Corruption ranking statistics

[Freestyler]

The 2001 Corruption Perceptions Index (http://www.gwdg.de/~uwvw/icr.htm)

Udivlyayet, chto Uzbekistan na odnom urovne s Kazakstanom i v boleye luchshey situacii, chem Rossiya

[referee]

Uzb is in better position than Russia simply because this org-ns don't have enough access to and/or expertise of Uzb...

[stud]

Udivlyayet, chto Uzbekistan na odnom urovne s Kazakstanom i v boleye luchshey situacii, chem Rossiya

there is nothing bad if UZ is better positioned then Russia in Corruption Perceptions Index.


nekotorie stradayut komplexami nepolnotsennostey, chto ih udivlyaet Uzb po kakim-to pokazatelyam nahoditsya v boleye luchshey situatsii, chem Rossiya


Uzb is in better position than Russia simply because this org-ns don't have enough access to and/or expertise of Uzb...

where do you get such in info? are you sure, that such organizations do have enough access to russia? have you researched that area, that you posess more knowledge of the problem, then Transparency International ?

[refere]

stud (May 11, 2002 08:08):
where do you get such in info? are you sure, that such organizations do have enough access to russia? have you researched that area, that you posess more knowledge of the problem, then Transparency International ?

from my experience. Yes, I didn't say that they have free access to Russia full stop; I am sure that they have more access in Russia than in Uzb, prove me wrong. I have not researched that area specifically but I had a talk with a specialist who worked with Transperency Int. in regard to their analytical methodology, and that gives me more grounds to express myself than you think...

[xix]

dokazal nazivayetsya... :D

[referee]

xix (May 13, 2002 01:44):
dokazal nazivayetsya... :D


whatever...

[tokiec]

privet,

horoshiy link, ya mnogo chego raspechatal, pochitayu na dosuge.

[Freestyler]

Gore-psihoanalitiku, to bish' <stud>u:

Vo-pervih:
there is nothing bad if UZ is better positioned then Russia in Corruption Perceptions Index.
A razve kot-to govoril chto eto ploho?!?!?!? Yedinstvennoye, k chemu mojno predyavlyat' pretenzii, tak eto to, chto statistika mojet bit' ne dostovernoy (naprimer, hotya bi po prichine ukazannoy <referee>)

Vo-vtorih, tebe mereshetsya, chto nekotoriye, yakobi, zdes' imeyut kompleks nepolnocennosti tol'ko potomu, chto u tebya yavno nabludayetsya maniya velichiya...
Chto j, kak govoritysa: U vseh bivayet.

P.S.: No ne u vseh prohodit ;)

[stud]

refere (May 12, 2002 05:16):
referee (May 11, 2002 07:09):
Uzb is in better position than Russia simply because this org-ns don't have enough access to and/or expertise of Uzb...
stud (May 11, 2002 08:08):
where do you get such in info? are you sure, that such organizations do have enough access to russia? have you researched that area, that you posess more knowledge of the problem, then Transparency International ?

from my experience. Yes, I didn't say that they have free access to Russia full stop; I am sure that they have more access in Russia than in Uzb, prove me wrong. I have not researched that area specifically but I had a talk with a specialist who worked with Transperency Int. in regard to their analytical methodology, and that gives me more grounds to express myself than you think...

refere, referee or whatever,

first you bring your experience as an argument for what you've written, than you say you've not researched this area. :D

As for a specialist, you had a talk with - I can say more, me too had talks with colleges who worked with Transparency International, and I do have more grounds to believe them and their data then you and your groundless arguments in this topic.

[referee]

stud (May 15, 2002 16:14):
refere (May 12, 2002 05:16):
referee (May 11, 2002 07:09):
Uzb is in better position than Russia simply because this org-ns don't have enough access to and/or expertise of Uzb...
stud (May 11, 2002 08:08):
where do you get such in info? are you sure, that such organizations do have enough access to russia? have you researched that area, that you posess more knowledge of the problem, then Transparency International ?

from my experience. Yes, I didn't say that they have free access to Russia full stop; I am sure that they have more access in Russia than in Uzb, prove me wrong. I have not researched that area specifically but I had a talk with a specialist who worked with Transperency Int. in regard to their analytical methodology, and that gives me more grounds to express myself than you think...

refere, referee or whatever,

first you bring your experience as an argument for what you've written, than you say you've not researched this area. :D

As for a specialist, you had a talk with - I can say more, me too had talks with colleges who worked with Transparency International, and I do have more grounds to believe them and their data then you and your groundless arguments in this topic.

For those who are not easy to conceive things - I am not gonna waste my time to prove that I have enough expertise to express myself on a topic(s), neither I care if you have any intelligence on the issue! I say so because for some people here the world is built on black and white colours and it will take a hell of my time to prove that other colours are also out there.....

[studie]

referee (May 16, 2002 11:30):

...I say so because for some people here the world is built on black and white colours and it will take a hell of my time to prove that other colours are also out there.....

well, if one claims something he should bring valid arguments for claims made, if one cannot do it, it's no good to waste his and others' time. As it was implied above one should just accept that other opinions may be valid, and noone can claim only what he says is correct - there are other colours as well.

[aaa]

a

[referee]

studie (May 16, 2002 18:33):
referee (May 16, 2002 11:30):

...I say so because for some people here the world is built on black and white colours and it will take a hell of my time to prove that other colours are also out there.....

well, if one claims something he should bring valid arguments for claims made, if one cannot do it, it's no good to waste his and others' time. As it was implied above one should just accept that other opinions may be valid, and noone can claim only what he says is correct - there are other colours as well.


here we go- that's what I meant!

1) If one claims that the other person's views are not valid that is also his job (!) to disprove the point by some evidence. You can't expect me to work on proving my point always when you have some doubts - you bring some concrete counter-arguments and I'll either agree or disagree with those.


2)" if one claims something he should bring valid arguments for claims made, if one cannot do it, it's no good to waste his and others' time."
- have you brought forward any evidence yourself apart just finger-pointing?!

3) "As it was implied above one should just accept that other opinions may be valid"
- have I ever claimed that my view and only my view is always valid? Have I said that other opinions are not valid? Why is it when I express my opinion people think that I ignore other people's opinions? I think that is what you may have thought not me!! You, and many others, percieve an individual's opinion as a grand ideology - I am not 'papa' so you can take my views in a more relaxed fashion!

[Freestyler]

Excerpt form General's post:

O'rtacha yillik daromad
O'zbekiston - $360
Armaniston - $520
Ozarbayjon - $600
Ukraina - $700
Turkmaniston - $750
Qozog'iston - $1260
Rossiya - $1660
va hokazo...

Bizdan pastda faqat Tojikiston va Qirg'iziston turibdi - $180 va $270. (World Bank).


A kak tebe takaya vot statistika, <stud>? Kakimi otmazkami ti teper' budesh nam mozgi pudrit'?

(Kstati, boldface - special'no dlya tebya, chtobi mimo glaz tvoih ne probejalo)

[stud]

referee (May 17, 2002 04:03):

here we go- that's what I meant!

1) If one claims that the other person's views are not valid that is also his job (!) to disprove the point by some evidence. You can't expect me to work on proving my point always when you have some doubts - you bring some concrete counter-arguments and I'll either agree or disagree with those.


the same approuch do I use here - logic states, there are more grounds to believe Transparency International (TI) then a forum user, who never researched this area. Just a talk with a specialist who worked with TI IMHO cannot be viewed as valid argument to claim TI data is inaccurate.



2)" if one claims something he should bring valid arguments for claims made, if one cannot do it, it's no good to waste his and others' time."
- have you brought forward any evidence yourself apart just finger-pointing?!

see above, how can you have a better expertise then TI when you have no practical knowledge in this field? that was actually the question.


3) "As it was implied above one should just accept that other opinions may be valid"
- have I ever claimed that my view and only my view is always valid? Have I said that other opinions are not valid? Why is it when I express my opinion people think that I ignore other people's opinions? I think that is what you may have thought not me!! You, and many others, percieve an individual's opinion as a grand ideology - I am not 'papa' so you can take my views in a more relaxed fashion!

you doubt about accuracy of TI without bringing any valid arguments and claim your view to be true, that's what I doubt and that's what I point out.

[stud]

Freestyler (May 17, 2002 07:21):
Excerpt form General's post:

O'rtacha yillik daromad
O'zbekiston - $360
Armaniston - $520
Ozarbayjon - $600
Ukraina - $700
Turkmaniston - $750
Qozog'iston - $1260
Rossiya - $1660
va hokazo...

Bizdan pastda faqat Tojikiston va Qirg'iziston turibdi - $180 va $270. (World Bank).


A kak tebe takaya vot statistika, <stud>? Kakimi otmazkami ti teper' budesh nam mozgi pudrit'?

(Kstati, boldface - special'no dlya tebya, chtobi mimo glaz tvoih ne probejalo)


nu kadr Freestyler,

prichem tut "o'rtacha yillik daromad" ??
kakoe otnosheniya eto imeet k Corruption ranking statistics ?? krisha poehala? :)

potom kto takoy general i otkuda vse eti dannie?

snova prihozhu k mneniyu, chto u tebya komplexi - hochesh ubedit Uzbekistan ne mozhet bit luchshe drugih, po drugomu trudno ponyat tvoy message.

udachi :)

[referee]

stud (May 17, 2002 16:53):
referee (May 17, 2002 04:03):

here we go- that's what I meant!

1) If one claims that the other person's views are not valid that is also his job (!) to disprove the point by some evidence. You can't expect me to work on proving my point always when you have some doubts - you bring some concrete counter-arguments and I'll either agree or disagree with those.


the same approuch do I use here - logic states, there are more grounds to believe Transparency International (TI) then a forum user, who never researched this area. Just a talk with a specialist who worked with TI IMHO cannot be viewed as valid argument to claim TI data is inaccurate.



2)" if one claims something he should bring valid arguments for claims made, if one cannot do it, it's no good to waste his and others' time."
- have you brought forward any evidence yourself apart just finger-pointing?!

see above, how can you have a better expertise then TI when you have no practical knowledge in this field? that was actually the question.


3) "As it was implied above one should just accept that other opinions may be valid"
- have I ever claimed that my view and only my view is always valid? Have I said that other opinions are not valid? Why is it when I express my opinion people think that I ignore other people's opinions? I think that is what you may have thought not me!! You, and many others, percieve an individual's opinion as a grand ideology - I am not 'papa' so you can take my views in a more relaxed fashion!

you doubt about accuracy of TI without bringing any valid arguments and claim your view to be true, that's what I doubt and that's what I point out.

------------------------------------------------------------
You claim that you value TI expertise better than mine, fair enough - I don't have any problems with that...

My point though wasn't to claim that I know better than IT, but (!) to state that TI's methods of analysis are not adequate in regard to the FSU. Just have a look at their sources, whom they interview, and what questions they ask, and then apply this framework into Uzb societal environment. http://www.gwdg.de/~uwvw/icr.htm
If you'd claim that such methodology of IT can truely reflect the reality of Uzb then I will not even comment - some things are better left as they are....

[on_duty]

blah blah blah.... sdayotsya mne shto oba protivostoyashih lagerya ne lisheni komplexov. odni uvereni shto Uzb sux big time, a drugoy vsegda vidit tolko horoshie storoni, i otricaet vsyo ostalnoe ob Uzb.

the true situation is somewhere between these two extremes, with large skewness towards first opinion.

regarding this particular topic: porahorlik qonimizda bor, tirichilikning aybi yoq i vaabshe bu o'zbeychili, obod yurtimizning korruptsiya boyicha Rossiya kabi davlatlardan ortda qolishimiz bu pazor!!! :)

peace

[referee]

on_duty (May 19, 2002 02:25):
odni uvereni shto Uzb sux big timepeace

I hope I don't seem to argue that Uzb sux big time full stop but it truely sux when it comes to corruption

[tokiec]

i pravil`no sdelaesh` referee, nafik vremya teryat` snim

koroche vot chto ya dumayu: kak ya uje govoril, ya raspechatal mnogo chego, i pochital. popalas` mne v ruki odna rabota pro: How corruption affects public welfare. napisana ekonomistami i v osnovnom tam ssilki na raboti drugih ekonomistav. mne ochen` ponravilas` odna idea, esli hotite napechatayu doslovno, nov vot chto tam govoritsya:

v bol`shinstve sluchaev korrupciya (chitay vzyatochnichestvo) poluchaet shirokoye rasprostroeneniye tam gde zakoni slishkom obramenitel`ni, i byurakraticheskiy apparat slishkom gromozdok. a korrupciya vo mnogom oblgchaet ekonomicheskiye processi uskoryaya ih hod.
vot ishodya iz etoy tochki zreniya , drugoy avtor govorit chto ingoda korrupciya prosto neobhodima dlya ekonomiki.
no! neobhodimo podcherknut` chto korrupciya presleduyet svoi celi, a ne celi obshestva. chto chrevato posledstviyami.

a teper` skajite mne legko li u nas imet`(to own) firmu? nichego podobnogo! esli eta dostatochno dohodnaya, to ego ochen` skoro prikroyut, poka ne naydyosh krishu!

da eshyo, nado radovat`sya chto tam nam dali ocenku 4 za chistotu, chto bilo bi esli bilo 0? ??? navernyaka mi etu visokuyu ocenku poluchili blagodarya imenno otsutsvuya dostupa k takomu rodu informaciyam.

.....

blin slishkom horoshiy ya chelovek! hotel napisat` gadost` no reshil ne delat` etogo - teper` izo rta pudet ploho pahnut`....

[Freestyler]

2 stud:

prichem tut "o'rtacha yillik daromad" ??
kakoe otnosheniya eto imeet k Corruption ranking statistics ?? krisha poehala?

potom kto takoy general i otkuda vse eti dannie?

snova prihozhu k mneniyu, chto u tebya komplexi - hochesh ubedit Uzbekistan ne mozhet bit luchshe drugih, po drugomu trudno ponyat tvoy message.

Krisha u menya na meste, spasibo za bespokoystvo (znayu - ne za chto ;) )

O'rtacha yillik daromad k tomu, drugjon, chto eta statistika pokazivayet situaciyu del v Uzbekistane namnogo akkuratney, chem tvoi pohvali i diffirambi nashemu genial'nomu pravitel'stvu i yego "bezuprechnoy" statistike...
(imeya opit praktiki v GosKomImushestve, znayu kak tam risuyut statistiku, na kakiye uhishreniya idut lish' bi im ne vletelo sverha za nevipolneniya planov)

Kakaya raznica kto takoy General? Ti kak vsegda ne na to obrashayesh' vnimaniye. Nu nichego, tebe delayu skidku ;). Ubejdat' tebya v tom, chto Uzbekistan, myagko govorya, kak goliy korol' iz izvestnoy skazki, mne pojaluy i v samom dele nezachem. Verdict o tebe ya uje vidvinul, no, kak govoritsya, sdelat' popitku menya zastavlyayet klyatva Gippokrata...

Bivay...

[stud]

Freestyler (May 21, 2002 11:15):

Krisha u menya na meste, spasibo za bespokoystvo (znayu - ne za chto ;) )

O'rtacha yillik daromad k tomu, drugjon, chto eta statistika pokazivayet situaciyu del v Uzbekistane namnogo akkuratney, chem tvoi pohvali i diffirambi nashemu genial'nomu pravitel'stvu i yego "bezuprechnoy" statistike...
(imeya opit praktiki v GosKomImushestve, znayu kak tam risuyut statistiku, na kakiye uhishreniya idut lish' bi im ne vletelo sverha za nevipolneniya planov)

Kakaya raznica kto takoy General? Ti kak vsegda ne na to obrashayesh' vnimaniye. Nu nichego, tebe delayu skidku ;). Ubejdat' tebya v tom, chto Uzbekistan, myagko govorya, kak goliy korol' iz izvestnoy skazki, mne pojaluy i v samom dele nezachem. Verdict o tebe ya uje vidvinul, no, kak govoritsya, sdelat' popitku menya zastavlyayet klyatva Gippokrata...

Bivay...

Freestyler, come one, don't confuse things, the discussion is about "Corruption ranking statistics" - full stop :)

some claimed here, that data from Transparency International is not reliable in case of Uzbekistan. Let's assume your doubts about accuracy of TI data is grounded (even though you could not bring any valid argument for your words) and data do not reflect real picture of corruprion in UZ. Even in this case you can not simply say, "well UZ is unfairly well-ranked, the data are wrong". As you know there are 2 sides of a coin; inaccurate data do not necessarily mean that actual corrution ranking is worse then one of TI, but in fact the actual data can be better then those of TI as well.

IMHO TI reflects real state of thing more or less, I even tend to think the date should have been slightly better then they are shown in ratings. As you know there is a risk, that some TI employees had prejeduce calculating data on UZ. There are a lot of cases, where you see groundless negative attitude to UZ, see eg - referee's posts (one has no practical knowledge in this field, but claims TI's data regarding UZ are wrong, UZ should be placed much lower in ranking etc.).

[U.B]

Hey Stud bratan, ti mojesh hotya by dlya menya misli svoi na uzbekskom rodnom yazike viskazivat, nu mojet na russkom. :)

A tak skaji mne budesh li vzyatochnikom so vremenem :) ?