“Kazakh Invasion” of Europe – Good Will!

[Prenomad]

Ayrimlar mavzu nomlanishiga piching bilan qarar, lekin bu faqat majoziy ma'noda, ham Kozog'istonning (KZ.) 2010 yildan EHHT tashkilotiga raislik qilishini inobatga olsak, bu bir yaxshi niyat ! :)

KZ. kompaniyalari qushni, ayniqsa, Evropa davlatlariga katta-katta sarmoyalar kiritayapti, kupchilikning bundan xabari bor, albatta. Gapimiz quruq bulib qomasligi uchun, ayrim misollar: Kzning Kazkommertsbank (umumiy assetlari-balansi $24 mlrd., 2005) va BankTuranAlam (sobiq Ittifoq hududida ikkinchi enk katta xususiy bank, assetlari £24 mlrd. ) yaqin yillar ichida Ukraina, Rossiya, Gruziya, Armaniston, Qirg'iziston, Turkiya va Tojikistonga yirik sarmoyalar kiritishdi, bir qancha banklarni sotib olishdi.

KazMunaiGaz yaqinda Ruminiyaning Rompetrol degan kompaniyasining 75% hissasini $2.7 mlrd.ga sotib oldi, buning ichida Ruminiya, Moldaviya, Bolgariya, Gruziya, Ispaniya va Fransiyada joylashgan 630ta yonilg'i quyish shaxobchalari bor.

Mani eng qiziqtiradigani, Kz kompaniyalari g'arbdagi etakchi birjalarga kirib borayapti, uz qimmatbaho qog'ozlarini sotib, yaxshigina mablag' undirishayapti; Kazakhmys (London birjasining eng katta 100 kopaniyalari qatorida turibdi, bozor qiymati bugungi narxlar buyicha salkam $5.9 mlrd., 2005da bitta aksiyasi $11 dollar edi, hozirda $25 dollar atrofida) $1.16 mlrd., KazMunaiGas $2.03 mrld., KazakhGold US$97mln. mablag' undirishdi. Shu oyda Kzni Eurasian Natural Resources Corp kompaniyasi (Kzlik Shodievning katta ulishi bor) London birjasining asosisy bozorida qimmatbaho qog'ozlarini sota boshladi, hozirda kompaniyaning bozor qiymati $7.73 mlrd. atrofida. Kazkommertsbank banki kelasi oylarda qim. qog'ozlarini London birjasiga quymoqchi, salkam $5.3 mlrd. mablag' undirishi kutilayapti, albatta bozordagi vaziyatga qarab. Boshqa kichik Kz kompaniyalari ham chet el birjalarida qimmatbaho qog'ozlarini sotishmoqda.

Gapni qisqasi, Kz kompaniyalari uzoqni kuzlab tezlik bilan qushni bozorlarni egallashmoqda va bu manimcha, asosan President Nursulton Abishevich Nazarboevning aqlli siyosati natijasi, u kishiga mani juda katta hurmatim bor :)

Mani uylantiradigan narsa, Kzdan qolib ketayapmiz orqada bu borada, hali ham iqtisodda “yopiq eshiklar” siyosatini olib borayapmiz. Uzbek gazetalarida Kz tug'risida deyarli yozishmaydi. Rahbarlarimiz esa Kz tug'risidagi xabarlarga salbiy qaraydi, e'tirof etgisi kelmaydi:( Shu tan ola bilmaganimiz va urganishni istamaganimiz uchun orqada qolib ketayapmiz.

Manimcha, tug'ri Kzda muammolar kup, lekin biz Kzning yutuqlaridan g'urulanishimiz va saboq olishimiz kerak.

[Prenomad]

“Kazakh Invasion” of Europe – Good Will!

Some of you may disagree with thread's name, but this is just metaphoric, and due to the fact that Kazakhstan's application for chairing the OSCE in 2010 has been accepted, after all, it is a good will :)

I would like to draw your attention to recent expansion of Kazakh (Kazakhstan's) investment and capital into neighbouring countries, and especially Europe.

For example, Kazkommertsbank (total assets more than $24 billion, 2005) and BankTuranAlam (second biggest private bank in CIS, if am not making mistake, total assets more $24,0 billion, total equity capital amounts $2,97 billion) made several big investments, and now own assets, banks mainly, in Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan, Turkey and Tajikistan.

KazMunaiGaz has recently agreed to buy 75% of Romanian oil firm Rompetrol (for $2.7bn), deal includes 630 petrol stations Romania, Moldova, Bulgaria, Georgia, Spain and France.

Kazakh companies are also successfully entering into world stock markets: Kazakhmys raised $1.16 bln., KazMunaiGas $2.03 bln. and KazakhGold (US$97mln. through IPO's. Eurasian Natural Resources Corp entered LSE's main market this month, and currently has $7.73bn market cap. Kazkommertsbank will list its stocks in London Stock Exchange in coming months, and could raise up to $5.3 bln. Kazakhmys now is one of the blue chip stocks in FTSE 100 with $5.9 bln. (as of 2007/12/19) market value. Other Kazakh companies are also offering their shares in foreign stock exchanges.

To be short, Kazakh companies are expending well at the moment, I think, this all happened mainly due to wise policy of Nursultan Abishebich Nazarbaev, to whom I have a great respect.

Unfortunately, Uzbekistan is not doing enough in this direction, we are far behind, we still have old soviet-style economic policy. One can hardly find any articles on economic development of Kazakhstan in Uzbek media, and our officials negatively react to any such good news from Kz :(. we do not want to acknowledge Kz's success, that's why we are currently loosing.

Instead, we have to be proud of Kazakhstan's current economic success, as we are one nation, and mainly learn the lessons.

[passer_by]

Unfortunately, Uzbekistan is not doing enough in this direction, we are far behind, we still have old soviet-style economic policy. One can hardly find any articles on economic development of Kazakhstan in Uzbek media, and our officials negatively react to any such good news from Kz :(. we do not want to acknowledge Kz's success, that's why we are currently loosing.


Bu forumda ancha muncha odam bu savolga javob bera olmaydi, chunki aqli yetmaydi. Faqat Masanori bilan Darvesh hozir chuntirishib berishadi, o'zbek modelining qozoq iqtisodiy modeliga nisbatan ancha ustunligini. Shung uchun ekspertlar gapirsa biz o'qib tushinsek

[Sag'bonlik_qiz]

“Kazakh Invasion” of Europe – Good Will!

Some of you may disagree with thread's name, but this is just metaphoric, and due to the fact that Kazakhstan's application for chairing the OSCE in 2010 has been accepted, after all, it is a good will :)

I.

Не вдаваясь в подробности по банковской деятельности казахских братьев,замечу, для председательства в ОБСЕ они НЕ готовы и врядли будут готовы к 2010. Даже Испания не совсем хорошо справлялась с обазанностями в этом году, ведь на плечи председателя ложится вся логистика, постоянные комитеты, составление повесток дня, политические компромиссы в кулуарах, разъезды министра и его команды по всей Европе и т.д. Боюсь, что казахская дипломатия далека от тонкостей европейской политики, а кандидатуру буквально вытащила на своем горбу Россия, которой казахам нужно сказать огромное спасибо и кланяться в пояс все эти 2 года до 2010.

Победителя не судят, но Казахстан ждет больше дегтя, чем меда. Когда эйфория пройдет и станет ясно, что среди дипломатов можно едва ли найти свободно говорящих на английском, все встанет на свои места. В силу впитавшегося в кровь трайбализма, непотизма(протекция по блату, выражаясь простым языком) в их ветвях власти еще больше чем в Узбекистане, вердикт, либо надо срочно реформировать МИД и привлекать перспективных молодых людей, либо будет продолжение Бората. Желаю удачи!

[Warrior]

Қозоғистондаги охирги банкларнинг инқирози, яъни ликвидность муаммоси унинг имиджига анча салбий таъсир кўрсатди. Албатта, ривожланиши тўхтаб қолгани йўқ, бироқ анча секинлашди. Бундан буёғига ривожланиши баттар секинлашиши мумкин. Шу пайтгача уларнинг имиджи анча бўрттирилган эди, хозир эса инвесторлар рискларини тўғрироқ баҳолашяпти. Энди чет элда IPO қилиш улар учун олдингидан анча қийинроқ кечади. Бир неча IPOлар бекор қилингалиги хаққида эшитдим. Syndicated Loans, Bonds ва шу каби инструментларга қизиқиш анча сусайган. Қозоқ биродарларимиз олдин анча ўзларидан кетиб қолишган бўлишса, хозир анча шаштлари пасайиб қолган. Бу учун хам минг афсус...
Бу имиджни тиклашга анча вақт кетса керагов.

[Darvesh]

Men ancha vaqtdan beri qozoq sayt va forumlarini kuzataman, ohirgi paytlarda qozoqlar uchun ham qiyin vaqtlar kelgani, butun "iqtisodiy mo'jizasi" PRdan boshqa narsa emasligi aniq bo'lib qoldi. Misol uchun, bugun chop etilgan maqolani va unga kommentariylarni o'qing: Времена “серьезных негативных последствий” настали. (http://zonakz.net/articles/20449)

Umuman olganda, perspektivada baribir biz bu norasmiy millatlar musoqabasida yutib chiqadiganga o'xshaymiz, ko'nglim sezayapti.

[Sag'bonlik_qiz]

Umuman olganda, perspektivada baribir biz bu norasmiy millatlar musoqabasida yutib chiqadiganga o'xshaymiz, ko'nglim sezayapti.

Данные катаклизмы помогут казахстанцам прийти в чувство и перестать "пинать" соседей (все эти понты давно надо было аккуратно пообломать, свернуть в трубочку и засунуть глубоко... в кармашек). Но и мы не должны ждать пока вишни сами упадут к нам в рот. Вот здесь -то и проблема, пока радужных перспектив у нас не видно. А при дальнейшем бездействии мы молчаливо пронаблюдаем кризис казахов и логичный дальнейший подъем.

Дервиш, пока узбеки будут продолжать ездить за длинным рублем в Кз, ни в каком состязании нам первенство не светит.

[Gateway]

FYI. I thought it might be interesting. Having read your posts, I did compare the GDP figures of our country and that of Kazakhstan. According the information given in wikipedia.org Uzbekistan's GDP is $17,2B (World Bank) and Kazakhstan's GDP is $77,2 B for 2006. If we assume that Uzbekistan's GDP will grow at 10% annual rate and Kazakhstan's will stop growing, which is unlikely, my computations show that we will catch them up in 16 years. If Uzbekistan's GDP will grow at 5% annual rate then we will need about 31 years.
I do realize that the GDP is not an absolute indicator in the assessment of an economy's prosperity, but anyway.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

[Warrior]

FYI. I thought it might be interesting. Having read your posts, I did compare the GDP figures of our country and that of Kazakhstan. According the information given in wikipedia.org Uzbekistan's GDP is $17,2B (World Bank) and Kazakhstan's GDP is $77,2 B for 2006. If we assume that Uzbekistan's GDP will grow at 10% annual rate and Kazakhstan's will stop growing, which is unlikely, my computations show that we will catch them up in 16 years. If Uzbekistan's GDP will grow at 5% annual rate then we will need about 31 years.
I do realize that the GDP is not an absolute indicator in the assessment of an economy's prosperity, but anyway.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

If you compare directly the economies of 2 countries and the potential, of course Kazakhstan is much more developed and advanced. No one besides Dervish is saying that Uzbekistan is more advanced than Kazakhstan.

But the point is, recent liquidity crisis in Kazakhstan has hit the banking sector badly. Following 2-3 years will be very difficult for Kazakhs. Because they must repay not only a great amount of money, but also may have a very bad real estate crisis.

Kazakhstan has received a lot of cheap money and started to invest it anywhere they saw a chance (sometimes also strange investment decisions). Real estate is a big example. Because of these investments the prices went up. And most of the buildings, new apartments are empty now, because even despite high income not many people can afford them. So if apartments are not sold, banks won't receive their money back. Hence banks cannot repay their debt duely on time.

But if you want to compare Uz. and Kz. open a new thread.

[uzbekcfa2]

FYI. I thought it might be interesting. Having read your posts, I did compare the GDP figures of our country and that of Kazakhstan. According the information given in wikipedia.org Uzbekistan's GDP is $17,2B (World Bank) and Kazakhstan's GDP is $77,2 B for 2006. If we assume that Uzbekistan's GDP will grow at 10% annual rate and Kazakhstan's will stop growing, which is unlikely, my computations show that we will catch them up in 16 years. If Uzbekistan's GDP will grow at 5% annual rate then we will need about 31 years.
I do realize that the GDP is not an absolute indicator in the assessment of an economy's prosperity, but anyway.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

Gateway, those are nominal GDP's. The way they find gdp estimates fro countries is 1. they choose a benchmark currency such as DOLLAR $. 2. Just convert their gdp in local currency using exchange rates.

This method does not take into account inflation rate, cost of living in those countries etc.

So the best methodology is called GDP based on purchiasing power parity (PPP).

According to IMF's calculations. Kazakhstan's GDP (ppp) is two times more than GDP (PPP) of Uzbekistan. This still is not good for Uzbekistan considering the fact that the population of uzbekistan (26 mln) is almost 10 mln more than the population of KZ (16 mln)

But still if you use nominal GDP comparison like you did, seems like GDP of UZB is 5 times less than GDP of Uzb, which is not true!
Always look at PPP - based gdp, nominal doesnt mean anything, because it does not take into consideration the price of Consumer Basket or inflation rate. Hard to get it. It's simple: the price of the same good is a lot cheaper in Uzb than in KZ.;) But not sure about current skyrocketing prices though.

p.s. here is the list of countries by GDP based on PPP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29)

[uzbekcfa2]

Kazakhs overrate themselves big time. Especially when I watch some "not funny at all" jokes by their KVN team, I just wanna say "why dont you open your korean eyes wider to see the reality".

they had a song, where they say: look at other countries like uzbekistan, tajikistan, kyrgizia and look at us. U dont see we live in paradise?:D...or sth like that.

I think kazakhs should send somebody else to America to bring some cultural learnings of America for the benefit of glory nation Kazakstan. Borat wasnt good enough, I guess:lool:

[Gateway]

So the best methodology is called GDP based on purchiasing power parity (PPP).

According to IMF's calculations. Kazakhstan's GDP (ppp) is two times more than GDP (PPP) of Uzbekistan. This still is not good for Uzbekistan considering the fact that the population of uzbekistan (26 mln) is almost 10 mln more than the population of KZ (16 mln)

But still if you use nominal GDP comparison like you did, seems like GDP of UZB is 5 times less than GDP of Uzb, which is not true!
Always look at PPP - based gdp, nominal doesnt mean anything, because it does not take into consideration the price of Consumer Basket or inflation rate. Hard to get it. It's simple: the price of the same good is a lot cheaper in Uzb than in KZ.;) But not sure about current skyrocketing prices though.

p.s. here is the list of countries by GDP based on PPP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29)

Thank you for your reply. Of course I am aware about GDP by PPP. My objective was not to make a complete analysis or presentation. I just computed using nominal data and found it interesting.
But whatever is the basis of computations nominal, PPP or something else, the fact is we are behind. It will be very hard to catch them up.

[uzbekcfa2]

it's obvious that we are behind. no arguing!
but the question is how far behind?;)

[Demir Kağan]

Wouldn't it be better to sell-buy to/from Turk countries more?

[Tabriz_Han]

Wouldn't it be better for Kazakistan and Oz'bekistan to work together instead of trying to score cheap shots against each other. I hope Kazakistan carries on prospering and that by co-operating with their Southern brothers they can improve the Turkistan region on the whole. Afterall both are Turkic both are Muslim, hopefully we can overcome regional petty issues and focus on the wider picture.

[MUHLIS]

[QUOTE=uzbekcfa2;869562]
очень обидно, ибо нельзя будет свалить все наши беды на советкисй режим и т.д.
Nado eshe otmetit' chto nashi bedi nikak nemogut opravdat' sovetskiy rejim toje, s drugoy storoni.

[Uyyonli]

Wouldn't it be better for Kazakistan and Oz'bekistan to work together instead of trying to score cheap shots against each other. I hope Kazakistan carries on prospering and that by co-operating with their Southern brothers they can improve the Turkistan region on the whole. Afterall both are Turkic both are Muslim, hopefully we can overcome regional petty issues and focus on the wider picture.

Never mine about Muslim in Uzbekistan, we have no hope
with our heretic muslims who likes slay his own brother in the throat with one commend from authorities be it for money or be it for authoroty. :( Islam and it's strength is gone, no gives a proper respect to it :(
But I want to let people know:
When Europe was dying of all kind of ilnesses, deseases, when they wore pig skins as their close, when they stunk like pig, when they were perehistorical people, OUR ancesters creating Algorithms, Algebra, Creating and measuring the Globe of our Earth while wearing very complicated nice warm silk and beautifull clothes. We had the best Architecture, we have the best food, we had the best people, we were united, we were in God's favored side, we were the rulers of all world!!!
Don't follow them Europeans as they have learnt all of their things from us.
So sad Islam is gone from state power :(

[Prenomad]

Не вдаваясь в подробности по банковской деятельности казахских братьев,замечу, для председательства в ОБСЕ они НЕ готовы и врядли будут готовы к 2010... Боюсь, что казахская дипломатия далека от тонкостей европейской политики, а кандидатуру буквально вытащила на своем горбу Россия...

Bu boradagi eng katta masala Evropada xavfsizlik va hamkorlik tashkilotiga (EXHT) raislik qilish huquqini qulga kiritishning ahamiyati. Bu oddiy qilib aytganda, Evropa Ittifoqi tomonidan KZning uz fuqarolarinig yashashi uchun qulay va yaxshiroq sharoitlar yaratish, bozor iqtisodi tamoyillariga amal qilish, turg'un sarmoya muhitini va birmuncha barqaror siyosiy-iqtisodiy tizimni yaratishda muayyan va sezilarli muvaffaqiyatlarga e'rishayotganini e'tirof etilishidir. Bu Markaziy Osiyoda KZ rolining kunga kunga usib borayotgani va uning liderga aylanayotganini qaysidir ma'noda tan olishdir.

Siz mamlakatimiz – Uzbekistonning EXHTga raislik qilishda nomsod bulishi va yutib shiqishini tasavvur qilolasizmi, bu narsa mumkinmi? Hozirgi hukumat bilan buning million yilda ham iloji yuq!

KZ EXHTga railik qilishga ayni damda tayyormi? Albatta, yuq, lekin bu boshqa masala. Men KZ hukumati bunga jiddiy tayyorgarlik kuradi deb uylayman, va muvaffaqqiyatga erishadi deb umid qilaman.

[Prenomad]

Не вдаваясь в подробности по банковской деятельности казахских братьев,замечу, для председательства в ОБСЕ они НЕ готовы и врядли будут готовы к 2010... Боюсь, что казахская дипломатия далека от тонкостей европейской политики, а кандидатуру буквально вытащила на своем горбу Россия...

The main argument is bidding and winning the chairmanship of OSCE. This is an acknowledgment by the European Union that Kazakhstan making some good progress on creating better living conditions for its citizens, developing the market economy, good investment climate and political-economic system. This is a firm acknowledgment of Kazakhtan's important role and leadership in the political-economic stability and development of Central Asia.

Can you imagine Uzbekistan submitting an application for such a chairmanship and wining it? No, with current government, even in a million years.

Is Kazakhstan ready to chair the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe? Of course, not. But this is a different issue. I firmly believe, there will be serious preparation for it in coming years by Kazakh government, and I hope they will succeed.

[Prenomad]

...Когда эйфория пройдет и станет ясно, что среди дипломатов можно едва ли найти свободно говорящих на английском, все встанет на свои места. В силу впитавшегося в кровь трайбализма, непотизма(протекция по блату, выражаясь простым языком) в их ветвях власти еще больше чем в Узбекистане...

KZ diplomatlari orasida inglizchani mukammal biladiganlar, manimcha, siz aytganchalik oz darajada emas:)

Traybalism va qarindosh-urug'chilik albatta jiddiy muammo, bu jamijatda korrupsiyasining avj olishiga olib keladi. Lekin biz bir narsani yodda saqlashimiz lozimki, traybalism, urug'-aymoqchilik yillar davomida Sharqdagi siyosiy tizimlarning ajralmas bulagi-xususiyati bulib kelgan, bu zamonaviy KZga ham tegishli. Bu narsa, masalan, Birlashgan Arab Amirliklarida ham asosiy siyosiy unsurdir.

Boshqa tomondan, eng muhim masala - traybalism jamiyat va davlat rivojlanishiga hissa qusha oladimi yoki tusiq buladimi?! KZ misolida aytishimiz mumkinki, ma'lum ma'noda traybalism KZ rivojlanishiga juda katta tusiq bulmayapti. KZda traybalism oddiy insonlarga ham yaxshiroq kun kechirishga, erkin mehnat qilishga va boylik ortirishga imkoniyat yaratib berayapti. KZ traybalismi "besh qulini og'ziga tiqayotgani yuq", uzini ham, oddiy aholini ham uylayapti.

Traybalism qachonki hokimayatda hukmron bulgan urug' va klan tomonidan faqat uz maqsadlari yulida foydalanishda ishlatilsa, uta beqarorlashtiruvchi kuchga aylanadi.

KZ traybalismi uta repressive va criminal xaraterga ega emas.., shu uchun ham bunga chidash mumkin.

[Kolobok]

Kazakhs are doing very well indeed,I have worked on their product "Snow Queen" vodka,which has taken UK market by storm and is challenging main vodka players as Belvedere and Grey Goose. As fas as I can remember Kazakhmys is listed in FTSE 100.
We should learn some...

[Frida]

Never mine about Muslim in Uzbekistan, we have no hope
with our heretic muslims who likes slay his own brother in the throat with one commend from authorities be it for money or be it for authoroty. :( Islam and it's strength is gone, no gives a proper respect to it :(
But I want to let people know:
When Europe was dying of all kind of ilnesses, deseases, when they wore pig skins as their close, when they stunk like pig, when they were perehistorical people, OUR ancesters creating Algorithms, Algebra, Creating and measuring the Globe of our Earth while wearing very complicated nice warm silk and beautifull clothes. We had the best Architecture, we have the best food, we had the best people, we were united, we were in God's favored side, we were the rulers of all world!!!
Don't follow them Europeans as they have learnt all of their things from us.
So sad Islam is gone from state power :(


:sleepy: Uyyonli, get over it. What you are saying is a usual thing that some muslims say all the time, in order to show how beautiful our past was and the stinky europeans learned everything from us. Time to start looking at the future not the past. Past will never come back.

Also, remember that Muslim culture in some way was influenced by European culture too. Where do you think early muslim philosophers got majority of their ideas? Think Plato, think Aristotle and Socrates and many more. Culture cannot develop by itself. It is always influenced and will be influenced. Right now Europe ahead of us with technology, medicine, and many more. You cannot ignore all of it. You cannot stop learning. What you are telling is just nonsense. If many centuries ago Europeans learned from us and achieved their own Renaissance -- good for them! they must be smart -- cause they learned! Don't you think now is our turn? Cause no doubt that we NEED to learn and learn a lot. No doubt!

ON: go Kazakhs! :) The fact they are going to chair this OSCE thing might lead to some changes in this country. They need to show that by assigning the chairmanship OSCE did not make a mistake. They'll try to prove it, so they might end up making some changes. Hopefully.