Timurids=Uzbeks?

[Qarama]

I don't know if this is offensive but i always wondered myself why Amir Timur for example is a national hero in Uzbekistan. Because he founded the Timurid empire? but hadn't the Uzbeks wiped the Timurids out of Uzbekistan? Because of that, the Timurids founded an other empire the Moghul empire in India.

Sorry if i offended anyone but i am very interested in history and want to know that.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Amir_Temur.jpg/200px-Amir_Temur.jpg

[melo]

I don't know if this is offensive but i always wondered myself why Amir Timur for example is a national hero in Uzbekistan. Because he founded the Timurid empire? but hadn't the Uzbeks wiped the Timurids out of Uzbekistan? Because of that, the Timurids founded an other empire the Moghul empire in India.

Sorry if i offended anyone but i am very interested in history and want to know that.

I think it is a good question too actually. From my understanding Amir Timur always tried to claim ancestry to Mongols also. Maybe the point is just that his birthplace and later capital were both in present day Uzbekistan.

[erkak#1]

I don't know if this is offensive but i always wondered myself why Amir Timur for example is a national hero in Uzbekistan. Because he founded the Timurid empire? but hadn't the Uzbeks wiped the Timurids out of Uzbekistan? Because of that, the Timurids founded an other empire the Moghul empire in India.

Sorry if i offended anyone but i am very interested in history and want to know that.

Uzbeks came with Shayboniykhon, who kicked out Bobur, descendant of Amir Temur, from Central Asia.

Shayboniykhon was Uzbek, and he is the one who starts the name Uzbek. Uzbeks are not actual residents of central asia, and they come from the north. Central Asian people were called Turkic people, and so was Amir Temur and his descendant Bobur. Bobur did not start the Moghul empire in India, he started the Baburid empire. Indians mostly knew Bobur as moghul, because he was moghul from his mother's side. This is why Baburid empire is known as Moghul empire... because of those Indians! :evil: :-D

P.S.: Bobur never liked Moghuls, because of his uncle.

[Qarama]

Moghul is the Persian word for Mongol am i right?

[erkak#1]

Moghul is the Persian word for Mongol am i right?

I think, you're right... but in the uzbek history book for schools they wrote that Mongols and Moghuls are different nations. :-D I didn't get it, and asked the teacher how is it possible that they are different nations, and the answer was - "Mongols are the people who live in Mongolia. Moghuls were the people who came with Genghiz khan" :-D dumbass... :-D

[Qarama]

I think so too... but in the uzbek history book for schools they wrote that Mongols and Moghuls are different nations. :-D I didn't get it, and asked the teacher how is it possible that they are different nations, and the answer was - "Mongols are the people who live in Mongolia. Moghuls were the people who came with Genghiz khan" :-D dumbass... :-D



very logical :rolleyes:

http://s4.directupload.net/images/080124/xngehtd8.jpg

[MUHLIS]

1. Temuriylar, descendants of Amir Temur.
2. Amir Temur was not a Mongol, but at the same time claimed to be descended from Chengizxan. He was from a Barlos tribe, which is a Turkic tribe.
3. An overwhelming majority of Chengizxan's army and military officers were Turks, not Mongols. Barlos was a tribe than came with Mongol expansion, but they were Turks. Therefore (i.e. because of the fact Barlos came with Mongol invasion), Temur claimed descendancy from Chengizxan in his later life.
4. In his early years however, it was obvious that he did not have a Mongol blood. He married a Mongol widow of Tog'luq Temur, his major compititor in his early years of struggle for power, to have a blood relation to Mongols. Therefore he received a title of "Tarag'ay" a "son in law".
5. It may also be true that Temur genuinely believed that Chengizxan was a Turk, not Mongol. His famous statement "We are the ruler and owner of Turan, we are starting branch of Turks." This may be true because the real name of Chengizxan was Temurchi(n), which is blacksmith in Turkic and has no meaning in Mongolian. Chengiz/Tengiz meant wast, huge, powerful, etc in old turkic language and in modernt turkic languages Tengiz/Dengiz means sea.
6. According to Gerasimov's study of Amir Temur's skleton and skull, he was red and curly bearded, fair skinned tall man with one leg being shorter than the other. His morphological structure suggested that he was not a Mongol.
to be continued.

[MUHLIS]

Moghul is the Persian word for Mongol am i right?
Where did you get the "Persian" from? Mo'g'ul is how Turks called Mongols. They called themselves "Halha".

[melo]

I have a general history question somehwat related to our topic. How old is Andijon and during the time of Amir Temir who controlled it? As far as I can tell it was outside of his empire, but I can not figure out why.

[Qarama]

1. Temuriylar, descendants of Amir Temur.
2. Amir Temur was not a Mongol, but at the same time claimed to be descended from Chengizxan. He was from a Barlos tribe, which is a Turkic tribe.
3. An overwhelming majority of Chengizxan's army and military officers were Turks, not Mongols. Barlos was a tribe than came with Mongol expansion, but they were Turks. Therefore (i.e. because of the fact Barlos came with Mongol invasion), Temur claimed descendancy from Chengizxan in his later life.
4. In his early years however, it was obvious that he did not have a Mongol blood. He married a Mongol widow of Tog'luq Temur, his major compititor in his early years of struggle for power, to have a blood relation to Mongols. Therefore he received a title of "Tarag'ay" a "son in law".
5. It may also be true that Temur genuinely believed that Chengizxan was a Turk, not Mongol. His famous statement "We are the ruler and owner of Turan, we are starting branch of Turks." This may be true because the real name of Chengizxan was Temurchi(n), which is blacksmith in Turkic and has no meaning in Mongolian. Chengiz/Tengiz meant wast, huge, powerful, etc in old turkic language and in modernt turkic languages Tengiz/Dengiz means sea.
6. According to Gerasimov's study of Amir Temur's skleton and skull, he was red and curly bearded, fair skinned tall man with one leg being shorter than the other. His morphological structure suggested that he was not a Mongol.
to be continued.

i am reading this book at the moment
http://www.hermeskitap.com/catalog/images/nopg3zp.jpg
in this book it is written that the title Khan was only used by Genghis Khan's family members. This is why Amir Timur never used that title.

Where did you get the "Persian" from? Mo'g'ul is how Turks called Mongols. They called themselves "Halha".

"...The Persians refer to his dynasty as mughal, meaning Mongol"
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab99

[MUHLIS]

I have a general history question somehwat related to our topic. How old is Andijon and during the time of Amir Temir who controlled it? As far as I can tell it was outside of his empire, but I can not figure out why.
Andijon was not a significant city in those times. Local warlords who were loyal to Temur were in charge in Ferghana valley. The major cities of the valley in those times were: Quva, Axsikent, Margilon, Ho'jand, O'ratepa, etc. Babur's father, Umarshayh Mirzo (Temur's son) was the ruler of Ferghana muzafat (region) and he ruled from Axsikent. He died in an accident when a tower, where he was at, collapsed.

[MUHLIS]

i am reading this book at the moment
http://www.hermeskitap.com/catalog/images/nopg3zp.jpg
in this book it is written that the title Khan was only used by Genghis Khan's family members. This is why Amir Timur never used that title.



"...The Persians refer to his dynasty as mughal, meaning Mongol"
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab99

That is a good point. But I don't think anyone on Earth could have objected to Temur if he chose to use any title for himself. Along with being a ruler, Temur was also a devout Muslim and preferred Muslim Amir over Khan or Hakan.
Mo'g'ul, that is whant Turks called the Mongols, "Mughal" is another variation of Mo'g'ul.
The picture doesn't represent Temur's view objectively and highly prejudiced.

[Qarama]

Some Timurid pictures (they are big!) from Osprey books
http://s3.directupload.net/images/080124/yt5vnuxt.jpg
http://s5.directupload.net/images/080124/npj45hlu.jpg
http://s3.directupload.net/images/080124/a7b77482.jpg
http://s1.directupload.net/images/080124/3txeote6.jpg
http://s5.directupload.net/images/080124/xcrgr4aw.jpg

[Qarama]

"The Uzbeks were a Turkic community on the steppes of Central Asia west of the Caspian Sea, which first rose to prominence in the early 15th century for overthrowing Timur's successors from the Chagatai Khanate. They claimed to be descendants of Sheiban, a brother of the original Golden Horde ruler, Batu Khan, and they had adopted Islam before the Mongol invasions of the 13th century.

By the time Ismail I became Shah of Persia under the Safavid dynasty, the Uzbeks had built a powerful empire of their own in Central Asia. They controlled the main Islamic Central Asian cities of Bukhara, Samarkand, Kabul, and Herat, and they successfully resisted the frequent attempts by Babur, the future founder of the Mughal Empire in India, to capture Samarkand. In 1508, the Uzbeks ousted the last Timurid ruler from Khurasan, an eastern province of Persia, and occupied it. In 1510, however, Shah Ismail brought his loyal Qizilbash army to meet the Uzbeks at Khurasan, and the ensuing battle proved devastating to the Uzbeks. Their ruler was killed, and they were forced to give up Khurasan, including the artistically renowned city of Herat, to the Safavids.

Throughout the 16th century the Uzbeks remained a major Safavid enemy, and Khurasan changed hands many more times after battles between the two. Often, the Uzbeks would take advantage of Safavid preoccupation with its other major enemy, the Ottoman Empire to the west, to launch an invasion from the east. The dilemma of how to adequately defend its two fronts was one that the Safavids never entirely solved. "
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/empires/safavid/ismail.html

[Kalon Bek]

Nima farqi bor Uzbekmi boshqami? Temuriylar tilida gapirsak, Temuriylar yashagan va bunyod qilgan shaharlarda yashasak, Temuriylar madaniyati bizni madaniyatimiz bulsa... Umuman nomimizni Uzbekligini hisobga olmasak hammayogimiz Temuriylar bilan bir hil. Nomimizni Uzbek bulishiga ham mamlakatni Uzbekiston bulishiga ham aslida Ruslar sababchi aks holda nomimiz Turkiston millatimiz turk bulishi kerak edi. Lekin mani fikrimcha bularni hammasi ortda qoldi va Temuriylar kim yoki Uzbeklar kim deb mazgi komposirovat qimasdan realniy problemalar bilan shugullanish kerak. Lichno manga farqi yoq Temuriylar Uzbekmi yoki yoqmi! Man uchun asosiy narsa ertangi kun. Mani Temuriylar Uzbeklarmi yoki yoqmi degan savoldan kura Uzbekiston world cup 2010 ga borishi kuproq qiziqtiradi.

Hullas hammaga omad )

[Emil_Diniyev]

"The Uzbeks were a Turkic community on the west of the Caspian Sea,

West of the Caspian Sea? West of the Caspian sea are Caucasus (Azerbaijan and Dagestan). Uzbekistan are East of Caspian Sea.

[uzbekcfa2]

Ok, here is the thing. There were so many battles, occupations and colonizations on this land. The land between Amu Darya and Sir darya. So nobody exactly can say for sure. But both temurids and sheybanids can be uzbek ancestors.

[erkak#1]

Ok, here is the thing. There were so many battles, occupations and colonizations on this land. The land between Amu Darya and Sir darya. So nobody exactly can say for sure. But both temurids and sheybanids can be uzbek ancestors.

I would suggest you to read "Baburname" :)

[Uyyonli]

Temuriylar bizlar bulganmiz ;) yoki bizlar Temuriylar bulganmiz. Va Temuriylar o'zlarini Turk hisoblashgan, huddi shunday qilib Shayboniylar ham o'zni Turk deb atashgan, demak ular ham Turkiy tilda gapirshgan... Shunday qilib biz Turkiy millatdirmiz.
Xorazm esa boshqa gap...

[uzbekcfa2]

I would suggest you to read "Baburname" :)


good suggestion. :D

[Uyyonli]

good suggestion. :D

do you know where to get that?

[Dr_Didro]

1. Temuriylar, descendants of Amir Temur.
2. Amir Temur was not a Mongol, but at the same time claimed to be descended from Chengizxan. He was from a Barlos tribe, which is a Turkic tribe.
3. An overwhelming majority of Chengizxan's army and military officers were Turks, not Mongols. Barlos was a tribe than came with Mongol expansion, but they were Turks. Therefore (i.e. because of the fact Barlos came with Mongol invasion), Temur claimed descendancy from Chengizxan in his later life.
4. In his early years however, it was obvious that he did not have a Mongol blood. He married a Mongol widow of Tog'luq Temur, his major compititor in his early years of struggle for power, to have a blood relation to Mongols. Therefore he received a title of "Tarag'ay" a "son in law".
5. It may also be true that Temur genuinely believed that Chengizxan was a Turk, not Mongol. His famous statement "We are the ruler and owner of Turan, we are starting branch of Turks." This may be true because the real name of Chengizxan was Temurchi(n), which is blacksmith in Turkic and has no meaning in Mongolian. Chengiz/Tengiz meant wast, huge, powerful, etc in old turkic language and in modernt turkic languages Tengiz/Dengiz means sea.
6. According to Gerasimov's study of Amir Temur's skleton and skull, he was red and curly bearded, fair skinned tall man with one leg being shorter than the other. His morphological structure suggested that he was not a Mongol.
to be continued.

Hammasini juda chiroyli olib keldingizku, shu ohiriga borib sal o'xshamadi :)

Birinchidan Amir Temurning bobosi qoni Chengizxon ukasiga borib taqaladi (ayrim manbalarda o'zigacha ham olib borishgan, biroq tarixiy qo'lyozmalarga qaraganda, Chengizxon ukasi halok bo'lgach uning zavjasiga uylangan, shu bilan farzanlariga otalik ham qilgan). Shajarasini o'rganib chiqishni maslaxat beraman.

Ikkinchidan, Chengiz ismining etimologiyasi dengizga emas, turkcha cengiz (jengiz o'qiladi) so'ziga y'ani o'zbekchaga tarjima qilsangiz jangchi ma'nosiga to'g'ri keladi. Shu sabab nazariyangiz yanglish erur birodar. Amir Temurda turkiy qon bo'lishi mumkin biroq dominant qon mug'uliy bo'lgan. A endi mug'ullar o'sha davrda hozirgi Sharqiy Turkiston va Xitoy shimolida yashaganini hisobga oladigan bo'lsak unda Turkiylikni da'vo qilib, olib kelsa bo'ladi. Ammo turklarning o'z qayerdan tarqalganmiz deyishiga e'tibor berganmisiz? Sharqiy Turkiston ya'ni o'sha uyg'ur qabilalariga borib taqaladi. Quyosh sharqdan g'arbga botgani singari, taraqqiyot ham sharqdan yoyilgan.

Shu sabab bu borada baxslar hali beri tugamaydi! ;)

[Dr_Didro]

Moghul is the Persian word for Mongol am i right?

No it's not persian or turkic word. it's actually chinese word. :shock: I will write in Cyrillic to give you that spice:

Происходит из китайского слово маньчжур, который еще звучит как манжур или мангул, мангур ( поскольку в Китае звуки "л" и "р" часто не различаются) что в переводе из древне китайксого означает = великий. Монгольское империя означала Великая Империя!

Так что вот так ;)

[Uyyonli]

No it's not persian or turkic word. it's actually chinese word. :shock: I will write in Cyrillic to give you that spice:

Происходит из китайского слово маньчжур, который еще звучит как манжур или мангул, мангур ( поскольку в Китае звуки "л" и "р" часто не различаются) что в переводе из древне китайксого означает = великий. Монгольское империя означала Великая Империя!

Так что вот так ;)
he doesn't understand Russian sorry

[Dr_Didro]

he doesn't understand Russian sorry

Well brother than can you explain him what I just wrote :) thanks in advance!

Ok, will do myself :D Mongol, comes from Chinese word - Manjur, Manchjur which means the Great... So Mongolian empire meant The Great Empire!

[erkak#1]

Well brother than can you explain him what I just wrote :) thanks in advance!

Ok, will do myself :D Mongol, comes from Chinese word - Manjur, Manchjur which means the Great... So Mongolian empire meant The Great Empire!

I read that Genghiz meant "great"? :rolleyes:
And Gengiz khan was, Buyuk xon? :rolleyes:

[Kalon Bek]

Hammasini juda chiroyli olib keldingizku, shu ohiriga borib sal o'xshamadi :)

Birinchidan Amir Temurning bobosi qoni Chengizxon ukasiga borib taqaladi (ayrim manbalarda o'zigacha ham olib borishgan, biroq tarixiy qo'lyozmalarga qaraganda, Chengizxon ukasi halok bo'lgach uning zavjasiga uylangan, shu bilan farzanlariga otalik ham qilgan). Shajarasini o'rganib chiqishni maslaxat beraman.

Ikkinchidan, Chengiz ismining etimologiyasi dengizga emas, turkcha cengiz (jengiz o'qiladi) so'ziga y'ani o'zbekchaga tarjima qilsangiz jangchi ma'nosiga to'g'ri keladi. Shu sabab nazariyangiz yanglish erur birodar. Amir Temurda turkiy qon bo'lishi mumkin biroq dominant qon mug'uliy bo'lgan. A endi mug'ullar o'sha davrda hozirgi Sharqiy Turkiston va Xitoy shimolida yashaganini hisobga oladigan bo'lsak unda Turkiylikni da'vo qilib, olib kelsa bo'ladi. Ammo turklarning o'z qayerdan tarqalganmiz deyishiga e'tibor berganmisiz? Sharqiy Turkiston ya'ni o'sha uyg'ur qabilalariga borib taqaladi. Quyosh sharqdan g'arbga botgani singari, taraqqiyot ham sharqdan yoyilgan.

Shu sabab bu borada baxslar hali beri tugamaydi! ;)

Eto sporniy vopross. myagko govorya ya s toboy ne soglasen faylasuf. Temur uzini turk hisoblagan. Mogullarni gegemonligiga nuqta quygan ham Temur. Hullas uni mogul deb atash ham tugri mas. Temuriylarni birortasi uzini mogul deb atamagan. Hozir bizni tarihimiz uzgarmasdan Urta osiyo Turkistonligicha qolganida Temurni butun jahon turk deb atagan bular edi.

P.S Elchohonada bulgan new year party bormiding?

[MUHLIS]

West of the Caspian Sea? West of the Caspian sea are Caucasus (Azerbaijan and Dagestan). Uzbekistan are East of Caspian Sea.
Your posts have become some sort of an eyesore with your "Caucasus" paranoia.
Read some history before posting here.
Good luck.

[Dr_Didro]

Eto sporniy vopross. myagko govorya ya s toboy ne soglasen faylasuf. Temur uzini turk hisoblagan. Mogullarni gegemonligiga nuqta quygan ham Temur. Hullas uni mogul deb atash ham tugri mas. Temuriylarni birortasi uzini mogul deb atamagan. Hozir bizni tarihimiz uzgarmasdan Urta osiyo Turkistonligicha qolganida Temurni butun jahon turk deb atagan bular edi.

P.S Elchohonada bulgan new year party bormiding?

Izzat-hurmat talab emasmanu ammo siz bilan sanlashga hali o'tmagan edik adashmasam. Tilingiz sizga bormayotgan bo'lsa bemalol, qarshiligim yo'q. :shock:

Elchixona bayramida yo'q edim, o'zbeklar g'iybatxonasidan uzoqroq yurishga harakat qilaman ;)

Temurni mug'ullar gegemonligiga nuqta qo'ydi deganizni, Karimovni sovet hukumatidan keyingi siyosati bilan taqqoslash mumkin. Bayroq o'zgardi ammo bayroqdor o'sha-o'sha!

Temurni ko'rgani ko'zi yo'q, otgani o'qi yo'q xalq bu - turklar. Yevropadey yog'liq joydan ayirgani uchun. Chig'atoy, jaloir, barlos bu turklashgan mug'ul qabilalari hisoblanadi.

Dalil sifatida mana bunga bir ko'z yugurtirib chiqishni maslaxat beraman:
http://www.library.cjes.ru/online/?a=con&b_id=416&c_id=4483

Turkiston saqlanib qolishi katta masala edi, sabab Xitoy va Rossiya o'zaro fitna uyushtirib bo'lginchilikni targ'ib qilgan. Avvalo o'sha etnogenezdagi tafovvutlar sababchi. Xalq orasida sotqinlar ko'p. Bundan tashqari ko'chmanchilik va o'troqlik ham ziddiyat yaratgan.

Shu sabab Amir Temurni mug'ul deydi turklar ham yevropaliklar ham boshqalar ham... u bizdagi fobiya uni turkiy deb chaqirishga aslida mug'ullardan tarqalganini tan olmaslikka itaradi.

[Dr_Didro]

I read that Genghiz meant "great"? :rolleyes:
And Gengiz khan was, Buyuk xon? :rolleyes:



Because he was also called Mongol Khan, which means Great Khan.

[erkak#1]

Because he was also called Mongol Khan, which means Great Khan.

LOL. Man etmoqchi edimki Chingizni tarjimasi buyuk deb. Buyuk xonni esa o'zim tarjima qilgan edim. :D

Siz qaysi manbaadan olib gapirganingizni bilmadim-u, ammo ko'p dunyo kitoblarida Chingizni "buyuk" deb tarjima qilishgan. :)

[MUHLIS]

Birinchidan Amir Temurning bobosi qoni Chengizxon ukasiga borib taqaladi (ayrim manbalarda o'zigacha ham olib borishgan, biroq tarixiy qo'lyozmalarga qaraganda, Chengizxon ukasi halok bo'lgach uning zavjasiga uylangan, shu bilan farzanlariga otalik ham qilgan). Shajarasini o'rganib chiqishni maslaxat beraman.
Siz aynan qaysi ukasi va qaysi "manbalar" haqida gapiryapsiz? Quyidagi manbaga qarasangiz Chingiz va uning uluslari shajaris ko'rsatib qo'yilgan. Ana o'shalarnng aynan qaysi biriga borib taqaladi ekan Amir (Temur Xon emas) shajarasi?
Timur claimed direct descent from Jenghiz Khan through the house of Chagatai. He was born at Kesh (the Green city), about fifty miles south of Sarmarkand in 1336, a son of a lesser chief of the Barlas tribe. (http://rbedrosian.com/mongc1.htm)
Xa, Temur da'vo qilgan, ammo kelib chiqishi esa Barlos qabilasiga borib taqaladi.

Ikkinchidan, Chengiz ismining etimologiyasi dengizga emas, turkcha cengiz (jengiz o'qiladi) so'ziga y'ani o'zbekchaga tarjima qilsangiz jangchi ma'nosiga to'g'ri keladi. Shu sabab nazariyangiz yanglish erur birodar. Siz meni haq-nohaqligimni isbotlayman debsizku, lekin baribir TURKIY misol keltirib qo'yibsiz. Ali Ho'ja-Ho'ja Ali. Asosiy nazariya - Chingiz ismi TURKIYcha ekanini inkor eta olmabsiz.

Amir Temurda turkiy qon bo'lishi mumkin biroq dominant qon mug'uliy bo'lgan. A endi mug'ullar o'sha davrda hozirgi Sharqiy Turkiston va Xitoy shimolida yashaganini hisobga oladigan bo'lsak unda Turkiylikni da'vo qilib, olib kelsa bo'ladi.
1. Turklik qon bilan belgilanmaydi. Turklik urf-odat, til, madaniyat, va o'zlikni qanday anglash bilan belgilanadi.
2. Temur aniq va tiniq aytib qo'ygan o'zining kimligini. "Biz Turkning bosh bo'g'inimiz" degan zotning Turk yoki Turk emasligidan baxs etishni kaltabinlik deb hisoblayman.

Ammo turklarning o'z qayerdan tarqalganmiz deyishiga e'tibor berganmisiz? Sharqiy Turkiston ya'ni o'sha uyg'ur qabilalariga borib taqaladi.
Turklarning ilk maskanlari O'rol/Oltoy Tog' tizmalari, va hozirgi Mo'g'uliston hududagi O'rxon vodiysi ("so'ylasin O'rhun xati" degan ekan Erkin Vohidov) bo'lgan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples Shu linkdagi narsalarni diqqat bilan o'qib chiqsangiz juda katta foydasi bo'ladi. Turklar ko'p sonli qabilalardan iborat bo'lgan va shuning uchun Sharqiy Turkistondagi arxeologik topilmalar Oltoy va Mo'g'ulistondagi topilmalarni bekor qila olmaydi, ayniqsa ular eramizdan oldingi 9 ming yilliklarga oid bo'lsa!!!!

[Dr_Didro]

LOL. Man etmoqchi edimki Chingizni tarjimasi buyuk deb. Buyuk xonni esa o'zim tarjima qilgan edim. :D

Siz qaysi manbaadan olib gapirganingizni bilmadim-u, ammo ko'p dunyo kitoblarida Chingizni "buyuk" deb tarjima qilishgan. :)



Tarixchi, epigrafist olim Johann Wilhelm Adolf Kirchoff (1826-1908) kitoblaridan oldim. Muxlis Chengizni - dengizga tenglashtirgani uchun noto'g'ri etimologik yondashuv deganim edi.

Chengizxon asli ismi Timuchin. Ti xitoy tilida - temir, po'lat degani, mochin, muchin esa Mu katta, Chin (hozirgi xitoy xalqi) Ko'chma ma'nosi demak Temir Xitoylik bo'ladi. (Amir Timurning ismi ham shundan kelib chiqqan)

In Chinese yes you are right Chengiz Khan means, Chingiz=emperor of emperors which comes as the great. But I was trying to explain Turkic etymology. Anyway Chengiz was kinda title at that time, like marshal, general, colonel nowadays.

[MUHLIS]

Temurni mug'ullar gegemonligiga nuqta qo'ydi deganizni, Karimovni sovet hukumatidan keyingi siyosati bilan taqqoslash mumkin. Bayroq o'zgardi ammo bayroqdor o'sha-o'sha!
Juda ham qiziq o'xshatish qilibsiz. Ammo Amir Temur o'z imperiyasiga asos solganligining o'zi Mo'g'ul Imperiyasining tugaganligini bildiradi.


Temurni ko'rgani ko'zi yo'q, otgani o'qi yo'q xalq bu - turklar. Yevropadey yog'liq joydan ayirgani uchun.
Keling, conspiracy theory larni o'zimizda saqlab turaylik, rahmat.

Chig'atoy, jaloir, barlos bu turklashgan mug'ul qabilalari hisoblanadi.
Chig'atoy qabila emas Ulus (Mo'g'ullar bo'lib boshqargan o'lkalar, Chingizning o'g'lining ismi). Qanaqasiga qabila bo'lib qoldi bu? Tushuntirib bera olasizmi? Barlos qabilasi Chingizxon armiyasi bilan birga kelganligining o'zigina, bu qabila "turklashgan mo'g'ul" qabilasi ekanini isbotlash uchun yetarli emas.
Dalil sifatida mana bunga bir ko'z yugurtirib chiqishni maslaxat beraman:
http://www.library.cjes.ru/online/?a=con&b_id=416&c_id=4483
"Dalilingiz"dagi "Turk va mo'gul qabilalari" jadvalida "TURK" nima qilib yuribdi? Turk Turk qabilasi ekanmi? Ma'lumot qay tarzda va nima maqsadda va kim tomonidan yig'ilganini ham hisobga oldingizmi? Masalan:
1. Ko'rinish: "Sen kimsan?"; "Barlos"; "Bar-looos, yozib qo'ydik, bo'ldi ketaver!"
2. Ko'rinish: "Sen kimsan?"; "Barlos"; "Ho'p, barlos, lekin Turkmisan, Mo'g'ulmisan, kimsan?", "Ha, shunaqa demaysizmi, Turkman (yoki Mo'g'ulman) albatta".

[Dr_Didro]

Siz aynan qaysi ukasi va qaysi "manbalar" haqida gapiryapsiz? Quyidagi manbaga qarasangiz Chingiz va uning uluslari shajaris ko'rsatib qo'yilgan. Ana o'shalarnng aynan qaysi biriga borib taqaladi ekan Amir (Temur Xon emas) shajarasi?
Timur claimed direct descent from Jenghiz Khan through the house of Chagatai. He was born at Kesh (the Green city), about fifty miles south of Sarmarkand in 1336, a son of a lesser chief of the Barlas tribe. (http://rbedrosian.com/mongc1.htm)
Xa, Temur da'vo qilgan, ammo kelib chiqishi esa Barlos qabilasiga borib taqaladi.

Siz meni haq-nohaqligimni isbotlayman debsizku, lekin baribir TURKIY misol keltirib qo'yibsiz. Ali Ho'ja-Ho'ja Ali. Asosiy nazariya - Chingiz ismi TURKIYcha ekanini inkor eta olmabsiz.


1. Turklik qon bilan belgilanmaydi. Turklik urf-odat, til, madaniyat, va o'zlikni qanday anglash bilan belgilanadi.
2. Temur aniq va tiniq aytib qo'ygan o'zining kimligini. "Biz Turkning bosh bo'g'inimiz" degan zotning Turk yoki Turk emasligidan baxs etishni kaltabinlik deb hisoblayman.


Turklarning ilk maskanlari O'rol/Oltoy Tog' tizmalari, va hozirgi Mo'g'uliston hududagi O'rxon vodiysi ("so'ylasin O'rhun xati" degan ekan Erkin Vohidov) bo'lgan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples Shu linkdagi narsalarni diqqat bilan o'qib chiqsangiz juda katta foydasi bo'ladi. Turklar ko'p sonli qabilalardan iborat bo'lgan va shuning uchun Sharqiy Turkistondagi arxeologik topilmalar Oltoy va Mo'g'ulistondagi topilmalarni bekor qila olmaydi, ayniqsa ular eramizdan oldingi 9 ming yilliklarga oid bo'lsa!!!!

Insoni aziz, Muhlis! Chingiz xitoycha so'z yuqoridagi postimni o'qing. Turk so'zlari asli xitoy so'zlaridan olinganini isbotlovchi dalillarni Adolf Kirchoff allaqachon isbotlab bergan. Malol kelamasa filologik tahlilga mansub asarlaridan birini olib o'qib chiqing. Aniq nomini eslasam sizga aytaman.

Agar xitoy tilini bilganizda siz bilan gaplashishim oson bo'lardi :D Masalan xitoy tilidagi "you" so'zi turkiy tilga "on" bo'lib keyinchalik o'ng ruchsa praviy (ma'nosida), 'zuo, suo so'zlari esa "so'l" - chap bo'lib qorishib ketgan.

Xitoyliklar suvni - shui deydi. Amakini (akani) boi, turkchada bey! O'sha barlos, chig'atoy kabi mug'ul qabilalari turkiylasha boshlaganida o'sha so'zlar ham kirib kelgan. Ya'ni siz aytgan biz turklarning bosh bo'g'inimiz gapining tagida, o'sha sharqdan kelganmiz, Sharqiy Turkistonliklarga, mug'ullarga ishora qilyapti. Come on man be wise! :shock:

Aytgancha wikipediadan boshqa ishonchli manbaa yo'qmi sizda? Hozir man o'shatga kirib to'g'irlab chiqishim mumkinku, shunda boshqacha o'ylashni boshlaysizmi?

[MUHLIS]

Insoni aziz, Muhlis! Chingiz xitoycha so'z yuqoridagi postimni o'qing. Turk so'zlari asli xitoy so'zlaridan olinganini isbotlochi dalillarni Adolf Kirchoff allaqachon isbotlab bergan. Malol kelamasa filologik tahlilga mansub asarlaridan birini olib o'qib chiqing. Aniq nomini eslasam sizga aytaman.

Agar xitoy tilini bilganizda siz bilan gaplashishim oson bo'lardi :D Masalan xitoy tilidagi "you" so'zi turkiy tilga "on" bo'lib keyinchalik o'ng ruchsa praviy (ma'nosida), 'zuo, suo so'zlari esa "so'l" - chap bo'lib qorishib ketgan.

Xitoyliklar suvni - shui deydi. Amakini (akani) boi, turkchada bey! O'sha barlos, chig'atoy kabi mug'ul qabilalari turkiylasha boshlaganida o'sha so'zlar ham kirib kelgan. Ya'ni siz aytgan biz turklarning bosh bo'g'inimiz gapining tagida, o'sha sharqdan kelganmiz, Sharqiy Turkistonliklarga, mug'ullarga ishora qilyapti. Come on man be wise! :shock:
Didro,
Siz Xitoyliklarga ko'proq quloq soling, Kleopatra ham aslida xitoycha so'z ekanini isbotlab berishadi: Kle - Xitoycha palon-palon; O - konfuciy ta'limotining asosiy o'zagi; Pa - eng eng tarqalgan ism; Tra - aslida Shra bo'lib Misrliklar tomonidan buzib aytilgan va tinch rivojlanish g'oyasining o'zagidir.
Bo'sh kanserva bonkani asfaltga otib yuborsangiz ham, oynani sindirsangiz ham "Xitoycha" so'zlar va iboralar chiqaveradi. :lol:

[Ma'ruf]

do you know where to get that?

Here (http://www.google.com/books?id=kydN074DwhwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=babur&as_brr=1#PPP1,M1)
You can download it if you want.

[Dr_Didro]

Didro,
Siz Xitoyliklarga ko'proq quloq soling, Kleopatra ham aslida xitoycha so'z ekanini isbotlab berishadi: Kle - Xitoycha palon-palon; O - konfuciy ta'limotining asosiy o'zagi; Pa - eng eng tarqalgan ism; Tra - aslida Shra bo'lib Misrliklar tomonidan buzib aytilgan va tinch rivojlanish g'oyasining o'zagidir.
Bo'sh kanserva bonkani asfaltga otib yuborsangiz ham, oynani sindirsangiz ham "Xitoycha" so'zlar va iboralar chiqaveradi. :lol:

Muhlis, turkiylikni da'vo qilishdan oldin asosini izlang demoqchidim xolos. Barlos bu kelib chiqish mug'ul bo'lgan qabila. Keyinchalik turkiylashgan. Isbot dalillarni xitoyliklardangina emas, yevropaliklar, xatto o'sha turk manbalaridan ham olasiz.

Man sizga o'sha olimlar talqinini berdim. Siz bo'lsangiz hazilga yoymoqdasiz. :cool:

Siz yaxshi ko'rgan wikipediada ham turco-mongol tribe demoqda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur

Hop turkiyligini tan olarkanmiz, mug'ulligidan nega qochamiz! Tarix g'ich g'ich fakt man sizga aytsam. Ertaga hammamiz Afrikadan tarqalgan bo'lmaylik tag'in! :lol:

[MUHLIS]

Muhlis, turkiylikni da'vo qilishdan oldin asosini izlang demoqchidim xolos. Barlos bu kelib chiqish mug'ul bo'lgan qabila. Keyinchalik turkiylashgan. Isbot dalillarni xitoyliklardangina emas, yevropaliklar, xatto o'sha turk manbalaridan ham olasiz.

Man sizga o'sha olimlar talqinini berdim. Siz bo'lsangiz hazilga yoymoqdasiz. :cool:

Siz yaxshi ko'rgan wikipediada ham turco-mongol tribe demoqda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur

Hop turkiyligini tan olarkanmiz, mug'ulligidan nega qochamiz! Tarix g'ich g'ich fakt man sizga aytsam. Ertaga hammamiz Afrikadan tarqalgan bo'lmaylik ta'gin! :lol:
Turco-mongol tribe deyishiga sabab huddi siz bilan menga o'xshab, kap katta olimlar ham it-mushuk bo'lib bu borada baxslashishadi. Shu.

[Dr_Didro]

Chig'atoy qabila emas Ulus (Mo'g'ullar bo'lib boshqargan o'lkalar, Chingizning o'g'lining ismi). Qanaqasiga qabila bo'lib qoldi bu? Tushuntirib bera olasizmi?

Muhlis, filolog bilan olishmang :lol: Ulus degani, qabilalar birlashmasi degani. Chig'atoy qabilasi, ya'ni tribe dominantlik qilgach ulusga aylangan.

Barlos masalasida ... Chingizxon shu turklar bilan birga yashagan ekande-aaa, Xitoy shimolida, jilqi baaqib, qimiz ishib :)

Chingiz xon bilan birga kelgan bo'lsa, yana qanaqa dalil istaysiz, osmondan tushmagandir? :lol:

[Dr_Didro]

Turco-mongol tribe deyishiga sabab huddi siz bilan menga o'xshab, kap katta olimlar ham it-mushuk bo'lib bu borada baxslashishadi. Shu.

Birodar hafa bo'lmang, ammo bo'm-bo'sh paqirni paq qilgan bilan barobar bo'ldi shu gapiz. Turko-Mongol degani ham turk ham mug'ul qoni bor degani, yana nimani istaysiz. Ne vashim ne nashim demoqchimisiz :lol:

[MUHLIS]

Muhlis, filolog bilan olishmang :lol: Ulus degani, qabilalar birlashmasi degani. Chig'atoy qabilasi, ya'ni tribe dominantlik qilgach ulusga aylangan.

Barlos masalasida ... Chingizxon shu turklar bilan birga yashagan ekande-aaa, Xitoy shimolida, jilqi baaqib, qimiz ishib :)

Chingiz xon bilan birga kelgan bo'lsa, yana qanaqa dalil istaysiz, osmondan tushmagandir? :lol:
1. Filolog bo'lsangiz juda ham yaxshi. Tortisha-tortisha "shirangizni" chiqarib foydalanamiz.
2. Chig'atoy Chingizxonni o'g'li bo'lganini hamma biladi. Agar Chig'atoy qabila bo'lganini isbotlay olsangiz nomingiz tarihda qo'lib ketadi.
3. Turklarning va Mo'g'ullar uzoq tarihdan yonma-yon yashaganlarini hamma biladi. Chingizxon armiyasining "izlariga" qarasangiz u yerlarda hozir mo'g'ul emas turkiy millatlar yashayotganiga guvoh bo'lasiz. Mana shuning o'zi Chingizxon armiyasida turklar ko'pchilikni tashkil qilganligining isbotidor. Xatto Bartol'dni tiriltirib olib kelsangiz ham buni inkor qila olmaydi.
4. Chingizxon doim Turklar qurshovida bo'lgan. Davlat ishlari ham turk tilida olib borilgan va devon boshilar hammasi Turk bo'lgan (Mo'g'ullarda yozuv bo'lmagan).

[Dr_Didro]

1. Filolog bo'lsangiz juda ham yaxshi. Tortisha-tortisha "shirangizni" chiqarib foydalanamiz.
2. Chig'atoy Chingizxonni o'g'li bo'lganini hamma biladi. Agar Chig'atoy qabila bo'lganini isbotlay olsangiz nomingiz tarihda qo'lib ketadi.
3. Turklarning va Mo'g'ullar uzoq tarihdan yonma-yon yashaganlarini hamma biladi. Chingizxon armiyasining "izlariga" qarasangiz u yerlarda hozir mo'g'ul emas turkiy millatlar yashayotganiga guvoh bo'lasiz. Mana shuning o'zi Chingizxon armiyasida turklar ko'pchilikni tashkil qilganligining isbotidor. Xatto Bartol'dni tiriltirib olib kelsangiz ham buni inkor qila olmaydi.
4. Chingizxon doim Turklar qurshovida bo'lgan. Davlat ishlari ham turk tilida olib borilgan va devon boshilar hammasi Turk bo'lgan (Mo'g'ullarda yozuv bo'lmagan).

Chig'atoy qabilasi bo'lganiga mana sizga birinchi manba:
The Rise and Rule of Tamerlane. by Beatrice Forbes Manz. Shu kitobni topib o'qing ;) Bu yerda qabila ulusga, ulus xonlikka aylangani lo'nda qilib tushintirilgan. Wikipediadan boshqa ilmiy manbalarni ham o'qib turish kerak :cool:

Mana sizga ikkinchi manba shundoq issiq tandirdan -bosing (http://books.google.com/books?id=Q3KTqLaFkO8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=tribe+of+chagatai&source=web&ots=lUOkO1TRTD&sig=xPUmuVHkRHkrCsuKlaAl5YdKCxo)!

Inshallah barchamizning nomimiz tarixda qolur ;)

[MUHLIS]

Chig'atoy qabilasi bo'lganiga mana sizga birinchi manba:
The Rise and Rule of Tamerlane. by Beatrice Forbes Manz. Shu kitobni topib o'qing ;) Bu yerda qabila ulusga, ulus xonlikka aylangani lo'nda qilib tushintirilgan. Wikipediadan boshqa ilmiy manbalarni ham o'qib turish kerak :cool:

Mana sizga ikkinchi manba shundoq issiq tandirdan -bosing (http://books.google.com/books?id=Q3KTqLaFkO8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=tribe+of+chagatai&source=web&ots=lUOkO1TRTD&sig=xPUmuVHkRHkrCsuKlaAl5YdKCxo)!

Inshallah barchamizning nomimiz tarixda qolur ;)
Chig'atoy degan qabila Mo'g'ullarda ham Turklarda ham bo'lmagan. Bergan manbangizni qarang, havoga asoslanib aytyaptimi yoki orqasidan olibmi...tushunolmadim. Chig'atoy - Chingizxonning o'g'li Chig'atoyga tekkan ULUSH.

[Dr_Didro]

Chig'atoy degan qabila Mo'g'ullarda ham Turklarda ham bo'lmagan. Bergan manbangizni qarang, havoga asoslanib aytyaptimi yoki orqasidan olibmi...tushunolmadim. Chig'atoy - Chingizxonning o'g'li Chig'atoyga tekkan ULUSH.

A inson sizga yana nima kerak, oqni oq ekanini ikki manba orqali isbotladim siz esa oyog'ingizni tirab yo'q deysiz. Aytgani kitobimni olib o'qing, xopmi? Siz mandan manba so'rayapsiz ammo gaplaringizni hech qanday manbaga asoslamay olib kelyapsiz. Haqiqatni tan olish qiyin, ammo bor narsa bor. Qabila bo'lgan Chig'atoy degan, uni qabila bo'lmaganini isbotlovchi manba toping man qoyil qolay. ;)

Ikkinchi manba: Historical Dictionary Of Turkmenistan kitobidan olingan, muallifi Rafis Abasov. UzLand uni juda yaxshi taniydi. Qaysidir lavhasida intervyu olgan edi. Abasov o'z umrini turkiylik va Markaziy Osiyo tarixiga bag'ishlagan olimlardan, tak chto hamma pritenziyalaringiz unga. Hohlasangiz e-mailini topib beraman, u bilan maza qilib yozishasiz, manga baqirmasdan :lol:

[MUHLIS]

A inson sizga yana nima kerak, oqni oq ekanini ikki manba orqali isbotladim siz esa oyog'ingizni tirab yo'q deysiz. Aytgani kitobimni olib o'qing, xopmi? Siz mandan manba so'rayapsiz ammo gaplaringizni hech qanday manbaga asoslamay olib kelyapsiz. Haqiqatni tan olish qiyin, ammo bor narsa bor. Qabila bo'lgan Chig'atoy degan, uni qabila bo'lmaganini isbotlovchi manba toping man qoyil qolay. ;)

Ikkinchi manba: Historical Dictionary Of Turkmenistan kitobidan olingan, muallifi Rafis Abasov. UzLand uni juda yaxshi taniydi. Qaysidir lavhasida intervyu olgan edi. Abasov o'z umrini turkiylik va Markaziy Osiyo tarixiga bag'ishlagan olimlardan, tak chto hamma pritenziyalaringiz unga. Hohlasangiz e-mailini topib beraman, u bilan maza qilib yozishasiz, manga baqirmasdan :lol:

Manbaning manbadan farqi bo'ladi aka. Chig'atoy degan qabila bor bo'lganida mashxur turkologlar Bartol'd yoki shunga o'xshash odamlar aytib o'tgan bo'lardi. Mahmud Qoshg'airyda bormikan "chig'atoy" degan qabila?

[Dr_Didro]

Manbaning manbadan farqi bo'ladi aka. Chig'atoy degan qabila bor bo'lganida mashxur turkologlar Bartol'd yoki shunga o'xshash odamlar aytib o'tgan bo'lardi. Mahmud Qoshg'airyda bormikan "chig'atoy" degan qabila?

Muhlis, sporlashish foydasiz. Manba dedingiz berdim. Gapingizni isbotlovchi hech narsa ko'rmayapman. Shunga oldin olib keling, o'sha Barto'ldi va Qoshg'ariyni gaplarini o'rtaga tashlang. Man o'z manbalarimni 100 foiz haqiqat, o'laman sattor deb aytayotganim yo'q. Bilganimni aytdim. Shu sabab rad etishdan oldin, isbotla degan gap bor.

Man sizga atayin 2 manba keltirdim, hohlasangiz 3 chisini ham topib beraman. Maqsadki biridan qoniqmasez ikkinchisga qarang, solishtiring. Ziddiyatli tomoni bo'lsa tahlil qiling. Mantiq degan narsa bor kein insonning miyya qobig'i tagida. Hullas Muhlisbek o'qing, izlaning, isobltang ana keyin rad eting, omad!

[MUHLIS]

Muhlis, sporlashish foydasiz. Manba dedingiz berdim. Gapingizni isbotlovchi hech narsa ko'rmayapman. Shunga oldin olib keling, o'sha Barto'ldi va Qoshg'ariyni gaplarini o'rtaga tashlang. Man o'z manbalarimni 100 foiz haqiqat, o'laman sattor deb aytayotganim yo'q. Bilganimni aytdim. Shu sabab rad etishdan oldin, isbotla degan gap bor.

Man sizga atayin 2 manba keltirdim, hohlasangiz 3 chisini ham topib beraman. Maqsadki biridan qoniqmasez ikkinchisga qarang, solishtiring. Ziddiyatli tomoni bo'lsa tahlil qiling. Mantiq degan narsa bor kein insonning miyya qobig'i tagida. Hullas Muhlisbek o'qing, izlaning, isobltang ana keyin rad eting, omad!
Bu oddiy aksiomaku: Chig'atoy son of Chengiz khan. 13 asrdan 18 asrgacha qabila shakllanib qolganmi?
Qabila nima edi o'zi eslatib yuboring, iltimos.

[VatanparvaR]

Qachonlardir o'zbek bitta odam bo'lgan bo'lishi mumkin. Lekin xozirda "o'zbek" tushunchasi, ma'lum xududda yashayotgan elatlar, mayda millatlar, qabilalarni o'z ichiga olgan, katta bir millat tushunchasi sifatida anglanadi. Shuning uchun, bu mavzu, xatto mavzuning nomi bo'lmish "Timurids=Uzbeks?" xam umuman ma'noga ega emas.

Bularni solishtirib bo'lmaydi umuman.

[Dr_Didro]

Bu oddiy aksiomaku: Chig'atoy son of Chengiz khan. 13 asrdan 18 asrgacha qabila shakllanib qolganmi?

To'g'ri bundoq olib qarasangiz hozir Massagetlar qabilasi yo'q. Ammo biz To'maris o'sha qabila yetakchisi va bizning ajdod deymiz. Assimilyaciyaga duch kelgan. Endi man to'g'risi antropolog emasman, yoki epigrafist. Shunga barcha jarayonni sizga bayon qilib berishim mushkul.

Chig'atoy qabilasi borligini rad etasiz, ammo Chig'atoy Chingizxonning ikkinchi og'li xonlik yaratganini rad etmassiz? Tarix aksiomik savollarga javob bera olmaydi, bu sizga aniq fan emas, uzr birodar.

Man Chig'atoyni qo'shnimgning o'g'li deb aytayotganim yo'q-ku :) O'sha uning qabilasi davr o'tishi bilan yemirilib, qoshilib, qorishib ketgan. Chig'atoy o'z nomiga qabila yarata olmaganmi? Xonlik yaratgan odam-a?!

[erkak#1]

Chig'atoydan qabila yasab qo'ydiylami? :-D

[Kalon Bek]

Sizlarni postilarni uqib boshim qotib qoldi...


Bunaqa qilib tarihni maydalaydigan bulsak bu mavzu hech qachon tugamaydi. Mani utgan safargi postimni urtoq faylasuf sal boshqacharoq tushunipti.

Urta Osiyoga yashab utgan kim borki bizni ota bobomiz hisoblanadi. Hozir qaerni uqimang Temur Uzbek emas Falonchi mogul emas degan narsalar, huddi bu odamlar yashashganu tag-tugi bilan qirilib ketgan. Biz esa qanaqadir 100 yil oldin osmondan tushgan hech kimga aloqasi yoq halqmiz. Hullas fikrimni tushuntira oldim degan umiddaman.

P.S Faylasuf sanlaganim qattiq botgan bulsa uzr.

[Emil_Diniyev]

Your posts have become some sort of an eyesore with your "Caucasus" paranoia.
Read some history before posting here.
Good luck.

:D

No, but Uzbeks are not from West of Caspian Sea.

Uzbekistan are located in East of Caspian Sea. So u guys moved to East from here West? :o

[erkak#1]

:D

No, but Uzbeks are not from West of Caspian Sea.

Uzbekistan are located in East of Caspian Sea. So u guys moved to East from here West? :o

Read history books before saying anything about this subject... :D

[Emil_Diniyev]

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3672/38063865caspianseamap30am1.gif (http://imageshack.us)

I don't see any Uzbekistan in West of Caspian Sea :D.

What history?

[ulugbekTR]

buyuk insanlar bir toplulugun bir bolumune mal edilemezler.
mustafa kemal ataturk selaniklidir, ama tum turklerin atasıdır
mevlana celaleeddin i rumi, horasanlıdır. avşardır. amma tum dunyaya hitap etmektedir.

[Einstein]

Qachonlardir o'zbek bitta odam bo'lgan bo'lishi mumkin. Lekin xozirda "o'zbek" tushunchasi, ma'lum xududda yashayotgan elatlar, mayda millatlar, qabilalarni o'z ichiga olgan, katta bir millat tushunchasi sifatida anglanadi. Shuning uchun, bu mavzu, xatto mavzuning nomi bo'lmish "Timurids=Uzbeks?" xam umuman ma'noga ega emas.Bularni solishtirib bo'lmaydi umuman.

Ichimdagini tarjima qilib berdingizda, ispasibaa drukjan.:D

Hozirda O'zbekiston faxrlari Ruslan Chagaev, Artur Grigoryan, Maksim Shatskikh, Igor Shkvirin, Oksana Chusovitinalar, o'tmishdagi Ibn Sino, Buxoriy, Usto Mumin, Xorazmiylar hammasi biz uchun O'zbeklar. :)

[Sirius_s]

Oraga bitta offtop qo'p qo'yiy ;)

Aslida Amerikani Temur kashf qilgan ekan, buni tarix adashib noto'g'ri talqib qilgan ekan, Amir Temur Amerikani kashf qilib qaytayotganda, etdigi xalq Amiraka, Ameraka deya deya oxiri Amerika bo'p ketgan ekan

Bir tomondan kulsangiz, bir tomondan achinasiz, hop Samarqandda shunaqa hukmdor o'tgan ekan, u odam o'tib ketdi, endi usti yaltiroq ichi qaltiroq bo'lib qolgan mamlakatda ayrimlar(ko'pchilik) hozirgi kunini o'ylamasdan, bir paydagi A.Temur haqida maqtangani maqtangan :( :uups:

[Qarama]

"The Uzbeks were a Turkic community on the steppes of Central Asia west of the Caspian Sea, which first rose to prominence in the early 15th century for overthrowing Timur's successors from the Chagatai Khanate. They claimed to be descendants of Sheiban, a brother of the original Golden Horde ruler, Batu Khan, and they had adopted Islam before the Mongol invasions of the 13th century.



:D

No, but Uzbeks are not from West of Caspian Sea.

Uzbekistan are located in East of Caspian Sea. So u guys moved to East from here West? :o

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/e/e6/400px-Golden_Horde_1389.svg.png
Map of the Golden Horde, so it could be possible that the Uzbeks came from the Caucasus during the Golden Horde period.

Emil indi ba$a dü$dün?

[Qarama]

btw. turkic petroglyphs were found in Anatolia and the Caucasus which are identical with the Petroglyphs from the Altai mountains, Kygryzstan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia , (central asia). They are from the bronze-age.

[alpum]

да опять мы пришлик этому вопросу!)

ну что, попрубую я тоже сказать свое мнение.

узбеки - те которые пришли с шайбани - были монголскими племенами.
темур был барласом. который не имел ни кого отношения к монголам и к узбекам. скорей всего он был татаром, вмести с монголами в среднею изию пришли и татары(турки). не забывайте что чингиз хан был предворителем татаромангольсткого иго!

ток что называть себя узбеком это значить причеслять себя монголам.

а счетат себя турьком, или татаром - это значить счетать темура своим предком.

сами выбирайте. на сегоднешний день термен узбек объединяет 99 плен, тюркских а не монгольских, в том чесле борласов.

[Masanori]

biz ajoyib millat, turli etnik guruhlar(turk, fors, horazmiy, grek, arab qorahitoy, mugul-tatar-temuriy, uzbek) madaniyati tili, urf odatlarini aks ettirgan yagona UZBEKISTONLIKlarmiz. Ana shu Uzbekistonliklar hozirda Uzbek deb nom olgan. Faqat nomimizgina uzbek bulgani uchungina ajdodlarimiz uzbek qabilasi deb jar solish mantiqsiz. Hozirda uzbek deganda ming yillar davomida turli tarihiy voqea hodisalar jarayonida vujudga kelgan rang-barang millat - Uzbekistonliklar tushuniladi! Temuriylar ham bizning, Uzbekistonliklarning, ajdodi!

[Tabriz_Han]

When referring to Amir Temur we must use primary sources.

These include, TЪZAK-I TНMЪRН:THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF TНMЪR.
This is an autobiographical memoir of the Emperor Tнmъr, written in the Chaghatбн Turkн language, translated into Persian by Abъ Tбlib Husainн, and dedicated to the Emperor Shбh Jahбn, who began to reign in A.D. 1628.

Zafarnama of Sharafu-d dнn 'Alн Yazdн

"Narrative of the Embassy of Ruy Gonzalez de Clavijo to the Court of Samarcand",

Ibn Khalduns meeting with Amir Temur




My father told me that we were descendants from Abu-al-Atrak (father of the Turks) the son of Japhet. His fifth son, Aljeh Khan, had twin sons, Tatar and Mogul, who placed their feet on the paths of infidelity. Tumene Khan had a son Kabul, whose son, Munga Bahadur, was the father of Temugin, called Zengis Khan. Zengis Khan abandoned the duty of a conqueror by slaughtering the people, and plundering the dominions of God, and he put many thousands of Moslems to death. He bestowed Mawur-ulnaher on his son Zagatai, and appointed my ancestor, Karachar Nevian, to be his minister. "Karacher appointed the plain of Kesh for the residence of the tribe of Berlas (his own tribe), and he subdued the countries of Kashgar, Badakshan, and Andecan. He was succeeded by his son Ayettekuz as Sepah Salar (general). Then followed my grandfather, the Ameer Burkul, who retired from office, and contented himself with the government of his own tribe of Berlas. He possessed an incalculable number of sheep and goats, cattle and servants. On his death my father succeeded, but he also preferred seclusion, and the society of learned men."
Clements Markham Narrative of the Embassy of Ruy Gonzalez De Clavijo to the Court of Timour, at Samarcand, A.D.1403-6: Translated, for the First Time, with Notes, a Preface and an Introductory Life of Timour Beg, p. 125, 126



Ibn Khaldun about Amir Temur


"You know how the power of the Arabs was established when they became united in their religion in following their Prophet. As for the Turks ... in their group solidarity, no king on earth can be compared with them, not Chosroes nor Caesar nor Alexander nor Nebuchadnezzar."


"Biz kim, Mulki Turon, Amiri Turkistonmiz. Biz kim millatlarning eng qadimi va eng ulug’i Turkning bosh bo’g’inimiz."
Zafar-nama

Amir Temur makes it very clear what he is, there is no point argueing about who he was, if we care to read he tells us everything we want to know.

The Timurid era was a golden age of Turkistan, today some of the heroes of modern-day Ozbekistan are from this age, there is a continuity due to the Turkic language, heritage and culture developed during this period and later developed by the O'zbek reign.

Amir Timur, the great literary figures and culture developed in Turkistan is heritage of all Turks.

[Sirius_s]

Rabg'uziyning yozishicha:

Nuh alayhissalomning uch o'g'li bo'lgan:Yofas,Hom,Som
Yofasning 9ta o'g'li bo'lgan,hoz hammasini oti esimda yoku, lekin asosan millatlar nomiga o'xshardi: 1.Turk 2.Mog'ul 3.... va etc
Turkning ham o'z o'g'illari bo'lgan va hokozo. O'zbek nomi esa O'zbak degan qabila oqsoqolining nomi bn O'zbek millat bo'lib kelgan deb o'qigan edim tarihda. Y'ani turkiy o'zbeklarmiz.

[Uyyonli]

Rabg'uziyning yozishicha:

Nuh alayhissalomning uch o'g'li bo'lgan:Yofas,Hom,Som
Yofasning 9ta o'g'li bo'lgan,hoz hammasini oti esimda yoku, lekin asosan millatlar nomiga o'xshardi: 1.Turk 2.Mog'ul 3.... va etc
Turkning ham o'z o'g'illari bo'lgan va hokozo. O'zbek nomi esa O'zbak degan qabila oqsoqolining nomi bn O'zbek millat bo'lib kelgan deb o'qigan edim tarihda. Y'ani turkiy o'zbeklarmiz.

this is some serious talk :lol:

[KOYUNCU]

Rabg'uziyning yozishicha:

Nuh alayhissalomning uch o'g'li bo'lgan:Yofas,Hom,Som
Yofasning 9ta o'g'li bo'lgan,hoz hammasini oti esimda yoku, lekin asosan millatlar nomiga o'xshardi: 1.Turk 2.Mog'ul 3.... va etc
Turkning ham o'z o'g'illari bo'lgan va hokozo. O'zbek nomi esa O'zbak degan qabila oqsoqolining nomi bn O'zbek millat bo'lib kelgan deb o'qigan edim tarihda. Y'ani turkiy o'zbeklarmiz.
very nice knowledges

[Karayılan]

Timurids = Turkistanis.

[Morel]

I don't know if this is offensive but i always wondered myself why Amir Timur for example is a national hero in Uzbekistan. Because he founded the Timurid empire? but hadn't the Uzbeks wiped the Timurids out of Uzbekistan? Because of that, the Timurids founded an other empire the Moghul empire in India.

Sorry if i offended anyone but i am very interested in history and want to know that.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Amir_Temur.jpg/200px-Amir_Temur.jpg




Bobur who moved to India was not a founder of Temurids. The Empire was founded by Amir Temur i.e. Bobur's grandpa. The dynasty of Temurids always reffered as Moghuls and misunderstood by the world community. Temur was born in Shahrisabz which is one of the cities of modern Uzbekistan. And Bobur who expanded Empire's influence by moving to India was born in Andijan which is part of modern Uzb as well.

So can we proud of him and treat him as a national hero:) ?

[alpum]

I don't know if this is offensive but i always wondered myself why Amir Timur for example is a national hero in Uzbekistan. Because he founded the Timurid empire? but hadn't the Uzbeks wiped the Timurids out of Uzbekistan? Because of that, the Timurids founded an other empire the Moghul empire in India.

Sorry if i offended anyone but i am very interested in history and want to know that.




First of all make clear for yourself who is Uzbeks, and Who Uzbekkhan iz, then you u will find an answer to your question!

[Bukharan]

Timur, was born 8th April 1336 in Kesh near Samarkand. Member of turkicized Barlas tribe, a Mongol subgroup that had settled in Transoxonia after taking part in Genghis Khan's son Jagatai's campaigns in that region. Jagatai Khans claimed suzerainty over the area but the country was in fact in a state of semi-anarchy. Timur began his life as a bandit leader. During this period, he received an arrow-wound in the leg, as a result of which he was nicknamed Timur i Lenk or Timur the Lame, corrupted in the West to Tamerlane.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5246/Timur.html

[Bukharan]

After the death in 1357 of Transoxonia's ruler, Amir Kazgan, Timur declared his fealty to the khan of nearby Kashgar, Tughluq Temur, who had overrun Transoxonia's chief city, Samarkand, in 1361. Tughluq Temur appointed his son Iljas Khoja as governor of Transoxonia, with Timur as his minister. But shortly afterward Timur fled and rejoined his brother-in-law Amir Husayn, the grandson of Amir Kazgan. They defeated Ilyas Khoja (1364) and set out to conquer Transoxonia, achieving firm possession of the region around 1366.About 1370 Timur turned against Husayn, besieged him in Balkh, and, after Husayn assassination, proclaimed himself as Samarkand sovereign of the Jagatai line of khans and restorer of the Mongol empire.

[Bukharan]

A Kinder, Gentler Tamerlane Inspires Uzbekistan
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E0DE1339F933A25752C1A9619582 60&sec=&spon=

[cianore]

A Kinder, Gentler Tamerlane Inspires Uzbekistan
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F04E0DE1339F933A25752C1A9619582 60&sec=&spon=

Xo'sh? buni nima maqsadda keltirib o'tdiz, ochiqroq ayta olasizmi?

[Karayılan]

Member of turkicized Barlas tribe, a Mongol subgroup that had settled in Transoxonia after taking part in Genghis Khan's son Jagatai's campaigns in that region. Do you have any academic resource about that?

From a primary resource about Chaghatai Khanate, after death of Great Khan(Chingis), 4000 Mongols was given to Chagatai Khan. Only 4000 Mongols to a Khan(Jean-Paul Roux)... İnterestingly, except Mongol soldiers there seemed no Mongol-speaking people in Transoxiana but a non-academic Greek source claims that Timur's tribe was a turkicized Mongol tribe and Uzbeks believe that... What a pity!

[Kalon Bek]

Temuriylar shak shubhasiz bizni ota bobolarimiz!

[Bukharan]

Do you have any academic resource about that?

From a primary resource about Chaghatai Khanate, after death of Great Khan(Chingis), 4000 Mongols was given to Chagatai Khan. Only 4000 Mongols to a Khan(Jean-Paul Roux)... İnterestingly, except Mongol soldiers there seemed no Mongol-speaking people in Transoxiana but a non-academic Greek source claims that Timur's tribe was a turkicized Mongol tribe and Uzbeks believe that... What a pity!

All academic unbiased sources claim the same. What's your source?

[Karayılan]

All academic unbiased resources claim the same. What's your source?I wrote my source. And I know your sources.

Chaghatai Uls was a confederation of Turkic-speaking tribes under order of a Mongol elite just like Altinorda Uls. Let's look at primary sources:

"My father told me that we were descendants from Abu'l Atrak" Amir Temur.

Atrak is plural form of the name Turk in Arabic; Etrak, Itrak, Atrak. Abu'l Atrak means son of Turks.

Chaghatai Khanate had noble tribes such as Barlas, Jalair etc and some less important tribes. To be a noble among Turks and Mongols, a person had to had "Kutlu Kan" the Holy Blood. Therefore, there are so many myths in Turkic and Mongolid history. For Example, Ottomans claimed that Ertughrul Ghazi was a son of Suleyman Shah who was the conquer of Anatolia and grandson of Oghuz Khan, Genghis Khan was thought that his blood came from female wolf Bortechine . Thus, powerful tribes of Chaghatai Uls claimed that they were sons of Great Khan to prove being main elements of the state and oneday they would get their sovereignty just like Kıpchaks in Altınorda(Tatar, Nogai). Yet, there is no primary source which can be proof that thpse tribes spoke a Mongol dialect in history. Only an epic of Ogedei Khan but it is again most probably a myth about nobility concept of nomads. He claimed that Barlas tribe was sons of Bodonchir. But who was Bodonchir? maybe he never exists like Oghuz Khan or Alp Er Tunga. Just an epic story of Nomads...

[Bukharan]

If you know my academic sources, you might know as well that Tamerlane was a Barlas.

Btw, your comment under the other thread puts all your arguments under question. If you believe that we live in a raceless world, what are you trying to prove here?

I wrote my source. And I know your sources.

Chaghatai Uls was a confederation of Turkic-speaking tribes under order of a Mongol elite just like Altinorda Uls. Let's look at primary sources:

"My father told me that we were descendants from Abu'l Atrak" Amir Temur.

Atrak is plural form of the name Turk in Arabic; Etrak, Itrak, Atrak. Abu'l Atrak means son of Turks.

Chaghatai Khanate had noble tribes such as Barlas, Jalair etc and some less important tribes. To be a noble among Turks and Mongols, a person had to had "Kutlu Kan" the Holy Blood. Therefore, there are so many myths in Turkic and Mongolid history. For Example, Ottomans claimed that Ertughrul Ghazi was a son of Suleyman Shah who was the conquer of Anatolia and grandson of Oghuz Khan, Genghis Khan was thought that his blood came from female wolf Bortechine . Thus, powerful tribes of Chaghatai Uls claimed that they were sons of Great Khan to prove being main elements of the state and oneday they would get their sovereignty just like Kıpchaks in Altınorda(Tatar, Nogai). Yet, there is no primary source which can be proof that thpse tribes spoke a Mongol dialect in history. Only an epic of Ogedei Khan but it is again most probably a myth about nobility concept of nomads. He claimed that Barlas tribe was sons of Bodonchir. But who was Bodonchir? maybe he never exists like Oghuz Khan or Alp Er Tunga. Just an epic story of Nomads...

[Karayılan]

If you know my academic sources, you might know as well that Tamerlane was a Barlas.

Btw, your comment under the other thread puts all your arguments under question. If you believe that we live in a raceless world, what are you trying to prove here?Mongol and Turk never refers race names. They are nations.

Yea I know, Timur was a Barlas. But I asked is it certain that Barlas comes from Borchigin? Can somebody prove it?

[Bukharan]

Mongol and Turk never refers race names. They are nations.

Yea I know, Timur was a Barlas. But I asked is it certain that Barlas comes from Borchigin? Can somebody prove it?


Borchigin doesn't tell us anything nowadays. But Barlas is still a tribe in present-day Central Asia. That means Timur and Timurids were not Uzbek.

If you accept the existence of nations (in this case tribes), you might accept another fact as well: they are offspring of a certain race that could be traced back in living tribes and nations. Their cohesion could be studied easily based on linguistics and anthropology. So, race is a reality.

[Karayılan]

I didn't claim that Timur was an Ozbek, actually the name Ozbek was started to use after Timur. Borchigin was Temuchin's tribe and if Timur was a Mongol, he had to came from Borchigin. Because the only hypotesis that Barlas was a turkicized Mongol tribe was Barlas came from Bodun Achir's blood. Bodonchir or Bodon Achir was Temuchin's direct ancestor, however, he was only a myth like Bortechine and Goa Maral.

Today's antropologists claim that all races are spreaded on the earth homogenously. can you claim that Ozbeks comes from X race? Look at Ozbekistan's genetic maps. ;)

[Bukharan]

Uzbeks are the most mixed people of the region in terms of race. If there was no notion of race we would have not talked about admixtures. Mixture of what? Mixture of different races.

I didn't claim that Timur was an Ozbek, actually the name Ozbek was started to use after Timur. Borchigin was Temuchin's tribe and if Timur was a Mongol, he had to came from Borchigin. Because the only hypotesis that Barlas was a turkicized Mongol tribe was Barlas came from Bodun Achir's blood. Bodonchir or Bodon Achir was Temuchin's direct ancestor, however, he was only a myth like Bortechine and Goa Maral.

Today's antropologists claim that all races are spreaded on the earth homogenously. can you claim that Ozbeks comes from X race? Look at Ozbekistan's genetic maps. ;)

[Bukharan]

Off topping still my friend? :D :D

ON: they are all muslims, doesnt and shouldnt matter if they r the same or different.

Oh dudie goodie. Nice to see you here again. Hopefully, the pain has gone, nah?

Do you need glasses to see who's been off-toping so far? And you joined him too it seems:thumbs:

Now tell me on topic: What do you think about Temur? We said he wasn't Uzbek. I'm sure you agree.

[Bukharan]

Don't worry dude, Tajiks are as mixed as Uzbeks maybe more ;)

Can anybody tell me about Barlas tribe in today's Turkistan pls?

Nothing to be worried about. Cuz we know the difference, don't we?

As said, no people as mixed as Uzbeks in the region.

What do you want to know about Barlas? I know a couple of gals and guys from that tribe.

[Karayılan]

Now tell me on topic: What do you think about Temur? We said he wasn't Uzbek. I'm sure you agree.He was a Turk as he said :cool: What you say is like "Kultigin was not Oghuz or Kipchak" but Kultigin is the ancestor of them. Also, Timur is ancestor of Uzbeks!

Nothing to be worried about. Cuz we know the difference, don't we?

As said, no people as mixed as Uzbeks in the region. And nobody has a strong culture as Uzbeks' in the region ;)

What do you expect from DNA? Look at Kirghiz and Mongol people, can you know a person is Mongol or Kirghiz until he speaks? Interestingly, Kirghiz people has the most widely Indo-Eurpean DNA among all Turkic people, even more than Iranians :cool: So forget that bullshit ;)

What do you want to know about Barlas? I want to know about their language, is that a dialect of Uzbek or a different Turkic etc?

[Bukharan]

:lol: I hope u had a good time off, all refreshed, new and nice, right?

I dont care who was who, Temur was a muslim, that is the only thing that matters to me. What KIND of muslim is of course questionable ;)

Actually I was away for a couple of days and got back absolutely upbeat. But I dunno why you still sound so bitter and battered:lol:

The topic is not about Tamerlane's religion. There are many non-Uzbek Muslims and non-Muslim Uzbeks. Can you deny it? Or based on your fact, can an Arab claim that Tamerlane is his grandfather?

[Bukharan]

Based on your logics, Kamal Ataturk was Uzbek too. But we know he wasn't. Barlas is a separate ethnie. And Tamerlane belongs to that stock, not to Uzbek. The Barlas are Turkicized Mongols who speak Chaghatai Turkic language, yes. But does it make them Uzbek, you think?

As for DNA data, that was sheer farce and totally laughable. For a person who doesn't take keen interest in races it sounds a bit too odd to look into DNA. There is no need for them at all. Look at their physionomy and it's done. Then you will find out how funny it is to call Iranians less Indo-European than the Kyrghyz.

He was a Turk as he said :cool: What you say is like "Kultigin was not Oghuz or Kipchak" but Kultigin is the ancestor of them. Also, Timur is ancestor of Uzbeks!

And nobody has a strong culture as Uzbeks' in the region ;)

What do you expect from DNA? Look at Kirghiz and Mongol people, can you know a person is Mongol or Kirghiz until he speaks? Interestingly, Kirghiz people has the most widely Indo-Eurpean DNA among all Turkic people, even more than Iranians :cool: So forget that bullshit ;)

I want to know about their language, is that a dialect of Uzbek or a different Turkic etc?

[SAMARKANDI!]

Actually I was away for a couple of days and got back absolutely upbeat. But I dunno why you still sound so bitter and battered:lol:

The topic is not about Tamerlane's religion. There are many non-Uzbek Muslims and non-Muslim Uzbeks. Can you deny it? Or based on your fact, can an Arab claim that Tamerlane is his grandfather?

Then we both had a good time. :D I had some excellent time during North Amerca trip.

Why dont u get it, u asked me a question, I said I dont care if he was an uzbek, I dont care about uzbek, tadjik or kazak labels, I feel good as long as they r all muslim.;) Meaning the topic of this thread and all the arguments about temurids, uzbeks don't interest me.

[Bukharan]

Then we both had a good time. :D I had some excellent time during North Amerca trip.

Why dont u get it, u asked me a question, I said I dont care if he was an uzbek, I dont care about uzbek, tadjik or kazak labels, I feel good as long as they r all muslim.;) Meaning the topic of this thread and all the arguments about temurids, uzbeks don't interest me.

You are in a wrong place then. I'd be very happy to have a proper civilized convo with you about the notions of 'religion' and 'nation'. Your previous comments demonstrated to the entire audience how much you feel Uzbek and your hatred against Tajiks doesn't allow you to come to terms that the right orthography of the word in English is 'Tajik'So why do you keep chanting your illusive slogan of Muslim-ness while you don't believe in it? If you really don't care who belongs to what nation, why do you keep heeding each message posted by a Tajik? Why do you find it necessary to produce a sound when it comes to 'nations'?

There are so many pan-Turkic comments that you give thanks thumbs and sympathise whole-heartedly. Doesn't it tell you about something hideous?

[Karayılan]

I wonder why non-Turkic people want to make our history Mongol... Timur died as a MUSLIM TURK and that's all! Do you know who Timur was better than him, Timur?

"Biz kim - Mulki Turon, Amiri Turkistonmiz
Biz kim - millatlarning eng ulug'i Turkning boshbog'inmiz" said OUR GREAT BASHBUG so silence is the best way for people like you :cool:

[SAMARKANDI!]

You are in a wrong place then. I'd be very happy to have a proper civilized convo with you about the notions of 'religion' and 'nation'. Your previous comments demonstrated to the entire audience how much you feel Uzbek and your hatred against Tajiks doesn't allow you to come to terms that the right orthography of the word in English is 'Tajik'So why do you keep chanting your illusive slogan of Muslim-ness while you don't believe in it? If you really don't care who belongs to what nation, why do you keep heeding each message posted by a Tajik? Why do you find it necessary to produce a sound when it comes to 'nations'?

There are so many pan-Turkic comments that you give thanks thumbs and sympathise whole-heartedly. Doesn't it tell you about something hideous?

Mate, calm down :lol: are u still mad at me? :D

It would be nice to have a good conversation with u about religion, but the problem is that u make huge assumptions all the time and make up things. My attitude to Uzbeks or any other nation is very good ;) I was refering to the labels i.e. names not to the people. I would prefer calling them all Muslims.

Now chill out, dont take the past too close to urself. ;)

[Bukharan]

I'm not making your history mate. Hopefully you will make history one day yourself. All I am saying is that Tamerlane was Barlas according to all available historical data and you accepted it, didn't you? So, after that we went to explore the Barlas. And it turns out that they are a Turkicized Mongol tribe. You can take your grievances to academic cirlces that release this info and to my Barlas friends who believe in the very info.

I wish you all the best

I wonder why non-Turkic people want to make our history Mongol... Timur died as a MUSLIM TURK and that's all! Do you know who Timur was better than him, Timur?

"Biz kim - Mulki Turon, Amiri Turkistonmiz
Biz kim - millatlarning eng ulug'i Turkning boshbog'inmiz" said OUR GREAT BASHBUG so silence is the best way for people like you :cool:

[Bukharan]

How could I be mad at you dude?:lol: The idea sounds quite thrilling, but haven't I felt it so far.:lol:

That was just a straight forward question. I can just see very vivid signs of hipocrisy in your words. That's all.

But I'll be waiting for your new thread about religions and nations. Maybe there we could have a more amicable chat while sipping some green chai and challenging each other in a sound way without breaking each others' pialas:lol:

Mate, calm down :lol: are u still mad at me? :D

It would be nice to have a good conversation with u about religion, but the problem is that u make huge assumptions all the time and make up things. My attitude to Uzbeks or any other nation is very good ;) I was refering to the labels i.e. names not to the people. I would prefer calling them all Muslims.

Now chill out, dont take the past too close to urself. ;)

[Karayılan]

I'm not making your history mate. Hopefully you will make history one day yourself. All I am saying is that Tamerlane was Barlas according to all available historical data and you accepted it, didn't you? So, after that we went to explore the Barlas. And it turns out that they are a Turkicized Mongol tribe. You can take your grievances to academic cirlces that release this info and to my Barlas friends who believe in the very info.

I wish you all the bestRead my posts carefully. I know why some historicians(Not all of them) acknowledged Barlas as "turkicized Mongol".

Because of a myth, an epic story of nomads. No evidence that Barlas spoke Mongol in history, no evidence that they had Chingis's blood. It was like Turks and Mongols' other myth: Ashina, Bortechine, Goa Maral, Oghuz Khan, Alp Er Tunga... like Ottomans', Seljuks', Genghisids' bloodline. Did you understand now? Timur and all Barlas people talked Turkic in history. They accepted that they were Turks.

A question to you bro, why a Mongol tribe says "We are Turks now" while Mongols have hegemony and extraordinary power? Turks should say that according to logic...

[Bukharan]

All those archaic names make no sense to me. But Barlas is a well-known tribe in Central Asia. Hence, we know them better than you. Just half an hour ago you were not sure about their native language and whether it was a dialect of Uzbek or else. You got the answer from me. Now you are declaring pompously that "All Barlas people talked Turkic in history!"

Just calm down and get back to realities. This is not believed by unbiased academics and this is not what you hear from educated Barlas people. Maybe they are utterly wrong. But in order to prove them wrong you have to equip yourself with stronger arguments.

Cheer up

Read my posts carefully. I know why some historicians(Not all of them) acknowledged Barlas as "turkicized Mongol".

Because of a myth, an epic story of nomads. No evidence that Barlas spoke Mongol in history, no evidence that they had Chingis's blood. It was like Turks and Mongols' other myth: Ashina, Bortechine, Goa Maral, Oghuz Khan, Alp Er Tunga... like Ottomans', Seljuks', Genghisids' bloodline. Did you understand now? Timur and all Barlas people talked Turkic in history. They accepted that they were Turks.

A question to you bro, why a Mongol tribe says "We are Turks now" while Mongols have hegemony and extraordinary power? Turks should say that according to logic...

[Karayılan]

Just half an hour ago you were not sure about their native language and whether it was a dialect of Uzbek or else. You got the answer from me. Now you are declaring pompously that "All Barlas people talked Turkic in history!" I asked that "Do Barlas people speak Uzbek or a different Turkic?" so I know that they are still speaking Turkic. :cool:

If those names make no sense to you then you shouldn't talk about Timur's bloodline, man. That is complately related to those names :cool: Please learn more about Nomads and their belief of blood. Read about them a bit more because those names must make sense to you if you really curious about Timur :lol:

[Karayılan]

Actually, I was sure that Barlas people spoke Uzbek when I asked that but if you say "They are speaking Uzbek" it would be a counter idea against you. Nvm

[Bukharan]

Why should I be curious about Tamerlane? The history has given its verdict to a blood thirsty ruler of the medieval ages. What I said is what is known. I just don't like relinquishing realities for the sake of my illusionary world. And that's what you are doing now.

The world of nomads and nomadic empires is gone. Wake up to a different era buddy. Look forward to creating a better world for new generations to come. Why are you stuck in the past?:rolleyes::lol:

And if you don't know what language the Barlas speak now, how can you be so sure about their past? That means you'd better kept silent to save your face.

Cheers mate

I asked that "Do Barlas people speak Uzbek or a different Turkic?" so I know that they are still speaking Turkic. :cool:

If those names make no sense to you then you shouldn't talk about Timur's bloodline, man. That is complately related to those names :cool: Please learn more about Nomads and their belief of blood. Read about them a bit more because those names must make sense to you if you really curious about Timur :lol:

[Bukharan]

Actually, I was sure that Barlas people spoke Uzbek when I asked that but if you say "They are speaking Uzbek" it would be a counter idea against you. Nvm

Let's try to defeat Alzheimer.

This is what you said half an hour ago:

Can anybody tell me about Barlas tribe in today's Turkistan pls?

I want to know about their language, is that a dialect of Uzbek or a different Turkic etc?

[Bukharan]

Actually, I was sure that Barlas people spoke Uzbek when I asked that but if you say "They are speaking Uzbek" it would be a counter idea against you. Nvm

Over half of the black population of the world speak an Indo-European language (French, English, Portuguese). Surprisingly, none of them have turned into a Frenchman or an Englishman or a Portuguese.;)

[Karayılan]

I'm not living in a nomadic empire or past. And I started to doubt about your perception. Timur was gone too, so? what is the point? Shouldn't we discuss about him?

We are talking about Timur's bloodline now didn't we? If your answer is yes, let's look at nomads' bloodline and their beliefs. Because they had no writen source all we know is stroies of them. Therefore, nothing can be certain about them. I gave some examples of those myths and they didn't make sense to you. So forget about Timur, Mongols, Turks, Nomads... etc because the only heritage of them made no sense to you. Keep believing anti-Turkic history interpretations. It is better for you. Huns become Vikings, Mameluks become Kurds, Turks become Aliens in your ilisionary world.

[Karayılan]

Over half of the black population of the world speak an Indo-European language (French, English, Portuguese). Surprisingly, none of them have turned into a Frenchman or an Englishman or a Portuguese.;)Because they are blacks, Barlas are Turks. Mongols had colony in Turkistan and they teached Mongols Turkic? Can you believe it? French empire teached Frenchmen in Africa Zulu language, alright :lol:

[Demir Kağan]

Cahile kitap gunes olsa yine de onu aydinlatamaz..

[Bukharan]

Now, try your best to impress me with your original wording rather than copying and pasting the used expressions.

The thread is about Timurids and whether they were Uzbek. The answer had been given before and it's negative. They were Barlas. As for the Barlas, your arguments are based on dodgy illusions and no facts have been given. They contradict academic data. So, let's leave it there then. Anyway, the answer to the main question of the thread has been given already.

Cheers

I'm not living in a nomadic empire or past. And I started to doubt about your perception. Timur was gone too, so? what is the point? Shouldn't we discuss about him?

We are talking about Timur's bloodline now didn't we? If your answer is yes, let's look at nomads' bloodline and their beliefs. Because they had no writen source all we know is stroies of them. Therefore, nothing can be certain about them. I gave some examples of those myths and they didn't make sense to you. So forget about Timur, Mongols, Turks, Nomads... etc because the only heritage of them made no sense to you. Keep believing anti-Turkic history interpretations. It is better for you. Huns become Vikings, Mameluks become Kurds, Turks become Aliens in your ilisionary world.

[Bukharan]

I think Demir Kagan's proverb refers to the message below. What could depict a Jahil better than that?

Because they are blacks, Barlas are Turks. Mongols had colony in Turkistan and they teached Mongols Turkic? Can you believe it? French empire teached Frenchmen in Africa Zulu language, alright :lol:

Now we've approached the forbidden zone in your theories: race. Now you admit the notion of 'race', nah? They are black and you are not. And 'black' is not a linguistic definition, as you might know. As for the Barlas, the academic world disappoints you: they are Turkicized Mongols.

Anyway, I think it is too early for you to take part in proper factual debates. You could be good in fictitious arguments. It's ok though. You can develop your skills of course. Only if you go back to your books.

Cheers

[Karayılan]

Academic datas and primary sources? I gave an academic data of one of the most well-known Turkologists, Jean Paul-Roux already and I gave you lots of primary sources. I gave you lots of examples from Turko-Mongol history. I gave even ideas of historicians thinking like you. Still believing or not is on your hands ;)

Cahile kitap gunes olsa yine de onu aydinlatamaz

True as hell!

[Karayılan]

I Now we've approached the forbidden zone in your theories: race. Now you admit the notion of 'race', nah? They are black and you are not. And 'black' is not a linguistic definition, as you might know. As for the Barlas, the academic world disappoints you: they are Turkicized Mongols.

"O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honourable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert" 49:13

A male and female; all mankind are sons and daughters of them. Is your sybling from a different race than you?

That's not my theory, That's Allah's, talk to Him.

[Bukharan]

Academic datas and primary sources? I gave an academic data of one of the most well-known Turkologists, Jean Paul-Roux already and I gave you lots of primary sources. I gave you lots of examples from Turko-Mongol history. I gave even ideas of historicians thinking like you. Still believing or not is on your hands

:lol:Even your greatest Turkologist couldn't prove Barlas being Turkic, could he?

True as hell!

Yes, and you proved it quite successfully.

What do you want to get from this debate? Will it make you feel complete and complex free if the Barlas were really of the Turkic stock? Ok, retreat to your illusionary world again and just make yourself believe that the entire world knows about Barlas being Turks. If that's what you lack in your personality.

Your silence about 'Black' and 'White' races tells me that you've failed to defend your previous 'theory' of a raceless world.

[Bukharan]

"O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honourable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert" 49:13

A male and female; all mankind are sons and daughters of them. Is your sybling from a different race than you?

That's not my theory, That's Allah's, talk to Him.

Cool. That's what's written in Qor'an. And the comment below is yours that contradicts Qor'an:

Because they are blacks, Barlas are Turks. Mongols had colony in Turkistan and they teached Mongols Turkic? Can you believe it? French empire teached Frenchmen in Africa Zulu language, alright

[Karayılan]

Black, White or Yellow race... Brekisefal, Dolikosefal or Mezosefal... Negroid, Mongoloid or Caucasid... As I said,

There is only one race on the earth: Human Race

Even an antropologists will say like me, Believe it ;)

Good luck to you man. I'm not expecting anything from this debate. I only talked about my nation's history with a Mongol lover Tajik. That's all.

[SAMARKANDI!]

I think Demir Kagan's proverb refers to the message below. What could depict a Jahil better than that?



Now we've approached the forbidden zone in your theories: race. Now you admit the notion of 'race', nah? They are black and you are not. And 'black' is not a linguistic definition, as you might know. As for the Barlas, the academic world disappoints you: they are Turkicized Mongols.

Anyway, I think it is too early for you to take part in proper factual debates. You could be good in fictitious arguments. It's ok though. You can develop your skills of course. Only if you go back to your books.

Cheers

Do u want to get banned again? :D
If u had well developed skills and proper manner, u wouldnt be banned and surely wouldnt be confronted with so much negativity.

All ur arguments, the message behind them and the way u argue reflect racism and persian superiority. I think u should step down lil bit and start facing the truth and think bigger that however u argue, however u disagree, we r all Allah's creation and we all are the same humans and there is no better nation. You are better only by the goodness u spread around u not by the fights u start or things u fabricate, or by nationalism implied in ur statements and ideas.

peace ;)

[Karayılan]

Cool. That's what's written in Qor'an. And the comment below is yours that contradicts Qor'an:If only one Black or Turk is not a HUMAN, yes I contradicted Qur'an. :cool:

[Bukharan]

Black, White or Yellow race... Brekisefal, Dolikosefal or Mezosefal... Negroid, Mongoloid or Caucasid... As I said,



Even an antropologists will say like me, Believe it ;)

Good luck to you man. I'm not expecting anything from this debate. I only talked about my nation's history with a Mongol lover Tajik. That's all.


lol :lol: That was a disgraceful retreat I'd say. You left a big contradiction behind. Just compare the message above with your message below and you will laugh as well:

Because they are blacks, Barlas are Turks. Mongols had colony in Turkistan and they teached Mongols Turkic? Can you believe it? French empire teached Frenchmen in Africa Zulu language, alright

I simply told you the facts known to the unbiased world. Maybe the truth was bitter to you. But to me, it makes no difference if Tamerlane was a Mongol or a Turkic tyrant. And it doesn't show my affection to none of you folks. It's just the truth we have to accept.

But as I said, you are still totally in charge of your illusions. Make yourself complete please and don't make me feel guilty. I didn't want to hurt you;)

[Karayılan]

Bukharan, you better learn the difference between NATION and RACE. It will be good for you...

[Bukharan]

Bukharan, you better learn the difference between NATION and RACE. It will be good for you...

Oops, I thought you left in ire.

Are you saying now that there is a 'black' nation?

[SAMARKANDI!]

Oops, I thought you left in ire.

Are you saying now that there is a 'black' nation?

Thanks for providing me with the funniest joke of the day before going to bed.



How can u assume that he left mad? does that mean that u feel happy that he is upset? or does that mean u r provoking him into more meaningless argument? or do u expect him to start fighting u with fabrications that u always use?

Why do u always push people into fights? why do u always say things that never have been said?

[Karayılan]

the facts known to the unbiased world

It's just the truth we have to accept.



- There are hundreds of history INTERPRETIONS.

- They are not FACTS.

- We don't have to accept.

- That's to unbiased world.

Ogedei Khan told that Barlas came from Bodonchir's blood.
Timur told that Barlas came from Atrak's(Turks) blood.

I belive Timur, you believe Ogedei.

****The End****

:lol:

[Karayılan]

Are you saying now that there is a 'black' nation?No, I'm saying that there are millions of black HUMAN. But it is not our topic.

[Bukharan]

How can u assume that he left mad? does that mean that u feel happy that he is upset? or does that mean u r provoking him into more meaningless argument? or do u expect him to start fighting u with fabrications that u always use?

Why do u always push people into fights? why do u always say things that never have been said?

SAMARKANDI! Now as we can see, you are feeling furious. Before replying to the torrent of your accusations I wanna ask you: who are you in this forum? Why do you keep interfering with your personal baggage on people? Have you been instructed to do so? Show me the proof before questioning any further.

Now, tell me what have I fabricated in the latest argument?

[Bukharan]

Well. That took you too long. I'll attend to your moans and groans (if there are any) tomorrow.

On topic: You haven't told me yet what you are doing in Timurids' thread with nothing to add to our knowledge.

[Karayılan]

My last word about the RACE issue;

A French and English who both has R1a Y-Chromosome Haplogroup looks different to each other. Black hair, big nose, brown eyes to the French, blonde hair, little pretty nose , blue eyes to the English. Racists should think about that, we accept both of them as humans. :lol:

[SAMARKANDI!]

SAMARKANDI! Now as we can see, you are feeling furious. Before replying to the torrent of your accusations I wanna ask you: who are you in this forum? Why do you keep interfering with your personal baggage on people? Have you been instructed to do so? Show me the proof before questioning any further.

Now, tell me what have I fabricated in the latest argument?

I dont have to go too far.

here is one.
Oops, I thought you left in ire.
Are you saying now that there is a 'black' nation?
Well. That took you too long. I'll attend to your moans and groans (if there are any) tomorrow.


U also accused me in racism many times. pls refer to ur posts. and good luck :D ;)


On topic: You haven't told me yet what you are doing in Timurids' thread with nothing to add to our knowledge

I have expressed my opinion about the topic of this thread earlier. The reason of my later statements is the fabrications and provocations that u make up.

peace

[Bukharan]

My last word about the RACE issue;

A French and English who both has R1a Y-Chromosome Haplogroup looks different to each other. Black hair, big nose, brown eyes to the French, blonde hair, little pretty nose , blue eyes to the English. Racists should think about that, we accept both of them as humans. :lol:

Really, I never knew about all those chromosomes and their numbers. And hearing that from a person who denies human races altogether is weird indeed. Apart from acknowledging the 'black' race, now you admit a funny difference between 'French big noses' and 'English pretty noses'.

That was an extra effort to deepen the theoretical crisis you've faced my friend.

[Karayılan]

No, I wanna let you understand that looking doesn't mean race. Those numbers were given ancient human clans as names by Antropologists, at least you learned something (:

[Bukharan]

I dont have to go too far.

here is one.



U also accused me in racism many times. pls refer to ur posts. and good luck :D ;)



I have expressed my opinion about the topic of this thread earlier. The reason of my later statements is the fabrications and provocations that u make up.

peace

Kuda bezhish'? Stay a bit longer now and prove your false accusation.

The following quote is by Karayilan:

"Bukharan, you better learn the difference between NATION and RACE. It will be good for you..."

This is what he said about black people. As we assumed that he denies races, only NATION remains. Doesn't it imply that he thinks there is a black nation?

Gain some courage to answer my previous questions as well. Who are you to interfere in each of my conversations with your prejudice, screams and yells? And all others related to the same. PM your answer. Don't flood all topics with your personal quarrels.

And yes. You have shown a real hatred against Tajiks throughout your postings.

[Bukharan]

No, I wanna let you understand that looking doesn't mean race. Those numbers were given ancient human clans as names by Antropologists, at least you learned something (:

Yes, I learnt many things from me. As a non-racist I understood that some of racists could be disguised under Qor'anic verses.

You didn't tell me how come you think there is a 'black nation'?

[Bukharan]

This thread could be closed as well. The question got its answer:

Timurids=Uzbeks?
No, Timurids=Barlas

All the best dudes

[Karayılan]

This is what he said about black people. As we assumed that he denies races, only NATION remains. Doesn't it imply that he thinks there is a black nation?

A black horse or white horse, they are all horses, black and white are only colours of the horses. Nigerian, Malawian, Somalian nations' colours are black. What I said is only hue.

That's the end of our class. See you next lesson.

[Karayılan]

Bukharan: "Awww, look at him he said black, he should be a racist who doesn't accept races"

Don't worry, Tajik, human race is not stupid as you thing :cool:

[KOYUNCU]

This thread could be closed as well. The question got its answer:

Timurids=Uzbeks?
No, Timurids=Barlas

All the best dudes
what!!! i meaning u