Knowledge in the Qur'an

[Bukharan]

I still believe that 'knowledge' in the Qur'an means nothing but 'knowledge of the faith'. Why? Because nobody could provide us with quotes from Qur'an where 'knowledge' is used in its contemporary meaning.

But I think we should try our best and see if at least in one instance the word is used to give us its contemporary meaning or not. Thanks.

[Bukharan]

The locked thread was amongst the most popular once:

http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php?t=46656&page=21

It was locked not in a proper manner by a person who could not be objective. Therefore, we thought to attend to any possible logical relevant question here.

[Bukharan]

An Islamic website called Islamcity perfectly explains the role and essence of 'knowledge' in Islam:

"Islam is a religion based upon knowledge for it is ultimately knowledge of the Oneness of God combined with faith and total commitment to Him that saves man."

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/IGC/knowledge.htm

This is what I think as well: 'knowledge' in Islam is 'the ultimate knowledge of the Oneness of Allah', which is actually the knowledge of the faith, but not knowlege in its general understanding.

[Abu-Hafiza]

The locked thread was amongst the most popular once:

http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php?t=46656&page=21

It was locked not in a proper manner by a person who could not be objective. Therefore, we thought to attend to any possible logical relevant question here.
The thread was locked per your own request, or did you forget that?

Behave Mr Bukharan or you will be punished and refrain from sending stupid PM's, if you have anything to say, say it publicly

[Bukharan]

The thread was locked per your own request, or did you forget that?

Behave Mr Bukharan or you will be punished and refrain from sending stupid PM's, if you have anything to say, say it publicly

Abu-Hafiza,

Try to be a serious moderator, not an entertainer. I had told you the question was exhausted and it was time to lock it indeed. But you, as a moderator, had no moral right to pour down your hatred and biased judgement at the end. Actually, as my opponent you had no right to do so. You were supposed to leave it up to other moderators' decision. Because in that particular thread you were not a moderator: you were one of the two sides of the discussion. Got it?

[Bukharan]

As nobody could prove us wrong in the issue (knowledge in the Qur'an), I am trying to do that myself and see if the outcome will be any different.

For this purpose I am reading Islamic views about knowledge in Islam. Like this one:

"In Islam, knowledge comes before action; there can be no action without knowledge, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

”So know (O Muhammad) that Laa ilaaha ill-Allâh (none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh), and ask forgiveness for your sin, and also for (the sin of) believing men and believing women”[Muhammad 47:19]

Allaah warns every Muslim against speaking without knowledge, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

”And follow not (O man, i.e., say not, or do not, or witness not) that of which you have no knowledge. Verily, the hearing, and the sight, and the heart of each of those ones will be questioned (by Allâh)”[al-Israa’ 17:36]

Emphasizing the status of knowledge and the scholars, Allaah calls upon the scholars to bear witness to His Oneness, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

”Allâh bears witness that Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), and the angels, and those having knowledge (also give this witness); (He always) maintains His creation in justice. Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the All-Mighty, the All-Wise”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:18]

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/10471

Again, in order to be known as a knowledgable person (scholar) you have to bear witness to Allah's Oneness (= knowledge of the faith). This ayat fortifies our position more than before.

[Bukharan]

Knowledge and fear of Allaah may be attained by knowing His signs and creation. The knowledgeable are those who know that, hence Allaah praises them by saying (interpretation of the meaning):

”It is only those who have knowledge among His slaves that fear Allâh”[Faatir 35:28]

The same source.

[RedBull]

keep on movin' learning Islam, soon by forcing hidayah in your poor soul you'll convert to Islam InshaAllah.

[Bukharan]

keep on movin' learning Islam, soon by forcing hidayah in your poor soul you'll convert to Islam InshaAllah.

I was in your position as a kid. The deeper I go the farther I move away from Islam. Why is that? Is it because it denies knowledge and logic?

[Bukharan]

This is a perfect manifestation by Qur'an that 'knowledge is solely the knowledge of the faith':

Knowledge and fear of Allaah may be attained by knowing His signs and creation. The knowledgeable are those who know that, hence Allaah praises them by saying (interpretation of the meaning):

”It is only those who have knowledge among His slaves that fear Allâh”[Faatir 35:28]

The same source.

[RedBull]

I was in your position as a kid. The deeper I go the farther I move away from Islam. Why is that? Is it because it denies knowledge and logic?

:lool::lool:
don't tell me your knowledge was aimin' to find out who you'RE, becaus there is thing you don't have to know about.
and i'll tell you what remember the first vers of Qur'an was sent to Muhammad (S.A.V)

I am very sorry for your kidness time not seeing the TRUTH.

[Bukharan]

:lool::lool:
don't tell me your knowledge was aimin' to find out who you'RE, becaus there is thing you don't have to know about.
and i'll tell you what remember the first vers of Qur'an was sent to Muhammad (S.A.V)

I am very sorry for your kidness time not seeing the TRUTH.

Do you mean the word 'Iqra!' (Read) in Alaq? And what? Can you enlighten us more about it as an adult debater without childish giggles?

[RedBull]

Do you mean the word 'Iqra!' (Read) in Alaq? And what? Can you enlighten us more about it as an adult debater without childish giggles?

when you say ADULT, meant to say ADULT of ilm-ul Qur'an and Hadith or you're talkin' about age stuff? whatever.
if you wanna find out somth. about KNOWLEDGE what will be your the first step?

[Bukharan]

when you say ADULT, meant to say ADULT of ilm-ul Qur'an and Hadith or you're talkin' about age stuff? whatever.
if you wanna find out somth. about KNOWLEDGE what will be your the first step?

You got a funny habbit which is not seen in adult people Red Bull. You open a question, then leave it gaping like that and jump on something totally new and far from the main topic.

You asked if I remembered the first ayat revealed to Muhammad. I said, yes, if you mean al-'Alaq. So? Now you have to reveal what you meant by that question. That's simply the rule to discuss a question.

[RedBull]

You got a funny habbit which is not seen in adult people Red Bull. You open a question, then leave it gaping like that and jump on something totally new and far from the main topic.

You said if I remembered the first ayat revealed to Muhammad. I said, yes, if you mean al-'Alaq. So? What did you mean by that question?

didn't answer my question? :(

P.S how many years did you spend for Islam?

[Bukharan]

didn't answer my question? :(

P.S how many years did you spend for Islam?

I did answer your question. Your question was:

RedBull says: ...remember the first vers of Qur'an was sent to Muhammad (S.A.V)

My answer was: yes, it was "al-'Alaq" that starts with the word 'Iqra!' (Read!).

So what? Why did you mention the verse? Or have you forgotten what it was about? I can remind you if you wish. I just want to know the reason you asked me this question.

[RedBull]

if you wanna find out somth. about KNOWLEDGE what will be your the first step?


there was a question above.

tired of 15 hours, sitting in front of this laptop seraching somth new. :(

[Bukharan]

there was a question above.

tired of 15 hours, sitting in front of this laptop seraching somth new. :(

We will get back to your second question. First try to finish the first one. Because you have to learn how to take part in a debate. Your first question is still open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull http://forum.arbuz.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.arbuz.com/showthread.php?p=1047869#post1047869)
didn't answer my question? :(

P.S how many years did you spend for Islam?

I did answer your question. Your question was:

Quote:
RedBull says: ...remember the first vers of Qur'an was sent to Muhammad (S.A.V)
My answer was: yes, it was "al-'Alaq" that starts with the word 'Iqra!' (Read!).

So what? Why did you mention the verse? Or have you forgotten what it was about? I can remind you if you wish. I just want to know the reason you asked me this question.

[RedBull]

that's what we're trin' to do. findin' the correct and acceptable (bu you) answer for the qustion about "IQRA". It's all about you dude

[Bukharan]

It seems you find it too hard to remember what the sura was about. Here you go:

"Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created.
He has created man from a clot.
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.
Who has taught by the pen.
He has taught man that which he knew not”

So, the Clot confirms my position about 'knowledge' in the Qur'an again. It says Read! Read what? "In the Name of your Lord Who has created. He has created man from a clot." It is sheer Faith again, isn't it? Knowledge of the faith. Not the knowledge that we know. Do you get what I mean?

[RedBull]

It seems you find it too hard to remember what the sura was about. Here you go:

"Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created.
He has created man from a clot.
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.
Who has taught by the pen.
He has taught man that which he knew not”

So, the Clot confirms my position about 'knowledge' in the Qur'an again. It says Read! Read what? "In the Name of your Lord Who has created. He has created man from a clot." It is sheer Faith again, isn't it? Knowledge of the faith. Not the knowledge that we know. Do you get what I mean?

told you it's all about you. Don't rush. let's see what's goin' on with the first word "IQRA"

[Bukharan]

told you it's all about you. Don't rush. let's see what's goin' on with the first word "IQRA"

I told you what it was about as you didn't seem to remember it. You just mentioned another proof of my stance, and realizing your mistake, didn't want to get back to the question.

Now tell us what's going on with the word 'Iqra'. Or do you want me to tell you again?

[RedBull]

step with me on the trace of Xaqiqat.

just take it easy and answer for the sub-question: if you wanna find out somth. about KNOWLEDGE what will be your the first step?

[Bukharan]

step with me on the trace of Xaqiqat.

just take it easy and answer for the sub-question: if you wanna find out somth. about KNOWLEDGE what will be your the first step?

First of all, try to spell the word (Truth) properly. There is a thread about how to distinguish H from X in the Languages section.

Secondly, what do you mean by the Truth where you are trying to invite me? If you mean Islam, I'm telling you, I've been there already when I was a kid.

Now clarify your vague question about knowledge.

[Bukharan]

And again: what happened with 'Iqra'? You were supposed to reveal a secret about the word. The audience is waiting.

[RedBull]

so you're scared to step with me?

P.S. popal about XAQIQAT. Want to make sure about it :) i've seen what you posted about H and X, I was sure you're lookin' after my words

[RedBull]

why you've skipped my sub-question?

the second sub-question : Why IQRA came out the first word of the Holy Qur'an?

[Bukharan]

so you're scared to step with me?

P.S. popal about XAQIQAT. Want to make sure about it :) i've seen what you posted about H and X, I was sure you're lookin' after my words

What is your question? Are you sure about it yourself what you mean?

[RedBull]

i'm gonna leave you alone with your thoughts about how spend brain oppturnity and on what to spend. try to answer fo sub-questions.
May Allah give you hidayah

[Bukharan]

why you've skipped my sub-question?

the second sub-question : Why IQRA came out the first word of the Holy Qur'an?

Don't rush, as you say. What is your main question? Whose sub-question is that?

You were supposed to tell us about 'Iqra'. What was that secret about?

[Bukharan]

i'm gonna leave you alone with your thoughts about how spend brain oppturnity and on what to spend. try to answer fo sub-questions.
May Allah give you hidayah

lol. I've see a lot of you guys: full of loud words and nothing inside. Just like a big noisy but empty jar.

The main question of the topic was:

Bring me one example from the Qur'an where Allah uses the word 'knowledge' in its general contemporary understanding and not 'the knowledge of the faith'. Did you bring me one?

All what you did was talking about something that you didn't comprehend yourself. I even had to help you out with Alaq. And now you wish me to be led to Sirat-al-mustaqim? lol.

I wish you to obtain the sight to see things as they are indeed.

[Bukharan]

It seems nobody is able to give us one, simply one Quranic example where the word 'knowledge' means knowledge and nothing else.

[RedBull]

let me tell your fault of learning ilm-ul haqiqat.

Do you mean the word 'Iqra!' (Read) in Alaq? And what?...

see how you treat Islam, and what you're waiting...the same question. "So you complaining and telling that you spent your many years learning and researching Islamic ilm, Islam's answer is the same as yours SO WHAT.

quit diggin' personel sides of discuss. Just face to the Haqiqat and go with me answering my question.
that's all you gotta do dude

[Bukharan]

let me tell your fault of learning ilm-ul haqiqat.

Do you mean the word 'Iqra!' (Read) in Alaq? And what?...

see how you treat Islam, and what you're waiting...the same question. "So you complaining and telling that you spent your many years learning and researching Islamic ilm, Islam's is the same as yours SO WHAT.

quit diggin' personel sides of discuss. Just face to the Haqiqat and go with me answering my question.
that's all you gotta do dude

I thought you left dude, as you said in your previous message. Happy you are still here. But remember, nobody's complained about anything. I'm glad that I'm familiar with Islam.

Ok, since you are here, will you answer the main question of the topic?

Bring me one Qur'anic example where the word 'knowledge' means 'knowledge' in its general understanding, not the 'knowdge of the faith'? That's what you gotta do in this thread. For anything else, including your missionary task of inviting people to your religion, use other relevant threads or open new ones. The question of the thread is clear enough, I believe. So try to answer if you can. But please, be clear and to the point.

[RedBull]

ok my point was to clarify understanding of The Holy Qur'an (i'm not talkin' about translation meaning which you've read by this time) but hided miracles about each Ayat's time with the position of matter which were needed to sent to Muhammad (S.A.V)

i'll bring you a lot of Ayat's and Sahih Hadith pointin' to the right answer.

[Bukharan]

ok my point was to clarify understanding of The Holy Qur'an (i'm not talkin' about translation meaning which you've read by this time) but hided miracles about each Ayat's time with the position of matter which were needed to sent to Muhammad (S.A.V)

i'll bring you a lot of Ayat's and Sahih Hadith pointin' to the right answer.

Cool. Will be waiting for QUR'ANIC (QUR@ANIC) verses containing the word 'knowledge' in its contemporary understanding. At least one. No hidden miracles are needed. Just the word and the notion which could be recognized by anybody.

[RedBull]

and it's the third time and the last i'm reminding you not to ignore my sub-questions?

P.S. rushing in learning, smashing in thinking

[Bukharan]

and it's the third time and the last i'm reminding you not to ignore my sub-questions?

P.S. rushing in learning, smashing in thinking

Listen dude. Just a second ago you said:

"i'll bring you a lot of Ayat's and Sahih Hadith pointin' to the right answer."

And the topic is exactly about what you've promised to bring. Not your missionary plans. So, don't waste your time and bring me those promised examples. I strated doubting about your 'knowledge of the faith' altogether. Cut the excess talk and bring forward those Qur'anic examples to discuss.

[RedBull]

Cool. Will be waiting for QUR'ANIC verses containing the word 'knowledge' in its contemporary understanding. At least one. No hidden miracles are needed. Just the word and the notion which could be recognized by anybody.

didn't get me yet, man. you're gotta be able to feel every word knowing why they came out and used like these. (showed in above post)
Then we're gonna discuss with you on my pending Ayats. OK?

[Bukharan]

didn't get me yet, man. you're gotta be able to feel every word knowing why they came out and used like these. (showed in above post)
Then we're gonna discuss with you on my pending Ayats. OK?

I'm totally sure that you are lost dude. You are not alone though. There have been dozens of you so far. Take it easy. Have fun.

[Bukharan]

Who's next?

Gimme just one example if you can or keep it quiet.

[RedBull]

I'm totally sure that you are lost dude. You are not alone though. There have been dozens of you so far. Take it easy. Have fun.

there were dozens of smart guys among jews than rabay in the chair at this time? :D keep reading this sentence and you'll find that your thought is wrong about DOZENS

So i accept your the last post like fairness pushing to the trace of Haqiqat
InshaAllah you're gonna spend much more time than you did it before on Islam.

[Bukharan]

there were dozens of smart guys among jews than rabay in the chair at this time? :D keep reading this sentence and you'll find that your thought is wrong about DOZENS

So i accept your the last post like fairness pushing to the trace of Haqiqat
InshaAllah you're gonna spend much more time than you did it before on Islam.

Your posts don't make a sense anymore RedBull. And there is no word 'rabay' in the dictionary of any language. Go to bed and take it easy dude.

Learn Islam. And before opening your mouth about it, try to fathom out what you want to say. By giving void and vague ideas about Islam you are damaging it more than before.

[Bukharan]

RedBull joined Dozens of Others. His posts are real grotesque: convert to Islam, then I will bring you Qur'anic examples! lol

That phenomenon means a lot. You have to convert to Islam in order to understand it. Whereas for a person led by Reason it should be vice versa: first you have to be convinced about something and then accept it.

Anybody else to follow him? Unless someone could give me one Qur'anic example where the word 'knowledge' means knowledge.

[RedBull]

Rabay is the name of person dude. you don't even know who youre supported by?

don't call weak partners for these sensless tread.
First answer the qustion or you're scared?

[Abu-Hafiza]

I still believe that 'knowledge' in the Qur'an means nothing but 'knowledge of the faith'. Why? Because nobody could provide us with quotes from Qur'an where 'knowledge' is used in its contemporary meaning.

But I think we should try our best and see if at least in one instance the word is used to give us its contemporary meaning or not. Thanks.

Bukharan bukharan

Even after all the proofs you turn a bilnd eye and claim that no ayats were provided. OK, lets play your game then.

Lets suppose knowledge in quran means faith, what does it prove?

[Bukharan]

Rabay is the name of person dude. you don't even know who youre supported by?

don't call weak partners for these sensless tread.
First answer the qustion or you're scared?

If you think 'rabay' is the name of a person, you have to take pills:)

Now, have you gained enough of knowledge to discuss the matter with me or are you still in your kindergarten?

[Bukharan]

Bukharan bukharan

Even after all the proofs you turn a bilnd eye and claim that no ayats were provided. OK, lets play your game then.

Lets suppose knowledge in quran means faith, what does it prove?

Thanks.:lol:
That proves that all your 'proofs' were bogus.

[RedBull]

Bukharan bukharan

Even after all the proofs you turn a bilnd eye and claim that no ayats were provided. OK, lets play your game then.

Lets suppose knowledge in quran means faith, what does it prove?

oh please talk to this a poor and an upset guy, i think his wife didn't serve him today. :(

[Bukharan]

oh please talk to this a poor and an upset guy, i think his wife didn't serve him today. :(

Well, of course you need somebody's hand, broken mate:) You sighed with an enormous relief at his sight (Ohhhh pleeaaase...) An hour ago you were complaining that you wanted to go to bed. Now go and enjoy the rest of your night. I think Abu-Hafiza is a more interesting debater than you. He would fight your war for you. At least we can fight on something more sensible with him. Good night Bull.

[Bukharan]

Are you there Abu-Hafiza? I can't believe that you accepted the truth.

[Abu-Hafiza]

Thanks.:lol:
That proves that all your 'proofs' were bogus.

LOL, you are killing me man, time and time again lool:

Can you READ? Or do you live in your fantasies on hearing what you want to hear and then blindly believing it? I said if we assume what you say (i specifically called it "your game") then what would that prove? Where did you get the habbit of running away from the questions? You do realise that so far you have not answered ANY of my questions, dont you?

[Bukharan]

LOL, you are killing me man, time and time again lool:

Can you READ? Or do you live in your fantasies on hearing what you want to hear and then blindly believing it? I said if we assume what you say (i specifically called it "your game") then what would that prove? Where did you get the habbit of running away from the questions? You do realise that so far you have not answered ANY of my questions, dont you?

:lol:

Everytime you are at loss you become funnier Abu-Hafiza.

The question is put by me: A Qur'anic example where knowledge is knowledge. What's your answer? (Beep beep beep). Cut off again?
lol

[RedBull]

If you think 'rabay' is the name of a person, you have to take pills:)



opyat' popal :D

how come you're surely answering that "rabay" is not the name of person, IF you say there's not such a word in your mind?

P.S where you stay in US? i'll send you rabay's number...

[RedBull]

:lol:

Everytime you are at loss you become funnier Abu-Hafiza.

The question is put by me: A Qur'anic example where knowledge is knowledge. What's your answer? (Beep beep beep). Cut off again?
lol

:lool:

did you use the word KNOWLEDGE? what you know about "IQRA"
The firs word of The Holy Qur'an before you get lost in Islam

[Abu-Hafiza]

:lol:

Everytime you are at loss you become funnier Abu-Hafiza.

The question is put by me: A Qur'anic example where knowledge is knowledge. What's your answer? (Beep beep beep). Cut off again?
lol

Thank you for avoiding my question yet AGAIN, really shows your "debate skills" :D

I told you already that the word "give knowlege" was mentioned in the Qur'an in the examples of David given knowledge of armour making, Solomon given the knowledge of the language of birds, Adam given the knowledge of the names of everything and that Allah specifically says that he gives knowledge by PEN. What else do you need?\ Or should I give you another arabic lesson?

Besides why would any person (as you do not believe in Allah, you probably think that prophet muhammad wrote Qur'an himself) would use the word "ilm" to mean "iman" where he could use much more appropriate words like "irfaan" and others in stead? Why would the word "ilm" mean "knowledge" everythere in the world, but in Qur'an it had to mean something else?

Now would you kindly answer my question? If we play your game, what would that prove?

[Bukharan]

opyat' popal :D

how come you're surely answering that "rabay" is not the name of person, IF you say there's not such a word in your mind?

P.S where you stay in US? i'll send you rabay's number...

Are you talking about Ruba'iyat of Khayyam?:lol:

Did you get back with an answer? Or are you waiting for your supporter to start the talk for you? Any examples from Qur'an?

[Legend]

Bukharan check this out, maybe it will help answer your question...

starts from the 2:00...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sLg4UARh3g&eurl=http://thedeenshow.com/show.php?action=detail&id=558


If I find more , I'll post it

[RedBull]

Are you talking about Ruba'iyat of Khayyam?:lol:


pochemu ti vsegda popadayesh when I start talkin' about sample thing, probably you don't know chest combinations huh?

[RedBull]

Are you talking about Ruba'iyat of Khayyam?:lol:


when you're done with them answer my above mentioned sub-questions.
Don't scare lil boy don't scare

[Legend]

Here I think is the most proper answer for your question...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0HuFmkp6xY&eurl=http://thedeenshow.com/show.php?action=detail&id=531

[Bukharan]

Where are your Qur'anic quotes and context?

In 'Alaq the word 'pen' is used indeed. But as explained before, it has nothing to do with general knowledge.

1) READ 1 in the name of thy Sustainer, who has created –

(2) created man out of a germ-cell! 2

(3) Read - for thy Sustainer is the Most Bountiful One

(4) who has taught [man] the use of the pen –

(5) taught man what he did not know! 3

(6) Nay, verily, man becomes grossly overweening

(7) whenever he believes himself to be self-sufficient:

(8) for, behold, unto thy Sustainer all must return. 4

So? What do you get from it? It is implying to knowledge as knowledge or knowledge of faith? And where is the word 'knowledge' in it at all? Thus, it's been rejected as a proof already.

As for the word usage. Your Arabic seems to be too lame dude. No need to brag about it. Otherwise, what has 'irfan to do with 'ilm? And how come you don't understand the difference between the faith (iman) and knowledge of the faith ('ilm-al-iman or 'ilm-al-islam)? But why to use a word-combination while one single word ('ilm) suffices Qur'ans need to express its only understanding of the word 'knowledge'? You can build up word-combinations about anything and replace a single word with them too. But 'knowledge' in its Qur'anic context remains as the knowledge of the faith and nothing else.

Thank you for avoiding my question yet AGAIN, really shows your "debate skills" :D

I told you already that the word "give knowlege" was mentioned in the Qur'an in the examples of David given knowledge of armour making, Solomon given the knowledge of the language of birds, Adam given the knowledge of the names of everything and that Allah specifically says that he gives knowledge by PEN. What else do you need? Or should I give you another arabic lesson?

Besides why would any person (as you do not believe in Allah, you probably think that prophet muhammad wrote Qur'an himself) would use the word "ilm" to mean "iman" where he could use much more appropriate words like "irfaan" and others in stead? Why would the word "ilm" mean "knowledge" everythere in the world, but in Qur'an it had to mean something else?

Now would you kindly answer my question? If we play your game, what would that prove?

[Bukharan]

Here I think is the most proper answer for your question...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0HuFmkp6xY&eurl=http://thedeenshow.com/show.php?action=detail&id=531

Thanks. I will definitely watch it. But it's too long and can't do it right now. If you are so sure about its effect, can you tell us in a couple of words what's so special about the clip that could not be found in the Qur'an itself?

[Bukharan]

when you're done with them answer my above mentioned sub-questions.
Don't scare lil boy don't scare

By 'them' you mean other participants who are trying to talk about the topic, unlike your persona?:lol:

Am I scaring you? lol. I didn't know that. Don't be scared lil bro. I am vegetarian.:)

[Legend]

Thanks. I will definitely watch it. But it's too long and can't do it right now. If you are so sure about its effect, can you tell us in a couple of words what's so special about the clip that could not be found in the Qur'an itself?

I didn't say whatever was said here can not be found in Qur'an, they give you an explanation of Faith and Knowledge as you asked, I can't give you myself a straight links fom Qur'an, just because I don't have much knowledge of Qur'an myself. Thus I gave you this link.

[Bukharan]

I didn't say whatever was said here can not be found in Qur'an, they give you an explanation of Faith and Knowledge as you asked, I can't give you myself a straight links fom Qur'an, just because I don't have much knowledge of Qur'an myself. Thus I gave you this link.

Thanks Legend. Actually, the link is extremely useful. Dr. Jafar Idris says:

"If you say, I trust this person, you must base your belief on some knowledge. If you don’t have knowledge, then you don’t have real belief."

This is what I understand as the Qur'anic concept of 'knowledge'. 'Belief' and 'knowledge' are twisted to the stage of confusion: if you don't believe you have no knowledge, if you have some knowledge you must believe. That means 'the knowledge of the belief' - precisely as in Qur'an.

That was a good proof indeed. Many thanks.

[Bukharan]

Now, Abu-Hafiza. Hear this from Dr. Jafar Idris:

"Many people say: I don’t know but I believe. If you don’t know don’t believe. What kind of knowledge is the faith in Allah based on? You must have some knowledge that is relevant to the attributes of Allah or to the message of Allah or to the Prophet. That knowledge leads you to believe and have faith in Allah subhanallahu ta’ala."

It's the same 'alim whose video clip Legend forwarded to us. Watch it and listen to his explanation of 'knowledge in Islam'. It is not an infidel or heretic talking about the concept, neither a less aware believer of your kind, but an authority in Islam. His view totally supports my opinion about the lubb-ul-albab and essence of knowledge in Islam.

[Abu-Hafiza]

Where are your Qur'anic quotes and context?

In 'Alaq the word 'pen' is used indeed. But as explained before, it has nothing to do with general knowledge.

1) READ 1 in the name of thy Sustainer, who has created –

(2) created man out of a germ-cell! 2

(3) Read - for thy Sustainer is the Most Bountiful One

(4) who has taught [man] the use of the pen –

(5) taught man what he did not know! 3

(6) Nay, verily, man becomes grossly overweening

(7) whenever he believes himself to be self-sufficient:

(8) for, behold, unto thy Sustainer all must return. 4

So? What do you get from it? It is implying to knowledge as knowledge or knowledge of faith? And where is the word 'knowledge' in it at all? Thus, it's been rejected as a proof already.

Lol, what is this now? Why you do not want to categorically define what knowledge actually is? I told you time and time again that Allah tells us to get knowledge in everything (astronomy, physics, math and so on) so that we understand his creation and believe in his words. Besides, knowledge is a tool for believing. Allah created everything and put certain rules which are called sunnatullah. Learning them will lead us to only one conclusion-acceptance of the creator as such an intelegent design cannot just randomly happen.

Where is the word "knowledge"? "Allama" is the word for you. I thought your arabic was "perfect" you could say in such a brilliant way "tatakallamu arabiyya", remember? Ilm is the noun form of alama and allama is the verb form of it, meaning to give knowledge.

As for the word usage. Your Arabic seems to be too lame dude. No need to brag about it. Otherwise, what has 'irfan to do with 'ilm? And how come you don't understand the difference between the faith (iman) and knowledge of the faith ('ilm-al-iman or 'ilm-al-islam)? But why to use a word-combination while one single word ('ilm) suffices Qur'ans need to express its only understanding of the word 'knowledge'? You can build up word-combinations about anything and replace a single word with them too. But 'knowledge' in its Qur'anic context remains as the knowledge of the faith and nothing else.

Iza yurid nudavvim bil 3arabiyya akhi ;) the word irfaan derived from the word arafa-to know. Irfaan is the noun form of it. Irfaan is the same word in regard to arafa as ilm in regards to alama dude ) Besides what do you mean by saying "knowledge of faith"? How can you "know the faith"? Did you not say yourself that faith is something you believe without getting any knowledge, i.e. blindly believing? Or are you talking about theology? You have to first clear up your own question man.

So, answer me my main question. What are you trying to prove? When you claim that knowledge in quran is the knowledge of faith, what do you try to prove?

[Bukharan]

Abu-Hafiza,

You must have realized so far that by shouting and yelling and sarcastic notes you are not going to prove your case. On the contrary, you will be ridiculed. That's why, gather yourself for the final battle and give me examples from the Qur'an. Where does it say that 'getting knowledge in astronomy, physics, math and so on' is good? Any Qur'anic verse about it?

The word 'knowledge' in its Qur'anic context is used in parallel with Faith that implies the 'knowledge of Faith'. If you didn't understand its Arabic equivalent it's not my fault. You have to ask your Arabic teachers to explain what it means. I can tell you thus far: knowledge of faith in Qur'an is based on your belief in Allah. Just get back to my previous messages and read Dr. Jafar Idris' sayings. Or do you think that you are higher an authority in Islam than Dr. Idris? I won't be perplexed if you think so. It's typical of you. But it means you have a problem with Islamic scholars' understanding of the word 'knowledge'.

However, Dr Idris' lecture tells us that your view is baseless in academic circles of Islam. Islam says, your knowledge should be based on your belief. While I am saying your belief should be based on your knowledge and logic.

There was no need for showing off your incipient Arabic of arafa and alama. Their meanings are known to any beginner. However, 'Irfan is totally different from 'Ilm, as the former implies the mystical knowledge and the latter is general knowledge. That means, here we are talking about 'Ilm, not 'Irfan.

Now, if you want to go on, give me one Qur'anic example where 'Ilm is used in its general understanding, not implying to 'knowledge of the faith'. If you can't, take it easy and save your nerves.

Lol, what is this now? Why you do not want to categorically define what knowledge actually is? I told you time and time again that Allah tells us to get knowledge in everything (astronomy, physics, math and so on) so that we understand his creation and believe in his words. Besides, knowledge is a tool for believing. Allah created everything and put certain rules which are called sunnatullah. Learning them will lead us to only one conclusion-acceptance of the creator as such an intelegent design cannot just randomly happen.

Where is the word "knowledge"? "Allama" is the word for you. I thought your arabic was "perfect" you could say in such a brilliant way "tatakallamu arabiyya", remember? Ilm is the noun form of alama and allama is the verb form of it, meaning to give knowledge.


It is used to refer both to Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) mysticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism)

Iza yurid nudavvim bil 3arabiyya akhi ;) the word irfaan derived from the word arafa-to know. Irfaan is the noun form of it. Irfaan is the same word in regard to arafa as ilm in regards to alama dude ) Besides what do you mean by saying "knowledge of faith"? How can you "know the faith"? Did you not say yourself that faith is something you believe without getting any knowledge, i.e. blindly believing? Or are you talking about theology? You have to first clear up your own question man.

So, answer me my main question. What are you trying to prove? When you claim that knowledge in quran is the knowledge of faith, what do you try to prove?

[Abu-Hafiza]

Lol Bukharan, thank you for avoiding my question YET AGAIN :)

Where did you get that habbit from? Why cant you just say "Abu-Hafiza, what I am trying to prove is so and so"? Why do you have to ridicule yourself with your ignorance and make funny statements when you are exposed? And why are you so afraid to say "i dont know" to something that you dont know?

Now lets analise your words:
Abu-Hafiza,

You must have realized so far that by shouting and yelling and sarcastic notes you are not going to prove your case. On the contrary, you will be ridiculed. That's why, gather yourself for the final battle and give me examples from the Qur'an. Where does it say that 'getting knowledge in astronomy, physics, math and so on' is good? Any Qur'anic verse about it?
First of all Bukharan, my last post was in all of it's seriosness without even a hint of sarcasm. I told you time and time again that knowledge means knowledge in any language. The knowledge was not classified into "religious knowlege" and "secular knowledge" till centuries after the birth of Islam. Grammatically, historically and in every context knowledge would mean EVERYTHING. Just like Allah says that he has taught (given knowledge) a man what he did not know.

The word 'knowledge' in its Qur'anic context is used in parallel with Faith that implies the 'knowledge of Faith'. If you didn't understand its Arabic equivalent it's not my fault. You have to ask your Arabic teachers to explain what it means. I can tell you thus far: knowledge of faith in Qur'an is based on your belief in Allah.
What do you m ean "knowledge of faith in the Qur'an is based on your belief in Allah"? I either do believe in Allah or i do not, what is "the knowledge of faith" in here? How would you measure my "knowledge of faith"? And what do you have to "know" in order to get "faith"? You believe in something once you learn about it, research its signs. Is it logical to say "bukharan has intellegence because I have saw his writings and can see the intellegence in there"? Or is it logical enough to say "There is a petrol in the car, because I have learned that the car would not move without a petrol"? So you can make a conclusion in your belief by studying, learning, gettign knowledge of the signs and the results. This i sexactly why the sciences began in the first place, to understand the creation of God and to affirm your faith. This is what knowledge has with the relation to faith. This is exactly why many scientists are accepting islam even nowadays and this is exactly what has triggered the golden age in Islamic civilization.
Just get back to my previous messages and read Dr. Jafar Idris' sayings. Or do you think that you are higher an authority in Islam than Dr. Idris? I won't be perplexed if you think so. It's typical of you. But it means you have a problem with Islamic scholars' understanding of the word 'knowledge'.

However, Dr Idris' lecture tells us that your view is baseless in academic circles of Islam. Islam says, your knowledge should be based on your belief. While I am saying your belief should be based on your knowledge and logic.

No, you are wrong in here as well. Even in the quotes you have provided, Dr Idris (who you have never heard before I am sure, now you are talking about him as if he was your school mate) is saying "you have to know to believ". This is exactly the same thing that I am saying and this is exactly what Allah is saying as well. I have brought you many examples where Allah talks about "giving thought" about universe, plants, ruins of the cities etc. You dismissed them claiming when Allah say "think about it" he means "dont think about it, dont research but believ" which is only your understanding.

I told you that we have to define what knowledge is and I have shown to you in many examples that once you know-u believe. So once you know about the creation, you know the creator as well.

There was no need for showing off your incipient Arabic of arafa and alama. Their meanings are known to any beginner. However, 'Irfan is totally different from 'Ilm, as the former implies the mystical knowledge and the latter is general knowledge. That means, here we are talking about 'Ilm, not 'Irfan.

Lol, I thought first you said that Irfaan does not mean knowledge? Admit it, you did not expect that comming. You only learnet about "irfaan in mystycal term" from wikipedia, right?

Lets analize this for you:

First of all, grammatically the word "irfaan" would be closer to "knowledge of faith" then the word ilm as irfaan literally would mean "the knowing".

Secondly the words irfaan in mystical sence only started to be implied after Zunnun al Misri (d. 243/859) categorised the concept in tasawwuf, called Ma'rifatullah and it was Bayazid Bistami (804-874) who made it famous.
It is more then 200 years AFTER the prophet (SAWS) that irfaan or ma'rifa got the mystical meaning as you have implied. This is the same problem you have, you imply words you find from there and here without knowing its history and you get humiliated after that. At least admit that you dont know arabic and stop showing off, give us at least that much.

Now, if you want to go on, give me one Qur'anic example where 'Ilm is used in its general understanding, not implying to 'knowledge of the faith'. If you can't, take it easy and save your nerves.

Examples were given, your explanations were not satifactory. Now will you just once give a straight answer to my question? What are you truing to prove?

[Bukharan]

Abu-Hafiza,

Don't be as silly as to teach me what Irfan means dude. You might have checked it in Wikipedia to assertain your shallow knowledge about it. But I could give you dozens of lectures about Irfan and urafa if you wish.

However, getting back to the topic, I have to tell you that you've turned into a useless noisy chatter-box. Where is the proof that Qur'an has used the word 'knowledge' in its general understanding? Your funny statement below tells me a lot about your own understanding of knowledge:

"This is exactly why many scientists are accepting islam even nowadays and this is exactly what has triggered the golden age in Islamic civilization."

There is a big doubt about what had triggered the golden age of our civilization. And there is certainly some precise reasonings about why it stopped flourishing. However, your view demonstrates in full colours that 'knowledge' to you is simple 'the knowledge of the faith'. That's why you are not able to grasp the meaning of my words. You cannot differentiate your knowledge (that you dont possess) from your faith (that has conquered your mind). Do you know what I am talking about at all?

Do, next time you come here, make sure you got what I mean. Then try to bring an example from the Qur'an to prove me wrong. Let me disappoint you again: you will never succeed. Because the notion does not exist in Qur'an. Knowledge, based on Qur'an, is nothing but awareness of the faith. Anything beyond that is harmful.

And stop repeating yourself. You are getting boring. If there is no example to bring forward (and there is none), don't torture yourself. It is not obligatory to appear here now and again and ridicule yourself.

Bye

Lol Bukharan, thank you for avoiding my question YET AGAIN :)

Where did you get that habbit from? Why cant you just say "Abu-Hafiza, what I am trying to prove is so and so"? Why do you have to ridicule yourself with your ignorance and make funny statements when you are exposed? And why are you so afraid to say "i dont know" to something that you dont know?

Now lets analise your words:

First of all Bukharan, my last post was in all of it's seriosness without even a hint of sarcasm. I told you time and time again that knowledge means knowledge in any language. The knowledge was not classified into "religious knowlege" and "secular knowledge" till centuries after the birth of Islam. Grammatically, historically and in every context knowledge would mean EVERYTHING. Just like Allah says that he has taught (given knowledge) a man what he did not know.


What do you m ean "knowledge of faith in the Qur'an is based on your belief in Allah"? I either do believe in Allah or i do not, what is "the knowledge of faith" in here? How would you measure my "knowledge of faith"? And what do you have to "know" in order to get "faith"? You believe in something once you learn about it, research its signs. Is it logical to say "bukharan has intellegence because I have saw his writings and can see the intellegence in there"? Or is it logical enough to say "There is a petrol in the car, because I have learned that the car would not move without a petrol"? So you can make a conclusion in your belief by studying, learning, gettign knowledge of the signs and the results. This i sexactly why the sciences began in the first place, to understand the creation of God and to affirm your faith. This is what knowledge has with the relation to faith. This is exactly why many scientists are accepting islam even nowadays and this is exactly what has triggered the golden age in Islamic civilization.


No, you are wrong in here as well. Even in the quotes you have provided, Dr Idris (who you have never heard before I am sure, now you are talking about him as if he was your school mate) is saying "you have to know to believ". This is exactly the same thing that I am saying and this is exactly what Allah is saying as well. I have brought you many examples where Allah talks about "giving thought" about universe, plants, ruins of the cities etc. You dismissed them claiming when Allah say "think about it" he means "dont think about it, dont research but believ" which is only your understanding.

I told you that we have to define what knowledge is and I have shown to you in many examples that once you know-u believe. So once you know about the creation, you know the creator as well.



Lol, I thought first you said that Irfaan does not mean knowledge? Admit it, you did not expect that comming. You only learnet about "irfaan in mystycal term" from wikipedia, right?

Lets analize this for you:

First of all, grammatically the word "irfaan" would be closer to "knowledge of faith" then the word ilm as irfaan literally would mean "the knowing".

Secondly the words irfaan in mystical sence only started to be implied after Zunnun al Misri (d. 243/859) categorised the concept in tasawwuf, called Ma'rifatullah and it was Bayazid Bistami (804-874) who made it famous.
It is more then 200 years AFTER the prophet (SAWS) that irfaan or ma'rifa got the mystical meaning as you have implied. This is the same problem you have, you imply words you find from there and here without knowing its history and you get humiliated after that. At least admit that you dont know arabic and stop showing off, give us at least that much.



Examples were given, your explanations were not satifactory. Now will you just once give a straight answer to my question? What are you truing to prove?

[Abu-Hafiza]

Lol bukharan, your loud words with no proof whatsoever really amuse me. Who gave the link to Wiki, me or you? You have demonstrated time and time again that you have no idea what you are talking about. All what you have wrote above is rubish, not worth paying any attention as my previous posts have completely destroyed your logic and understanding and thats why you went personal this time.

The only quote I would like to draw your attention is this:

Knowledge, based on Qur'an, is nothing but awareness of the faith. Anything beyond that is harmful. Any proof for that? Let me ask you specific questions, are according to Qur'an followings considered to be harmful:

Medicine
Architecture
Agriculture
Linguistics
History
Maths
Literature
Business and Economy
Politics

and so on. Or do you not consider the above to be knowledges?

[Bukharan]

Dream on Abu-Hafiza. Even your wording (loud words with no proof) are stolen from my posts. lol. You can live in an everlasting amusement, since that's the way you start all your garbage messages (I'm really amused at this and that). Happy amusement!

But where is the answer?:rolleyes: No proof? Why did you get back then?

Lol bukharan, your loud words with no proof whatsoever really amuse me. Who gave the link to Wiki, me or you? You have demonstrated time and time again that you have no idea what you are talking about. All what you have wrote above is rubish, not worth paying any attention as my previous posts have completely destroyed your logic and understanding and thats why you went personal this time.
Any proof for that? Let me ask you specific questions, are according to Qur'an followings considered to be harmful:

Medicine
Architecture
Agriculture
Linguistics
History
Maths
Literature
Business and Economy
Politics

and so on. Or do you not consider the above to be knowledges?

[Abu-Hafiza]

LOL Bukharan, yet AGAIN you are running from the answers.

I told you time and time again, the proof is provided to you. David was given KNOWLEDGE of making armour, Solomon was given KNOWLEDGE of birds languages and Adam was given the KNOWLEDGE of the names of all things. In there knowledge is not faith my friend and you did nothing to reject any of my claims.

Besides, you have failed to answer a single question I have put forward. Are you calling it a debate?

[Bukharan]

LOL Bukharan, yet AGAIN you are running from the answers.

I told you time and time again, the proof is provided to you. David was given KNOWLEDGE of making armour, Solomon was given KNOWLEDGE of birds languages and Adam was given the KNOWLEDGE of the names of all things. In there knowledge is not faith my friend and you did nothing to reject any of my claims.

Besides, you have failed to answer a single question I have put forward. Are you calling it a debate?

Abu-Hafiza,

Since when you've assumed the role of the Qur'an? I asked you to give us Qur'anic examples, not your vague words. We will take it from there again, if you wish. All the debate is about the question I have put forward. Where is your answer? Of course, it's impossible to have a debate with someone like you.

[Abu-Hafiza]

Bukharan, are you pretending to be funny or you are like that in reality?

I brought you those ayats:
21: 79-80. To Solomon We inspired the (right) understanding of the matter: to each (of them) We gave Judgment and Knowledge; it was Our power that made the hills and the birds celebrate Our praises, with David: it was We Who did (all these things). It was We Who taught him (‘allamnahu gave him the knowledge of ) the making of coats of mail for your benefit, to guard you from each other's violence: will ye then be grateful?

(about the knowledge given to king David on making armours etc)

27:16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught (ullimna, were given the knowledge) the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"

2: 31. And He taught (‘allama, gave knowledge to) Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

Dont brush it away as saying "the word is taught" as I have already explained you that the words here are the same as ilm derived from alama. Besides about David and Solomon Allah first mentiones that he gave JUSTICE and KNOWLEDGE (ilm) and then describes that he gave knowledge of making armours.

So disprove these?

And yet again, my questions above remain unanswered, why are you scared to go into those waters?

The only quote I would like to draw your attention is this:

Knowledge, based on Qur'an, is nothing but awareness of the faith. Anything beyond that is harmful.
Any proof for that? Let me ask you specific questions, are according to Qur'an followings considered to be harmful:

Medicine
Architecture
Agriculture
Linguistics
History
Maths
Literature
Business and Economy
Politics

and so on. Or do you not consider the above to be knowledges?



If you dont answer them you will show everyone that you only talk loud and rubbish.

Oh yes, regarding me "stealing" the words from you, have you patented your words? I did not know you invented the phrases or have exclusive rights to use them :lool:

[Bukharan]

Good! At last Abu-Hafiza came up with some material to work on. We’ll be prepared to accept his allegation, but only after scrutinizing each of the ayats:

21: 79-80.

And We made Solomon to understand (the case); and unto each of them We gave judgment and knowledge. And we subdued the hills and the birds to hymn (His) praise along with David. We were the doers (thereof). (79) And We taught him the art of making garments (of mail) to protect you in your daring. Are ye then thankful? (80)</SPAN>

فَفَهَّمۡنَـٰهَا سُلَيۡمَـٰنَ*ۚ وَڪُلاًّ ءَاتَيۡنَا حُكۡمً۬ا وَعِلۡمً۬ا*ۚ وَسَخَّرۡنَا مَعَ دَاوُ ۥدَ ٱلۡجِبَالَ يُسَبِّحۡنَ وَٱلطَّيۡرَ*ۚ وَڪُنَّا فَـٰعِلِينَ (٧٩) وَعَلَّمۡنَـٰهُ صَنۡعَةَ لَبُوسٍ۬ لَّڪُمۡ لِتُحۡصِنَكُم مِّنۢ بَأۡسِكُمۡ*ۖ فَهَلۡ أَنتُمۡ شَـٰكِرُونَ

In the ayats above the word ‘knowledge’ (‘ilm) exists indeed. But it is accompanied with hukm (judgment). Judgment could be given to those who got a certain firm belief about the universe and base their knowledge on that belief and also draw their judgments from that belief. Thus, is the knowledge mentioned in the first ayat the same notion we have in our contemporary world? Certainly. Not. Our knowledge does not come necessarily with judgment. It could be only knowledge of the faith that provides its bearer with the ‘vigor’ to judge.

Furthermore, the next sentence confirms our suspicion by adding: ‘we subdued the hills and the birds to hymn (His) praise along with David.’ That means, the knowledge has been given to David and Soloman to praise Allah. Is it the knowledge of the faith? Certainly yes, it is.

In the next ayat Allah teaches David the art of making garments. Note, the word is not ‘knowledge’ (‘ilm), but ‘taught him’ (‘allamahu). Was it a knowledge (‘ilm) being taught to David? No, the ayat says ‘san’at’ (art). Why was it taught to David? To make him thankful. To whom? Of course to Allah. Summary: David had been taught the art of making garments in order to be grateful to Allah. So, where is the ‘knowledge’ we are looking for? It’s not here.

Let’s try the next one. We might find it there.

Bukharan, are you pretending to be funny or you are like that in reality?

I brought you those ayats:
21: 79-80. To Solomon We inspired the (right) understanding of the matter: to each (of them) We gave Judgment and Knowledge; it was Our power that made the hills and the birds celebrate Our praises, with David: it was We Who did (all these things). It was We Who taught him (‘allamnahu gave him the knowledge of ) the making of coats of mail for your benefit, to guard you from each other's violence: will ye then be grateful?

(about the knowledge given to king David on making armours etc)

27:16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught (ullimna, were given the knowledge) the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"

2: 31. And He taught (‘allama, gave knowledge to) Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

Dont brush it away as saying "the word is taught" as I have already explained you that the words here are the same as ilm derived from alama. Besides about David and Solomon Allah first mentiones that he gave JUSTICE and KNOWLEDGE (ilm) and then describes that he gave knowledge of making armours.

So disprove these?

And yet again, my questions above remain unanswered, why are you scared to go into those waters?



If you dont answer them you will show everyone that you only talk loud and rubbish.

Oh yes, regarding me "stealing" the words from you, have you patented your words? I did not know you invented the phrases or have exclusive rights to use them :lool:

[Bukharan]

27:16
And Solomon was David's heir. And he said: O mankind! Lo! we have been taught the language of birds, and have been given (abundance) of all things. This surely is evident favour.

وَوَرِثَ سُلَيۡمَـٰنُ دَاوُ ۥدَ*ۖ وَقَالَ يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ عُلِّمۡنَا مَنطِقَ ٱلطَّيۡرِ وَأُوتِينَا مِن كُلِّ شَىۡءٍ*ۖ إِنَّ هَـٰذَا لَهُوَ ٱلۡفَضۡلُ ٱلۡمُبِينُ

In the ayat above we cannot see the word ‘knowledge’ again. Abu-Hafiza’s suggestion is to consider ‘ullimna’ (have been taught) as the equivalent of ‘knowledge’. As Russians say, на безрыбье, и мясо рыба.

Solomon and David have been taught what? Mantiq-at-tayr (the language of birds). Does it sound like a science? Perhaps, in the ancient world; a kind of sorcery that Allah detests in the other part of the Qur’an. People who could understand the language of birds were known as magicians. And if there was any need to understand their language, God woud have bestowed all of us with this magic capability.

Ok, even if we accept it as a knowledge, what was the purpose to learn it? To make a use of yet another evident favour by Allah (This surely is evident favour).Does it resort to our faith again? Yes. Is knowledge (as we understand it now) involved in the context of the ayat. Not at all.

Let’s go further then. The last bit of Abu-Hafiza’s evidence might prove us wrong.

[Bukharan]

2: 31. And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.

وَعَلَّمَ ءَادَمَ ٱلۡأَسۡمَآءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَہُمۡ عَلَى ٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنۢبِـُٔونِى بِأَسۡمَآءِ هَـٰٓؤُلَآءِ إِن كُنتُمۡ صَـٰدِقِينَ

Yet again we face the word ‘allama’ (taught) instead of ‘ilm (knowledge). Whereas we know that they belong to two different linguistic categories – verb and noun – and could not be seen as each other’s substitute in no condition. Well, bearing in mind that famous Russian proverb we will try not to be very strict even this time. Let’s examine what it is about at all.

He (Allah – I wonder, why He talks about himself in the third person) taught Adam all the names. Then He wanted to show off his new creature in front of angels. He took Adam to angels to examine them. (Poor angels were not informed of the names, and certainly they would fail the examination). He asked them: ”Can you tell me the names? If you are truthful, you can inform me.” Again, knowing all the names comes across with being truthful. Truthful to what? To their faith in Allah? Most certainly. So, does it mean that knowledge and faith are twisted again in the Qur’anic context? Most certainly.

Well, Abu-Hafiza, I am sorry, but all your evidence is left in tatters. None of them contain the word ‘knowledge’ in its contemporary understanding. Whereas, if you remember, you had told me that the following list of sciences is mentioned in the Qur’an as ‘useful knowledge’:

Medicine
Architecture
Agriculture
Linguistics
History
Maths
Literature
Business and Economy
Politics

Why didn’t you bring at least one example where they are mentioned in Qur’an? Can you do that now?

[Abu-Hafiza]

Lol, bukharan, you amaze me.

Let us analise:
21: 79-80.

And We made Solomon to understand (the case); and unto each of them We gave judgment and knowledge. And we subdued the hills and the birds to hymn (His) praise along with David. We were the doers (thereof). (79) And We taught him the art of making garments (of mail) to protect you in your daring. Are ye then thankful? (80)</SPAN>

فَفَهَّمۡنَـٰهَا سُلَيۡمَـٰنَ*ۚ وَڪُلاًّ ءَاتَيۡنَا حُكۡمً۬ا وَعِلۡمً۬ا*ۚ وَسَخَّرۡنَا مَعَ دَاوُ ۥدَ ٱلۡجِبَالَ يُسَبِّحۡنَ وَٱلطَّيۡرَ*ۚ وَڪُنَّا فَـٰعِلِينَ (٧٩)وَعَلَّمۡنَـٰهُ صَنۡعَةَ لَبُوسٍ۬ لَّڪُمۡ لِتُحۡصِنَكُم مِّنۢ بَأۡسِكُمۡ*ۖ فَهَلۡ أَنتُمۡ شَـٰكِرُونَ

In the ayats above the word ‘knowledge’ (‘ilm) exists indeed. But it is accompanied with hukm (judgment). Judgment could be given to those who got a certain firm belief about the universe and base their knowledge on that belief and also draw their judgments from that belief. Thus, is the knowledge mentioned in the first ayat the same notion we have in our contemporary world? Certainly. Not. Our knowledge does not come necessarily with judgment. It could be only knowledge of the faith that provides its bearer with the ‘vigor’ to judge.

Furthermore, the next sentence confirms our suspicion by adding: ‘we subdued the hills and the birds to hymn (His) praise along with David.’ That means, the knowledge has been given to David and Soloman to praise Allah. Is it the knowledge of the faith? Certainly yes, it is.

In the next ayat Allah teaches David the art of making garments. Note, the word is not ‘knowledge’ (‘ilm), but ‘taught him’ (‘allamahu). Was it a knowledge (‘ilm) being taught to David? No, the ayat says ‘san’at’ (art). Why was it taught to David? To make him thankful. To whom? Of course to Allah. Summary: David had been taught the art of making garments in order to be grateful to Allah. So, where is the ‘knowledge’ we are looking for? It’s not here.


At least you could have read previous ayats, you would write something completely different.

judgement here is nothing less then ruling in the court that Solomon and David gave in the case of the man complaining about the other mans animal going into his field. Knowledge is elloborated in the next ayats, including the make of amrour. It does not say "we have taught them faith" as both solomon and David are prophets already with faith.

so all your words about knowledge in relations to judgement are baseless and off topic completely, besides you dont make any sence at all. So you are saying that the judges in courts base their judgement on devine belief? So are you saying that the law is faith, as in our days all the judgements in courts are made based on the law.

And regarding the next statement, so you claim that the art of making the armour is NOT a knowledge? Allah gave the knowledge in order to be grateful to Allah, what is illogical here? The graritude is connected the the faith but not the knowledge itself. Knowledge is a gift, a tool man.

So the first proof still stands and your logic in twisting this aya did not work.

Next ayah:

27:16
And Solomon was David's heir. And he said: O mankind! Lo! we have been taught the language of birds, and have been given (abundance) of all things. This surely is evident favour.

وَوَرِثَ سُلَيۡمَـٰنُ دَاوُ ۥدَ*ۖ وَقَالَ يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ عُلِّمۡنَا مَنطِقَ ٱلطَّيۡرِ وَأُوتِينَا مِن كُلِّ شَىۡءٍ*ۖ إِنَّ هَـٰذَا لَهُوَ ٱلۡفَضۡلُ ٱلۡمُبِينُ

In the ayat above we cannot see the word ‘knowledge’ again. Abu-Hafiza’s suggestion is to consider ‘ullimna’ (have been taught) as the equivalent of ‘knowledge’. As Russians say, на безрыбье, и мясо рыба.

Solomon and David have been taught what? Mantiq-at-tayr (the language of birds). Does it sound like a science? Perhaps, in the ancient world; a kind of sorcery that Allah detests in the other part of the Qur’an. People who could understand the language of birds were known as magicians. And if there was any need to understand their language, God woud have bestowed all of us with this magic capability.

Ok, even if we accept it as a knowledge, what was the purpose to learn it? To make a use of yet another evident favour by Allah (This surely is evident favour).Does it resort to our faith again? Yes. Is knowledge (as we understand it now) involved in the context of the ayat. Not at all.

LOL you dont make sence man. Sorcery? A prophet a magician? The same one whom Allah said that he was NOT a magitian and that jinns tried to slander him? And the language of animals is not knowledge? Do you think that hundreds of scientists are wasting their time? In here (http://linguistlist.org/issues/17/17-1528.html) there is a whole debate about that issue, are all of them wasting their time?

Here is the whole project deticated to animal language and communication http://acp.eugraph.com/ It is you who is restricting the knowledge, not Qur'an.
furthermore, Sulayman was given the KNOWLEDGE, not FAITH. If Sulayman was given the knowledge of nuclear physics you would still claim it is not a knowledge as Allah demands faith. Allah does demand faith and gives knowledge for us to reach the natural conclusion, which is accepting Allah as the creator.

Now, this once again proves that Qur'an is NOT against the knowledge and this ayat clearly shows you that our contemprorairy knowledge is not in the same line with sorcery at all.

Next ayat:

2: 31. And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.

وَعَلَّمَ ءَادَمَ ٱلۡأَسۡمَآءَ كُلَّهَا ثُمَّ عَرَضَہُمۡ عَلَى ٱلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةِ فَقَالَ أَنۢبِـُٔونِى بِأَسۡمَآءِ هَـٰٓؤُلَآءِ إِن كُنتُمۡ صَـٰدِقِينَ

Yet again we face the word ‘allama’ (taught) instead of ‘ilm (knowledge). Whereas we know that they belong to two different linguistic categories – verb and noun – and could not be seen as each other’s substitute in no condition. Well, bearing in mind that famous Russian proverb we will try not to be very strict even this time. Let’s examine what it is about at all.


Nice try Mr Linguist-Arabist, but it would not work. You have accepted the same ward, "allama" when you were trying to reject surah Alaq, where it was saying "allama bil qalam" (taught by the pen). Besides you were bringing the evidences where you mentioned words "people of knowledge" where in qur'an it did not say "rijalul ilm" but "alim". You were even bringing the words like "g'aib" trying to pass that as knowledge. The proper translation of the word "allama" would be to "give ilm" or to "give knowledge".

Besides, when you teach names, are you not giving the knowledge of things?
He (Allah – I wonder, why He talks about himself in the third person) taught Adam all the names. Then He wanted to show off his new creature in front of angels. He took Adam to angels to examine them. (Poor angels were not informed of the names, and certainly they would fail the examination). He asked them: ”Can you tell me the names? If you are truthful, you can inform me.” Again, knowing all the names comes across with being truthful. Truthful to what? To their faith in Allah? Most certainly. So, does it mean that knowledge and faith are twisted again in the Qur’anic context? Most certainly.

Do you READ before you post man? Truthfulness here is the claims of angels that man is not capable of being the "halif" of allah on earth. So Allah has shown them that humans can know more then angels and that Allah knows everything, more then anyone. Faith? Are you saying that teaching the names is making adam or agels to believe in Allah? They already have faith. And your rethorics and insults to the ayats (using phrases poor angels etc) shows your level of intellect and your level of adab.

Bukharan, one main thing is that Qur'an is the book of faith so as I said, even if Allah was explaining in details the nuclear fusion in modern scientific language you would still claim that it is faith. You would say "oh look, he is saying this so that we believed in him, so that is faith" which is silly. You yourself are proving once again that the knowledge we get today can be used to prove the faith. The above-mentioned examples and your replies only inform us that knowledge in worldly matters is given in order to accept, praice and worship Allah. So Allah DOES NOT RESTRICT THE KNOWLEDGE OF SCIENCES.

If the knowledge you gain does not lead you to believe in the Creator, then your heart is blind and sealed. It is the same as out of ego not accepting the evidences that the earth spins around the sun. You are acting the same way first claiming something, when proven wrong you go around and reject all the evidences provided.

Whereas, if you remember, you had told me that the following list of sciences is mentioned in the Qur’an as ‘useful knowledge’:

Medicine
Architecture
Agriculture
Linguistics
History
Maths
Literature
Business and Economy
Politics

Why didn’t you bring at least one example where they are mentioned in Qur’an? Can you do that now?

Can you read man? Or should I start teahcing you english as well? This was the QUESTION directed to you, why dont you answer? You claim that EVERYTHING besides knowledge of faith in qur'an is harmful, so I am asking, are above-mentioned sciences also harmful in Qur'an?

And where is the evidence that everything besides that is harmful? bring me one ayat where it says that "any knowledge apart from the knowledge if faith is harmful"? So my friend, you have to try harder and harder ;)

[Royal]

bir misolde endi buharian tasvirida:

- В стакане с водкой оптимист видит 40% спирта, а пессимист - 60% воды...

[Bukharan]

Abu-Hafiza,

Don't overdo while replying to me. You are a well-known case study in religious debates and you never add a fresh dot in your postings. The same old arrogant student with the same rhetoric that magically can change the verb 'to teach' into 'to give knowledge' in order to prove his baseless claim, but to no avail. Never in the book you can find the word 'knowledge' in its contemporary understanding. That's the end of story.

Besides, you've been trying to prove that a complete list of sciences has been mentioned in the Qur'an as useful knowledges. But is there any evidence? Of course not. Otherwise the thread could have been bombarded by now.

The question has been completely and utterly explained and no evidence has been put forward by you and your numerous cronies to back up your empty claim.

Now relax and have a nice time off.

Lol, bukharan, you amaze me.

Let us analise:


At least you could have read previous ayats, you would write something completely different.

judgement here is nothing less then ruling in the court that Solomon and David gave in the case of the man complaining about the other mans animal going into his field. Knowledge is elloborated in the next ayats, including the make of amrour. It does not say "we have taught them faith" as both solomon and David are prophets already with faith.

so all your words about knowledge in relations to judgement are baseless and off topic completely, besides you dont make any sence at all. So you are saying that the judges in courts base their judgement on devine belief? So are you saying that the law is faith, as in our days all the judgements in courts are made based on the law.

And regarding the next statement, so you claim that the art of making the armour is NOT a knowledge? Allah gave the knowledge in order to be grateful to Allah, what is illogical here? The graritude is connected the the faith but not the knowledge itself. Knowledge is a gift, a tool man.

So the first proof still stands and your logic in twisting this aya did not work.

Next ayah:



LOL you dont make sence man. Sorcery? A prophet a magician? The same one whom Allah said that he was NOT a magitian and that jinns tried to slander him? And the language of animals is not knowledge? Do you think that hundreds of scientists are wasting their time? In here (http://linguistlist.org/issues/17/17-1528.html) there is a whole debate about that issue, are all of them wasting their time?

Here is the whole project deticated to animal language and communication http://acp.eugraph.com/ It is you who is restricting the knowledge, not Qur'an.
furthermore, Sulayman was given the KNOWLEDGE, not FAITH. If Sulayman was given the knowledge of nuclear physics you would still claim it is not a knowledge as Allah demands faith. Allah does demand faith and gives knowledge for us to reach the natural conclusion, which is accepting Allah as the creator.

Now, this once again proves that Qur'an is NOT against the knowledge and this ayat clearly shows you that our contemprorairy knowledge is not in the same line with sorcery at all.

Next ayat:



Nice try Mr Linguist-Arabist, but it would not work. You have accepted the same ward, "allama" when you were trying to reject surah Alaq, where it was saying "allama bil qalam" (taught by the pen). Besides you were bringing the evidences where you mentioned words "people of knowledge" where in qur'an it did not say "rijalul ilm" but "alim". You were even bringing the words like "g'aib" trying to pass that as knowledge. The proper translation of the word "allama" would be to "give ilm" or to "give knowledge".

Besides, when you teach names, are you not giving the knowledge of things?


Do you READ before you post man? Truthfulness here is the claims of angels that man is not capable of being the "halif" of allah on earth. So Allah has shown them that humans can know more then angels and that Allah knows everything, more then anyone. Faith? Are you saying that teaching the names is making adam or agels to believe in Allah? They already have faith. And your rethorics and insults to the ayats (using phrases poor angels etc) shows your level of intellect and your level of adab.

Bukharan, one main thing is that Qur'an is the book of faith so as I said, even if Allah was explaining in details the nuclear fusion in modern scientific language you would still claim that it is faith. You would say "oh look, he is saying this so that we believed in him, so that is faith" which is silly. You yourself are proving once again that the knowledge we get today can be used to prove the faith. The above-mentioned examples and your replies only inform us that knowledge in worldly matters is given in order to accept, praice and worship Allah. So Allah DOES NOT RESTRICT THE KNOWLEDGE OF SCIENCES.

If the knowledge you gain does not lead you to believe in the Creator, then your heart is blind and sealed. It is the same as out of ego not accepting the evidences that the earth spins around the sun. You are acting the same way first claiming something, when proven wrong you go around and reject all the evidences provided.



Can you read man? Or should I start teahcing you english as well? This was the QUESTION directed to you, why dont you answer? You claim that EVERYTHING besides knowledge of faith in qur'an is harmful, so I am asking, are above-mentioned sciences also harmful in Qur'an?

And where is the evidence that everything besides that is harmful? bring me one ayat where it says that "any knowledge apart from the knowledge if faith is harmful"? So my friend, you have to try harder and harder ;)

[Bukharan]

bir misolde endi buharian tasvirida:

- В стакане с водкой оптимист видит 40% спирта, а пессимист - 60% воды...

Если стакан больше пуст, чем полон (60% против 40%), более реалистично подчеркнуть и выявлять пустую половину стакана.

[Abu-Hafiza]

Two days of absence and extensive research didnt help you bring anything new? :D

LOL thank you Bukharan for so openly admitting that you have run out of all the options and that it is YOU who dont have any proofs to your claim that "any knowledge besides knowledge of faith (whatever it might mean) is HARMFUL". You could not provide a single proof that Qur'an would regard the sciences as we know off today as harmful (apart from your twist of sorcery that brakes relations between husband and wife as chemistry), you could not even identify what knowledge really means, you lied over and over again, you accepted words when you liked them (especially passing the word ghaib as knowledge) but rejecting them when they destroy your whole shabby defence mechanism.

You claimed you have read Qur'an many times in three different languages, well, you did not even know what the ayats I have provided were talking about and funnily enough all your claims are based on the knowlege you could dig out from wikipedia (the example of irfan and your ignorance of its origins in islamic terms and only link from wikipedia was the example of it).

Now, once you claimed that I believe and that study knowledge and it is supposed to be vise versa, you gain knowledge ad then believe. It looks like you are ignorant of the scientific method. You first make a belief "hypotheses", then with the research you formulate your belief in "theory" and only after that you prove it with tests, thus gain further knowledge. It is actually what you have done in this thread, without realising it. You made a blank claim, believed in it and tried to prove it, but unfortunately for you your hypotheses did not even reach the level of theory.

Even the tatic of your debate is the one where you only hang onto the small details, turn a blind eye to all the evidences, ignore the questions and just make a noise claiming that you have answered everything while in fact you could not even give one straight forward answer to straight forward question. By the way, you even tried to twist the question with accusations that questioner is actually claiming something he did not.

So I would advice you to make more research with open mind first (and dont go around saying that I dont have open mind, you dont know my past or my present or how I came to believ what I believe) read some history, study the religious side of those you claimed to be "gnostic, questioning, almost atheist-like" scholars and scientist and maybe then you will change your mind.

Or at least whatever you chose to believe do not go into debates on the subjects you have no idea about as Mr Google and Mr Wiki combined would not be always able to help you sound intellegent.

Peace

PS: if I was like you are I would say "the words "magically changed" are stolen from my posts" :lool:

[Bukharan]

:D
Does it mean that your long absence (3 weeks, instead of promised 2 weeks) was really dedicated to research? lol. And what was the result? Same old nonsense, nah?

I just popped in today after a lovely holiday. (I'm sure you noticed my absence in all other sections too). And as said earlier, you have nothing new to add, therefore, your posts are being skimmed only. If by any chance you got something new to say, please earmark it as 'NEW'. Then you'll get my full attention. Otherwise, do not distub yourself by repeating yourself.

Bye;)

Two days of absence and extensive research didnt help you bring anything new? :D

LOL thank you Bukharan for so openly admitting that you have run out of all the options and that it is YOU who dont have any proofs to your claim that "any knowledge besides knowledge of faith (whatever it might mean) is HARMFUL". You could not provide a single proof that Qur'an would regard the sciences as we know off today as harmful (apart from your twist of sorcery that brakes relations between husband and wife as chemistry), you could not even identify what knowledge really means, you lied over and over again, you accepted words when you liked them (especially passing the word ghaib as knowledge) but rejecting them when they destroy your whole shabby defence mechanism.

You claimed you have read Qur'an many times in three different languages, well, you did not even know what the ayats I have provided were talking about and funnily enough all your claims are based on the knowlege you could dig out from wikipedia (the example of irfan and your ignorance of its origins in islamic terms and only link from wikipedia was the example of it).

Now, once you claimed that I believe and that study knowledge and it is supposed to be vise versa, you gain knowledge ad then believe. It looks like you are ignorant of the scientific method. You first make a belief "hypotheses", then with the research you formulate your belief in "theory" and only after that you prove it with tests, thus gain further knowledge.

Even the tatic of your debate is the one where you only hang onto the small details, turn a blind eye to all the evidences, ignore the questions and just make a noise claiming that you have answered everything while in fact you could not even give one straight forward answer to straight forward question. By the way, you even tried to twist the question with accusations that questioner is actually claiming something he did not.

So I would advice you to make more research with open mind first (and dont go around saying that I dont have open mind, you dont know my past or my present or how I came to believ what I believe) read some history, study the religious side of those you claimed to be "gnostic, questioning, almost atheist-like" scholars and scientist and maybe then you will change your mind.

Or at least whatever you chose to believe do not go into debates on the subjects you have no idea about as Mr Google and Mr Wiki combined would not be always able to help you sound intellegent.

Peace

PS: if I was like you are I would say "the words "magically changed" are stolen from my posts" :lool:

[Abu-Hafiza]

:D
Does it mean that your long absence (3 weeks, instead of promised 2 weeks) was really dedicated to research? lol. And what was the result? Same old nonsense, nah?

I just popped in today after a lovely holiday. (I'm sure you noticed my absence in all other sections too). And as said earlier, you have nothing new to add, therefore, your posts are being skimmed only. If by any chance you got something new to say, please earmark it as 'NEW'. Then you'll get my full attention. Otherwise, do not distub yourself by repeating yourself.

Bye;)

No, I was "stealing" your remarks you made about my absence on holiday (and then katching up with work) and it is YOU who still could not put your head around and think of any answers to my questions or at least have a dignity to addmit that your "interpretations" of the ayats I have provided were false without even you knowing the context of those ayats.

So nothing new from your side and my challenge remains unanswered, that shows your humiliation, i.e. "prove me that quran prohibits sciences today" or "prove me that in quran knowledge as it is known today considered to be harmful".

You asked for proofs, proofs were provided, you failed in twisting them around and now it is your time to try and prove the claims you have made

PS, could you kindly show me anything NEW in your posts? :lool:

[Bukharan]

During skimming your latest post I noticed the word 'dignity'. What do you know about it, Abu-Hafiza? A person who keeps lying in order to prove his fanatical belief would be impotent of explaining the notion, don't you think so? And I see that kind of person in you. Why? Because you are distorting the Qor'an just because you want to impose it on others. You are trying to make it acceptible for different mindsets. But you are paying a very high price for that: your human dignity.

It's better to accept the facts that the Qur'an has got a particular understanding of the word 'knowledge' (that's the knowledge of the faith and the knowledge based on the faith). Actually, this is your own understanding of the term too, hence bewildered about my questions. You tried a lot indeed. You dug the Qur'an in and out to find at least one instance where the word 'knowledge' implies our contemporary understanding of the term. You did not succeed. If you enjoyed some level of dignity you would have given up lying then and there. But no. You keep doing that for the sake of your stoned belief. What could it be called, if not fanaticism?

How could have you proved me wrong? By giving at least one Qur'anic example where the word knowledge has come in its proper definition. You failed. You think a number of sciences are known as 'useful' by the Qur'an. Did you provide us with a Qur'anic quote about them? No, you didn't, simply because it does not exist.

You don't have to be too tough on yourself. Just accept the realities and be happy with it, if that's what you've chosen.

No, I was "stealing" your remarks you made about my absence on holiday (and then katching up with work) and it is YOU who still could not put your head around and think of any answers to my questions or at least have a dignity to addmit that your "interpretations" of the ayats I have provided were false without even you knowing the context of those ayats.

So nothing new from your side and my challenge remains unanswered, that shows your humiliation, i.e. "prove me that quran prohibits sciences today" or "prove me that in quran knowledge as it is known today considered to be harmful".

You asked for proofs, proofs were provided, you failed in twisting them around and now it is your time to try and prove the claims you have made

PS, could you kindly show me anything NEW in your posts? :lool:

[Bukharan]

Abu-Hafiza,

You seem to be in an eternal search for humiliation. You can satisfy yourself by reading the quote by Einstein about 'genuine religiosity'. That's his suggestion. If you want to be genuinely religious, try to follow his advice:

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. In this sense I believe that the priest must become a teacher if he wishes to do justice to his lofty educational mission."

[Abu-Hafiza]

Nice try Bukharan, but noone would believe a word you say from now on.

first of all, show me one word I have lied about qur'an and I will show at least 5 instances where you have lied.

Secondly, all the evidences were provided by me, you did not even care to reply to them saying funny things like "teach is not knowledge", I ask you, how would you search for the word "allama" and "ilm" in any arabic dictionary?

Thirdly, do not twist my words. I have asked you a question to which you have not provided answers. PLEASE NOTE, I AM NOT PROVIDING YOU THE LIST FROM THE QUR'AN BUT ASKING YOU THE STRAIGHT FORWARD ANSWER (i wrote it in caps and highlighted them so that you finally see)

ACCORDING TO YOU (and pay attention to the first three words in the beginning of this very sentence), are the sciences and knowledges in things like linguistics, medicine, agriculture, history etc (the same subjects I have already mentioned) considered to be harmful in qur'an? If yes then where? YOU CLAIMED THAT ANYTHING BESIDES FAITH KNOWLEDGE (which the word itself doesnt make any sense) is HARMFUL in qur'an, didnt you? Now prove that claim.

Please note that it is not your ignorance about the concept of knowledge in the qur'an that created all these debates but your claim that quran consideres it harmful, so prove your claim if you are truthful

Besides, my idea of knowledge is shared and backed by oxford dictionary, plato, scientific method, richard kirkham and many others and yours are only supported by your senseless bragging and loud shouts with no meaning.

[Bukharan]

Another lie: 'no one would believe a word Bukharan says from now on'.:lol: Are you assuming God's mission now or have you been entertaining yourself with sorcery lately? As far as I know, sorcery must be baaad, real bad for you. So, stop spoiling your soul dude.

Instead, have a look at the following saying, again by Albert Einstein. You might learn something new:

"The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death.
It is therefore easy to see why the churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees."


Nice try Bukharan, but noone would believe a word you say from now on.

first of all, show me one word I have lied about qur'an and I will show at least 5 instances where you have lied.

Secondly, all the evidences were provided by me, you did not even care to reply to them saying funny things like "teach is not knowledge", I ask you, how would you search for the word "allama" and "ilm" in any arabic dictionary?

Thirdly, do not twist my words. I have asked you a question to which you have not provided answers. PLEASE NOTE, I AM NOT PROVIDING YOU THE LIST FROM THE QUR'AN BUT ASKING YOU THE STRAIGHT FORWARD ANSWER (i wrote it in caps and highlighted them so that you finally see)

ACCORDING TO YOU (and pay attention to the first three words in the beginning of this very sentence), are the sciences and knowledges in things like linguistics, medicine, agriculture, history etc (the same subjects I have already mentioned) considered to be harmful in qur'an? If yes then where? YOU CLAIMED THAT ANYTHING BESIDES FAITH KNOWLEDGE (which the word itself doesnt make any sense) is HARMFUL in qur'an, didnt you? Now prove that claim.

Please note that it is not your ignorance about the concept of knowledge in the qur'an that created all these debates but your claim that quran consideres it harmful, so prove your claim if you are truthful

Besides, my idea of knowledge is shared and backed by oxford dictionary, plato, scientific method, richard kirkham and many others and yours are only supported by your senseless bragging and loud shouts with no meaning.

[Bukharan]

Can there be any doubt that, during the last twenty five centuries, Buddha, Christ or Mohammed have been the most honoured, idolised, adored, discussed and talked about figures in history? The erudite who made them the objects of their studies, laudatory or critical, are nowhere seen in the resplendence which surrounds them.

Even the greatest among secular geniuses emit only a feeble glow in comparison, and their works make a poor show beside the popularity of the Bible, the Quran, the Bhagavad Gita or the Discourses of Buddha. Why do the personalities and the utterances of the enlightened command such lasting devotion from the human heart? There must be a reason for it.

The argument that this idolisation and homage do not emanate from the disciplined mind of scholars but from the superstitious fears of the commoners does not change the position...since the scholars themselves depend for their own authority on the same spontaneous approval and instinctive recognition of their worth by the crowd.

Wonder of the Brain; G.Krishna. Publ: FIND Research Trust 1972

[Abu-Hafiza]

LOL Bukharan, is it so hard to say i dont know? :lool:

Einstain is talking about church and christianity, not the quran
Another lie: 'no one would believe a word Bukharan says from now on'.:lol: Are you assuming God's mission now or have you been entertaining yourself with sorcery lately? As far as I know, sorcery must be baaad, real bad for you. So, stop spoiling your soul dude.

Instead, have a look at the following saying, again by Albert Einstein. You might learn something new:

"The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death.
It is therefore easy to see why the churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees."

[Bukharan]

LOL Bukharan, is it so hard to say i dont know? :lool:

Einstain is talking about church and christianity, not the quran


You have to acquaint yourself with some terms Abu-Hafiza. By 'church' Einstein means religion in general. I'm sure you haven't read his famous 'Religion and Science'. Otherwise, you wouldn't have yelled that silly shout:)

Don't worry, I'm not going to ask for proofs again. Because they don't exist and your lecture about 'useful' knowledge in the Qor'an makes me laugh now. Remember that lengthy list of sciences?:lol:

[Bukharan]

I didn't know it was your birthday today Abu-Hafiza. Congrats and sorry if I spoilt your party mood. Will refrain from further aggravating it, of course. My future posts during the day will not be addressed personally to you. I will resume it later of course:) So, you can make the most out of it and post whatever you wish, unchallenged.

[Abu-Hafiza]

LOL, I did not know Einstein was the athority in Qur'an. You do realise that you are going off topic, arent you? Are words of einstein about church are your proofs that Quran (and i want to underline Qur'an) is against knowledge? Dont be ridiculous. Islam has never burned anyone alive for claiming that earth rotates around the sun, islam has never sent the world into dark ages, I believe that if not for islam, people like Einstein would not even exist.

OK, above three posts of yours are completely off topic and you still have failed to prove your claims. You could not even show one passage where I lied and YOU accusing ME of lieing? LOL, we have a saying "a thief is the first to shout out "catch the thief"". It is actually proven that you have lied and so far you did not do anything to disprove that (apart from shedding your victimized tears in complaints and suggestions board :lool:)

You do realise that further you delay the answers and proofs, more clearly you addmit that you talk nonsense and and admit your defeat, dont you?

[Black]

Eeeee, Hafizani otasi, hali ham shu gapga tushunmas bilan gaplashib o'tiribmisiz, qoyilman sizning asablaringizga.

[Bukharan]

Abu-Hafiza,

Hopefully you enjoyed your birthday party, no matter how bitter was the taste you experienced at the beginning of it, I mean, here.

As for Einstein, I regard him as one of the brightest personalities in history and his thoughts about religion and its correlation with science could not be considered off top here, of course.

But they were not addressed to you at all. Your case is over: you could not prove that the word 'knowledge' in its Qur'anic context is anything different that the knowledge of the faith or the faith itself. It is a special kind of knowledge based on your faith. Actually you admitted that your own understanding of the word 'knowledge' is the same, right? Or would you give us your own definition of the word 'knowledge' again? Maybe a bit more refined than before? It's up to you anyway.

Once again: you are not the only addressee of the thread and do not believe your illusion that whatever posted here should be taken as a PM. Nope. You are a gone issue, as said. Because you have nothing new to add Abu. Hence, your loud weeping and offensive tone left unheeded by me.

All the best.

LOL, I did not know Einstein was the athority in Qur'an. You do realise that you are going off topic, arent you? Are words of einstein about church are your proofs that Quran (and i want to underline Qur'an) is against knowledge? Dont be ridiculous. Islam has never burned anyone alive for claiming that earth rotates around the sun, islam has never sent the world into dark ages, I believe that if not for islam, people like Einstein would not even exist.

OK, above three posts of yours are completely off topic and you still have failed to prove your claims. You could not even show one passage where I lied and YOU accusing ME of lieing? LOL, we have a saying "a thief is the first to shout out "catch the thief"". It is actually proven that you have lied and so far you did not do anything to disprove that (apart from shedding your victimized tears in complaints and suggestions board :lool:)

You do realise that further you delay the answers and proofs, more clearly you addmit that you talk nonsense and and admit your defeat, dont you?

[Abu-Hafiza]

First of all Bukharan, it is you who has to define what knowledge is. With all your twisting and turning the words, you cannot go far.

Secondly, I have proven to you time and time again that knowledge of David, Adam and Solomon in those specific concepts are knowledge of specific sciences. Your "interpretations" of those ayats were very uneducated. You did not even know what the ayats are talking about, could not even be bothered to read 1 ayat before the quotation. So in academic terms you have failed once again.

Thirdly, you have not proved (and you cannot prove anyways) that sciences, the seeking of knowledge is considered to be harmful in Qur'an, this i sthe main point.

You couldnt even prove that I was lieing about ayats while I can claim with rock hard solid evidence that you only depend on lies, twists, slanders when you try to prove your point.

Forthly, einstein quote is completely off topic. the thread that you have started is called "Knowledge in Koran" as named by yourself and the whole thread is about Qur'an, not what einstein thinks about religion.

Fifthly, you dont even know what you mean when you say "knowledge of faith". It is your biggest contradiction of terms. First you say that belief is something you do without knowledge, then you say that there is somehting called "knowledge" in faith.

Besides you have not specified what the term "knowledge" itself means while I have provided you with the proof from academical sources and from plato. So it is YOU who has distorted understanding of what knowledge actually means. Your ignorance of Qur'an (although you claim to have read it "many times in three different languages") and your ignorance of Arabic, not mentioning history of Islam is truely astonishing. Stop relying on wiki for everything man :D

And lastly, it is your case that doesnt stand the ground at all. You have failed to prove even a single word that came out of your mouth. Can you show me one passage where you think you have proved without any doubt your theory? :D

By the way, you have spoiled anything,