To Stud, Luck and Nancy

[Pax]

Dragoman=Pax

Hi guys!

I replied some of your posting at "Islom va uning tushunchasi" but seems that you simply don't see them. I would like to hear from you your ideas, otherwise it seems I wrote all the stuff all for nothing.

Best regards!

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Hello there,
Thanks for the message. Indeed your arguments are valid. But we are not in the position of discussing Evolution Theory at the intellectual and scholastic level. There are many theories in the world with loopholes, and evolution is one of them. The more the theory is refined, the more accurate we become in our "speculations" about our origin. Personally, I do believe whatever is said in the Quraan, and recently got a good lesson from somebody. I have no doubt in my deen, so I do not have to worry about the "proof"s which are always imperfect. God says He created Adam from the dust/clay, and Eve from his rib. I do believe in dat but do not ask how it happened, and what it really means. Beyond this, it is just specualtion.

Cheers, :)

[Pax]

Lucky (Life is Like a Strike) (Jul 24, 2002 09:33):
Hello there,
Thanks for the message. Indeed your arguments are valid. But we are not in the position of discussing Evolution Theory at the intellectual and scholastic level. There are many theories in the world with loopholes, and evolution is one of them. The more the theory is refined, the more accurate we become in our "speculations" about our origin. Personally, I do believe whatever is said in the Quraan, and recently got a good lesson from somebody. I have no doubt in my deen, so I do not have to worry about the "proof"s which are always imperfect. God says He created Adam from the dust/clay, and Eve from his rib. I do believe in dat but do not ask how it happened, and what it really means. Beyond this, it is just specualtion.

Cheers, :)

Well, true, to argue that we were created in this or that way, is nothing more than speculation. But, as I remember you said "the only valid explanation of our existence" about the evolution theory. And against this I protested. I personally agree that evelotion really might have taken place, and it's a speculation. But there's a tendency of interpreting all our social reality according to this theory. You know to a question "why do people need a religion?" a darwinist would say " well, our ancestors' lives were insecure, they constantly felt that they need to be protected by Supreem Forces... so, modern man's desposition toward religion lies in the remnants of those premordial sensations."
What I am against, is making the theory an apriori truth.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

This is my previous post in Abdulloh's discussion:


Juda qiziqde Nietzchening osha fikrlarini bir ikki yillar oldin adashib oqib qoluvdim yaqin yaqinlargacha nima u-n osha pikrlarga kegan ekan bu odam deb hayron qoluvdim. Yaqinda, osha savolimga quyidagi javobni bu masalada mutaxassis kishidan eshitdim: Nasroniylar ilm fan taraqqiyoti tufayli (Oz'lari dindor nasoro bo'lgan Newton, Kepler, Galileyo Galileyning xizmatlari bu masalada juda katta bolishgan) Katolik Cherkovi o'rnatgan dogmani ilmiy jihatdan rad eta bilgani wa Iyso haqidagi har xil uydirma ertak wa hangomalarning ilmiy wa tarixiy jihatdan assosiz ekanligi ayniqsa "Uchlik" tushunchasining 4 asrda qabul qilinganiligining isboti wa Nasroniy dininig ikkinchi asrgacha mustaqil din bo'lmay wa yahudiylik dinining bir tarmog'i ekanligi isbotlangandan song Nasroniy Dinidagi Ota Xudoning (God the Father) ozi mawjud wa mawjud emasligi tog'risidagi fikr wa tortishuvlar Xudoni oldiga chiqarib qoya qoldi [yani Xudo aslida primitiv insonning tabit qonunlarini tushunmaganligi tufayli oz ongida yaratgan pigmentatsiyasi wa inson oz tushunmagan qonunlariga ilohiy sifat berishi natijasida Xudoni ozi yaratgan degan fikrlar paydo boldi. wa bu primitiv inson oz "aql qobig'i"dan (dogmadan) qutulganidan song, Xudoni ham oldirdi qoydi degan fikrlar.] Ushbu falsafadagi revolutsion fiklralarni oqib yurgan Darwin alabatta bu falsafani ilmiy jihardan isbotlab bermoqchi boladi, yani u insonning yaratilishidagi tsenariyadan Xudoni olib qoyib qayta bir ertak yozishni hohlab qoladi. Demak evolution nazariyasi hali ilmiy bir talqin berilmasdan oldin dunyoga asossiz wujudga kelgan ekan !!!! Albatta bugungi kunda, Darwinning "Natural Selection" sawsatasiga "neo-evolutionist" ning ozlari ham ishonishmaydi. Mikrobiologiyadagi ulkan ilmiy yutuqlar bir necha bir ilm fan axli ortasida Evolution nazariyasining ilmiy ekanligiga shunha bn qarashlariga sabab boldi. Albatta, ilm fan axli, bu bn "demak bizni Xudo yaratgan ekan" degan fikrga kelishgani yoq. Buning u-n ularga xudoning qolini izini korsatadigan daliliy ashyolar kk :) !!! Qiziqki, hozirgi kunda ilm fan axli yerda suvning qanday paydo bop qolgaligiga hayron qolib otirishibdi, chunki quyoshga bu qadar yaqin masofada yerning dastlabki formatsiyalanish jarayonida suvning suyuqlik holatida mawjud bolishi mumkin emasdi. Hozirgi birdan bir gipoteza, suv yerga urilgan meteoritlardagi ulkan muzlari tufayli kelib qolganidir. Birinchi hujayra ham qandaydir meteorit tufayli fazodan kelgan emish, chunki mustaqil hayot boshlaydigan biron bir organizmning ozi bolmaganmish wa yoqdan bor bop qolishi mumkin ham emasdir. Judayam qiziq joyi shuki Din wa ilm axli bitta nuqtada bir birlarining fikrlariga qoshilishdi, Dindorlar Odam falakdan tushgan desa, ilm axli birinchi hujayra falakdan tushga deyishmoqda wa dindorlar bu olamni Xudo yaratga desa olimlar, Xudo yaratganin tasdiqlaydigan daliiy asyomiz yog'u ammo etolimizki borliqning boshlanish nuqtasi bor. taxminan bundan 20 mlrd yil oldin cheksiz zichlik wa nol hajmdagi narsadan paydo bop qolgan deyishadi. Negadir Qurondayam Muhammad payg'ambar bilibmi bilmaymi "Oldin butun olamlar wa yer bir kichik massa bolishgan, boshqa joyda tutun holida edi, wa yana boshqa joyda kengayishda dawom etmoqda deb" "waldirab" qoygan. Agar Nobel menga butun boyligini meros qilib ketganda Muhammad payg'ambarga Uch Yulduzlik Nobel mukofotini bergan bolardim manashu "adashib" etib qoygan bashoratlari un (esdan chiqarmaylik u paytda Eisnsteining E=mc^2 darak ham yoq edi wa Hubble ozining Hubble tezligi tushunchasini kashf etmagandi.) Qiziqde, bu dunyoning ozi qiziq, undagi odamlar wa woqeliklar undan ham qiziq. Piching qilib gapirish Woobshe qiziq ;)

Ha etgincha, esimdan chiqayozibdi. "Xudo Yoq" dib jar solib evolution nazariyasi wa baloyi battarlarni rokach qilib korsatvotganlarning kopchiligini ham diniy mutaassibliardan parqi yoq. Diniy mutaassiblar kabi bular ham darwin wa ideologiyaga (mutaasiblar aqidaga) kor korana ishonishadi. Hatto ularning ozlari ham Dawrwinning asarlarini oqib ilmiy, mantiqiy wa estetik jihatdan analiz qip chiqishmagan. Agar musulmonni mot qilay desangiz, Bukhariyda paloncha hadisda shunday degan desaiz tamom. Bularga paloncha Garvarddan shunday debdi deng, tamom qip qizil yol'g'on bosayam shappa ishonishadi qoyishadi, "daje" Bukhariydan statusi baland ularni, u Garvarddan ekan, "Garvardlilar hato ham qimiydi yolgonam gapirmiydi" dib, Musulmon Xudoga qandoy ishonsa ular ham kor korona shunday ishonishadiki ba'zan bazilarining bu qadar kalta fafmliklaridan yoqangni ushlab qolasan kishi. Diniy mutaassiblardan bularning parqi yoq, ikkovoiyam ko-korona ishonishadi, wa "Paqat man to'g'ri gapiraman, qolgan hamma no'tog'ri" deb ozlarini aldab yurishadi. Birovni eshitishga ikkalasining ham toqati yoq, birini boshini urib yoray deydimiyay, shu umkon bosa biri birining koziga chop tiqib olishsada, kegin ozining qilgan ishidan kun uzog'u xursan bop yurishsa. Bu ikki toifa odamlar doimo birovi din wa boshqasi ilm-fan nomidan gapirishga harakat qilishadiki, ba'zan oylab qolasan, nimabbalo bularga din bn ilm fan meros qolganmikin deb. Qisqasi, chin demokrtatik jamiyatni qurishga bularning ikkalasi ham birdek zararlik birdan bir "solution" ilm wa ma'rifat wa hamda boshqalarining pikrini odob wa hurmat bn eshita bilishni organishdir. Kop aql orgatvorgan bolsam wa bazilarga bilib bilmay tegib ketgan bolsam uzr soriyman.

[Akhee-Abdullah]

Hey Sista, when are we gonna read ur replies :) ??

Cheers, :)

[Pax]

Lucky (Life is Like a Strike) (Jul 26, 2002 09:28):
Hey Sista, when are we gonna read ur replies :) ??

Cheers, :)

And I am curious what will say Stud to my posting. Where is he?
He tries to approach the problems like to true (?) intellectuals.