Uzbekistan - unitarnoe gosudarstvo?!

[Nodir]

Konstituciya RU
1.
Глава ХVII. Республика Каракалпакстан
Статья 70. Суверенная Республика Каракалпакстан входит в состав Республики Узбекистан. Суверенитет Республики Каракалпакстан охраняется Республикой Узбекистан. - ???, raz po konstitucii RK - suverennoye gos-vo, mi nikak ne mojem zashishat ih suverennost. A esli mi mojem, to zachem pisat chto RK - suverennoye gos-vo?
2.
Статья 71. Республика Каракалпакстан имеет свою Конституцию. Конституция Республики Каракалпакстан не может противоречить Конституции Республики Узбекистан. - eshe odin priznak avtonomnosti RK
3.
Статья 73. Территория и границы Республики Каракалпакстан не могут быть изменены без ее согласия. Республика Каракалпакстан самостоятельно решает вопросы своего
административно-территориального устройства.
Nalichiye territorii i sverh togo priznaniye etogo konstituciey Uzb - eshe odin priznak suverennogo gos-va.
4.
Статья 74. Республика Каракалпакстан обладает правом выхода из состава Республики Узбекистан на основании всеобщего референдума народа Каракалпакстана. - bez kommentariev.
5.
Споры между Республикой Узбекистан и Республикой Каракалпакстан решаются путем согласительных процедур. - ETO KAK MI IM GOVORIM I UTVERJDAEM A ONI S NAMI SOGLASHAYUTSYA?!

Summiruya vse vishe ukazzannoye - pochemu v statye 1 ne skazano Federaciya Uzbekistana i Uzbekskaya Fedareciya ravnoznachni? Vse priznaki konstitucii ukazivayut na to chto mi FEDERACIYA? kruto na tak li? A mojet bit mi konfederaciya? Vse taki obyadineniye dvuh gosudarstv, i cel edinaya est - radi ekonomicheskogo procvetaniya!
Jdu vashih otklikov.
Nodir.

[o-la-la]

Nodir, ti v Umede uchilsa na MP?
Esli tak, to ti doljen bil otlichno pomnit' iz lektsiy po Konstitutsionnumu pravu, to chto 'Uzbekistan yavlaetsa unitarnim gosudarstvom s elementami federatsii.' Problema nalichiya elementov federatsii v unitarnom gosudarstve prisusha ne tolko nam. Voz'myom k primeru Fransuzkuyu respubliku-fransuzkie territorialnie edinitsi uje dostigli takogo urovnya samoupravleniya, chto Fransiya smelo mogla bi obyavit' sebya suverennim gosudarstvom.
Mne bi hotelos otmetit', chto ya ne shitayu danniy vopros o suverinetete Karakalpakstana ochen aktualnim. Ya ne viju prichini iz-za kotoroy Uzbekistanu sleduyet menyat' naimenovanie vida svoego. territorialnogo ustroystva na federatsiyu.
Esli ti pechoshsa o pravah Karakalpakstana, to v Konstitutsii chyotko i yasno izlojena protsedura otdeleniya Respubliki Karakalpakstan ot Respubliki Uzbeistan. No ne dumayu, chto danniy vopros volnuyet v nastoyashee vremya karakalpakov.
Nashyot je 'konfederatsii'- danniy vid gosudartsvennogo ustroystva v nastoyashem vermeni mojno shitat' vimirayushim. Esli ne oshibayus za isklucheniem obyedineniya shweytsarskih kantonov v sovremennom mire bolshe ne sushestvuyet konfederatsiy. Konfederatsiya-eto vid gos. ustroystva bolee svoysvenniy proshlomu veku. Kak ti uje otmetil, konfederatsiya-eto soyuz dvuh ravnopravnih gosudarstv. Respublika Karaklapakstan je soglasno svoyey konstitutsii vo mnogom opirayetsa na Uzbekistan v formirovanii svoih organov vlasti.
Ya otlichno ponimayu, chto mojno privesti stopku argumentov o razlichnih protivorechiyah, no hotelos' bi tak je vspomnit', chto sushestvuyut razlichnie urovni gosudarstvennogo suverineteta. Odni gosudarstva obladayut bolshim, drugie menshim urovnem suvereniteta.Jokargi Kenes Karakalpakstana , prinyav Konstitutsiyu RK v 1993 godu, izyavil volyu karakalpakskogo naroda, tak chto mi bessilni s nimi sporit'.

[o-la-la]

Sorry guys, stroku 'Fransiya smelo mogla bi obyavit' sebya suverennim gosudarstvom ' sleduet chitat' kak 'Fransiya smelo mogla bi obyavit' sebya federativnoy respublikoy.':)

[Sher]

Pozvol'te mne zadat nemnojko stranniy vopros Pochemu Karakalpakstan yavlyaetsya "avtonomnoy respublikoy" v Uzbekistane a ne prosto oblastyu? If it were an oblast as other 12, then at least there would have been less beuracracy, I guess ;)

(my major is very far from law, so I apologize if this question sounds very strange ;))

Sher

[Curious]

Dear Sher, Karakalpakistan yavlyaetsya suverennim gosudarstom v sostave respubliki Uzbekistan. No kak ti skazal gosudarstvennie apparati, takie kak jukorigi kenges,i togdali yavlyayutsya tolko obusoy dlya nalogoplotilshikov.There is no need to maintain those structures in Karakalpakistan,since they are invalid.There is no difference between those structures at Karakalpakistan and a regional hokimiats anywhere in Uzbekistan.Both depend on central government and both implement the policy of the center. The only difference is that more money is spent for maintaining the name of Karakalpakistan Republic.
It would be more reasonable to spend those money for saving aral sea and evicting people from an ecological crisis zones around the Aral sea.
Besides that the separation of karakalpaks from Uzbeks is tself a silly thing, 'cause karakalpaks are the one of 90 families(URUG') of uzbeks.

[BARZANGI]

Sher, nam eshe povezlo chto Karakalpakstan okazalsya v Uzbekistane. Vnachale on vhodil v sostav Kazakhskoy ASSR, potom v sostav RSFSR, i lish v 1936 godu on byl vklyuchen v sostav Uzbeksoy SSR kak avtonomnaya respublika.

Posle raspada SSSR mnogie zakony i poryadki byli prosto perefrazirovany. V osnovnom vse ostalos' po prejnemu. Avtonomnaya Respublika - eto gosudarstvo s otdel'noy natsionalnost'yu, kotoroy predostavleno politicheskoe samoupravlenie v sostave drugogo gosudarstva. Osnovnaya prichina sozdaniya Avtonomnoy Respubliki eto otlichie byta, nravov, obychayev, i yazyka dannogo naroda.

Ishodya iz etogo, mnogie rukovoditeli mestnyh organov vlasti i upravleniya naznachayutsya iz chisla predstaviteley korennogo naseleniya. (chego ne skajesh o drugih oblastyah)

o-la-la, ya vpolne soglasen s toboy i s voleizyavleniem naroda Karakalpakstana ;) Oni takje kak i my ponimayut, chto eto v obshih interesah ostavatsya v edinom sostave.

<font color="0000FF">hurmat ila, Barzangi</font>

[Yusup]

Hi all,

Ya rad shto rebyata nachali zadavat' zakonomerniye voprosi o statuse Uzbekistana kak ne razdelimogo gosudarstva t.k. ono yavlyetsya unitarnim. Ya sam is Nukusa i ya Karakalpak. Respublika Karakalpakstan yavlyaetsya suverennoy respubliki i kto to pravil'no zametil chto ona otlichaetsya svoimi nravami, kul'turoy, obichaemi i yazikom. No, u nas s Uzbekami mnogo obshego. Status RK kak suverennogo yavlyetsya ponimanie Tashkenta i Uzbekskogo naroda ob etix razlyichiyah, i ono pravil'no sdelalo chto RK imeet pravo na samo-opredeleniye. Ya eto govoryu potomu-chto kto to skazal chto RK ne mog bi bit' odnim is Oblastey. Net druzya, ne mojet. Joqargi Kenges sushestvuet dlya togo chtobi vipuskat' zakoni s uchetom vishe skazannih otlichii ot Uzbekskogo naroda. Pojaluysta poymite menya pravil'no.
I am not majoring in Law or smtng like that. I ya ne soglasen s tem chto my sostoyim iz 90% Uzbekskix rodov. Eta respublika imeet 30% karakalpakov, 30% Uzbekov i 30% Kazakhov i ostal'nix narodov. I vse pochti razgovarivayut na karakalpakskom yazike. Mojno bilo bi skazat' chto RK imeet inter national'niye braki. Ya naprimer uchilsya na karakalpakskom yazike i u nas v klasse bili Uzbeki. Sredi moyih druzey est' i Uzbeki i Kazakhi, Russkie, ne govorya ob Uzbekah s oblastey s institutskix vremenen i seychas.
Tak chto eto ne lishnyaya trata nalogov naroda i burakratiya. Esli skazat' ob bez-deyatel'nosty gosudarstvennix organov, eto drugoy vopros, eta problema ya dumayu vezde sushetvuet. Spasibo za ponimanie.

[Yusup]

Zdes' vopros ne o tom chto RK xochet razdelit'sya, vopros o tom chto v sostave Uzbekistana imeetsya eshe odna suverennaya Respublika. I vse.

[Nodir]

Rabyata konechno spasibo, no po moemu vi nemnogo otvleklis ot temi. Yusup previlno eto zametil.
S uvajeniyem Nodir.

[......]

Ok, Nodir. Togda chto je ti predlagaesh po etomu povodu? Vsem prekrasno izvestno, chto v sostave Uzbekistana est' suverennaya respublika. Ya ne ponyal, v chyom togda problema po tvoemu mneniyu?

[mustafa]

Hi guys

I'm from Karakalpakstan. I'm karakalpak and I don't want to see Karakalpakstan as a province or part of Uzbekistan it is a republic which has its own attributes and it will be republic. Jokargi Kenges is ruling organisation and it is not just for money being spent. If you really care about Aral Sea why didn't you think about the people who let this tragedy to happen, why they are still in their positions, why they didn't say to GosPlan that we cannot have that much water diverted to agriculture?. I don't know how the accounting was in USSR but I read in Journal of Political Economy that one of the accountants calculated that by ruining the Aral Sea we'll get 600mln rubles whereas to get rid of the sea will ONLY cost us 25mln.
So guys dont touch the name of Karakalpaks, perhaps it is the only thing we are left with. Whatever it will cost me I won't give up that name.

Take care

Mustafa

[BARZANGI]

Mustafa, there is no reason to be offended. I hope you read my previous message and I don't think anyone is going to change that status.

Of course very little is being done regarding the Aral sea, which is one of the many problems our society is facing today. And it is very important to understand that it is a "common tragedy", not limited to a particular group of people.

take care, Barzangi

[Mirzo from Turkey]

Mustafa hi!
Nezavisimaya strana "Karakalpakistan" Krasivo zvuchit ne prada?! :)

[mustafa]

Mirzo!

May be it is dream ili provokaciya?

Mustafa

[Nodir]

Rebyata, spokoynee.
Karakalpakstan - suverennaya respublika v sostave Uzbekistana. Edinstvennoye chto ya hotel tak eto prosto poraskinut mozgami esli daje v konstitucii zakreplen status suverennosti, pochemu mi ne nazivaymsya federaciyey? Ya ne imel v vidu chto nujno predprinimat kakie-libo meri.
Nodir

[Sher]

Uvajaemiy Yusup i Mustafa,

Ya zadal vopros tol'ko dlya togo chtobi utochnit te razlichiya. (if there are any)
Kstati, Yusup, nikto ne govoril chto v Karakalpakistane 90% uzbekov. Curious pisal pro odnogo iz 90 plemeney, a ne o protcentax.

Here is his words "...Besides that the separation of karakalpaks from Uzbeks is tself a silly thing, 'cause karakalpaks are the one of 90 families(URUG') of uzbeks..."

Mustafa,

....So guys dont touch the name of Karakalpaks, perhaps it is the only thing we are left with. Whatever it will cost me I won't give up that name....

I'm sorry if it sounded very strange. But we were not discussing anything about nationality.
btw, thanks for not paying attention to provocations of Mirzo.

Sher

[Yusup]

Thanks everybody,

Sher, thank you for the diplomatic message. I hope that everything will be OK.

Please, Mustafa, nobody is trying to "touch" karakalpaks. Esli kto to i govorit ob etom to eto ego predel vospitannosty. Tak chto ne nado gorevat'.

Please, talk about the topic. The topic is not about Uzbeks and Karakalpaks, or what is wrong with them. The topic is country inside of the country and what's the status of such country.

Thank you all.

[Mr. X]

Vot vidite do chego dovodit demokratiya..... Stoilo Nodiru podnyat' vpolne bezobidniy vopros o vide gosudarstvennogo ustroystva kak vi srazu perevernuli ego v natsionalnuyu vrajdu.

[Yusup]

Nikto ne govorit ob national'nom voprose. Pojaluysta bez kommentariev.

[mustafa]

Konechno, nactionalniy vopros zdes ne idet?, a prosto studenti discussing the problems!

Let's forget the topic and that's it. I dont want to discuss things "which matter to me".

Mustafa