why we should fight?

[Lovelylady]

Ok guys after reading a lot of topics i have question why everyone fights over religion if you guys believe to certain things and i don't it is my problem, and why some people are offending other people's religion, christinaity right islam is wrong what is that? If you believe to one religion and if you find a peace in ur soul by believing to it leave everyone alone and live ahppy ever after. there are so many wars happneed because of religion, it is 21 century and why can't we create peaceful life?

[lilbit]

Bukharan, v studiyu!

[Lovelylady]

didn't understand what u mean? could u explain please

[Shahnoz]

Lovelylady, you are asking way too many questions :-)

Not that it's a bad thing or anything...

Well, do you remember when you first learned that Santa isn't real? Painful, isn't it?

That's quite the equivalent... different groups of people, each with their own "Santa", try to prove each other that theirs is the Santa. Some say, "Santa likes when you leave cookies and milk for him", others say "You should do good stuff, he'll come and get you", then others argue "No, you sick people.. you should cry every day, so he'll hear you", or "Try writing letters to him 8 times a day, and he'll eventually bring you presents..".

When every one of those people brings their argument to the discussion, the others feel like their Santa is being proven fictional. Which hurts. And since most of them are not little children, they don't cry helplessly and/or accept the other's arguments, but fight.

:-)

[AbdurRahman]

Ok guys after reading a lot of topics i have question why everyone fights over religion if you guys believe to certain things and i don't it is my problem, and why some people are offending other people's religion, christinaity right islam is wrong what is that? If you believe to one religion and if you find a peace in ur soul by believing to it leave everyone alone and live ahppy ever after. there are so many wars happneed because of religion, it is 21 century and why can't we create peaceful life?

We don't only need peace in 21st century, rather in EVERY century we need peace.

If you believe to one religion and if you find a peace in ur soul by believing to it leave everyone alone and live ahppy ever after.

Here we are talking about Eternal happiness and eternal punishment. If anyone chooses wrong path after true path made clear to them then for them there is danger to be in eternal punishment. That is why it is important that we take things seriously and not lightly.

The only way to achieve true happiness and peace is to follow the guidance of The One Who is All Knowing , All Wise. There is no other way to achieve that. So it is very important that each of us sincerely, honoustly, truthfully and openly seek this guidance and follow it.

[Lovelylady]

well i believ in Allah and i found peace i tried to argue with people who has different religion and i tried to compare but the things when it comes to religion everybody gets so emational so i found another way i listen to them and then compare islam i don't know, but when people start talking about religion there is always misunderstanding and misleading information.

[AbdurRahman]

well i believ in Allah and i found peace i tried to argue with people who has different religion and i tried to compare but the things when it comes to religion everybody gets so emational so i found another way i listen to them and then compare islam i don't know, but when people start talking about religion there is always misunderstanding and misleading information.

Well, welcome to reality : )

There are emotions involved yes. but we have to handle these things by going back to the guidance of Allaah and everything will be fine inshaAllaah.

The best way to learn is to ask the most knowledgeable people in that field. Like Salman Al Farsi what did he do? In every religion he went to ask from the best learned among them. He himself was clever man and not biased and open to truth. And eventually Allaah guided him to truth and he became one of the great companions of Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

Allaah says:
And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them. It is they for whom there is an awful torment. (Aali Imran 3:105)

[Abdu Al Azizi]

Lovelylady, i am not claiming to be in the state to advise others, but i can recommend you to read Tafsiri Hilol where you will be able to learn the ayaat of Quran particularly the ayaat which explain different types of people, non muslims as well as muslims.

Your ideas and questions are very similiar to one person's ideas and questions who has got all his answers from Tafsiri Hilol.

[Lovelylady]

another question? yesterday i was talking to my friend she is a christian and she asked in qoran in how many days Allah created earth, well telling the truth i just started learning about islam and i don't know how come but iam becoming little bit religous but telling the truth i didn't know the answer so here is the question is it written in qoranabout creation of earth if yes? please write it for me, As i know in bible says that it was created in 6 days and everybody should have rest on saturday but people mislead it too by praying on sunday i don't know what believe?

[Lovelylady]

Lovelylady, i am not claiming to be in the state to advise others, but i can recommend you to read Tafsiri Hilol where you will be able to learn the ayaat of Quran particularly the ayaat which explain different types of people, non muslims as well as muslims.

Your ideas and questions are very similiar to one person's ideas and questions who has got all his answers from Tafsiri Hilol.
thank you and how can i find it?
Tafsiri hilol cause iam in us and i don't know how to find it, as i meantion it i have a lot of question regarding to islam since iam new in religion, well i born as a muslim but i never interested in islam now i looking for to learn more and practice it so please help me to answer my questions i need help

[Lovelylady]

Well, welcome to reality : )

There are emotions involved yes. but we have to handle these things by going back to the guidance of Allaah and everything will be fine inshaAllaah.

The best way to learn is to ask the most knowledgeable people in that field. Like Salman Al Farsi what did he do? In every religion he went to ask from the best learned among them. He himself was clever man and not biased and open to truth. And eventually Allaah guided him to truth and he became one of the great companions of Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

Allaah says:
And be not as those who divided and differed among themselves after the clear proofs had come to them. It is they for whom there is an awful torment. (Aali Imran 3:105)
who is Salman Al Farsi?

[AbdurRahman]

another question? yesterday i was talking to my friend she is a christian and she asked in qoran in how many days Allah created earth, well telling the truth i just started learning about islam and i don't know how come but iam becoming little bit religous but telling the truth i didn't know the answer so here is the question is it written in qoranabout creation of earth if yes? please write it for me, As i know in bible says that it was created in 6 days and everybody should have rest on saturday but people mislead it too by praying on sunday i don't know what believe?


”Indeed, your Lord is Allaah, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and then He rose over (Istawa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the creation and commandment. Blessed is Allaah, the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)!”
[al-A’raaf 7:54]

Christians say that God created heavens and earth in 6 days and then He rested, and by this they are giving an attribute of deficiency to Allaah, because resting is purely an attribute of creation.

Here is the good article about believing in Allaah in uzbek language. very simple and clear:

http://uzmuslima.sofislom.com/aiymon.php or download ebook from here: http://www.sofislom.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=147

[AbdurRahman]

who is Salman Al Farsi?


Please, read this: http://abdurrahman.org/seerah/persiansalman.pdf

[Abdu Al Azizi]

another question? yesterday i was talking to my friend she is a christian and she asked in qoran in how many days Allah created earth, well telling the truth i just started learning about islam and i don't know how come but iam becoming little bit religous but telling the truth i didn't know the answer so here is the question is it written in qoranabout creation of earth if yes? please write it for me, As i know in bible says that it was created in 6 days and everybody should have rest on saturday but people mislead it too by praying on sunday i don't know what believe?

Lovelady, mana bu web site'da dawah uchun juda foydali ma'lumotlar olish bilan dinni ham yahhsi urganish imkoniyati bor. Siz inglizcha bilasiz, bu juda yahshi. Lecturelar ingliz tilida.

Dr Zakir Naikning bir qator lecturelari juda foydali. Kupchilik notugri tushunilgan sawollarga javob bor.

Dr. William campbell bilan bulgan Dialogue ham juda foydali hristiyanlar bilan suhbatlashish uchun.

Hullas, kup yahsi ma'lumotlar olish mumkin


http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027&TitleName=Zakir_Naik

Download qilib dawah maqsadida tarqatsangiz ham buladi!

[Mr.Abdullah]

Ok guys after reading a lot of topics i have question why everyone fights over religion if you guys believe to certain things and i don't it is my problem, and why some people are offending other people's religion, christinaity right islam is wrong what is that? If you believe to one religion and if you find a peace in ur soul by believing to it leave everyone alone and live ahppy ever after. there are so many wars happneed because of religion, it is 21 century and why can't we create peaceful life?

Вот вы спрашиваете зачем драться из-за религии. Если это обращено в адрес мусульман, то знайте что мусульмане, если и ведут войны, то они защищают свои земли от иноверцов. Времена военного фатха земель мусульманами остались в прошлом. Мусульмане сейчас обороняются. Все активные войны в основном идут в странах где живут в основном мусульмане и естественно против них. Предлоги? Да если хорошо постараться, то можно найти или выдумать любые предоги. От них (христиан и иудеев) врядли можно ожидать искренную дружбу или поддержку. Как Аллах говорит в Священном Коране: "И никогда не будут довольны тобой ни иудеи, ни христиане, пока ты не последуешь за их религией" (Сура Бакара, 120-й аят). Иудеи захватили Палестину при пособничестве христианских стран и творят против мусульман зло. Тоже самое в Ираке, многострадальном братском Афгане, в Кашмире, на Кавказе. И потому, ваш вопрос должен быть направлен в сторону исраэля и главного "шайтана-жандарма-укротителя" на земле америки и его пособников во всем мире. Аллах дал им силу, которую они используют против человечности, в первую очередь против мусульман.

[Black]

Lovelylady, you can read Tafsiri Hilol in below link.

www.quran.uz

[Lovelylady]

another question arose, do u guys believ to evolution then? what about big bang theory?

[Abdu Al Azizi]

another question arose, do u guys believ to evolution then? what about big bang theory?

You will find answers to these questions in the link that i gave you.

You need paience to watch all of them.

I advise you to watch the following:

Concept of God in various religions
Islam And Christianity
Is the Quran God's word.
Qur'an And Bible In The Light Of Science Vs Campbell
Quran And Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation
Similarities Between Islam And Christanity
http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50027&TitleName=Zakir_Naik



Here in the forum it is hardly possible to find detailed responses.

[Lovelylady]

thanks u all for ur answers today i got a new book called islam from A to z, it gives detailed information about how to pray
so

[Bukharan]

another question? yesterday i was talking to my friend she is a christian and she asked in qoran in how many days Allah created earth, well telling the truth i just started learning about islam and i don't know how come but iam becoming little bit religous but telling the truth i didn't know the answer so here is the question is it written in qoranabout creation of earth if yes? please write it for me, As i know in bible says that it was created in 6 days and everybody should have rest on saturday but people mislead it too by praying on sunday i don't know what believe?

Dear Lovelylady,

Have you been trying to appease religious rantings of others or have you come to spark a new rant?

You said, you are becoming more religious these days and at the same time you honestly admit your ignorance about Qor'an. How can you believe in something without knowing what exactly you believe in?

You rather try to rely on your reason and think: are 6 days enough to create a universe?

[Bukharan]

Please, read this: http://abdurrahman.org/seerah/persiansalman.pdf

That was an interesting stuff about Salman the Persian. But didn't you find this point a bit contradictory?

Salman says:

"When I saw them (Christians), I liked their prayers and became interested in their matter (religion). I said (to myself), "By Allah, this religion is better than that of ours"

Then the Muslim author adds:

"Salman kept an open mind, free from blind imitation."

So, when you doubt any other religion, it is good and an act of proving your open mind. But when you imitate Muslims blindly with no knowledge, it is called being 'an obedient servant of Allah' and 'pious'. How fair does it sound to you?

[Izida]

Вот вы спрашиваете зачем драться из-за религии. Если это обращено в адрес мусульман, то знайте что мусульмане, если и ведут войны, то они защищают свои земли от иноверцов. Времена военного фатха земель мусульманами остались в прошлом. Мусульмане сейчас обороняются. Все активные войны в основном идут в странах где живут в основном мусульмане и естественно против них. Предлоги? Да если хорошо постараться, то можно найти или выдумать любые предоги. От них (христиан и иудеев) врядли можно ожидать искренную дружбу или поддержку. Как Аллах говорит в Священном Коране: "И никогда не будут довольны тобой ни иудеи, ни христиане, пока ты не последуешь за их религией" (Сура Бакара, 120-й аят). Иудеи захватили Палестину при пособничестве христианских стран и творят против мусульман зло. Тоже самое в Ираке, многострадальном братском Афгане, в Кашмире, на Кавказе. И потому, ваш вопрос должен быть направлен в сторону исраэля и главного "шайтана-жандарма-укротителя" на земле америки и его пособников во всем мире. Аллах дал им силу, которую они используют против человечности, в первую очередь против мусульман.


Придумывать предлог, ради того, что бы воевать ради религии... Похоже на средневековую сказку. Когда вы наконец поймете, что даже если люди в открытую говорят, что воюют ради религии на самом деле эта самая религия будет предлогом. :)

[Mr.Abdullah]

Придумывать предлог, ради того, что бы воевать ради религии... Похоже на средневековую сказку. Когда вы наконец поймете, что даже если люди в открытую говорят, что воюют ради религии на самом деле эта самая религия будет предлогом. :)

Я говорю о том, что вижу!:twisted::evil::evil:! Может вам это и кажется сказкой средневековой, но я специально сказал что шайтно-материалистическая америка жадно хочет завоевать все. Под разными предлогами. Не говорю, что американцы воюют прикрываясь религией. Не ужели вам невидно, если где-либо закрепляется америка - там распространяется их зараза религия - демократия. И там туго приходится исламу. Ислам в тех странах будет только "в умах". Там никакого шариата не будет и помине. А для мусульман воевать за и религией очень важно. И именно религия дает силу истинным мусульманам в борьбе с врагом.

[AbdurRahman]

That was an interesting stuff about Salman the Persian. But didn't you find this point a bit contradictory?

Salman says:

"When I saw them (Christians), I liked their prayers and became interested in their matter (religion). I said (to myself), "By Allah, this religion is better than that of ours"

Then the Muslim author adds:

"Salman kept an open mind, free from blind imitation."

So, when you doubt any other religion, it is good and an act of proving your open mind. But when you imitate Muslims blindly with no knowledge, it is called being 'an obedient servant of Allah' and 'pious'. How fair does it sound to you?


No it is not contradictory. Rather when he said "When I saw them (Christians), I liked their prayers and became interested in their matter (religion). I said (to myself), "By Allah, this religion is better than that of ours"

he meant that christianity was better than his previous religion i.e fire worshipping.
and his saying shows that Salman was very open to truth and accepted it when something came across which is better than he thought it was. Unlike you he accepted reality and TRUTH. But problem with you is that you r NOT open to truth and what wanna prove Islam is wrong by ANY means because you already put in ur mind that Islam is wrong.

I hope one day you leave this blindness and bigotted partizanship and OPEN your eyes.

I never said nor called anyone to blindly imitate muslims. Rather I always say the opposite: search for proofs and avoid blind following. I have been like this since I started knowing Islam and will remain like this. Every muslim should have KNOWLEDGE of what they are doing before they are doing. Blind following and doing things without knowledge is of no good to them. and everyone should make sure that knowledge which they have is the correct knowledge and also they understand it correctly.

Sources of Islam: Quran and authentic ahadeeth upon the understanding of Companions of Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. If anyone does not speak with this then they are not giving you knowledge of Islam rather they are giving you just opinions which can be rejected or accepted based on the correctness of the opinion.

[Izida]

Я говорю о том, что вижу!:twisted::evil::evil:! Может вам это и кажется сказкой средневековой, но я специально сказал что шайтно-материалистическая америка жадно хочет завоевать все. Под разными предлогами. Не говорю, что американцы воюют прикрываясь религией. Не ужели вам невидно, если где-либо закрепляется америка - там распространяется их зараза религия - демократия. И там туго приходится исламу. Ислам в тех странах будет только "в умах". Там никакого шариата не будет и помине. А для мусульман воевать за и религией очень важно. И именно религия дает силу истинным мусульманам в борьбе с врагом.

И делает эффективным оружием в руках тех, кто особо то на этой религии и не заморачивается. ;)
Демократия это не религия.

1.Религия обещает вечное блаженство, а политические убеждения редко становятся дорогой в рай.
2.Религиозным человек бывает чаще по рождению, а убеждения приходят с возрастом.
3. У демократа, есть разумные аргументы на вопрос "почему ты демократ?". А у религиозных людей, только утверждения, которые зачастую должны приниматься как аксиомы.

Почему то у всех мусульман есть комплекс, что их притесняют, пытаются уничтожить. Это тоже наверное результат учений в которых говорится, что никакой представитель другой религии не сможет быть вам другом. Не ужели не понятно, что даже это утверждение служит на то, что бы мусульмане развивали свои комплексы и сражались со всем не исламским миром, таким образом вызывая неприязнь людей, на которую потом можно ссылаться.

П.С. Иногда наши глаза нас могут обманывать. ;)

[Mr.Abdullah]

Почему то у всех мусульман есть комплекс, что их притесняют, пытаются уничтожить.

А вы это спросите у мусульман Ирака, Афганистана, Палестины. В чем их вина, за что их убивают? Вся мусульманская умма единая семья. Потому-то и "комплекс" у нас такой вот единый.

И делает эффективным оружием в руках тех, кто особо то на этой религии и не заморачивается.
А я и не говорю тут за них. За все придется отвечать и все кто пользуется именем ислама в своих целях тоже ответят, не сомневайтесь в этом. Есть день когда воставржествует абсолютная справедливость.

Демократия это не религия.
Вот вам интересный пример: мусульмане готовы умереть на пути Аллаха, а американцы на пути установления демократии во всем мире, что и доказывают на деле.:D

Это тоже наверное результат учений в которых говорится, что никакой представитель другой религии не сможет быть вам другом.
Мусульмане могут сношатся с представителями других религий без проблем. Вы не поленитесь и почитайте Коран. Не надо тут морочить людям голову.

П.С. Иногда наши глаза нас могут обманывать.
Согласен.

[Black]

И делает эффективным оружием в руках тех, кто особо то на этой религии и не заморачивается. ;)
Демократия это не религия.

1.Религия обещает вечное блаженство, а политические убеждения редко становятся дорогой в рай.
2.Религиозным человек бывает чаще по рождению, а убеждения приходят с возрастом.
3. У демократа, есть разумные аргументы на вопрос "почему ты демократ?". А у религиозных людей, только утверждения, которые зачастую должны приниматься как аксиомы.

Почему то у всех мусульман есть комплекс, что их притесняют, пытаются уничтожить. Это тоже наверное результат учений в которых говорится, что никакой представитель другой религии не сможет быть вам другом. Не ужели не понятно, что даже это утверждение служит на то, что бы мусульмане развивали свои комплексы и сражались со всем не исламским миром, таким образом вызывая неприязнь людей, на которую потом можно ссылаться.

П.С. Иногда наши глаза нас могут обманывать. ;)

Eto tvoi glaza obmanivaet tebya. Ti chto deystvitelno ne videsh chto VO VSEM MIRE musulmani tolko i ZASHISHAYUT SVOIH RODIN. Mojem perechislit vseh mest na zemle gde musulmani srajayutsya - Afganistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Palastin, i tgd. Vse eti strani rodina musulman i oni zashishayut svoih rodin, narodov, semey ot okkupantov. Otkroy glaza poshiree nakonetsto, otkazis ot svoih predubejdeniy protiv musulman i smotri Pravde v glaza i otvet sebe na vopros "Gde eto na Zemle musulmani vedut okkupantsionnie voyni?" - NIGDE! I s kakoy sovestov ti mojesh obvinit musulman vo chto to? Vidno, chto tvoi predubejdenie tak silni, chto oni ne dayut tebe videt ochividniyu Pravdu. Znayu, chto sporit s toboy bezpolezno - no govoryu vse eto, chto bi drugie lyudi ne prinimali tvoyu bredyatinu za istinu.

Vse znayut, chto segodnya vo vsem mire musulmani voyuyet za osvobojdenie svoih zemel (za isklyuchenie nekotorih malenkih konfliktov). Musulmani ne napadayut na drugie strani pod ljivim pridlogom (kak eto delayut samie "demokratichnie" strani mira Amerika i Angliya), no okkupiruyet ih (kak eto delayut Sionisticheskoe gosudarstvo), ne unichtojaet naselenie drugih stran i tgd. A pod kakim znamenim ili predlogom - relegioznim ili natsionalisticheskim ili drugim, eto uje vopros kuda nikto drugoy ne imeet pravo sunut nos. Esli Amerikansti okkupirovali Irak pod ljivim predlogom, Iraksi mojem voevat protiv nih pod lyubim znamenim. I nikto, tem bolee, lyudi kak Izida, ne imeet pravo obsujdat i sudit ih deystvie. Oni zashishayut svoyu rodinu, i imeet pravo polzovatsya lyubim sredstvom. Toje samoe mojno skazat o Palastinsov, kotorie voyuet dlya osvobojdenie svoih Rodin ot sionisticheskih fashistov. Etot spisok mojno prodoljit. NO glavnoe - musulmani nikogo ne atakuet, oni nichego ne nachali pervim. Vse chto oni delayut zashita i konterattaka.

Ti tak predubiditelno otnosis'shya musulmanam, chto kritukuesh ih daje kogda oni vsego lish zashishaet sebya. Trudno predstavit, kakuyu chush mogla bi ti nesti esli bi musulmani menyalis rolami s Amerikansami, Izraelitsyanami, Rossiyey, Kitaem i drugimi gosudarstvami, kotorie otkrito istreblyayut musulman.

Stranno, ti tak negativno otnoshisya musulmanam, kotorie vsego lish zashishayut svoih stran i semey, i nichego plohogo ne govorish o teh, kto celenapravlenno unichtojaet celie narodi i gosudarstv. Dvoynie standardi odnako. Kak ya ranshe skazal, vse eti vashi demonstransi gumannosti - loj'. Vi (ne tol'ko ti) tak hotite spryatat svoyu amoralnuyu lichnost, chto vsyu svoyu energiyu istratte na ocherninie drugih, v nashim sluchae musulman. Vi dimaete, chto esli smojete "dokazat" chto musulmani "chernie prichernie", lyudi budet vosprinimat vas na fone musulman "belinkimi". No, uvi, etim vi obmanivaete tolko sebya. Lyudi, u kotorih golova na pleche, znayut ochen horosho, chto, daje esli musulmani voyuet i ubivaet kogoto, to tol'ko radi zashiti i spasenie samogo sebya, a ne dlya najivki za schet drugih. Tol'ko slepie i lyudi kotorie obmanivaet samogo sebya ne videt ili ne hochet priznat etogo.

[Izida]

Почему то у всех мусульман есть комплекс, что их притесняют, пытаются уничтожить.

А вы это спросите у мусульман Ирака, Афганистана, Палестины. В чем их вина, за что их убивают? Вся мусульманская умма единая семья. Потому-то и "комплекс" у нас такой вот единый.

А я не говорю о мусульманах этих стран, я говорю к примеру о мусульманах Узбекистана. :)


И делает эффективным оружием в руках тех, кто особо то на этой религии и не заморачивается.
А я и не говорю тут за них. За все придется отвечать и все кто пользуется именем ислама в своих целях тоже ответят, не сомневайтесь в этом. Есть день когда воставржествует абсолютная справедливость.

Так ведь религиозные воины, подчиняются таким людям. Насколько я помню в Коране сказано, что мусульмане должны подчинятся своим правителям. Не так ли? То есть они исходя из своих религиозных убеждений подчиняются тем, чья конечная -власть.

Демократия это не религия.
Вот вам интересный пример: мусульмане готовы умереть на пути Аллаха, а американцы на пути установления демократии во всем мире, что и доказывают на деле.:D

Эффективная и правильная демократия вряд ли принесет миру зло. А вот то как понимают это отдельные государства-это уже другой вопрос. Так что думаю, сравнение демократии с религии немного не правильно. Религию, которая основывается на полном подчинении можно сравнить разве, что с монархическим строем. Ведь королей называют помазанниками божьими. :)

Это тоже наверное результат учений в которых говорится, что никакой представитель другой религии не сможет быть вам другом.
Мусульмане могут сношатся с представителями других религий без проблем. Вы не поленитесь и почитайте Коран. Не надо тут морочить людям голову.

Вообще я основывалась на суре из Корана, которую тут не давно привели. Найду этот пост, обязательно поставлю. :D А кто морочит людям голову. Я высказала мнение. А у людей своя голова на плечах, что бы делать выводы.

П.С. Иногда наши глаза нас могут обманывать.
Согласен.

Тогда как же слова, "Я говорю о том, что вижу!". :lol:

[Bukharan]

It is totally contradictory. When you praise someone for doubting one religion (Zoroastrianism) and scold him for questioning another (Islam) you sound just like any other religious bigot or zealot. Salmon the Persian enjoyed an open mind, to you, because he doubted Zoroastrianism. and I am "a blind partizan" because I doubt your Islamic belief.

As stated earlier, I was not born with these views, of course. I reached this stage through studying Islam and other religions. But you have not evolved your in-built views: you came with them and you are trying to find any evidence to back-up 'the truth' you were born with. Anybody who doubt it is a blind infidel.

Therefore, it is me who wishes you to open up your eyes and mind to see things as they are and look for the proofs of your belief instead of reiterating something that has been said centuries ago with no heed to contemporary realities.

No it is not contradictory. Rather when he said "When I saw them (Christians), I liked their prayers and became interested in their matter (religion). I said (to myself), "By Allah, this religion is better than that of ours"

he meant that christianity was better than his previous religion i.e fire worshipping.
and his saying shows that Salman was very open to truth and accepted it when something came across which is better than he thought it was. Unlike you he accepted reality and TRUTH. But problem with you is that you r NOT open to truth and what wanna prove Islam is wrong by ANY means because you already put in ur mind that Islam is wrong.

I hope one day you leave this blindness and bigotted partizanship and OPEN your eyes.

I never said nor called anyone to blindly imitate muslims. Rather I always say the opposite: search for proofs and avoid blind following. I have been like this since I started knowing Islam and will remain like this. Every muslim should have KNOWLEDGE of what they are doing before they are doing. Blind following and doing things without knowledge is of no good to them. and everyone should make sure that knowledge which they have is the correct knowledge and also they understand it correctly.

Sources of Islam: Quran and authentic ahadeeth upon the understanding of Companions of Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. If anyone does not speak with this then they are not giving you knowledge of Islam rather they are giving you just opinions which can be rejected or accepted based on the correctness of the opinion.

[Izida]

Eto tvoi glaza obmanivaet tebya. Ti chto deystvitelno ne videsh chto VO VSEM MIRE musulmani tolko i ZASHISHAYUT SVOIH RODIN. Mojem perechislit vseh mest na zemle gde musulmani srajayutsya - Afganistan, Iraq, Chechnya, Palastin, i tgd. Vse eti strani rodina musulman i oni zashishayut svoih rodin, narodov, semey ot okkupantov. Otkroy glaza poshiree nakonetsto, otkazis ot svoih predubejdeniy protiv musulman i smotri Pravde v glaza i otvet sebe na vopros "Gde eto na Zemle musulmani vedut okkupantsionnie voyni?" - NIGDE! I s kakoy sovestov ti mojesh obvinit musulman vo chto to? Vidno, chto tvoi predubejdenie tak silni, chto oni ne dayut tebe videt ochividniyu Pravdu. Znayu, chto sporit s toboy bezpolezno - no govoryu vse eto, chto bi drugie lyudi ne prinimali tvoyu bredyatinu za istinu.

Vse znayut, chto segodnya vo vsem mire musulmani voyuyet za osvobojdenie svoih zemel (za isklyuchenie nekotorih malenkih konfliktov). Musulmani ne napadayut na drugie strani pod ljivim pridlogom (kak eto delayut samie "demokratichnie" strani mira Amerika i Angliya), no okkupiruyet ih (kak eto delayut Sionisticheskoe gosudarstvo), ne unichtojaet naselenie drugih stran i tgd. A pod kakim znamenim ili predlogom - relegioznim ili natsionalisticheskim ili drugim, eto uje vopros kuda nikto drugoy ne imeet pravo sunut nos. Esli Amerikansti okkupirovali Irak pod ljivim predlogom, Iraksi mojem voevat protiv nih pod lyubim znamenim. I nikto, tem bolee, lyudi kak Izida, ne imeet pravo obsujdat i sudit ih deystvie. Oni zashishayut svoyu rodinu, i imeet pravo polzovatsya lyubim sredstvom. Toje samoe mojno skazat o Palastinsov, kotorie voyuet dlya osvobojdenie svoih Rodin ot sionisticheskih fashistov. Etot spisok mojno prodoljit. NO glavnoe - musulmani nikogo ne atakuet, oni nichego ne nachali pervim. Vse chto oni delayut zashita i konterattaka.

Ti tak predubiditelno otnosis'shya musulmanam, chto kritukuesh ih daje kogda oni vsego lish zashishaet sebya. Trudno predstavit, kakuyu chush mogla bi ti nesti esli bi musulmani menyalis rolami s Amerikansami, Izraelitsyanami, Rossiyey, Kitaem i drugimi gosudarstvami, kotorie otkrito istreblyayut musulman.

Stranno, ti tak negativno otnoshisya musulmanam, kotorie vsego lish zashishayut svoih stran i semey, i nichego plohogo ne govorish o teh, kto celenapravlenno unichtojaet celie narodi i gosudarstv. Dvoynie standardi odnako. Kak ya ranshe skazal, vse eti vashi demonstransi gumannosti - loj'. Vi (ne tol'ko ti) tak hotite spryatat svoyu amoralnuyu lichnost, chto vsyu svoyu energiyu istratte na ocherninie drugih, v nashim sluchae musulman. Vi dimaete, chto esli smojete "dokazat" chto musulmani "chernie prichernie", lyudi budet vosprinimat vas na fone musulman "belinkimi". No, uvi, etim vi obmanivaete tolko sebya. Lyudi, u kotorih golova na pleche, znayut ochen horosho, chto, daje esli musulmani voyuet i ubivaet kogoto, to tol'ko radi zashiti i spasenie samogo sebya, a ne dlya najivki za schet drugih. Tol'ko slepie i lyudi kotorie obmanivaet samogo sebya ne videt ili ne hochet priznat etogo.


Эххх... Блэк, Блэк... Ты говоришь, что я несу чушь, но тем не менее боишься, что люди могут эту чушь воспринять всерьез... Следовательно, на самом деле, где то в глубине сознания своего ты все же понимаешь, что мы возможно не полностью, но все же правы. :D Ты умный, но видимо твоя вера сильна, и ты очень сильно боишься ада. И поэтому пытаешься убедить не столько других в своей правоте, сколько себя самого.

Не стану говорить за других, но меня "беленькой" на фоне "черных" как ты выражаешься редко кто видел. ;) Возможно, некоторые мои убеждения и кажутся на первый взгляд аморальными (возможно, для кого то они и аморальны), но я ведь этого даже не скрываю. Так что о каком лицемерии может идти речь?

Я не отношусь негативно к мусульманам, просто мусульманам иногда надо задаваться вопросом "А зачем я это делаю, и для чего?", а не принимать все что написано как аксиому. Бог дал нам мозг, именно для того, что бы у ас была возможность рассуждать и анализировать. Ты же не будешь отрицать, что такие способности нам дал именно бог. А раз так, значит, он представлял себе, до чего могут довести эти анализы и рассуждения. Так что не надо жалеть мозги, когда дело касается религии. :D

[Mr.Abdullah]

А я не говорю о мусульманах этих стран, я говорю к примеру о мусульманах Узбекистана.
Еще раз повторяю: Мусульмане всего мира - одна семья. Потому ваш ответ не принимается.

Тогда как же слова, "Я говорю о том, что вижу!"
Я имел ввиду, что и ваши глаза могут иногда обманывать вас!

Вообще я основывалась на суре из Корана, которую тут не давно привели. Найду этот пост, обязательно поставлю.
Если вы имеете ввиду это: "И никогда не будут довольны тобой ни иудеи, ни христиане, пока ты не последуешь за их религией" (Сура Бакара, 120-й аят), то этот аят приводил я. Там говорит Аллах, что упрямые иудеи и христиане стоят и будут стоять на своем не подчиняясь последнему пророку Аллаха и не будут довольны тем, что повелевает им Аллах посредством пророка соллалоху алейхи васаллам, и будут им довольны только если он примет их понятия, уверование.

[Bukharan]

According to your belief, Islam should be the only ideology of all human societies of the globe. Do you really think it's any different from Communists' approach? And not only them. All ideologies came to the world with this short-sighted view unaware of their sharp contrast with the real world. The world will never reach a stance of 'univocality'. We will never see 'an incubator society' that you dream of. Human being is a seeker and his mind is too inquisitive to be imprisoned in one cell: be it Islam, Communism, democracy...

And who's given you the right to dictate other people's views and lives? Hafez of Shiraz says: "Айби дигарон бар ту нахоханд набишт..." (Other people's sins would not be attributed to you. Why do you keep yourself worried about them?) You can never impose heaven on people, can you? So keep it private as it is a private matter.

Я говорю о том, что вижу!:twisted::evil::evil:! Может вам это и кажется сказкой средневековой, но я специально сказал что шайтно-материалистическая америка жадно хочет завоевать все. Под разными предлогами. Не говорю, что американцы воюют прикрываясь религией. Не ужели вам невидно, если где-либо закрепляется америка - там распространяется их зараза религия - демократия. И там туго приходится исламу. Ислам в тех странах будет только "в умах". Там никакого шариата не будет и помине. А для мусульман воевать за и религией очень важно. И именно религия дает силу истинным мусульманам в борьбе с врагом.

[Bukharan]

Если вы имеете ввиду это: "И никогда не будут довольны тобой ни иудеи, ни христиане, пока ты не последуешь за их религией" (Сура Бакара, 120-й аят), то этот аят приводил я. Там говорит Аллах, что упрямые иудеи и христиане стоят и будут стоять на своем не подчиняясь последнему пророку Аллаха и не будут довольны тем, что повелевает им Аллах посредством пророка соллалоху алейхи васаллам, и будут им довольны только если он примет их понятия, уверование.

Эту суру приводил и я.

It's another contradiction: how do you explain so many cases of Christians and Jews turning Musliim? Or should we skeptically deny their claims of conversion based on this Qoranic verse?

[Izida]

А я не говорю о мусульманах этих стран, я говорю к примеру о мусульманах Узбекистана.
Еще раз повторяю: Мусульмане всего мира - одна семья. Потому ваш ответ не принимается.

Тогда как же слова, "Я говорю о том, что вижу!"
Я имел ввиду, что и ваши глаза могут иногда обманывать вас!

Вообще я основывалась на суре из Корана, которую тут не давно привели. Найду этот пост, обязательно поставлю.
Если вы имеете ввиду это: "И никогда не будут довольны тобой ни иудеи, ни христиане, пока ты не последуешь за их религией" (Сура Бакара, 120-й аят), то этот аят приводил я. Там говорит Аллах, что упрямые иудеи и христиане стоят и будут стоять на своем не подчиняясь последнему пророку Аллаха и не будут довольны тем, что повелевает им Аллах посредством пророка соллалоху алейхи васаллам, и будут им довольны только если он примет их понятия, уверование.

Не хочу учавствовать еще в одном споре, конечная станция которой является тупиком. ;)

[Black]

Эту суру приводил и я.

It's another contradiction: how do you explain so many cases of Christians and Jews turning Musliim? Or should we skeptically deny their claims of conversion based on this Qoranic verse?

Bukharan, this is not contradiction. Cristians and Jews turning Muslim are not Cristians and Jews any more, thus this ayat is not about them.

[Mr.Abdullah]

[QUOTE=Bukharan;1037216]According to your belief, Islam should be the only ideology of all human societies of the globe.


Да. Да. Да. Мое верование основано на Куране и сунне пророка. А там говорится что ислам единственно приемлемая для Аллаха уверование. «Воистину, религия Аллаха – это Ислам» (Сура "Семейство Имрана", 19) . « От того, кто ищет иную религию помимо ислама, ничего не будет принято, и в будущей жизни он окажется среди потерпевших урон» (Сура «али Имран», аят 85.) Вся жизнь, духовная, политическая, экономическая и все остальное основываются на этом. С точки зрения мусульман после этого остаются только верующие и неверные. Вам этого ответа достаточно? Ваше дело верить в это или нет!

[Mr.Abdullah]

Не хочу учавствовать еще в одном споре, конечная станция которой является тупиком. ;)

Правильно говорите. Согласен. Но оставляю за собой право защищать интересы ислама в качестве рядового мусульманина.

[Bukharan]

Bukharan, this is not contradiction. Cristians and Jews turning Muslim are not Cristians and Jews any more, thus this ayat is not about them.

Black,

Don't tickle me:) Before turning Muslim they were either Christian or Jew, right? Did they follow Muhammad's call? Yes. So, the ayat is missing something in this case. Cuz it says, they will never follow you. As soon as they start following, obviously, they'll convert to Islam and become Muslim. Who becomes Muslim? Christians and Jews. So, it's deeply contradictory.

[Izida]

если все поменять местами и демократы развитых стран примут Ислам, а все мусульмане христианство - и тогда эти войны в таких странах как Афганистан, Иран, Ирак, Таджикистан, Чечня будут продолжаться.
Суть в том что в этих странах человеческая жизнь ничего не стоит.
К перечисленным странам можно смело приплюсовать Россию, Узбекистан, африканские страны, плюс сто других - в этих странах не главенствует Ислам, но человеческие жизни здесь ничего не стоят.
Америка ценит своих граждан и защищает независимо от их религии и бла бла бла.

И в этом виноваты сами люди, чьи жизни не ценят. :rolleyes: Они отдают жизнь, думая что защищают бога и религию, а на самом деле для чьей то власти и обогащения.

[Bukharan]

Я понимаю вас прекрасно и верю в то, что вы говорите. И моя логика исходит из этого же понимания.

Any religion claims to be the ultimate Divine voice and verdict. Christian or Jewish fanatics prove their staunch rigid faith in the same way quoting the Bible or Torah. Тhey think, nothing else would come that could cast shadow of doubt on their religion. This is the words of people of Faith. I realize it.

But what I'm saying is that if the Reason could prevail in these people, we would have lived in a better world. If your Faith could be based on the reason (not vice versa) you could see the world in many beautiful colors, not just darkness of anti-Muslim oppression all around the world. Because the faith on its own keeps your world view restricted and prohibits you from certain kinds of practice. Everything has been proven to you by words of the Qur'an, and you don't see any reason to cross-check those claims. Because you totally believe in them and fullstop. That is the Fullstop to your curiousity and searches. The shroud of the faith veils the eyes of the staunch believer from the real world and prevents him from going further to find out more about the world we live in.



[quote=Bukharan;1037216]According to your belief, Islam should be the only ideology of all human societies of the globe.


Да. Да. Да. Мое верование основано на Куране и сунне пророка. А там говорится что ислам единственно приемлемая для Аллаха уверование. «Воистину, религия Аллаха – это Ислам» (Сура "Семейство Имрана", 19) . « От того, кто ищет иную религию помимо ислама, ничего не будет принято, и в будущей жизни он окажется среди потерпевших урон» (Сура «али Имран», аят 85.) Вся жизнь, духовная, политическая, экономическая и все остальное основываются на этом. С точки зрения мусульман после этого остаются только верующие и неверные. Вам этого ответа достаточно? Ваше дело верить в это или нет!

[Mr.Abdullah]

Any religion claims to be the ultimate Divine voice and verdict. Christian or Jewish fanatics prove their staunch rigid faith in the same way quoting the Bible or Torah. Тhey think, nothing else would come that could cast shadow of doubt on their religion. This is the words of people of Faith. I realize it.

Ислам пришел после этих религий. Иудеи говорят что у них религия самая правильная и не признают христиан. Христиане не признают мусульман. Мусульмане признают и тех и других. Разницу чувствуете? Представителям всех трех религий известно, что Аллах время от времени посылает на землю своих посланцев, чтобы люди, отошедшие от истинного пути возвращались к единой вере в Аллаха. Никто из них не отрицает этого. Пришел Моисей (мир ему), пришел Иисус (мир ему), и в конце пришел Мухаммад (мир и благословение ему). Им были даны книги (откровения) и в тех книгах Аллах говорил, что до них он отправлял и отправляет своих пророков на землю. Иудеи и христиане тоже знают и верят в это. Но в книгах в их книгах не говорилось, что пришедший пророк является последним. А в Коране дается понять, что Аллах на этом завершает усовершенствование своей религии. «Сегодня Я завершил для вас вашу религию, довёл до конца милость Свою и одобрил для вас ислам в качестве религии.» “Трапеза”, 3. Для мыслящих людей этого достаточно чтобы понять, что после этого не будет пророков Аллаха. Чстно говоря я слаб для ведения таких дискуссий, не могу сполна передать то что думаю. Потому на счет дебатов между религиями я бы посоветовал посмотреть дискуссии ученных. Особенно порекомендовал бы брата Ахмада Дидата.

[Izida]

Any religion claims to be the ultimate Divine voice and verdict. Christian or Jewish fanatics prove their staunch rigid faith in the same way quoting the Bible or Torah. Тhey think, nothing else would come that could cast shadow of doubt on their religion. This is the words of people of Faith. I realize it.

Ислам пришел после этих религий. Иудеи говорят что у них религия самая правильная и не признают христиан. Христиане не признают мусульман. Мусульмане признают и тех и других. Разницу чувствуете? Представителям всех трех религий известно, что Аллах время от времени посылает на землю своих посланцев, чтобы люди, отошедшие от истинного пути возвращались к единой вере в Аллаха. Никто из них не отрицает этого. Пришел Моисей (мир ему), пришел Иисус (мир ему), и в конце пришел Мухаммад (мир и благословение ему). Им были даны книги (откровения) и в тех книгах Аллах говорил, что до них он отправлял и отправляет своих пророков на землю. Иудеи и христиане тоже знают и верят в это. Но в книгах в их книгах не говорилось, что пришедший пророк является последним. А в Коране дается понять, что Аллах на этом завершает усовершенствование своей религии. «Сегодня Я завершил для вас вашу религию, довёл до конца милость Свою и одобрил для вас ислам в качестве религии.» “Трапеза”, 3. Для мыслящих людей этого достаточно чтобы понять, что после этого не будет пророков Аллаха. Чстно говоря я слаб для ведения таких дискуссий, не могу сполна передать то что думаю. Потому на счет дебатов между религиями я бы посоветовал посмотреть дискуссии ученных. Особенно порекомендовал бы брата Ахмада Дидата.


Видимо Иисус и Моисей не были так сильны в психологии людей и в политике как Мухаммад. :)

[Bukharan]

Ислам пришел после этих религий. Иудеи говорят что у них религия самая правильная и не признают христиан. Христиане не признают мусульман. Мусульмане признают и тех и других. Разницу чувствуете?

Да. Ещё как. А про причину этого странного обстоятельства вы когда-нибудь думали?

Jews don't recognize Christians and Muslims, because they predate both. Christians recognize Jews only, because they came after the first Semitic religion of the world, but the third Semitic religion (Islam) came centuries after Christianity. That's why they don't feel obliged to recognize Islam at all. Islam, as the third Semitic religion, recognizes both previous ones. Because it is the youngest among the three and needed to do so in order to gain certain legitimacy. As simple as that. They are three rings of the same chain.

Представителям всех трех религий известно, что Аллах время от времени посылает на землю своих посланцев, чтобы люди, отошедшие от истинного пути возвращались к единой вере в Аллаха. Никто из них не отрицает этого. Пришел Моисей (мир ему), пришел Иисус (мир ему), и в конце пришел Мухаммад (мир и благословение ему). Им были даны книги (откровения) и в тех книгах Аллах говорил, что до них он отправлял и отправляет своих пророков на землю. Иудеи и христиане тоже знают и верят в это. Но в книгах в их книгах не говорилось, что пришедший пророк является последним. А в Коране дается понять, что Аллах на этом завершает усовершенствование своей религии. «Сегодня Я завершил для вас вашу религию, довёл до конца милость Свою и одобрил для вас ислам в качестве религии.» ”Трапеза”, 3. Для мыслящих людей этого достаточно чтобы понять, что после этого не будет пророков Аллаха. Чстно говоря я слаб для ведения таких дискуссий, не могу сполна передать то что думаю. Потому на счет дебатов между религиями я бы посоветовал посмотреть дискуссии ученных. Особенно порекомендовал бы брата Ахмада Дидата.

We are well aware about a historic personality called Mohammad (Muhammed, Magamet, Muhammad...), the prophet of Islam. He lived in our world and there is no doubt in it. However, there are many doubts about Moses and Jesus Christ. Especially the latter's case has been scrutinized and explained by me in other threads (dedicated to Christianity. I proved to our staunch Christian missioner that he was spreading a Greek/Persian mythology of Mithra/Dionysus. It's been well studied and more books are being published about it).

Islam calls Mohammad 'khatam-ul-anbia' indeed. But by no means you can call Islam the last religion of humanity. Many other religions and prophets appeared after him. The most important new religion is Bahaism which appeared in Iran (in the 19th century). Of course, devout Muslims did not accept them and still prosecute them in Iran. But they migrated abroad and succeeded to grow so fast that it has outnumbered followers of many older religions so far. Bahais could be found in any country of the world. How can you explain to them that their religion is false? Based on what? Qur'an? They would tell you, "it is your belief that differs from mine. We believe, there were many more prophets after Muhammad". How would you prove them wrong? Again based on Qur'an? But they won't accept it at all.

That's why I am saying, it's better to base your Belief on Reason. That would make you stronger even in religious debates.

[Mr.Abdullah]

Видимо Иисус и Моисей не были так сильны в психологии людей и в политике как Мухаммад. :)

Знаете Изида, ну не знаю, можете посчитать это за рекламу ислама, в частности Мухаммада, но тем не менее я недавно прочитал книгу-энциклопедию толи американского, толи британского писателя Майкла Харта под названием 100 великих людей. И там он постарался создать список величайших людей оставивших след в истории человечества. и я удивился, тому что на первой строке оказался Мухаммад росулуллох. Вроде это не заказная книга, он не мусульманин и говорит, что лично для него Иисус важнее Мухаммада. Вот его слова: Ярким примером тому может служить биография Магоме-та, помещенная прежде жизнеописания Христа, так как, по моему убеждению, Магомет оказал большее личное влияние на создание ислама, нежели Христос - на создание христианства. Это, конечно, не значит, что лично для меня Магомет более велик, чем Иисус.

Вот еще: То, что Магомет стоит на первом месте в моем перечне самых влиятельных исторических лиц, может удивить одних читателей, а у других вызовет возражения. Однако это единственный человек в истории, чья деятельность была чрезвычайно успешной и в религиозной, и в светской областях Магомет, человек низкого социального происхождения, стал основателем одной из великих мировых религий и политическим лидером, добившимся необычайных успехов. И сегодня,
спустя тринадцать столетий после его смерти, влияние в мире его свершений остается необычайно мощным. Большинство персонажей этой книги имели то преимущество, что они родились и воспитывались в центрах культуры, жили среди цивилизованных народов, игравших ключевую роль в истории.

Интересная книга. Рекомендую. И еще раз повторяю, это мнение лично автора. Вот прямая ссылка для скачивания книги: http://librus.info/lib/encicl/100Ludey.rar Весит 214 килобайтов.

[Bukharan]

Я согласен с Хартом на счет Мухаммада. Он был неординарной личностью, которому удалось повлиять на несколько следующих столетий и почти на весь мир. В этом нет сомнения.

Но все учения должны быть взвешаны умом и разумом. По-моему, многое из его учений принадлежит средневековью, и многое можно применять и в настоящей жизни.

Знаете Изида, ну не знаю, можете посчитать это за рекламу ислама, в частности Мухаммада, но тем не менее я недавно прочитал книгу-энциклопедию толи американского, толи британского писателя Майкла Харта под названием 100 великих людей. И там он постарался создать список величайших людей оставивших след в истории человечества. и я удивился, тому что на первой строке оказался Мухаммад росулуллох. Вроде это не заказная книга, он не мусульманин и говорит, что лично для него Иисус важнее Мухаммада. Вот его слова: Ярким примером тому может служить биография Магоме-та, помещенная прежде жизнеописания Христа, так как, по моему убеждению, Магомет оказал большее личное влияние на создание ислама, нежели Христос - на создание христианства. Это, конечно, не значит, что лично для меня Магомет более велик, чем Иисус.

Вот еще: То, что Магомет стоит на первом месте в моем перечне самых влиятельных исторических лиц, может удивить одних читателей, а у других вызовет возражения. Однако это единственный человек в истории, чья деятельность была чрезвычайно успешной и в религиозной, и в светской областях Магомет, человек низкого социального происхождения, стал основателем одной из великих мировых религий и политическим лидером, добившимся необычайных успехов. И сегодня,
спустя тринадцать столетий после его смерти, влияние в мире его свершений остается необычайно мощным. Большинство персонажей этой книги имели то преимущество, что они родились и воспитывались в центрах культуры, жили среди цивилизованных народов, игравших ключевую роль в истории.

Интересная книга. Рекомендую. И еще раз повторяю, это мнение лично автора. Вот прямая ссылка для скачивания книги: http://librus.info/lib/encicl/100Ludey.rar Весит 214 килобайтов.

[Mr.Abdullah]

По-моему, многое из его учений принадлежит средневековью, и многое можно применять и в настоящей жизни.

:D Ну вы брат, воспользуюсь вашим же оружием и отвечу, что мусульмане ни за что не примут ваши мнения, в том случае если вы будете утверждать что учение Мухаммада нужно реформировать.

[Bukharan]

:D Ну вы брат, воспользуюсь вашим же оружием и отвечу, что мусульмане ни за что не примут ваши мнения, в том случае если вы будете утверждать что учение Мухаммада нужно реформировать.

:D
That wasn't my tool bro. That's the tool of deeply religious people: they do not accept anything beyond the word of their own religion. But when you come out of all these quarrels and look from aside, you can see how pitiful the fight is. Everybody is looking for the same destination through different ways and swearing at, beating and killing the others that do not agree with their directives to the final destination. Such a shame in our epoch.

I would accept your claims, only if they are logical and acceptable by my reason (not by any religious dogma).

[Mr.Abdullah]

:D
That wasn't my tool bro. That's the tool of deeply religious people: they do not accept anything beyond the word of their own religion. But when you come out of all these quarrels and look from aside, you can see how pitiful the fight is. Everybody is looking for the same destination through different ways and swearing at, beating and killing the others that do not agree with their directives to the final destination. Such a shame in our epoch.

I would accept your claims, only if they are logical and acceptable by my reason (not by any religious dogma).

Предлагаю перемирие! Эту тему можно обсуждать бесконечно, я как мусульманин уверен, что вердикт на наши споры мы получим у Господа нашего и надеюсь, что мы не будем из потерявших надежду. И в конце я бы хотел привести аяты из Корана. «Призывай, [о Мухаммад,] на путь Господа мудростью и добрым увещеванием и веди спор с многобожниками наилучшими средствами. Воистину, твой Господь лучше знает тех, кто сошел с Его пути, и Он лучше знает тех, кто на прямом пути» (Сура «Пчелы», аят 125) И дай Аллах нам сил и знания чтобы призывать людей к тебе ибо у тебя справедливость и к тебе наше возвращение. «Чья речь прекраснее, чем у того, кто призывает к Аллаху, совершает благие дела и говорит: “Воистину, я - один из мусульман”?!» (Сура «Разъяснены», аят 33)
Позволь нам Аллах следовать твоим наставлениям и быть счастливым в обеих мирах.

[Izida]

Знаете Изида, ну не знаю, можете посчитать это за рекламу ислама, в частности Мухаммада, но тем не менее я недавно прочитал книгу-энциклопедию толи американского, толи британского писателя Майкла Харта под названием 100 великих людей. И там он постарался создать список величайших людей оставивших след в истории человечества. и я удивился, тому что на первой строке оказался Мухаммад росулуллох. Вроде это не заказная книга, он не мусульманин и говорит, что лично для него Иисус важнее Мухаммада. Вот его слова: Ярким примером тому может служить биография Магоме-та, помещенная прежде жизнеописания Христа, так как, по моему убеждению, Магомет оказал большее личное влияние на создание ислама, нежели Христос - на создание христианства. Это, конечно, не значит, что лично для меня Магомет более велик, чем Иисус.

Вот еще: То, что Магомет стоит на первом месте в моем перечне самых влиятельных исторических лиц, может удивить одних читателей, а у других вызовет возражения. Однако это единственный человек в истории, чья деятельность была чрезвычайно успешной и в религиозной, и в светской областях Магомет, человек низкого социального происхождения, стал основателем одной из великих мировых религий и политическим лидером, добившимся необычайных успехов. И сегодня,
спустя тринадцать столетий после его смерти, влияние в мире его свершений остается необычайно мощным. Большинство персонажей этой книги имели то преимущество, что они родились и воспитывались в центрах культуры, жили среди цивилизованных народов, игравших ключевую роль в истории.

Интересная книга. Рекомендую. И еще раз повторяю, это мнение лично автора. Вот прямая ссылка для скачивания книги: http://librus.info/lib/encicl/100Ludey.rar Весит 214 килобайтов.

Он не говорит, что важнее, он говорит о вкладе в развитие той или иной религии, которую они проповедовали. ;)

Я и не отрицаю, что Магомет велик. Но ведь это не значит, что все его учения (или то что принимают за его учения) правильные.

Возьмем пример: Наполеон-он тоже велик. Так как оставил глубокий след в истории человечества. Но ведь никто не станет утверждать, что он должен быть причислен к лику святых?

В мире много великих людей. Но их величие нельзя воспринимать как факт того, что они проповедовали правильное убеждение. Будда тоже был велик, Иисус, Моисей, и много других. Кто то из них больше, а кто то меньше. :D

Даже Гитлера можно назвать великим, ведь не каждому удасться вести столько людей за собой. Он тоже оставил глубокий след в истории. Но ведь это не значит, что он был прав верно?

[Mr.Abdullah]

Он не говорит, что важнее, он говорит о вкладе в развитие той или иной религии, которую они проповедовали. ;)

Я и не отрицаю, что Магомет велик. Но ведь это не значит, что все его учения (или то что принимают за его учения) правильные.

Возьмем пример: Наполеон-он тоже велик. Так как оставил глубокий след в истории человечества. Но ведь никто не станет утверждать, что он должен быть причислен к лику святых?

В мире много великих людей. Но их величие нельзя воспринимать как факт того, что они проповедовали правильное убеждение. Будда тоже был велик, Иисус, Моисей, и много других. Кто то из них больше, а кто то меньше. :D

Даже Гитлера можно назвать великим, ведь не каждому удасться вести столько людей за собой. Он тоже оставил глубокий след в истории. Но ведь это не значит, что он был прав верно?

Все, все, все. Не спорю, не спорю. Я ничего не утвеждал, а лишь предложил вам ознакомться. :uups:

[Bukharan]

I accept your suggestion and want to finish the debate with a couple of quotes from Avicenna (Ibn Sino)'s immortal writings:

"The knowledge of anything, since all things have causes, is not acquired or complete unless it is known by its causes."

"The world is divided into men who have wit and no religion and men who have religion and no wit."

It's been said over a thousand years ago, but still compatible with our world.

Предлагаю перемирие! Эту тему можно обсуждать бесконечно, я как мусульманин уверен, что вердикт на наши споры мы получим у Господа нашего и надеюсь, что мы не будем из потерявших надежду. И в конце я бы хотел привести аяты из Корана. «Призывай, [о Мухаммад,] на путь Господа мудростью и добрым увещеванием и веди спор с многобожниками наилучшими средствами. Воистину, твой Господь лучше знает тех, кто сошел с Его пути, и Он лучше знает тех, кто на прямом пути» (Сура «Пчелы», аят 125) И дай Аллах нам сил и знания чтобы призывать людей к тебе ибо у тебя справедливость и к тебе наше возвращение. «Чья речь прекраснее, чем у того, кто призывает к Аллаху, совершает благие дела и говорит: ”Воистину, я - один из мусульман”?!» (Сура «Разъяснены», аят 33)
Позволь нам Аллах следовать твоим наставлениям и быть счастливым в обеих мирах.

[Lovelylady]

i don't know why i turn to islam, i found peace, yes i don't know a lot of things about islam or i haven't read quran as whole , but i read it partly , but when i pray to god i feel that i found something that i was looking for. I don't care what people say about my religion or question but important thing is my religion makes who I am and gives a hope and answers all teh questions that i have in my mind
lead to the right path

[uzigabek.net]

Well, you see there are too many people in this world and all of them are different. There is a misunderstanding. For example, I have my own opinion and I am not agree with someone, though sometimes he is right. Here is a misunderstanding.

[sakura]

People fight and argue about something even they don't know about it.
People can fight without knowing truth but with their imaginations and prejudice.

So, I hope everybody try to learn and know the fact before they fight and argue. And, I wanna strongly recommend people who are believing in islam to read whole the Qur'an. Know the Qur'an first, and then you'll see what you need to see, listen, argue and believe. After you finish to read the Qur'an, read Bible and so on... You'll see the difference between them and, you will be able to tell the truth. I want poeple to stop arguing what people don't know. The Qur'an also says... don't argue if you have no idea about it... or something close meaning to that.

(I hope my English is good enough to let forumers to understand my opinion...)

[Bukharan]

I wish you all the best in your new pursuit Lovelylady, if that's what makes you happy. As long as it remains private and personal.

i don't know why i turn to islam, i found peace, yes i don't know a lot of things about islam or i haven't read quran as whole , but i read it partly , but when i pray to god i feel that i found something that i was looking for. I don't care what people say about my religion or question but important thing is my religion makes who I am and gives a hope and answers all teh questions that i have in my mind
lead to the right path

[Don Corleone]

If I am not mistaken, the original purpose of this thread was to call for all people to peaceful coexistence despite various religioous affiliations. Moreover, what we are witnessing here is nothing short of showering accusation over one and another user.
If we, the people of one country (I hope most user of this thread are from Uzbekistan, including even Ms. or Mrs. (whichever) Izida and Mr. Bukharan), cannot agree on some pioints, is it logical for us to expect the whole world living in peace?

Whether you r atheist or devout, may God bless you all,

[Bukharan]

That's a perfect dream that could be achievable if even positions like those of Ms or Mrs Izida and Mr Bukharan could be tolerated along with all ordinary positions. And if people stop imposing their views on others. As I said earlier, everything is fine until it remains private and personal. As soon as it starts creeping out of a person and threatening individual freedom of mind it should be rebuffed and contained.

If I am not mistaken, the original purpose of this thread was to call for all people to peaceful coexistence despite various religioous affiliations. Moreover, what we are witnessing here is nothing short of showering accusation over one and another user.
If we, the people of one country (I hope most user of this thread are from Uzbekistan, including even Ms. or Mrs. (whichever) Izida and Mr. Bukharan), cannot agree on some pioints, is it logical for us to expect the whole world living in peace?

Whether you r atheist or devout, may God bless you all,

[Qoloq]

Ok guys after reading a lot of topics i have question why everyone fights over religion if you guys believe to certain things and i don't it is my problem, and why some people are offending other people's religion, christinaity right islam is wrong what is that? If you believe to one religion and if you find a peace in ur soul by believing to it leave everyone alone and live ahppy ever after. there are so many wars happneed because of religion, it is 21 century and why can't we create peaceful life?

Awesome, never give up demanding that some semblance of respect should be had in all your dealings. And if by your own actions you can't infect the rest of the world with your view, at least you will be what you desire to see in others. Seriously, If a dog barks, will you bark back? There are people who are genuinely interested in learning and discussing topics with you, and there are those who only wish to spread discord. You may not be able to pin them down with words, but you can with silence. An argument can't happen unless both persons are participating. If you have answered the questions of an individual to the best that your knowledge and sabr will allow and still the other person reacts with disrespect and obtuseness, its perfectly fine to say "to you, yours, to me, mine" and walk away...you lose nothing by doing this.

If Islam was supposed to be the only way of life for all peoples, Allah Jaan would have made it so. Since He did not, who are we to fight? Make dawah, and focus on strengthening your Imaan, the only power you have is over your own actions. The rest will fall into place exactly as Allah wills it, InshaAllah.



Surah 109
Al-Kafirún (The Unbelievers)

Bismillaah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem
Qul yaa ayyuhal kaafiruun
Laa 'abudu maa t'abuduun
Walaa antum 'aabidunna maa a'abud
Walaa ana 'aabidun maa 'abadttum
Walaa antum 'aabiduuna maa a'abud
Lakmu deenukum wa liya deen

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Say: Oh you who turn away
I do not worship what you worship,
nor do you worship what I worship.
And I will not worship what you worship,
Nor will you worship what I worship.
Your way is yours, and my way is mine.


btw: I absolutely love the quote in your siggy.

[Mr.Abdullah]

Awesome, never give up demanding that some semblance of respect should be had in all your dealings. And if by your own actions you can't infect the rest of the world with your view, at least you will be what you desire to see in others. Seriously, If a dog barks, will you bark back? There are people who are genuinely interested in learning and discussing topics with you, and there are those who only wish to spread discord. You may not be able to pin them down with words, but you can with silence. An argument can't happen unless both persons are participating. If you have answered the questions of an individual to the best that your knowledge and sabr will allow and still the other person reacts with disrespect and obtuseness, its perfectly fine to say "to you, yours, to me, mine" and walk away...you lose nothing by doing this.

If Islam was supposed to be the only way of life for all peoples, Allahjan would have made it so. Since He did not, who are we to fight? Make dawah, and focus on strengthening your Imaan, the only power you have is over your own actions. The rest will fall into place exactly as Allah wills it, InshaAllah.



Surah 109
Al-Kafirún (The Unbelievers)

Bismillaah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem
Qul yaa ayyuhal kaafiruun
Laa 'abudu maa t'abuduun
Walaa antum 'aabidunna maa a'abud
Walaa ana 'aabidun maa 'abadttum
Walaa antum 'aabiduuna maa a'abud
Lakmu deenukum wa liya deen

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Say: Oh you who turn away
I do not worship what you worship,
nor do you worship what I worship.
And I will not worship what you worship,
Nor will you worship what I worship.
Your way is yours, and my way is mine.


btw: I absolutely love the quote in your siggy.

If you are a muslim (or not), please correct the word that I highlighted. It is not fun to give different names to Allah except that He has mentioned in Holy Book. :?

[Qoloq]

If you are a muslim (or not), please correct the word that I highlighted. It is not fun to give different names to Allah except that He has mentioned in Holy Book. :?
shukr Alhamdulilah I am a Muslim.

"Jan" or "Jaan" means "Dear" I've placed a space between the words for purposes of clarity...it simply reads "Dear God."

[AbdurRahman]

It is totally contradictory. When you praise someone for doubting one religion (Zoroastrianism) and scold him for questioning another (Islam) you sound just like any other religious bigot or zealot. Salmon the Persian enjoyed an open mind, to you, because he doubted Zoroastrianism. and I am "a blind partizan" because I doubt your Islamic belief.

As stated earlier, I was not born with these views, of course. I reached this stage through studying Islam and other religions. But you have not evolved your in-built views: you came with them and you are trying to find any evidence to back-up 'the truth' you were born with. Anybody who doubt it is a blind infidel.

Therefore, it is me who wishes you to open up your eyes and mind to see things as they are and look for the proofs of your belief instead of reiterating something that has been said centuries ago with no heed to contemporary realities.

If you want to question Islam then go ahead. Point problem , I repeat again, is with YOU. You will not change anything in your mind untill we say YES to all what you say about Islam.

I would not mind you ask questions about Islam at all. But problem is WHY do you want to show totally different "islam" to people than what it is?

You claim maany things about Islam in this forum and here muslims have been saying to you that "NO it is wrong, but it is like that", however you still insist on your view about Islam. That shows you are yourself bigotted blind partizan, not we.

You are doubting about Islamic belief because you have totally different understanding of Islam, that is why muslims have been rejecting your view. If your view of Islam was the same as muslims view then we would never oppose you.

You have to put in your mind that Islam is understood by Quran and authentic ahadeeth upon the understanding of companions of Muhammad peace be upon him. If ANYONE does not speak with this then he is not really explaining you what Islam is, rather he is telling you his own opinion. and that opinion might be wrong or right.

I did not live with these views in the beginning of my life. I studied religions also and I am not blind. Once upon a time, I used to have idea of making my own religion etc...

So if you think ONLY those who are born and lived with such views can accept and practice Islam then you are totally wrong.

Also look example of Salman Al Farsi, how many religions he entered into but at the end became great muslim in History.

You always talk about proofs, but you have NO proof against Islam at all. Even you cannot write with proper logic and understanding never mind talking about Islam-

Time for you is to grow up and look more into other proofs, rather than being prisoned by your own limited mind.

Br,

Abdurrahman.

[Bukharan]

AbdurRahman,

But you were born with this belief in your heart and tried to foster and strengthen your faith later. Have you ever tried to question Islamic dogmas? That would have made you a seeker. If you could reach Islam through 'shakk' (doubt) and questions and end up finding your answers in Qoran only... Then you could have understood what I mean. Now it's useless to talk to you, because nothing will break through that thick iron wall of yours.

I'll be happy to answer to any questions you have about my views on Islam.

Cheers,
Bukharan

If you want to question Islam then go ahead. Point problem , I repeat again, is with YOU. You will not change anything in your mind untill we say YES to all what you say about Islam.

I would not mind you ask questions about Islam at all. But problem is WHY do you want to show totally different "islam" to people than what it is?

You claim maany things about Islam in this forum and here muslims have been saying to you that "NO it is wrong, but it is like that", however you still insist on your view about Islam. That shows you are yourself bigotted blind partizan, not we.

You are doubting about Islamic belief because you have totally different understanding of Islam, that is why muslims have been rejecting your view. If your view of Islam was the same as muslims view then we would never oppose you.

You have to put in your mind that Islam is understood by Quran and authentic ahadeeth upon the understanding of companions of Muhammad peace be upon him. If ANYONE does not speak with this then he is not really explaining you what Islam is, rather he is telling you his own opinion. and that opinion might be wrong or right.

I did not live with these views in the beginning of my life. I studied religions also and I am not blind. Once upon a time, I used to have idea of making my own religion etc...

So if you think ONLY those who are born and lived with such views can accept and practice Islam then you are totally wrong.

Also look example of Salman Al Farsi, how many religions he entered into but at the end became great muslim in History.

You always talk about proofs, but you have NO proof against Islam at all. Even you cannot write with proper logic and understanding never mind talking about Islam-

Time for you is to grow up and look more into other proofs, rather than being prisoned by your own limited mind.

Br,

Abdurrahman.

[Black]

.....
If Islam was supposed to be the only way of life for all peoples, Allah Jaan would have made it so. Since He did not, who are we to fight? Make dawah, and focus on strengthening your Imaan, the only power you have is over your own actions. The rest will fall into place exactly as Allah wills it, InshaAllah....

Islam is not the only way of life in Earth, in fact there are many of them. But, the thing is that, Islam is the only way of life (i.e. Din) with which He is pleased of and of which He will accept. And you are wrong saying that "Allah would have made to it so", because He already made it so, by saying in Qur'an (meaning) "Islam is the only way of life with which Allah is pleased of", full stop. But, one can ask, "then why is there so many other ways of lifes?". Because, this is the purpose of the life of human being - being tested. Allah says (meaning) "If I wanted, I would have made everybody a muslim". It is easy for Him to make everyone follow Islam, but then our presense in this world would have lost its meanning. It would have been meanningless to live in this world like a robot. So, He gave us free will and mind to choose what (way of life) we like and then answer for that choice. In short, the fact that there are other ways of life than Islam and other people than muslims in no way means that Islam is not the only way of life with which Allah is pleased of.

[AbdurRahman]

AbdurRahman,

But you were born with this belief in your heart and tried to foster and strengthen your faith later. Have you ever tried top question Islamic dogmas? That would have made you a seeker. If you could reach Islam through 'shakk' (doubt) and questions and end up finding your answers in Qoran only... Then you could have understood what I mean. Now it's useless to talk to you, because nothing will break through that thick iron wall of yours.

I'll be happy to answer to any questions you have about my views on Islam.

Cheers,
Bukharan

I tell you that our prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam told us that EVERY child is born upon this natural inclication towards The Creator, however their parents change them from their inclination into other false religions which teach to worship other than this Creator.

So in this sense, you are also born in this state , however later you have changed. I hope you will return back to your own natural inclination.

When I had idea of making my own religion, I did not have such kind of belief I have now. Then I looked into religions and studied them, researched them. I mainly concentrated on the core issue. i.e issue of Creed.

You always claim that finding answers in Quran ONLY. Islamic revelation is not only Qur'aan, but also authentic ahadeeth. That is where you are confused. You are trying to understand Qur'aan based on your own views, but like I said before, try to look HOW Quran is understood correctly i.e How did Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam understood, HOW did his companions understood?

Then you will find the correct understanding of Islam, because Islam reached us through these people, and we supposed to understand Islam the way they have understood it and practice like they have practiced.

In any subject, let's take math. If you truely want to learn math and understand it then you dont use your own opinions which are not based on any rules of math, rather you look into math rules itself then understand it.

This is very simple way to learn ANYTHING. and that is the fastest way. The way you have chosen is way to confusion and that is why you are confused abt many things and "hitting" your head to walls now.

I think you should study how to learn things in proper and correct way.

Br,

Abdurrahman.

[Qoloq]

Islam is not the only way of life in Earth, in fact there are many of them. But, the thing is that, Islam is the only way of life (i.e. Din) with which He is pleased of and of which He will accept. And you are wrong saying that "Allah would have made to it so", because He already made it so, by saying in Qur'an (meaning) "Islam is the only way of life with which Allah is pleased of", full stop. But, one can ask, "then why is there so many other ways of lifes?". Because, this is the purpose of the life of human being - being tested. Allah says (meaning) "If I wanted, I would have made everybody a muslim". It is easy for Him to make everyone follow Islam, but then our presense in this world would have lost its meanning. It would have been meanningless to live in this world like a robot. So, He gave us free will and mind to choose what (way of life) we like and then answer for that choice. In short, the fact that there are other ways of life than Islam and other people than muslims in no way means that Islam is not the only way of life with which Allah is pleased of.

There is no argument here, since your statement supports what I wrote. For purpose of clarity: there is a difference between saying “Islam is the only way of life” full stop and saying “Islam is the only way of life with which Allah is pleased with.” When I wrote If Islam was supposed to be the only way of life for all peoples, Allah Jaan would have made it so. I obviously meant the former. We are placed on Earth to please God. Alhamdulilah Islam is the only way of life for me, it is the only one that makes sense to me...and I feel blessed for Allah's Mercy. The one's that Allah has chosen to put blinders on or keep in ignorance, neither you nor I can help. Reward, as well as punishment, comes from Allah alone. There is no hud punishment for not being a Muslim and there is no compulsion. Make dawah, strengthen your Imaan and keep on trucking. Allah knows best.

[Bukharan]

I am well-aware of ahadeeth as well, AbdurRahman. I'm sure you would have praised me a lot for my knowledge of Islam, had I supported you from the very beginning. But as I said before, I came to this conclusion after getting familiarized with Islam, that's Qur'aan and Ahadeeth altogether. Some basic issues remained unresolved. For instance, a verdict about beating your wife (that's a final step of repremanding your wife, of course), killing a lesbie and just beating a gay until his remorse and many other contradictory issues that don't make sense to me and could not be taken as the Creator's words by me. Why should I beat my own spouse? Why a gay man should be spared and a lesbie woman should be put to death?..

I do believe in God and I accept Qur'aan as an attempt by mortal beings to approach him, as other holly books. That natural inclination to God is still within me and getting stronger day by day. And that feeling stands much higher than pretentious piety that I see around myself. I simply believe that God is not as banal and at times cruel as some people think. Most people's imagination about God is humanized. While to me it sounds absurd. Sorry for being so blunt.



I tell you that our prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam told us that EVERY child is born upon this natural inclication towards The Creator, however their parents change them from their inclination into other false religions which teach to worship other than this Creator.

So in this sense, you are also born in this state , however later you have changed. I hope you will return back to your own natural inclination.

When I had idea of making my own religion, I did not have such kind of belief I have now. Then I looked into religions and studied them, researched them. I mainly concentrated on the core issue. i.e issue of Creed.

You always claim that finding answers in Quran ONLY. Islamic revelation is not only Qur'aan, but also authentic ahadeeth. That is where you are confused. You are trying to understand Qur'aan based on your own views, but like I said before, try to look HOW Quran is understood correctly i.e How did Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam understood, HOW did his companions understood?

Then you will find the correct understanding of Islam, because Islam reached us through these people, and we supposed to understand Islam the way they have understood it and practice like they have practiced.

In any subject, let's take math. If you truely want to learn math and understand it then you dont use your own opinions which are not based on any rules of math, rather you look into math rules itself then understand it.

This is very simple way to learn ANYTHING. and that is the fastest way. The way you have chosen is way to confusion and that is why you are confused abt many things and "hitting" your head to walls now.

I think you should study how to learn things in proper and correct way.

Br,

Abdurrahman.

[AbdurRahman]

I am well-aware of ahadeeth as well, AbdurRahman. I'm sure you would have praised me a lot for my knowledge of Islam, had I supported you from the very beginning. But as I said before, I came to this conclusion after getting familiarized with Islam, that's Qur'aan and Ahadeeth altogether. Some basic issues remained unresolved. For instance, a verdict about beating your wife (that's a final step of repremanding your wife, of course), killing a lesbie and just beating a gay until his remorse and many other contradictory issues that don't make sense to me and could not be taken as the Creator's words by me. Why should I beat my own spouse? Why a gay man should be spared and a lesbie woman should be put to death?..

I do believe in God and I accept Qur'aan as an attempt by mortal beings to approach him, as other holly books. That natural inclination to God is still within me and getting stronger day by day. And that feeling stands much higher than pretentious piety that I see around myself. I simply believe that God is not as banal and at times cruel as some people think. Most people's imagination about God is humanized. While to me it sounds absurd. Sorry for being so blunt.


Hi Bukharan.

Thanks for your post and expressing your views.

Like I said, you are not trying to understand Islam with Quran and ahadeeth TOGETHER. But even if u r considering ahadeeth you are SEPERATING them. But if you truely want to understand then you have to take them TOGETHER:

Let's take abt his wife "beating", how this "beating" is understood and explained and practiced by Muhammad peace be upon him and his companions? Did you try to look into how Muhammad peace be upon him treated his wives? Because if "beating" is meant to be the way you have understood then Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and his companions would have practice it accordingly in the first place.

Ok, concerning issue of gay and lesbians, you have to bring me from where you got such information? i mean abt this penalty for them.

In general, if there is certain penalty then it has to be done by authority not by common people. Person who is charged of something will be taken to Judge and they need to provide evidences and issue is resolved by judge. That is done by Islamic authority not by common man or woman.

But , please, do let me ask you the following question:

What is your opinion regarding, WHo God is? and What are His Attributes, and WHY He created you and me? That would be the basic line to start with and I am willing to continue this kind of discussion with you on the condition that we speak with proper evidence and with proper etiquettes.

[Bukharan]

AbdurRahman,

First, I want to clarify the points you have found not clear enough in my previous message.

The following ayats are generally recognised as Qur'an's reference to sodomy between men and women. It clearly states that guilty women should be confined forever (till their death), but men could be freed following their repentance. Allah is forgiving and merciful. But why the forgiveness and mercy do not affect women's fates?

Sura 4 (An-Nisa: Women)

4:15If any of your women commit fornication, call in four witnesses from among yourselves against them; if they testify to their guilt confine them to their houses till death overtakes them or till Allah finds another way for them.4:16If two men among you commit indecency punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

Hi Bukharan.

Thanks for your post and expressing your views.

Like I said, you are not trying to understand Islam with Quran and ahadeeth TOGETHER. But even if u r considering ahadeeth you are SEPERATING them. But if you truely want to understand then you have to take them TOGETHER:

Let's take abt his wife "beating", how this "beating" is understood and explained and practiced by Muhammad peace be upon him and his companions? Did you try to look into how Muhammad peace be upon him treated his wives? Because if "beating" is meant to be the way you have understood then Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and his companions would have practice it accordingly in the first place.

Ok, concerning issue of gay and lesbians, you have to bring me from where you got such information? i mean abt this penalty for them.

In general, if there is certain penalty then it has to be done by authority not by common people. Person who is charged of something will be taken to Judge and they need to provide evidences and issue is resolved by judge. That is done by Islamic authority not by common man or woman.

But , please, do let me ask you the following question:

What is your opinion regarding, WHo God is? and What are His Attributes, and WHY He created you and me? That would be the basic line to start with and I am willing to continue this kind of discussion with you on the condition that we speak with proper evidence and with proper etiquettes.

[Bukharan]

The Qur'an on Wife Beating:

4:34

Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge (beat) them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!

[Bukharan]

Let's take abt his wife "beating", how this "beating" is understood and explained and practiced by Muhammad peace be upon him and his companions? Did you try to look into how Muhammad peace be upon him treated his wives? Because if "beating" is meant to be the way you have understood then Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and his companions would have practice it accordingly in the first place.

AbdurRahman,

Can you be 100 percent sure about all the details of Muhammad's life? And how? We have many copies of ahadeeth and some of them contradict each other. How can you base all your faith on Ahadeeth only? You are suggesting to consider them (the Qur'an and Ahadeeth) TOGETHER. But the real meaning of your suggestion is putting Ahadeeth above the Qur'an itself. To you, Muhammad's practice (based on ahadeeth) is more important than what's written in the Holy Book of Muslims, if I understood you well. But it is Qur'an which is known as the divine scripture, not Ahadeeth, of course. Qur'an gives you a clear verdict to beat your wife if you are afraid of her disobedience.

As said before, it sounds to me too banal to be known as the words of God.

[AbdurRahman]

AbdurRahman,

First, I want to clarify the points you have found not clear enough in my previous message.

The following ayats are generally recognised as Qur'an's reference to sodomy between men and women. It clearly states that guilty women should be confined forever (till their death), but men could be freed following their repentance. Allah is forgiving and merciful. But why the forgiveness and mercy do not affect women's fates?

Sura 4 (An-Nisa: Women)

4:15If any of your women commit fornication, call in four witnesses from among yourselves against them; if they testify to their guilt confine them to their houses till death overtakes them or till Allah finds another way for them.4:16If two men among you commit indecency punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

Hi Bukharan,

Thank you for your clarifications:

Concerning 4:15 it says the following:

And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allâh ordains for them some (other) way. (An-Nisa 4:15)

Where is the problem here?

Concerning 4:16 it says the following:

And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. And if they repent (promise Allâh that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allâh is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful. (An-Nisa 4:16)

Not talking abt gays and lesbians here, it is about man and woman who commit illegal sexual intercourse.

What I asked you was to bring where did u get the death penalty punishment issue for gays and lesbians?

Do you see your problem? You do not have clear facts and have only some "imagination" about Islam.

Concerning "beating" I asked you did you refer to HOW Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and his companions understood it to be?

You asked about how to know whether hadeeth is reliable or not. That is very valid point and for that in Islam we have whole science to study called "Science of Hadeeth" where scholars who are specialised in that field checks ahadeeth whether they are authentic or not etc...

Leader of scholars of hadeeth is a man who was born in our country named Imaam Muhammad ibn Ismaeel al Bukhari rahimahullah.

I repeat my early question again:

But , please, do let me ask you the following question:

What is your opinion regarding, WHo God is? and What are His Attributes, and WHY He created you and me? That would be the basic line to start with and I am willing to continue this kind of discussion with you on the condition that we speak with proper evidence and with proper etiquettes.

[Bukharan]

Hi AbdurRahman,

Have a look at this one as well.

The Qur'an and Homosexuality:

There are many references in the Qur'an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and "masculine women." The five references which seem to refer specifically same-sex behavior are: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifSura 4:14-15: "Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way. And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate." 1

Some translations of the Qur'an call for the long-term or permanent house arrest of women guilty of adultery -- they are to be confined to "houses of death." An accurate translation is that their husband (or their parent or guardian) is to keep them -- not abandon them. Also, if they repent of their sin, God will accept their repentance. 5 It is worth noting that a woman can only be found guilty if four witnesses testify against her. Verse 21 seems to call for physical punishment for men who engage in same-sex activity, followed by their release if they abandon the practice. Verse 24:2 calls for a man or woman guilty of adultery or fornication to be flogged 100 times.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla1.htm

Now its Arabic text:

وَمَن يَعۡصِ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۥ وَيَتَعَدَّ حُدُودَهُ ۥ يُدۡخِلۡهُ نَارًا خَـٰلِدً۬ا فِيهَا وَلَهُ ۥ عَذَابٌ۬ مُّهِينٌ۬ (١٤) وَٱلَّـٰتِى يَأۡتِينَ ٱلۡفَـٰحِشَةَ مِن نِّسَآٮِٕڪُمۡ فَٱسۡتَشۡہِدُواْ عَلَيۡهِنَّ أَرۡبَعَةً۬ مِّنڪُمۡ*ۖ فَإِن شَہِدُواْ فَأَمۡسِكُوهُنَّ فِى ٱلۡبُيُوتِ حَتَّىٰ يَتَوَفَّٮٰهُنَّ ٱلۡمَوۡتُ أَوۡ يَجۡعَلَ ٱللَّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلاً۬ (١٥) وَٱلَّذَانِ يَأۡتِيَـٰنِهَا مِنڪُمۡ فَـَٔاذُوهُمَا*ۖ فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصۡلَحَا فَأَعۡرِضُواْ عَنۡهُمَآ*ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ڪَانَ تَوَّابً۬ا رَّحِيمًا

It clearly gives two ways of punishment for women and 'you' (men). You have changed the reference to men in Ayat 15 into "men and women". Did you do it deliberately?

It seems you are trying to interpret Qur'an and Ahadeeth based on your own belief. But try to base it on your authentic unbiased understanding, and you will get a different impression.

Of course, I know Imam Bukhari and other scholars - interpreters of Ahadeeth. But none of them are accepted by all Muslims throughout the world. And anyway, Ahadeeth cannot be more reliable a source of Islam that Qur'an, can it?

My question again: How can you extol Ahadeeth over Qur'an and how can you prove that Ahadeeth should be relied upon more than Qur'an? What's your proof? Qur'an clearly says: Beat your wives. What has it got to do with Mohammad's life (which is coated in fairy-tales and misteries anyway)? If you accept Qur'an as the word of God, can you believe that God has ordered you to BEAT your wife?


Hi Bukharan,

Thank you for your clarifications:

Concerning 4:15 it says the following:

And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allâh ordains for them some (other) way. (An-Nisa 4:15)

Where is the problem here?

Concerning 4:16 it says the following:

And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. And if they repent (promise Allâh that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allâh is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful. (An-Nisa 4:16)

Not talking abt gays and lesbians here, it is about man and woman who commit illegal sexual intercourse.

What I asked you was to bring where did u get the death penalty punishment issue for gays and lesbians?

Do you see your problem? You do not have clear facts and have only some "imagination" about Islam.

Concerning "beating" I asked you did you refer to HOW Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and his companions understood it to be?

You asked about how to know whether hadeeth is reliable or not. That is very valid point and for that in Islam we have whole science to study called "Science of Hadeeth" where scholars who are specialised in that field checks ahadeeth whether they are authentic or not etc...

Leader of scholars of hadeeth is a man who was born in our country named Imaam Muhammad ibn Ismaeel al Bukhari rahimahullah.

I repeat my early question again:

[Bukharan]

Contradictions are swarming in the Qur'an even with regard to homosexuality. I'm sure it is recognized as a sin here. Nevertheless, it seems to be allowed in Heavens. The Qur'an does have verses which show awareness of male beauty. These are promises made to Muslim men who make it to Heaven.

SURA LII:24

"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."

SURA LXXVI:19

"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."

Could these be said by God as well?

[Bukharan]

More support for male pederasts in Qur'an's glimpses of paradise:


52:17-29 And they shall have boys [ghilmaan] circulating among them as if they were hidden pearls.

56:22-23 and dark-eyed ones [hoorun 'eenun], the like of hidden pearls

76:19 And immortal boys [wildaanun mukhalladoona] will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls.

2:25 And they shall have immaculate partners [azwaajun mutahharatun] in [the gardens] ...

4:57 And they shall have immaculate partners [azwaajun mutahharatun] in them ...

How could it be understood?

Do you want me to put forward more contradictions in the Qur'an that made me and many more doubt its divinity?

[Bukharan]

If you are still insisting on the authenticity of Ahadeeth, read the following passage:

There is even a hadith in Bukhari, admittedly giving not the Prophet's opinion but that of Abu Jafar, according to which a pedophile is prohibited from marrying the mother of his boy-beloved if there is penetration:

(Bukhari LXII, 25) "As for whom(ever) plays with a boy: if he caused him to enter him, then he shall not marry his mother."

Arabic: feeman yal'abu bis-sabiyy: in 'adkhalahu feehi falaa yatazawwajanna 'ummahu.

(This rule is accompanied in the same chapter by prohibitions against a man marrying both a mother and her daughter.) Apparently according to this hadith, even sexual penetration of a boy is not considered sodomy, because if it was, surely the sodomite would have more worries than whether he could marry the boy's mother!

As you can see, men's fornication and pedaphilia are largely overlooked even in the Ahadith.

[AbdurRahman]

Hi AbdurRahman,

Have a look at this one as well.

The Qur'an and Homosexuality:

There are many references in the Qur'an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and "masculine women." The five references which seem to refer specifically same-sex behavior are: http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifSura 4:14-15: "Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way. And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate." 1

Some translations of the Qur'an call for the long-term or permanent house arrest of women guilty of adultery -- they are to be confined to "houses of death." An accurate translation is that their husband (or their parent or guardian) is to keep them -- not abandon them. Also, if they repent of their sin, God will accept their repentance. 5 It is worth noting that a woman can only be found guilty if four witnesses testify against her. Verse 21 seems to call for physical punishment for men who engage in same-sex activity, followed by their release if they abandon the practice. Verse 24:2 calls for a man or woman guilty of adultery or fornication to be flogged 100 times.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla1.htm

Now its Arabic text:

وَمَن يَعۡصِ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۥ وَيَتَعَدَّ حُدُودَهُ ۥ يُدۡخِلۡهُ نَارًا خَـٰلِدً۬ا فِيهَا وَلَهُ ۥ عَذَابٌ۬ مُّهِينٌ۬ (١٤) وَٱلَّـٰتِى يَأۡتِينَ ٱلۡفَـٰحِشَةَ مِن نِّسَآٮِٕڪُمۡ فَٱسۡتَشۡہِدُواْ عَلَيۡهِنَّ أَرۡبَعَةً۬ مِّنڪُمۡ*ۖ فَإِن شَہِدُواْ فَأَمۡسِكُوهُنَّ فِى ٱلۡبُيُوتِ حَتَّىٰ يَتَوَفَّٮٰهُنَّ ٱلۡمَوۡتُ أَوۡ يَجۡعَلَ ٱللَّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلاً۬ (١٥) وَٱلَّذَانِ يَأۡتِيَـٰنِهَا مِنڪُمۡ فَـَٔاذُوهُمَا*ۖ فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصۡلَحَا فَأَعۡرِضُواْ عَنۡهُمَآ*ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ ڪَانَ تَوَّابً۬ا رَّحِيمًا

It clearly gives two ways of punishment for women and 'you' (men). You have changed the reference to men in Ayat 15 into "men and women". Did you do it deliberately?

It seems you are trying to interpret Qur'an and Ahadeeth based on your own belief. But try to base it on your authentic unbiased understanding, and you will get a different impression.

Of course, I know Imam Bukhari and other scholars - interpreters of Ahadeeth. But none of them are accepted by all Muslims throughout the world. And anyway, Ahadeeth cannot be more reliable a source of Islam that Qur'an, can it?

My question again: How can you extol Ahadeeth over Qur'an and how can you prove that Ahadeeth should be relied upon more than Qur'an? What's your proof? Qur'an clearly says: Beat your wives. What has it got to do with Mohammad's life (which is coated in fairy-tales and misteries anyway)? If you accept Qur'an as the word of God, can you believe that God has ordered you to BEAT your wife?

Hi,

I thought you are more intelligent than this, however it does not seem so.

You have read story of Salman Al Farsi and his search for truth. I think you did not learn anything from there.

My question to you is: If you want to learn and understand math, would go to , for example, shepherd and study it from him? or would you rather to find someone who is most learned in math and studied it and KNOWN for his/her knowledge then learn from that individual?

What you are trying to do now is "Learning math from shepherd".

Author of the link you gave is: B.A. Robinson PLUS this is internet source which can be written anything, anywhere.

I am sure if you search well enough you will find an article which might tell the opposite to this article.

I did not read whole article, but if you truely want to bring the ruling on gays and lesbians in Islam then I ask you to bring correct sources with explanation of CORRECT people.

I did not say rely on HADEETH MORE than rely on Quran. I am saying to you take them TOGETHER.

Allaah did not just send Quran to Muhammad peace be upon him, rather Muhammad peace be upon him practiced Quran HIMSELF; and he also taught his companions HOW to understand and practice it. So if you truely want to understand Quran then you have to go back to HOW they have understood and practiced Quran.

Quran does not say BEAT in a sense you and people like you understand with their short mind. If "beating" meant the way you have understood then Muhammad peace be upon him and his companions would be the first ones to practice that type of "beating". You have time from NOW till you die to bring me proof that Muhammad peace be upon him and his companions practiced that type of beating which are you thinking of!.

You see your problem: When I ask you PROOF for your view you have NO other "proof" but give me some website where it is written by tom and harry and God knows who these people are!. And that is not the intelligent way of doing things.

[AbdurRahman]

Contradictions are swarming in the Qur'an even with regard to homosexuality. I'm sure it is recognized as a sin here. Nevertheless, it seems to be allowed in Heavens. The Qur'an does have verses which show awareness of male beauty. These are promises made to Muslim men who make it to Heaven.

SURA LII:24

"And there shall wait on them [the Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."

SURA LXXVI:19

"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."

Could these be said by God as well?


Only people who have SICK MIND can think of this being abt gayism!!!

Plus the deception is that Bukharan is putting wrong translation:

And there will go round boy-servants of theirs, to serve them as if they were preserved pearls. (At-Tur 52:24)


And round about them will (serve) boys of everlasting youth. If you see them, you would think them scattered pearls. (Al-Insan 76:19)


I ask admins if this Bukharan does not stop his filthy thinking about Quran then he should be warned or even banned. Because that is not the moral way of discussing things.

[AbdurRahman]

(Bukhari LXII, 25) "As for whom(ever) plays with a boy: if he caused him to enter him, then he shall not marry his mother."
<