. When you have time....make a point, anything you want at all and we will discuss it like gentlemen.

You are an Uzbek and therefore my Central Asian brother. I am not a believer in Islam anymore but I am open to discussion. If someone were to prove to me that Islam is a pure and good religion I would be in the mosque at 4 o'clock in the morning for Salat al Subeh...but that has not happened yet! :)

Go ahead, lets go point by point.....

I am not your Central Asian borther, lol!!
For you I am "a blood-thirsty muslim", OK?

If you are not a muslim, I presume it's because of your ignorance and brain-wash in the west.

But let us not deviate from the topic!

Pax

08-02-2002, 02:22 AM

In my modest opinion three major causes of current problem.

1) European antisemitism:

Antisemitism in 19th and 20, gave rise slaughters of Jews in Russia in 19 century. The word pogrom in English has come from Yiddish and is eventually traces back to Russian.
And there were Nazis, with whom we have another intarnational word: Holocaust.

2) Zionism:

Antisemitism didn't let the Jews to leave in safety where they were, so they looked for a safer place, that of their own. Zionism, i.e. Eretz Iztrael for Jews only, consonant wiht the yearnings of Jews.

But we should not forget that Zionism, at present time feeds back the ant-jewish sentiment.

3) Last but not the least: The backwardness of Arab states

If Arabs were really powerful, they would not become toys for intrigues by decaying British Empire.
Just imagine mongols claming lands from Russia on historical basis. That would be funny, because they are weak.

javanmard

08-02-2002, 02:32 PM

Hello Dragoman,

First of all, my current questioning of the authenticity of Islam is not at all because of ignorance. I have been looking into it quite deeply. Also, I don't live in the west. I have good english because I went to an English school, but I have lived my whole life in the Persian Gulf.

Your points:-

Antisemitism was unfortunate.

Zionism was a direct result of Antisemtism. Plain and simple the Jews wanted a state for themselves. The choice of Palestine was highly unfortunate for the Arabs.

Arabs have always been this way. They are a people with a long way to go, before becoming respectable.

Pax

08-05-2002, 02:47 AM

Javanmard (Aug 02, 2002 14:32):
Your points:-

Antisemitism was unfortunate.

Zionism was a direct result of Antisemtism. Plain and simple the Jews wanted a state for themselves. The choice of Palestine was highly unfortunate for the Arabs.

Arabs have always been this way. They are a people with a long way to go, before becoming respectable.

Yeah sure... ;D I see you are true anti-semite (remember "they all are semites")

And Persians, somehow, always find themselves opposite to mainstream beliefs. Let me repeat again, I am not sure of your SHIA background

If they really were as you ostnecibly try to depict them, what about the civilisation that existed upto 13th c. and which was destroyed by mongolian invasion.

Pax

08-05-2002, 02:48 AM

A nice pic!

Without comments...

Pax

08-05-2002, 03:04 AM

Javanmard (Jul 31, 2002 23:29):
Before you start yelling at me, find out these answers:

Where did the word "Allah" come from????

Did Djinn exist in pre-Islamic belief. Have we ever seen Djinn??

"Allah" is an ammalgamated form of "Al-Ilah", which is "The God". And what does it prove if its of arabic origin? Did you know that "alcohol" is also of arabic etymology? the original word is "al-kuhl", "a drink."

Apparently, "Jinn" is a loan word into arabic, maybe from Latin "Genius", which means "a spirit of super-natural abilities."

Is it not strange that all three of the worlds major religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all came to the same people, ie. Semites. When great civilisations were already in existance, (Romans, Persians, Greeks, Aztecs, Eqyptians, Chinese, ) why give all three of your books to a bunch of desert peoples who never contributed anything to the world at all????

All religions are eventually traced back to monoteism.
as for why all three religions have same roots: Well, Semites inhabit the craddle of humanity (or are you going to argue against all archeological fingings?). This might be the explanation.

Why is heaven so pathetic??? Rivers of honey?? Virgins??? To a desert warrior living in the desert 1500 years ago, this may have sounded fantastic. But even a Roman emperor would not have been impressed by this. What the hell are you going to do with a river of honey. You can't swim in it...:)

Koran says "per..."
and you, by your own accord continue it as "..vert", pervert! While the it was meant to be said "..fect", PERFECT!

You are funny boy! Who said that you are going to swim there. But you didn't question this. That was just an opportunity to assault.

These narrations give lively pictures of what will the Heaven look like. Mind you, The Scripture address not only you and me, but common people, the people who live and lived in the past.

javanmard

08-05-2002, 06:26 AM

I am not sure what you mean about the Mongol Invasion. But if its what you do mean, please try to remember that the Mongols were not pretending to be doing the work of God. They were plundering killers and were proud of it!!

Regarding the name of God, Alllah, I think its ridiculous that the creator of the universe has an Arabic name.

Also, your point naming the semites as the founders of civilisation (you not say the Semites but thats what it sounded like) is preposterous. These people have never had civilisation, least of all the desert tribes.

My points about heaven were not made to attack, they were made to draw attention to the fact that heaven is suspiciously tailor made for bedouin warriors.

Honey was extremely rare to the arabs. Women also were in short supply in the Arabian peninsula. That is why they have the gazelle eyed virgins.

Hell is also a very hot place, full of fire, no water and nothing to eat. This is what the Arabs feared the most, heat, dryness, vegitation that held no nutritious value.

Just to give you something to think about Dragoman, did you know that the concepts of heaven and hell are from Zoroastrianism?? But the hell of that religion is very, very, cold, with no warmth and light.......because the Iranians of the mountains feared the snow and the frost. That is another reason why the Zoroastrians revere fire, because it gives them means to make weapons, cook food and provide warmth.

That is interesting is'nt it??

Pax

08-06-2002, 02:32 AM

Javanmard (Aug 05, 2002 06:26):
I am not sure what you mean about the Mongol Invasion. But if its what you do mean, please try to remember that the Mongols were not pretending to be doing the work of God. They were plundering killers and were proud of it!!
How about destruction of Samarqand and Buhara, Horezm by Mongols. They annihilated every book of any content in belief that all that "stuff" contained magic.
It seems your knowledge of Islamic civilzation (though you boast to know it well) sucks. Otherwise you would have known that Mongols destroyed the heritage of ancient civilizations Muslims (by the order of Chaliph Mamun) tried in the one of the greatest libraries in the world.

Regarding the name of God, Alllah, I think its ridiculous that the creator of the universe has an Arabic name.

Arabic is the language of Koran. What's ridiculous in that?

Also, your point naming the semites as the founders of civilisation (you not say the Semites but thats what it sounded like) is preposterous. These people have never had civilisation, least of all the desert tribes.

I never said the semites were founders of civilizations.

Like I said, we say "per-fect" and you get it as "per-vert" >)

My points about heaven were not made to attack, they were made to draw attention to the fact that heaven is suspiciously tailor made for bedouin warriors.

Honey was extremely rare to the arabs. Women also were in short supply in the Arabian peninsula. That is why they have the gazelle eyed virgins.

Hell is also a very hot place, full of fire, no water and nothing to eat. This is what the Arabs feared the most, heat, dryness, vegitation that held no nutritious value.

Speculation!!

Just to give you something to think about Dragoman, did you know that the concepts of heaven and hell are from Zoroastrianism?? But the hell of that religion is very, very, cold, with no warmth and light.......because the Iranians of the mountains feared the snow and the frost. That is another reason why the Zoroastrians revere fire, because it gives them means to make weapons, cook food and provide warmth.

That is interesting is'nt it??

Well, for your information Dt. (in Oriental studies, huh?)Javanmard, Islam has existed from the times of Adam, accoring to Islam. Certainly not all religious were as they are today, but the concept of God, The Day, Hell and Heaven are believed to be the same.

In Koran also there's a verse: "Certainly theres no group of people whom we didn't send a messenger."

So, the fact that there're common traits both in Islam and Zoroastrianism simply proves this understanding. But people, because of their passions tend to change their religions, at accommmodate it to their own perceptions.