Islam or Christianity in Central Asia!

[UniversaL]

Assalomu aleykum!
There have been few days since my arrival to the U.S. not thinking about the Christianity and Islam, the two most influential world religions; the reason of my behaviour may be caused because of the words of our messanger Muhammad (S.A.V) who said"One cannot become a muslim unless he visits other foreign countries and perceive the meaning of Islam", however I am sure it is because of american guys over here who are christian fans and who try to make it clear that their worshiping religion is the only true.
I do not want to state that I am a real muslim, because I am not sure about that. And No, I am not here to write it and show off...
Anyway let me be short and ask YOU all why the christian propaganda became so popular these current days in Uzbekistan, Kazagstan and other Central Asian countries, which are historically muslim?

P.S. After Sher's forging the discussion concerning these religions and his refering to some interesting sites, I have decided to put this( not only religion oriented ) question.
I am waiting for your replies :) and ready to underlie my own opinion.

UniversaL

[orzu]

I am NOT sure about the facts that I am gonna say below. I just heard about it.

1.Most Christian propogandists use the weaknesses these countries are facing. One of them, which is very important for most people, is economic instability. Propogandists are from developed countries (at least most of them), they give financial incentives to new Christians. They send them to their countries to learn the religion. As you know, majority of our population are facing financial problems, and almost everyone wants to take a chance to go abroad. That is one of the reasons of their popularity.

2. Consider this statement
...Islam is the major religion of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan. However, the many years of atheistic brainwashing by the Communists have left the land devoid of the extreme fundamentalism of the Middle East. Most Muslims are more interested in reading the New Testament (in their own language) than they are the Koran (in Arabic).

In fact, when radical Muslim missionaries began coming into Uzbekistan in 1991 to foment change and revolution, the government arrested them as subversives. As of January (1997), 71 were still in jail, but there are no Christians in prison for their faith. Uzbek authorities seem interested in maintaining religious tolerance and don’t want one group to get dominance of the other... (Source [URL="http//www.christianaid.org/uzbekist.htm"]http//www.christianaid.org/uzbekist.htm</a> )


That is only my opinion.

[hello_world]

The answer to the question seems pretty clear it is a very convenient moment for the new religion to come in, as the norms of the traditional one (i.e. Islam) are presently questioned as uncapable of providing people the information (perhaps, comfort?) they want.

While international terrorists claim their pertinence to Islam, and yet go against Islam's own fundamental principles of peaceful coexistence, the situation is not to change.

As for Central Asian states, the question is, however, not "why?" but "Will the nations who once forwent Zoroastrism for Islam, be eager to accept the new religion, especially once given the economic incentives?"

This is an interesting topic, deserving every bit of careful consideration.
Thanks.

[lucky]

Mehribon va Rahimlik Allah nomi ila .Assalamu alaykum va RahmatAllah .
Dear respected brothers and sisters I just wanted to express my opinion
so if I hurt any one's feelings I apologize in advance.
First of all Islam is not something that's cultural ,if anyone accepts
it in that way his iyman will be accepted only untill the age of pubert
y. For example I can not say I am muslim because my parents are
muslims,if that was the case Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)would accept His
ancestors' religion. Islam is a religion in which every human being
is born and its everyone's birth right to become muslim. In order to
become muslim one should confess from his deep heart that there is on
ly One God and Muhammad is His slave and messanger. Following eve
ry order in quran follow the steps of prophet Muhammad in every
deed and action. So if one becomes muslim it is obligatory on him to
follow all the orders. I am not making it up myself this is the basic
teachings of islam. Of course there are cases when one is exempt even
from fardh(obligatory) actions not mentioning the sunnah(suggested)
actions. According to statistics %85 of the population of Uzbekistan
are muslims ,I think this is not a correct statement and I am not tryin
g to declare many of them kaafirs 1) I do not have a right 2)it is no
t my problem 3)I do not care. The statemant would be correct if it
were written %85 0f Uzbekistan's population's ancestors practiced isla
m as a religion. I think the word muslim became a nickname just to
categorize the people, so we do not have to worry that people are getting out of the path of islam because they are already out of path.
Approximately only 40% of that 80% practice islam. Many of the
old aged people practice islam for sake of memes where as the younger for something new to look forward to; but not the case for all. And Islam always challenged other ideas
and it already passed the test of time .Besides that Islamic countries
have always been abode to many other religions for ex.4 Chaliph's time.
And there is no compulsion in religion you can find this statement
in Quran .I tried to be clear ,comments and suggestions are welcome.
THANK YOU....

[UniversaL]

Thank you guys for your replies, I appreciate that.
However, my intentions were not to clarify about Islam, which some of you did, anyway it is OK.
So let me say some words about the current (not first or new one) invasion of Christianity to Central Asia. The christian organizations like Christian Fellowship, that is only a subdivision, are gaining popularity because of the war in Tadjikistan and Afghanistan the outcomes of which are tremendous in terms of social and economical devastation :(, and the most important that these countries are neighbouring with Uzbekistan...
Here my point of view in short Christians are coming to Central Asia especially trying to deliver their so called "gospel news" or "devine voice of happines" (or whatever) to Afghanistan and Tadjikistan because <font color="0000FF">PEOPLE IN THIS REGION HAVE ONLY HOPE, DESIRE LEFT TO LIVE IN A, FIRST OF ALL, PEACEFUL PLACE </font>, The Place the christians talking and promising about...

P.S. Although I apprehend the fact that Islam is a dominant religion in these countries, I also understand that Christianity is getting stronger and stronger year by year!

Take it easy and let us think about OUR nation.

UniversaL

[Sanatullo]

Dear compatriots,

Firstly, today, it is obvious that those states (not countries) mentioned in that article are weaker than those developed western countries' states. One may easily find out that the condition of those states doesn't allow to defend their ancestors' belief because of the necessity and inability. By stating these, I want neither accuse nor ask you to accuse the state.

Secondly, from the speeches of our president, we are aware that Uzbekistan was traditionally an islamic country, and I think, it will be the islamic country. Those acts against those extremists are against those extremists, not against the islam. We, at last, should accept that those extremists are not the only people in Islamiyat.

Thirdly, non-Being an islamic khaliphate doesn't mean that the country is not an islamic state. Even we didn't officially declare that we are an islamic country, in the world arena, we are accepted as an islamic country. For example, Have you ever thought "WHY THOSE LEADERS OF WESTERN COUNTRIES SEND CONGRATULATIONS TO THE NAME OF THE PRESIDENT ON THE EVE OF "KURBAN HAYIT" NOT ON THE EVE OF "CHRISTMAS"? If you want I may give some similar examples.

Fourthly, if you have observed the missionaries are ordinary people. Neither a statesman nor a CIA officer. They are not related to the state. (yani ular halk ichidan). So, i think, the solutions for these missionaries should be found among the people themselves. i think, someday, if people really take to solve this problem, probably the state won't take it as a serious matter. So we, as interested observers, should wait for that "someday".

Fifthly, I ask some you not to blame "islam" for certain economic matters, as you/I have no capability to make such judgements. Please, don't make such a mistake.

[Sanat]

Universal,

If you have read the article, it mentions about the thousands in Karakalpakistan. What do you think about that? Although, I think, your arguments about Tajikistan and Afghanistan are also valid.

Regards

Sanat

[UniversaL]

Sanat You asked me about Karakalpakistan and article. I have read an aricle and I think that not only because Karakalpakistan is a part of Uzbekistan but also since it has historically identical roots with Uzbekstan we should respect and protect it.
Sanat, nimaga endi faqatgina Qoroqolpoqlar devosiz, goyoki ularning Ozebkistonga yoki boshqa Orta Osiya halqalriga aloqasi yoq-dey :(; esingizda bolsa 19 asrning yarimlaridan (undan oldin boshlaganini gapirmaydigan bolsak) Turkistonga har tarafdan bosqinlar boshlangan edi, honliklar ( ularni hozirgi respublikalarga taqqoslaydigan bolsak ) ozligini oylab, kelvotgan va tahlit solvotgan kuchlarni "manga aloqasi yoq" ma'noda oz tashvishlarini ozlari,Birlashmasdan yechishga urindilar, oqibatda nima bolganidan hammamiz habardormiz...
Sanat, if you also remember theris a book bu I.A.Karimov" Turkistan (The Central Asia) our common homeland", the President underlies the same issue that I have just said and that is to be <font color="0000FF">TOGETHER</font>, because only by this way WE are stronger and impossible to be defeated.


UniversaL

[Sanatullo]

Universal,

Siz menimcha meni umuman tushinmabsiz. Men aytmokchi bulgan narsa, bu problema nafakat Tojikiston, Afgoniston problemasi. Balkim deyarli butun O`rta Osiyo problemasidir. Yani masalan, Korakalpog`iston misolida demokchi edim.Siz esa buni bir tomonlama kursatishga harakat kilgansiz. O`zingizdan o`zingiz turli hil hulosalar chikarganingizdan hayron koldim.

Sanatullo

[SUN6500]

I am against any kind of organized religion.
God should be within a person itself. A person could be
godless no matter how many times he/she goes to mosque
and prays 5 times a day. Look at those Arabic countries
or Pakistan that considers itself as an Islamic state.
The condition people live is pitiful!!! Women have
absolutely no rights!!! Most of them are illiterate. As a result their
offsprings, children grow up to be "Johil" little zombies
that know nothing but Koran! It is absolutely pitiful!!!
Now speaking of missionaries, they do more harm than good! They divide nations, put them against each other on the basis of religion. I've seen those church rats as well, no difference in fanaticism from their muslim counterparts.

[Khurik]

The main reason that missionaries are coming to Central Asian coutries is because they know most of the people in Central Asian countries don't have much knwoledge about Islam. I saw a woman from "CAFE" organization trying to convert people to Christianity in back home, and I am sure she converted at least 5-6 college girls. I think we don't have to allow these kind of organization to come to Central Asian countries.
Mormons usually go to countries where people don't have a strong faith in religion. But they don't go to any Muslim coutries because they know that it is really hard or impossible to convert muslims.Mormons were successful in Asian and South American countries.

[Sanatullo]

Khurik,

Gap yuk. ;) btw, kachon kelding?

[hello_world]

Just a random comment

I personally believe that every person should be given a chance to make a choice of the religion he prefers in his life.

The problem with our states is, however, that the attitudes tend to become increasingly biassed when it comes to the discussion of religions. And in this contest Islam is certainly not at advantage.

Yet, some steps are taken to alleviate this bias, and here I would quote the establishing of the new Islam University (Academy?) in Uzbekistan; and I certainly go along with the governments position in this regard.

However, no government decision is effective without public support, in which case it merely remains a piece of paperwork.

And here is where our task comes in it is the personal moral obligation of everyone of us concerned to bring the enlightenment to our people, to show them the things the way they are, so they see the true life.<font color="blue"> This means taking the teaching of Islam (and not only it) out of shabby village mosques to secular schools and let people see the beauty of Islam, as well as other religions, and let them make their choice.</font>

Qouting Joan of Arc <font color="0000FF">"If not me, who else?"</font>

I appreciate your patience and welcome any comments.

[Delf]

I agree with SUN6500.
Once you start talking stuff like that,
you first have to distinguish clearly
between God, religion and church(or mulla's).

And I would like to say that these three things
do not have much in common.

delf

[Dar+Us+Salam]

Answer is so very simple it makes me sick with vertigo - years of political and atheist propaganda played upon the people of aforementioned countries by oppressing might of USSR and it's most succesful propaganda machine payed off so well that on the ground of one of the world's most influential and ravenous islamic regions(think imom Al-Buhoriy etc) religions such as christianity,buddhizm,hinduism could shoot roots and prosper acquiring numerous followers who lost their believes and had no intention to take to their ancient and most beloved religion - islam.

[Sher]

UniversaL,

....why the christian propaganda became so popular these current days in Uzbekistan, Kazagstan and other Central Asian countries, which are historically muslim?....

Let's first identify how well these countries can be classified as "muslim". Let's just compare with one of those NON muslim countries like USA.

USA You can learn Islam anytime, anywhere you want.
UZB Can you learn Islam with your friends at your home? (Is it OK?)

USA You can not drink alcohol, if you're under 21, and after 200 a.m
UZB Anybody, anytime, anywhere can drink any alcoholic beverage.

USA You can perform your daily prayers even at US military (source VOA)
UZB Can you? (even at any public office?)

USA You can say you're muslim and you're performing all the prayers anytime, anywhere.
UZB Can you say that you're muslim and you have to go to Friday prayers even at University?

So, how can you classify those Central Asian countries as muslim countries?
I think your classification is not correct.

NOTE I haven't stated my opinion. I've just presented some facts.


Regards,

Sher

[UniversaL]

Assalomu aleykum!

Sherzodbek, I believe you are the only one who is asking me to clarify whether the Central Asian countries are historically mulsim or not!
If you payed attention I said historically, not including the present fact stating that the most part of Central Asian popularity is Islam worshiping.
Historically
<li>because Uzbekistan and other countries are "democratic republics", now more Islam based countries;
<li>because currently, as you mentioned and I agree with you, all muslim values and rules are not followed accordingly;
<li>because to be Islamic country will be the same as to be against USA and other developed countries, which are having troubles (not only because of this) with Irak, Iran, Egypt ...
Anyway, Sherzodbek, I guess it is my fault not to underlie the word historically, and I assure you and other guys next time I will be more attentive.

P.S. For everybody
I am not here to show off with religion fundamentalistic ideas, because the only reason is I DO NOT HAVE and my intention has nothing to do with them.

Best wishes,

UniversaL

[Baggio]

Sher, read carefully what Universal wrote
....why the christian propaganda became so popular these current days in Uzbekistan, Kazagstan and other Central Asian countries, which are historically muslim?....
... historically muslim...
It doesnt describe what`s happening now like in your facts. I think that was the exact point of what Universal wanted to say. From being muslim in past we became the ones you mentioned in your facts. We are losing our history!!! Central Asian countries , especially Uzbekistan, are all HISTORICALLY MUSLIM countries.
And one question to you, guys
How do you think, is Islam in Uzbekistan and US are of the same nature? I know it sounds weird or maybe i couldnt find the exact words to express my idea, but for me the question is are muslims in US believe in God like we do in Uzbekistan? The rules of praying may be the same (they must be!!!) but is what`s on mind of the people is the same? I dont want to divide all muslims of the world it`s already been divided so they`re killing each other (Iran - Iraq , Afganistan , Tadjikistan ). But what I want to say that in my opinion muslims in Uzbekistan have much more belief and hope in God than muslims in US. Think about that...


Cheers! :)

P.S. Dilmi bu diman universitetinda yomon propaganda bo`votti :). O`zinga ehtiyot bo`l.
Ko`rishamiz :).

[Baggio]

ooops dilmi :) :) ... Nu ti telepat yolki palki...bitta narsani bitta vaqtda yozibmiz..:)
Dumayesh kak ya :)
Ladno take care ... ko`rishamiz.. :)

[Sher]

UniversaL & Baggio,

....why the christian propaganda became so popular these current days in Uzbekistan, Kazagstan and other Central Asian countries, which are historically muslim?....

OK, then my message was the answer to your question ;)

BTW, I didn't ask to clarify whether those countries were historically muslim ones. I prepared for ma'naviyat well enough not to ask such questions ;)

I wrote about the current situation. Sorry, for the confusion.

So, what do you think about the current situation?


Take care,

Sher

[observer]

Uzbekistan is not a Muslim country! It is a democratic country (we are getting there). It is a country with a muslim society. Muslim society and Muslim country are different terms. You can critisize my wording, it is your business. Thank you for your attention.

[Baggio]

Observer, your point is exactly right. As I understand you , you are talking about Islamic states. You know, in fact there are only few Islamic (!!!) states
in the world although many countries have Islamic society. As far as i remember there are only three of them (I might be wrong). I can count only these
Islamic Republic of Iran ( Jomhuri-ye Eslami-ye Iran )
Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Islamic State of Afghanistan (Dowlat-e Eslami-ye Afghanestan - although this state refers to the self-proclaimed Taliban government which is not accepted by the rest of the world). Check it at www.odci.gov
From your point of view I can count only three of such states. What about others?
Other states like Saudi Arabia and other arabic countries are governed according to Islamic Law (shariat) or their legislative system is based on Islamic Law but they didn`t proclaim themselves as Islamic State!!! (Our legislative system also took many things from fundamentals of Islamic Law). But in fact, some of them have almost a 100% Islamic society (like Saudi Arabia). So it is not difficult to confuse whether country is an Islamic state or a country with Islamic society.

Cheers! :)

P.S. I like the way we are arguing in this MB especially about such topics as Religion. It shows that UMID students have their own opinion about Islam or Christianity.

[Afandi]

Salom!,
I have been following this discussion for a while and found very interesting suggestions and opinions. Now I live among christians and that is why I know them better than I did before.
I was really interested in the link between development and religion and made a survey among christian students an asked them about their opinions to this question. I had some interesting answers.
Firstly, they do not think particular religious belief could be precondition for economic growth. The majority of business people are not even avid followers of their faith they are "christians" only during Xmas lunch and on Sunday prayings.
Secondly, they think that religion should be flexible (In fact it became so flexible, that in some new churches they play guitars and other musical instruments just to attract youth, because young people like music. In other words religion became a sort of business, churches offer what people demand) They have so many different interpretations of bible. In the place where I live there are at least 7-8 different churches. There were attempts to open new churches for homosexuals, can you imagine special mosques for gays, or imam thinging qoran in pop style? The way the opinions of old people are also important. I asked a gentleman of eighties this question concerning vast expansion and diversification in christianity. He told me a story which happened to him, once he visited a hospital and in the process of filling forms a nurse asked him which religion he pursues, he was puzzled for a while than answered Abrahamian (not sure about spelling)He said so beacuse there were so many kinds of churches an so many different teachings.
On the other hand these countries provide very convinient and friendly condition for other believes as well. For instance, they never surve ham to muslims, they provide time for prayings, in my university it has specally allocated separate room for muslims to pray, you can freely discuss any religion you like. The Christian Union spends huge omes of money to organize all kinds of meetings for non christians as well as christians. Noticeboards, in the university, are full with all sorts of religious "propaganda". there is in fact a competition between churches and other religions sects.
I cannot say that the same equal conditions are provided in our country, in many cases public authorities are more friendly to other religious sects then to Islam.
People are afraid to learn the religion and do not have pertinent literature to learn. I think this leads to religious ignorance and all sorts of fundementalistic tachings.
thanks
afandi

[tolerant]

Just want give my views about some points in this discussion,

Sher, you asked several questions with can! My answer to all these questions is YES, YOU CAN.
But sometimes you may not. I think it depends on the person him-/herself. I call these problems as "technical problems".

As for USA or Europe they are tolerant to Muslims but I am quite sure it is up to some point.
France is already got worried when it found out some of top officials are (maybe were already)
to be practicing muslims. They started to take harsh actions towards some leaders of islamic communities last year. I am sure you also understand US or European countries will never allow its people to become muslims by their own will. they just treat muslims there like minorities. These countries attitude is, of course it is not a good example, like they treat homosexuals or lesbians as some kind of minorities. Don't believe US government actions; there are over 6 million of Muslims in US and they need votes of these people - muslims are very participative in elections. This is what they want, to tell you in general.

Baggio, I thought there are no islamic states presently in the world. But you say there are and the # of them is 3. It is an interesting argument anyhow.

Observer, I like what you said. Just want also add that there is no also such a thing as Muslim culture. Even this may be a bit different topic it is somehow related to what we are discussing here and to what again Baggio was doubting about Muslims in US and backhome. In this sense, there are western, eastern and so on cultures in general.But there is no Muslim culture, christian culture or things like that. Instead, we can talk about Muslim Values, christian values or western values, eastern values, etc. Baggio I think your doubt (shubha) was caused from that you didn't consider this point. The product of American Culture + Islamic Faith doesn't have to be equal to Uzbek Culture + Islamic Faith. What matters is only Faith. And one more I think as a Muslim you MAY NOT doubt about your Muslim brothers and sisters. I think it leads then to fitna.

And the last but not the least point I would agree with Observer in using the term Muslim Society. I would use it to discribe the people of Uzbekistan for example. But in case of Kirghistan or especially Kazakhstan I would be careful not to mislead later the users of my information. Kazakhstan has a lot of non-Muslim society "elements"-russians.

Respectfully

[UniversaL]

Assalomu aleykum!

Till now there have been various ways of considering the question about the Christian influence in Central Asia.
Some of you even compared the religious environment of those countries you are currently studing in and the one of Uzbekistan to show a huge differences but, unfortunately, not the answer; at least may be those are the future steps that the Uzbekistan government should consider to deal with religion issues...
Anyway, I appreciate your replies supported with your experiences, though I could also write the same stories with not only Christian guys who are free with their religious believes and who have enough oportunities (if not more then...) satisfy their "needs". And after all could I say that this was the solution for the religion concealed confrontations for the democracy at last. NO, of course it is not, because of the discrepancies among The Central Asian and other Western Countries, that are economically stable and which have not even close to ours problems.
__________________________________________________ ___

[SIZE=2]Finally about Islam and Christianity (as they are two dominant and, I can state, hostile religions at some extent)in our region. I believe I am not the only one who thinks that Islam will remain as the outweigh and ascending belief while the second one will undoubtedly has its one niche in these Central Asian countries.[SIZE=2]

With best wishes,
UniversaL

[UniversaL]

Salom Baha, san bilan manim fikrlarim bir-biriga ohshash bolib qolgani shunchaki tasaduf emasdir deb ouylayman :)...
Nima bolganda ham bolla bizani bilib-turib shunday gaplarni yozishgan deb oylashmaydi, ishonchim komil.


Ozini ihtyot qil,
Dilmi
P.S. Ha, Baha, tushunganingdek bizlar bu yerda boshqa din vakillari bilan hohlimizami yoqmi "gaplashishga" togri kelvotti. Ishqilib ohiri bahay bolsin devoman-de ;).

[observer]

To Baggio

I didn't say that Islamic country is one that has the word "Islamic" in its name. Read your own words "From your point of view I can count only three of such states. What about others? Other states like Saudi Arabia and other arabic countries are governed according to Islamic Law (shariat) or their legislative system is based on Islamic Law but they didn`t proclaim themselves as Islamic State!!!"

see what i am saying? I am not sure if countries like Saudi Arabia have not indeed proclaimed themselves an "Islamic State", but they are governed according to Shariat!! It is an Islamic State, but not Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan is not governed by Shariat, hence, it is not an islamic State. Again, it is Muslim society but not Muslim State in Uzbekistan. In constitution it says that there is a separation of church and government. That makes clear again that Uzbekistan is not a Muslim State. I hope you it will clarify my points. No personal things!!!
To make it more clear, when we talk about the "State" we talk about its political system and legislation. When we talk about society in general, we mean it social and cultural system. Muslim state and muslim society are different in their meaning. Thank you for your attention.

[Baggio]

To observer Like I said it is not difficult to confuse whether country is an Islamic state or country with Islamic society. After you had mentioned that State refers to its political system and legislation (as it does) I decided to check whether Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state or not. Look what I`ve found
"The Basic System of Government states The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an Arab Islamic state of total sovereignty. Islam is its religion and its constitution is the Holy Book of God (the Qur'an) and the Sunna of His Prophet, peace be upon Him.......As Saudi Arabia is an Islamic state, all law is based on the Holy Qur'an. It is called Sharia law and governs both criminal and civil cases." (http//www.arab.net/saudi/govt/sa_national.html)
So I was wrong ,my bad, I had to check before I said. I think I was confused by the official names of the states. But anyway, what I meant is there so many countries with Islamic societies but only few of them are Islamic states.Our country is in the same situation. But what is interesting, a country with Islamic society will be often "treated" as an Islamic state by other countries. I mean that in perception of the other nations this state will be viewed as a state with priority of Islamic society. That`s why like Sanatulla mentioned "LEADERS OF WESTERN COUNTRIES SEND CONGRATULATIONS TO THE NAME OF THE PRESIDENT ON THE EVE OF "KURBAN HAYIT" NOT ON THE EVE OF "CHRISTMAS".
From this logic I can say that IT`S NOT NECESSARILY TO BE AN ISLAMIC STATE TO HAVE A ' FREE' , PURE RELIGION. We can freely follow the religion in our state. Another question is why it is not free (or perceived to be prohibited!!!) for all now.


Cheers!:)