Minuses of gender equality

[Uzbekxonim]

Dear Forumers,

let's talk in this thread about disadvatages of equality between men and women. If you say about some disadvantage, please tell if it is a disadvantage for a man or a woman, and why you think so.


Dorogie forumchane,

davayte v etom threde pogovorim o minusah ravenstva mejdu mujchinoy e jenshinoy. Esli vi nazivaete kakoy-libo minus, pojaluysta, ukajite dlya kogo eto yavlyaetsya minusom (mujchini ili jenshini) i pochemu vi tak schitaete. .

[Samimiy]

A few days ago I went to a restaurant in New York, with a couple of friends. When the couple who was dining at the table next to ours finished their dinner, the waiter gave the check to the lady. One of my friends, who is from France, was outraged when he saw this. He was ranting for about 5 minutes, saying things like: "How can he give the tab to the lady? This is insult to the man! In France the waiter could get his butt kicked for that!"

It turns out that some restaurants in France have two kinds of menus: one with prices, for men; and one without prices, for women. :)

So to make the long story short, the disadvantage of gender inequality is that women have to pay at restaurants, too! :)

[anatoliydaev]

Are we discussing here also the cases when men rights and obligations converge to those women used to have?
If yes, the main disadvantage of it was that I had to cook everyday and go shoping while my ex was finishing her PhD thesis :)

[Ma'ruf]

As women are considered to be a suppresed side in gender equality issues...I can think of one diasadvantage of havenig equal rights with men...''Equal rights = equal responsibilities''.

No free dinner!:D
No help with heavy luggage!
No priority seats in public transport!
Forget about free tickets to theatres,cinemas...:)

[Uzbekxonim]

Are we discussing here also the cases when men rights and obligations converge to those women used to have?
If yes, the main disadvantage of it was that I had to cook everyday and go shoping while my ex was finishing her PhD thesis :)

since i adressed "forumers" not only "ladies", then it means both :)

[AL-Midwest]

In college years I took class "Gender Economics" studied psychological, biological, historical, social and financial differences between the genders. The whole class knew that there is a gender inequalities in different aspects of life. However we didn't know how bad it was, once we interpreted into graphs and statistical numbers.
I have seen a lot of women who way quaified to do a better job compared to guys in my industry, but they will not get that amount of money what I get on the same job. That's sad reality.

[Uzbekxonim]

the disadvatage of gender equality that i experienced was that as equal with two male collegues of mine (one Greek, one French) i had to work until late in the evening and weekends, while my baby (who was less than one year old) and my husband would stay home alone having some snacks like biscuits or candies... :(

and none of my male collegues said: "why don't u take a day shift, and i can work in the evening or weekend shift, so that u could go home earlier", equal rules and requirements were applied to me. that time i thought i'd better work in Uzbekistan, with lack of gender equality and where the mentality of men would allow me go home earlier and not work in weekends :)

[melo]

the disadvatage of gender equality that i experienced was that as equal with two male collegues of mine (one Greek, one French) i had to work until late in the evening and weekends, while my baby (who was less than one year old) and my husband would stay home alone having some snacks like biscuits or candies... :(

and none of my male collegues said: "why don't u take a day shift, and i can work in the evening or weekend shift, so that u could go home earlier", equal rules and requirements were applied to me. that time i thought i'd better work in Uzbekistan, with lack of gender equality and where the mentality of men would allow me go home earlier and not work in weekends :)

If you want those advantags wouldn't your option be to not work and instead stay at home? Or you could take a lesser job that requires less of your time. If you get paid the same as me and have the same job as me than I would expect you to work the same hours as me.

[Shambles]

In college years I took class "Gender Economics" studied psychological, biological, historical, social and financial differences between the genders. The whole class knew that there is a gender inequalities in different aspects of life. However we didn't know how bad it was, once we interpreted into graphs and statistical numbers.
I have seen a lot of women who way quaified to do a better job compared to guys in my industry, but they will not get that amount of money what I get on the same job. That's sad reality.

This sad reality doesn't apply at all to Nordic countries, especially to Sweden, Norway and Finland... On the contrary, loads of qualified males would never get some positions if there were any female applicants... So I would restrain from applying one-size-fits-all approach to all the countries and societies...

One of the minuses is that males in the western part of the world would never offer some help to women with their heavy luggage... No matter what people think, it's a XXI century and women are as strong as men... supposedly:?

P.S. The irony is that many women would like to have more rights but at the same time they are strongly against the responsibilities coming with those rights...

[melo]

This sad reality doesn't apply at all to Nordic countries, especially to Sweden, Norway and Finland... On the contrary, loads of qualified males would never get some positions if there were any female applicants... So I would restrain from applying one-size-fits-all approach to all the countries and societies...

One of the minuses is that males in the western part of the world would never offer some help to women with their heavy luggage... No matter what people think, it's a XXI century and women are as strong as men... supposedly:?

P.S. The irony is that many women would like to have more rights but at the same time they are strongly against the responsibilities coming with those rights...

I would agree also that women are assured jobs they do not qualify for in the United States too. For example why would you have women firefighters or policmen? They are given the job to have diversity, but everyone knows a 90 pound women is not the equal of a man in those two porfessions. Anything related to the government will hire a certain percentage of women regardless of their qualifications versus the male applicants.

[supervisor]

Gender equality may bring up a problem of social domination in family. By default, families are thought to be driven by men. If the situation changes to absolute gender equality, 50% of women will have to take the responsibility of leading the family through the deeps and difficulties of everyday life. Most probably, not every woman will be able and not every woman will want to live her life as a leader in the family.

[melo]

Gender equality may bring up a problem of social domination in family. By default, families are thought to be driven by men. If the situation changes to absolute gender equality, 50% of women will have to take the responsibility of leading the family through the deeps and difficulties of everyday life. Most probably, not every woman will be able and not every woman will want to live her life as a leader in the family.


Today's world is full of loser men who "start" a family and move on. Who do you think becomes the head of that family? It is not always by choice.

[AL-Midwest]

This sad reality doesn't apply at all to Nordic countries, especially to Sweden, Norway and Finland... On the contrary, loads of qualified males would never get some positions if there were any female applicants... So I would restrain from applying one-size-fits-all approach to all the countries and societies...

One of the minuses is that males in the western part of the world would never offer some help to women with their heavy luggage... No matter what people think, it's a XXI century and women are as strong as men... supposedly:?

P.S. The irony is that many women would like to have more rights but at the same time they are strongly against the responsibilities coming with those rights...

You might be right, since you are more closelly located to those places. My class and observation purelly based on the US.

[Frida]

P.S. The irony is that many women would like to have more rights but at the same time they are strongly against the responsibilities coming with those rights...

like what? facts please?!

[Magnolia]

and none of my male collegues said: "why don't u take a day shift, and i can work in the evening or weekend shift, so that u could go home earlier", equal rules and requirements were applied to me. that time i thought i'd better work in Uzbekistan, with lack of gender equality and where the mentality of men would allow me go home earlier and not work in weekends :)

Im sorry,but you have described a situation at work place,and how/why do you expect sympathy from coworkers?
Thats not minus in gender inequality,thats hard reality of one.

[Frida]

No free dinner!:D
No help with heavy luggage!
No priority seats in public transport!
Forget about free tickets to theatres,cinemas...:)


fine with me. going dutch is much better anyways, you pay for your own meal and do not have to worry about anything. in uzbekistan, guys insist paying for you and then you have to wonder what they actually want from you.

[Frida]

the disadvatage of gender equality that i experienced was that as equal with two male collegues of mine (one Greek, one French) i had to work until late in the evening and weekends, while my baby (who was less than one year old) and my husband would stay home alone having some snacks like biscuits or candies... :(

and none of my male collegues said: "why don't u take a day shift, and i can work in the evening or weekend shift, so that u could go home earlier", equal rules and requirements were applied to me. that time i thought i'd better work in Uzbekistan, with lack of gender equality and where the mentality of men would allow me go home earlier and not work in weekends :)

uzbekxonim, i think you are experiencing some kind of "clash of gender roles". :D for your collegues you are just another employee, just like them. if you get paid same as they are why should they let you go? gender equality -- vo vsey krase :)

however, at home there must be some kind of inequality, otherwise your husband would fix a meal instead of eating bisquits. so you play a role of a traditional woman at home, and asked to ignore those gender roles at work. i think that happens to everyone, however, in your case the difference between "the hats" you wear at home and work might be very drastic.

as for working in Uzbekistan, it depands. During hisobot times, there is no gender inequality there. :D in fact, in those times there is no notion of gender at all :) everyone is reffered as "someone who is about to get screwed if Hisobot is not ready".

[Frida]

anyways, i do not think we reached the moment when women and man are treated the same way. women are still discriminated against. i agree that lots of things are done for sake of diversity or affirmative action of some kind. men still dominate in many fields, and women are not allowed not because they are not capable, but its all about status quo.

[Researche maker]

anyways, i do not think we reached the moment when women and man are treated the same way. women are still discriminated against. i agree that lots of things are done for sake of diversity or affirmative action of some kind. men still dominate in many fields, and women are not allowed not because they are not capable, but its all about status quo.

The notion that men and women are equal is not true, at least we are different physically, because of that, for example, labor law has very discriminative provisions that don't allow women to do specific types of work or work more than specified time(wanna change that?). Many countries that have aging society or unsatisfactory man power problems give women a lot of privileges, so that they get interested in having children. Making gender equality as something normal in the society brings up such vices as Uzbekhonim mentioned, men will not help carry heavy stuff both at work and life. When I help women carrying heavy stuff they are always very grateful, I never encountered negative attitudes yet. Besides, most countries legally give equal opportunities to both genders, it is just social perception that makes difference.
In short, 50%-50% gender equality is bad for both sexes.

[Shambles]

like what? facts please?!

Da, elementarno, nosit' tyajesti, rabotat' na ravnyh, platit' za sebya vsegda i vezde, otkryvat' sebe dveri... ya dumayu ty sama smojesh' prodoljit' etot spisok... :D

Seychas ty nachnesh' govorit', chto ty sama nosish' tyajesti, rabotayesh' po polnoy, platish' vsegda za sebya i otkryvayesh' sebe dveri, no ya govoryu ne pro tebya i daje ne pro sebya, ibo i'm ok with doing all those stuff for ladies...:D Eto obschie tendentsii i ot nih ne otkrestit'sya...;)

[Uzbekxonim]

If you want those advantags wouldn't your option be to not work and instead stay at home? Or you could take a lesser job that requires less of your time. If you get paid the same as me and have the same job as me than I would expect you to work the same hours as me.

that is an American and gender-equal approach. In some offices in Uzbekistan men tend to show gentlemenness and help Ladies ;)

[Uzbekxonim]

Im sorry,but you have described a situation at work place,and how/why do you expect sympathy from coworkers?
Thats not minus in gender inequality,thats hard reality of one.
i consider it as minus of gender equality (not inequality) ;)

[Uzbekxonim]

fine with me. going dutch is much better anyways, you pay for your own meal and do not have to worry about anything. in uzbekistan, guys insist paying for you and then you have to wonder what they actually want from you.

addition: after that, usually, women wonder how much i owe him, how he expects me to give him the pay-back.

[Uzbekxonim]

uzbekxonim, i think you are experiencing some kind of "clash of gender roles". :D for your collegues you are just another employee, just like them. if you get paid same as they are why should they let you go? gender equality -- vo vsey krase :)
".

i didn't expect them to let me work less hours but rather same hours in daytime and during the working week ;)

[Uzbekxonim]

When I help women carrying heavy stuff they are always very grateful, I never encountered negative attitudes yet. Besides, most countries legally give equal opportunities to both genders, it is just social perception that makes difference.
In short, 50%-50% gender equality is bad for both sexes.

i had one case relevant to that post. i arrived in a group of people (men and women) to some airport, we went to collect luggage. as soos as i saw my heave luggage i looked around to find a man to help me with it and put it on stroller. i found one, he helped and put my bag on stroller, when another female member of the gruop (Europenian) was trying to lif her heavy bag, the same guy proposed his help. She refused and said half joking, half serious: "Are you trying to insult me by showing me that i am incapable of lifting my own bag?!:rolleyes: No way!"

i thought that she is a fool :lol:

[melo]

that is an American and gender-equal approach. In some offices in Uzbekistan men tend to show gentlemenness and help Ladies ;)


Sorry I don't understnd why you would get to work less anywhere. :shock: If yu are not capable of doing the job I would not be any more willing to help you if you are a woman. It basically sounds like you want to use your role as a women to work less, but get the same benefits and pay as the men doing the same job. Hopefully I am misunderstanding something. It also seems strange to me that you husband is okay with having aworking wife, but can;t make food for himself. You are basically describing a situation where women are not only equal but actaully receive preferential treatment. :shock:

[Uzbekxonim]

Sorry I don't understnd why you would get to work less anywhere. :shock: If yu are not capable of doing the job I would not be any more willing to help you if you are a woman. It basically sounds like you want to use your role as a women to work less, but get the same benefits and pay as the men doing the same job. Hopefully I am misunderstanding something.

yes, u misunderstood. pls see my reply to Frida.

[melo]

yes, u misunderstood. pls see my reply to Frida.

I guess I don'tunderstad. The men don't work all the time during the normal work week too?

[Uzbekxonim]

I guess I don'tunderstad. The men don't work all the time during the normal work week too?

listen, u will have dificulties to understand 'cos u have similar mentality as my european collegues.
my concern that from a point of humanity a person who knows that a baby less than one year old cannot fall asleep (night sleep) without his mother and get more frustrated more the mother is absent, this person could show some understanding and show some flexibility, understood?

[Magnolia]

i didn't expect them to let me work less hours but rather same hours in daytime and during the working week ;)

When you signed your contract has it mentioned anywhere that your coworkers are responsible for the shift you have agreed to take?
If you were unhappy with your woking hours you should have contacted your supervisor/employer instead of holding grudge against your coworkers.
Coworkers are people too,they have their own families to get to.

As for working arrangments in Uzbekistan,did any of those women ask guys, who work late hours and show gentlemenness towards ladies,if they wanted to go home earlier to their families?
Just to present some proof to my point of view,my brother-in-law works late hours and shows gentlemenness which results in him missing out on very important moments in life of his less that one year old son.

[melo]

listen, u will have dificulties to understand 'cos u have similar mentality as my european collegues.
my concern that from a point of humanity a person who knows that a baby less than one year old cannot fall asleep (night sleep) without his mother and get more frustrated more the mother is absent, this person could show some understanding and show some flexibility, understood?

And my point is that mothers with children under a year old should generally not work or work in a job that allows them that flexibility (or part time). Those jobs do exist in western societies. I know for a fact. ;) I don't think in Uzbekistan they would allow a mother such flexibility in a challenging high profile job either. My point is that it is not gender eqaulity you are talking about or western society. I think it is true everywhere. The opposite would be a scoiety that does not expect women to work.

If the job requires overtime, everyone is expected to work overtime. That is not about western society or gender equity. I prefer just to stay away from jobs that require very much overtime. :D

[Uzbekxonim]

When you signed your contract has it mentioned anywhere that your coworkers are responsible for the shift you have agreed to take?
If you were unhappy with your woking hours you should have contacted your supervisor/employer instead of holding grudge against your coworkers.
Coworkers are people too,they have their own families to get to.

As for working arrangments in Uzbekistan,did any of those women ask guys, who work late hours and show gentlemenness towards ladies,if they wanted to go home earlier to their families?
Just to present some proof to my point of view,my brother-in-law works late hours and shows gentlemenness which results in him missing out on very important moments in life of his less that one year old son.

hey, cool down a bit, why are u so agressive? and please don't teach how should i behave in my workplace, ok?:rolleyes: and what makes u think that i grudged against my collegues? don't make pre-judgement if u don't know the facts.

i assume that your brother-in-law works late not because of being gentle but because of the working system (if he is working in Uzb-n).

seems like the life did not teach u that reality isn't what is written on paper (in the given case is the contract).

[Uzbekxonim]

And my point is that mothers with children under a year old should generally not work or work in a job that allows them that flexibility (or part time). Those jobs do exist in western societies. I know for a fact. ;) I don't think in Uzbekistan they would allow a mother such flexibility in a challenging high profile job either. My point is that it is not gender eqaulity you are talking about or western society. I think it is true everywhere. The opposite would be a scoiety that does not expect women to work.

If the job requires overtime, everyone is expected to work overtime. That is not about western society or gender equity. I prefer just to stay away from jobs that require very much overtime. :D

in my work place the maternity leave is 4 months only, so i had no options in order to keep the job ;)

[Magnolia]

hey, cool down a bit, why are u so agressive? and please don't teach how should i behave in my workplace, ok?:rolleyes: and what makes u think that i grudged against my collegues? don't make pre-judgement if u don't know the facts.

i assume that your brother-in-law works late not because of being gentle but because of the working system (if he is working in Uzb-n).

seems like the life did not teach u that reality isn't what is written on paper (in the given case is the contract).

Im not being aggressive nor am I teaching you how to behave in your workplace ;)

My point is that many nursing mothers (and for a fact I know two of them) had to work late hours,be mothers and still keep their jobs.
One of the ladies I mentioned had to go back to work when her daughter was 2 months old,now is this fair?
She also breastfed her baby,left work during lunch hour to do so and came back to work.
Surprisingly her daughter grew as normal baby would :rolleyes:
And both of them work in Turkmenistan where you'd think "flexibility" towards women is present.

As for contract,thats lesson you learned,not me.

[Uzbekxonim]

Im not being aggressive nor am I teaching you how to behave in your workplace ;)

My point is that many nursing mothers (and for a fact I know two of them) had to work late hours,be mothers and still keep their jobs.
One of the ladies I mentioned had to go back to work when her daughter was 2 months old,now is this fair?
She also breastfed her baby,left work during lunch hour to do so and came back to work.
Surprisingly her daughter grew as normal baby would :rolleyes:
And both of them work in Turkmenistan where you'd think "flexibility" towards women is present.

As for contract,thats lesson you learned,not me.

i came back to office when my son was 2 months old, i do understand how unfair "equality" things can be.
ps. thanx that u changed your tone.

[StU]

Uzbekxonim, po povodu tvoey situaciyi. Odna istoriya v Germaniyi:

Devushka rabotaet v auditorskoy kompaniyi, gde konechno osnovnoy kontingent muzhchini, no ee shefinya tem ne menee jenshina, prichem takaya produtaya feministka. U nih vsegda sverhurochnie, i devushka govorit shefine - poimite menya pozhaluysta, u menya malenky rebenok i ya ne mogu dopozdna ostavatsya. A ta otvetila - vi znaete u menya net malenkogo rebenka, tak chto ya vas ne smogu ponyat. Tak chto...

[Uzbekxonim]

Uzbekxonim, po povodu tvoey situaciyi. Odna istoriya v Germaniyi:

Devushka rabotaet v auditorskoy kompaniyi, gde konechno osnovnoy kontingent muzhchini, no ee shefinya tem ne menee jenshina, prichem takaya produtaya feministka. U nih vsegda sverhurochnie, i devushka govorit shefine - poimite menya pozhaluysta, u menya malenky rebenok i ya ne mogu dopozdna ostavatsya. A ta otvetila - vi znaete u menya net malenkogo rebenka, tak chto ya vas ne smogu ponyat. Tak chto...

pohoje u menya bil identichniy sluchay - shefinya feministka bez parnya i rebenka ;)
ps. kak ti? zahodi na gmail.

[melo]

Uzbekxonim, po povodu tvoey situaciyi. Odna istoriya v Germaniyi:

Devushka rabotaet v auditorskoy kompaniyi, gde konechno osnovnoy kontingent muzhchini, no ee shefinya tem ne menee jenshina, prichem takaya produtaya feministka. U nih vsegda sverhurochnie, i devushka govorit shefine - poimite menya pozhaluysta, u menya malenky rebenok i ya ne mogu dopozdna ostavatsya. A ta otvetila - vi znaete u menya net malenkogo rebenka, tak chto ya vas ne smogu ponyat. Tak chto...

The only part I understand is audit firm and mostly men. :lol:

I worked at an international audit firm and it was probably half women. They made special arrangements for flex time that allowed women to work at different times and actually work less days. And this was in the evil and unfair United States where we hate families. ;)

[StU]

samiy yarkir primer ravenstva mezhdu polami ya perezhila v Uzbekistane, kogda s delegaciyey nemcev ezdila v Aralkum.
Tam v pustine zastryal nash jeep, gde sideli jenshini vmeste so mnoi i shef za rulem. Vse muzhchini prespokoino uehali na drugih mashinah v hotel, a mi zastryali v peskah i ni odna sobaka ne potrevozhilas gde nas nosit. Horosho chto mestnie nas po raciyi uslishali i pomogli, a to bi ostalis nochevat v pustine gde -20 bilo v to vremya. Priehali v hotel i ya konechno naletela na ostalnih nemcev: kak zhe tak kak vi posmeli ostavit jenshin i spokoino sidet tut v teple. Oni prespokoinenko otvetili - chto jenshini vse vzroslie ludi i sami za sebya otvechaut. Otvet bil ischerpivayushim.

[Black]

anyways, i do not think we reached the moment when women and man are treated the same way. women are still discriminated against. i agree that lots of things are done for sake of diversity or affirmative action of some kind. men still dominate in many fields, and women are not allowed not because they are not capable, but its all about status quo.

Одна из участниц, 21-летняя Хадиджа Хашими, поинтересовалась мнением двух посетителей - мужчины и женщины, рассматривающих ее картину, на которой изображен караван: люди и животные уходят за горизонт, женщины в голубых чадрах едут на осликах и верблюдах, мужчины сопровождают их пешком.

На вопрос: "Что вы видите на этой картине?", ярко накрашенная женщина в модном, спадающем с головы платке, ответила: "Эта картина показывает, что мужчины хотят управлять жизнью женщин так же, как они управляют животными. Женщины едут на верблюде – а мужчины ведут и верблюда и их, куда хотят".

Мужчина в традиционной одежде, стоявший неподалеку, по-другому описал то, что увидел на той же картине. "Мужчины заботятся о своих женщинах, предоставляя им почетное и удобное место. Они берут на себя ответственность за выбор правильного пути и обеспечение всех нужд своих спутниц. Женщины имеют право доехать до пункта назначения с большим комфортом, не думая о том, как найти дорогу, чем накормить верблюда и где разбить удобную стоянку", - сказал он.

[Shambles]

Одна из участниц, 21-летняя Хадиджа Хашими, поинтересовалась мнением двух посетителей - мужчины и женщины, рассматривающих ее картину, на которой изображен караван: люди и животные уходят за горизонт, женщины в голубых чадрах едут на осликах и верблюдах, мужчины сопровождают их пешком.

На вопрос: "Что вы видите на этой картине?", ярко накрашенная женщина в модном, спадающем с головы платке, ответила: "Эта картина показывает, что мужчины хотят управлять жизнью женщин так же, как они управляют животными. Женщины едут на верблюде – а мужчины ведут и верблюда и их, куда хотят".

Мужчина в традиционной одежде, стоявший неподалеку, по-другому описал то, что увидел на той же картине. "Мужчины заботятся о своих женщинах, предоставляя им почетное и удобное место. Они берут на себя ответственность за выбор правильного пути и обеспечение всех нужд своих спутниц. Женщины имеют право доехать до пункта назначения с большим комфортом, не думая о том, как найти дорогу, чем накормить верблюда и где разбить удобную стоянку", - сказал он.

Black, ssylku mojno? Interesniy post...

[Black]

Shambles, statya iz www.islamnews.ru, nikakogo otnoshenie k dannomu topiku ne imeet, krome te paragrafi ya privel na verhu.

Statya nazivaetsya Молодые художницы организовали передвижную выставку в Афганистане (http://www.islamnews.ru/news-10266.html), nazivaniya statyi govorit sama za sebya (o chem ona).

[PainKiller]

Wait a sec! I can sit for hours and think and I dont see any disadvantages of gender equality.
And when it comes to a female employe who has a baby and family, I would think that it is her personal life and it has nothing to do with work. I understand occasional cases when baby is sick and the parent has to leave early regardless of their sex. But I dont understand women who have one year old baby and CHOOSE to work, and then complain. I believe, having a baby is a tremendous responsibility and both parents should sit down and discuss the arrangements regarding the work and taking care of baby together. If you dont want your husband and your baby to eat snacks while you are at work:
a-let your husband do some minor cooking;
b-if your husband is not capable of cooking, cook when you have time prior to actual dinner;
c-hire a babysitter who will feed your child and put him to sleep(of course if you can afford)
d-if none of the above works, stay home with your child and take care of him.

Overall, I think that giving some sort of special benefits to female employes with babies and other private matters is very unfair towards other people who work with them. And the business world runns of numbers and statistics-the employe who does not live up to the standards and productivity demands put upon them, will be soon replaced by someone who is capable of doing the job, and bringing the profit to the company. No hurt feelings, this is business.:)

[PainKiller]

And besides, Uzbekhonim, that male coworker of yours may also have a family and a wife waiting for him to come home. I would hate my husband to stay longer hours, because his female colleage's child. What about OUR baby who needs his father? What about his responsibilities as a husband and Me?:rolleyes: Once in a while call of good will and him just being nice and helping out and staying late at work is different thing, but when it is a constant occasion, it would be bad for the family of that man as well. I dont see anything bad in this. We r grown ups, and we all have our share of problems and responsiblities.

[nemets]

я очень часто вижу в германии как у дискаунтеров закупаются некоторые традиционные турецкие и арабские семьи. мужик обычно стоит на улице, разговаривает по сотке, жена с тележкой с грудным ребёнком идут закупаться, выходят с полной тележкой, потом ребёнка сажает в коляску, вешает кучу сеток на коляску и одну берёт в руки. мужик даёт знак и уходит вперёд, продолжая разговаривать по телефону, а жена ковыляет загруженная сзади и одетая полностью с головы до ног в хиджаб, а если арабка, то в чёрном хиджабе , в котором только глаза видны. причём летом на юге германии очень жарко. обгонять она его не имеет права- он караванщик.
не могу представить себе такую картину в узбекистане, где базар делают только мужчины.
в общем получается, что в некоторых культурах женщины- это верблюды, а в других мужчины-верблюды. вот такое гендерное неравенство. :)

[PainKiller]

я очень часто вижу в германии как у дискаунтеров закупаются традиционные турецкие и арабские семьи. мужик обычно стоит на улице, разговаривает по сотке, жена с тележкой с грудным ребёнком идут закупаться, выходят с полной тележкой, потом ребёнка сажает в коляску, вешает кучу сеток на коляску и одну берёт в руки. мужик даёт знак и уходит вперёд, продолжая разговаривать по телефону, а жена ковыляет загруженная сзади и одетая полностью с головы до ног в хиджаб, а если арабка, то в чёрном хиджабе , в котором только глаза видны. причём летом на юге германии очень жарко. обгонять она его не имеет права- он караванщик.
не могу представить себе такую картину в узбекистане, где базар делают только мужчины.
в общем получается, что в некоторых культурах женщины- это верблюды, а в других мужчины-верблюды. вот такое гендерное неравенство. :)
Ne vse arabi takie. U meny arabi znakomie kak nashi uzbeki. Zvonyat jene "what do we need for house?" i delayut bazar sami.
A to chto ti opisal, eto lack of common sense and respect. Durak a ne muj.

[StU]

Overall, I think that giving some sort of special benefits to female employes with babies and other private matters is very unfair towards other people who work with them. And the business world runns of numbers and statistics-the employe who does not live up to the standards and productivity demands put upon them, will be soon replaced by someone who is capable of doing the job, and bringing the profit to the company. No hurt feelings, this is business.:)

eto tolko v Shtatah, ;) a u nas tut socialnaya ekonomika. Tak chto vse mogut kachat prava.
V Germaniyi est sistema - materinskaya zashita, to est pravo na dekretniy otpusk v vozvrasheniyem na firmu, pravda uje ne na svoe mesto.

[nemets]

Ne vse arabi takie. U meny arabi znakomie kak nashi uzbeki. Zvonyat jene "what do we need for house?" i delayut bazar sami.
A to chto ti opisal, eto lack of common sense and respect. Durak a ne muj.
У меня тоже есть такие знакомые, но вышеописанное явление очень распостранено и бросается в глаза. Я сделал меленькую поправку, дописав слово "некоторые" :)

[PainKiller]

eto tolko v Shtatah, ;) a u nas tut socialnaya ekonomika. Tak chto vse mogut kachat prava.
V Germaniyi est sistema - materinskaya zashita, to est pravo na dekretniy otpusk v vozvrasheniyem na firmu, pravda uje ne na svoe mesto.
Tak tut rech' idet ne o dekretnom otpuske, Stu. Rech' o employe kotoriy hochet domoy poran'she uyti ili prosto ne mozhet izza lichnoy jizni i lichniy problem bit' na rabote naravnoy produktivnoy planke s ostal'nimi.
PS. Ne znayu kak v Germany, no tut tozhe s uvol'neniem ochen' ostorozhno. Hotya, vot segodny vstretila znakomogo, ego ne fired, layed off eto mygko govorya emu kontrakt ne obnovili-govorit skazal o nachal'stve chto-to nemnogo nazad, i kto-to na nego nastuchal.

[StU]

Tak tut rech' idet ne o dekretnom otpuske, Stu. Rech' o employe kotoriy hochet domoy poran'she uyti ili prosto ne mozhet izza lichnoy jizni i lichniy problem bit' na rabote naravnoy produktivnoy planke s ostal'nimi.

nu pochemu, po idee ona imeet pravo na part-time, no v kazhdoy firme svoya praktika.

K tomu zhe produktivnaya planka v raznih firmah po raznomu ponimaetsa. V toy firme ozhidayut chto sotrudnik budet vikladivatsya na 150%, a ona mozhet tolko na 100%, tem ne menee svoi obyazatelstva po kontraktu s rabotodatelem ona ved vipolnyaet, ne tak li?

[Black]

я очень часто вижу в германии как у дискаунтеров закупаются некоторые традиционные турецкие и арабские семьи. мужик обычно стоит на улице, разговаривает по сотке, жена с тележкой с грудным ребёнком идут закупаться, выходят с полной тележкой, потом ребёнка сажает в коляску, вешает кучу сеток на коляску и одну берёт в руки. мужик даёт знак и уходит вперёд, продолжая разговаривать по телефону, а жена ковыляет загруженная сзади и одетая полностью с головы до ног в хиджаб, а если арабка, то в чёрном хиджабе , в котором только глаза видны. причём летом на юге германии очень жарко. обгонять она его не имеет права- он караванщик.
не могу представить себе такую картину в узбекистане, где базар делают только мужчины.в общем получается, что в некоторых культурах женщины- это верблюды, а в других мужчины-верблюды. вот такое гендерное неравенство. :)


Nemets, ti kogda posledniy raz bil na bazarah Uzbekistana?

[PainKiller]

nu pochemu, po idee ona imeet pravo na part-time, no v kazhdoy firme svoya praktika.

K tomu zhe produktivnaya planka v raznih firmah po raznomu ponimaetsa. V toy firme ozhidayut chto sotrudnik budet vikladivatsya na 150%, a ona mozhet tolko na 100%, tem ne menee svoi obyazatelstva po kontraktu s rabotodatelem ona ved vipolnyaet, ne tak li?
Stu, esli ona imeet po idee pravo na part time, to ona OFICIAL'NO rabotaet part time. A ne chislit'sya na full time a na rabote prt time. Tushunmayapsanmi san?:D Ne vezde rabotat' mozhno one day from home etc. Est' offisi gde nuzhno sidet' OT i DO v ramkah rabochego dnya. Ya skazala, chto esli u tebya i u menya odin i tot zhe shift i platyt nam odinakovo, ya ne ponimayu pochemu ti dolzhna imet' takie privililegii kak uhodit' domoy ran'she ostal'nih? Nu da, esli chasi ne ustraivayut, mozhno pogovorit' s nachal'stvom, i esli ne poluchitsya, pereyti na part time esli usloviya raboti pozvolyayut. No eto uzhe drugaya tema.:D

[Uzbekxonim]

But I dont understand women who have one year old baby and CHOOSE to work, and then complain.

Overall, I think that giving some sort of special benefits to female employes with babies and other private matters is very unfair towards other people who work with them. And the business world runns of numbers and statistics-the employe who does not live up to the standards and productivity demands put upon them, will be soon replaced by someone who is capable of doing the job, and bringing the profit to the company. No hurt feelings, this is business.:)

I wish to have apossibility to ask your opinion about these two points when u'll have a baby ;)

1) choice to work isn't always depand on will but mostly on nessacity.
2) about benefits to mummy-employees, why do you think the maternity leave exist then? why women with new-born children are given time off work? nature? fiziology?

[Uzbekxonim]

And besides, Uzbekhonim, that male coworker of yours may also have a family and a wife waiting for him to come home. I would hate my husband to stay longer hours, because his female colleage's child. What about OUR baby who needs his father? What about his responsibilities as a husband and Me?:rolleyes: Once in a while call of good will and him just being nice and helping out and staying late at work is different thing, but when it is a constant occasion, it would be bad for the family of that man as well. I dont see anything bad in this. We r grown ups, and we all have our share of problems and responsiblities.

what if the only thing that the male collegue wiould miss in this case is another long-lasting party? :lol:

[StU]

Stu, esli ona imeet po idee pravo na part time, to ona OFICIAL'NO rabotaet part time. A ne chislit'sya na full time a na rabote prt time. Tushunmayapsanmi san?:D Ne vezde rabotat' mozhno one day from home etc. Est' offisi gde nuzhno sidet' OT i DO v ramkah rabochego dnya. Ya skazala, chto esli u tebya i u menya odin i tot zhe shift i platyt nam odinakovo, ya ne ponimayu pochemu ti dolzhna imet' takie privililegii kak uhodit' domoy ran'she ostal'nih? Nu da, esli chasi ne ustraivayut, mozhno pogovorit' s nachal'stvom, i esli ne poluchitsya, pereyti na part time esli usloviya raboti pozvolyayut. No eto uzhe drugaya tema.:D

ti ne ponyala, esli ti pro moyu istoriyu, to devushka svoe "ot i do" otrabativaet, rech shla o sverhurochnih, kotorie ot vseh sotrudnikov ozhidayutsa, no v kontrakte razumeetsya ne ukazani. Ona ne mozhet tak kak u nee rebenok.

[PainKiller]

I wish to have apossibility to ask your opinion about these two points when u'll have a baby ;)

1) choice to work isn't always depand on will but mostly on nessacity.
2) about benefits to mummy-employees, why do you think the maternity leave exist then? why women with new-born children are given time off work? nature? fiziology?
Well, comparing maternity leave to unofficial benefints you were hinting on here is completely inappropirae. I am sure you had your Mommy leave and none of your male coworkers complained, eh?
PS. I believe in strong work ethic, and if I am in a position where I have to compromise my work and being a good mommy, Maybe I will have to look for a different job which will allow me to spend more time with my baby and do my best at work? Hell knows, but I am not kind of a person who takes of her job because of family matters, I will try to think of these problems ahead of time. Preventive mentality.

[Uzbekxonim]

Stu, esli ona imeet po idee pravo na part time, to ona OFICIAL'NO rabotaet part time. A ne chislit'sya na full time a na rabote prt time. Tushunmayapsanmi san?:D Ne vezde rabotat' mozhno one day from home etc. Est' offisi gde nuzhno sidet' OT i DO v ramkah rabochego dnya. Ya skazala, chto esli u tebya i u menya odin i tot zhe shift i platyt nam odinakovo, ya ne ponimayu pochemu ti dolzhna imet' takie privililegii kak uhodit' domoy ran'she ostal'nih? Nu da, esli chasi ne ustraivayut, mozhno pogovorit' s nachal'stvom, i esli ne poluchitsya, pereyti na part time esli usloviya raboti pozvolyayut. No eto uzhe drugaya tema.:D

pohoje narod ne ponyal, red ob umenshenii kolichestvo extra-hrs ne idet, rech idet o tom kogda eti chas- day shift, evening or night shift, ponime? :)

[PainKiller]

ti ne ponyala, esli ti pro moyu istoriyu, to devushka svoe "ot i do" otrabativaet, rech shla o sverhurochnih, kotorie ot vseh sotrudnikov ozhidayutsa, no v kontrakte razumeetsya ne ukazani. Ona ne mozhet tak kak u nee rebenok.
Po moemu Uzbekhonim bila v neskol'ko drugoy situacii, Stu. Vot i ona sama, mozhet vse popodrobney obyasnit'.

[Uzbekxonim]

Well, comparing maternity leave to unofficial benefints you were hinting on here is completely inappropirae. I am sure you had your Mommy leave and none of your male coworkers complained, eh?
PS. I believe in strong work ethic, and if I am in a position where I have to compromise my work and being a good mommy, Maybe I will have to look for a different job which will allow me to spend more time with my baby and do my best at work? Hell knows, but I am not kind of a person who takes of her job because of family matters, I will try to think of these problems ahead of time. Preventive mentality.

all that sounds good in theory, i hope u will succeed in practice ;)

[PainKiller]

pohoje narod ne ponyal, red ob umenshenii kolichestvo extra-hrs ne idet, rech idet o tom kogda eti chas- day shift, evening or night shift, ponime? :)
tak i ya ob etom, Stu podumala rech' idet ob overtime. Esli u vas shift night shift i vi na eto poshli, kogo vinit'? Eto zhe rabota. Vse nuzhno obgovorit'.

[Uzbekxonim]

Po moemu Uzbekhonim bila v neskol'ko drugoy situacii, Stu. Vot i ona sama, mozhet vse popodrobney obyasnit'.
v odnom iz svoih postov ya ukazala chto moya situatsiya bila identichna opisannoy STu v tom plane chto moya rabota predpologaet veremya ot vremeni extra hrs, no a vot chto eti extra hrs v evening or night shift are not spesified in contract.

[Uzbekxonim]

Vse nuzhno obgovorit'.
ya o tom je, flexibility among collegues, pravda je doljno bit? :)

[PainKiller]

v odnom iz svoih postov ya ukazala chto moya situatsiya bila identichna opisannoy STu.
Vi vse vnimtel'no prochli? Vse depents on company policy. U vas hadship policy? Ili prosto govorite o svoem night shift? Studentin govorit pro overtime gde vam govoryat mozhno uhodit' domoy? Which I believe is still wrong. What if a guy has a sick GF at home too?
Your management does not look at you as mother or father, he sees an employe who takes off earlier than the rest of people.

[Uzbekxonim]

Well, comparing maternity leave to unofficial benefints you were hinting on here is completely inappropirae. I am sure you had your Mommy leave and none of your male coworkers complained, eh?
PS. I believe in strong work ethic, and if I am in a position where I have to compromise my work and being a good mommy, Maybe I will have to look for a different job which will allow me to spend more time with my baby and do my best at work? Hell knows, but I am not kind of a person who takes of her job because of family matters, I will try to think of these problems ahead of time. Preventive mentality.

i didn't mean to compare but to let u figure out the main cause, which is while entitling a woman for maternity leave, the Legislater considers fisiological difference between men and women. therefore, since a male collegue cannot make his baby (who is used to fall asleep while being breasdfed) fall asleep as he doesn't have appropriate fiziology for that than a female collegue can face some flexibility, u see my point now?

[PainKiller]

i didn't mean to compare but to let u figure out the main cause, which is while entitling a woman for maternity leave, the Legislater considers fisiological difference between men and women. therefore, since a male collegue cannot make his baby (who is used to fall asleep while being breasdfed) fall asleep as he doesn't have appropriate fiziology for that than a female collegue can face some flexibility, u see my point now?
I do, and that is your opinion. I know my coworkers who have babies and who pump their milk before they come to work. They have husbands who cook and take care of their kids while they are at work-they all stay till their scheduled time.
PS. Those who did not want to compromise their baby-mommy situations-are staying home with their kids. I think it is a right thing to do. IMHO.

[Uzbekxonim]

Vi vse vnimtel'no prochli? Vse depents on company policy. U vas hadship policy? Ili prosto govorite o svoem night shift? Studentin govorit pro overtime gde vam govoryat mozhno uhodit' domoy? Which I believe is still wrong. What if a guy has a sick GF at home too?
Your management does not look at you as mother or father, he sees an employe who takes off earlier than the rest of people.

my main concern was not the workload but the timing of working, i could do the same job during the day time but as equal to male collegues i was requested to have evening and night shifts .

i belive that any employer should be first of all a human being, and the emloyees are human beings as well and not robots. at least, it is in the best interest of the employer that the employe has normal motivation as a result of understanding by his/her boss.

[PainKiller]

i belive that any employer should be first of all a human being, and the emloyees are human beings as well and not robots. at least, it is in the best interest of the employer that the employe has normal motivation as a result of understanding by his/her boss.
BINGO!!
There should be understanding between you and your BOSS. And all private matter which affect your job should be negotiated with your BOSS. It has nothing to do with gender equality. It is the same as with a guy who has a sick child or a disabled wife who has to negotiate his position with Management.
I think I am talking about the situation when a person thinks that some personal condition at home, gives them special benefit just because. U know it does not work thaty way, right?

[PainKiller]

Sluchay iz jizni:So mnoy rabotayut dve devushki. U odnoy rebyonok 11 mesyacev, u vtoroy doch' 8 let, hodit v shkolu.
Pervaya devushk postoyanno na rabote kak shtik-prihodit vo vremya, delaet svoyu rabotu i kak-to manage her baby at home.
Vtoraya devushka, poroy mozhet prosto opozdat'. Ili chasten'ko eyo rebyonok prihodit s ney na rabotu, ona sidit, kormit rebyonka, paru raz ushla kuda-to:rolleyes:
Mne esli ne skazat' chto-to, budet trouble ot svoego bosa. Prishlos' sest' i pogovorit' so svtoroy devushkoy. Govorit u neyo netu baby sitter i muzh na rabote, inogda ne mozhet zabrat' doch' so shkoli, i eyo brat can drop her off at work etc. Ya vse vislushla, no v konce-koncov, it all comes to her not performing at work and being late ot leaving early. Mne paru raz ustroili dopros-pochemu ey nichego ne govorish'? Trudno ey postoyanno delat' zamechaniya, no pered bosom za neyo tozhe ne hochetsya otduvatsya.:?

[Uzbekxonim]

BINGO!!
There should be understanding between you and your BOSS. And all private matter which affect your job should be negotiated with your BOSS. It has nothing to do with gender equality. It is the same as with a guy who has a sick child or a disabled wife who has to negotiate his position with Management.
I think I am talking about the situation when a person thinks that some personal condition at home, gives them special benefit just because. U know it does not work thaty way, right?

understanding between boss and u is a MUST, but if there is no understanding between collegues than the collegues appeal for equal treatment, then, BINGO - the boss applies equality rules rather then favorism or understaning :)

[Uzbekxonim]

Sluchay iz jizni:So mnoy rabotayut dve devushki. U odnoy rebyonok 11 mesyacev, u vtoroy doch' 8 let, hodit v shkolu.
Pervaya devushk postoyanno na rabote kak shtik-prihodit vo vremya, delaet svoyu rabotu i kak-to manage her baby at home.
Vtoraya devushka, poroy mozhet prosto opozdat'. Ili chasten'ko eyo rebyonok prihodit s ney na rabotu, ona sidit, kormit rebyonka, paru raz ushla kuda-to:rolleyes:
Mne esli ne skazat' chto-to, budet trouble ot svoego bosa. Prishlos' sest' i pogovorit' so svtoroy devushkoy. Govorit u neyo netu baby sitter i muzh na rabote, inogda ne mozhet zabrat' doch' so shkoli, i eyo brat can drop her off at work etc. Ya vse vislushla, no v konce-koncov, it all comes to her not performing at work and being late ot leaving early. Mne paru raz ustroili dopros-pochemu ey nichego ne govorish'? Trudno ey postoyanno delat' zamechaniya, no pered bosom za neyo tozhe ne hochetsya otduvatsya.:?

a tut uje ne disadvantage of gender equality, a pobolshey chasti equality beween two employees

[Sirena]

Ya ne viju nikakih minusov v gendernom ravenstve, netu minusov dlya togo kto hochet ravenstvo, yedinstvenniy minus eto to chto imenno "mi" doljni rojat i kormit rebenka:)
A vash sluchay po moyemu ne svyazan s minusami ravenstva, prosto kak vi uje sami napisali, doljen bit flexibility mejdu kollegami vne zavisimosti ot pola.

[Magnolia]

Wait a sec! I can sit for hours and think and I dont see any disadvantages of gender equality.
And when it comes to a female employe who has a baby and family, I would think that it is her personal life and it has nothing to do with work. I understand occasional cases when baby is sick and the parent has to leave early regardless of their sex. But I dont understand women who have one year old baby and CHOOSE to work, and then complain. I believe, having a baby is a tremendous responsibility and both parents should sit down and discuss the arrangements regarding the work and taking care of baby together. If you dont want your husband and your baby to eat snacks while you are at work:
a-let your husband do some minor cooking;
b-if your husband is not capable of cooking, cook when you have time prior to actual dinner;
c-hire a babysitter who will feed your child and put him to sleep(of course if you can afford)
d-if none of the above works, stay home with your child and take care of him.

Overall, I think that giving some sort of special benefits to female employes with babies and other private matters is very unfair towards other people who work with them. And the business world runns of numbers and statistics-the employe who does not live up to the standards and productivity demands put upon them, will be soon replaced by someone who is capable of doing the job, and bringing the profit to the company. No hurt feelings, this is business.:)

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/41.gifhttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/41.gifhttp://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/41.gif

[Kolobok]

You ladies baffle me...you either want it in or out. Paradox

[melo]

I just think you are expecting too much Uzbekhonim. I don't think it has anything to do with the society you live in either.

[Uzbekxonim]

listen, people, this thread isn't about me, please read the initial post of the thread. if u don't agree with my opinion, give your opinion on the topic and that's it, no need to judge mine.

[melo]

listen, people, this thread isn't about me, please read the initial post of the thread. if u don't agree with my opinion, give your opinion on the topic and that's it, no need to judge mine.

I think the topic of equaliy is too broad. You gave the only example and everyone started talking about it. :D I hope you were not offended.

In general equality is great, but what do you mean specifically? I have never seen any examples in life where men and women were treated exactly the same, nor do I ever expect to see that. Everyone is well aware that men and women have differences.

I would conisder equality being women can now vote, drive cars, and work. I am generally okay with all of that except for driving(just kidding- although lately it seems like all the really agressive drivers I see are women). Overall, I do not think it is good for society to expect everyone to work and there are definitley dangers when families put work ahead of children. I think one of the main reasons we need this so called equality is a basic breakdown in families. Men do not carry their responsibilities to their wives, children and families and therefore women need the ability to financially support themselves.

[Frida]

melo, "thanks" goes for everything else but "agressive female drivers". :D good points.

[Frida]

people, i think you should go back and read Sirena's point.

[Magnolia]

melo, "thanks" goes for everything else but "agressive female drivers". :D good points.

I agree on agressive drivers :lol: