Genetic Engeneering. Genetika.

[sanjar]

Salom.

Kecha BBC Open University Learning Zone dastiridan Genetic Engeneering (Genetik Muhandislik(?)) haqida ko'rsatuv bo'ldi.

Olimlar hulosaga kelishibdiki, eng toza zot (the best) hayvonlarni birga mahsul berishi juda yaxshi natijlarga olib kelarkan. Bir olimning gapiga kora, toza zot hayvonlar birga mahsul bergan taqdirda ularning nasli genetik yangilanish (upgrade; yaxshilanish)ga uchrar ekan. Masalan, ikki toza zot chopqir otlarning birga bergan mahsuli ancha chidamlik, nisbatan tezroq va kuchliroq bolarkan.

Bu korsatuvni korib otiribmanu, ajablanadigan narsani topolmadim. Nimaga? Balkim O'zbek bo'lganim va ular berayotgan infoni bolaligimdan bilganim uchundir. Agar bilsalaring, o'zimizzi odamlar qadimdan toza zot hayvonlarni birga kopaytirishadi. Buni qadimdan bizzi odamlar bilishgan. Lekin, keyingi payt kuchli potentsialga ega Genetic Engeneering bizda o'sha-o'sha rivojlanmay qoldi. To'g'ri, moliyaviy jihatdan zaifmiz va bu bizga pand beradi. Lekin, baribir chet-ellik olimlardan "bilim o'girlash kerak" (Bilim o'g'irlash gunoh emas!).

Bu message faqat habar maqsadida post qilindi.
Atak, munozara uchun ham ochiq.

SJ 8)

[Freestyler@]

What were you doing up so late, Sanjar :)))
Was about 3-4am?

I too watched the programme... And of course there is no need to tell how great it was - in one thing the brits are best in the world, and that is documentaries and videolearning films.

Now about Genetic Engineering. I wrote an essay last year on the topic looking more at it from economic perspective. And I came to a conclusion that Biotechnologies are indeed very exciting in terms of productivity and profits, but so are its threats and caveats. For one thing it is very expensive and virtually unofordable for developing countries (on average, a successfull cloning of a gene costs about $1.000.000).
Secondly, it threats could be much more alarmig than its bebefits. Because in biotechnology you deal with new, engineered living species, it is very hard to predict their behaviour in real world. Mutations can have a chain reaction and harm not only the people but also the whole ecosystem. That is why the "Green" parties are so furiously against against GM foods and bioengineering.
...
=======================

BTW, if you wtched the programme till the end you must have seen the part where it talks about mutations, right? What do you think about the experiment where a young scientist proved the Darwin's theory by comparing the DNA of a chimp and that of her own?
It's amazing! The DNAs of a human and a chimp are 98% identical. She then said the the first mutant homo-chimps existed as far as 5 million years ago...
Do you now believe that we are all sons of one father (ie Adam)? Or do you now think that we are indeed the result of evolution, the result of natural selection of the fittest.
Just imagine, humans are ultimately the fittest mutations of the chimps

[sanjar]

What's up, Freestyler!

I do usually watch those programmes. I quite like them. Besides, I do not sleep ;-).

You are right, bro, Brits are the best in documentaries and educational stuff.

And yes, it is really amazing that human DNA is almost 98% identical to that of chimps. :)

Well, Freestyler, you asked: "Do you now believe that we are all sons of one father (ie Adam)? Or do you now think that we are indeed the result of evolution...?

My answer is positive to both parts of your question. And you know why? Because:

- I believe that we are all originated from someone/something. Everybody and everything has start and finish, exept for space and time.

- Thus, presuming Adam being the start, I do not see any contradiction to Darwinism. Why not? Because, we do not exactly know how Adam looked like, do we? He might not be a homosapiens as we understand it now.

- Hence, my conclusion and answer to your question is that: Humans have originated from Adam. And Natural Process of Evolution shaped them as they are now - the homosapiens.

Any comments are welcome.

SJ 8)

[sanjar]

Testing.

For Freestyler.

[Freestyler@]

Strange, still isn't working...

[Freestyler@]

Could it be due to the size of the text?
Really strange

[sanjar]

It could be, Freestyler!

Try to divide your text and send 'em seperately.

GL!

- SJ

[Freestyler@]

Wow, I also watch the programme from time to time, when I don’t sleep ;) Ironically I find it much more informative than some of my lectures.
==========
Ok, I suspected you had a religious view on the topic.
But tell me do you know the essence of Darwinism?
Do you mean that Adam could actually be a chimp?

I'll tell you, Darwinism is considered as one of the most dangerous enemies of religion, so you'd better reconsider your stance toward it.
Now, I actually wanted to know what you think about that.
========
Darwinism (or more generally, the Evolutionary Theory) suspects that all living things are a product of evolution of millions of years. According to them it all started from THE MOST PRIMITIVE, ONE and ONLY CELL, with a DNA probably not more than two or three chains. Scientists know for sure that one and only chemical substance leads to formation of life, and that is - liquid H20 (water). All the others are not so crucial as the presence of water.
The rest you should know from biology taught at schools.
BTW, did you also know that a human embrio passes all those stages of evolution in woman's womb in just 9 months, starting from a primitive zygote (a single cell of an egg and the sperm), passing though the stage of marsupials and reptiles (not sure about the order and exhaustiveness) and finishing by a multi-million-cell, four-chamber-hearted human baby?

Looking forward to your answers

[sanjar]

Dear Freestyler,

I appreciate your reply.

The view, which I have regarding the human origin(s) is a personal one. You may call it religious as well. I have a personal interpretation of Islam.

I always try to combine and to harmonise the knowledge, which I get from the Religion (Islam) and the science (in this case - biology). So far - so good! No contradictions yet!

Your Q-1: But tell me do you know the essence of Darwinism?

My A-1: I do.

Your Q-2: Do you mean that Adam could actually be a chimp?

My A-2: He might not exactly be a chimp in the sense, which we understand it today. But he might be anything or anybody, since we (I) do NOT have his description.

You said: ...Darwinism is considered as one of the most dangerous enemies of religion, so you'd better reconsider your stance toward it.

I do not consider Darwinism as the major enemy of the Religion, since I have my own way of interpreting the latter. And I do not consider Darwin as being 100% correct in his theory, 'cause it is not possible. ;-)

My A-3 (to the last long question):

Yes, Freestyler, I know that. And it is really amazing.

So, fella, what do You think of Darwinism and the Religious explanation of the matter? I suspect, you support Darwinism, don't you?

SJ 8)

[Freestyler@]

Thanks for your reply:

Yes, I indeed find Darwinism (and the evolutionary theory, as a whole) much more sound than religious explanation of life and human being on Earth.

I know that Darwinism has not answered yet many questions, and in fact that's what most evolutionists admit too. But it certainly discovered many more scientifically proven facts than mythological religion.
For me, evolutionists have discovered enough to prove that religious explanations are nothing more then tales and myths, used to explain naive people in the past about something that storytellers knew very little about themselves. They just made logic to those primitive minds.
=======
You say that you don't find any inconsistancies between the two but on the contrary harmonise them.
Now can you tell me how according to the religion Adam was created? And then Eva? Will you now compare it to the Darwin's theory?! I personally find total contradiction. And BTW, that's by far not the single contradiction...

See ya

[sanjar]

Dear Freestyler,

I do respect Your approach to the issue. I quite like your arguments.

Your argument on religion being a myth or a collection of tales (Narodni'ye skazki :) ) does not surprise me.

Religion: Myth or reality?

It all depends on your personal understanding and interpreting the Religion. Besides, it depends on how good you know the Religion.

We all need, at least, we all want answers to many questions. Our 'answer-needing cells' are filled with answers, which we find appropriate. But later, one may find another, more correct and more appropriate answer to put in that 'cell'. And, obviously, different people may have different answers filled in their 'answer-needing-cells'. Do you follow me? Presumably, answers, which we may find incorrect, cannot be placed in those 'cells' thus leaving the latter empty.

Yes, I have not found any contradictions between the Religion and Science yet. I mean, no contradictions between 'em in the way, which I understand and interpret 'em both.

You said: ...can you tell me how according to the religion Adam was created? And then Eva? Will you now compare it to the Darwin's theory?! I personally find total contradiction.

My 'answer-cells' :) give the following results to each of your questions:

1. According to Islam, God created Adam from tuproq (can't remember the Enlish translation, sorry) and water, which is in no way a contradiction to Darwinism, is it?

2. God created Eva for Adam using the latter's bone.

Is there anything in Darwinism regarding females' origins?

SJ 8)

[Freestyler@]

Yes, certainly not from male bone though.
Did not you know there were pairs of chimps?!

I suspect that you don't know how evolutionists explain life on earth to the full degree?
Can you tell me what you know briefly?!

[sanjar]

Well, then, Freestyler, where did the females originate from? You did not answer my question, fella.

Your Q: Did not you know there were pairs of chimps?!

Oh, come on, Freestyler! Any child knows that. ;-)

The question, which you did not answer: Where did the females come from? (please, support your argument with scientific evidence/fact, if possible)

Cheers, mate.
SJ 8)

[Freestyler@]

Ok, ok, I will tell you for sure as soon as I find smth more legitimate than my own words.

But tell me, do you honestly believe that the first female was created from the bone of the Adam (whoever he was) ?!

For now I can only tell what i know:
AFAIK, evolutionists suspect that life is the result of the first organic cellular compound, with a DNA probably not longer than a few chains, probably a virus living in water. As a result of mutations (which took place over millions of years), that primitive cell evolved into: first, monocellular living things like bacteria and microbs, then into other, more complex types of living things, gradually leaving the ocean and adapting to live on mainlands, with the human being being the most complex living thing on earth .
Now from biology lessons you know that sexual reproduction is by far not the only way of reproduction: there is also hybridic reprodcution, as well as simple cellular replication. The stage of mutations at which first sexual (ie., male vs. female) reproduction occurred is, as far as I can recall, after hybridic reproduction. Hence, the first types of female genes started to appear at the stage when hybridic living things mutated into pairs - lving things with female and male charactersitics...

So this was a rough explanation, but I think you've caught the idea. It hardly mentions anything of any parts of Adam as being the origin of the women on earth.

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
Menga bitta narsa juda qiziq tuyuldi, Freestyler@, you are explaing the evolution theory and i thought why it was only man who came to this stage of powerty not any other species. Can you explain this for me, because i don't know anything evolutin theory, i studied only molecular biology. I did not find the way you explained the life come to earth was not so logical for me.
Faqat menga yana bitta Islamist kelib discuss qilmoqchi yoki mening fikrlarimga qarshi gapirmoqchi degan fikrdan uzoq bolishingizni sorab qolardim.

[Jr]

Freestyler what's your major?? Just wanted to know? I don't think it's bilogy or something related to this. As far for the theory of creation of Human from chimps: it's nonsense. Why chimps are not becoming humans anymore?? And your theory of mutation seems very unreasonable and not logical, hehe.
Take it easy,

[Freestyler@]

My major is not biology, but I've liked the subject very much since the school till now.

Look forward, what powerty are you talking about?!

Also, I did not guarantee that my explanation would be totally correct and exhaustive, I only tried to brief about the information I'd gathered through years studying, reading and watching the documentaries. I am diletant (an amateur) at the subject.
But this is exactly what is taught in Western universities, and obviously not all those religious myths which I personally find crap. Tell me, if you think that religious explanation makes more sense, then how come it is not taught at Universities?! How come all R&D centres rely on the knowledge of modern biotechnology rather than mythological knowledge from religions?!
==============
Jr, you asked why chimps don't become humans anymore?
- I'll answer relying on my current knowledge. BTW, I had asked myself the same question.

Firstly, your question implies that if evolutionary theory was right, there would be creatures that possess feaures of both man and chimps, right?
The process of mutations takes several millions of years, so don't expect to see the effect in a tiny lifetime of human civilisation (which is just several thousands years only, with known history of only about 3-4 thousand years.) Besides who do you think then were the Neondertal people (and all those "chelovekoobrazniye obezyani"?). Don't you remember the pictures from biology teztbooks?! :)
Second, I remember hearing that the process of conversion is stagely. Once a group of a species has mutated into another one, there gradually occurs a sort of barrier between the two (ie., it becomes more discrete, rather than contious, of course in relative terms). This explains why neondertal people gradually
became extinct but those that survived mutated into homosapiens.

Now Jr. tell me how you explain the existance of races on earth (people with different physical characteristics)? I'll see then if religion is more logical at least in this question.

===================
Guys, if you consider yourself fanatical about Islam, I think discussing the matter will be in vain for all of us. Your dogmatism will just hinder your sober thinking.
Many of so-called religious gurus laugh at the evolutionists, as if their theory is somewhat more sensible, heh. Sanjar is apparantly the first person on the board I find very much agreeing with the evolutionary theory and yet harmonising it with religion. That's why I found it interesting discussing the matter with him.

I look forward for your replies ;)

[Freestyler@]

Can I have your attention for another few mintues, please.

There is this story:

Two men were walking down the road and saw a shining metallic object. First one picked it and said that it was silver.
"No, - said the second one,- it must be gold." And they started to argue. Finally they decided to ask an old wise man to decide on the matter. The old man took the object into his hands, tried it, turned it over, and then again tried it.
"Hmm, - he sad, - it is not silver, because it is more yellow. But neither is it gold, beacuse it is not as soft. And I don't know what it is"
But the fact was that the object was made of platinum.

Hence, none of the three people gave the right answer, but certainly the old man was closer to the truth than the two young men.

So ( k chemu ya vsyo eto):
Evolutionists never claimed that they knew answers to everything, but they are certainly closer to the truth than any religious explanation.

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
Dear Frestyler@ as i said don't accept me as someone who wants to argue in religion.
Last week i just had some lessons from Qur'an where Allah(SWT) says that he created every living thing from water. That was what i found very interesting and you are saying that evlution begin from water.
And I want to say that the Qur'an is not a book of science or anything else, we believe that It is a Word of Allah, and don't discuss them from the view point of science or anything.
Me to rying to harmonise my religious knowledge with science as i am a science student, but the real matter is when you watch something from other view say Islamic, you will get more lessons from it. Have you watched documentary about Pompeye city then or when scientists explained how asteroids can fall onyto certain cities?
I would suggest you to watch them again if you have wish just from other view, not only religious, you will find morethings interesting.
And last word about biology, by powerty our mind.
As i know there are hundreds of thousands of species on the earth and i was always thinking about it why this kind of mind is owned by mankind only, no other animals/before i converted to Islam/ but had never found the answer.
So i would be very happy, if i could explain you something about my views but as i said i am posting these not for argument, just want to make you learn more and help us get harmonised.

[Freestyler@]

"..why this kind of mind is owned by mankind only, no other animals/before i converted to Islam/ but had never found the answer..." (look forward)

- ?!?! To me the answer seems rather simple, if not so obvious (of course, if I understood correctly what you meant).

The human body is the most complex living thing on earth. So only as complex brain structure (or mind) as the one of the humans can regulate it. More primitive living things are just incapable of having such complex minds, simply because they can't and they needn't due to their physical deficiencies.

Next, I still did not understand what you meant by powerty (or should it be poverty?). Anyway, could you explain in uzbek or russian?

Also, if you want me to learn something, why don't you answer my question: How does religion or Kur'an explain the existance of races?


About the water. Strange, I always thought that Kur'an said that Adam was made of sand :) How easy it seems for those "mullahs" to change the interpretation of Kur'an to the facts of science.
I won't be surprised at all that when scientists really prove for 100% that humans are descendands of chimps, that those mullahs will say Kur'an said nothing about the appearance of Adam :) (Forgive me my skepticism). And don't push me that crap about Kur'an's being the words of God. It was written by human(s), and even not by Muhammad himself, and revealed through the mediation of Jabroil. (And I think you know that psychological experiment very popular at schools when a teacher says a phrase to a pupil, and then all the pupils need to reveal the words of the teacher by wispering to each one's ear. The result is that the last student comes out with a totally different phrase) :). So even if indeed Kur'an was God's words, you cant' 100% guarantee that it is accurate :).

Kur'an makes sense to most people because its explanations are primitive (it's only my personal view, I know you would not agree). Of course they will make sense to people who don't want to or can't research into the details and have little access to science.
It's like when a small child asks his parents about how he came to life, and they say him that they had found him in a cabbage, or that the stork (aist) brought him to them. This information is quite enough to satiate the child's curiousity :) It is good for naive and gullible people.

That was what I think about that, I know you don't agree and you don't approve. And forgive me if I was offensive, I think it's better than being a hypocrit.

Anyway, thanks for your attention.
BTW, I have no idea about the documentaries you mentioned.

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
Dear Freestyler@ thank you for your answers, you mentioned about 'mullahs' who changed the interpretation of Qur'an, the truth is that
Allah(SWT) says that He created the Adam(AS) from sand, or loy. And the thing i hve written that Allah(SWT) has creaed every living thing is from Qur'an, and there is misinterpretation here. Different conclusions can be made here, for example the thing you mentioned or that the the cytoplasma of living cells contains most of water in living things. But as i said before, Qur'an is not a scientific book, the Book is to tell us that there is Allah(SWT) and He is the only God to worship. And Allah(SWT) gives examples for those with knowledge to think about the universe and environment to see the Greatness of Allah(SWT).
I think i spelled the poverty wrongly, i am sorry for that, i reallly mean poverty, that is coming from our mind, but still poverness, can't see anything in a second coming, or change change something in a second behind. But as i mentioned the poverty is coming from our minds that no other animal or living thing has it in such complexity.
I did not understand the word races exactly, if you just explin me what it is, in uzbek, russian or turkish you know it, i will try to give me my opinion on it based on my knowledge of Qur'an and religion.
Yes you are right about the writing of Qur'an, it was written by Messenger(SAW) neither was revealed as a whole book at once from sky.
The generation after Messenger(SAW) has written it, but the fact was no oyat was written without having, i am not sure at the moment, but it must be, three witnesses that the Messenger had read that oyat to people.
You have said that the explanations in Qur'an are primitive, and that they would make sence to people who have little access to science. I will give one example that i found very interesting, last week i took exam on quantum mechanics, you know we say that we are very good in forwarding theories, but no theory can explain the things in atoms in whole, the theory is to explain the experimental data, and we can guess very little if change anything in the system.
If you look at the whole area with other views, or open mind you may conclude/you may be exception as lots of people are/that the forces holding only one atom, can't came from evolution, i.e. i want to say that atoms or molecules existed before evolution, and evolution theory explains
only living organisms, so we have to turn to thaery of formation of earth which is much more complicated then of living things, and we will never know answer, and never prove anything in this world fully.
Yes you are right about your offensive behaviour, and it is better than hypocrasy.
The idea of religion is just make the people t worship the only God, Allah(SWT) nothing else.
I never say that scientists found this thing and that is in Qur'an, because it is our weakness that we do say such things in these days, Imon must not need those things to be sobit or powerful, i know we muslims have to do lots of things then we can say that, i proved that thing taking the origin from Qur'an. I really appreciate the works of great muslim thinkers such as Ibn Sina, Ulugbek, Beruniy, Horazmiy, Ali Qushci, Umar Hayyom and others, but we are weak at the moment, and can't say any word, weakness is coming from our iman, our iman is weak as an iman of muslim nation.
All i wanted to tell you that science must serve people, and we must not discuss anything in science from the view point of religion, science must be as accurate as possible and people whom Allah wants to be in the right way/who steps forward to right way in thinking/ will come to iman InshaOlloh.
Do you know what i found you very interesting to discuss something, before i have read your posts they were radical i would say just against Islam, or religion, but you are patient to listen to me and reply, thanks bro.
BTW, about the child we must not deceive him/her, but as the child doesnot understand the things you say, but still you must tell him/her the truth but in a way that he/she understands, e.g. me and your mother had came together, and your mother had carried you in her womb/another word can be used, like qorin/ and you came out after for example say nine months, when you srok was over, this is not lie, and the language i think every child would understand.
I have asked you few qouestions, and be very happy if you answer them.
Thanks,

[OPTIMIST']

Freestyler,

If so called evolutionary theory(ET) was true, it would imply that human beings(homo sapiens) are still in process of changing, after some million years (if they can survive up to this foreperiod), they will transform into other kind of creature that is much more capable, and complex.

or, does this theory implicate that homo sapiens is the final version of evolution of chimps, and no more evolution is in progress?

I think this showes to what extent it(ET) is bullshit.

OPTIMIST ;p

[sanjar]

OPTIMIST,

Just to give You an idea: Have you seen the film "X-men"? If not, then do not miss Your chance to watch it.

SJ 8)

[sanjar]

X-MEN (http://www.x-men.com) (Click for more info)

SJ 8)

[Freestyler@]

Look forward, thanks for you reply. I am glad we can discuss this topic in a civilised manner.

I'll write to you later this week. (Sorry, I've got little time at the moment). BTW, races - irqlar in uzbek, rassi in russian. I was asking why people of different races are so different and wanted to know what religion thinks on the matter.

Also, I think I know now what you meant by poverty of the human mind. I advise you to research in your free time into the phyosophy of agnosticism. You mind find very useful answers there.
==============

OPTIMIST', apparantly you know very little about evolutionary theory :). Who told you that homosapiens is the final stage?! None of the evolutionists claim that!!!

As I've mentioned, do not expect the changes to be obvious and drammatical in a tiny lifetime of the mankind. Did you know that if we took the whole history of the Earth as one full hour, the history of mankind would be just the last tiny single second in it!!!
Even so, evolutionists have revealed very significant changes in human beings since the times of first humanlike creatures. Amongst the most salient are:

1. The brain volume and mass has increased, and there is evidence that the brains of the human are still undergoing changes. (Eg., with the appearance of television, computers, and other mass media, scientists are expecting a slight growths in those areas of human brain, which are responsible for vision and audition. The era of 3D is also expected to account for that growth)

2. The change in posture. Easy, just remember the picture of the neondertal people and homosapiens. Some of the possible reasons, humans adoted horses, started to use chairs and tables...

3. The body hair. The thick hairy clothes were gradually of no use to primitive human beings beacuse they started to use their hand own handmade clothes.

And of course there are many more...

I hope you got the logic.

And before calling something BS, you had better research into the matter, buddy. Heh, do you think you're cleverer than the evolutionary school, buddy?
--------

Respect

[OPTIMIST']

Yeah, I have to admit, I don't know much about evolutionary theory, I was just interested, curious about the future of human being in terms of this theory.

There is nothing to talk about cleverness, it's obvious from common sense that apes can not be predecessors of human beings in any way.

OK, thanks for your time and cleverness :)

OPTIMIST ;p

[Freestyler']

"...it's obvious from common sense that apes can not be predecessors of human beings in any way." (OPTIMIST)

OPTIMIST, so what does your common sense say about the experiment? (read the first two or three messages if you haven't...)

So, sand and water (loy) being THE predecessor of human sounds more consistent with common sense to you?! :)

My common sense suggests that there are much more commonalities between the apes and the human than between the "loy" and the human. How about yours?

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
Freestyler@, i read your replies, but did not have time to do research on agnosticism.
And the thing Allah(SWT) says in the Qur'an is that we people were one nation/irq, qabila/, but after Nouh(A.S), the remaining people who survived the flood, after some while when they went to kufr were divided into qabilas/i don't know it in english/or irqs. And the reason for it is said as to know each other and think about it more precisely.
And the coming is my own opinion. My genetic knowledge is not very good, i appologise for that before i begin.
As i know different races are not very different at all, the difference is in their colours and dimensions i may say. But still this is not very big difference. I think colour difference comes from in difference in one of the DNA chains, so if we apply e.t to the development of these different chains it would be i think impossible to have the chance to build a chain with such structure, which would differ people only in colour or dimension. And if the e.t was succesful we would have people with very different colours and dimensions, from uv to infrared colouredd people. And the fluctuation in dimensions would be so big, just we can't imagine that. because from molecular biology i studied i know that cloning of a mouse results in a baby mouse which is bigger its mother in dimensions. And this is done by only very big knowledge of scientists who calculates lots of things before cloning which is also possible after several thousand times of try.
And i think in this case natural selection or e.t will be unsuccessful to explain.
So the difference in races can come only from very great knowledge which don't affect other parts of the body, just colour and dimensions/i want to say you may not have toe if the cloning is unsuccessful/.
And know i want to discuss the things you replied to Optimist.
1. The brain volume and mass.
I don't think if the dimensions of our brains are changing just we are making to put more things into it. The brain of mankind have had always capability to take any changes around him, e.g. how quickly did you learn to us ethe computers which are not very popular in our country at the moment, or even some of us are better than some hackers i may say.
And we never use even 5% of our brains total capability. And i don't think the era of 3D will effect our brains, because everything in our environment is 3D so what will make diiference to see someting 3D in 2D or 3D in 3D.
and other fact is the brain functions more slowly when you watch tv or listen to the music than when it does when you sleep, this is scientific fact/let me prove you this, you will have to experiment this on yourself: watch tv film or anything in your interest, i suppose you have mobile phone and you have pairs in games section. Try to play this game one time after watching tv, second time after sleep, and third time after you studied for your exams, you will see that more you push your brain more it will work, but without change in dimensions/.

The body hair, mankind have had always clothes in any time in his history this is not proven at the moment, but i hope will be in the future.
And about the predessors of human, you know something in human nature, you said :
So, sand and water (loy) being THE predecessor of human sounds more consistent with common sense to you?!

My common sense suggests that there are much more commonalities between the apes and the human than between the "loy" and the human. How about yours?
The main thing is not our physical meaning, and the main thing is being the soul of human.
You may say we diebecuse of different reosons, and scientifically there are lots of reasons for them. But you may experience your soul when you sleep/dead in the night time/. You soul goes to very different places, even sometimes you can see something that is coming. These are all by the permission of Allah(SWT) that you soul leaves you body and sees something which you can't do with your physical body.
And yesterday i received e-mail from my brother saying that wife of my uncle died, can you imagine i saw her 15 days before her dead, not in my dream, when i went home, and she is dead at the moment, so when i was replying i was thinking more about dead than creation, because we don't have right to choose where and when to be born and die, and there must be some great force Who controls all of these. And on saturday i was listening to Qur'an the story of Ibrahim (A.S), he(A.S) destroys all the idiols which his qavm worships and leaves the biggest one and puts the hammer/with what he(A.S) destroyed the idiols/. When people comes to worship they see the idiols destoyed and suspect Ibrahim(A.S) in doing this, and ask him(A.S) who destoyed the idiols, and his(A.S) answer was the biggest one destroyed them. and they said: how is it possible?
Ibrahim(A.S) said: ask him if he can answer you?
They said: you well know that it can;t even speak how will we ask it?
Ibrahim(A.S) said: so why are you worshipping the idiols which can neither benefit nor zarar keltirish/can't remember at the moment/ to you?
So the meaning of the dialog in the story was like this. I hope you will benefit from stories i tell you and from experiments i told you, you will get the results which will make your brain to work harder.
Assalomu alaykum

[OPTIMIST']

<Freestyler>

All I asked you was to answer my question, not argue about cleverness and origin of human. ET sounds a bit unfamiliar to me, :)

Also, note that I have already determined who or what is the origin of human beings for myself :)

and that's not apes in any case :)

thanks for your time

OPTIMIST ;p

P.S: sorry for referring to ET as bullshit, at least, I respect the time spent on it.

[Jr]

Freestyler, as you said ET is a "theory." So it doesn't mean that it's true. I'm not good in religion or something like that. The thing I wanna say is that now even in Western universities they cover ET as the theory only, not as a concept of the human development. As for Darvin, here, in the West, they study basicly his theory about natural selection (yeah about mutation and some other stuff, but for plants and animals), which is very different from human evolution. Ladno napishu posle togo kak finali zakonchatsa.
BTW, the topic was about genetic engineering. I think it's very good field, but we have to be careful and follow some ethics and moral principles. Don't forget the fact that when Einstein found out the nuclear power he thought it will be for the sake of humans. However, he cried when he heard about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So you can't garantee that someday there might be someone who can use technological achievments for his "purposes."
Ok, talk to u all later.

[Freestyler@]

Soon to come...

[freestyler]

Hi there!

First, a reply to OPTIMIST':
Your words: "does this theory implicate that homo sapiens is the final version of evolution of chimps, and no more evolution is in progress?
I think this showes to what extent it(ET) is bullshit."


Strange you are, OPTIMIST', you ask a question and without learning the answer instantly give your crappy opinion... And what's more ridicilous, after learning the answer you still dont' want to admit that you were wrong.
Bullshit is not the ET, but your own words, buddy.

Take care

[freestyler]

Now a reply to Jr.:
Heh, do you really understand what you wrote?
What's wrong with the ET being a theory? What;s there more convincing than a Theory?!
Besides what's the difference between the concept and the theory?! Look up in any emcyclopedia and see for yourself that a Theory has the highest status in the hierarchy unlike a Concept or a Hypothesis.

To your knowledge, religious view on the matter is no more even treated in the West as a sound hypothesis. It has been proved that those views are groundless and can never be proved scientifically. On the contrary, science has discovered more things to prove religion wrong rather than right (unlike the ET, which from the status of a Darwin's hypothesis has swiflty grown into an influential theory, with many scientific facts and proofs).

Keep it Sober, man

[freestyler]

However, Jr., I must say I totally agree with your second paragraph...

[freestyler]

Next, to <look forward> (Gosh this is gonna be a looong one):

About races:
Strange it sounds: you hardly distinguish between the physical features of different races, but fail to see any similarities between the chimps and the human. :) How come is that?
The fact is that there ARE physical differences between the races and the religious explanation has failed to give a sound answer to it, nor does it explain any mechanism of these changes. (BTW, I knew that religion explains the spread of races during the times of messenger Noah (Nuh). I just wanted to know how you would present it to me. Now you may wish to check out the books on anthropology to see if there is anything scientific about this biblical myth about Noah, the flood and his Ship.)

You wrote: "And if the e.t was succesful we would have people with very different colours and dimensions. So, look around yourself (as I am sure you are in a cosmopolitain West at the moment). What do you see? You will see people wiht different colours, all different size and shape? Is it still not enough a variety to you?!

--------------------
The brain stucture:
You imply that the the size (or the structure) of the brain is not related to our abilities?! YOU ARE WRONG!!!
Open any book on neuropsychology and see that everything that human is capable of, he is capable thanks to his brains. Why are some people good at maths, while others are not? Why some people have perfect memory while the others hardly can learn a short poem? Why are some people born dyslexic while others have a talent of a skillfull speaker? Why girls are usually more talkative then men?
Have a look at the structure of a brain and see that scientists have proven that different parts of the brain are responsible for different activities. (BTW, I've read somwhere that they even detected a place responsible for the religiousness and superstitiosness of humans!) See why a brain damage causes amnesia, speech loss, all sorts of phobia...
If you still don't believe that the human brain has been undergoing gradual changes, you may again wish to refer to anthropology books.
Besides when I listed those changes caused by the era of 3D, I mentioned only the most recent and hence the least visible but still foreseeable changes. It is hardly possible to predict the future in thousands of years, yet alone millions. (One of the more brave predictions is, however, about the 4th dimension - time. Scientists are predciting that human brain needs a more complex and a larger capacity to be able to percieve the fourth dimension and in fact be able to move things in time!!! Exciting,huh? But surely this is not gonna happen in a foreseeable future)

Or else you implied that no matter what the size of the brain is, it will intake whatever you put into it. Wrong again. Take a baby-chimp (with a brain closest to that of a human but still not as perfect) and try to teach it things you teach children. I don't think it will be ever able to mulitply 2*2, let alone speak our language.
------------------------------
Body hair:
Again, look up in anthropology books and see for yourself that early human were much hairy then modern people. Now how does religion answer that question?

------------------------------------

[freestyler]

Continued:
---------------------------------
About the sand, the water, and, susrprisingly, the soul and the dreams(?).
A very cunning trick I'd say to skip from a physical body to a soul and dreams. So you say you dont' care if we are from sand and oil or that we're decendants of the chimp, what is important is our soul, right?
Ok, let's leave then the question about the origins of the human and concentrate on the dreams which you think are a proof that humans have soul. (BTW, chimps also experiance dreams (scientific fact), does this mean that they too have souls and God visits them as well? If so, then it does sound rather consistent with ET, except that evotionists believe that dreams are not a proof of our souls but are simple complex reactions in human brain while he is asleep.
Now, specially for you, I searched in a psychology book (Drew Westen, Mind, Brain and Culture, 1995, Harward University) about the dreams. Here is the first paragraph:
"Since the dawn of human psychology, humans have speculated about the nature and significane of dreams. Some cultures regard dreams as indices of the dreamers'deepest desires, revelations from the spiritual world, or sources of supernatural power (Bourgignion, 1979)"

Later it gives three scientific perspectives on the dreams, namely the Psychodynamic View (Freudism), Cognitive view, and the Biological View. Finally the auther combines the three views into a solid perpsectives. And i haven't found anything about soul, yet alone the God who controls them.
The first two suggest that dreams do have some sort of interpretation, but they never mention the soul or the God.
The biological view suggests that "dreams are biological phenomena with no meaning at all". According to one such theory (Hobosn, 1985), dreams reflect cortical interpretations of random neural signals initiaited in the midbrain during the sleep. These signals are realyed through the thalamus to the visual and association cortex, which tries to understand this information in its way, namely, by using exciting knowledge strucures (schemas) to process information. Because the initial signals are essentially random, however, the interpretaions proposed by the cortex rarely make logical sense...". (Westen, 1995) Now, it is a known fact that brains are active during the sleep, but they in an unconscious state. This explains why sleeping people hearing the sound or touching the water sometimes pee right in their beds :).

Anyway, you may wish to check in any other psychology books. I'm sure you will be very much interested:) The fact that you saw your unlce's wife (when was that? 15 days beofre her death) is nothing but a coincidence. BTW, was she dead in your dream?
A dream is just "a hallucinatory experience that occurs during sleep" (Britanica on-line).

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
I am very in these days have finals in the coming weeks and some writing ups,
but i will tell you one thing exactly: I always feel when somebody from my nears die, i have been experiencing it very much before, when i used to study at the college.
And why do you think i went home?
Not just because i missed them, my mother had operation and i did not sleep well for weeks, then decided to go. Do you think that signals make me feel so for several weeks?
And no one informed about that, there was no words about her when i received e-mails from my brother, the mails were as usual nothing different?
If you please try to explain these phenomena by the theories you have written, i am for sure they can't explain it, because as you said it is brain that makes us different from other living organism on earth.
And by colours i meant, blue, red, green, uv, infrared, orange colours not usual colours of races. And why do not we have these colours?
Ok i am stopping here for today, i have little time.
See soon again

[OPTIMIST']

<Freestyler> (buddy)

Thanks for the info regarding my first question. As for being BS, let me explain, I really thought ET claims that homo sapiens is the final version of human evolution, therefore I hastily dared to call your beloved ET a BS, got it? Now, in the light of your answers, I came to the conclusion that ET must have some realistic grounds as for the future of human beings, as well, but not necessarily true.

I hope everything is clear now,

Thanks for your time,

OPTIMIST ;p

PS: SJ, X-Men yahshi ertak ekan, rahmat!! :)

[Jr]

Freestyler I agree with you that theory is the higher than hypothesis or something like that. However, what I was saying is that West Universities don't study DArvin's ET, indeed they mostly cover his Theory of natural selection. Some people say it's ET at the same time. But this theory is mostly about evolution (natural selection) of the plants and animals. It can't be applied to people since according to the theory, living organisms evolved by the mutation and adaption to the changes on the Earth. The strongest organisms survived (natural selection). But it can't be applied to the human beings. As we all know we were the same for the thousands of years. And this "neordental people" or some "chelovekoobraznaya obezyana"s might be the mutants of monkeys or some other creatures, but I don't believe that they are our ancestors. and don't forget, as I said, I'm not implying to u the hypothesis of the religion (I dont have much knowledge about it), but the ET doesn't seems reasonable to me. Although I'm a science major and studied biology up to junior level, like recombinant DNA technology (I'm glad that I chaged my minoy to math from biology).
As for the brain: the size matters but it's not only the reason. It also depends on the structure, kak Freestyler skazal, kolichestvo izvilin itd. I agree that different parts of the barin are responsible for different tasks like reading, speaking,...
About the size: the brain grows, but not because of technology or something like that. It grows while we are infants up to the age of 20-25. Actually, by the age of 3 children will have 75% of adults brain size. It's the fact. As for storing and retrieving the information neurons are responsible for that. The new memories are stored in new neorons in the hippocampus, occipital lobe and cerebral cortex. Also if there will be damage to these neurons, there might be loss of memory or even diseases such as Alzheimer. And these neurons doesn't affect the size of the brain, there are about billions of the them. So your saying that our brain will undergo some physical chages such as inrease in the size is not reasonable. There might be chages in number of lines, ..., but not in the size!!!
You keep it sober 2,

[Jr]

ooppss, it must be I changed my "minor." Yeah, i don't like this crap like bilogy:((

[Freestyler@]

Soon to come...

[Jr]

chto opyat knigi ishesh chtobi copy/paste sdelat. Use your own words and knowledge rather than just rephrasing:).

[Freestyler@]

Haha, a vot i neugadal, Jr.

U menya takje, kak i u mnogih seychas, na nosu ekzameni...

I potom: Da, ya predpochitayu real'nuyu informaciyu, a ne chuj, kotoraya nablyudayutsya v tvoih postah. No, kak ya uje dal znat', ob etom chut' pozje

Krome vsego prochego, chem ya blagodaren UK, tak eto tem, chto zdes' menya nauchili delat' nastoyashiy "research", a ne nesti bred chto pridyot v golovu, kak eto u nas prinyato v univerah v Uzbekistane...

Chto j ti dumayesh ti nachirkal tam superubeditel'niye dovodi chto mne nechem na nih teper' otvetit'? Hahaha...

[Freestyler@]

Ok, I'll try to make this one short:

S <OPTIMISTom> incident ischerpan.
============
<look forward>, first of all, your "veshiye sni" have nothing to do with ET, it must be psychology that deals with "prophecy" dreams, illusions and superstitions.
Second, I admit that psychology might not have a proper explanations for such phenomena, but neither do they imply that our thoughts are manipulated by God. Those prophecy dreams of yours might imply for example that thoughts and perceptions can and do travel in time (4th dimension).

Skin colour: It is only obvious that even mutations have limits. Have you ever heard of people with wings? (of course apart from biblical angels? :) ). Human skin pigmentation just can never take the colours you mentioned. For example, have you ever heard of any living thing that had ultraviaolate pigmentation? I bet, no. Besides, the colour of our skin is not only determined by our genes but also by the environment. Even if someone was born with unnatural skincolour, under the effect of the light and the sun it might change its pigmentation very easily. Or else, all those "exotic" colours, even if they existed in single mutations (which I strongly doubt) would not survive the natural selection.
So, put simply (and in fact in mathematical terms :) ), all the colours you have mentioned are just outside the feasible region of possible human skin colours.
========================
(Oops, it wasn't you who prefered maths to biology, sorry) ;)

[Freestyler@]

I see Jr. you're fluent with Russian, so:

Kak ya uje namekal, v tom to i yest' tvoya problema (i voobshe problema mnogih uzbekov), chto ti prav tol'ko na slovah, a kak tol'ko delo dohodit do sushestvennih dokazatel'stv, ti, myagko virajayas, zavyanesh.

Chto za chepuhu ti pisal: "...However, what I was saying is that West Universities don't study DArvin's ET, indeed they mostly cover his Theory of natural selection. Some people say it's ET at the same time. But this theory is mostly about evolution (natural selection) of the plants and animals. It can't be applied to people since according to the theory, living organisms evolved by the mutation and adaption to the changes on the Earth. The strongest organisms survived (natural selection). But it can't be applied to the human beings. " -- ?!?!

Gde i v kakoy dostovernoy knige (ili gde bi to ni bilo) ti eto vichital? (Ya imeyu vvidu poseldniye tvoi slova) Ili je eto opyat' taki tol'ko tvoi sobstvenniye slova (i zato nikakoy perefrazirovki)? :)

Mne ne nujno daleko idti, chtobi dokazat' chto ti nesyosh chuj'. Pochitay moy perviy post na pervoy stranichke i otvet' potom chto ti dumayesh' naschyot etogo (ya imeyu vvidu 98%uyu identichnost DNK chimpanze i sovremennogo cheloveka)? Zachem vdrug eto prishlo v golovu uchonim iz "Open University" provodit' etot eksperiment? Chto oni hoteli dokazat'? I prichom eto bila vsego lish' programma dlya lyubiteley. Dlya uchonih-biologov je, eto uje davno izvestniy i neosporimiy fakt, chto chimpanze - blijayshiye jiviye "predki" ludey sredi vseh drugih mlekopitayushihsya.

Naschyot Darwina: On bil osnovolopojnikom idei hotya vsem izvestno, chto u nego bili koye kakiye (nesushestvenniye) oshibki v yego pervonachal'noy teorii (podschyoti epoh i t. d.). Odnako eto sovsem ne oznachayet chto, bud' on jiv i po sey den', to on ne priznal bi etih oshibok. Darwin yavlyayetsya guru - svoyego roda prorokom ET, no on ne yedinstvenniy, kto vnyos vklad v nineshnuyu teoriyu evolucii.
================

Another recent fact I learned a while ago:
The only living creatures that can recognise their own image in mirror are - guess who? - chimps and humans, but some scientists started to suspect that dolphins also could be able to do this! Amazing, huh?!

[Freestyler@]

Jr., check ou the following webpage in Britanica on-line:

Human Evolution (http://209.185.240.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=a05ff9bdae028dc324314cc069d2a010&lat=989425312&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fmembers%2eeb%2ecom)

[Freestyler@]

Sorry, it isn't working.
Anyway, please do subscribe for the 14-day free trial for the Britanica on-line and make a search for "human evolution".

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
I am in very hurry but want to say
to Freestyler@ to search again but this time for the DNA of pigs, you will find that these DNA maybe 98% as humans like chimpanzes'.
Just try to find out about it then i will tell you one thing what Olloh says in the Qur'an.
And I did not say my dreams are prophetic, and i never claim anything like this. And i never believe in superstitions, like say na uzbekskom, supurgini tikka qoyma , falokat keladi, i am scintist and will try to find a proper answer why people say this: supurgi tikka turganda u qayrilib qoladi va yahshi supurmaydi. Dreams are something which happens to us by the permission of Olloh(SWT). And never forget i did not claim what you said.
See you later, maybe after my exams, which are very near to come
Good luck in your exams

[Jr]

I knew that you had finals, it could be seen easily (I just said it since you like rephrasing from books).
I agree with "look forward" that not only chimps but also other animals have DNA identical to humans' almost 95-98%. These are rats, dogs,...
That's why FDA or any researches test all their drugs on these animals first and then do the clinical tests. What surprises me is that they almost never (I didn't mean never) test on chimps, which are as you say "your ancestors" (no offense). As for what I said: yeap, I didn't rephrase or did something like that, I said my own words and what I think; not what's written in the books! It doesn't mean that I'm saying against something written in the books, I'm just not rephrasing them. Also as I told you before,evolutionary theory is not the perfect, there are too many things to prove yet.
Take it easy man, and good luck on the finals. Hudoga shukur biz qutuldik:).
BTW, you didn't post anything about the brain size.

[Freestyler@]

Ok, guys, I'll leave it to your own faith...
---------------------
As to the brain size, Jr., check out Britanica, or any anthropoly books.
It seems my words don't sound legitimate enough for you... (Just as yours don't to me without your making any reference ;) )
=======================

Take care

[Freestyler@]

Just on more question:

Why is that if relgion is so right according to you, it is not taught in the developed world as a basis for all those modern sciences like psychology, biology, anthropology, genetics... ?!?!

(I don't ask you to answer it - I know the answer already)

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
Freestyler@ i just wanted to answer your question.
As I said before Islam and other religions before Islam came to claim the Oneness of Allah(SWT), and taught the people only worship Allah(SWT) not anything else, simply it, Islam came to free the people from worshippping other things and making people worship only Allah(SWT).
ou asked why religion is not taught in the developed world, my answer is people in power in so called developed countries like and want to be in power and they know it very well if they teach Islam people will worship Islam and they will lose their power, so they do anything they can to be the so called lords of people. This can be done by several means, introducing new laws, theories, principles into life, which are easily accepted by people, because they don't know about the real Lord of worlds. These all means make people forget about Allah(SWT) and be the slaves of slaves, for example i may say that you are the acting as a slave of ET, and i am acting as a slave of Allah(SWT) and what you want is to protect ET, want I want is to explain the Greatness of Allah(SWT)/n.b. i am not protecting the religion of Allah(SWT) nor Him(SWT)/ and help you to be free od slaveness of these theories.
But still you don't open your eyes wider and don't look around by free eyes, you are tight by your knowledge to theories which are never proven. But you could use your knowledge/you have potential knowledge/ in other way, which will be more benefitial for you in this life and Hereafter.
But it is up to you to decide, I just wanted to tell you the truth. I don't want anything by telling you these.
But i still wonder what your answer to your question is.
Luck in your exams.

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
Freestyler@ i just wanted to answer your question.
As I said before Islam and other religions before Islam came to claim the Oneness of Allah(SWT), and taught the people only worship Allah(SWT) not anything else, simply it, Islam came to free the people from worshippping other things and making people worship only Allah(SWT).
ou asked why religion is not taught in the developed world, my answer is people in power in so called developed countries like and want to be in power and they know it very well if they teach Islam people will worship Islam and they will lose their power, so they do anything they can to be the so called lords of people. This can be done by several means, introducing new laws, theories, principles into life, which are easily accepted by people, because they don't know about the real Lord of worlds. These all means make people forget about Allah(SWT) and be the slaves of slaves, for example i may say that you are the acting as a slave of ET, and i am acting as a slave of Allah(SWT) and what you want is to protect ET, want I want is to explain the Greatness of Allah(SWT)/n.b. i am not protecting the religion of Allah(SWT) nor Him(SWT)/ and help you to be free od slaveness of these theories.
But still you don't open your eyes wider and don't look around by free eyes, you are tight by your knowledge to theories which are never proven. But you could use your knowledge/you have potential knowledge/ in other way, which will be more benefitial for you in this life and Hereafter.
But it is up to you to decide, I just wanted to tell you the truth. I don't want anything by telling you these.
But i still wonder what your answer to your question is.
Luck in your exams.

[Jr]

Freestyler, what I noticed in your replies, not only here, but also on other message boards too, that as soon as you see something related to religion, especially to Islam, you try to get some counterarguments. It's good that you read the books, do some research to find something to prove your point. I think it's hard to change your mind about religion as it's hard to change mine about ET. And remember, I told you before, I don't have much knowledge about religion and I'm not kinda "mullah," but ET doesn't make sense to me too.
Take it easy bro,

[Freestyler@]

<look forward>, youre' by far not the first (and definitely not the last) one whom I find paranoid about some sort of conspiracy in the Western world, as if they want to fool millions of people just to preserve their power.

Have a grip and don't be so cynic!

Whatever conspiracy they might have, they have certainly gone far forward in almost all aspects of life than the Islamic world (ie, technology, science, economy, politics, and perception of the world as a whole). And that's what ultimately matters!

I don't question the idea of Islam being the most elaborate religion in the world. It is indeed very much sound than, say, paganism, Christianity or whatever. But it still sucks when it comes to the comparison with the modern phylosophy, science and technology.
And my suspicion is that it is exactly the immaculacy and dogmatism of Islam that kept the Islamic world so much behind the Western world. If you want some concrete thoughts on that, I can send you an essay on the Max Weber's comcept of Progressive Rationalisation and the Protestant Ethic, which he thought were the triggers for the development and success of the modern world over the traditional, religious societies. (Just give me an e-mail to send).
========
Well, <Jr.>, to be honest, I suppose it is your problem that you don't find ET sound, because the Western (developed) world has no ambiguity about it.

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
You can e-mail me at hayrush@uzbegim.co.uk

[look forward]

And one more thing i don't want anonymous e-mails. See you than

[Jr]

Well, whatever. But I want to mention one thing, when these Western countries didn't know anything about the toilet, Islamic world had a Reneissance, and our Renenessance was about 2-3 centuries before the Western one. Just remember Al-Horezmiy, Ibn Sina, Al-Hayem, and others. Also they studied Qoran first, and it didn't interfere with their research and studies. For example Ibn Sina memorized Qoran by the age of 4.
As for why we went so behind the West is another topic. Mostly because of Wars, Internal one were the worst and some other things.
Anyway, take it easy man.
As for other religions, just imagine somebody who killed someone, had an affair with woman, etc. In Christianity that person can come priest aks him to forgive his "mistakes." And priest does it. :))
Sometimes for certain amount of money. So I hope you'll make some conclusions, I don't have much time right now.
Peace,

[Freestyler@]

To <Jr.>
Yeah, yeah, vot imenno <Jr.> Islamskomu miru nichego ne ostalos' kak vspominat' svoyo izobreteniye tualeta i ostalnoyye svoyo zolotoye(?) proshloye...

You say Islamic world is lagging because of the wars?! Or maybe it is in wars because it is lagging?! How about that cause-and-effect?

Even so, just remember some lessons from your history classes and recall that the greatest wars of the 500 years world were predominantly among the modern empires, not the Islamic nations...

As to Christianity, reread my previous message, looks like you didn't read it carefully...

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
I wanted to post the ayat yesterday, but did not have time to : Allah(SWT) says: And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from All&acirc;h's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie. (Sura: En'am, ayat: 116)
You can make conclusions yourself.
And about the genes of chimps, Allah(SWT) says: And indeed you knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday). We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected."So We made this punishment an example to their own and to succeeding generations and a lesson to those who are Al-Muttaq&ucirc;n. (Sura: Al Baqara, ayats: 65,66)
Luck in your exams

[look forward]

Sorry must be read as Al-Muttaqun.

[look forward]

That is why i don't like copying and passting had to preview before posting in the first ayat: En'am, ayat 116 must be read as Allah's Path.

[Freestyler@]

Haha, <look forward> dont' be so silly and naive! All religions have such kind of "contingency plans".

Something like: "don't listen to others, however persistent, numoerous or convincing they might be. They know nothing and they will be despised and sent to hell by Me (The God).
But You, you're different(!), youre' the elect who must follow what I say. If you do like I say, I'll send you to heaven, if you don't, you'll be damned to burn in hell for billions of years..."
And quite naturally, you don't wanna go to Hell, do you? It Does sound like a horrible place, even though you'll be dead by then :D

....

[Freestyler@]

If you're so happy fooling around yourselves by the idea of obbeying the God, you're free to do so.

[look forward]

Hi i am now convinced that you never ever think what you read, what you see what you hear, what you feel, it is just wasting of time to tell you about Islam.
But getetic engineering has to do a lot of work to prove itself, i am sure it will never prove itself, it proves the Olloh(SWT) all the time, but who sees the truth from the fact, it is up to him.
Undan keyin ozbekcha bitta hikoya yozmoqchi edim.
Ikki inson bolgan ekan, birisi taqvodor, Olloh yolida ikkinchisi nonkor va yomon ishlar bilan shugullanar ekan. Bir kuni haligi taqvodor nonkorga Ollohga anglatar ekan, gap dozah va jannat ustida bolibdi shunda haligi nonkor taqvodorga qarab : agar aytgan dozahing bolmasa va bizlar olgandan keyin hech qanaqa hayot bolmasa, shuncha qilgan ishing nima uchun deb sorabdi. Shunda taqvodor, mening eng kamida qilgan yahshi ishlarim odamlarga teggan foydam orqamdan qoladi, meni yahshi sifatlar bilan eslab yurishadi, senchi sen nima qilasan agar dozah bolsa/u 100% biladi, dozah borligini/ ahvoling oshanda nima boladi debdi.

har kim hulosani ozi qiladi, hech kim hech kimni majburlashga haqqi yoq bu dunyoda.
Mayli examlarni topshirib olay, keyin yana davom ettirishga harakat qilaman, lekin men gen engineering juda yahshi koraman, agar hozirgi majorimni tanlamaganimda oshani tanlagan bolardim
See you
P.S i did not get e-mail from you.

[Silence_na_begu]

Interesnaya discussiya zdes` razvernulas`...Pozvol`te vstavit` neskol`ko slov :)
Nedarom govoryat deti mudriye sushestva i mojet ya l`shu sebe no v detstve ya dumayu ya bila mudree- chernoe bilo chernim, a beloe belim. I posemu Darvin bil dlya menya neprerkaemim avtoritetom, a Bog sushestvoval i vse skazanoe ot ego imeni bilo istinnoy. Posemu ya ne podvergala somneniyu ni teoriyu Darvina ni postulati osnovnih religiy. Vremya proshlo i ya zadumalas` o ih yavnoy nesostikovke. Buduchi uje v institute ya prochla interesnuyu statyu razvenchivayushyu epohal`nuyu teoriyu Darvina. Vsu eye ya k sojaleniuy ne pomnu (vremya...) no 2 fakta mne zapomnilis` bol`she vsego.
Kuda interesno podevalos` promejutocnoe zveno mejdu neandartel`zem (uje ne Homo erectus, a Homo sapiens, pust` i primitivniy) i kroman`yonzem (ot korotih po fiziologicheskim priznakam mi ne otlichaemsya i po sey den`, ne berya vo vnimaniye odejdu :))? I kak mi mojem govorit` ob evoluzii esli eto prozess neperervniy? A za posledniye tysyascheletiya proishodila lish` evoluziya idey i umov i uj nikak ne fiziiologechskaya evoluziya v Darvinoskom ponimanii (ne berya vo vnimaniye vivedeniye razlichnih porod jivotnih chelovekom, eto uje ne estesstvenniy otbor).
Osoznavaya chto poznaniya moi v etoy oblasti ves`ma skudni (a interes ogromen) nadeyus` vi popravite moi tumanniye poznania kasatel`no etoy problemi.
S uvajeniyem, Silence.

[Freestyler@]

"Hi i am now convinced that you never ever think what you read, what you see what you hear, what you feel, it is just wasting of time to tell you about Islam. "
(look forward) - ?!?!?!

:D (I wonder how did I ever succeed to get an education...)
Sorry, mate, then we must have nothing more to discuss...
----------------------
Anyway, there is <Silence> now.
<Silence>, I should say you have given the STRONGEST arguement against the ET so far!!! (clever lady).
Indeed, I knew about this weakness of the ET. In fact it is the question to which ET has not given its uniquivocal answer yet; there are some hypotheses about that, but there isn't enough material evidence to "satiate" the suspicions of agnostic evolutionists. Probably it is the question on which the evolutionaists most crack their minds. :)
But, like I said... or just read the story in message N18 again, please.
(BTW, did you know that the "gap" exists not only between the Neonderthal and Homosapiens, but also between all other humanoid species (whatever their names are, I don't remember)?

[Freestyler@]

(look forward) hikoyangni yuz marta eshitganman. Nimagadir har kim men bilan din haqda bahslashganida aynan shu hikoyani aytib beradi (lekin turlicha nuanslari bilan :) ) Nima Islomda shunga o'xshash hadis mi bor? :)

Oh man, the thing is, when it turns out to be that the secularists are right, you will loose in net terms, because you won't have been able to enjoy the joys of the freedom, freedom to be yourself, freedom to think for yourself, but not be a zombi of some fake, "divine"(?) ideology.

Besides, how naive indeed you must be to always associate religion with the good and the secularists with the bad... What a biased generalisation. Looks like you only chose religion because it gives some meaning to your life, some "real" morale and sets of rules; or otherwise you will loose you sense.
Religions mostly work for those whom I call rejects of society - people unable to find their niche in this modern "cruel" society and who need to rely on some "Divine" philosophy for their life not to be so miserable and for their existence to have some meaning; gullible and superstitious people; people who can't have harmony in this world of "chaos", who want to live like sheep, following and obbeying the rules which they think everyone should follow.
-------------------------------------
All in all, cheap story. Come up with something more convincing.

[Jr]

Whatever, I think Freestyler you have kind of mania against Islam. I think it's your problem. As for the religion not to be taught, as far as I know here, in the US, they do (but teach Christianity). In some states now they have morning silence (students can pray or just keep silent).
Also I said they are other reasons besides wars too, but I'm not gonna waste time to convince you with something, you are mature enough to make decisions for yourself.
Take it easy man, and don't study too hard:)))

[Freestyler@]

" ...mania against Islam? " :)

I've got "mania against" (whatever that means) any religion, any fake ideology which, as I believe, only decieves people.
But, unfortunately, people like to be deceived, especially when it makes them happy. All of a sudden they start to realise that they have found "ZI TRUTH", the true "SELF", as if before that noone knew it, and so on.

Go and converse with people from other religions - christians, krishnaids, buddhists - whoever. All of them will try to convince you that they found "the truth" and will try to allure you with some divine revelations which came to them and other crap...
------------------------------------
Anyway, you were right, we're all grown up enough to make our own decisions. I've made mine, and it seems you've made yours.

============

Take care

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Hey Wuzaaa,[Assalam alaikum to whom it concerns]. Sorry, for interrupting your discussion. I just wanted to share some information and thoughts with you.
STUDY SUGGESTS ALL MEN HAVE COMMON ANCESTOR
"New York-Every man on earth today is related, linked by a Y chromosome to a common ancestor who lived about 190,000 years ago, a study suggests.This so-called ancestral Adam was among many males who lived before anatomically modern humans evolved, but he is the only one purported in the study to have a genetic legacy that persists today. "We would all have a Y chromosome that existed in the same guy," said Michael Hammer, an assistant research scientist at the University of Arizona whose study appeared Thursday in the journal Nature. The Y chromosome is one of the 24 kinds of microscopic threads that hold genes. Unlike the other chromosomes, it is passed only from father to son. Hammer compared the detailed makeup of a tiny piece of the Y chromosome sampled from eight Africans of various backgrounds, two Australians, three Japanese and two Europeans. The idea to look for how varied that piece was among the different ethnic groups, and then calculate how long it would take for evolution to produce the diversity he found. The results suggest that all men alive today could trace their Y chromosmes back for about 188,000 years to the same person. Hammer said the study suggests that the ancestor lived just before anatomically modern humans appeared around 100,000 years ago in Africa, others say modern humans arose in different parts of the world at different times. Hammer said his findings also suggest a sinlge place of origin. The findings do not indicate where, but Africa is a good bet, he said. The study found evidence that modern-day humans resulted from a relativley small breeding population. The group was so small that it's hard to believe its memebers could have been spread over more than one continent, Hammer said." (LA Times, Friday, Nov. 24, 1995.)
Those who are interested in the original version of the article may refer to journal Nature of that time. But I promise that none of you will be able to understand the article unless you are a biology major at the master's level or some genius ;) . I tried to "decipher" it about a year ago. It is all chemistry "stuff." And I was not able to understand what that Hammer was tlaking about :(
Cheers, :)

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Ok, now I can move on "thoughts" part. From what I know some long time ago there was intermarrieage between modern humans and neandertals. The result was, according to some scientists, that neandertals disappered. The reason for that is their being sexually less competitive to modern humans. (Remember, I am not saying this, some scientists are on this opinion). According to some findings neandertals were more apt to the environment they were living in than modern humans. And besides that they had had advantage over humans in throwing spears and preying. Despite those advantages they died out. In my opinion, Evolution theory can explain hell a lot ayats in Quran (I am not referring to Darwinian because it is already too outdated.) And it is not all about misinterpreting the verses in Quran. All you have to do is just read the explicit meaning of the verse and there you go, you'll be amazed. Actually that's what amazed Maurice Bucaille and made him to write "The Bible, The Coran and the Science" and present it in 1977 in French Medical Academy where his topic was "Quranic explanations of human embryolic development phases." In my opinion, when the first man came to earth, Adam, along with his pair, Eve, there were living species on the earth. And according to Juda-Islamic tradition, Adam and Eve had two sons. No Daughters. Who their sons married?!! Of course somebody who were already there and available, so probably intermarriage between modern humans and neandertals really had happened. This is just an opinion. Another striking point, according to Islamic tradition Adam was larger than the modern day human, so it explicitly admits the microeveolution that happens only among the particular specie not mixing with other species. Like for example, the adaptation of species to a new environment by adopting a particular colour and what not. Another thing, "people wake up", Evolution theory is no longer arguing that it took milions of years for the new specie to emerge, it is saying that it might happen spontaneously in a very short time by chance (I do not know scientific explanation of that). Last but not the least, Dudes there is a big diefference between Islam and "the religion" that Freestyler is talking about. The religion is indeed a "bullcrapp" but nothing else. However, Islam is a totally diefferent phenomenon. You can't just include it among other "bullcrapps" besides that there are many stuffs in Quran, refer to "This Amazing" in discussion board.
Freestyler- you acting like you are the "science" guy and all others are relgious fanatics who are inherently "ignorant Mullahs." Dude, a science guy does not make blank statements, they always use, "it seems", "I think", "probably", "according to some results, data." The science is a constantly changing and progressive "living thing" and you can't say this is THE "absolute" except "pi=3.14..", "e", "g" and they are also subject to changes in certain conditions and environments. The point is, Freestyler, advice;do not claim to speak "in the name of Science."
Theory- the name itslef says, it is a theory. We do not and can not prove the theory. What matters is the predictive and explanatory powers of the theory. The observations from the surroundings can disprove the theory. Like for ex. approximate map of London. What is in map is not true, you can fit in the whole city in a piece of paper. But for the sake of explanation you make unreal assumptions, like scales in this case. But it does not mean that the theory is wrong. All we can say is probability of the theory to be correct and consistent is high or low. Basically we CAN'T prove the theory with empirical evidence. For ex, When Einstein formulated his E=m*c(to power), he assumed that the universe is static , ie. constant and he believed in that untill David Friedman, a Russian scientist, came up with the idea of "expanding universe" in the 1930's. This small incident does not disprove what Einstein introduced. And you can't do the same thing to Quran without really studying and exploring it. Was Muhammad (pbuh) smarter than Einstein or Hawkins in terms of Physics and Astronomy and to "mistakenly" include Big Bang theory in Quran?!!
[img="http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/arabic/21_30.gif"] "Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?(Quran 21:30)

[img="http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/quran/arabic/51_47.gif"]
"And it is We who have built the universe with our power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (Quran 51:47)

I cant believe that a bedoun who lived in the 7th century could know more than Einstein in terms of Astronomy, and this is not just one incident, there are many amazing things in Quran.
Cheers, :)

[Freestyler@]

Lucky, thanks for interrupting and thanks indeed that you (unlike some others here) referred to some real sources.

Now, it seems like you interrupted without having read all the posts (I understand that - it's a hell too long). But if you read it carefully, you'll see that most of your arguements have already been discussed here (including the ET being "only" a theory). And I have no time and intention to revive them - you should understand, I've got exams.

===========

Just tell me, if you're not satisfied with the ET's status of a scientific theory, what do you think is then the status of the religion in the science?

[...]

freestyler, i did not understand you, are you advocating the evolution theory? i cannot believe that you are such a dump! how do not you know that there is no even a peace of scientific evidence that proves that bloody fake theory? in the age of technological and biological revolutions everyone knows that evolution theory is nothing but a myth! what a educated person you are! may be you should find something different theory not to recognise Allah (c. c.)? but surely that would not help.

[Freestyler@]

"in the age of technological and biological revolutions" it is you "..." who is lagging behind.
Whoever you are I won't argue with you because it's pointless...

...'bloody fake theory'mish :D

[look forward]

Assalomu alaykum
Here Freestyler@ Alhamdulillah i have finished my exams and i think will be able to discuss the topic for another 2 days then i am leaving InshaAlloh.
One more thing not everyone is behind the technology, e.g. me, i am going to be one of the best students of my school InshaAlloh, and you will see what the position of muslims are. This is because i followed the Qur'an and Sunnah even take only few verses as guide for my studies, here they are
Sura Alaq first 8 verses:
Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),
Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,
Who has taught (the writing) by the pen [the first person to write was Prophet Idrees (Enoch) >>],
Has taught man that which he knew not.
Nay! Verily, man does transgress all bounds (in disbelief and evil deed, etc.).
Because he considers himself self-sufficient.
Surely! Unto your Lord is the return.

But i wanted to say something men buni maqtanish uchun post qilmayapman. Just for you to compare who is behind technological and biological revolutions.
One more thing that i heard from reliable source i his is scientists say that they don't have anything better to explain the life and it is always lacking to prove life/against religious teaching/.
The last thing i think, i studied how the oceans were formed and how the earth was formed as a part of studies, do you know they both forward different theories in the formation of earth, and explain the subject according to the theories they accepted to be true. I know that it may not relate to the topic but this was something I studied and had exams on it.

[Freestyler@]

Nothing special, just to revive the topic

<hayrush> I didn't know you used to enter the board under the nick <look forward>. :)
Hope you exams were OK.
By the time you posted your last reply here I must have been already in Uzbekistan.

[hayrush]

Thank you Freestyler@
Yes i used to use 'look forward' because i was looking forward for better life.
But know i am using my nickname from my childhood, which was better than any child's in Uzbekistan know. And exams were great and i even got scholarship for high performance.
Luck in your coming exams

[kastrulka]

Yozsalaring uzbekcha yoki ruscha yozinglar birodarlar , notugri fikrlarga dikussiya qilib utiribsizlar,Sanjar uzi toza zot degan iborani tushunasanmi?
?????????????????????????????????????????

[try]

what does ET mean?
Sorry........

[Freestyler]

ET - short for Evoluationary Theory, whose guru is considered to be Charles Darwin

[Freestyler]

To those of you who are currently in Britain:

There is an awesome documentary serious on the topic of "GENES: HOW TO CREATE A HUMAN" going on TV now

Start time: Every Sunday 9:00 pm

It IS very interesting and hopefully you won't regret.

So, the recent news is:
Scientists in US finally succeeded in cloning a human embrio two or three months ago

[Bob]

a) sanjars belief is called creationism and in some western nations is taken quite seriously(ie the USA mainly the southern states), however i do not believe there could be just 2 humans in the beginning because that would not offer enough genetic divesity to create a healthy species.

b)chimps are a cousin speices not a father species and the purpose of evoulation is survival not intelligence and for chimps there best way to survive was to adapt to the jungles while ours was to, being on the open savana was to evolve bipedaly for quick running on open ground and eventially to have posible thumbs and a larger brain for the use of tools

and c) i would take the reports of raelins cloning a human being with a grain of salt, my gut insticts tell me not to trust a cult that follows a french motor racing journalist who was "abducted by aliens " and taken to a planet that had "pleasure" robots. but thats just me.

P.S please if you are going to reply do it in english thanks

[semovski]

Салам Алейкум !
Looking for people from Central Asia !

We are preparing to present application to NATO Scientific Committee for
Advanced Research Workshop organisation with the subject "Tracing Past
Environmental Changes in the Genetic diversity of Contemporary Faunas". The
general idea is to join together efforts of theoretical biologists,
modellers, bioinformatics people and molecular biologists to produce new
evidence in interpretation of genetic data from the point of view of
reconstruction of the history of evolution and speciation. Organisation
Committee includes
Erik Verheyen, Dr., Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences, Brussels,
Belgium. (Chairman)
Sergei V.Semovski, Dr.Sci, Molecular Systematics Lab, Limnological
Institute Siberian Branch, Russian Academy of Sciences, Irkutsk, Russia.
(Co-chairman)
Dmitry Yu.Sherbakov, Dr., Molecular Systematics Lab, Limnological Institute
Siberian Branch, Russian Academy of Sciences, Irkutsk, Russia.
Ulf Dieckmann, International Institute of Applied System Analysis,
Laxenburg, Austria
Vladimir V.Kolchanov, Prof., Institute of Cytology and Genetic,
Novosibirsk, Russia
Boris Sket, Prof., Professor, University of Lubljana, Slovenia
Nils Chr. Stenseth, Prof., University of Oslo, Norway
The planned venue is Limnological Institute, Irkutsk, Siberia, Russia,
September 6-11, 2004 with field tour to Lake Baikal and special Baikalian
session at the Lake Baikal shore.
If you have an interest take part in the workshop as speaker with
coverage of your expenses by NATO, we would be gratefully appreciate for
title of your talk and brief CV.
We would be greatfully appreciate for distribution of this information
between your colleagues.
Thank you in advance.
Yours sincerely

Sergei V.Semovski, Dr.Sci, Molecular Systematics Lab, Limnological
Institute Siberian Branch, Russian Academy of Sciences, Irkutsk, Russia,
E-mail: semovski@sherb.lin.irk.ru (address for correspondence)

Erik Verheyen, Dr., Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences, Brussels,
Belgium. E-mail: erik.verheyen@naturalsciences.be