Why Are Jews So Powerful?

[Bukharan]

Why are Jews so powerful?

Dr Farrukh Saleem
Islamabad, Pakistan

There are only 14 million Jews in the world; seven million in the Americas, five million in Asia, two million in Europe and 100,000 in Africa. For every single Jew in the world there are 100 Muslims. Yet, Jews are more than a hundred times more powerful than all the Muslims put together. Ever wondered why?

Albert Einstein, the most influential scientist of all time and TIME magazine's 'Person of the Century', was a Jew. Sigmund Freud -- id, ego, superego -- the father of psychoanalysis was a Jew. So were Karl Marx, Paul Samuelson and Milton Friedman.

Here are a few other Jews whose intellectual output has enriched the whole humanity: Benjamin Rubin gave humanity the vaccinating needle. Jonas Salk developed the first polio vaccine. Alert Sabin developed the improved live polio vaccine. Gertrude Elion gave us a leukaemia fighting drug. Baruch Blumberg developed the vaccination for Hepatitis B. Paul Ehrlich discovered a treatment for syphilis (a sexually transmitted disease). Elie Metchnikoff won a Nobel Prize in infectious diseases.

Bernard Katz won a Nobel Prize in neuromuscular transmission. Andrew Schally won a Nobel in endocrinology (disorders of the endocrine system; diabetes, hyperthyroidism). Aaron Beck founded Cognitive Therapy (psychotherapy to treat mental disorders, depression and phobias). Gregory Pincus developed the first oral contraceptive pill. George Wald won a Nobel for furthering our understanding of the human eye. Stanley Cohen won a Nobel in embryology (study of embryos and their development). Willem Kolff came up with the kidney dialysis machine.

Over the past 105 years, 14 million Jews have won 15-dozen Nobel Prizes while only three Nobel Prizes have been won by 1.4 billion Muslims (other than Peace Prizes).

Why are Jews so powerful? Stanley Mezor invented the first micro-processing chip. Leo Szilard developed the first nuclear chain reactor. Peter Schultz, optical fibre cable; Charles Adler, traffic lights; Benno Strauss, Stainless steel; Isador Kisee, sound movies; Emile Berliner, telephone microphone and Charles Ginsburg, videotape recorder.

Famous financiers in the business world who belong to Jewish faith include Ralph Lauren (Polo), Levis Strauss (Levi's Jeans), Howard Schultz (Starbuck's), Sergey Brin (Google), Michael Dell (Dell Computers), Larry Ellison (Oracle), Donna Karan (DKNY), Irv Robbins (Baskins & Robbins) and Bill Rosenberg (Dunkin Donuts).

Richard Levin, President of Yale University, is a Jew. So are Henry Kissinger (American secretary of state), Alan Greenspan (fed chairman under Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush), Joseph Lieberman, Madeleine Albright (American secretary of state), Casper Weinberger (American secretary of defence), Maxim Litvinov (USSR foreign Minister), David Marshal (Singapore's first chief minister), Issac Isaacs (governor-general of Australia), Benjamin Disraeli (British statesman and author), Yevgeny Primakov (Russian PM), Barry Goldwater, Jorge Sampaio (president of Portugal), John Deutsch (CIA director), Herb Gray (Canadian deputy PM), Pierre Mendes (French PM), Michael Howard (British home secretary), Bruno Kreisky (chancellor of Austria) and Robert Rubin (American secretary of treasury).

In the media, famous Jews include Wolf Blitzer (CNN), Barbara Walters (ABC News), Eugene Meyer (Washington Post), Henry Grunwald (editor-in-chief Time), Katherine Graham (publisher of The Washington Post), Joseph Lelyyeld (Executive editor, The New York Times), and Max Frankel (New York Times).

Can you name the most beneficent philanthropist in the history of the world? The name is George Soros, a Jew, who has so far donated a colossal $4 billion most of which has gone as aid to scientists and universities around the world. Second to George Soros is Walter Annenberg, another Jew, who has built a hundred libraries by donating an estimated $2 billion.

At the Olympics, Mark Spitz set a record of sorts by wining seven gold medals. Lenny Krayzelburg is a three-time Olympic gold medalist. Spitz, Krayzelburg and Boris Becker are all Jewish.

Did you know that Harrison Ford, George Burns, Tony Curtis, Charles Bronson, Sandra Bullock, Billy Crystal, Woody Allen, Paul Newman, Peter Sellers, Dustin Hoffman, Michael Douglas, Ben Kingsley, Kirk Douglas, Goldie Hawn, Cary Grant, William Shatner, Jerry Lewis and Peter Falk are all Jewish? As a matter of fact, Hollywood itself was founded by a Jew. Among directors and producers, Steven Spielberg, Mel Brooks, Oliver Stone, Aaron Spelling (Beverly Hills 90210), Neil Simon (The Odd Couple), Andrew Vaina (Rambo 1/2/3), Michael Man (Starsky and Hutch), Milos Forman (One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest), Douglas Fairbanks (The thief of Baghdad) and Ivan Reitman (Ghostbusters) are all Jewish.

To be certain, Washington is the capital that matters and in Washington the lobby that matters is The American Israel Public Affairs Committee, or AIPAC. Washington knows that if PM Ehud Olmert were to discover that the earth is flat, AIPAC will make the 109th Congress pass a resolution congratulating Olmert on his discovery.

William James Sidis, with an IQ of 250-300, is the brightest human who ever existed. Guess what faith did he belong to?

Question:

So, why are Jews so powerful?

Answer: Education.

***

Why are Muslims so powerless?

There are an estimated 1,476,233,470 Muslims on the face of the planet: one billion in Asia, 400 million in Africa, 44 million in Europe and six million in the Americas. Every fifth human being is a Muslim; for every single Hindu there are two Muslims, for every Buddhist there are two Muslims and for every Jew there are one hundred Muslims. Ever wondered why Muslims are so powerless?

Here is why: There are 57 member-countries of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC), and all of them put together have around 500 universities; one university for every three million Muslims. The United States has 5,758 universities and India has 8,407. In 2004, Shanghai Jiao Tong University compiled an 'Academic Ranking of World Universities', and intriguingly, not one university from Muslim-majority states was in the top-500.

As per data collected by the UNDP, literacy in the Christian world stands at nearly 90 per cent and 15 Christian-majority states have a literacy rate of 100 per cent. A Muslim-majority state, as a sharp contrast, has an average literacy rate of around 40 per cent and there is no Muslim-majority state with a literacy rate of 100 per cent. Some 98 per cent of the 'literates' in the Christian world had completed primary school, while less than 50 per cent of the 'literates' in the Muslim world did the same. Around 40 per cent of the 'literates' in the Christian world attended university while no more than two per cent of the 'literates' in the Muslim world did the same.

Muslim-majority countries have 230 scientists per one million Muslims. The US has 4,000 scientists per million and Japan has 5,000 per million. In the entire Arab world, the total number of full-time researchers is 35,000 and there are only 50 technicians per one million Arabs (in the Christian world there are up to 1,000 technicians per one million). Furthermore, the Muslim world spends 0.2 per cent of its GDP on research and development, while the Christian world spends around five per cent of its GDP.

Conclusion: The Muslim world lacks the capacity to produce knowledge.

Daily newspapers per 1,000 people and number of book titles per million are two indicators of whether knowledge is being diffused in a society. In Pakistan, there are 23 daily newspapers per 1,000 Pakistanis while the same ratio in Singapore is 360. In the UK, the number of book titles per million stands at 2,000 while the same in Egypt is 20.

Conclusion: The Muslim world is failing to diffuse knowledge.

Exports of high technology products as a percentage of total exports are an important indicator of knowledge application. Pakistan's exports of high technology products as a percentage of total exports stands at one per cent. The same for Saudi Arabia is 0.3 per cent; Kuwait, Morocco, and Algeria are all at 0.3 per cent while Singapore is at 58 per cent.

Conclusion: The Muslim world is failing to apply knowledge.

Why are Muslims powerless? Because we aren't producing knowledge. Why are Muslims powerless? Because we aren't diffusing knowledge. Why are Muslims powerless? Because we aren't applying knowledge. And, the future belongs to knowledge-based societies.

Interestingly, the combined annual GDP of 57 OIC-countries is under $2 trillion. America, just by herself, produces goods and services worth $12 trillion; China $8 trillion, Japan $3.8 trillion and Germany $2.4 trillion (purchasing power parity basis).

Oil rich Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait and Qatar collectively produce goods and services (mostly oil) worth $500 billion; Spain alone produces goods and services worth over $1 trillion, Catholic Poland $489 billion and Buddhist Thailand $545 billion (Muslim GDP as a percentage of world GDP is fast declining).

So, why are Muslims so powerless?

Answer: Lack of education.

[RockerDen]

Prosto khochu podmetit', chto evrei v prakticheski vsekh diasporakh videli obrazovanie, kak edinstvennoe sredstvo vyjivaniya vne Izrailya.

[lilbit]

potomu chto eta naciya tisyaheletiyami chto bi vijit' staralas' rabotat' golovoi, a ne palkoi i obrazovanie tut ne pri chem. Obrazovanie lish' rashirilo ih krugozor i pozvolilo dvigat'sya dal'she. Krome togo oni ne smeshivali religiyu i nauku, kak eto delaetsya v drugih religiyah. U vseh iudeev odna ideya na vseh, chego net u drugih.


Over the past 105 years, 14 million Jews have won 15-dozen Nobel Prizes while only three Nobel Prizes have been won by 1.4 billion Muslims (other than Peace Prizes).

Gde jili evrei? v gorodah!
Gde jili musul'mane? v sel'skoi mestnosti (v osnovnom)
Gde bol'she i luchshe dostup k obrazovaniyu?

[The Reaper]

Why are Jews so powerful?

Even though the article makes excellent points, when you read between the lines, it reeks of racism, simply based on the title and the content.

It shouldn't be about Jews, or Americans, or other "infidels" you care to list in comparison. It should have simply been about the problem of education overall in many Muslim countries.

I'm actually surprised there's no mention of the Global Zionist conspiracy. :rolleyes:

TR

[yuhakseng]

Bred vse eto! Nu naciya est naciya, chto tut osobennogo?
Chislo oligarhov, millionerov, presidentov -eto nechego neznachet.
Nu estli Obama stanet presidentom, on toje evrey, Lakshmi Metall toje evrey po hodu:lol:.
Chestno govorya uje razdrajaet stereotip,klishe svyazannoe s evreyami.
Ya vot odno ne poymu, dopustim dvoe pojenilis, ona-evreyka, a on-uzbek:D, i rebenok poluchaetsa evrey, kuda denitsa krov otca, tem bolee uzbeka?:lol:

[Africa]

Ya vot odno ne poymu, dopustim dvoe pojenilis, ona-evreyka, a on-uzbek:D, i rebenok poluchaetsa evrey, kuda denitsa krov otca, tem bolee uzbeka?:lol:
если ребёнка воспитает мудрая мать-еврейка, кровь отца тут будет не причём.

евреи умеют воспитывтаь своих детей.

[lilbit]

Muslim world lacking knowledge not because of lack of education but because of strict religious control of it. The only way to change this closed circle is to separate religion from education.

[Vector]

well jews (zionists) use power in the way that other nations won't dare to use, hence so recklessly 'powerful'. Muslims are too fearful to overthrew their corrupted leaders as a result US/UK (zionists,masons whatever) took their leaders' balls so hardly to keep as loyal political dolls.

[RockerDen]

Ya vot odno ne poymu, dopustim dvoe pojenilis, ona-evreyka, a on-uzbek:D, i rebenok poluchaetsa evrey, kuda denitsa krov otca, tem bolee uzbeka?:lol:
Smotrya, s kakoy storony ty smotrish.
Poskolku u evreev prinadlejnost ili neprinadlejnost k opredeleniyu "evrey" prokhodit cherez mat', a ne cherez otza, tak takoy rebyonok budet schitatsya evreem bud ego otetz chukchey, indeytzem ili kem by to ni bylo:D.

[Alesser]

Muslim world lacking knowledge not because of lack of education but because of strict religious control of it. The only way to change this closed circle is to separate religion from education.


I think its vice versa "history talks", from VII to XVIII centauries Islam basicly ruled vast part of Asia, Europe and Africa, and during these times majority of these countries were ruled under the Islamic law... Religion was applied to every matter in individuals life, and great number of Muslim scholars lived during these years... Many of them were mentioned in this forum several times, and they contributions towards world of knowledge are far too "GREAT"... When it comes to Islam, this religion encourages human being to seek and struggle for knowledge, and by knowledge I mean both wordly and religious knowledge...

I believe the main reason for present humilation, degradation and failure in many Muslim countires is not a religion, but people themselves...

[yuhakseng]

Smotrya, s kakoy storony ty smotrish.
Poskolku u evreev prinadlejnost ili neprinadlejnost k opredeleniyu "evrey" prokhodit cherez mat', a ne cherez otza, tak takoy rebyonok budet schitatsya evreem bud ego otetz chukchey, indeytzem ili kem by to ni bylo:D.

Sprashivayu, pochemu tak, i ty povtaryayesh to chto est.Da uje lyuboe s srednim obrazavaniem v mire znaet chto u evreev potomki ot materi poyavlyayutsa.
A tak kruto pridumali, podumaesh, dopustim jenshini evrei sostoyani imeet rebenka, budut imeet rebenka, devuchku, i eto devochka budet imeet s chukchoy dochku, vse poshlo, mojno podumat chto cherez 50 let, planeta zemlya mojno nazivat Izrailom?:lol:

[RockerDen]

A tak kruto pridumali, podumaesh, dopustim jenshini evrei sostoyani imeet rebenka, budut imeet rebenka, devuchku, i eto devochka budet imeet s chukchoy dochku, vse poshlo, mojno podumat chto cherez 50 let, planeta zemlya mojno nazivat Izrailom?:lol:
V printzipe, vse natzii mogut ploditsya i razmnojatsya - bylo by tolko jelanie. Takim je obrazom, esli uzbeki budut ploditsya tak i dal'she, to globus s kartoy Uzbekistana, chto na ploschadi Mustaqillik, priobretyot esche bol'shuyu znachimost;)

[Uyyonli]

It should have been "why muslims are powerless?"
If a country which has all the knowledge, technology, the best education, then that country is at the top of everything. It's not all about muslims either. First the mulim states have bad leaders, the second because of no knowledge coming through since 19th centuries people are radical, and they even refuse to accept any knowledge and education. This is why when Russia invaded Central Asia they wiped out all the smart people. Who ever was educated was sent to Siberia during the Soviet Era's of the Empire. Today our country is free but yet again IAK is chopping the hands of knowledge that people deserve to have... For what? for his own supremacy, So now u understand why other muslim countries that ran by dictators are powerless.

[Bukharan]

Who brought them to power?
Who's feeding them?
Who's not overthrowing these dictators?
Who's tolerating misery?

It should have been "why muslims are powerless?"
If a country which has all the knowledge, technology, the best education, then that country is at the top of everything. It's not all about muslims either. First the mulim states have bad leaders, the second because of no knowledge coming through since 19th centuries people are radical, and they even refuse to accept any knowledge and education. This is why when Russia invaded Central Asia they wiped out all the smart people. Who ever was educated was sent to Siberia during the Soviet Era's of the Empire. Today our country is free but yet again IAK is chopping the hands of knowledge that people deserve to have... For what? for his own supremacy, So now u understand why other muslim countries that ran by dictators are powerless.

[serendipity]

Mening fikrimcha faqat ta'lim yahudiylarni bunday jahon sahnasida kuchli millat bulishlarini asosiy sababi emas. Yahudiylarda shunday odatlar borki nafaqat musilmonlar, boshqa din vakillari, boshqa millatlar ham ulardan urganishga arziydi.
Umrimda bir yahudiy ikkinchisi haqida yomon gapirganini eshitganim yuq. Ming ahmoq bulsin, ular faqat yahshi taraflarini gapirishadi. Uzbeklarni(uzr uz millatim bilan taqqos etyotganim uchun, boshqa rus, armani millatlarda ham shu holni kuzatganman) olib qarasak esa giybatdan bushamaydi odamlar, bu yomon, unisi bundan yomon.

Yahudiylar bir-birlarini juda kuchli podderjka qilishadi, nafaqat qarindosh, balki yahudiy bulsa buldi. Hattoki chet elga ketgan yahudiylar Uzbekistonga kelganda, Uzbekiston buylab qaysi shaharga bormasin hamma yul harajatlarini elchihona tulaydi. USdagi yahudiylar ham shunday bir-birlarini podderjka qilishadi juda.

Yahudiylar bolalarini tarbiyalashda kup narsalarni urnak qilsa bulardi odamlar. Bazan Uzbeklar bollarini urishib-turtib, etibor bermasdan tarbiyasiga, "zabitiy" qilib tarbiyalashadi(uzr, lekin kup hollarda shunga guvoh bulganman, bu bilan hamma bir demoqchi emasman). Yahudiylar esa bolani kichkinaligidan odam sifatida qarab, fikrlash, qunyoqarashini rivojlantirishiga etibor berishadi.

Yana bir etiborga loyiq narsa, chindan ham yahudiylarni qora ish qilishlarini kam kursangiz kerak. Balki SSSR davrida oyoq kiyim tuzatish, gaz suvi sotish, taxi haydovchisi, sotuvchi sifatida kurgandirsiz, lekin shu ish joylarida boshqa oliy malumotli odamlar topgan ish haqidan 2 barobar pul topishgan desam nima deysiz?:) Bir ishni qulga olib daromad kelayotganini bilishsa, boshqa yahudiylarni ham jalb qilishadi.
Masalan Rossiya mediasini misol qilsak, qaysi kursatuvni olmang hammasida yahudiylar. KVN- boshlovchisidan toptib, jurida hammasi yahudiy, hamma reytingi eng baland kursatuvlar boshlvchilari, kuplab yozuvchilar. Chindan ham uddalab bilishadi ahir.

Yahudiylar uzi pul qilish mumkin bulgan, kup mehnat jismoniy mehnat talab qilmaydigan hech qanday bulmasin ishni olib ketaverishadi.
Bu bilan yahudiylarni yomon yo yahshi demoqchimasman, shunchaki yahshi taraflarini urnak sifatida olishga arziydi demoqchiman.

p.s. misol sifatida keltirilgan gaplar hammasi hayotiy voqealarga asoslangan.

[Bukharan]

Enough of history.

The story is about today.

I think its vice versa "history talks", from VII to XVIII centauries Islam basicly ruled vast part of Asia, Europe and Africa, and during these times majority of these countries were ruled under the Islamic law... Religion was applied to every matter in individuals life, and great number of Muslim scholars lived during these years... Many of them were mentioned in this forum several times, and they contributions towards world of knowledge are far too "GREAT"... When it comes to Islam, this religion encourages human being to seek and struggle for knowledge, and by knowledge I mean both wordly and religious knowledge...

I believe the main reason for present humilation, degradation and failure in many Muslim countires is not a religion, but people themselves...

[Uyyonli]

Who brought them to power?
Who's feeding them?
Who's not overthrowing these dictators?
Who's tolerating misery?
u and me buddy :D

[SAMARKANDI!]

I think its vice versa "history talks", from VII to XVIII centauries Islam basicly ruled vast part of Asia, Europe and Africa, and during these times majority of these countries were ruled under the Islamic law... Religion was applied to every matter in individuals life, and great number of Muslim scholars lived during these years... Many of them were mentioned in this forum several times, and they contributions towards world of knowledge are far too "GREAT"... When it comes to Islam, this religion encourages human being to seek and struggle for knowledge, and by knowledge I mean both wordly and religious knowledge...

I believe the main reason for present humilation, degradation and failure in many Muslim countires is not a religion, but people themselves...

Very true, it is our own fault as people, we can not blame Islam, as a perfect system, for that. On the contrary we should seek Islam for help, to bring us back to enlightenment, to greater power and knowledge. Reasonable examination of Islamic (Muslim) history and present can show that at the peak of Islamic power, science and education, social peace and development were unprecedented in excellence (evidenced by facts) and as people (Muslims) went weaker in Iyman i.e. stopped following Islam properly (religiously, socially, economically and politically), they got weaker, more divided, poorer and very vulnerable to outside influences (which always wanted us to stay down for many different reasons, including military, political and economic )

[Izida]

еврейи сильны потому как их решил наверное наградить сам бог за вековые угнетения со стороны всех других наций планеты. ;)

[SAMARKANDI!]

Enough of history.

The story is about today.

It is clear we are talking about today, he and I wanted to clarify that you can not blame Islam for that, since lilbit was claiming otherwise. And to prove that you have to look at past and show that the same criterias and variables of the past are not used at present which will help him and people like him to see why present is different from past and that Islam can not be blamed for people's failures ;)

Otherwise people like lilbit will pick on Islam rather than on Muslims.

[infolife]

Muslim world lacking knowledge not because of lack of education but because of strict religious control of it. The only way to change this closed circle is to separate religion from education.

Seek knowledge as far as China says the religion of Islam. Muslim world lacking knowledge not because of strict religious control of it, but because muslims lack major education on religious grounds. If only we studied Islam in depth, then maybe perphaps we would get the better understanding of how the outside world operates.

Re the article, the list of so many personalities who rule the western world- what is it for?all of those lists dont mean a thing to a muslim who is living in a village of South Africa or Brunei. Muslims have got their own heros, who, of course wouldnt be approved by western authorities and media.

Muslims have only been in US and UK for the last 300 years. And all of that time, there has never been a sincere interest towards Islam or Muslims. Why would west-based award ceremonies, and authorities would even consider a muslim for the prize or for the post whilst, Islam/muslims has entered subconsious of western people through orientalism(that depicts both islam and its followers alien and evil) or badly covered political events like Iranian revolution, Gulf War, 1993 WTC bombings, bombings of US embassies in Africa, Bosnian ethnic cleansing, Chechen uprising and 9/11 has marked the climax of it.

[lilbit]

Seek knowledge as far as China says the religion of Islam. Muslim world lacking knowledge not because of strict religious control of it, but because muslims lack major education on religious grounds. If only we studied Islam in depth, then maybe perphaps we would get the better understanding of how the outside world operates.
You are funny :D))))

In order to receive Noble Prize one need to have education in Islam???? You just proved that my point of view works. Muslim countries pressing scientist by these religious prejudice that's why education and it's results are insignificant.

Scientist it is not a praying guy who prays for invention!!! How one going to get Noble prize in CHemistry, Medicine, Physics if prevailing concept in his mind is religion???

[Jamshut&Revshan]

сильна та страна где религия и наука развиты неотъемлимо друг от друга.

[lilbit]

I think its vice versa "history talks", from VII to XVIII centauries Islam basicly ruled vast part of Asia, Europe and Africa, and during these times majority of these countries were ruled under the Islamic law... Religion was applied to every matter in individuals life, and great number of Muslim scholars lived during these years... Many of them were mentioned in this forum several times, and they contributions towards world of knowledge are far too "GREAT"... When it comes to Islam, this religion encourages human being to seek and struggle for knowledge, and by knowledge I mean both wordly and religious knowledge...

I believe the main reason for present humilation, degradation and failure in many Muslim countires is not a religion, but people themselves...
For sure we have to add here Ulugbek, who was killed by his son who got ideological help from high ranked muslims! Ibn Sina, who was persecuted by high ranked muslims all his life and so on. Do you know the reason of why???? Because the prevailing concept in their mind was to research, not to believe in God, though both of them believed in Allah. Of course their were no problem for math but physics, astronomy always got these poor attention.

[infolife]

You are even funnier:D

Who were the early scientists in chemistry, medicine, algebra, geometry if not muslims? 12th century muslims were even teaching greek philosophy to greeks, not just science to European world. And those muslims had the best knowledge of their religion as well where I beleive they drived their motivation. Then what happened?

Soon as muslims were laidback in regard to the practise of their religion they started being laidback in every other field.

Anyway, my point regarding this article.

US defence ministry, US state secretary, Olympics champion- what do all these mean to average man?
So far we are talking about US based posts and prizes, it is hardly unlikely that muslims outnumber any other religious members. I can probably do the statistics of atheists and I bet they are far too many than jews. so what? Why are atheists so much more powerful comparing to Jews?

Again, muslims have only been around west (except mediterreannean EU) for about 300 years. And all that time media has played a big role presenting negative image of Islam/muslims. And the article above is just another piece of biased information.

You are funny :D))))

In order to receive Noble Prize one need to have education in Islam???? You just proved that my point of view works. Muslim countries pressing scientist by these religious prejudice that's why education and it's results are insignificant.

Scientist it is not a praying guy who prays for invention!!! How one going to get Noble prize in CHemistry, Medicine, Physics if prevailing concept in his mind is religion???

[lilbit]

You are even funnier:D

Who were the early scientists in chemistry, medicine, algebra, geometry if not muslims? 12th century muslims were even teaching greek philosophy to greeks, not just science to European world. And those muslims had the best knowledge of their religion as well where I beleive they drived their motivation. Then what happened?

Soon as muslims were laidback in regard to the practise of their religion they started being laidback in every other field.

Anyway, my point regarding this article.

US defence ministry, US state secretary, Olympics champion- what do all these mean to average man?
So far we are talking about US based posts and prizes, it is hardly unlikely that muslims outnumber any other religious members. I can probably do the statistics of atheists and I bet they are far too many than jews. so what? Why are atheists so much more powerful comparing to Jews?

Again, muslims have only been around west (except mediterreannean EU) for about 300 years. And all that time media has played a big role presenting negative image of Islam/muslims. And the article above is just another piece of biased information.
well, at least you admitted that you are funny! :D))))

We are talking not about 1000 years ago, but about present time!!! Present time it's time you live in! OK?

In the article discussed issues of about 100-150 years roughly.

Give me the link, where it's said that muslim scientist taught greeks philosophy and science!!!

Muslims were laid back because of practice and implementation of their own religion. Emir of Bukhara burned the library in Bukhara (it contained books a.k.a knowledge that contradicted Islam), Abdu Latif (son of Ulugbek) burned the library in Samarkand. The same happened in Constantinopole. Or you admit, that it was done by cristians or jews????


All the facts!!!!!

[SAMARKANDI!]

You are funny :D))))

In order to receive Noble Prize one need to have education in Islam???? You just proved that my point of view works. Muslim countries pressing scientist by these religious prejudice that's why education and it's results are insignificant.

Scientist it is not a praying guy who prays for invention!!! How one going to get Noble prize in CHemistry, Medicine, Physics if prevailing concept in his mind is religion???

I think you ARE "funny". Because of lack of knowledge u r missing one BIG point in ur arguments which makes it indeed "funny" for those who have at least some objective knowledge of what Islam is. You are trying to make point with little or no knowledge of Islam which is like saying end of the world will come next week. Islam is not only religion. Unlike other religions of the world, the SYSTEM of Islam incorporates religion, politics, economics and science all together in one. When u make arguments against THE religion of Islam u r addressing the wrong subsystem of Islam, which addresses mostly spiritual aspects of life, you should be making them against the science of Islam or scientific Islam or political Islam, thats why it doesnt make sense to you, because u r looking at the different component of Islam. ;)

It is hard to understand for most people that Islam is not only religion. It’s because the most widely publicized religion of Christianity and some other major religions in the world address only religious aspects of life thus media and other medium such as printed materials talk mostly about religion as only spiritual engagement. This assumption is wrong in regards to Islam as I mentioned above. For several centuries already, those subsystems of Islam such as Islamic politics, Islamic economics has been oppressed and forcibly diminished (but not completely) because it caused great threat to the present corrupt capitalistic, socialistic and communistic systems (the same way, most capitalist countries thought of communism as threat). Because the development of science depends greatly on the economic and political prosperity of nations, most Muslim nations have been legging behind in such developments and one of the important causes of this is the clash of Islam with other systems which created chaos and disorientation in many Muslim countries in their political and economic lives. Islamic politics and economics have been under constant attack. Islam (religion, politics, economics) is perfectly capable of maintaining competitive and durable governing system, it’s proven with centuries of unprecedented development in human civilization during Islamic rule. And By Allah it will rule the world again.

[Frida]

For several centuries already, those subsystems of Islam such as Islamic politics, Islamic economics has been oppressed and forcibly diminished (but not completely) because it caused great threat to the present corrupt capitalistic, socialistic and communistic systems (the same way, most capitalist countries thought of communism as threat).

i do not really agree when people start blaming capitalism in the decline of Islamic subsystems. because so called Islamic Golden Age thrived between 8-13th centuries, whereas European Renessance started only in 14th century. Most importantly the first wave of European colonialism did not start all the way till 15th century. so the Islamic subsystems that you are referring to were already disrupted by muslims themselves. as some Islamic scholars describe it, the Islamic thought, philosophy, science started declining when the traditionalists won over intellectuals. Sometime around the period of Al-Ghazali, who basically blamed Al-Farobi and Ibn-Sino in many "sins".
just my two cents. :)

[Africa]

еврейи сильны потому как их решил наверное наградить сам бог за вековые угнетения со стороны всех других наций планеты. ;)
почему их, а не детей Африки?:pills:

[lilbit]

I think you ARE "funny". Because of lack of knowledge u r missing one BIG point in ur arguments which makes it indeed "funny" for those who have at least some objective knowledge of what Islam is. You are trying to make point with little or no knowledge of Islam which is like saying end of the world will come next week. Islam is not only religion. Unlike other religions of the world, the SYSTEM of Islam incorporates religion, politics, economics and science all together in one. When u make arguments against THE religion of Islam u r addressing the wrong subsystem of Islam, which addresses mostly spiritual aspects of life, you should be making them against the science of Islam or scientific Islam or political Islam, thats why it doesnt make sense to you, because u r looking at the different component of Islam. ;)

It is hard to understand for most people that Islam is not only religion. It’s because the most widely publicized religion of Christianity and some other major religions in the world address only religious aspects of life thus media and other medium such as printed materials talk mostly about religion as only spiritual engagement. This assumption is wrong in regards to Islam as I mentioned above. For several centuries already, those subsystems of Islam such as Islamic politics, Islamic economics has been oppressed and forcibly diminished (but not completely) because it caused great threat to the present corrupt capitalistic, socialistic and communistic systems (the same way, most capitalist countries thought of communism as threat). Because the development of science depends greatly on the economic and political prosperity of nations, most Muslim nations have been legging behind in such developments and one of the important causes of this is the clash of Islam with other systems which created chaos and disorientation in many Muslim countries in their political and economic lives. Islamic politics and economics have been under constant attack. Islam (religion, politics, economics) is perfectly capable of maintaining competitive and durable governing system, it’s proven with centuries of unprecedented development in human civilization during Islamic rule. And By Allah it will rule the world again.
In other way your post just a proof that all the islamic politics, educations and etc has failed! If there is few scientists who made a breakthrough in science and technology than the system producing them is nonproductive (comparing to others).
Noble Prize just one more measure of scientific, economic and political development of the country. It's position of weak to blame anybody else in it's own fault. Islamic subsistem of science will not produce breakthrough in science and technology if it will not be separated from religion. It's just a history of recent 500 years!!!

You messed up everything in your post.

[lilbit]

i do not really agree when people start blaming capitalism in the decline of Islamic subsystems. because so called Islamic Golden Age thrived between 8-13th centuries, whereas European Renessance started only in 14th century. Most importantly the first wave of European colonialism did not start all the way till 15th century. so the Islamic subsystems that you are referring to were already disrupted by muslims themselves. as some Islamic scholars describe it, the Islamic thought, philosophy, science started declining when the traditionalists won over intellectuals. Sometime around the period of Al-Ghazali, who basically blamed Al-Farobi and Ibn-Sino in many "sins".
just my two cents. :)
these two cents worth more than you think. :)

One more time: in order to succeed we have to separate religion from science!!!

[Sirena]

these two cents worth more than you think. :)

One more time: in order to succeed we have to separate religion from science!!!
Infolife wanted to say (I guess) if those muslim people at least learned Islam properly, (not just pray 5 times a day like eating food or going to the toilet 5 times a day as because this is their duty, believe me there are such people) they wouldnt be so lets say "powerless" I heard many times when they said "its enough to be a muslim" and education tought in schools and universities is a matter of secondary importance.

[infolife]

Well, no links. But I can certainly recommend you two books

1. Lost History: Enduring Legasy of Muslim scientists, thinkers and artists by Michael Morgan
2. What Islam did for us: Understanding Islam's contribution to western civilization by Tim Wallace-Murphy

I chose non-muslim written source, although there are a lot more books written by muslims, like some you might not want to beleive in what muslims write about their own history

Now, give me links when and how the libraries you mentioned were burned? who ordered to burn them and what for?

well, at least you admitted that you are funny! :D))))

We are talking not about 1000 years ago, but about present time!!! Present time it's time you live in! OK?

In the article discussed issues of about 100-150 years roughly.

Give me the link, where it's said that muslim scientist taught greeks philosophy and science!!!

Muslims were laid back because of practice and implementation of their own religion. Emir of Bukhara burned the library in Bukhara (it contained books a.k.a knowledge that contradicted Islam), Abdu Latif (son of Ulugbek) burned the library in Samarkand. The same happened in Constantinopole. Or you admit, that it was done by cristians or jews????


All the facts!!!!!

Again, so many contradictions in your post. 12th century muslims were scientists in every field and yet they practised Islam to the best, better than the later generations. Emir of Buhara, Abdullatif lived in the 15th century- and Islam wasnt not fully at the centre of their governance, although they did some stuff in the name of Islam. And some of your examples are such-someone used Islam against science and so Islam must be against science. Complete nonsense
Now, when people want to stay in power for their own self-interest, they use religion, politics, anything they can think of to manipulate others. When Bush wanted to invade Iraq, he never admitted he wanted to reserve Iraq's oil for his own purposes, but he used the myth of WMD and tales of Iraqi links with Al-Qaeda. In 15th century, it was very much religion used again and again to get rid of someone/something. If a person uses Islam to push his own agenda forward, by no means it means Islam is faulty but rather that person is faulty.

Surely, you havent read a single book in the history of Islam and all what you say is shallow statements that might have heard here and there

[infolife]

i do not really agree when people start blaming capitalism in the decline of Islamic subsystems. because so called Islamic Golden Age thrived between 8-13th centuries, whereas European Renessance started only in 14th century. Most importantly the first wave of European colonialism did not start all the way till 15th century. so the Islamic subsystems that you are referring to were already disrupted by muslims themselves. as some Islamic scholars describe it, the Islamic thought, philosophy, science started declining when the traditionalists won over intellectuals. Sometime around the period of Al-Ghazali, who basically blamed Al-Farobi and Ibn-Sino in many "sins".
just my two cents. :)

That's exactly what you read in books written by orientalists, so called Islamic experts of the west. Not a single muslim historian ever blamed capitalism for the decline of Islamic science. (There are many factors for the decline and I wont go into that) But, people please, if you are sincerely interested, why dont you pick up a book that is thoroughly solid and true in its use of Islam or muslims

[lilbit]

Well, no links. But I can certainly recommend you two books

1. Lost History: Enduring Legasy of Muslim scientists, thinkers and artists by Michael Morgan
2. What Islam did for us: Understanding Islam's contribution to western civilization by Tim Wallace-Murphy

I chose non-muslim written source, although there are a lot more books written by muslims, like some you might not want to beleive in what muslims write about their own history

Now, give me links when and how the libraries you mentioned were burned? who ordered to burn them and what for?



Again, so many contradictions in your post. 12th century muslims were scientists in every field and yet they practised Islam to the best, better than the later generations. Emir of Buhara, Abdullatif lived in the 15th century- and Islam wasnt not fully at the centre of their governance, although they did some stuff in the name of Islam. And some of your examples are such-someone used Islam against science and so Islam must be against science. Complete nonsense
Now, when people want to stay in power for their own self-interest, they use religion, politics, anything they can think of to manipulate others. When Bush wanted to invade Iraq, he never admitted he wanted to reserve Iraq's oil for his own purposes, but he used the myth of WMD and tales of Iraqi links with Al-Qaeda. In 15th century, it was very much religion used again and again to get rid of someone/something. If a person uses Islam to push his own agenda forward, by no means it means Islam is faulty but rather that person is faulty.

Surely, you havent read a single book in the history of Islam and all what you say is shallow statements that might have heard here and there
Net vremeni iskat' knigi. Prochto to chto est' v Internete.
Историки и современники сообщают, что библиотека была чрезвычайно богатой. Основу ее фонда составили книги, привезённые Тимуром из завоеванных им стран - “…собрав все армянские и персидские книги, сколько мог найти, послал их в Самарканд и поместил там в одной башне. Под страхом строжайшего наказания запретил он выносить книги из башни, а желающим читать их разрешал заниматься в башне”.
http://www.e-samarkand.narod.ru/Ulugbek_library.htm

Kasatel'no biblioteki v Buhare, to o nei mojno naiti v knigah-biografiyah ibn Sino.

Some names from the first book you advised me to read:
Ibn Sino, Omar Khayyam there is no reason to reiterate how both of them were persecuted making them enimies of religion.

Regarding lost legacy: why it was lost? {I'll tell you why: it was just time to time when in muslim wolrd appeared centers of science and education and those centers were not stable (Kairo, Bukhara, Samarkand, Herat etc). They(centers) were the first target for invaders that mostly were from the same muslim world and were destryed by them. BTW Most of the scientist in first book you advised lived in 10-11 century. }
What happened to them?
What happened to their schools?
Libraries? etc???

For sure all of them made breakthrough, but why nobody followed their research and there is a very big gap in inventions and research. Somebody restricted access to knowledge they generated? Explain this!

Everything in muslim world countries depends on ruler! Man in power decides what's good for the country. If King supports science - there is development. As soon as King leaves his power to religion - . . . .

[Aziz]

Everything in muslim world countries depends on ruler! Man in power decides what's good for the country. If King supports science - there is development. As soon as King leaves his power to religion - . . . .

I agree with you on the first part...but blaming Islam for our faults is something that needs evidence. Please present us with some of what you see wrong with the religion of Islam that contradicts or does not support science. Make sure you do not mix religion with people :).

[lilbit]

I agree with you on the first part...but blaming Islam for our faults is something that needs evidence. Please present us with some of what you see wrong with the religion of Islam that contradicts or does not support science. Make sure you do not mix religion with people :).
Dorogoi, I am talking not about Islam but about religion and people who represent it. Islam encourages pursuit of knowledge. But knowledge always has a threat to some religious people (BTW not only in Islam, but also in Christianity{Inquisition}) who fear to loose their power. That's a main reason of why in medieval ages so much scientist were persecuted mostly by religion not by politics or economics!!! That's a main reason why Ulugbek was killed by his son! ;)

People that make all that mess lead by ideas a.k.a religion. :)

[Bukharan]

u and me buddy :D

Precisely;)
It is easy to blame others for our failures, but it is nothing but absurd.

Taking distance from superstitions, bravely trying new ways of eixtence, pursueing knowledge and getting rid of garbage is the only way forward.

[Bukharan]

12th century muslims were scientists in every field and yet they practised Islam to the best, better than the later generations.

You will be amazed if you could read poems and writings by Avicenna, Omar Khayyam and other thinkers of, say, the Islamic renaissance.

Avicenna says:

Dar dahr chu man yakevu on ham kofar
Pas dar hama dahr yak musalmon nabuvad.

That means:

There is just one person like me in the world, yet am I known as an infidel, hence no Muslim exists in the world.

Religious zealots were too tough on him and his habit to break all taboos and superstitious traditions.

Most of Omar Khayyam's rubais were considered heretical by Muslim clergy. He says:

Yo Rab, tu gilam sirishtai, man chi kunam?
Pashmu qasabam tu rishtai, man chi kunam?
Har neku bade ki az man oyad ba vujud
Tu bar sari man navishtai, man chi kunam?

That means: Oh God, you have created me as I am, so what can I do? What can I do when my nature has been embedded in me by you? What can I change when my fate is written on my forehead by you?

There are many more of this kind of brave statements and questions that could never be uttered by contemporary thinkers in the Muslim world without being threatened or persecuted by zealots. Fanaticism is a serious barrier for any sort of progress. With fanatics any nation will be stuck in the past with no perspective.

[Oyaji]

If the saying "One isn't born a Jew, one becomes a Jew" (Евреями не рождаются, Евреями становятся) is true, then there must be much more than 14 million jews in the 6 billion world :D

[Alesser]

For sure we have to add here Ulugbek, who was killed by his son who got ideological help from high ranked muslims! Ibn Sina, who was persecuted by high ranked muslims all his life and so on. Do you know the reason of why???? Because the prevailing concept in their mind was to research, not to believe in God, though both of them believed in Allah. Of course their were no problem for math but physics, astronomy always got these poor attention.

Sorry man, but you are definitely giving a wrong examples here... Peoples' greed for power and wealth has nothing to do with Islam and its attitude towards knowledge... We can talk about this on and on, but there is no way that we can deny what Islamic scholars have done for modern science in general... There are too much examples for me to mention each one of them in here plus many of them have been mentioned in several other threads, but if you really wanna know just go ahead and google it...

[Bukharan]

Sorry man, but you are definitely giving a wrong examples here... Peoples' greed for power and wealth has nothing to do with Islam and its attitude towards knowledge... We can talk about this on and on, but there is no way that we can deny what Islamic scholars have done for modern science in general... There are too much examples for me to mention each one of them in here plus many of them have been mentioned in several other threads, but if you really wanna know just go ahead and google it...

Yes, it was in the past.

Once again, dudes. Try to concentrate on the present. If you want to talk about the past I will open a new thread for you and tell you how enormously hard it was for our scholars to bypass religious fanaticism in their researches. However, nowadays it seems fanaticism has increased manyfold instead of cooling down and it's even more difficult to question dogmas now than in Avicenna's time.

[Frida]

That's exactly what you read in books written by orientalists, so called Islamic experts of the west. Not a single muslim historian ever blamed capitalism for the decline of Islamic science. (There are many factors for the decline and I wont go into that) But, people please, if you are sincerely interested, why dont you pick up a book that is thoroughly solid and true in its use of Islam or muslims

if you take a look at my previous post, i was stating that between growth of Europe and the decline of Islamic Golden age there were almost 2 centuries. So no need to blame all the unfortunes to Europe, capitalism, etc. nothing about books of Islamic experts. no need for those books, these are just bare facts.

[Alesser]

Yes, it was in the past.

Once again, dudes. Try to concentrate on the present. If you want to talk about the past I will open a new thread for you and tell you how enormously hard it was for our scholars to bypass religious fanaticism in their researches. However, nowadays it seems fanaticism has increased manyfold instead of cooling down and it's even more difficult to question dogmas now than in Avicenna's time.

P.S. Pay attention man, we are talking about the present just comparing it to the past... Some of us looking at the past just to bring some good examples for the present... Looking at the past you learn from your mistakes or realize your current mistakes...

O'zbekchasiga "Boshidan utkazgan tabib" deyishadiku!

[Frida]

Yes, it was in the past.

Once again, dudes. Try to concentrate on the present. If you want to talk about the past I will open a new thread for you and tell you how enormously hard it was for our scholars to bypass religious fanaticism in their researches. However, nowadays it seems fanaticism has increased manyfold instead of cooling down and it's even more difficult to question dogmas now than in Avicenna's time.

i've read sometime ago that majority of these scholars eventually became ismailites. since, in this sect of Islam they were not prosecuted for their thoughts. well, the idea is that they were not openly saying that they were ismailiy, but their thought and beliefs coincided with teachings of those who consider themselves ismaili.

i wonder how true is that.

[Bukharan]

i've read sometime ago that majority of these scholars eventually became ismailites. since, in this sect of Islam they were not prosecuted for their thoughts. well, the idea is that they were not openly saying that they were ismailiy, but their thought and beliefs coincided with teachings of those who consider themselves ismaili.

i wonder how true is that.

Most of them were accused of belonging to unconventional sects of Islam, including Ismailism. Rudaki was associated with zandiqs (derives from Zand - a Zoroastrian book) and subsequently blinded. Avicenna's father was Ismaili. Nasir Khosrow was amongst the Peers of Ismailis and still highly revered by Ismailis. Ferdowsi was accused of belonging to Zoroastrian faith and his body was not allowed into a Muslim cemetery. His daughter buried him in his garden. Omar Khayyam is thought to have been an Ismaili too, but there is no firm evidence of it. Khayyam was rather a gnostic keen to question all religious dogmas. Rumi found refuge in mysticism.

[SAMARKANDI!]

i do not really agree when people start blaming capitalism in the decline of Islamic subsystems. because so called Islamic Golden Age thrived between 8-13th centuries, whereas European Renessance started only in 14th century. Most importantly the first wave of European colonialism did not start all the way till 15th century. so the Islamic subsystems that you are referring to were already disrupted by muslims themselves. as some Islamic scholars describe it, the Islamic thought, philosophy, science started declining when the traditionalists won over intellectuals. Sometime around the period of Al-Ghazali, who basically blamed Al-Farobi and Ibn-Sino in many "sins".
just my two cents. :)

I dont disagree, u have some logic there, but I would not say that Islam was the cause of collapse of Islam, its just illogical. The reason I agree with u is that many Muslims went weak in their beliefs and their practices, as u said they blamed many Muslim scientist in blasphemy and stuff, and there are many other examples. And this is exactly what I was talking about that It is MUSLIMS' fault, NOT Islam's. Muslims' weakness in following proper ways in Islam brought us into such stagnation. I have been saying this from the beginning, because Islam has proven itself as u and I have mentioned that It IS capable of governing and developing nations ("Islamic Golden Age"), it is people who couldnt keep up. Also I have to mention one thing before, as u said the Europeans' influence, that there was one BIG factor that played major role in the destruction of Islamic civilization, it was mongols. Before most of the mongols converted into Islam and settled in the Islamic lands, they have destroyed and killed major stakeholders of Islam i.e. its education system, its cities, its educated people, infrastructure and many other things.The effect of their invasion was like a steep downward slop on the graph of the Islamic civilization. And the aftermath was very devastating. And this is where I would say your point comes in, Muslims went weak and "traditional" in a sense that they started combining cultures, their own traditions, slowing down in science and education. After such blow and after effects, Muslims couldnt recover for long time and during that time Europeans started playing their games around Muslim nations.

My whole point is that Islam is a perfect system, we Muslims were/are being incompetent.

[RockerDen]

So now u understand why other muslim countries that ran by dictators are powerless.
Almost every country ruled by dictator is powerless, because the people are weakened;)

Yahudiylar bir-birlarini juda kuchli podderjka qilishadi, nafaqat qarindosh, balki yahudiy bulsa buldi. Hattoki chet elga ketgan yahudiylar Uzbekistonga kelganda, Uzbekiston buylab qaysi shaharga bormasin hamma yul harajatlarini elchihona tulaydi. USdagi yahudiylar ham shunday bir-birlarini podderjka qilishadi juda.
Yana bir etiborga loyiq narsa, chindan ham yahudiylarni qora ish qilishlarini kam kursangiz kerak.
1) Barcha millat kamchiliklar diasporada biri birga yordam beradilar - nofaqat yahudiylar (Olmoniyadagi turklar, Avstraliyadagi serblar va yunonlar va hokazo o'zlarga podderjka qiladilar)
2) Ha, to'g'ri deyding. Yahudiylar o'zlarni hurmat qiladilar - ular uchun qora ishlar bu ishlar emas;)
еврейи сильны потому как их решил наверное наградить сам бог за вековые угнетения со стороны всех других наций планеты. ;)
Slishkom teologicheskoe obyasnenie

[SeminoleX]

Interesting thread.

Why Jews are so powerful?

The answer is: They are hardworking, united and had their goal to govern this world 100 years ago, specifilally Zionists, which is logical.

So far "everybody" supports zionism, if you know what I mean. Just google it.

On the other hand, You dont have to be in any religion or decsent and still become powerful, doesn't necessarily have to be a Jew, just
aim high and bust your *** off to achieve your goal, stand out, have a good jew-network that backs you like jew does.

[lilbit]

ha, one more reason why Jews so powerful: It takes them few seconds to figure out what language, culture etc. to learn in order to get an access to the knowledge, money, power, anything else they need. At the same time they keep their knowledge about their superiority inside themselves!

JMHO

[RockerDen]

If the saying "One isn't born a Jew, one becomes a Jew" (Евреями не рождаются, Евреями становятся) is true, then there must be much more than 14 million jews in the 6 billion world :D
V chyom samiy prikol - chto evrei - eto edinstvennaya natziya, s kotoroy i rojdayutsya i stanovyatsya. I, kstati, soglasno Galakhe (svod evreyskikh zakonov), evrey ostayotsya evreem na vsyu jizn - daje esli menyaet religiyu;)
[quote=Alesser;1015852]P.S. Pay attention man, we are talking about the present just comparing it to the past... [quote]
But still, there are some points that are similar.;)

[lilbit]

V chyom samiy prikol - chto evrei - eto edinstvennaya natziya, s kotoroy i rojdayutsya i stanovyatsya. I, kstati, soglasno Galakhe (svod evreyskikh zakonov), evrey ostayotsya evreem na vsyu jizn - daje esli menyaet religiyu;)

But still, there are some points that are similar.;)rojdayutsya, no ne stanovyatsya!!! Esli mat' ne evreika, to vse mozgi vi.... Odin iz moih druzei stolknulsya s etim idiotizmom. A vot po povodu evrei ostaetsya evreem - daje smeniv religiyu - ne nado bilo pisat' svod zakonov. Ne stanet je evrei kitaicem smeniv religiyu na budizm? :D))))

Mojet iudei ostaetsya iudeem daje esli smenil religiyu???

[RockerDen]

[quote=RockerDen;1016319]V chyom samiy prikol - chto evrei - eto edinstvennaya natziya, s kotoroy i rojdayutsya i stanovyatsya. I, kstati, soglasno Galakhe (svod evreyskikh zakonov), evrey ostayotsya evreem na vsyu jizn - daje esli menyaet religiyu;)
[quote=Alesser;1015852]P.S. Pay attention man, we are talking about the present just comparing it to the past... rojdayutsya, no ne stanovyatsya!!! Esli mat' ne evreika, to vse mozgi vi.... Odin iz moih druzei stolknulsya s etim idiotizmom. A vot po povodu evrei ostaetsya evreem - daje smeniv religiyu - ne nado bilo pisat' svod zakonov. Ne stanet je evrei kitaicem smeniv religiyu na budizm? :D))))

Mojet iudei ostaetsya iudeem daje esli smenil religiyu???
Lil, ne smeshi - buddizm - n religiya ne tolko kitaytzev, tak je kak i islam - ne tolko arabov i khristianstvo - ne tolko, skajem nemtzev.A vot iudaizm - religiya evreev da i tolko;) Poetomu, prinyav iudaizm, mojno stat' evreem;)

[lilbit]

[quote=lilbit;1016328][quote=RockerDen;1016319]V chyom samiy prikol - chto evrei - eto edinstvennaya natziya, s kotoroy i rojdayutsya i stanovyatsya. I, kstati, soglasno Galakhe (svod evreyskikh zakonov), evrey ostayotsya evreem na vsyu jizn - daje esli menyaet religiyu;)

Lil, ne smeshi - buddizm - n religiya ne tolko kitaytzev, tak je kak i islam - ne tolko arabov i khristianstvo - ne tolko, skajem nemtzev.A vot iudaizm - religiya evreev da i tolko;) Poetomu, prinyav iudaizm, mojno stat' evreem;)
blin, universal'naya religiya. odin raz prinyal, a potom mojesh' gde ugodno otlichitsya :D))))

[Black]

For sure we have to add here Ulugbek, who was killed by his son who got ideological help from high ranked muslims! Ibn Sina, who was persecuted by high ranked muslims all his life and so on. Do you know the reason of why???? Because the prevailing concept in their mind was to research, not to believe in God, though both of them believed in Allah. Of course their were no problem for math but physics, astronomy always got these poor attention.

Don't talk that bull crap any more. This crap, that Ulug'bek's death was supported by muslims scholars is a product of Soviet atheist ideological maschine. Surely, as we know that Ulugbek was killed by the order of his son Abdulatif. But, note that he was not killed by Abdulatif himself, but his son ordered to kill him (Ulugbek). But, the religious scholar(s) whom the Soviet atheist historians accuse supporting this action, for you surprise, did not support this act (killing Ulugbek). Surely, this is how atheist and other anti-Islamic idealogies brainwash people like you Lilbit.
Besides that, Abdulatif himself was not an example of muslim personality. Some sources say he used to drink and because of this lost control over himself. So, dear our Great Historian Lilbit, you presenting this false story of discrediting Islamic scholars as a fakt? You better read some books before posting.

And few cents about Ibn Sina. As far as I know, the Religious Scholars of his time were not agree with him or were against him not because of his scientific researches, but for his religious thoughts, which were wrong. What you wanted them (scholars) to do? Should not they oppose him because of his wrong ideas? He was spreading his ideas (by wrinting books) to other people, which could led many of them went astray. Basicly, he was doing completly opposite what you are talking - he was practising religion and science together.
From what I read and heard, I can say, Ibn Sina was mainly persecuted because of his unwillingness of serving Ghaznavi Turk King (Mahmud) Ghaznavi. Let me remind you some history. Ibn Sina, together with his teacher Ar Roziy (some claim that the author of the book "Tib Qonunlari" is not Ibn Sino as it is said today, but his teacher Ar Roziy. Ibn Sino just copied it (for his teacher) and thus became "his" book. But this is just claims), Beruniy and other famous muslim scholars of that time worked and lived in the Academy of Horezmian king Ma'mun (have you ever heard "Ma'mun Akademiyasi"?). When Ghaznavi King (Mahmud???) Ghaznavi occupies Horazm and destroys the Academy, he captured and took some of the scholars with himself to the capital of his Kingdom, Ghazni. But, on their way, Ibn Sino was able to run away from him (unlike Beruniy who worked in lived ub the palace of Ghazanavi king for many years). Thus, he was forced to live in persecution. It is like running from American Jail and live in persecution in Kanada, fearing that one day CIA will find you.
Anyways, whatever context have the biography of these scholars - Ulugbek and Ibn Sino, both of them were doing the complete opposite of what Lilbit is offering here. Both of them joined Religion and Science together. Lilbit is now looks like a Liberal Guy giving an example of skinheads or Hitler to prove his points. If we look deeper and wider, all your arguments works
against you. For example, one of the the prevailing concepts of the mind of Ibn Sina was God's creation of Earth, and that was one of the main concepts in his mind.

BUT, the most important point is that, regardless whoever killed Ulugbek and persecuted Ibn Sino, those who killed them (religious scholars, or king's son or etc) can not be presented as Islam. They were just muslims not Islam.

[lilbit]

Black, you are always considering opposing point of view as already brainwashed and yours as really true.
"BUT, the most important point is that, regardless whoever killed Ulugbek and persecuted Ibn Sino, those who killed them (religious scholars, or king's son or etc) can not be presented as Islam. They were just muslims not Islam."(c) Black

Right!!! They were muslims!!! You've just admitted it! And they did their job!

You may go as wide as you want in analyzing my arguments. It's history, man, and it's not me who wrote it. And reality is there are more scientists-Jews than Muslims though nobody restricted an access to that knowledge!!!

Try to argue that argument if you are so smart and have all the information that's not being brainwashed!

[Black]

Black, you are always considering opposing point of view as already brainwashed and yours as really true.
"BUT, the most important point is that, regardless whoever killed Ulugbek and persecuted Ibn Sino, those who killed them (religious scholars, or king's son or etc) can not be presented as Islam. They were just muslims not Islam."(c) Black

Right!!! They were muslims!!! You've just admitted it! And they did their job!

You may go as wide as you want in analyzing my arguments. It's history, man, and it's not me who wrote it. And reality is there are more scientists-Jews than Muslims though nobody restricted an access to that knowledge!!!

Try to argue that argument if you are so smart and have all the information that's not being brainwashed!

Why should I argue this argument? I do not care how many Jew-scientists around here. The thing I care is, how the Muslims are following Islam. If Muslims start following Islam correctly, everything will be back on track, the number of Muslim scientists, the development level of Muslim countries rise, the Unity among Muslim nations strengthns and etc. Until that, Muslims will stay in deep s**t.
All the arguments about seperating religion from politics, religion from science and etc., are nonsense, because the history proved the opposite of this. Many users mentioned this fact before, which you and Frida deny to accept. I repeat it once more for you. When Muslim world followed strictly Islam, they were the best of the humans, and when they started loosening their grisp of Islam, they started to fall behind others. The History Proved it. As Umar ibn Hattab r.a. told: "Islam made us Aziz (Powerful/Respected), if we turn away from it we will be humiliated". And we are humiliated today, because we do not follow Islam correctly. Note, that I am not talking about other religions and the followers of those religions. All other religions cover only spiritual side of the life, they have almost no practical meaning, out of church/shrine/praying house they don't function. But Islam is the way of life, which includes all and every aspect of the life.

Another Historical fact is that, so far Albania was most atheist country in the Earth, more than that of CCCP (which was another atheistic country). And where is these countries, where religion was seperated from everything? You know in what hole they are now.

In short, I do not care how many Jewish scientists around here. Because quantity does not mean anything or does not mean much. Irak had one of the most scients per head, they were one of the leading in the world. And we see their "development" now. For Muslims, Islam is the right algorithm of achieving anything, because, whether you accept it or not, we are programmed to work correctly on with this algorithm.

[lilbit]

Black, take a look at the subject of the thread!!!!!!! Blaaaack, read subject first, discussion is in second order. We can try other way, but anyway you have to read first post, in particular last two sentences of it.

P.S. position of humiliated group made me laugh

[Black]

Lilbit, read the first post of the thread, read it till the end. Especially, read the last question and answer in bold.

[Delf]

In a society where knowledge is often considered kuffar and punishable by death and where education starts with reading Quran and ends with memorizing it, it is hard to see any progress.

Any society dominated by superstition where questioning dogmas is unwelcome will rot in terms of scientific progress. History itself is an example of this.

Scientific progress is based on questioning established views and proposing bold new explanations for known phenomena. Both questioning (kuffar) and proposing new ideas (bidat) are extremely unwelcome in societies dominated by Islam.

Religious doctrine (din), on the other hand, is based on adherence (iyman, mumin) to to established dogmas (Quran, Sharia, Hadis) no matter how outdated and ridiculous they are.

You want progress? Secularize, just like Europe did when it left Age of Faith and entered Age of Reason. Progress is based on reason, not faith.

Delf.

[AbdurRahman]

In a society where knowledge is often considered kuffar and punishable by death and where education starts with reading Quran and ends with memorizing it, it is hard to see any progress.

Any society dominated by superstition where questioning dogmas is unwelcome will rot in terms of scientific progress. History itself is an example of this.

Scientific progress is based on questioning established views and proposing bold new explanations for known phenomena. Both questioning (kuffar) and proposing new ideas (bidat) are extremely unwelcome in societies dominated by Islam.

Religious doctrine, on the other hand, is based on adherence to to established dogmas no matter how outdated and ridiculous they are.

You want progress? Secularize, just like Europe did when it left Age of Faith and entered Age of Reason. Progress is based on reason, not faith.

Delf.


Before you discuss issue of someone is being powerful or not. It is best to define what does powerfulness actually mean.

If you mean that muslims lack in science and technology that means you watch TV a lot: )) . Muslims are considered normally humble and they dont like to boast about their power in terms of science and technology. It is best that you try to find yourself Muslim scientist , programmer or like and you will find many. So you will find a good muslim scientist and a good non muslim scientist. a good muslim programmer and a good non muslim programmer.

If you mean by power that jews have more weapons, more money etc... then at this time yes this might be true. question is SO WHAT? does it prove anything? Answer is NO.

If you honoustly and objectively consider the society in West and compare it with the society in Islamic lands, you will see the clear difference.

Money, position, weapon, new technology will not always bring true happiness to you unless your social life is in order.

My service manager went for holyday to Turkey and when he came back I asked him "How is life in Turkey?". He replied that life there is totally different and it is not just drinking n dancing like in here. Service Manager is from west himself also.

The most important factor for human being is to be happy and feel peace and safety in the heart. and believe me, you can deny existence of The Creator as much as you want by using many ways just to "make" yourself satisfied with those "proofs" , your heart will never ever be in peace and safety, even if you possess big amount of money or even if you have big position.

It is time for mankind to recognize their true nature and go back to nature and live naturally.

Br,

Abdurrahman.

[Delf]

The backwardness of Muslim world in science and technology is readily proved by measuring technological and scientific advances made. Just look up statistics on scientific journal publications, funding for science and technology and you will see a picture very different from what you imagine.

For your reference: the number of books translated in Arab World from the times of establishment of Islam is less than the number of books translated in Spain in one year. (http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_60/iss_8/49_1.shtml)

If you honestly analyze why Muslim world is backwards and undeveloped, you will see that Islam has been major impediment of progress. Same is true for West - Christianity was a major impediment of progress until it was driven out of government affairs into private lives. The progress can only start when Muslim clergy lose their power. That means rejecting Sharia and reducing the role of religion in government affairs.

You said that "you can deny existence of The Creator as much as you want by using many ways just to "make" yourself satisfied with those "proofs"". It is quite the contrary: I do not have faith into superstitions (be that God, Allah, Zeuz, Ahuramazda, jinns, angels, demons, domovoi, etc) which not only have no proof, but moreover, they are deliberately constructed not to be falsifiable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability).

As when it comes to peace and safety: you must be extremely brainwashed to think that being a slave of an imaginary entity is the only way to be happy.


Delf.

[Bukharan]

Progress is based on reason, not faith.

Delf.

Well said. People in our lands must realize that Faith is a totally personal issue, whereas Reason should be collective to achieve any societal goal. Thus, the stress should be made upon the Reason and the Faith must be left in our personal worlds.

[The Reaper]

As when it comes to peace and safety: you must be extremely brainwashed to think that being a slave of an imaginary entity is the only way to be happy.


"It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept".

That quote by Bill Watterson pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with organized religion.

TR

[nemets]

As when it comes to peace and safety: you must be extremely brainwashed to think that being a slave of an imaginary entity is the only way to be happy.


Delf.

citation of the day.

[nemets]

The main problem of religion driven societies is the lack of criticism. The criticism in all forms is not welcomed and is even dangerous. The same problem is in authoritarian states.

I want to show some parallels.
Simple example from my job. I work in error handling and testing department of big technological company. Every product developed by us is being tested thousand times. It is a distructive process. No developer is involved here because he can't criticise and destroy his product. Except the products even all steps in development prozess workflow is being always measured, measured and again measured. This is the only way to find weak areas in all prozesses. We spend almost 35% of develeplment budget for testing and error handling and that is why our company is Nr.1 in the world in its segment.

The religious societies are not able to improve themself because no one in these societies can measure all activities with the target to find problem areas.

"You can't improve what you can't measure." (c) (someone said, I don't remember who)

[lilbit]

nemets, I would say not "criticism", but "different point of view" (not always criticizing religion) not supported by officials (religion, government, etc). It was right examples here as Islam, Christianity, Communism ...

"kto ne s nami, tot protiv nas". That's true for ideas!

[nemets]

nemets, I would say not "criticism", but "different point of view" (not always criticizing religion) not supported by officials (religion, government, etc). It was right examples here as Islam, Christianity, Communism ...

"kto ne s nami, tot protiv nas". That's true for ideas!

My point was not the criticism of Islam as itself but the criticism of govermental management in islamic countries. And here is the problem, because the "management" is represented by religious clerics.

[SAMARKANDI!]

The main problem of religion driven societies is the lack of criticism. The criticism in all forms is not welcomed and is even dangerous. The same problem is in authoritarian states.

I want to show some parallels.
Simple example from my job. I work in error handling and testing department of big technological company. Every product developed by us is being tested thousand times. It is a distructive process. No developer is involved here because he can't criticise and destroy his product. Except the products even all steps in development prozess workflow is being always measured, measured and again measured. This is the only way to find weak areas in all prozesses. We spend almost 35% of develeplment budget for testing and error handling and that is why our company is Nr.1 in the world in its segment.

The religious societies are not able to improve themself because no one in these societies can measure all activities with the target to find problem areas.

"You can't improve what you can't measure." (c) (someone said, I don't remember who)


You are very right in that u have to test and test and test and challenge anything that seriously effects your life to rely on them, let alone the One you trust your entire life upon.


To everyone:

As I have mentioned repeatedly that what we have been experiencing in Muslim world is not What Islam represents. Yes, Muslims failed/failing but it doesnt not mirror the Islam. If you hear news that your friend or brother bought an airplane or killed someone, you want to go and ask him personally, especially if that person is important for you. So if you want to know how Islam faces such tests or challenges, you have to look at Quran and it foundations or Prophet Muhammad pbuh who brought it to us, Not the weak and disoriented Muslims and their actions (why weak and disoriented is another topic). Thus, evidence shows that Islam i.e. Quran withstood the tests and challenges of the world for centuries, and as it says in the Quran itself "'If all the humans and all the jinns bonded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another.'" (Qur'an 17:88). "And if you are in doubt as to which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a sura like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful." (Qur'an 2:23). This is how Quran/Islam challenges the critics, and up to this day noone in this world has been able to produce anything like it (fact). Now this is Quran not Muslims, just want to say that Quran/Islam has given people opportunity to challenge it, and it does not say anywhere that critics should be killed or punished if they try (what would be the point then to offer it). Now lets look at the Prophet pbuh "In the year (631 CE), Prophet Muhammad received a delegation of sixty Christians from Najran in Medinah. They were received in the Prophet’s mosque wearing their crosses. The companions of prophet Muhammad tried to prevent them from praying in the mosque, but the prophet allowed them to pray in the mosque, and they did so facing East.
He said, "The one who kill a mu'aahid will not smell the smell of the Paradise although its smell can be smelled from a distance of forty years (i.e He will not enter the Paradise nor be close to it)." (Bukhari)
"Prophet Muhammad had a Jewish neighbour who used to throw garbage and dead animals in his way every day when he came out of his house. This man was absent for a while. Prophet Muhammad decided to pass by his house and ask about him. He found him ill and accordingly paid him a visit"
The atheists of Quraish used to throw garbage on his body while he was praying. The prophet’s daughter Fatema usually removed this garbage.
They started to torture his weak followers using all possible techniques! They put bani Hashim and bani Abd El- Mottalib under siege and decided to boycott them totally.
The prophet and his followers were about to starve.
The atheists of Quraish also, claimed that he was no more than a mad man, a magician or a poet who had a great influence on those who listened to him.
Regardless of all of this, he used to pray for them and ask Allah to forgive them and lead them to the right path, as they did not know it!
Moreover, when prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, entered Mecca and the atheists surrendered almost without any fight, they were captivated. Imagine what he did…he set them free and did not think of revenge for what they did in the past! BUT many different MUSLIMS are intolerant for such criticism, cuz its like an offense to them which DOES NOT invalidate the openness of Quran/Islam for challenges. Problem we have is with Muslims not Quran/Islam, who are simple human beings and who COULD not sometimes tolerate tests or challenges. And again I am saying that Islam/Quran is open to tests, challenges, opposition...and challengers have yet to challenge. Also Islam is not the cause of Muslims' present state, there were times, not just few years or tens of years but centuries and centuries when Islamic regions were the MOST advanced, developed, civilized areas of the World (Spain is an excellent example for contrast with other European countries at that time). Therefore Islam is centuries proven system, but Muslims have failed and failing. Reasons for that are outside and inside Muslims themselves not in Islam/Quran.

p.s. If you have a perfect jet airplane but u dont know how to fly well and crashit, then its not the airplane that defaulted, it is you.

[lilbit]

Yes, Muslims failed/failing but it doesnt not mirror the Islam.
here is what I was talking about!!! Finally you admitted it. Implementation of Islam is being failed by Muslims. And there is now way of blaming Christians, Jews or anybody else's in fault of Muslims.

All the religions have positive and negative sides but implementation of them is totally different. And remember, Science was always the first enemy of Religion.

[SAMARKANDI!]

here is what I was talking about!!! Finally you admitted it. Implementation of Islam is being failed by Muslims. And there is now way of blaming Christians, Jews or anybody else's in fault of Muslims.

All the religions have positive and negative sides but implementation of them is totally different. And remember, Science was always the first enemy of Religion.

I did not admit, I have been saying this since the beginning, seems u havent been reading at all.

Again, I am telling you this. You sound funny when u talk things that u have no idea about with such confidence. Bring me any ANY proof from Quran not from a Muslim, but from Quran for your claim. Back it up with Quran.

And dont confuse Christianity with Islam, where if u have read how Catholic church used to kill and prosecute and ban books that were talking anything besides Christianity and Jesus in the past.

Repeat it, back ur statements with Quran that Islam=Quran, not Muslims are against science.

[lilbit]

I did not admit, I have been saying this since the beginning, seems u havent been reading at all.

Again, I am telling you this. You sound funny when u talk things that u have no idea about with such confidence. Bring me any ANY proof from Quran not from a Muslim, but from Quran for your claim. Back it up with Quran.

And dont confuse Christianity with Islam, where if u have read how Catholic church used kill and prosecute and ban books that were talking anything besides Christianity and Jesus in the past.

Repeat it, back ur statements with Quran that Islam=Quran, not Muslims are against science.
Where are you getting those statements from? Take a look at any post and you will see that I was talking about Muslims and religion, and how they implement it. And I've never said that there is something wrong in Quran. Get back out of your conclusions and come back to what I really wrote.

Below what I've written before:
post N7
Muslim world lacking knowledge not because of lack of education but because of strict religious control of it. The only way to change this closed circle is to separate religion from education.

post N26
Muslims were laid back because of practice and implementation of their own religion.

Post N35
Everything in muslim world countries depends on ruler! Man in power decides what's good for the country. If King supports science - there is development. As soon as King leaves his power to religion - . . . .

Post N37
Dorogoi, I am talking not about Islam but about religion and people who represent it. Islam encourages pursuit of knowledge. But knowledge always has a threat to some religious people (BTW not only in Islam, but also in Christianity{Inquisition}) who fear to loose their power. That's a main reason of why in medieval ages so much scientist were persecuted mostly by religion not by politics or economics!!!

Read and compare to what you've just wrote!!!


And a question: Is everything you read messed up and then analyzed or you first analyzing and then messing it all up?

[Bukharan]

A website called Islamicity explains Islam's approach to knowledge in the following way:

"Islam is a religion based upon knowledge for it is ultimately knowledge of the Oneness of God combined with faith and total commitment to Him that saves man."

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/IGC/knowledge.htm

That means Islam is based on a certain knowledge confined in a single idea and combined with faith, not reason. Whoever questions the idea is known as 'shakkak' or a Muslim in doubt or whoever tries to question it further is to be called a 'mushrik' or heretic. Obviously it is not a right way to encourage people's pursuit of knowledge while hammering down their curiosity.

As mentioned earlier by a user here, Qor'an says: 'If all the humans and all the jinns bonded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another.'

This is actually a pre-emtive measure to hinder any daring person's attempt to produce 'a Qur'an like this'. While history knows many Arabs of the first Islamic century who insisted that Qur'an could have been written by any of their poets in a much better style. Some of them were annoyed by repetitive phrases used in Qor'an and pointed it out as one of the main weaknesses of the book. There had been even claims about contradictive points in it.

But none of those critics alleged being atheist as the Arab tribes of those days had their own religion. They believed in their idols. Four of the major idols of the Qureish tribe were called Lat, Uzza, Manat and Allah. The first three gods were worshiped as daughters of Allah. It took Muslims too long to struggle against idol worshippers and nail down the new religion in their minds. It is a well-known fact that even Muhammad's grandfather Abu Mutallib did not believe in Islam and according to the Prophet, he's burning in hell now. But those pagan religions of the past respected people's will to question anything a great deal and come out with their own ideas about the Being and the Universe. Subsequently, hundreds of "hatifs" and prophets appeared in the peninsula with their numerous followers. Islam put a fullstop to the process by declaring that Muhammad was the last prophet of humanity - 'khatam-ul-anbia' - and whoever came out with a different vision of the issues of being and creation were executed as heretics and infidels. Even now Bahais are prosecuted, because their prophet was born hundreds of years after Muhammad, in the 19th century in Shiraz. This is a simple fact that Islam from the very dawn of it did not encourage people's curiosity, on the contrary tried to stifle it altogether, and restrict the knowledge within the borders of Islam.

When Khalif Umar ibn Khattab conquered Persia he ordered his soldiers to burn all books with no exception. According to him, Qur'an was the only book humanity needed because it contained all knowledge of the universe. Aburayhan Beruni writes in his 'Asar-ul-baqiya' that Arabs heated baths of Khorezm for three months by burning all local books they'd found there.

The so called 'Islamic Renaissance' has nothing to do with the religion itself as most of its products were not religious in content but scientific or literary. Most of the scholars and writers had been prosecuted for their struggle to keep the knowledge alight and to create their civilization anew.

[SAMARKANDI!]

A website called Islamicity explains Islam's approach to knowledge in the following way:

"Islam is a religion based upon knowledge for it is ultimately knowledge of the Oneness of God combined with faith and total commitment to Him that saves man."

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/IGC/knowledge.htm

That means Islam is based on a certain knowledge confined in a single idea and combined with faith, not reason. Whoever questions the idea is known as 'shakkak' or a Muslim in doubt or whoever tries to question it further is to be called a 'mushrik' or heretic. Obviously it is not a right way to encourage people's pursuit of knowledge while hammering down their curiosity.

As mentioned earlier by a user here, Qor'an says: 'If all the humans and all the jinns bonded together in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance they lent one another.'

This is actually a pre-emtive measure to hinder any daring person's attempt to produce 'a Qur'an like this'. While history knows many Arabs of the first Islamic century who insisted that Qur'an could have been written by any of their poets in a much better style. Some of them were annoyed by repetitive phrases used in Qor'an and pointed it out as one of the main weaknesses of the book. There had been even claims about contradictive points in it.

But none of those critics alleged being atheist as the Arab tribes of those days had their own religion. They believed in their idols. Four of the major idols of the Qureish tribe were called Lat, Uzza, Manat and Allah. The first three gods were worshiped as daughters of Allah. It took Muslims too long to struggle against idol worshippers and nail down the new religion in their minds. It is a well-known fact that even Muhammad's grandfather did not believe in Islam and according to the Prophet, he's burning in hell now. But those pagan religions of the past respected people's will to question anything a great deal and come out with their own ideas about the Being and the Universe. Subsequently, hundreds of "hatifs" and prophets appeared in the peninsula with their numerous followers. Islam put a fullstop to the process by declaring that Muhammad was the last prophet of humanity - 'khatam-ul-anbia' and whoever came out with a different vision of the issues of being and creation were executed as heretics and infidels. Even now Bahais are prosecuted, because their prophet was born hundreds of years after Muhammad, in the 19th century in Shiraz. This is a simple fact that Islam from the very dawn of it did not encourage people's curiosity, on the contrary tried to stifle it altogether, and restrict the knowledge within the borders of Islam.

When Khalif Umar ibn Khattab conquered Persia he ordered his soldiers to burn all books with no exception. According to him, Qur'an was the only book humanity needed because it contained all knowledge of the universe. The same happened in Central Asia. Aburayhan Beruni writes in his 'Asar-ul-baqiya' that Arabs heated baths of the country for three months by burning all local books they've found there.

The so called 'Islamic Renaissance' has nothing to do with the religion itself as most of its products were not religious but scientific. Most of the scholars and writers had been prosecuted for their struggle to keep the knowledge alight and to create their civilization anew.


There is a sect in Syria where men engage in sex with each other's wives and they take one guy who moved to France (with the sects help :D) as their prophet or god ( not sure) and they call themselves Muslims and they define relationship in a certain above mentioned way. Doesnt change or invalidate what Quran says. Muslims say alot of different things dear. ;)

And the Knowledge as u quoted above is referring particularly to religious knowledge not the knowledge in general. and whatever those weak Muslims did is not representative of Quran/Islam.

[Bukharan]

Islam is not a vague idea. It is a well-established religion represented by Muslims throughout the world. Islam is whatever its followers are now. Your idealistic Islam does not exist. And whatever I said earlier was based on Qor'an, not boys from Syria or France (that was so confusing lol). Even in Qor'an knowledge is differentiated as useful and harmful. The knowledge of the Jahiliya (pre-Islamic) era is identified as useless or rather harmful. Imam Ghazzali has a lengthy tractate about useful and useless knowledges according to Qur'an. As soon as you restrict knowledge in this way you will see the decline in the number of knowledge seekers. Because not everybody is willing to risk and taste the forbidden fruit.

There is a sect in Syria where men engage in sex with each other's wives and they take one guy who moved to France (with the sects help :D) as their prophet or god ( not sure) and they call themselves Muslims and they define relationship in a certain above mentioned way. Doesnt change or invalidate what Quran says. Muslims say alot of different things dear. ;)

And the Knowledge as u quoted above is referring particularly to religious knowledge not the knowledge in general. and whatever those weak Muslims did is not representative of Quran/Islam.

[SAMARKANDI!]

Islam is not a vague idea. It is a well-established religion represented by Muslims throughout the world. Islam is whatever its followers are now. Your idealistic view of Islam does not exist. And whatever I said earlier was based on Qor'an, not boys from Syria or France (that was so confusing lol). Even in Qor'an knowledge is differentiated as useful and harmful. The knowledge of the Jahiliya (pre-Islamic) era is identified as useless or rather harmful. Imam Ghazali has a lengthy tractate about useful and useless knowledges according to Qur'an. As soon as you restrict knowledge in this way you will see the decline in the number of knowledge seekers. Because not everybody is willing to risk and taste the forbidden fruit.

If u think u based your opinions here from Quran u r confused mate, very confused : ). All what u have been giving us here are from some muslims. Did I see any quote from Quran?

My idealistic view of Islam exists and have been in existence for 1400 years, The Quran, and even has been successfully implemented for many centuries during Islamic golden age, longer than any present day "developed" nations and their systems. Quran does not differentiate the general knowledge AT ALL. Because u lack knowledge about what Quran says, u have come to such conclusion. The harmful knowledge is in referal to religious views such as worshiping icons, pictures or trinity, not the general knowledge that we seek.

How did u think these following scientists got their knowledge?

List of Muslim astronomers
Further information: Islamic astronomy
Muhammad
Muhammad Ahmad Khan Minhas
Khalid ibn Yazid (Calid)
Jafar al-Sadiq
Yaqūb ibn Tāriq
Ibrahim al-Fazari
Muhammad al-Fazari
Mashallah
Naubakht
Al-Khwarizmi, also a mathematician
Ja'far ibn Muhammad Abu Ma'shar al-Balkhi (Albumasar)
Al-Farghani
Banū Mūsā (Ben Mousa)
Ja'far Muhammad ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir
Ahmad ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir
Al-Hasan ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir
Thābit ibn Qurra (Thebit)
Sinan ibn Thabit
Ibrahim ibn Sinan
Al-Majriti
Muhammad ibn Jābir al-Harrānī al-Battānī (Albatenius)
Al-Farabi (Abunaser)
Abd Al-Rahman Al Sufi
Abu Sa'id Gorgani
Kushyar ibn Labban
Abū Ja'far al-Khāzin
Al-Mahani
Al-Marwazi
Al-Nayrizi
Al-Saghani
Al-Farghani
Abu Nasr Mansur
Abū Sahl al-Qūhī (Kuhi)
Abu-Mahmud al-Khujandi
Abū al-Wafā' al-Būzjānī
Ibn Yunus
Ibn al-Haytham (Alhacen)
Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
Avicenna
Abū Ishāq Ibrāhīm al-Zarqālī (Arzachel)
Omar Khayyám
Al-Khazini
Ibn Bajjah (Avempace)
Ibn Tufail (Abubacer)
Nur Ed-Din Al Betrugi (Alpetragius)
Averroes
Al-Jazari
Sharaf al-Dīn al-Tūsī
Anvari
Mo'ayyeduddin Urdi
Nasir al-Din Tusi
Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi
Ibn al-Shatir
Shams al-Dīn al-Samarqandī
Jamshīd al-Kāshī
Ulugh Beg, also a mathematician
Taqi al-Din, Ottoman astronomer
Ahmad Nahavandi
Haly Abenragel
Ghallia Kaouk
Abolfadl Harawi
Kerim Kerimov, a founder of Soviet space program, a lead architect behind first human spaceflight (Vostok 1), and the lead architect of the first space stations (Salyut and Mir)[1][2]
Farouk El-Baz, a NASA scientist involved in the first Moon landings with the Apollo program[3]
Abdul Kalam
Sultan bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Muhammed Faris
Abdul Ahad Mohmand
Abdul Ahad - Astronomer and author (UK)[4]
Talgat Musabayev
Anousheh Ansari
Amir Ansari
Essam Heggy, a planetary scientist involved in the NASA Mars Exploration Program[5]
Ahmed Salem
Alaa Ibrahim
Mohamed Sultan
Ahmed Noor
Yunus Aswat
Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor, pioneer of biomedical research in space

Chemists and Alchemists
Further information: Alchemy (Islam)
Khalid ibn Yazid (Calid)
Jafar al-Sadiq
Jabir Ibn Hayyan (Geber), father of chemistry[8][9][10]
Abbas Ibn Firnas (Armen Firman)
Al-Kindi (Alkindus)
Al-Majriti
Ibn Miskawayh
Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
Avicenna
Al-Khazini
Nasir al-Din Tusi
Hasan al-Rammah
Ibn Khaldun
Sake Dean Mahomet
Salimuzzaman Siddiqui
Al Khawazimi Father of Al-Gabra, (Mathematics)
Ahmed H. Zewail, Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1999[11]
Ali Eftekhari

and list goes on and on (source wiki)

So Quran/Islam is definitly not against knowledge or getting knowledge it is some weak Muslims who may claim so.

p.s. Next time when u say I base my opinion on Quran, bring quotes from Quran and put them in context, and dont confuse urself and us with some people's opinion saying it is Quran ;)

[Bukharan]

Go back to my message, open up your eyes and you'll see the quotes. There was a quote that you brought to back up your biased view, but it turned out to serve my opinion. It's time to wake up, come out of history and live your today.

If u think u based your opinions here from Quran u r confused mate, very confused : ). All what u have been giving us here are from some muslims. Did I see any quote from Quran?

My idealistic view of Islam exists and have been in existence for 1400 years, The Quran, and even has been successfully implemented for many centuries during Islamic golden age, longer than any present day "developed" nations and their systems. Quran does not differentiate the general knowledge AT ALL. Because u lack knowledge about what Quran says, u have come to such conclusion. The harmful knowledge is in referal to religious views such as worshiping icons, pictures or trinity, not the general knowledge that we seek.

How did u think these following scientists got their knowledge?

List of Muslim astronomers
Further information: Islamic astronomy
Muhammad
Muhammad Ahmad Khan Minhas
Khalid ibn Yazid (Calid)
Jafar al-Sadiq
Yaqūb ibn Tāriq
Ibrahim al-Fazari
Muhammad al-Fazari
Mashallah
Naubakht
Al-Khwarizmi, also a mathematician
Ja'far ibn Muhammad Abu Ma'shar al-Balkhi (Albumasar)
Al-Farghani
Banū Mūsā (Ben Mousa)
Ja'far Muhammad ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir
Ahmad ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir
Al-Hasan ibn Mūsā ibn Shākir
Thābit ibn Qurra (Thebit)
Sinan ibn Thabit
Ibrahim ibn Sinan
Al-Majriti
Muhammad ibn Jābir al-Harrānī al-Battānī (Albatenius)
Al-Farabi (Abunaser)
Abd Al-Rahman Al Sufi
Abu Sa'id Gorgani
Kushyar ibn Labban
Abū Ja'far al-Khāzin
Al-Mahani
Al-Marwazi
Al-Nayrizi
Al-Saghani
Al-Farghani
Abu Nasr Mansur
Abū Sahl al-Qūhī (Kuhi)
Abu-Mahmud al-Khujandi
Abū al-Wafā' al-Būzjānī
Ibn Yunus
Ibn al-Haytham (Alhacen)
Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
Avicenna
Abū Ishāq Ibrāhīm al-Zarqālī (Arzachel)
Omar Khayyám
Al-Khazini
Ibn Bajjah (Avempace)
Ibn Tufail (Abubacer)
Nur Ed-Din Al Betrugi (Alpetragius)
Averroes
Al-Jazari
Sharaf al-Dīn al-Tūsī
Anvari
Mo'ayyeduddin Urdi
Nasir al-Din Tusi
Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi
Ibn al-Shatir
Shams al-Dīn al-Samarqandī
Jamshīd al-Kāshī
Ulugh Beg, also a mathematician
Taqi al-Din, Ottoman astronomer
Ahmad Nahavandi
Haly Abenragel
Ghallia Kaouk
Abolfadl Harawi
Kerim Kerimov, a founder of Soviet space program, a lead architect behind first human spaceflight (Vostok 1), and the lead architect of the first space stations (Salyut and Mir)[1][2]
Farouk El-Baz, a NASA scientist involved in the first Moon landings with the Apollo program[3]
Abdul Kalam
Sultan bin Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud
Muhammed Faris
Abdul Ahad Mohmand
Abdul Ahad - Astronomer and author (UK)[4]
Talgat Musabayev
Anousheh Ansari
Amir Ansari
Essam Heggy, a planetary scientist involved in the NASA Mars Exploration Program[5]
Ahmed Salem
Alaa Ibrahim
Mohamed Sultan
Ahmed Noor
Yunus Aswat
Sheikh Muszaphar Shukor, pioneer of biomedical research in space

Chemists and Alchemists
Further information: Alchemy (Islam)
Khalid ibn Yazid (Calid)
Jafar al-Sadiq
Jabir Ibn Hayyan (Geber), father of chemistry[8][9][10]
Abbas Ibn Firnas (Armen Firman)
Al-Kindi (Alkindus)
Al-Majriti
Ibn Miskawayh
Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī
Avicenna
Al-Khazini
Nasir al-Din Tusi
Hasan al-Rammah
Ibn Khaldun
Sake Dean Mahomet
Salimuzzaman Siddiqui
Al Khawazimi Father of Al-Gabra, (Mathematics)
Ahmed H. Zewail, Nobel Prize in Chemistry, 1999[11]
Ali Eftekhari

and list goes on and on (source wiki)

So Quran/Islam is definitly not against knowledge or getting knowledge it is some weak Muslims who may claim so.

p.s. Next time when u say I base my opinion on Quran, bring quotes from Quran and put them in context, and dont confuse urself and us with some people's opinion saying it is Quran ;)

[Bukharan]

Qoranic verses about harmful kind of knowledge:

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:102 and follow [instead] that which the evil ones used to practice during Solomon's reign - for it was not Solomon who denied the truth, but those evil ones denied it by teaching people sorcery [82] -; and [they follow] that which has come down through the two angels in Babylon, Hurut and Marut-although these two never taught it to anyone without first declaring, "We are but a temptation to evil: do not, then, deny [God's] truth!" [83] And they learn from these two how to create discord between a man and his wife; but whereas they can harm none thereby save by God's leave, they acquire a knowledge that only harms themselves and does not benefit them - although they know; indeed, that he who acquires this [knowledge] shall have no share in the good of the life to come. [84] For, vile indeed is that [art] for which they have sold their own selves -had they but known it!

WaittabaAAoo ma tatloo alshshayateenu AAala mulki sulaymana wama kafara sulaymanu walakinna alshshayateena kafaroo yuAAallimoona alnnasa alssihra wama onzila AAala almalakayni bibabila haroota wamaroota wama yuAAallimani min ahadin hatta yaqoola innama nahnu fitnatun fala takfur fayataAAallamoona minhuma ma yufarriqoona bihi bayna almari wazawjihi wama hum bidarreena bihi min ahadin illa biithni Allahi wayataAAallamoona ma yadurruhum wala yanfaAAuhum walaqad AAalimoo lamani ishtarahu ma lahu fee alakhirati min khalaqin walabisa ma sharaw bihi anfusahum law kanoo yaAAlamoona

[Bukharan]

In the suras below Qor'an implies that "the knowledge" is solely Islam:

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:120 For, never will the Jews be pleased with thee. nor yet the Christians, unless thou follow their own creeds. Say: "Behold, God's guidance is the only true guidance." And, indeed, if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee. thou wouldst have none to protect thee from God, and none to bring thee succour.

Walan tarda AAanka alyahoodu wala alnnasara hatta tattabiAAa millatahum qul inna huda Allahi huwa alhuda walaini ittabaAAta ahwaahum baAAda allathee jaaka mina alAAilmi ma laka mina Allahi min waliyyin wala naseerin

Al-Baqara (The Cow) (after the direction of Qiblah was suddenly changed from Jerusalem towards Kaaba in Mecca - Bukharan):

2:145 And yet, even if thou wert to place all evidence [121] before those who have been vouchsafed earlier revelation, they would not follow thy direction of prayer; and neither mayest thou follow their direction of prayer, nor even do they follow one another's direction. And if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee thou wouldst surely be among the evildoers.

Walain atayta allatheena ootoo alkitaba bikulli ayatin ma tabiAAoo qiblataka wama anta bitabiAAin qiblatahum wama baAAduhum bitabiAAin qiblata baAAdin walaini ittabaAAta ahwaahum min baAAdi ma jaaka mina alAAilmi innaka ithan lamina alththalimeena

[SAMARKANDI!]

Go back to my message, open up your eyes and you'll see the quotes. There was a quote that you brought to back up your biased view, but it turned out to serve my opinion. It's time to wake up, come out of history and live your today.

Your quotes are completely irrelevant, has nothing to do with general knowledge we r talking about. Thats what happens when u cant find any relevant sura or quote u have to use ur best skills which is making up stuff. Even that quote which is again has nothing to do with banning any kind of knowledge is actually asking anyone to bring anything like it (Quran), it is encouraging u to find such knowledge. ;)

Sorry mate, fabrication doesnt work with Quran. U will NEVER EVER in you entire life will be able to find in Quran anything that is against seeking knowledge, unless u use ur regular lying and fabricating tactics.

[Bukharan]

And again, Qor'an believes that knowledge could be itself only:

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:7 He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. [5] Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ [6] which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, [7] and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. [8] Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.

Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun faamma allatheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabiAAoona ma tashabaha minhu ibtighaa alfitnati waibtighaa taweelihi wama yaAAlamu taweelahu illa Allahu waalrrasikhoona fee alAAilmi yaqooloona amanna bihi kullun min AAindi rabbina wama yaththakkaru illa oloo alalbabi

[Bukharan]

Qoran's frank message again: good knowledge is Islam and Quran itself:

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:19 Behold, the only [true] religion in the sight of God is [man's] self-surrender unto Him; and those who were vouchsafed revelation aforetime [12] took, out of mutual jealousy, to divergent views [on this point] only after knowledge [thereof] had come unto them. [13] But as for him who denies the truth of God's messages - behold, God is swift in reckoning!

Inna alddeena AAinda Allahi alislamu wama ikhtalafa allatheena ootoo alkitaba illa min baAAdi ma jaahumu alAAilmu baghyan baynahum waman yakfur biayati Allahi fainna Allaha sareeAAu alhisabi

[Bukharan]

Repetitive, yet another fact:

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:61 And if anyone should argue with thee about this [truth] after all the knowledge that has come unto thee, say: "Come! Let us summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves; and then let us pray [together] humbly and ardently, and let us invoke God's curse upon those [of us] who are telling a lie." [48]

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah's curse]

Faman hajjaka feehi min baAAdi ma jaaka mina alAAilmi faqul taAAalaw nadAAu abnaana waabnaakum wanisaana wanisaakum waanfusana waanfusakum thumma nabtahil fanajAAal laAAnata Allahi AAala alkathibeena

[SAMARKANDI!]

And again, Qor'an believes that knowledge could be itself only:

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:7 He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical. [5] Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ [6] which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion, [7] and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning. [8] Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.


Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun faamma allatheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabiAAoona ma tashabaha minhu ibtighaa alfitnati waibtighaa taweelihi wama yaAAlamu taweelahu illa Allahu waalrrasikhoona fee alAAilmi yaqooloona amanna bihi kullun min AAindi rabbina wama yaththakkaru illa oloo alalbabi

What does it have to do with seeking and learning other knowledge????? its simply asking u to believe in Quran. Believing in Quran does not mean dont seek knowledge and dont learn. Man, take a break and come back later on and read what u have written here one more time : ) u r confused, u have pushed urself into the corner with ur fabrications.

[Bukharan]

According to Qoran, whoever has no knowledge of the divine writ (Quran) is following only wishful beliefs and depending on conjecture